Oh, it's a real problem. People who raised me in the faith have completely abandoned so much of what they taught me for "America is Israel v2" and "God is a Republican" theology. In the process they've embraced and shared lies, accommodated immorality, and completely destroyed their witness. People want to blame "the other" for the demise of the church, but I'm convinced the greatest deduction comes from within. Why love your neighbor when you can just demonize him/her? That's the lesson I've learned from my should be elders.
I left an otherwise good, bible based baptist church because of extreme politics. In the months leading up to the presidential election, the pastor would use almost every Wednesday night to preach about the evil cabal of the elite, George Soros, and why they hate Trump and want him out of the presidency so they can bring communism to America. I got tired of being told what I should believe in regards to politics and left for a more politically neutral, bible believing church.
This is another issue of Christians in politics in America. Most of the pastors who do that, *have taken oaths* that they *will not tell their congregations who to vote for,* this so they can receive the maximum form of tax free status, with absolutely nothing taxable to them, including the pastors' income and housing. Signing that document is *an oath* that they take very lightly, acting like it's something they have to do, and *their oath* not to tell people who to vote for, is a grievous infringement of their rights that they then "have" to find a cagey way to circumvent. But there is a purpose behind requiring that oath. It is so that the political campaigns wouldn't be subsidized by churches, causing them to think they can take over the churches as their own armies and sources of cash. People sometimes think that whatever a "man of God" says is going to be true and they'd better obey them. They don't try to discern for themselves, just do whatever the preacher tells them to do. This is unhealthy for the country, but ruinous for the church. There are a lot more reasons this is not good, but think of how sad and unacceptable it is that so many pastors are willing to lie when they sign the documents, then act like they're heroes when they defy the very oath they took when they signed it. Why don't they care about lying? The Bible does; why don't they?
So, you never heard of Jerzy Popieluszko from Poland right? It's amazing how spoiled Americans are...I think I'm going to stop calling you Americans now.
As someone who grew up evangelical I don't know all the philosophy behind this--I can only say the difference I've seen between my childhood in the evangelical church (late '60s and '70s). When I was a child the church focused on demonstrating a Christlike life through kindness and examples and the sermons were about Jesus and the gospel. They just didn't speak politics. I don't remember ever hearing Billy Graham talk about the things his son does and denigrating huge groups of people like they do now. The change has turned me off so much I just steer clear. I'm done with it.
I feel your pain… it really saddens me because I have family who go to a patriot church is what it’s called and the love of country far surpasses the love for Christ and love for people and winning souls for Christ. I’ve never been there, all I know is they don’t talk about Jesus or how he’s working in their lives. There is much pride, a need to be right and no love. It’s very sad because the fruit of it is not good. Maybe there are born again believers there but this obsession with being right and converting souls to conservatives over Christianity does not work. Only those born again will develop those values. I was very sick recently and those family members didn’t ask how I was, only cared about who I’ll be voting for. It deeply hurts to see that that’s where there heart is. It is far from God. All I ever hear about is who’s running for office at the church and the recitation of the Declaration of Independence. Yes, I love my country too but I literally heard nothing from them about Jesus…. 😰
Times have changed. This is not the same cultural environment as then. So now we just have "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" just love and acceptance with no doctrine, no sin and no condemnation for ungodly behavior. If you fault Franklin for his very simple presentations and very mild statements about the country, I don't think you will be very biblically effective with a weak non-confrontational presentation of the gospel. It appears that when John come on the scene, he was very controversial and condemning as was Jesus. Although Jesus had little interest in the culture [as Christian nationalism is, he was very condemning of unbelievers.
@@bobwood5146 -- Times have changed???? There is nothing new under the sun. The people throwing out "times have changed" have a very sinister agenda. Listen, dude... I could prove within an hour that you have no clue about the genuine WORD of G-D. Psalm 2, Verse 12 -- how do you read it? ... LOL.
Luther’s doctrine of the two kingdoms is fitting here. The church’s role is to preach the gospel, not enforce moralism on the unbelieving as if that will change their hearts (so, a false gospel). The government’s role is to maintain order, ideally under God, but Jesus under Roman rule still wants us to obey the government God put in place so long as it’s within his will, even if we don’t like certain policies (I.e. wearing a mask or paying taxes). Romans 13 was written during persecution. Confusing these roles leads to chaos and a watered down gospel mixed with the law. Jesus is the one who will bring them into harmony when he returns. We literally have one job. Let’s not blow it on getting impatient or misunderstanding the real problem of lawlessness: the human heart.
We also have the responsibility of respecting our authorities...which means that we respect their position, and the terms of that job. We can't blindly accept every decision our government makes, sometimes we have to challenge them, so that no one crosses the moral laws established by God. Not only does this give us a role in supporting and guiding our leaders, it gives us a voice, and can lead a nation to righteousness. Giving leaders unchecked power and never questioning them is just plain dangerous.
@@kates3659 That’s not what I’m saying. Obeying is not the same as never questioning. If we’re commanded to do something against God’s law, we must disobey it. The problem right NOW though is that many Christians think that minor inconveniences and things that go against THEIR personal will is the same as being persecuted. We’ve equated being in a godless culture to being personally attacked even though this has been the early church’s exact situation and they never once complained about not having rights or not having the majority vote or enforcing moralistic laws that yes, protect people, but don’t solve the actual spiritual problem behind it all. One guy even started equating the gospel to being free from government control and tyranny on this earth. That’s a false gospel. We have to separate Enlightenment/revolution values from the gospel because they’re just not biblical. Jeremiah the prophet was persecuted for telling the Israelites to go with the Babylonians into exile. It was the false prophets who were the nationalists. Not everything is as it seems. It’s in the sinful nature to rebel and fight, not submit. That’s why the crowd chose Barabbas the murderer and insurrectionist over Jesus who willingly suffered. We see this pattern over and over again. The truth is, you’re a Christian and Christians suffer. It’s in our contract. Fighting isn’t “brave” or being strong in the Lord. Being strong in the Lord is obeying him regardless of what we fear the outcome is. That includes submitting to a government we know is corrupt wherever it doesn’t conflict with God’s moral laws and simply preaching the gospel. We will not have the luxury of overthrowing what’s unjust this side of heaven. That’s not our job. Our job is to preach the gospel, which is fighting the spirit behind all this mess in the first place. But you can’t have it both ways. In fighting the world LIKE the world, you WILL lose the gospel in the process.
Romans 13 by no means implies that government has authority to define moral good or evil. It is focused exclusively upon their God given role to bear the sword (to arrest and kill) wrongdoers. In the US, it would be to say God gives Executive power to the state to be his wrath. It doesn't say anything about the government's legislative power.
@@Julia29853 I would point to what the church has done historically. Work on an individual level. The early Christians took care of abandoned infants and regularly defied the culture through their good works. They didn’t stage a protest, storm the government buildings, and demand their rights-they just did what was right. When Christians saw their loved ones being killed, they wished them a safe journey to heaven. If we have voting rights, we should use them. If we have positions of influence, we should use them. Again, I’m not saying that focusing on the gospel and participation in politics are mutually exclusive. What I am saying is that the primary function of government isn’t preaching the gospel and the primary function of the church isn’t to enforce laws. We’ve already seen the consequences of both. There may come a day where Christians will have to choose between fighting for their personal rights and obeying Christ. In Revelation, God lays it out for us: those who are supposed to be killed by the sword will be killed by the sword…this calls for patience/endurance. Not an uprising or voting…just quiet patience and acceptance. Ultimately, a lot of this is case by case for individuals. Sometimes the right thing is using politics to do good. Other times it’s entrusting a situation to God’s care because he is the King of all governments and will one day judge them. What should never happen though, is watering down the gospel in the name of our freedom on this earth or thinking that winning in politics fixes the problem. I highly recommend Googling “doctrine of the two kingdoms” for a more thorough explanation.
@@Crym123 1. I never said the government defines morality. 2. Taxes are a part of the law and yet Jesus said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” I’m not saying we can’t criticize laws or use our rights and freedoms. Not at all. Just don’t mix it up with the gospel and the primary purpose of the church. Look up “doctrine of the two kingdoms.” Luther lays it out a lot better than a UA-cam comment
The church is overflowing with apostasy, yet we want to deny what happens after the apostasy and rely on focusing on anything related to politics. WAKE UP! 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Hi, Its not that the church is in apostasy, Christianity is apostate to the new testament, from, really the 2nd century AD, up to when Constantine pulled the bible + paganism together. The rest is history. Christianity's doctrines are antithetical to the new testament, ( one man pastor, Vicar, Roman priest etc,etc,) everything outside of the person of the Messiah Jesus! Christianity has always been the wolf, snake, and the dragon, waiting presently in the shadows, to reemerge, as the final Antichrist religion along with a host of other belief systems!
@@pat2430 Your love of your own country should not blind you to its faults or its sins, or make you unjust or unfair to other nations, or the people within them. It should not make an idol out of your nation. It should not make you proud. Maybe it should make us grieve a little; blessed are them that mourn, right?
There will always be a religion behind the laws and norms that govern us, but Christians seem to be unique in that often, they’d rather have any other religion but their own be the one.
Exactly, im surprised how many "Christians" on here are commenting that they would prefer to live under pagan Nationalism and pagan law instead God's law. The American church is definitely spoiled and blind - any immigrant who has lived under non-christian nationalist rule will finds these comments absurd
I am a Christian; I believe teaching the bible to those that believe is acceptable but holding the world of unbelievers to that standard is unacceptable. The world should be exposed to Christianity, but they should also be free to choose either to accept it or reject it. As a Christian WE are called to live by God's word and spread God's word to the world. But the world is not bound to accepting God's word. It would be better for the world if they did, but they are by no means obligated until such time they receive God's word with conviction.
Do you believe governments should not have laws or just that those laws should be based on something other than godly character? If genecide becomes a matter of public policy (as it had in many cases where collectivism have taken over, from Germany to China), should Christians oppose that policy or should we just let the world be the world?
@@Crym123 In I believe every case in the bible. Where the world perceived to do harm to God's chosen people. They failed except when God allowed them to suffer loss for their pride or rebellion. It is no different today the course we are on is being directed by the authority and sovernity of God. Both believers and non-believers alike we are being developed, refined and filtered for the Kingdom of heaven. All things in this world are temporary. The bible say we are to worship in spirit and in truth. If we worship in tradition and in lies we will not be saved. Look in the book of Daniel how many times the government said to this thing against God or die. And God delivered. If we are afraid of man we have no place in heaven. Life is of God. And eternal life is with God. All death is payment for sin. Even the second death. I don't know if I answered your question but it I think it is where the conversation was going. Let me know if I totally missed it.
@@Crym123 Jesus allowed Rome to be Rome. He didn't advocate for that empire to change their undoubtedly unjust actions. As christians we are to be the light as directed by His Word. We should stand against anything that goes against God's Word but we can't force the world to live as we want them to. God doesn't force them so why should we?
The bible specifically say preach the good news to the world if they will not hear it shake the dust of for feet and leave with them. Do not drag the non believers back with you. Take no prisoners do no harm. They have their reward.
I do think though, we need to remember that only the gospel changes hearts. The law may change behaviors, but resentment will only build and breed rebellion unless people’s hearts also change. Which is one of many reasons why Christ came to die first before coming to judge and reign. Our primary goal is to make disciples. He will enforce and change what we can’t. In short, making laws is good but it’s a band aid to the real problem of sin.
God frowns upon all of humanity because we're all sinners. We're all rebels against Him, every day of our lives. He is going to pour out His wrath on all nations because of that. The only way of escape from that is not any national or political policy, but the rebirth of individuals in saving faith and repentance in Christ.
Sure Christianity teaches people to hate others for their sexuality, skin colour, gender identity, etc., and seeks to rights away from those who not Christian.
@@gusmonster59 If you can provide us the Biblical Text where God commands Christians to hate people based on their sex, gender, economic status, etc. we can probably meet half way.
Christians should not get involved in the worlds politics. Thats a trap. God said pray for your leaders. He told us just to share the gospel. Not force the bible on people who dont even know God. If we all just pray, and do what God says he will do,did,done the rest. Also This world is going to pass away. Its going to get very bad. So we should be trying to live in a way that shows a difference between us and the world. The difference should be christ in us. The cultural norms like racism shouldnt be in the church. The fact that she wasnt aware of Christian nationalism, (white nationalism) to minority groups. Is mind boggling.
"Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34 The idea that Christians shouldn't advocate for Christian policies is contrary to the Bible, and yet I see it espoused by many Christians. But at the same time, we shouldn't get caught up in trying to establish a theocracy. Our focus should be on evangelism and spreading Christian values and ethics, not only on the community level but also on the national level "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.'" John 18:36
@@annieaviles4760 No, Jesus does that when he returns. We were told to go and make disciples of all nations. Imposing Christian laws on unbelieving, unrepentant people is not making disciples, but hypocritical Pharisees. Hearts must change first.
@@Window4503 don’t take the Word of God out of context. Jesus literally prayed for Gods will to be done on earth as in heaven. We are not to sit on the sidelines. This is Gods earth. We are to occupy it with His righteousness.
It's simple there is no salvation through politics or government systems or man's effort to build a utopia here on Earth. Jesus Christ is our only way to Salvation. His Kingdom is what we should be focused on.
Few Americans can ponder the disappearance of states. Adults among them should learn. Europeans understand the disappearance of states, constitutions, empires and currencies, because that happens to them over and over again. I met Bishop Tutu in person helping (mostly) Anglicans destroy South Africa's racist apartheid colonial settler state. We won. We destroyed South Africa's imaginary apartheid racist future. Millions of colonizers lost everything. Bishop Tutu won a Nobel Prize and was promoted to Archbishop. We sometimes call leaders like MLK or Desmond Tutu "civil rights leaders," but that is an error. They are Christian Reverends and Bishops. Their armies are Christians. And they win against great statist evils, where others have tried and failed. I am pretty sure these matters are far too violent, unpleasant, frightening and nuanced for most Americans to ponder, or even for many Christians to ponder. State laws change all the time. States disappear all the time. I also lived in post-Soviet Ukraine under complete state and currency collapse. The Body of Christ, meaning the church, is immortal. Jesus did not bless the peace lovers. He blessed the peacemakers. I don't think most Americans understand any of this. But this is how things are.
As a political refugee that's been through two dictatorships I'll take a "nationalist" Christian who's "afraid" of losing their country over the alternative, a Bolshevik in disguise deranged idiotic "regressive" christian who's never suffered the consequences of their idiotic ideology any day. With that said, it's described in The Bible that the wealth and prosperity and sense of unity and safety that nationalists idealize makes humanity FORGET about God making themselves their own idols by using falsehood in their worshiping and that the end result is the judgement that the Globalist side then brings. The plans to have a one world government are not only described in revelation but attempted throughout every single empire that humanity has known. So the cycle repeats again and again. In modern times Woodrow Wilson started it with the League of Nations, being disrupted by Germany and Japan, it was picked up by the UN, being disrupted by The Cold War and is now in vogue again with the World Economic Forum and the Big Reset,being disrupted by China. Will they make an alliance and finally bring forth the events of Revelations? It seems so, which is why everyone has their feathers ruffled.
Here’s what puzzles me about Right-wing evangelicals, they claim to be confident in their faith and that when they die they’re sure that they will go to heaven. But their whole worldview is based off fear and the idea of some oppressive government that is out to persecute and murder Christians. Even if these supposed superstitions are true. Why even care? If I was a Christian I’d be anxious to die.
As a christian living in India and seeing the rise of hindu nationalism and seeing how scary and destructive it is to harmony and equality, I can tell you how awful it is to see its similarities with christian counterparts in "Christian countries". Whenever a faith system becomes a majority, its followers tend to exert their rights over others but it is sad to see christians do that because we are taught the opposite and not to seek power in this world. Thanks for covering this.
Equality is an illusion, there's only a Hierarchy. You call yourself a Christian but your ideas are those of a liberal woke neo-marxist, not even your own. You don't know the first thing about the history of Europe, The Crusades, what happened AROUND the Crusades, what happened to Central and Eastern Europe countries during Edi: World War II. The Golden Horde, and so on. You wouldn't have seen Christianity reach your country if those Europeans countries wouldn't have been nationalistic at some point and the Crusades happened, you'll be a Muslim instead, the kind that dies at a young age by behading. You don't know how privileged you are, when you can't even tell the difference between genuine nationalism and nazism, which is what you probably are talking about, plenty of them in your country. So blissfully ignorant. It's idiotic to think that a WORLD ORDER of all nations with human defined "equality" is Biblical when you have The Tower of Babel, but is also idiotic to think that if that ever happens on earth is ANYTHING but the unfolding of Revelation, the Anti-Christ and the New World order. It's also idiotic and un-biblical to think that imposing nationalism as an IDOL above God is a good thing. They're BOTH forms of human idolatry but at least nationalism aligns with God's command of having nations separated until Revelation comes to pass.
Spot on Anju. I live across the border from where you come from and here we have problems with Buddhist fundamentalists. I am a Christian and been attacked and vilified many times over and over again by the few Christians in my Country for been a Lesbian. Yes fundamentalists from all religions are equally ignorant and dangerous.
@@streetsdisciple0014 Says the gringo who plays video games all day. I don't have to plan anything, I can just see the effects of Moral Stupidity break things apart as God intended, just like Dietrich Bonhoeffer described about German citizens during the Nazi occupation of Germany. Because despite all those advanced video games you can only see in black and white.
@@einarabelc5 I’ve seen your bombastically inept comments to know your binary thirst for nationalism is anything but grey. Go build yourself a detention day care camp and play the silly game of tribalistic nationalism.
Jesus: "My kingdom is not of this world (aeon)"... Jesus: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sin"... I don't see how this could be "overblown". The gospel, mixed with political control measures, _always_ subverts the gospel to the interests of political power and control, and that slanders God, and makes the gospel seem unreal, whether the merging is on the left, or on the right. It has definitely worked that way in our country. But there is also this: whenever the gospel has _seemed_ merged with political power ("seemed", because God is not conceding His actual gospel to the wills of politicians), people do not feel safe in separating spiritual matters from political ones, to take them both seriously ,on their own, relative merits. It is difficult to think of believing unto salvation, when believing could get you killed, but it might be easier than to see the true gospel, when it is hidden by the demand of power that you appear to submit to their chosen gospel, to prove yourselves the good guys, deserving to live and prosper (although it's only the "Noble Lie" to them). That makes the gospel into a matter of coercion, even though anyone who'd do that, doesn't care about the salvation of any souls. We cannot serve two masters, not even both our salvation, through faith in Jesus, and saving our own skin from persecution. So the demands of politics, that we knuckle under to their power, and say that we believe, makes it very hard to think clearly about the salvation of our souls. The coercion slanders God, as if He is in agreement with it, which He is not, but it is very hard to see this. It is possible to see it, because the Holy Spirit is drawing all men (all people) unto Jesus, but the pressures of living under coercion make this very hard to see. I don't know how anyone who takes the gospel, and the salvation of souls, seriously, can approve of the churches coming under political control, no matter how nicely the politicians _pretend_ to love Jesus. It's just a terrible stumbling block to put people under: God is simultaneously righteous, holy and good (the Bible and the Holy Spirit affirm this), and there is this evil, corrupt, cruel, devilish thing, right next to it, pretending to be the same thing, from the will of the same God. The biblical name for something horrible to see like that, is "abomination", and also "blasphemy". We need to pay attention to the matter of the "whore" in Revelation 17 & 18, especially when there are "Kingdom Now!" Dominionists, selling a movement they dare to call "Seven Mountains of Influence" or "...of Culture", in which they say that God wants us to *take over* these seven "mountains" or "spheres" of influence or culture, and "occupy" them. The "whore", the false church in Revelation 17 & 18, _sits on_ seven mountains, and they want us to _"occupy_ the Seven Mountains" of world-ly influence, of which the world is not really sitting there, willing to hand their worldly power over to us. But not to worry, according to 7M, as well as the Latter Rain movement''s "Joels Army" and "the Manifest Sons of God", God commands us to _take over the world_ *for Jesus,* after which, He will eventually show up, to sign off on our work. This departs very radically from what the Bible says, that Jesus will _do this, alone,_ when He returns in the clouds, just as He ascended. And this is interwoven with the very "NAR Apostles" movement, decried in this and other discernment ministries, UNTIL the moment that right wing politics' interests in controlling the evangelicals become threatened, and then, not a word against the heresy is spoken. That is not right, and whoever really believes in Jesus, knows it. So, this doesn't prove that the seven mountains in Revelation are _identical_ to the 7M movement, but it does show that this movement does not care about what Revelation says, and this at a time when the world is looking more and more like the descriptions of just before the Lord returns. If there was ever a time to be careless about sitting on a political seven mountains, this isn't it. So I don't see how any of this could possibly be "overblown", any more than the rest of the spiritual corruption and destruction of our times.
There are several books to read on this topic - Sarah Posner "Unholy" , Katherine Stewart "The Power Worshipers" & Michelle Goldberg "Kingdom Coming" , The Rise of Christian Nationalism.. Most of the research I've done on this besides Goldbergs work are post Trump admin. articles . Thank you for bringing to light the Truth about America not being founded on Christianity.& the falsehood of the Constitution being a Divinely inspired. document.
Great conversation, with on point statements. I love my country and I am proud of its history. But I am a follower of Christ first. The gospel and life in eternity is much more important than politics and the short time here on earth. We are commanded to go out and make disciples, not policies.
We are called to stand with and promote God ways and values too, and that includes the society that we are in. You cannot disconnect your beliefs/morals and politics; that is part of discipleship. God cares about how we vote and the causes we promote
@@inspirationtomoveforward6319 I agree we need to vote and be informed, not to stick our heads in the sand. But in studying the Bible, I realized that God places the rulers for His plan. Read the books of Kings, you will see for yourself. The problem is not politics, but sin. We are not a Christian nation. Yes, we blame politics and policies but look around you, the vast majority either don’t go to church or go to a church based on worship for themselves. We care more about a football game than in Bible study learning to know our God. We care more about people liking us rather than warning them about their wages of their sin. We ignore our own sins. We sit in our phones, or in front of a tv instead of worshipping the one true God. We made idols of ourselves. So yes, our government is evil but we, as His children, need to first repent and obey the one Holy God. If you want change, read the books of Kings and know who our God is.
But the subject at hand is politics, and to say that we aren’t supposed to make policies is incorrect. Read the story of Daniel to get a picture of how policies effect people. Read Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Judges, and the other Old Testament books that deal with law and rules, etc. Can you read those and think that God doesn’t have any thought about what laws a society lives by. Look at history when Hitler was taking over: did it matter how the church voted and how his policies effected peoples lives? Yes, it did! Yes, there are too many people may care more about material things that will pass one day, but there are too many people in the church that promote stuff like what you are saying that lead to no action or the wrong actions being done and more evil happens because of it. Being disciples doesn’t mean we are so heavenly minded that we don’t care about policies and law here on earth.
@@inspirationtomoveforward6319 the first and greatest thing we are asked to do is to love the lord with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbour as ourself Everything else will come from that. Don't recall a verse asking us to stand up and promote God. I think he's quite capable of being who he is without our capitalist promoting efforts. Rather than promoting God's ways and values, live them and you'll promote Him by doing so.
We are also told to teach the nations to obey the laws, even in the OT it’s said that the coast lands await for his Torah or law. But if God’s will is to punish America and have his people inherit what’s left of it I won’t mind letting it go, as much as I don’t want to see people fall with the nation and their false ideologies and religions there’s going to be a whole lot of people that fall
Of course it was, it was chosen to START Globalization and to bring people over so they could listen to The Gospel. What's wrong with that? Is dangerous to be vague because you can fall either left or right.
@@einarabelc5 for what it's worth Globalization started way before America. But I think it is a fair statement to say that the various religious "awakenings" that became huge in the United States had a massive effect on missionary work around the world.
Sorry Alisa but honestly, given the trend of comments here, this video did more harm than good. By being engaged in this conversation while utterly lacking an understanding of Totalitarianism and the suffering caused by Tyranny puts you in no position to talk about Nationalism in the current context of the advancement of Globalization. You've committed the error of hitting everything with the same hammer when you even haven't enunciated the problem accurately. Both of you perhaps inadvertently have confused people and given them an excuse to continue to sit on their laurels and do nothing for The Gospel in the context of the oncoming judgement. Humankind belongs within history, politics is part of that. This was a very narrow focused conversation that assumes a lot of things, like the status quo. Therefore people think making a choice about this is like picking a menu meal. It is not, this is way more serious and it requires someone with a better understanding of things BESIDES theology before theology is applied. Neither you nor Neil were careful enough while doing that. It is not that you were utterly wrong, it's that you weren't precise and through rough enough. You both missed a whole dimension of the problem. This was poorly executed, ill prepared and requires a re-visit. You should start by researching Jordan Peterson and his Maps of Meaning lectures, even his inaccurate Bible Lectures. If there's something that he actually understands right to a certain intellectual degree is Totalitarianism. Neither you nor your professor get that yet. Instead you assumed we will always live in a Democracy without even understanding where that comes from.
There is neither jew nor gentile. But at the same time we still need a national identity to be called a "nation". We as a country no longer have an identity.
I am at a loss for words. It is very sloppy to do a Google search for terms. I took out my large 1990 encyclopedic edition lexicon that probably isn’t perfect, but free of the wokism of today. Nationalism is defined as “devotion to one’s nation, advocacy of national unity or independence.” This fits perfectly with the fact that God created nations to protect against the satanic idea of globalism. No genuine Christian would believe in Christian nationalism. We all simply believe that nations are blessed when they turn to God. We don’t use that as a tool to advance politics. Genesis 18:18, Genesis 35:11, Psalms 67:4, 1 Chronicles 16:24, Isaiah 26:15, Mark 13:10. Nations are important. Most Christians I know that supported Trump recognized that God placed him there, as He does all leaders. To reject that, is to reject truth. We worship God alone and lift up nations that follow Him, as well as encourage those who don’t follow God to not reject Him at their detriment.
You're one of the few smart people in this thread. There are many idiotic woke people who pretend that are Christian, don't know the first thing about World War II (much less Nazis) and vote democrat because it makes them feel good about themselves. Then hide behind Scripture while ignoring the actual patterns described in scripture which you alluded to. Instead of comparing such patterns with the actual events of WWII EAST of Gdasnk Poland, they compare everything nationalistic to Nazism. The poor fools, they couldn't conceive of something like the massacre of Katyn and how Stalin used Germans as an escape goat for his own evil. That's exactly what they subscribe to btw: Nationalism MUST equal Nazism. So if they see a nationalistic Polish person, who's ancestors had to endure 53 years of occupation by both the Germans and the Russians and whose population was exterminated by eliminating all intellectuals, military and opposition up to the point 25% of Poles died during that period, they could never have the courage to admit that those Poles are nationalistic for a reason. I consider them the most deplorable kind of coward, like an Ostrich, living their own lie about how the world really works. I congratulate you by actually committing an act of THINKING. Dietriech Bonhoeffer theory of stupidity, well worth checking out.
My faith in God alone carries me through these challenging days. God commands us to pray for all those in authority. Those in authority now all over the world are wicked and we should be praying for them, repenting as a nation and turning from our wicked ways. Only then will we be blessed. God will accomplish his purposes through every leader. Sometimes it is to chastise us and other times it is to bless us. May God give us the discernment to know the difference. 🙏
it's like this, there are ten commandments, four of which deal with our duty to God and six of which deal with our duy to each other, and whereas the duties to God are matters of individual conscience that should not be regulated by the government (therefore the federal government cannot tell you to worship God or which god to worship) and whereas the government has the duty to regulate our duty to each other, like fighting crime such as murder, theft, etc, it therefore follows that those duties that are matters of conscience and worship that are dealt with under the establishment clause of the first amendment....when we want to reinterpret the first amendment in such a way so that the establishment clause gets modified or removed to promote the church's "right" to control the government, that's Christian Nationalism, which is promoted by Dominion Theology (seven moiuntains mandate) and theonomy (particularly secterian/theological laws should be the law of the country)
Here we have the problem of defamatory "labels." Just like CRT uses the claim of "racism" to shut down the debate, those who callously use the term "Christian Nationalist" also use it to shut down the discussion. Again, you could think of Dr. James Lindsay's definition of CRT. "Call everything racist (Christian Nationalism) until you have the power." My quote may not be exact, but it's very close. Pursuing our rights as endowed by our Creator and enshrined in our Bill of Rights is not Christian Nationalism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, or any other "ia or ism" label. On the contrary, the Bill of Rights is the primary source for what makes the United States different from any other country that has ever existed on the face of the earth. The idea of using "labels" is a small step towards tyranny in order to remove the humanness or the imago Dei of a group, any group, to assert power over them. And it is all about who has the power. Please do not conflate my use of "label" with an individual's identity; as in (ESV) Acts 11:26b, "And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians," or a citizen of the United States is an American. Granted, these are only partial descriptors of the entirety of a person's identity. However, a person's identity must align with reality. As previously mentioned, the Bill of Rights confers our rights as originating from God, not from the government, period. Therefore, these "Rights" are conferred upon every American by God regardless of whether you are a "Christian" or not. And whether you are a Christian or an Atheist, the "Rights" equally apply; you need to be thankful that these "Rights" do not originate with the government because when they originate with the government, the government can take them away.
I had not heard the term “Christian nationalism” before but have been impacted by the idea heavily-especially during the Trump presidency. I was in a deep state of uncertainty and confusion about how politics and laws are to be thought of from a Christian perspective. I’ll have to look more into Neil as I found what he said he very insightful. Thanks for covering this subject!
Whenever people accuse me out Christian Nationalism because of my view on Creationism or some other theological conservative view point, I tell them I don't believe in voting due to 1st Samuel 8, so muh your politics.
I was a Lefty politically most of my adult life, then become a Conservative back in 2010. Conservatism and the culture wars is what led me to an interest in the Bible and Biblical ethics, which led me to surrender to Christ as Lord and Savior in April of 2011. From there, I discovered Apologetics, which just helped reinforce my faith, as it showed me the evidence for it. In my experience, those on the Left are the ones who are putting forth their politics with the most religious fervor, so it's ironic that they use labels like "Christian Nationalism." It's definitely overblown, and is used as a tactic.
Who is more nationalist? 1. A person who wants leniency for people who burned down businesses, looted, locked police officers in a building and set it on fire, and invaded government buildings. 2. A person who wants leniency for people who peacefully filed into the capital (The People's House) and took selfies. 1. The first group threatened citizens across the nation and directly caused death and destruction of livelihoods. 2. The second group interrupted our government but caused no direct death and relatively small destruction of public property. Who is more nationalistic? The person who defends a government building and is outraged that people with personal police were scared and inconvenienced or the person who cares about all individuals impacted by riots (citizen, immigrant, foreign national). David French's outrage over Jan. 6 was far more intense than the outrage of lives like David Dorne who died at the hands of rioters in cities across America. It appears French is and Elitist Nationalist while the people who were against anarchical riots were populists.
It's quite interesting how you minimize the damage caused in Jan 6 to suit your world view To compare a whole summer of riot to a single day even in Jan 6 is also disingenuous The summer riot and looting was wrong Personally I think Jan 6 was much worse because peaceful transfere of power is what gives us a democracy. Without that we lose the country To have an attack on democracy base on a lie is much worse Again the riots in the summer was also very wrong
@@Ashantia35 I am not suggesting Jan 6 was right or good. I am suggesting that the outrage was overblown when you compare what actually happened to the narrative. The transfer of power was never truly threatened. Our lawmakers were scared and inconvenienced. Most people who entered the capital did it for a photo op. There were extremely few weapons. This was not a serious attempt at taking over the government as the crowds were unarmed and literally followed the cordoned area in a single file line. My point is that there is a contingency of Christians who made excuses for the destruction to individuals throughout a summer of destruction but seemed to think Jan. 6 was horrific. I would argue that harsh sentences for little old ladies who took selfies in the capital is far more dangerously nationalistic than harsh sentences for people who murdered innocents and destroyed livelihoods. Why do some Christians look away when injustices are perpetuated on individuals but go on about the "historic" nature of the "insurrection." The capital has been invaded before, as the Supreme Court was attacked during the Kavanaugh hearings. Funny how it was okay to disturb that government proceeding because it was in the name of protecting sacred abortion. My point, I fear the tyrannical style nationalism that will do everything to protect the government while standing by to let cities burn. Hitler didn't care about individual rights. He took them at every turn. He did protect his government with the horrors of imprisonment and death camps. And, are you aware the police let the rioters in? There are videos of the people being waved in. Also, doors had to be released from the inside. People definitely did wrong, but selective prosecutions, lack of law enforcement, and the governments unwillingness to release evidence to the public suggests that either this was preventable or even a set up.
@@springray2323 Both sides did wrong, but I am concerned about the response. The government is taking every opportunity to jail rioters young and old for inconveniencing them. So many people lost their livelihoods and some lost their lives without any justice during that summer. Which kind of nationalism do you fear more?+ The type that will do anything to protect the lawmakers who are not in immediate physical danger (they have guards, bunkers, etc.) against people with flags. + The type who sit by and watch cities burn, making excuses for destruction. Hitler didn't care about individual rights and businesses. He took weapons, Business, and encouraged riots against his own people. He jailed and murdered anyone who threatened his government. That is the kind of nationalism to fear, not the kind with crazy, overzealous unarmed people wrapped in flags and wearing horns breaking into the People's House.
@@eurekahope5310 It's interesting how you continue describe and minimize Jan 6 insurrection To say police let people in indicates to me where you get your news sources and information from. Whatever spin that suits your narrative you accept it The police let people in on other side of the building to divert the crown away from where government officials were. It's was a strategy since they were overwhelmed. There was no way the police available could have kept all the angry mob away Also this may sound unfair but .... Attack on government officials who represent people of this country is far more serious than an attack on individuals ordinary citizens That is why if a foreign country assassinate our president, the whole country is going to war but the same reaction cannot be said if an ordinary citizen is assassinated. This not because a President is a better human than the ordinary citizens but its because the president represent the whole country That's why an attack on the capital where our elected officials were threatened including the Vice president, is considered a much more serious event. Cavanaugh Supreme Court protest was not life threatening. Jan 6 was and we all heard kill/ hang Mike Pence chants in the crowd. What do you think would have happened if they got hold of Pence?
@@Ashantia35 Oh the irony of claiming my sources are unreliable. There is actual video, pictorial, and court sworn evidence of the following: 1. The police stood by and allowed the protestors to enter. 2. Many protestors walked in an orderly, single file line following a cordoned partition to enter the capitol. 3. The doors that were opened are secured with magnetic locks that can only be opened from the inside using a security code. 4. The size of the protest was known and security was not increased to meet the logical need for additional law enforcement. I have never said the people should have breached the building, nor have I suggested the anger and violence are excusable. I simply point out that it is far more dangerous to have a government who looks away when cities are burning but treat largely non-violent rioters like dangerous insurrectionist who are deprived of rights. They don't care about the citizenry, but will act irrationally when they "feel" threatened. Please note, there were not nearly enough weapons nor organization to come close to causing harm to Congress or the vice president. Those who know basics know that there is security throughout the capitol as well as underground tunnels and bunkers. Again, the rioters who caused damage or committed violence should be prosecuted accordingly. Christians should roundly condemn causing harm, damage, and injury. But we need to look at the big picture to see what is more dangerous, a government who will use every resource to get justice (revenge) against those who breached their business while ignoring the loss of life and livelihood across the nation, or a group of ridiculous rioters without weapons, wearing flags, and screaming threats without any real possibility of following through. History shows us that governments who protect their own at the expense of their citizenry are a grave danger. Fascism is the surrendering of individual rights for the good of the nation. Who is asking for the surrender of rights? Who is growing their security while lightening penalties for crimes against individuals? Dig deep and really think who is more dangerous? Crazy "patriots" acting like fools or a growing government given cart blanche to protect themselves?
Do you know what I think is a strawman? Conflating peoples criticisms of Christian nationalism to abortion laws, rather than things like Muslim bands and forcing kids to pray in school.
Thank you. Especially when right now the supreme court is deciding a former public school coach (who is lying) while suing his former school district, swearing he only prayed in private and of course none of the students felt pressured to join. But we all know if that had been a Muslim coach leading prayer on the field Christians would lose their minds. (Joseph Kennedy is the coach). I recommend Opening Arguments who hosted an episode with lawyers, using clips from the actual court session.
The ancient Israelite which include king David and the disciples were nationalists. Remember when the disciples were still hoping for Israel to be restored in the ascension of Christ. He didn’t rebuke them. So it’s not necessarily bad
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 David killed a man and committed adultery so why you are presently looking at the mans past sins to judge him? Oh because David repented right? So you read ones heart now to say trump never repented? And btw we don’t vote for a pastor but a commander in chief. Beside do you even know his accomplishments for the Christian cause I.e. anti abortion measures, pro life judges and religious freedom? Maybe you don’t because you are too busy listening to pro abortion feminists, liberals, socialists and atheists in the media, entertainment and politics. Oh btw why do you think these Godless bunch hate trump? It’s because he is on the way of their agenda.
Also in regards to the questions being ambiguous or vague, consider the possibility that the answers were not. Consider the possibility the answers addressed this vagueness with detail and Clarity and then once again the authors had to take what they had heard and funnel it back down to a yes or no.
When it comes to Christian Nationalism. Using the word quoted by Voddie Baucham ( you keep saying that I don't think it means what you think it means.) In other words if there is any Christian Nationalism it is related to servants of Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords and King of kings and there is no pride in it only humility.
Looking forward to release - I believe it is a problem not for the reasons political opponents say it is but theologically - it’s idolatry to value ANYTHING above the Lord. “Proud to be an American?” No - I’m humbled to be an American, because I don’t deserve these blessings. I’m proud of being created by the Father, saved by Christ, and having the in dwelling Holy Spirit. 🙏
@@captainfordo1 you don’t know my life’s work Daniel. I’m putting more time and sweat into serving our country as a civilian than many touting “God bless America.”
Yes political and even national idolatry is a thing but it is also commonly used to disparage anyone who dares stand against wokism. True Christianity will be decidedly out of step with both "D" and "R" or any other worldly movement for that matter.
Of the 10 Commandments of Exodus 20, we should only legislate based on the last 6 commandments which covers "love for your neighbor". The first 4 are about your "love for God". Those should not be legislated.
To be proud and grateful to be an American isn't wrong. Especially when our country was founded to be able to praise God freely and give the people freedom, as God has done for us by giving us free will. To be proud of that and this country isn't worshipping this country. And those who are like that do not certainly worship or want a king. We want a servant leader as president. But we got a tyrant.
You can't be proud and grateful. You can be HUMBLED and grateful and then make things better. Proud to be an American is loving the fruit and hating the Tree. Where the Tree is God and the fruit is everything Good that stems from Him. Akin to the Israelite worshiping Mollok. Did you see how "proud" America was during the post WWII era until now? The 60s, 70s, 80s and so on. The DEGENERACY and Sinfulness this country experienced during those 3/4 of a century of "pride"?
Our country was founded to allow ALL religions and cults to worship freely. Tell me how that faired well with Israel when they allowed Molech and Ba'al worship.
@@Lilc97Jax each one of you who is sitting in the judgement seat of God and your words of condemnation for others will be the words God uses to convict you.
@@springray2323 I think religious freedom is biblical because the Bible is clear that to become a Christian one must have an inward transformation in their heart and therefore the state cannot make anyone a true Christian through laws or force. Also the theocracy in Israel was under the old covenant which God made specifically with Israel. Therefore, saying our current government should be like like Old Testament Israel is a problematic and unbiblical argument.
Excellent discussion. During the founding of this country, the clergy had a tremendous influence on civic life and promoting throwing off the tyranny of the king. Even giving speeches in churches. The book "America's Providential History" discusses this and many other important subjects for a biblical view of civic life.
I don't think calling America a covenant nation like Israel is right, but let's be careful. Reading the founders' original writings show how they had hearts toward God and sought Him as they framed the Constitution and led this country I those early years in not insignificant. God HAS blessed our country in many ways and we HAVE contributed to the movement of the gospel across the world. So let's not give these issues short shrift to avoid running into the other ditch. 🤔
2 cents: This one is tricky.....It really is a "woke" buzz phrase that will get even bigger and be a huge stick (especially as it is used by "experts" in studies and media) to intimidate Christians. It's used as a pejorative to hint or flat out charge fascism. But within Christianity, there needs to be a guard against "gospels" that allow politics (left or right) to supercede "The Gospel". As others here have pointed out, there's plenty of apostasy an accompanying bitterness to go around, but has there been enough love, kindness, and humility?...after all, that's how the world will know Christians -- by their love? right?
Well if your theology is how you understand God in the Bible wouldn't that also translate to how you understand the world too? I'm not one of those America is the real isreal types but when conservatives actually get into power don't you think they should actively do things to fight back and discriminate against the other side? Like make gay marriage illegal? And cause problems for leftists and the lgbtq. Because just holding on to the ground when we're in power doesn't seem to be doing anything it seems like conservatives are so stuck on principles where the left is immoral and anti-god and have no principles so we always end up losing in the long run we're not conserving anything if we don't actually fight back. Like no one cares about tax policy when your kids are told they can switch their gender and elementary School. We need to stop giving free speech to Marxist in my opinion.
Is there a difference between using one’s theology to help vs to hurt? Power under (liberal) vs a power over (conservative). This is covered more in The Myth of a Christian Nation.
What's so ironic about your statement is that classical conservativism is not a "power over" situation at all. And in fact was expressly interested in greatly limiting the power of government over the consent of the people. So this new idea of conservatives wanting to enforce their beliefs on others is not actually conservative or harkening back to the founding father's and the constitution *at all.* So if anyone says they are a conservative but they advocate for increased government control over the states and over the people, they are actually fascist wolves in sheep's clothing. (and I suspect that there are those pushing this narrative/movement in order to give the left something to fight against and leave the desired synthesis as the end result. For example, this seems to be a good way to ultimately demonize all Christians and classical conservatives - and perhaps a way to allow the state to exorcize greater power to silence and arrest Christian dissenters. Look up the Hegelian Dialectic to see what I'm talking about)
Do people read Scripture? Racial Apartheid was not Christian. Racial Apartheid was based on secular pseudo science. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." - John 3:6.
God changes a nation by changing HEARTS ...Holy Spirit revival.....not by laws. Laws and politics and a nations are set up by God to provide order. I am studying the choosing of the kings in 1 and 2 Samuel and the KING is not the same as the president. The people wanted a leader “ like other nations”. God warned about this because politics is about cultural mores not necessarily Biblical! The king was for the people of the chosen nation and today the King is Christ who is over His Kingdom represented by His Christian people IN EVERY NATION. We need to think about the Church in every nation and aline with Christ. There are no Perfect leaders nor Nations. Don’t make idols of political leaders nor a nation. God allows imperfect leaders and Nations and brings about His will. We are all sinners, imperfect, including how we vote and including our leaders therefore we need to look to Christ first. God is more concerned about Kingdom building than nation building.
Here are the key questions: Do Christian Nationalists seek to outlaw other faiths? Or force-convert anyone who isn't Christian? Or impose Christianity upon anyone who ascribes to another (or no) faith? If the answer is "no" then by all means carry on. If it is "yes", then we do have a problem here.
Nice work. I am not a Christian but respect it’s tenets big time. I think that democracy, as I conceive it is heavily constrained by monotheism. Not nullified but conditioned by it. If the Greeks invented it, it is important to acknowledge that their religion was not a morally authoritarian one. The morals of the Greek gods were appalling. In that sense man was a measure of all things. The law of men was the higher law. That is the context of democracy as invented. Monotheism proposes a higher law, power and morality. In this sense there is no difference between the three monotheisms. Or, imagining the religions of the world and moral philosophies are only the big three, which is how we tend to think, is, in my case, exclusionary. The US was founded as a monotheism, that is the reality of the west altogether, governed by moral law from above. That is why one cannot say simply. “You are against abortion? Fine. Din’t have one.” And there the matter shall rest. But it doesn’t: the imposition of religion.
Grateful for this video, mostly because I can understand why some church folks think and say what they do. Wish this was available back in 2020 when it was at fever pitch. Perhaps hindsight is 20/20.
As a small s secularist I support students (private citizens) praying in public schools, but I oppose the State mandating prayer in Public school or mandating the reading of scripture in schools. State mandated faith harm citizens and it harms faith. In Canada we used to have laws prohibiting Jewish people and Catholics from holding jobs or holding office to favour the Orangemen (protestants). We had Eugenics programs to sterilize First Nations people (up until the 1980s) and rounded up thousands of First Nation and Inuit children to Correct them in Church run residential schools. There was also persecution of the Doukhobors (Russian East Orthodox, non-liturgical), These policies harmed citizens and harmed faith in Canada.
As Christians, our citizenship is with the Kingdom of God, our King is Jesus Christ, and our constitution is the Bible. There are two kingdoms: The Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world. We are ambassadors for Christ, so I DON'T vote or involve myself in politics.
Great conversation, thanks! Exodus 20:2-4 NLT “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery. “You must not have any other god but me. “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.” Exodus 20:2-4 NLT Matthew 22:36-39 NLT “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?” Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” Matthew 22:36-39 NLT The “You” here is both individual and national. So as someone free’d from sin (egypt) your values would flow towards God’s word and commands. Wider family, community, state and nation in accepting God’s grace through Christ would lean towards “Christian Nationalism”. Here is the catch though! Christ showed that those that have the LAW, power and privilege WILL abuse their power and through their power and actions loose the spirit and good of the law. God is the only and final judge and people are weak at being fair and just judges. This in turn argues against the state and its power to tax, confiscate, abuse its power. My argument at the end of the day would be against the state as a whole because of the fact that power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts absolutely. As a South African I’ve seen the abuse of power under both a white Christian national government and now total collapse of the new “all inclusive” democratic government. Both were weak as they are run by people and people are sinners.
The reason that the prodigal son left God was because he wanted to be special. He wanted to be an individual instead of being one with God's love and all of His creation. John 17.20-23 With this individuation and specialism came good and evil, making oneself and his group good and others that are different are evil. Before that, there was no good and evil, just the perfection of God's pure creation. We are all that prodigal son. Dividing people into races, nations, and religions can follow this same belief in specialness unless you realize we are all one in God.
This smacks heavily of Universalism. This is 100% false. For those who believe sincerely in Christ Jesus "there is no Jew or Gentile". For believers in Christ Jesus we are all one in Christ. Unbelievers are not children of God. They are outside and under the wrath of God until they come to faith in Jesus.
Please stop this Progressive Christianity/Course of Miracles witchcraft nonsense and go read The Tower of Babel. It was GOD who created the division AFTER sin had been going on for a looong time.
To the people in these comments. Christianity is going to continually be associated with the extremist rhetoric if you do not speak out against it. That still doesn’t mean we’re obligated to sincerely include your religion in public policy but you have the responsibility as a representative of your faith to dampen the extremism breeding in your churches. If you fail to do this you’re nothing but complicit in the extremism that is growing.
As a Black evangelical Christian who grew up in the South, I used to look at Neil with ALL THE SIDE EYE 😒because in other videos I've seen with him (with other white men...) he seemed to be an enabler and warm security blanket for white conservatives who don't want to courageously acknowledge America's past...but he really brought it home at the end @ 49:24: Back to the fact that we are Christians FIRST and we shouldn't be LAZY in resorting to pejoratives like "Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke" and "Christian nationalist"! He's now gained my respect.👍🏾
There's a point I have to make here, it is in no way meant as a criticism. I don't have the income to buy all the books, the multitude of books mention on this and so many other UA-cam Channels, and I can guarantee I am just one of a huge number of people in a similar situation, especially with today's cost of living etc. Having said that I have bought a number of books recommended by your Channel, 12 - 15 thereabouts. I love the guy interviewed in this VLOG, he's clearly got a lot of brain matter that matters a lot! I very much want to hear more of him. I'm in another Country, New Zealand, but we have a lot of the same 'stuff' happening here. Tools, it's great to be provided explanations as to how a particular 'thought narrative' can be understood and be provided with tools to respond in a coherent way, that allow me to not fall into I'm right, your wrong (if I don't understand I cannot challenge the opposing narrative, at that stage it is best that I keep quite and not be embarrassed to admit I am ignorant where a particular subject is concerned) . I need an understanding of the narrative before I can hope to offer right Biblical responses to wrong progressive opinions. I got a lot from this VLOG, and the previous VLOG you did with Neil Shenvi. Thank you both, this has been valuable to me! God bless!
It's nearly August and I wonder if you've learned more about Christian nationalism (dominionism) since February. You might want to check out some UA-cams from "Christians against Christian Nationalism." Our US military has been somewhat vigilant about this particularly virulent strain of violent theocrats, but that may change in the coming years.
The title is a bit like asking if the siege on our Capitol on January 6 was an "overblown strawman." The events of that day nearly overturned our government and got a lot more people killed. I recall plenty of "Jesus" banners and some large crosses -- along with the gallows and nooses. I think you WANT to believe it's an overblown strawman. But why?
@13:00 .. the key point of this definition for me is the mythology part. For instance, Christian nationalists will say over and over again that the founding fathers were Christian. Any bit of research will obviously show that not to be true.
God calls His people to love their country His way; not from men's traditions, emotionalism, pride, etc. God has prescribed in His word how every follower of Christ ought to love his or her country: 1) Honor and respect the king/authorities 2) Obey the laws of the land 3) pay taxes 4) pray for the salvation of those who hold government seats.
To answer the rhetorical question at thumbnail: they always make the muders of babies a political question when it is NOT, abortion is a moral question 100% a moral question.
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 That's a common allegation about/against him, especially when people listen to or read brief snippets from his work, but one (semi-unfortunate) thing about him is that he takes a while to say things thoroughly.
As a believer who's grown up in the Bible Belt, Christian Nationalism is indeed a real worldview, AND it is hard to define because there's no set criteria for what it looks like. In full disclosure, I may have at some point been one. I grew up in a very patriotic home (nothing inherently wrong in that - I still love my country), attended very patriotic churches, and listened to Rush Limbaugh, Shaun Hannity and Mark Levine for years. I spent many more hours listening to talk radio than I did reading God's Word and building relationships with folks outside my political tribe. I became very tribal. In that type of cultural environment, it's easy to start believing that the United States is the New Israel, we are a sanctified people, and our presidents are anointed leaders as the kings and prophets of old. Thankfully, I was shaken from this bubble during the Trump Era. Watching the behavior of those who call themselves believers these past 4 years has solidified my belief that political and cultural idolatry (aka "Christian Nationalism") is strong in the American Church. I believe it is every bit as bad a diabolical infection as progressive christianity because it often becomes a primary issue over the Gospel. I believe it was said by C.S. Lewis that Satan sends errors in pairs? Examples include: Trump becoming the standard barrier for a moral culture war, January 6th, Robert Jeffress FBC church political rallies, Christians leaving churches and fighting over secondary political like issues infringing upon personal autonomy (very ugly at our church), the charismatic's love of Trump (see Kat Kerr and other like "prophets"), hatred and disdain for international refugees, being labeled WOKE and CRT for advocating for racial justice, the list goes on and on. David French, I think, has done a wonderful job chronicling a lot of these issues. Progressive "christianity" is wicked and so is "Christian" Nationalism. Any worldview that blurs the Gospel and God's Word is diabolical.
I’m curious what you think of the book “The American Covenant” by Marshall Foster that Kirk Cameron had been speaking about. I don’t believe it promotes Christian Nationalism the way you define it, but I imagine many will assume it does. I think “divinely influenced” is very different from “divinely inspired”. I don’t think anyone can argue our founding fathers and documents weren’t influenced by God.
Many have made that argument actually. Many books have been published on the topic. Many articles, video essays… I suggest you look into it. Just search the topic “founding fathers were Christian myth” or “our nation was not founded on Christianity”. No policy is influenced by God himself because that cannot be demonstrated. What can be is whether or not SCRIPTURE influenced policy or documents. If there is no evidence scripture was used to influence a decision, it likely wasn’t, and therefore you cannot claim God did something.
In the late 70s, 80s and 90s, "Christian" radio spokespeople, especially Focus on the Family, and others like it, repeatedly preached that we should have the gospel, yeah, right, but *"don't be so heavenly minded you're no earthly good!"* That was spoken a couple of times a week, if not every day, for decades. In other words, what Christianity is about was being subtly or not so subtly changed out from under us: it is about conservative political action.. It's *"what God's doing now",* said the clearly false prophets, who spoke "for" God, when He really said no such thing, and had nothing to do with it, and almost no one said a word against it. Talk about lukewarm. But when progressives/the "Emergent church" of the 90s & 2000s, preached that we should not be so concerned about the gospel of personal salvation, but about the gospel of works of social justice, they are suddenly upset about the damage to the gospel! If they didn't care about the repurposing of Christianity, under the Right Wing, that was not what they really cared about when it started (back) on the Left. Why is it like pulling teeth to get Christians to see that we really have no right to do this to the gospel? Neither Right nor Left is on God's side.
But they had this thing of joining forces with unbelievers for "something that really matters": NOT the gospel of salvation--the gospel is "nice, but" _unreal,_ was the tacit message implied by our new, pragmatic masters. So in the name of the unborn, or decency, or whatever, born again Christians joined with "Christians" who hated the whole idea of being born again through faith in Jesus, and bringing up religious differences about such trivialities was bad form. Protestants joined with Catholic and Orthodox, setting aside what apparently didn't really matter, for the sake of what did: realpolitik. Money. Power. They joined with Mormons and Jews in a good cause, and occasionally even with atheists! I remember at least once, when Muslims joined pro-life groups, but that was before 9-11. It isn't that Christians can't do anything with unbelievers, because I'd certainly join a bucket brigade to put out a fire, whoever else was helping out. It's just that the purpose of Christianity was being reshaped by this movement, exactly as it is by the Left, and as it was bringing down the importance of the gospel, compared to those fought-for political gains, it was a lot more than just helping a good cause.
As a Libertarian, this discussion was quite interesting. I know a lot of people who I believe cross the line to idolizing the United States and wanting to use the government's monopoly on force to impose Christian morals. When I say Christian morals, I mean things like outlawing gay marriage, teacher led prayer in government schools, war on drugs, prostitution etc. I believe it is a matter of how people view the proper role of government. Unfortunately, being that most are raised by government schools, most people are statists, so they look to the government (which is force) for solutions and culture , instead of using the church to INFLUENCE through Christ and the Holy Spirit and using peaceful voluntary transactions.
What is being said in the “patriot churches” like pulpit of Jack Hibbs and the amount of viewers worldwide is not a strawman. Straw Manning would be defining Christian nationalism to a non-broad definition. I prefer the word “us versus them political worldview churches ” to the word “Christian nationalism” myself. Whatever you wanna call it all roads lead back to Donald Trumpism. You would not be having this episode apart from him.
@@Jessees902 Yes, the same accusations were common when George W. Bush was popular. They even made similar accusations with Mike Huckabee. Progressives, where the personal is political, have been accusing anyone who is Christian as "being too political" because they aren't progressive enough throughout my lifetime. It's just a manipulation tactic to keep Christians quiet while they wield state power against the church.
Well said. Fellow Christians need to call it as it is. It's no different than when the nazis claimed to be christians and Hitler as their so called christian leader. People need to see through this deception instead of trying to justify,intellectualize and beat around the bush of what is obvious to those who aren't deceived by trumpism.
Hilarious. Have you missed the past century of Christian nationalism trying to override the government? It’s takes trumpism to open your eyes? Ignorance must be blissful.
"Christian Nationalism" is one of the reasons why I went Christian Anarchism, were Jesus is King and He created the universe in 6 days less then 10K years ago. And I take 1st Samuel 8 much further then most Christians.
Neil makes a good point about Bidenʻs and Harrisʻs use of religious language; however, please note that no believer in the first amendment approves those actions. Also, those are not Christian Nationalist actions because neither of those politicians wants a Christian nation; they are simply pandering to an assumption that most people react favorably to religious-sounding language.
It’s the same with all these shows in that they talk in such general terms but will never come out the real pastors that caused the problems example so few of shows like this that are incredible will say anything about the Kenneth Copeland‘s of the world but they will speak in a roundabout way so those who are experiencing this know who they’re talking about and that’s the same with this subject Christian nationalism example go to any assembly of god church in there you will find Christian nationalism and I’m so sure of so many others but we need shows like this who has credibility to call these people out in the harm that they are causing
Because there’s no such thing. Communism is an inherently materialistic and atheistic worldview that goes directly against nearly every orthodox Christian belief.
. Hi-ALISA; Beautifully done. Thank you for following-up and sharing your interview with NEIL-SHENVI - brilliantly done. I can see you genuinely expanding your cognizance to more clearly and precisely parse your ‘biblical’ understanding and argumentation. Love you in His Name always. … . ~
Many Christians do not know the difference between Judaism and Christianity. Love in Judaism - Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 5:43; Matthew 19:19; Matthew 22:37-39; Hebrews 7:11; 2 Corinthians 3:7-15. Love in Christianity - Matthew 5:44; John 13:34; John 15:12; Galatians 5:22; 1 Corinthians 13; Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 8. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Neil did make a good argument for evangelical Christianity and against christian nationalism. But he is not an expert in this matter( after all when does a chemist started giving lessons on political theology). While agreeing with him on some topics, I would say he missed out on issues of christian complicity and normativity. I have never encountered anybody from other faith or religion as vociferous and hedonistic as Christians. When questioned on their eschatological stance, most Christians argue they believe in a exclusive Christian kingdom that Christ inaugurate. I agree ‘Taking America back for God’ has issues with definitiveness- they stayed away from exclusive claims- but the authors have given apt reasons why they formulated those questions and what they couldn’t cover. Neil purposely forgot to address those.
I agree that many Christians have a dangerous and flawed eschatology, focusing on a worldly 1000 year kingdom and the rapture, but those same Christians are also the ones that blindly support Israel: Christian Zionists. And if one studies the history of those eschatological ideas, one will pretty readily discover that it was zionists who paid certain people to popularize them in the form of "dispensationalism". The sad thing is that too many people just blindly follow whatever their local pastor tells them (a problem created by the "reformation" and a rejecting of all Catholic/Orthodox beliefs) instead of learning history and seeing what the apostolic and early church fathers believed and taught. Even the early "reformers" like Luther, Calvin, et all.. retained a great deal more of Catholic theology than most protestant/baptist/nondenominational/pentacostal believers would feel comfortable with today. But that's the problem with rejecting an authority like the Pope and the Church, it made everyone into their own Pope and led to 20,000+ different Churches.
You shall not murder - Judaism Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment - Christianity Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder [Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17; Romans 7:5-13], and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment [Exodus 21:23; Deuteronomy 19:21; Deuteronomy 27:26].’ 22 But I say to you [Hebrews 7:11-12; Hebrews 8] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ [Lit., in Aram., Empty head] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge [Ecclesiastes 5:8; Isaiah 55:8-9], the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny." He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Have Christians ever successfully implemented Christian ideals via the legislative process that has withstood a single generation? Because for at least as long as I've been around.. things have only steadily declined. When it comes to vote, it seems it always about defending whatever bread crumbs we have left to defend and never expanding or advancing the cause.
@@springray2323 Demonstration of causation in social science is not a simple thing. I don't believe this assertion. You could point to Iran, but its government is obviously an exterme example not to be extrapolated from.
Because this is a fallen world that's on the road to destruction. It will only get worse until the end and man will never be capable of building a utopia so casting a vote means nothing.
You've never been in a Totalitarian country have you? What you consider "bread crumbs" people that actually have consider GOLD nuggets. And yes, Christians have changed the world. Perhaps you should listen to what John MacArthur has to say about the process of Sanctification and the abolition of Slavery in England and who did it. What you believe is a LIE.
@@einarabelc5 Sorry but you're clearly projecting. I was posing a general question based on my own personal experience. Not demeaning one side or another. I would be more inclined listening to your arguments if your attitude wasn't such a turn off.
No, the founders who established the United States understood the bloodshed of said religion by kings and queens to impose theocratical laws. There is a reason why laws are not predicated upon the basis of an established religion or any religion for that matter. Whatever “success” Christians have imposed has always been temporary.
Christian nationalism, Christian coalitions and on and on. What does any of that have to do with Jesus? Vote any way you want to, but all the talk about who is or who isn’t a Christian nationalist, or racist or any other label doesn’t say much about the Jesus I learned about in Sunday School. This is a long post, It’s not mean spirited nor is it about anyone’s particular political party. And I’m not a Christian, but I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to be one if I saw people acting like those I remember being taught about as a kid. Nothing matches up. . Being a Christian, if really being a Christian matters, try to remember how Jesus acted and behaved when confronted with the same problems and issues we face today? Politics- he didn’t call for political activism, instead he commanded his followers to love their neighbors as they loved themselves. And let’s be clear, he wasn’t talking about only the neighbors you happen to like- all your neighbors. He knew, if he is God, that political ideologies no matter what they were called then, or at any other time cannot fix what’s wrong with human beings. If you believe that living in a community, state or nation where decency and fairness is practiced and valued- then you need to practice and live the way Jesus commanded you to live. His advice to his followers was to demonstrate by word and deed, by being a reflection of his love to others by imitating his life. I ask you, I mean I am really asking you what a person’s life would look like if God was living in that person’s life? How would a person live and act if they really believed God existed and that they were actually one of God’s friends? Come on- don’t hold back, what would being in a relationship with the creator of reality do to a person’s life? Would they be in the streets or on social media screaming and ranting about how unfair they think their political party ( any party or any ideology ) is being treated? Would they advocate violence and spew hatred towards people they don’t agree with, when did Christ act like that? Does anyone recall what He said following him might look like? If you are slapped in the face, turn the other cheek. How much of that do we see Christians doing today? And what about enemies? He said to love them- that’s right to love them! What did he do when his enemies came for him? He asked the Father to forgive them. And when one of his disciples resorted to violence and cut the ear off a Roman soldier, what did Jesus do? Did he say, keep it up dude and kill the SOB! Nope, he corrected the disciple and put the ear that had been hacked off back on the soldiers head! Furthermore, how did his disciples and followers behave after his resurrection? Did they try to overthrow the government? Nope. The majority of the original 12 and many many unknown Christians met their deaths because they wouldn’t deny what Jesus taught them about how God expected them to live. He expected them to be like Him and act like a person who was created in His image! I ask you, HOW would a person really live their lives if they really understood that they were indeed created in God’s image? Someone anyone tell me what that would look like. To know that they were created in the image of God, and that that same God became a man so He could demonstrate his love for his creation- how would you expect a person to behave with that kind of knowledge? Would it look something like this? Would you be willing to be crucified upside down like Peter and suffer a horrible death for your God? Would you go to your death being thrown to lions in the Colosseum for entertainment purposes? Would you be willing to go to your death proclaiming that Jesus is God, and that God is the highest and most perfect example of unconditional love that can ever be conceived of, as someone bludgeons you to death for your beliefs. Well, that’s how many people who claimed to be Christians went to their deaths. They weren’t whining about being treated unfairly. They were proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed as they went to their deaths. Because that’s how a person acts and behaves when they really do know God even when the world is killing them. All I see are people claiming to be Christians and expressing their faith by hating others, letting the hungry remain hungry, allowing widows and children to live in squalor. Resenting the poor, whining about having to help them, whining about having to spend tax money help them, even though helping the poor is supposedly something Jesus wanted His followers to be responsible for. You would think they wouldn’t whine about paying some taxes to help since they aren’t gonna do it themselves. Go figure. Jesus said the poor would always be on the planet, at least that’s what I learned in Sunday School as a kid, and that Christians are supposed to caring for them the why he commanded His followers to care for them. With the same love he cared for them with. He fed them, healed them, encouraged them, and never once despised them or felt ashamed of them. If I were a Christian, a person who steadfastly knows in their hearts, that God literally lives in their very souls. I think I would definitely be a very different man. If I could know God they way Christians tell me they know him, I would be there in a skinny second. To literally be in a tight relationship with God Almighty, to know Him and be known by Him, it’s a mind blowing proposition that is so incredible that I cannot imagine how grateful and willing I would be to love him and act like Him.
For what it's worth the Apostles echoed the Prophets in that they claimed that the false teachers would come in, that many would go into Apostasy, etc... Paul in Acts 20 even says some of the leadership he was speaking to would be the very culprits. There is whole sections of writings from the Apostles saying these things will happen. I say all this to say, your right, but the fact that your right, only further to proves what the bible claims. So if I may ask, if I understood you right, your not a believer? And that is in part due to faulty people, many of whom, weather they realize it or not, are not saved? Heck Yeshua warned of this himself Matthew Chapter 7. Many will say they were for him did things for him etc.. and he will say I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. I honestly just want to suggest that since the bible warns that such people will exist, and even implies it would be a huge number of them, that this fact shouldn't keep you from belief, if anything it should make it stronger. That said some are just weak, in faith, still babies, and think they have arrived. They will be humbled. But don't let these truths, that God himself said would happen, become reasons to not believe in the very God who warned of such things. Appreciate your post, those observations are spot on.
Hello, I carefully read your post and I appreciate your thoughtful response. I’ve read the passages you suggested and yes, it's given me a lot to think about. I’m not an atheist or am I agnostic in this sense: I believe that “God” exists. Beyond that, I cannot say too much about what even that means. I’ve given it a lot of thought over the years. I’ve read and carefully looked at what some would argue are the best arguments for and against a belief in God. I’ve studied what the early Christian church fathers had to say and studied what they had to say about the nature of God. I've looked at Jewish thought, both ancient and current about the nature of God as well. And to a lesser extent Islamic scholars, and to an even lesser extent Hindu, and a few oriental concepts of God. I’ve looked at atheism from the point of view of both the scientific and philosophical disciplines. I’ve looked at those arguments, and while some of what they say is worth considering-- like the problem of evil and suffering in the world, I find their arguments less satisfying than those made by theists and my own experience living in the world. I’ve earnestly prayed to know and understand what being in a relationship with God means. It’s not for a lack of sincerity or an unwillingness to connect with the divine. I cannot nor am I interested in letting go of my belief that a supreme being- that’s usually referred to as God exists. I’m convinced that an uncreated eternal being, one that must be omnipotent, omnipresent, and every other Omni you can think of, must be good. What I cannot get hold of is where do you go from there? Who’s concept of God is right? Every major faith tradition can make good arguments that their beliefs are right or make the most sense. I do think that the Christian faith is beautiful, and if true, offers humanity a connection and relationship to God that is deeply satisfying and personal. It’s hard to argue that the incarnation is trivial in any way whatsoever. To believe that God became a man to demonstrate how much he loves and cares about his creation is undeniably beautiful, good, and awe-inspiring. I agree with you, I’d probably be better off separating what “Christians” say they believe and how they act it out in their lives. It’s very difficult to do when those claiming to be hardcore believers, not unlike those hosting this channel, display a kind of Christianity that doesn’t looks anything like the teachings of Jesus to me. I mentioned in my other post teachings that came directly from the mouth of Jesus, yet there are very few examples of anyone actually living like they believe anything he said is true. Since the beginning, it’s been one group of believers arguing and fighting about what it even means to be a Christian. I’m not singling out any particular denomination, none of them particularly like each other, and condemn one another to hell regularly. I’ve heard it said that Christians are the only people who shoot their own wounded. Anyway, I really do appreciate your thoughtful response to, after rereading my post, is nothing more than a rant. Sorry about that. It just seems to me that when people say they are Christians, at least ones who have spent a good portion of their lives telling people how wonderful it is to be in a relationship to a loving and merciful God, that they would act something like the God they claim to believe in. I guess what I’m trying to say is that there should be some evidence that being a Christian really changes a person. How is it possible for so many people who say they are Christians, then hurl insults and hatred at people they don’t even know? It doesn’t matter if someone is conservative, progressive, or independent politically. Because very few people but into any ideology completely. It seems that the best people can do is politically is to discard whatever they don’t like about any particular party and hang onto what they like. It’s imperfect but what else can people do? As far as I’m concerned there isn’t a political party that Jesus would join in our nation. They are all deeply flawed but if anyone wants to live in a democracy, it’s the way it is. For example, many on the right are pro-life to the bone. They will fuss and fight with anyone who isn’t and label them baby killers etc. On the surface who can argue that everyone should have the chance to live. It seems like a no-brainer, it seems like something God would appreciate. However, the majority of those people want to end their pro-life activism at the birth of the child. From there they don’t want to have anything to do with the child saved from abortion. It seems to me an authentic pro-life belief ought to include a willingness to care for and help make sure that the child has a reasonably good chance at a good life. Why aren’t those who claim that abortion is a horrible sin on the nation, but not think that helping to care for unwanted children with the same zeal after they are born, isn't any less sinful? I don’t think that those saving children from abortion are adopting and lovingly caring for them as if their lives really mattered. Likewise, on the left some believe abortion isn’t anyone's business except for the mother, and if anyone questions that belief, those who do are terrible people who don’t value another human being's right to make decisions for themselves. And a sacred right has been violated if their lives and the way they choose to live them aren’t taken seriously. Because they are human beings who deserve respect and should be treated with respect. Yet, birth control is available for anyone who wants it. There isn’t an excuse to have very many unwanted pregnancies. It can happen but it rarely does. For many pro-choice people their life has tremendous value, yet find ways to say that children in the womb aren’t relevant and have no value. I said all that to say that being a human being is complicated. People make all kinds of moral judgments and apply them to everyone but themselves. There are gaping issues in either stance that cannot be just dismissed by saying the other side is evil. Lastly, I’ll take your advice and reread the scriptures and try not to impose my own bias about what I think being a Christian is about. Maybe I underestimate what happens to people’s lives and how the treat one another after meeting God. I guess as they say, I should get the log jam out of my eye before criticizing someone with only a speck of dust in their eye.
@@nathanieldiaz2845 Hello Christian, I feel I need to say that, please don’t feel obligated to respond to my posts. I’m not exactly sure what triggered me to make my first post. But I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I remember a teacher in elementary school telling me/us that when we point an accusatory finger at someone, we should remember that three of our own fingers are pointed back at us. I know I’m as deeply flawed as anyone else. I don’t have answers, I just seem to have a lot of questions. When I expressed disappointment in this particular channel and it’s host, it isn’t because I think she is in any way evil or intentionally trying to mislead anyone.
@@tcl5853 It's all good, I don't feel obligated, and I get it sometimes we need to let out our frustrations. At least you did it in a way that allows for some self reflection. That said some of what follows is possibly me ranting myself lol. My heart truly goes out to you brother, more and more specifically in the western world there seems to be a massive disconnect, the time is nearing, quite possibly in my lifetime, when this all will get massively worse for short time, then Messiah returns. I am reminded of Elijah when he was a prophet for God in the apostate northern Kingdom of Israel, fleeing for his life and asking God if he is the only one left. God responds he has 7000. In some ways this is something of a double edged sword. I have no doubt that it brought relief to him that he wasn't alone but that indeed there was 7000 others! Yet this was at a time when there was atleast a couple million people living in the Northern Kingdom. That relief on some level I imagine was short lived, not all the relief but Good Lord. I look out at specifically America and can't help but feel this terrifying truth that the percentage isn't all that different. Something the western church in particular has forgotten is that Fear of the Lord is a healthy thing, our claims to Love God yet with no fear of him is ... troubling to say the least and in all honesty it's one of the foundational issues with us. True Reverence for the Creator of the Universe seems to be lacking. And just to be clear I am talking "Biblical fear" not the fear one has of a abusive step dad, but the fear one has for someone or something of great Power. God's power and Majesty demands respect and Awe. Yet even with such power and Majesty, he came here to us, creatures of dirt and clay, and hung on a cross. There is nothing we could have done to earn this. A perfect being that is perfect in a way that none of us can Fathom, not owing us a thing, chose to from before even making us, made a decision out of his own will, nothing and Noone can claim to have obligated him, his choice freely to say that he would pay the price. Most "Christian" Americans are so heavily distracted by entertainment by technology by anything and everything commercial (not that these things are inherently evil) that they will never take time to contemplate what that means and why there should be a reaction like no other if indeed we have come to knowledge of this truth. Agian, I am more than willing to say many are just babies in the faith. Or perhaps I just hope that is the case. (Not that I am perfect I definitely have my own issue I struggle with) What follows is an excerpt of scripture. Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God - to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit. But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him. For who has known the mind of Adonai? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah! As for me, brothers, I couldn’t talk to you as spiritual people but as worldly people, as babies, so far as experience with the Messiah is concerned. I gave you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. But you aren’t ready for it now either! For you are still worldly! Isn’t it obvious from all the jealousy and quarrelling among you that you are worldly and living by merely human standards? 1 Corinthians (1 Co) 2:14-16 CJB And 1 Corinthians (1 Co) 3:1-3 CJB As helpful as chapter divisions can be I can also see how they break the flow of the original writing. Just something to keep in mind when studying. But anyway look at what he says. A rebuke that many supposed American believers need to take to heart, because he is saying it to them as well. And a rebuke that falls in line with your observations. Brother I pray you find peace, that you find God, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, the King Of Israel, and through Messiah, his son who laid his life down for us all. You said yourself you see the beauty in this, I hope you can come to see the truth of it. May God bless you.
One of the reasons that the questions in the survey are broad is partly because in order to get a response they must be. Consider that few Christians agree at all on any of the dictates that many other believers and non-believers might consider definitive. On prayer in school, many Christians claim to be in favor of this--until they are presented with a prayer from another Christian denomination, at which time, they understandably balk. Generally, the label "Christian" is used very broadly, and that use would dissipate immediately if these Christians were asked to state what they actually believe and discovered how few of their fellow Christians agree with their particular beliefs. What is really confusing about Christianity is that so many conflicting faiths are considered Christian when the individuals within any faith vehemently disagree on what Christianity is.
Oh, it's a real problem. People who raised me in the faith have completely abandoned so much of what they taught me for "America is Israel v2" and "God is a Republican" theology. In the process they've embraced and shared lies, accommodated immorality, and completely destroyed their witness. People want to blame "the other" for the demise of the church, but I'm convinced the greatest deduction comes from within. Why love your neighbor when you can just demonize him/her? That's the lesson I've learned from my should be elders.
Exactly! Thank you for your truthful testimony and I am sorry for the shameful example by your elders.
Proverbs 23:23
I left an otherwise good, bible based baptist church because of extreme politics. In the months leading up to the presidential election, the pastor would use almost every Wednesday night to preach about the evil cabal of the elite, George Soros, and why they hate Trump and want him out of the presidency so they can bring communism to America. I got tired of being told what I should believe in regards to politics and left for a more politically neutral, bible believing church.
Yeah that is disturbing. Sounds like he might be a Qanon.
I have seen so much of this. Good on you for getting out. I pray you find a good home church that doesn't conflate Christianity and Civics.
This is another issue of Christians in politics in America. Most of the pastors who do that, *have taken oaths* that they *will not tell their congregations who to vote for,* this so they can receive the maximum form of tax free status, with absolutely nothing taxable to them, including the pastors' income and housing. Signing that document is *an oath* that they take very lightly, acting like it's something they have to do, and *their oath* not to tell people who to vote for, is a grievous infringement of their rights that they then "have" to find a cagey way to circumvent.
But there is a purpose behind requiring that oath. It is so that the political campaigns wouldn't be subsidized by churches, causing them to think they can take over the churches as their own armies and sources of cash. People sometimes think that whatever a "man of God" says is going to be true and they'd better obey them. They don't try to discern for themselves, just do whatever the preacher tells them to do. This is unhealthy for the country, but ruinous for the church. There are a lot more reasons this is not good, but think of how sad and unacceptable it is that so many pastors are willing to lie when they sign the documents, then act like they're heroes when they defy the very oath they took when they signed it. Why don't they care about lying? The Bible does; why don't they?
So, you never heard of Jerzy Popieluszko from Poland right? It's amazing how spoiled Americans are...I think I'm going to stop calling you Americans now.
I've visited a Christian Nationalist Church once, I told them I don't believe in voting due to 1st Samuel 8 and they were speechless.
As someone who grew up evangelical I don't know all the philosophy behind this--I can only say the difference I've seen between my childhood in the evangelical church (late '60s and '70s). When I was a child the church focused on demonstrating a Christlike life through kindness and examples and the sermons were about Jesus and the gospel. They just didn't speak politics. I don't remember ever hearing Billy Graham talk about the things his son does and denigrating huge groups of people like they do now. The change has turned me off so much I just steer clear. I'm done with it.
I feel your pain… it really saddens me because I have family who go to a patriot church is what it’s called and the love of country far surpasses the love for Christ and love for people and winning souls for Christ. I’ve never been there, all I know is they don’t talk about Jesus or how he’s working in their lives. There is much pride, a need to be right and no love. It’s very sad because the fruit of it is not good. Maybe there are born again believers there but this obsession with being right and converting souls to conservatives over Christianity does not work. Only those born again will develop those values. I was very sick recently and those family members didn’t ask how I was, only cared about who I’ll be voting for. It deeply hurts to see that that’s where there heart is. It is far from God. All I ever hear about is who’s running for office at the church and the recitation of the Declaration of Independence. Yes, I love my country too but I literally heard nothing from them about Jesus…. 😰
Amen
Perfectly put
Times have changed. This is not the same cultural environment as then. So now we just have "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" just love and acceptance with no doctrine, no sin and no condemnation for ungodly behavior. If you fault Franklin for his very simple presentations and very mild statements about the country, I don't think you will be very biblically effective with a weak non-confrontational presentation of the gospel. It appears that when John come on the scene, he was very controversial and condemning as was Jesus. Although Jesus had little interest in the culture [as Christian nationalism is, he was very condemning of unbelievers.
@@bobwood5146 -- Times have changed???? There is nothing new under the sun. The people throwing out "times have changed" have a very sinister agenda.
Listen, dude... I could prove within an hour that you have no clue about the genuine WORD of G-D. Psalm 2, Verse 12 -- how do you read it? ... LOL.
Luther’s doctrine of the two kingdoms is fitting here. The church’s role is to preach the gospel, not enforce moralism on the unbelieving as if that will change their hearts (so, a false gospel). The government’s role is to maintain order, ideally under God, but Jesus under Roman rule still wants us to obey the government God put in place so long as it’s within his will, even if we don’t like certain policies (I.e. wearing a mask or paying taxes). Romans 13 was written during persecution. Confusing these roles leads to chaos and a watered down gospel mixed with the law. Jesus is the one who will bring them into harmony when he returns. We literally have one job. Let’s not blow it on getting impatient or misunderstanding the real problem of lawlessness: the human heart.
We also have the responsibility of respecting our authorities...which means that we respect their position, and the terms of that job. We can't blindly accept every decision our government makes, sometimes we have to challenge them, so that no one crosses the moral laws established by God. Not only does this give us a role in supporting and guiding our leaders, it gives us a voice, and can lead a nation to righteousness. Giving leaders unchecked power and never questioning them is just plain dangerous.
@@kates3659 That’s not what I’m saying. Obeying is not the same as never questioning. If we’re commanded to do something against God’s law, we must disobey it. The problem right NOW though is that many Christians think that minor inconveniences and things that go against THEIR personal will is the same as being persecuted. We’ve equated being in a godless culture to being personally attacked even though this has been the early church’s exact situation and they never once complained about not having rights or not having the majority vote or enforcing moralistic laws that yes, protect people, but don’t solve the actual spiritual problem behind it all.
One guy even started equating the gospel to being free from government control and tyranny on this earth. That’s a false gospel. We have to separate Enlightenment/revolution values from the gospel because they’re just not biblical. Jeremiah the prophet was persecuted for telling the Israelites to go with the Babylonians into exile. It was the false prophets who were the nationalists. Not everything is as it seems. It’s in the sinful nature to rebel and fight, not submit. That’s why the crowd chose Barabbas the murderer and insurrectionist over Jesus who willingly suffered. We see this pattern over and over again. The truth is, you’re a Christian and Christians suffer. It’s in our contract. Fighting isn’t “brave” or being strong in the Lord. Being strong in the Lord is obeying him regardless of what we fear the outcome is. That includes submitting to a government we know is corrupt wherever it doesn’t conflict with God’s moral laws and simply preaching the gospel. We will not have the luxury of overthrowing what’s unjust this side of heaven. That’s not our job. Our job is to preach the gospel, which is fighting the spirit behind all this mess in the first place. But you can’t have it both ways. In fighting the world LIKE the world, you WILL lose the gospel in the process.
Romans 13 by no means implies that government has authority to define moral good or evil.
It is focused exclusively upon their God given role to bear the sword (to arrest and kill) wrongdoers.
In the US, it would be to say God gives Executive power to the state to be his wrath. It doesn't say anything about the government's legislative power.
@@Julia29853 I would point to what the church has done historically. Work on an individual level. The early Christians took care of abandoned infants and regularly defied the culture through their good works. They didn’t stage a protest, storm the government buildings, and demand their rights-they just did what was right. When Christians saw their loved ones being killed, they wished them a safe journey to heaven. If we have voting rights, we should use them. If we have positions of influence, we should use them. Again, I’m not saying that focusing on the gospel and participation in politics are mutually exclusive. What I am saying is that the primary function of government isn’t preaching the gospel and the primary function of the church isn’t to enforce laws. We’ve already seen the consequences of both. There may come a day where Christians will have to choose between fighting for their personal rights and obeying Christ. In Revelation, God lays it out for us: those who are supposed to be killed by the sword will be killed by the sword…this calls for patience/endurance. Not an uprising or voting…just quiet patience and acceptance.
Ultimately, a lot of this is case by case for individuals. Sometimes the right thing is using politics to do good. Other times it’s entrusting a situation to God’s care because he is the King of all governments and will one day judge them. What should never happen though, is watering down the gospel in the name of our freedom on this earth or thinking that winning in politics fixes the problem. I highly recommend Googling “doctrine of the two kingdoms” for a more thorough explanation.
@@Crym123
1. I never said the government defines morality.
2. Taxes are a part of the law and yet Jesus said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” I’m not saying we can’t criticize laws or use our rights and freedoms. Not at all. Just don’t mix it up with the gospel and the primary purpose of the church. Look up “doctrine of the two kingdoms.” Luther lays it out a lot better than a UA-cam comment
The church is overflowing with apostasy, yet we want to deny what happens after the apostasy and rely on focusing on anything related to politics. WAKE UP!
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Hi,
Its not that the church is in apostasy, Christianity is apostate to the new testament, from, really the 2nd century AD, up to when Constantine pulled the bible + paganism together. The rest is history. Christianity's doctrines are antithetical to the new testament, ( one man pastor, Vicar, Roman priest etc,etc,) everything outside of the person of the Messiah Jesus!
Christianity has always been the wolf, snake, and the dragon, waiting presently in the shadows, to reemerge, as the final Antichrist religion along with a host of other belief systems!
I was accused of being a “Christian nationalist” for making the Biblical claim that Christ is the only way to be right with God. Go figure.
Oh my gosh how dare you *sigh*
Nothing wrong with being a nationalist.
Well, we live in a society where belief in the bible makes one "Literally Hitler" so no real surprise there.
@Jeremy Todd Thank you...
@@pat2430 Your love of your own country should not blind you to its faults or its sins, or make you unjust or unfair to other nations, or the people within them. It should not make an idol out of your nation. It should not make you proud. Maybe it should make us grieve a little; blessed are them that mourn, right?
Follow up this podcast with an understanding of the Kindom of God compared to nationalism
There will always be a religion behind the laws and norms that govern us, but Christians seem to be unique in that often, they’d rather have any other religion but their own be the one.
Exactly, im surprised how many "Christians" on here are commenting that they would prefer to live under pagan Nationalism and pagan law instead God's law. The American church is definitely spoiled and blind - any immigrant who has lived under non-christian nationalist rule will finds these comments absurd
Once again, I appreciate how Neil simplifies the controversial points and exclaims their logical entailment.
I am a Christian; I believe teaching the bible to those that believe is acceptable but holding the world of unbelievers to that standard is unacceptable. The world should be exposed to Christianity, but they should also be free to choose either to accept it or reject it. As a Christian WE are called to live by God's word and spread God's word to the world. But the world is not bound to accepting God's word. It would be better for the world if they did, but they are by no means obligated until such time they receive God's word with conviction.
Do you believe governments should not have laws or just that those laws should be based on something other than godly character?
If genecide becomes a matter of public policy (as it had in many cases where collectivism have taken over, from Germany to China), should Christians oppose that policy or should we just let the world be the world?
@@Crym123 In I believe every case in the bible. Where the world perceived to do harm to God's chosen people. They failed except when God allowed them to suffer loss for their pride or rebellion. It is no different today the course we are on is being directed by the authority and sovernity of God. Both believers and non-believers alike we are being developed, refined and filtered for the Kingdom of heaven. All things in this world are temporary. The bible say we are to worship in spirit and in truth. If we worship in tradition and in lies we will not be saved.
Look in the book of Daniel how many times the government said to this thing against God or die. And God delivered. If we are afraid of man we have no place in heaven. Life is of God. And eternal life is with God. All death is payment for sin. Even the second death.
I don't know if I answered your question but it I think it is where the conversation was going. Let me know if I totally missed it.
@@Crym123 Jesus allowed Rome to be Rome. He didn't advocate for that empire to change their undoubtedly unjust actions. As christians we are to be the light as directed by His Word. We should stand against anything that goes against God's Word but we can't force the world to live as we want them to. God doesn't force them so why should we?
The bible specifically say preach the good news to the world if they will not hear it shake the dust of for feet and leave with them.
Do not drag the non believers back with you. Take no prisoners do no harm. They have their reward.
Hiding behind the Bible is not going to save you from the oncoming persecution. When was your last missionary trip to the inner cities of America?
If you really think that God would frown upon America for banning abortion and gay marriage and promoting Christianity, I don’t know what to tell you
I do, you're using God as a false idol to make it in your own image....
@@einarabelc5 are you suggesting that God doesn't hate abortion and gay marriage? Are you even a Christian?
This comment is definitely not a good representation of what was said in this episode.
I do think though, we need to remember that only the gospel changes hearts. The law may change behaviors, but resentment will only build and breed rebellion unless people’s hearts also change. Which is one of many reasons why Christ came to die first before coming to judge and reign. Our primary goal is to make disciples. He will enforce and change what we can’t. In short, making laws is good but it’s a band aid to the real problem of sin.
God frowns upon all of humanity because we're all sinners. We're all rebels against Him, every day of our lives. He is going to pour out His wrath on all nations because of that.
The only way of escape from that is not any national or political policy, but the rebirth of individuals in saving faith and repentance in Christ.
Anyone who is truly concerned about Christian Nationalism will BEGIN by discarding their concern where it doesn't exist.
The government limits evils from the outside whereas Christianity changes people’s heart and that is how to change a nation.
Sure Christianity teaches people to hate others for their sexuality, skin colour, gender identity, etc., and seeks to rights away from those who not Christian.
@@gusmonster59 Please give scriptures to back up your claim
@@gusmonster59 If you can provide us the Biblical Text where God commands Christians to hate people based on their sex, gender, economic status, etc. we can probably meet half way.
@@gusmonster59 emm thats not what it teaches, thats what the people added to it. But those that have done these things will have hell to pay!
Christians should not get involved in the worlds politics. Thats a trap. God said pray for your leaders. He told us just to share the gospel. Not force the bible on people who dont even know God.
If we all just pray, and do what God says he will do,did,done the rest.
Also This world is going to pass away. Its going to get very bad. So we should be trying to live in a way that shows a difference between us and the world.
The difference should be christ in us. The cultural norms like racism shouldnt be in the church. The fact that she wasnt aware of Christian nationalism, (white nationalism) to minority groups. Is mind boggling.
"Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34
The idea that Christians shouldn't advocate for Christian policies is contrary to the Bible, and yet I see it espoused by many Christians. But at the same time, we shouldn't get caught up in trying to establish a theocracy. Our focus should be on evangelism and spreading Christian values and ethics, not only on the community level but also on the national level
"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.'" John 18:36
Christians should not play in the politics of the world. We are to create the kingdom culture within the body if Christ.
We are called to bring heaven to earth. This is Gods earth. Not mans.
@@annieaviles4760 told by who? According to which scriptures?
@@annieaviles4760 No, Jesus does that when he returns. We were told to go and make disciples of all nations. Imposing Christian laws on unbelieving, unrepentant people is not making disciples, but hypocritical Pharisees. Hearts must change first.
@@Window4503 don’t take the Word of God out of context. Jesus literally prayed for Gods will to be done on earth as in heaven. We are not to sit on the sidelines. This is Gods earth. We are to occupy it with His righteousness.
I'm so glad that you're covering this topic; it is so divisive in my spirit and in the church!
What exactly is devisive? Not every separation is inherently bad. Even God separates things. That's how we can understand a logical world.
What are you afraid of? Arguing? Geez, look at you, even using Neo-marxist terms like "divisive" they really have taken over people's minds.
It's simple there is no salvation through politics or government systems or man's effort to build a utopia here on Earth. Jesus Christ is our only way to Salvation. His Kingdom is what we should be focused on.
Few Americans can ponder the disappearance of states. Adults among them should learn. Europeans understand the disappearance of states, constitutions, empires and currencies, because that happens to them over and over again. I met Bishop Tutu in person helping (mostly) Anglicans destroy South Africa's racist apartheid colonial settler state. We won. We destroyed South Africa's imaginary apartheid racist future. Millions of colonizers lost everything. Bishop Tutu won a Nobel Prize and was promoted to Archbishop. We sometimes call leaders like MLK or Desmond Tutu "civil rights leaders," but that is an error. They are Christian Reverends and Bishops. Their armies are Christians. And they win against great statist evils, where others have tried and failed. I am pretty sure these matters are far too violent, unpleasant, frightening and nuanced for most Americans to ponder, or even for many Christians to ponder. State laws change all the time. States disappear all the time. I also lived in post-Soviet Ukraine under complete state and currency collapse. The Body of Christ, meaning the church, is immortal. Jesus did not bless the peace lovers. He blessed the peacemakers. I don't think most Americans understand any of this. But this is how things are.
As a political refugee that's been through two dictatorships I'll take a "nationalist" Christian who's "afraid" of losing their country over the alternative, a Bolshevik in disguise deranged idiotic "regressive" christian who's never suffered the consequences of their idiotic ideology any day.
With that said, it's described in The Bible that the wealth and prosperity and sense of unity and safety that nationalists idealize makes humanity FORGET about God making themselves their own idols by using falsehood in their worshiping and that the end result is the judgement that the Globalist side then brings.
The plans to have a one world government are not only described in revelation but attempted throughout every single empire that humanity has known. So the cycle repeats again and again. In modern times Woodrow Wilson started it with the League of Nations, being disrupted by Germany and Japan, it was picked up by the UN, being disrupted by The Cold War and is now in vogue again with the World Economic Forum and the Big Reset,being disrupted by China. Will they make an alliance and finally bring forth the events of Revelations? It seems so, which is why everyone has their feathers ruffled.
Great reply! Thanks for sharing your insight. I agree with you!
Christian Nationalism is a heresy.
Here’s what puzzles me about Right-wing evangelicals, they claim to be confident in their faith and that when they die they’re sure that they will go to heaven. But their whole worldview is based off fear and the idea of some oppressive government that is out to persecute and murder Christians. Even if these supposed superstitions are true. Why even care? If I was a Christian I’d be anxious to die.
As a christian living in India and seeing the rise of hindu nationalism and seeing how scary and destructive it is to harmony and equality, I can tell you how awful it is to see its similarities with christian counterparts in "Christian countries". Whenever a faith system becomes a majority, its followers tend to exert their rights over others but it is sad to see christians do that because we are taught the opposite and not to seek power in this world. Thanks for covering this.
Equality is an illusion, there's only a Hierarchy. You call yourself a Christian but your ideas are those of a liberal woke neo-marxist, not even your own. You don't know the first thing about the history of Europe, The Crusades, what happened AROUND the Crusades, what happened to Central and Eastern Europe countries during Edi: World War II. The Golden Horde, and so on. You wouldn't have seen Christianity reach your country if those Europeans countries wouldn't have been nationalistic at some point and the Crusades happened, you'll be a Muslim instead, the kind that dies at a young age by behading.
You don't know how privileged you are, when you can't even tell the difference between genuine nationalism and nazism, which is what you probably are talking about, plenty of them in your country. So blissfully ignorant.
It's idiotic to think that a WORLD ORDER of all nations with human defined "equality" is Biblical when you have The Tower of Babel, but is also idiotic to think that if that ever happens on earth is ANYTHING but the unfolding of Revelation, the Anti-Christ and the New World order.
It's also idiotic and un-biblical to think that imposing nationalism as an IDOL above God is a good thing.
They're BOTH forms of human idolatry but at least nationalism aligns with God's command of having nations separated until Revelation comes to pass.
Spot on Anju. I live across the border from where you come from and here we have problems with Buddhist fundamentalists. I am a Christian and been attacked and vilified many times over and over again by the few Christians in my Country for been a Lesbian. Yes fundamentalists from all religions are equally ignorant and dangerous.
@@einarabelc5 lol. Shouldn’t you be planning another insurrection?
@@streetsdisciple0014 Says the gringo who plays video games all day. I don't have to plan anything, I can just see the effects of Moral Stupidity break things apart as God intended, just like Dietrich Bonhoeffer described about German citizens during the Nazi occupation of Germany.
Because despite all those advanced video games you can only see in black and white.
@@einarabelc5 I’ve seen your bombastically inept comments to know your binary thirst for nationalism is anything but grey. Go build yourself a detention day care camp and play the silly game of tribalistic nationalism.
Jesus: "My kingdom is not of this world (aeon)"...
Jesus: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sin"...
I don't see how this could be "overblown". The gospel, mixed with political control measures, _always_ subverts the gospel to the interests of political power and control, and that slanders God, and makes the gospel seem unreal, whether the merging is on the left, or on the right. It has definitely worked that way in our country.
But there is also this: whenever the gospel has _seemed_ merged with political power ("seemed", because God is not conceding His actual gospel to the wills of politicians), people do not feel safe in separating spiritual matters from political ones, to take them both seriously ,on their own, relative merits. It is difficult to think of believing unto salvation, when believing could get you killed, but it might be easier than to see the true gospel, when it is hidden by the demand of power that you appear to submit to their chosen gospel, to prove yourselves the good guys, deserving to live and prosper (although it's only the "Noble Lie" to them). That makes the gospel into a matter of coercion, even though anyone who'd do that, doesn't care about the salvation of any souls. We cannot serve two masters, not even both our salvation, through faith in Jesus, and saving our own skin from persecution. So the demands of politics, that we knuckle under to their power, and say that we believe, makes it very hard to think clearly about the salvation of our souls. The coercion slanders God, as if He is in agreement with it, which He is not, but it is very hard to see this. It is possible to see it, because the Holy Spirit is drawing all men (all people) unto Jesus, but the pressures of living under coercion make this very hard to see. I don't know how anyone who takes the gospel, and the salvation of souls, seriously, can approve of the churches coming under political control, no matter how nicely the politicians _pretend_ to love Jesus. It's just a terrible stumbling block to put people under: God is simultaneously righteous, holy and good (the Bible and the Holy Spirit affirm this), and there is this evil, corrupt, cruel, devilish thing, right next to it, pretending to be the same thing, from the will of the same God. The biblical name for something horrible to see like that, is "abomination", and also "blasphemy".
We need to pay attention to the matter of the "whore" in Revelation 17 & 18, especially when there are "Kingdom Now!" Dominionists, selling a movement they dare to call "Seven Mountains of Influence" or "...of Culture", in which they say that God wants us to *take over* these seven "mountains" or "spheres" of influence or culture, and "occupy" them. The "whore", the false church in Revelation 17 & 18, _sits on_ seven mountains, and they want us to _"occupy_ the Seven Mountains" of world-ly influence, of which the world is not really sitting there, willing to hand their worldly power over to us. But not to worry, according to 7M, as well as the Latter Rain movement''s "Joels Army" and "the Manifest Sons of God", God commands us to _take over the world_ *for Jesus,* after which, He will eventually show up, to sign off on our work. This departs very radically from what the Bible says, that Jesus will _do this, alone,_ when He returns in the clouds, just as He ascended. And this is interwoven with the very "NAR Apostles" movement, decried in this and other discernment ministries, UNTIL the moment that right wing politics' interests in controlling the evangelicals become threatened, and then, not a word against the heresy is spoken. That is not right, and whoever really believes in Jesus, knows it.
So, this doesn't prove that the seven mountains in Revelation are _identical_ to the 7M movement, but it does show that this movement does not care about what Revelation says, and this at a time when the world is looking more and more like the descriptions of just before the Lord returns. If there was ever a time to be careless about sitting on a political seven mountains, this isn't it.
So I don't see how any of this could possibly be "overblown", any more than the rest of the spiritual corruption and destruction of our times.
Amen.
There are several books to read on this topic - Sarah Posner "Unholy" , Katherine Stewart "The Power Worshipers" & Michelle Goldberg "Kingdom Coming" , The Rise of Christian Nationalism..
Most of the research I've done on this besides Goldbergs work are post Trump admin. articles .
Thank you for bringing to light the Truth about America not being founded on Christianity.& the falsehood of the Constitution being a Divinely inspired. document.
Great conversation, with on point statements. I love my country and I am proud of its history. But I am a follower of Christ first. The gospel and life in eternity is much more important than politics and the short time here on earth. We are commanded to go out and make disciples, not policies.
We are called to stand with and promote God ways and values too, and that includes the society that we are in. You cannot disconnect your beliefs/morals and politics; that is part of discipleship. God cares about how we vote and the causes we promote
@@inspirationtomoveforward6319 I agree we need to vote and be informed, not to stick our heads in the sand. But in studying the Bible, I realized that God places the rulers for His plan. Read the books of Kings, you will see for yourself. The problem is not politics, but sin. We are not a Christian nation. Yes, we blame politics and policies but look around you, the vast majority either don’t go to church or go to a church based on worship for themselves. We care more about a football game than in Bible study learning to know our God. We care more about people liking us rather than warning them about their wages of their sin. We ignore our own sins. We sit in our phones, or in front of a tv instead of worshipping the one true God. We made idols of ourselves. So yes, our government is evil but we, as His children, need to first repent and obey the one Holy God. If you want change, read the books of Kings and know who our God is.
But the subject at hand is politics, and to say that we aren’t supposed to make policies is incorrect. Read the story of Daniel to get a picture of how policies effect people. Read Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Judges, and the other Old Testament books that deal with law and rules, etc. Can you read those and think that God doesn’t have any thought about what laws a society lives by. Look at history when Hitler was taking over: did it matter how the church voted and how his policies effected peoples lives? Yes, it did!
Yes, there are too many people may care more about material things that will pass one day, but there are too many people in the church that promote stuff like what you are saying that lead to no action or the wrong actions being done and more evil happens because of it. Being disciples doesn’t mean we are so heavenly minded that we don’t care about policies and law here on earth.
@@inspirationtomoveforward6319 the first and greatest thing we are asked to do is to love the lord with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbour as ourself Everything else will come from that. Don't recall a verse asking us to stand up and promote God. I think he's quite capable of being who he is without our capitalist promoting efforts. Rather than promoting God's ways and values, live them and you'll promote Him by doing so.
We are also told to teach the nations to obey the laws, even in the OT it’s said that the coast lands await for his Torah or law. But if God’s will is to punish America and have his people inherit what’s left of it I won’t mind letting it go, as much as I don’t want to see people fall with the nation and their false ideologies and religions there’s going to be a whole lot of people that fall
You might not be aware of how common the belief is, that “America was chosen by God.”
Of course it was, it was chosen to START Globalization and to bring people over so they could listen to The Gospel. What's wrong with that? Is dangerous to be vague because you can fall either left or right.
@@einarabelc5 for what it's worth Globalization started way before America. But I think it is a fair statement to say that the various religious "awakenings" that became huge in the United States had a massive effect on missionary work around the world.
Sorry Alisa but honestly, given the trend of comments here, this video did more harm than good. By being engaged in this conversation while utterly lacking an understanding of Totalitarianism and the suffering caused by Tyranny puts you in no position to talk about Nationalism in the current context of the advancement of Globalization. You've committed the error of hitting everything with the same hammer when you even haven't enunciated the problem accurately.
Both of you perhaps inadvertently have confused people and given them an excuse to continue to sit on their laurels and do nothing for The Gospel in the context of the oncoming judgement. Humankind belongs within history, politics is part of that. This was a very narrow focused conversation that assumes a lot of things, like the status quo. Therefore people think making a choice about this is like picking a menu meal. It is not, this is way more serious and it requires someone with a better understanding of things BESIDES theology before theology is applied. Neither you nor Neil were careful enough while doing that. It is not that you were utterly wrong, it's that you weren't precise and through rough enough.
You both missed a whole dimension of the problem. This was poorly executed, ill prepared and requires a re-visit. You should start by researching Jordan Peterson and his Maps of Meaning lectures, even his inaccurate Bible Lectures. If there's something that he actually understands right to a certain intellectual degree is Totalitarianism. Neither you nor your professor get that yet. Instead you assumed we will always live in a Democracy without even understanding where that comes from.
Jordan Peterson is part of the problem haha. Listen to Jesus instead of that lunatic.
Well, my Question is why are "Christians playing in the politics of the world. No man can serve two masters.
I've gotten to the point where I can't in good conscience vote for either major party, at least not at the national level.
Ditto!
Then you'll pay the consequences. Grow up!!
Especially with so many rhinos
There is neither jew nor gentile. But at the same time we still need a national identity to be called a "nation". We as a country no longer have an identity.
Yes you do, they want you to ignore it, that's not the same thing as not having it.
Hebrews 13:14 KJV - For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
I am at a loss for words. It is very sloppy to do a Google search for terms. I took out my large 1990 encyclopedic edition lexicon that probably isn’t perfect, but free of the wokism of today. Nationalism is defined as “devotion to one’s nation, advocacy of national unity or independence.” This fits perfectly with the fact that God created nations to protect against the satanic idea of globalism. No genuine Christian would believe in Christian nationalism. We all simply believe that nations are blessed when they turn to God. We don’t use that as a tool to advance politics. Genesis 18:18, Genesis 35:11, Psalms 67:4, 1 Chronicles 16:24, Isaiah 26:15, Mark 13:10. Nations are important. Most Christians I know that supported Trump recognized that God placed him there, as He does all leaders. To reject that, is to reject truth. We worship God alone and lift up nations that follow Him, as well as encourage those who don’t follow God to not reject Him at their detriment.
You're one of the few smart people in this thread. There are many idiotic woke people who pretend that are Christian, don't know the first thing about World War II (much less Nazis) and vote democrat because it makes them feel good about themselves. Then hide behind Scripture while ignoring the actual patterns described in scripture which you alluded to. Instead of comparing such patterns with the actual events of WWII EAST of Gdasnk Poland, they compare everything nationalistic to Nazism. The poor fools, they couldn't conceive of something like the massacre of Katyn and how Stalin used Germans as an escape goat for his own evil. That's exactly what they subscribe to btw: Nationalism MUST equal Nazism. So if they see a nationalistic Polish person, who's ancestors had to endure 53 years of occupation by both the Germans and the Russians and whose population was exterminated by eliminating all intellectuals, military and opposition up to the point 25% of Poles died during that period, they could never have the courage to admit that those Poles are nationalistic for a reason.
I consider them the most deplorable kind of coward, like an Ostrich, living their own lie about how the world really works.
I congratulate you by actually committing an act of THINKING.
Dietriech Bonhoeffer theory of stupidity, well worth checking out.
My faith in God alone carries me through these challenging days. God commands us to pray for all those in authority. Those in authority now all over the world are wicked and we should be praying for them, repenting as a nation and turning from our wicked ways. Only then will we be blessed. God will accomplish his purposes through every leader. Sometimes it is to chastise us and other times it is to bless us. May God give us the discernment to know the difference. 🙏
Thank you. Your comment is a breath of fresh air in the midst of suffocating progressive lies.
@@einarabelc5 thank you for sharing your knowledge. It is incredible that people don’t see what is right in front of them. Blessings!
@@ReeceS6419 thank you! Yes, we must pray for all you mentioned!
it's like this, there are ten commandments, four of which deal with our duty to God and six of which deal with our duy to each other, and whereas the duties to God are matters of individual conscience that should not be regulated by the government (therefore the federal government cannot tell you to worship God or which god to worship) and whereas the government has the duty to regulate our duty to each other, like fighting crime such as murder, theft, etc, it therefore follows that those duties that are matters of conscience and worship that are dealt with under the establishment clause of the first amendment....when we want to reinterpret the first amendment in such a way so that the establishment clause gets modified or removed to promote the church's "right" to control the government, that's Christian Nationalism, which is promoted by Dominion Theology (seven moiuntains mandate) and theonomy (particularly secterian/theological laws should be the law of the country)
America is part of the global stage. God is moving into the final hour before His return for His Bride. God raises up Kings and sets them down.
Great episode!! Thank you Alisa!
Here we have the problem of defamatory "labels." Just like CRT uses the claim of "racism" to shut down the debate, those who callously use the term "Christian Nationalist" also use it to shut down the discussion. Again, you could think of Dr. James Lindsay's definition of CRT. "Call everything racist (Christian Nationalism) until you have the power." My quote may not be exact, but it's very close. Pursuing our rights as endowed by our Creator and enshrined in our Bill of Rights is not Christian Nationalism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, or any other "ia or ism" label.
On the contrary, the Bill of Rights is the primary source for what makes the United States different from any other country that has ever existed on the face of the earth. The idea of using "labels" is a small step towards tyranny in order to remove the humanness or the imago Dei of a group, any group, to assert power over them. And it is all about who has the power. Please do not conflate my use of "label" with an individual's identity; as in (ESV) Acts 11:26b, "And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians," or a citizen of the United States is an American. Granted, these are only partial descriptors of the entirety of a person's identity. However, a person's identity must align with reality.
As previously mentioned, the Bill of Rights confers our rights as originating from God, not from the government, period. Therefore, these "Rights" are conferred upon every American by God regardless of whether you are a "Christian" or not. And whether you are a Christian or an Atheist, the "Rights" equally apply; you need to be thankful that these "Rights" do not originate with the government because when they originate with the government, the government can take them away.
Was waiting for you guys to mention when Biden said on Thanksgiving 2020, "America is a covenant". That was the same speech he quoted the "palmist".
Yes, God's Not Dead We the People is living proof of that...
I had not heard the term “Christian nationalism” before but have been impacted by the idea heavily-especially during the Trump presidency.
I was in a deep state of uncertainty and confusion about how politics and laws are to be thought of from a Christian perspective. I’ll have to look more into Neil as I found what he said he very insightful.
Thanks for covering this subject!
Whenever people accuse me out Christian Nationalism because of my view on Creationism or some other theological conservative view point, I tell them I don't believe in voting due to 1st Samuel 8, so muh your politics.
I was a Lefty politically most of my adult life, then become a Conservative back in 2010. Conservatism and the culture wars is what led me to an interest in the Bible and Biblical ethics, which led me to surrender to Christ as Lord and Savior in April of 2011.
From there, I discovered Apologetics, which just helped reinforce my faith, as it showed me the evidence for it.
In my experience, those on the Left are the ones who are putting forth their politics with the most religious fervor, so it's ironic that they use labels like "Christian Nationalism." It's definitely overblown, and is used as a tactic.
Who is more nationalist?
1. A person who wants leniency for people who burned down businesses, looted, locked police officers in a building and set it on fire, and invaded government buildings.
2. A person who wants leniency for people who peacefully filed into the capital (The People's House) and took selfies.
1. The first group threatened citizens across the nation and directly caused death and destruction of livelihoods.
2. The second group interrupted our government but caused no direct death and relatively small destruction of public property.
Who is more nationalistic? The person who defends a government building and is outraged that people with personal police were scared and inconvenienced or the person who cares about all individuals impacted by riots (citizen, immigrant, foreign national).
David French's outrage over Jan. 6 was far more intense than the outrage of lives like David Dorne who died at the hands of rioters in cities across America. It appears French is and Elitist Nationalist while the people who were against anarchical riots were populists.
It's quite interesting how you minimize the damage caused in Jan 6 to suit your world view
To compare a whole summer of riot to a single day even in Jan 6 is also disingenuous
The summer riot and looting was wrong
Personally I think Jan 6 was much worse because peaceful transfere of power is what gives us a democracy.
Without that we lose the country
To have an attack on democracy base on a lie is much worse
Again the riots in the summer was also very wrong
@@Ashantia35 I am not suggesting Jan 6 was right or good. I am suggesting that the outrage was overblown when you compare what actually happened to the narrative. The transfer of power was never truly threatened. Our lawmakers were scared and inconvenienced. Most people who entered the capital did it for a photo op. There were extremely few weapons. This was not a serious attempt at taking over the government as the crowds were unarmed and literally followed the cordoned area in a single file line.
My point is that there is a contingency of Christians who made excuses for the destruction to individuals throughout a summer of destruction but seemed to think Jan. 6 was horrific. I would argue that harsh sentences for little old ladies who took selfies in the capital is far more dangerously nationalistic than harsh sentences for people who murdered innocents and destroyed livelihoods. Why do some Christians look away when injustices are perpetuated on individuals but go on about the "historic" nature of the "insurrection." The capital has been invaded before, as the Supreme Court was attacked during the Kavanaugh hearings. Funny how it was okay to disturb that government proceeding because it was in the name of protecting sacred abortion.
My point, I fear the tyrannical style nationalism that will do everything to protect the government while standing by to let cities burn. Hitler didn't care about individual rights. He took them at every turn. He did protect his government with the horrors of imprisonment and death camps.
And, are you aware the police let the rioters in? There are videos of the people being waved in. Also, doors had to be released from the inside. People definitely did wrong, but selective prosecutions, lack of law enforcement, and the governments unwillingness to release evidence to the public suggests that either this was preventable or even a set up.
@@springray2323 Both sides did wrong, but I am concerned about the response. The government is taking every opportunity to jail rioters young and old for inconveniencing them. So many people lost their livelihoods and some lost their lives without any justice during that summer.
Which kind of nationalism do you fear more?+ The type that will do anything to protect the lawmakers who are not in immediate physical danger (they have guards, bunkers, etc.) against people with flags.
+ The type who sit by and watch cities burn, making excuses for destruction.
Hitler didn't care about individual rights and businesses. He took weapons, Business, and encouraged riots against his own people. He jailed and murdered anyone who threatened his government. That is the kind of nationalism to fear, not the kind with crazy, overzealous unarmed people wrapped in flags and wearing horns breaking into the People's House.
@@eurekahope5310
It's interesting how you continue describe and minimize Jan 6 insurrection
To say police let people in indicates to me where you get your news sources and information from. Whatever spin that suits your narrative you accept it
The police let people in on other side of the building to divert the crown away from where government officials were. It's was a strategy since they were overwhelmed. There was no way the police available could have kept all the angry mob away
Also this may sound unfair but ....
Attack on government officials who represent people of this country is far more serious than an attack on individuals ordinary citizens
That is why if a foreign country assassinate our president, the whole country is going to war but the same reaction cannot be said if an ordinary citizen is assassinated.
This not because a President is a better human than the ordinary citizens but its because the president represent the whole country
That's why an attack on the capital where our elected officials were threatened including the Vice president, is considered a much more serious event.
Cavanaugh Supreme Court protest was not life threatening. Jan 6 was and we all heard kill/ hang Mike Pence chants in the crowd. What do you think would have happened if they got hold of Pence?
@@Ashantia35 Oh the irony of claiming my sources are unreliable. There is actual video, pictorial, and court sworn evidence of the following:
1. The police stood by and allowed the protestors to enter.
2. Many protestors walked in an orderly, single file line following a cordoned partition to enter the capitol.
3. The doors that were opened are secured with magnetic locks that can only be opened from the inside using a security code.
4. The size of the protest was known and security was not increased to meet the logical need for additional law enforcement.
I have never said the people should have breached the building, nor have I suggested the anger and violence are excusable. I simply point out that it is far more dangerous to have a government who looks away when cities are burning but treat largely non-violent rioters like dangerous insurrectionist who are deprived of rights. They don't care about the citizenry, but will act irrationally when they "feel" threatened. Please note, there were not nearly enough weapons nor organization to come close to causing harm to Congress or the vice president. Those who know basics know that there is security throughout the capitol as well as underground tunnels and bunkers.
Again, the rioters who caused damage or committed violence should be prosecuted accordingly. Christians should roundly condemn causing harm, damage, and injury. But we need to look at the big picture to see what is more dangerous, a government who will use every resource to get justice (revenge) against those who breached their business while ignoring the loss of life and livelihood across the nation, or a group of ridiculous rioters without weapons, wearing flags, and screaming threats without any real possibility of following through. History shows us that governments who protect their own at the expense of their citizenry are a grave danger. Fascism is the surrendering of individual rights for the good of the nation. Who is asking for the surrender of rights? Who is growing their security while lightening penalties for crimes against individuals? Dig deep and really think who is more dangerous? Crazy "patriots" acting like fools or a growing government given cart blanche to protect themselves?
Do you know what I think is a strawman? Conflating peoples criticisms of Christian nationalism to abortion laws, rather than things like Muslim bands and forcing kids to pray in school.
Thank you. Especially when right now the supreme court is deciding a former public school coach (who is lying) while suing his former school district, swearing he only prayed in private and of course none of the students felt pressured to join. But we all know if that had been a Muslim coach leading prayer on the field Christians would lose their minds. (Joseph Kennedy is the coach).
I recommend Opening Arguments who hosted an episode with lawyers, using clips from the actual court session.
The ancient Israelite which include king David and the disciples were nationalists. Remember when the disciples were still hoping for Israel to be restored in the ascension of Christ. He didn’t rebuke them. So it’s not necessarily bad
Thats different compared to unbiblical nationalism. Check out e 511 ministries
Israel is god's nation . USA is not. Donald trump is not a man of god . David obeyed the Lord trump doesn't
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 Explain the history of Poland....
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 David killed a man and committed adultery so why you are presently looking at the mans past sins to judge him? Oh because David repented right? So you read ones heart now to say trump never repented? And btw we don’t vote for a pastor but a commander in chief. Beside do you even know his accomplishments for the Christian cause I.e. anti abortion measures, pro life judges and religious freedom? Maybe you don’t because you are too busy listening to pro abortion feminists, liberals, socialists and atheists in the media, entertainment and politics. Oh btw why do you think these Godless bunch hate trump? It’s because he is on the way of their agenda.
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 prove to me that Jesus rebuked their nationalism than referring me to link
Also in regards to the questions being ambiguous or vague, consider the possibility that the answers were not. Consider the possibility the answers addressed this vagueness with detail and Clarity and then once again the authors had to take what they had heard and funnel it back down to a yes or no.
When it comes to Christian Nationalism. Using the word quoted by Voddie Baucham ( you keep saying that I don't think it means what you think it means.) In other words if there is any Christian Nationalism it is related to servants of Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords and King of kings and there is no pride in it only humility.
Looking forward to release - I believe it is a problem not for the reasons political opponents say it is but theologically - it’s idolatry to value ANYTHING above the Lord. “Proud to be an American?” No - I’m humbled to be an American, because I don’t deserve these blessings. I’m proud of being created by the Father, saved by Christ, and having the in dwelling Holy Spirit. 🙏
You don’t have to put country over God to be a nationalist. But worshipping God doesn’t mean you should let your homeland go to ruin. Bad argument
Finally that someone makes sense. That should be the attitude everyone should have. "Proud" to be an American BLINDS you to God.
@@captainfordo1 you don’t know my life’s work Daniel. I’m putting more time and sweat into serving our country as a civilian than many touting “God bless America.”
Yes political and even national idolatry is a thing but it is also commonly used to disparage anyone who dares stand against wokism. True Christianity will be decidedly out of step with both "D" and "R" or any other worldly movement for that matter.
@@einarabelc5 thank you for the kind words - my brother in Christ shared that sentiment with me this year and it blew my mind!
Of the 10 Commandments of Exodus 20, we should only legislate based on the last 6 commandments which covers "love for your neighbor". The first 4 are about your "love for God". Those should not be legislated.
To be proud and grateful to be an American isn't wrong. Especially when our country was founded to be able to praise God freely and give the people freedom, as God has done for us by giving us free will. To be proud of that and this country isn't worshipping this country. And those who are like that do not certainly worship or want a king. We want a servant leader as president. But we got a tyrant.
You can't be proud and grateful. You can be HUMBLED and grateful and then make things better. Proud to be an American is loving the fruit and hating the Tree. Where the Tree is God and the fruit is everything Good that stems from Him. Akin to the Israelite worshiping Mollok. Did you see how "proud" America was during the post WWII era until now?
The 60s, 70s, 80s and so on. The DEGENERACY and Sinfulness this country experienced during those 3/4 of a century of "pride"?
Our country was founded to allow ALL religions and cults to worship freely. Tell me how that faired well with Israel when they allowed Molech and Ba'al worship.
Founded to be able to praise God freely and give the people freedom…by people some of whom owned, beat, raped, and tortured slaves. Riiiiiiggghtt….
@@Lilc97Jax each one of you who is sitting in the judgement seat of God and your words of condemnation for others will be the words God uses to convict you.
@@springray2323 I think religious freedom is biblical because the Bible is clear that to become a Christian one must have an inward transformation in their heart and therefore the state cannot make anyone a true Christian through laws or force. Also the theocracy in Israel was under the old covenant which God made specifically with Israel. Therefore, saying our current government should be like like Old Testament Israel is a problematic and unbiblical argument.
Excellent discussion. During the founding of this country, the clergy had a tremendous influence on civic life and promoting throwing off the tyranny of the king. Even giving speeches in churches. The book "America's Providential History" discusses this and many other important subjects for a biblical view of civic life.
I don't think calling America a covenant nation like Israel is right, but let's be careful. Reading the founders' original writings show how they had hearts toward God and sought Him as they framed the Constitution and led this country I those early years in not insignificant. God HAS blessed our country in many ways and we HAVE contributed to the movement of the gospel across the world. So let's not give these issues short shrift to avoid running into the other ditch. 🤔
2 cents: This one is tricky.....It really is a "woke" buzz phrase that will get even bigger and be a huge stick (especially as it is used by "experts" in studies and media) to intimidate Christians. It's used as a pejorative to hint or flat out charge fascism. But within Christianity, there needs to be a guard against "gospels" that allow politics (left or right) to supercede "The Gospel". As others here have pointed out, there's plenty of apostasy an accompanying bitterness to go around, but has there been enough love, kindness, and humility?...after all, that's how the world will know Christians -- by their love? right?
Well if your theology is how you understand God in the Bible wouldn't that also translate to how you understand the world too? I'm not one of those America is the real isreal types but when conservatives actually get into power don't you think they should actively do things to fight back and discriminate against the other side? Like make gay marriage illegal? And cause problems for leftists and the lgbtq. Because just holding on to the ground when we're in power doesn't seem to be doing anything it seems like conservatives are so stuck on principles where the left is immoral and anti-god and have no principles so we always end up losing in the long run we're not conserving anything if we don't actually fight back. Like no one cares about tax policy when your kids are told they can switch their gender and elementary School. We need to stop giving free speech to Marxist in my opinion.
I would venture to guess that whomever wrote those survey questions slept through their Research Methods class. Extremely poorly designed survey.
They were busy practicing their social skills so they could get to write it. You know how it goes: popularity trumps competency any day.
"whoever" is the correct word here, because it is the subject of the clause
Not true . Most Christians understand that the US is a secular government , and do not wish to ignore the wishes of the founders of the USA .
Is there a difference between using one’s theology to help vs to hurt? Power under (liberal) vs a power over (conservative).
This is covered more in The Myth of a Christian Nation.
What's so ironic about your statement is that classical conservativism is not a "power over" situation at all. And in fact was expressly interested in greatly limiting the power of government over the consent of the people. So this new idea of conservatives wanting to enforce their beliefs on others is not actually conservative or harkening back to the founding father's and the constitution *at all.*
So if anyone says they are a conservative but they advocate for increased government control over the states and over the people, they are actually fascist wolves in sheep's clothing. (and I suspect that there are those pushing this narrative/movement in order to give the left something to fight against and leave the desired synthesis as the end result. For example, this seems to be a good way to ultimately demonize all Christians and classical conservatives - and perhaps a way to allow the state to exorcize greater power to silence and arrest Christian dissenters. Look up the Hegelian Dialectic to see what I'm talking about)
Do people read Scripture? Racial Apartheid was not Christian. Racial Apartheid was based on secular pseudo science. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." - John 3:6.
Not here in the USA
God changes a nation by changing HEARTS ...Holy Spirit revival.....not by laws. Laws and politics and a nations are set up by God to provide order. I am studying the choosing of the kings in 1 and 2 Samuel and the KING is not the same as the president. The people wanted a leader “ like other nations”. God warned about this because politics is about cultural mores not necessarily Biblical! The king was for the people of the chosen nation and today the King is Christ who is over His Kingdom represented by His Christian people IN EVERY NATION. We need to think about the Church in every nation and aline with Christ.
There are no Perfect leaders nor Nations. Don’t make idols of political leaders nor a nation. God allows imperfect leaders and Nations and brings about His will. We are all sinners, imperfect, including how we vote and including our leaders therefore we need to look to Christ first.
God is more concerned about Kingdom building than nation building.
Here are the key questions: Do Christian Nationalists seek to outlaw other faiths? Or force-convert anyone who isn't Christian? Or impose Christianity upon anyone who ascribes to another (or no) faith? If the answer is "no" then by all means carry on. If it is "yes", then we do have a problem here.
Nice work. I am not a Christian but respect it’s tenets big time. I think that democracy, as I conceive it is heavily constrained by monotheism. Not nullified but conditioned by it. If the Greeks invented it, it is important to acknowledge that their religion was not a morally authoritarian one. The morals of the Greek gods were appalling. In that sense man was a measure of all things. The law of men was the higher law. That is the context of democracy as invented. Monotheism proposes a higher law, power and morality. In this sense there is no difference between the three monotheisms. Or, imagining the religions of the world and moral philosophies are only the big three, which is how we tend to think, is, in my case, exclusionary. The US was founded as a monotheism, that is the reality of the west altogether, governed by moral law from above. That is why one cannot say simply. “You are against abortion? Fine. Din’t have one.” And there the matter shall rest. But it doesn’t: the imposition of religion.
Grateful for this video, mostly because I can understand why some church folks think and say what they do. Wish this was available back in 2020 when it was at fever pitch. Perhaps hindsight is 20/20.
As a small s secularist I support students (private citizens) praying in public schools, but I oppose the State mandating prayer in Public school or mandating the reading of scripture in schools. State mandated faith harm citizens and it harms faith.
In Canada we used to have laws prohibiting Jewish people and Catholics from holding jobs or holding office to favour the Orangemen (protestants). We had Eugenics programs to sterilize First Nations people (up until the 1980s) and rounded up thousands of First Nation and Inuit children to Correct them in Church run residential schools. There was also persecution of the Doukhobors (Russian East Orthodox, non-liturgical), These policies harmed citizens and harmed faith in Canada.
Such a great well defined conversation providing clarity! Thank you!!!
Sister Alisa Dr Joe Boot will be the right person to talk to in the subject. Get in the program.
As Christians, our citizenship is with the Kingdom of God, our King is Jesus Christ, and our constitution is the Bible. There are two kingdoms: The Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world. We are ambassadors for Christ, so I DON'T vote or involve myself in politics.
Great conversation!
Great conversation, thanks!
Exodus 20:2-4 NLT
“I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery. “You must not have any other god but me. “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.”
Exodus 20:2-4 NLT
Matthew 22:36-39 NLT
“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?” Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Matthew 22:36-39 NLT
The “You” here is both individual and national. So as someone free’d from sin (egypt) your values would flow towards God’s word and commands. Wider family, community, state and nation in accepting God’s grace through Christ would lean towards “Christian Nationalism”.
Here is the catch though!
Christ showed that those that have the LAW, power and privilege WILL abuse their power and through their power and actions loose the spirit and good of the law. God is the only and final judge and people are weak at being fair and just judges.
This in turn argues against the state and its power to tax, confiscate, abuse its power.
My argument at the end of the day would be against the state as a whole because of the fact that power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts absolutely.
As a South African I’ve seen the abuse of power under both a white Christian national government and now total collapse of the new “all inclusive” democratic government. Both were weak as they are run by people and people are sinners.
The reason that the prodigal son left God was because he wanted to be special. He wanted to be an individual instead of being one with God's love and all of His creation. John 17.20-23
With this individuation and specialism came good and evil, making oneself and his group good and others that are different are evil. Before that, there was no good and evil, just the perfection of God's pure creation. We are all that prodigal son.
Dividing people into races, nations, and religions can follow this same belief in specialness unless you realize we are all one in God.
This smacks heavily of Universalism. This is 100% false. For those who believe sincerely in Christ Jesus "there is no Jew or Gentile". For believers in Christ Jesus we are all one in Christ. Unbelievers are not children of God. They are outside and under the wrath of God until they come to faith in Jesus.
Please stop this Progressive Christianity/Course of Miracles witchcraft nonsense and go read The Tower of Babel. It was GOD who created the division AFTER sin had been going on for a looong time.
To the people in these comments. Christianity is going to continually be associated with the extremist rhetoric if you do not speak out against it. That still doesn’t mean we’re obligated to sincerely include your religion in public policy but you have the responsibility as a representative of your faith to dampen the extremism breeding in your churches. If you fail to do this you’re nothing but complicit in the extremism that is growing.
44:04 is the most important part of this discussion.
As a Black evangelical Christian who grew up in the South, I used to look at Neil with ALL THE SIDE EYE 😒because in other videos I've seen with him (with other white men...) he seemed to be an enabler and warm security blanket for white conservatives who don't want to courageously acknowledge America's past...but he really brought it home at the end @ 49:24: Back to the fact that we are Christians FIRST and we shouldn't be LAZY in resorting to pejoratives like "Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke Woke" and "Christian nationalist"!
He's now gained my respect.👍🏾
We’re the authors aware of your discussion on their book before publishing? Also, were they invited on this episode?
There's a point I have to make here, it is in no way meant as a criticism. I don't have the income to buy all the books, the multitude of books mention on this and so many other UA-cam Channels, and I can guarantee I am just one of a huge number of people in a similar situation, especially with today's cost of living etc. Having said that I have bought a number of books recommended by your Channel, 12 - 15 thereabouts. I love the guy interviewed in this VLOG, he's clearly got a lot of brain matter that matters a lot! I very much want to hear more of him. I'm in another Country, New Zealand, but we have a lot of the same 'stuff' happening here. Tools, it's great to be provided explanations as to how a particular 'thought narrative' can be understood and be provided with tools to respond in a coherent way, that allow me to not fall into I'm right, your wrong (if I don't understand I cannot challenge the opposing narrative, at that stage it is best that I keep quite and not be embarrassed to admit I am ignorant where a particular subject is concerned) . I need an understanding of the narrative before I can hope to offer right Biblical responses to wrong progressive opinions. I got a lot from this VLOG, and the previous VLOG you did with Neil Shenvi. Thank you both, this has been valuable to me! God bless!
It's nearly August and I wonder if you've learned more about Christian nationalism (dominionism) since February. You might want to check out some UA-cams from "Christians against Christian Nationalism." Our US military has been somewhat vigilant about this particularly virulent strain of violent theocrats, but that may change in the coming years.
The title is a bit like asking if the siege on our Capitol on January 6 was an "overblown strawman." The events of that day nearly overturned our government and got a lot more people killed. I recall plenty of "Jesus" banners and some large crosses -- along with the gallows and nooses. I think you WANT to believe it's an overblown strawman. But why?
If your guest has to google the answer, then he has no business being a guest on a show discussing nationalism. My god.
Looking forward to this... Not sure why it was posted so far en advance.
@13:00 .. the key point of this definition for me is the mythology part. For instance, Christian nationalists will say over and over again that the founding fathers were Christian. Any bit of research will obviously show that not to be true.
I am not seeing the link to Neil's review of the book.
God calls His people to love their country His way; not from men's traditions, emotionalism, pride, etc.
God has prescribed in His word how every follower of Christ ought to love his or her country:
1) Honor and respect the king/authorities
2) Obey the laws of the land
3) pay taxes
4) pray for the salvation of those who hold government seats.
To answer the rhetorical question at thumbnail: they always make the muders of babies a political question when it is NOT, abortion is a moral question 100% a moral question.
It would be fascinating to bring N.T. Wright into the discussion of this topic!
He is a progressive christian.
@@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 That's a common allegation about/against him, especially when people listen to or read brief snippets from his work, but one (semi-unfortunate) thing about him is that he takes a while to say things thoroughly.
As a believer who's grown up in the Bible Belt, Christian Nationalism is indeed a real worldview, AND it is hard to define because there's no set criteria for what it looks like. In full disclosure, I may have at some point been one. I grew up in a very patriotic home (nothing inherently wrong in that - I still love my country), attended very patriotic churches, and listened to Rush Limbaugh, Shaun Hannity and Mark Levine for years. I spent many more hours listening to talk radio than I did reading God's Word and building relationships with folks outside my political tribe. I became very tribal. In that type of cultural environment, it's easy to start believing that the United States is the New Israel, we are a sanctified people, and our presidents are anointed leaders as the kings and prophets of old. Thankfully, I was shaken from this bubble during the Trump Era. Watching the behavior of those who call themselves believers these past 4 years has solidified my belief that political and cultural idolatry (aka "Christian Nationalism") is strong in the American Church. I believe it is every bit as bad a diabolical infection as progressive christianity because it often becomes a primary issue over the Gospel. I believe it was said by C.S. Lewis that Satan sends errors in pairs? Examples include: Trump becoming the standard barrier for a moral culture war, January 6th, Robert Jeffress FBC church political rallies, Christians leaving churches and fighting over secondary political like issues infringing upon personal autonomy (very ugly at our church), the charismatic's love of Trump (see Kat Kerr and other like "prophets"), hatred and disdain for international refugees, being labeled WOKE and CRT for advocating for racial justice, the list goes on and on. David French, I think, has done a wonderful job chronicling a lot of these issues. Progressive "christianity" is wicked and so is "Christian" Nationalism. Any worldview that blurs the Gospel and God's Word is diabolical.
And FYI - Neil and I attend the same church.
I’m curious what you think of the book “The American Covenant” by Marshall Foster that Kirk Cameron had been speaking about. I don’t believe it promotes Christian Nationalism the way you define it, but I imagine many will assume it does. I think “divinely influenced” is very different from “divinely inspired”. I don’t think anyone can argue our founding fathers and documents weren’t influenced by God.
Many have made that argument actually. Many books have been published on the topic. Many articles, video essays… I suggest you look into it. Just search the topic “founding fathers were Christian myth” or “our nation was not founded on Christianity”.
No policy is influenced by God himself because that cannot be demonstrated. What can be is whether or not SCRIPTURE influenced policy or documents. If there is no evidence scripture was used to influence a decision, it likely wasn’t, and therefore you cannot claim God did something.
Why even enter into arguments with people who will shape-shift in their supposed analysis and redefine terms halfway through?
Because Postmodernism is the ultimate form of Marxism.
Non-Christian Dennis Prager and Company preaching Prager University conservative politics in Christian pulpits all across the country
In the late 70s, 80s and 90s, "Christian" radio spokespeople, especially Focus on the Family, and others like it, repeatedly preached that we should have the gospel, yeah, right, but *"don't be so heavenly minded you're no earthly good!"* That was spoken a couple of times a week, if not every day, for decades. In other words, what Christianity is about was being subtly or not so subtly changed out from under us: it is about conservative political action.. It's *"what God's doing now",* said the clearly false prophets, who spoke "for" God, when He really said no such thing, and had nothing to do with it, and almost no one said a word against it. Talk about lukewarm.
But when progressives/the "Emergent church" of the 90s & 2000s, preached that we should not be so concerned about the gospel of personal salvation, but about the gospel of works of social justice, they are suddenly upset about the damage to the gospel! If they didn't care about the repurposing of Christianity, under the Right Wing, that was not what they really cared about when it started (back) on the Left.
Why is it like pulling teeth to get Christians to see that we really have no right to do this to the gospel? Neither Right nor Left is on God's side.
But they had this thing of joining forces with unbelievers for "something that really matters": NOT the gospel of salvation--the gospel is "nice, but" _unreal,_ was the tacit message implied by our new, pragmatic masters. So in the name of the unborn, or decency, or whatever, born again Christians joined with "Christians" who hated the whole idea of being born again through faith in Jesus, and bringing up religious differences about such trivialities was bad form. Protestants joined with Catholic and Orthodox, setting aside what apparently didn't really matter, for the sake of what did: realpolitik. Money. Power. They joined with Mormons and Jews in a good cause, and occasionally even with atheists! I remember at least once, when Muslims joined pro-life groups, but that was before 9-11.
It isn't that Christians can't do anything with unbelievers, because I'd certainly join a bucket brigade to put out a fire, whoever else was helping out. It's just that the purpose of Christianity was being reshaped by this movement, exactly as it is by the Left, and as it was bringing down the importance of the gospel, compared to those fought-for political gains, it was a lot more than just helping a good cause.
As a Libertarian, this discussion was quite interesting. I know a lot of people who I believe cross the line to idolizing the United States and wanting to use the government's monopoly on force to impose Christian morals. When I say Christian morals, I mean things like outlawing gay marriage, teacher led prayer in government schools, war on drugs, prostitution etc. I believe it is a matter of how people view the proper role of government. Unfortunately, being that most are raised by government schools, most people are statists, so they look to the government (which is force) for solutions and culture , instead of using the church to INFLUENCE through Christ and the Holy Spirit and using peaceful voluntary transactions.
Excellent discussion
What is being said in the “patriot churches” like pulpit of Jack Hibbs and the amount of viewers worldwide is not a strawman.
Straw Manning would be defining Christian nationalism to a non-broad definition. I prefer the word “us versus them political worldview churches ” to the word “Christian nationalism” myself.
Whatever you wanna call it all roads lead back to Donald Trumpism. You would not be having this episode apart from him.
Wasn't there the same issue back with GWB?
@@Jessees902 Yes, the same accusations were common when George W. Bush was popular. They even made similar accusations with Mike Huckabee.
Progressives, where the personal is political, have been accusing anyone who is Christian as "being too political" because they aren't progressive enough throughout my lifetime.
It's just a manipulation tactic to keep Christians quiet while they wield state power against the church.
Well said. Fellow Christians need to call it as it is. It's no different than when the nazis claimed to be christians and Hitler as their so called christian leader. People need to see through this deception instead of trying to justify,intellectualize and beat around the bush of what is obvious to those who aren't deceived by trumpism.
Hilarious. Have you missed the past century of Christian nationalism trying to override the government? It’s takes trumpism to open your eyes? Ignorance must be blissful.
"Christian Nationalism" is one of the reasons why I went Christian Anarchism, were Jesus is King and He created the universe in 6 days less then 10K years ago. And I take 1st Samuel 8 much further then most Christians.
Alisa, off topic but what do you think of women preachers?
Neil makes a good point about Bidenʻs and Harrisʻs use of religious language; however, please note that no believer in the first amendment approves those actions. Also, those are not Christian Nationalist actions because neither of those politicians wants a Christian nation; they are simply pandering to an assumption that most people react favorably to religious-sounding language.
I'm really trying to understand this topic. It's very very confusing and disturbing.
Fun thing, I wonder if you'll ever make a video with Joel Webbon again...
This was great well put
It’s the same with all these shows in that they talk in such general terms but will never come out the real pastors that caused the problems example so few of shows like this that are incredible will say anything about the Kenneth Copeland‘s of the world but they will speak in a roundabout way so those who are experiencing this know who they’re talking about and that’s the same with this subject Christian nationalism example go to any assembly of god church in there you will find Christian nationalism and I’m so sure of so many others but we need shows like this who has credibility to call these people out in the harm that they are causing
Why do we never here the term "Christian Communist "?
Because there’s no such thing. Communism is an inherently materialistic and atheistic worldview that goes directly against nearly every orthodox Christian belief.
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Hi-ALISA;
Beautifully done.
Thank you for following-up and sharing your interview with NEIL-SHENVI - brilliantly done.
I can see you genuinely expanding your cognizance to more clearly and precisely parse your
‘biblical’ understanding
and argumentation.
Love you in His Name always.
…
.
~
There will not be a Christian Nation,till the day our Lord and Saviour. Returns
Excellent Work
Many Christians do not know the difference between Judaism and Christianity.
Love in Judaism - Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 5:43; Matthew 19:19; Matthew 22:37-39; Hebrews 7:11; 2 Corinthians 3:7-15.
Love in Christianity - Matthew 5:44; John 13:34; John 15:12; Galatians 5:22; 1 Corinthians 13; Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 8.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Very helpful, thank you.
Neil did make a good argument for evangelical Christianity and against christian nationalism. But he is not an expert in this matter( after all when does a chemist started giving lessons on political theology).
While agreeing with him on some topics, I would say he missed out on issues of christian complicity and normativity. I have never encountered anybody from other faith or religion as vociferous and hedonistic as Christians. When questioned on their eschatological stance, most Christians argue they believe in a exclusive Christian kingdom that Christ inaugurate.
I agree ‘Taking America back for God’ has issues with definitiveness- they stayed away from exclusive claims- but the authors have given apt reasons why they formulated those questions and what they couldn’t cover. Neil purposely forgot to address those.
I agree that many Christians have a dangerous and flawed eschatology, focusing on a worldly 1000 year kingdom and the rapture, but those same Christians are also the ones that blindly support Israel: Christian Zionists. And if one studies the history of those eschatological ideas, one will pretty readily discover that it was zionists who paid certain people to popularize them in the form of "dispensationalism".
The sad thing is that too many people just blindly follow whatever their local pastor tells them (a problem created by the "reformation" and a rejecting of all Catholic/Orthodox beliefs) instead of learning history and seeing what the apostolic and early church fathers believed and taught. Even the early "reformers" like Luther, Calvin, et all.. retained a great deal more of Catholic theology than most protestant/baptist/nondenominational/pentacostal believers would feel comfortable with today. But that's the problem with rejecting an authority like the Pope and the Church, it made everyone into their own Pope and led to 20,000+ different Churches.
Perhaps a fuller discussion of the doctrine of God. And Romans 13 which properly exegeted make White nationalism mutually exclusive to it.
Another excellent podcast!😁😁
You shall not murder - Judaism
Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment - Christianity
Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder [Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17; Romans 7:5-13], and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment [Exodus 21:23; Deuteronomy 19:21; Deuteronomy 27:26].’ 22 But I say to you [Hebrews 7:11-12; Hebrews 8] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ [Lit., in Aram., Empty head] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge [Ecclesiastes 5:8; Isaiah 55:8-9], the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny."
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Have Christians ever successfully implemented Christian ideals via the legislative process that has withstood a single generation? Because for at least as long as I've been around.. things have only steadily declined. When it comes to vote, it seems it always about defending whatever bread crumbs we have left to defend and never expanding or advancing the cause.
@@springray2323 Demonstration of causation in social science is not a simple thing. I don't believe this assertion. You could point to Iran, but its government is obviously an exterme example not to be extrapolated from.
Because this is a fallen world that's on the road to destruction. It will only get worse until the end and man will never be capable of building a utopia so casting a vote means nothing.
You've never been in a Totalitarian country have you? What you consider "bread crumbs" people that actually have consider GOLD nuggets. And yes, Christians have changed the world. Perhaps you should listen to what John MacArthur has to say about the process of Sanctification and the abolition of Slavery in England and who did it. What you believe is a LIE.
@@einarabelc5 Sorry but you're clearly projecting. I was posing a general question based on my own personal experience. Not demeaning one side or another. I would be more inclined listening to your arguments if your attitude wasn't such a turn off.
No, the founders who established the United States understood the bloodshed of said religion by kings and queens to impose theocratical laws. There is a reason why laws are not predicated upon the basis of an established religion or any religion for that matter.
Whatever “success” Christians have imposed has always been temporary.
Christian nationalism, Christian coalitions and on and on. What does any of that have to do with Jesus? Vote any way you want to, but all the talk about who is or who isn’t a Christian nationalist, or racist or any other label doesn’t say much about the Jesus I learned about in Sunday School.
This is a long post, It’s not mean spirited nor is it about anyone’s particular political party.
And I’m not a Christian, but I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to be one if I saw people acting like those I remember being taught about as a kid. Nothing matches up. .
Being a Christian, if really being a Christian matters, try to remember how Jesus acted and behaved when confronted with the same problems and issues we face today?
Politics- he didn’t call for political activism, instead he commanded his followers to love their neighbors as they loved themselves. And let’s be clear, he wasn’t talking about only the neighbors you happen to like- all your neighbors.
He knew, if he is God, that political ideologies no matter what they were called then, or at any other time cannot fix what’s wrong with human beings. If you believe that living in a community, state or nation where decency and fairness is practiced and valued- then you need to practice and live the way Jesus commanded you to live. His advice to his followers was to demonstrate by word and deed, by being a reflection of his love to others by imitating his life.
I ask you, I mean I am really asking you what a person’s life would look like if God was living in that person’s life? How would a person live and act if they really believed God existed and that they were actually one of God’s friends? Come on- don’t hold back, what would being in a relationship with the creator of reality do to a person’s life?
Would they be in the streets or on social media screaming and ranting about how unfair they think their political party ( any party or any ideology ) is being treated? Would they advocate violence and spew hatred towards people they don’t agree with, when did Christ act like that?
Does anyone recall what He said following him might look like? If you are slapped in the face, turn the other cheek. How much of that do we see Christians doing today? And what about enemies? He said to love them- that’s right to love them! What did he do when his enemies came for him? He asked the Father to forgive them. And when one of his disciples resorted to violence and cut the ear off a Roman soldier, what did Jesus do? Did he say, keep it up dude and kill the SOB! Nope, he corrected the disciple and put the ear that had been hacked off back on the soldiers head!
Furthermore, how did his disciples and followers behave after his resurrection? Did they try to overthrow the government? Nope. The majority of the original 12 and many many unknown Christians met their deaths because they wouldn’t deny what Jesus taught them about how God expected them to live. He expected them to be like Him and act like a person who was created in His image!
I ask you, HOW would a person really live their lives if they really understood that they were indeed created in God’s image? Someone anyone tell me what that would look like. To know that they were created in the image of God, and that that same God became a man so He could demonstrate his love for his creation- how would you expect a person to behave with that kind of knowledge?
Would it look something like this? Would you be willing to be crucified upside down like Peter and suffer a horrible death for your God? Would you go to your death being thrown to lions in the Colosseum for entertainment purposes? Would you be willing to go to your death proclaiming that Jesus is God, and that God is the highest and most perfect example of unconditional love that can ever be conceived of, as someone bludgeons you to death for your beliefs.
Well, that’s how many people who claimed to be Christians went to their deaths. They weren’t whining about being treated unfairly. They were proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed as they went to their deaths. Because that’s how a person acts and behaves when they really do know God even when the world is killing them.
All I see are people claiming to be Christians and expressing their faith by hating others, letting the hungry remain hungry, allowing widows and children to live in squalor. Resenting the poor, whining about having to help them, whining about having to spend tax money help them, even though helping the poor is supposedly something Jesus wanted His followers to be responsible for.
You would think they wouldn’t whine about paying some taxes to help since they aren’t gonna do it themselves. Go figure. Jesus said the poor would always be on the planet, at least that’s what I learned in Sunday School as a kid, and that Christians are supposed to caring for them the why he commanded His followers to care for them. With the same love he cared for them with. He fed them, healed them, encouraged them, and never once despised them or felt ashamed of them.
If I were a Christian, a person who steadfastly knows in their hearts, that God literally lives in their very souls. I think I would definitely be a very different man. If I could know God they way Christians tell me they know him, I would be there in a skinny second. To literally be in a tight relationship with God Almighty, to know Him and be known by Him, it’s a mind blowing proposition that is so incredible that I cannot imagine how grateful and willing I would be to love him and act like Him.
For what it's worth the Apostles echoed the Prophets in that they claimed that the false teachers would come in, that many would go into Apostasy, etc... Paul in Acts 20 even says some of the leadership he was speaking to would be the very culprits. There is whole sections of writings from the Apostles saying these things will happen.
I say all this to say, your right, but the fact that your right, only further to proves what the bible claims. So if I may ask, if I understood you right, your not a believer? And that is in part due to faulty people, many of whom, weather they realize it or not, are not saved? Heck Yeshua warned of this himself Matthew Chapter 7. Many will say they were for him did things for him etc.. and he will say I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.
I honestly just want to suggest that since the bible warns that such people will exist, and even implies it would be a huge number of them, that this fact shouldn't keep you from belief, if anything it should make it stronger.
That said some are just weak, in faith, still babies, and think they have arrived. They will be humbled. But don't let these truths, that God himself said would happen, become reasons to not believe in the very God who warned of such things.
Appreciate your post, those observations are spot on.
Hello, I carefully read your post and I appreciate your thoughtful response. I’ve read the passages you suggested and yes, it's given me a lot to think about.
I’m not an atheist or am I agnostic in this sense: I believe that “God” exists. Beyond that, I cannot say too much about what even that means. I’ve given it a lot of thought over the years. I’ve read and carefully looked at what some would argue are the best arguments for and against a belief in God. I’ve studied what the early Christian church fathers had to say and studied what they had to say about the nature of God. I've looked at Jewish thought, both ancient and current about the nature of God as well. And to a lesser extent Islamic scholars, and to an even lesser extent Hindu, and a few oriental concepts of God.
I’ve looked at atheism from the point of view of both the scientific and philosophical disciplines. I’ve looked at those arguments, and while some of what they say is worth considering-- like the problem of evil and suffering in the world, I find their arguments less satisfying than those made by theists and my own experience living in the world.
I’ve earnestly prayed to know and understand what being in a relationship with God means. It’s not for a lack of sincerity or an unwillingness to connect with the divine. I cannot nor am I interested in letting go of my belief that a supreme being- that’s usually referred to as God exists. I’m convinced that an uncreated eternal being, one that must be omnipotent, omnipresent, and every other Omni you can think of, must be good.
What I cannot get hold of is where do you go from there? Who’s concept of God is right? Every major faith tradition can make good arguments that their beliefs are right or make the most sense.
I do think that the Christian faith is beautiful, and if true, offers humanity a connection and relationship to God that is deeply satisfying and personal. It’s hard to argue that the incarnation is trivial in any way whatsoever. To believe that God became a man to demonstrate how much he loves and cares about his creation is undeniably beautiful, good, and awe-inspiring.
I agree with you, I’d probably be better off separating what “Christians” say they believe and how they act it out in their lives. It’s very difficult to do when those claiming to be hardcore believers, not unlike those hosting this channel, display a kind of Christianity that doesn’t looks anything like the teachings of Jesus to me.
I mentioned in my other post teachings that came directly from the mouth of Jesus, yet there are very few examples of anyone actually living like they believe anything he said is true. Since the beginning, it’s been one group of believers arguing and fighting about what it even means to be a Christian. I’m not singling out any particular denomination, none of them particularly like each other, and condemn one another to hell regularly.
I’ve heard it said that Christians are the only people who shoot their own wounded. Anyway, I really do appreciate your thoughtful response to, after rereading my post, is nothing more than a rant. Sorry about that.
It just seems to me that when people say they are Christians, at least ones who have spent a good portion of their lives telling people how wonderful it is to be in a relationship to a loving and merciful God, that they would act something like the God they claim to believe in. I guess what I’m trying to say is that there should be some evidence that being a Christian really changes a person.
How is it possible for so many people who say they are Christians, then hurl insults and hatred at people they don’t even know? It doesn’t matter if someone is conservative, progressive, or independent politically. Because very few people but into any ideology completely. It seems that the best people can do is politically is to discard whatever they don’t like about any particular party and hang onto what they like. It’s imperfect but what else can people do? As far as I’m concerned there isn’t a political party that Jesus would join in our nation. They are all deeply flawed but if anyone wants to live in a democracy, it’s the way it is.
For example, many on the right are pro-life to the bone. They will fuss and fight with anyone who isn’t and label them baby killers etc. On the surface who can argue that everyone should have the chance to live. It seems like a no-brainer, it seems like something God would appreciate. However, the majority of those people want to end their pro-life activism at the birth of the child. From there they don’t want to have anything to do with the child saved from abortion. It seems to me an authentic pro-life belief ought to include a willingness to care for and help make sure that the child has a reasonably good chance at a good life.
Why aren’t those who claim that abortion is a horrible sin on the nation, but not think that helping to care for unwanted children with the same zeal after they are born, isn't any less sinful? I don’t think that those saving children from abortion are adopting and lovingly caring for them as if their lives really mattered.
Likewise, on the left some believe abortion isn’t anyone's business except for the mother, and if anyone questions that belief, those who do are terrible people who don’t value another human being's right to make decisions for themselves. And a sacred right has been violated if their lives and the way they choose to live them aren’t taken seriously. Because they are human beings who deserve respect and should be treated with respect.
Yet, birth control is available for anyone who wants it. There isn’t an excuse to have very many unwanted pregnancies. It can happen but it rarely does. For many pro-choice people their life has tremendous value, yet find ways to say that children in the womb aren’t relevant and have no value.
I said all that to say that being a human being is complicated. People make all kinds of moral judgments and apply them to everyone but themselves. There are gaping issues in either stance that cannot be just dismissed by saying the other side is evil.
Lastly, I’ll take your advice and reread the scriptures and try not to impose my own bias about what I think being a Christian is about. Maybe I underestimate what happens to people’s lives and how the treat one another after meeting God. I guess as they say, I should get the log jam out of my eye before criticizing someone with only a speck of dust in their eye.
@@tcl5853 also got something else I want to say but I'll do it later today, may God be with brother.
@@nathanieldiaz2845 Hello Christian, I feel I need to say that, please don’t feel obligated to respond to my posts. I’m not exactly sure what triggered me to make my first post. But I appreciate your thoughtful responses.
I remember a teacher in elementary school telling me/us that when we point an accusatory finger at someone, we should remember that three of our own fingers are pointed back at us. I know I’m as deeply flawed as anyone else. I don’t have answers, I just seem to have a lot of questions.
When I expressed disappointment in this particular channel and it’s host, it isn’t because I think she is in any way evil or intentionally trying to mislead anyone.
@@tcl5853
It's all good, I don't feel obligated, and I get it sometimes we need to let out our frustrations. At least you did it in a way that allows for some self reflection. That said some of what follows is possibly me ranting myself lol.
My heart truly goes out to you brother, more and more specifically in the western world there seems to be a massive disconnect, the time is nearing, quite possibly in my lifetime, when this all will get massively worse for short time, then Messiah returns.
I am reminded of Elijah when he was a prophet for God in the apostate northern Kingdom of Israel, fleeing for his life and asking God if he is the only one left. God responds he has 7000.
In some ways this is something of a double edged sword. I have no doubt that it brought relief to him that he wasn't alone but that indeed there was 7000 others! Yet this was at a time when there was atleast a couple million people living in the Northern Kingdom. That relief on some level I imagine was short lived, not all the relief but Good Lord.
I look out at specifically America and can't help but feel this terrifying truth that the percentage isn't all that different.
Something the western church in particular has forgotten is that Fear of the Lord is a healthy thing, our claims to Love God yet with no fear of him is ... troubling to say the least and in all honesty it's one of the foundational issues with us.
True Reverence for the Creator of the Universe seems to be lacking. And just to be clear I am talking "Biblical fear" not the fear one has of a abusive step dad, but the fear one has for someone or something of great Power. God's power and Majesty demands respect and Awe. Yet even with such power and Majesty, he came here to us, creatures of dirt and clay, and hung on a cross.
There is nothing we could have done to earn this. A perfect being that is perfect in a way that none of us can Fathom, not owing us a thing, chose to from before even making us, made a decision out of his own will, nothing and Noone can claim to have obligated him, his choice freely to say that he would pay the price.
Most "Christian" Americans are so heavily distracted by entertainment by technology by anything and everything commercial (not that these things are inherently evil) that they will never take time to contemplate what that means and why there should be a reaction like no other if indeed we have come to knowledge of this truth.
Agian, I am more than willing to say many are just babies in the faith. Or perhaps I just hope that is the case. (Not that I am perfect I definitely have my own issue I struggle with)
What follows is an excerpt of scripture.
Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God - to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit. But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him. For who has known the mind of Adonai? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah!
As for me, brothers, I couldn’t talk to you as spiritual people but as worldly people, as babies, so far as experience with the Messiah is concerned. I gave you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. But you aren’t ready for it now either! For you are still worldly! Isn’t it obvious from all the jealousy and quarrelling among you that you are worldly and living by merely human standards?
1 Corinthians (1 Co) 2:14-16 CJB
And
1 Corinthians (1 Co) 3:1-3 CJB
As helpful as chapter divisions can be I can also see how they break the flow of the original writing. Just something to keep in mind when studying.
But anyway look at what he says. A rebuke that many supposed American believers need to take to heart, because he is saying it to them as well. And a rebuke that falls in line with your observations.
Brother I pray you find peace, that you find God, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, the King Of Israel, and through Messiah, his son who laid his life down for us all. You said yourself you see the beauty in this, I hope you can come to see the truth of it. May God bless you.
One of the reasons that the questions in the survey are broad is partly because in order to get a response they must be. Consider that few Christians agree at all on any of the dictates that many other believers and non-believers might consider definitive. On prayer in school, many Christians claim to be in favor of this--until they are presented with a prayer from another Christian denomination, at which time, they understandably balk. Generally, the label "Christian" is used very broadly, and that use would dissipate immediately if these Christians were asked to state what they actually believe and discovered how few of their fellow Christians agree with their particular beliefs. What is really confusing about Christianity is that so many conflicting faiths are considered Christian when the individuals within any faith vehemently disagree on what Christianity is.
Another beautiful episode!! Thank you, Alisa!! 😍