The New Upwell Haulers EXPLAINED!! || EVE Online
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
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Contrary to your worries, I think industrial ships *should* be able to fight back. Otherwise the only course of action upon getting tackled is, "Guess I'll just die now.". (And no, 50 drone bandwidth with 50 drone storage space doesn't count.)
Haulers and freighters should only have minimal offense and decent defensive capabilities. As they aren't designed to fight. If your hauling it should be with a small or medium sized escort fleet with you.
Romkiger got there before I did. It's part of how the game works. If your hauler is a match for my combat ship AND can haul, then what's the point of my combat ship??
@@captainbenzie Bring a bigger hammer?
@@captainbenzieI'm sorry but that's a week argument. You can run sites you can do PvP you can run abyssal sites etc. I think haulers should have some means of counterplay so basically a random destroyer fittet what ever can kill an hauler.
To the point of a hauler should put in the effort to scout ahead organise a support fleet etc. Why should the said ganker not require the same amount of effort.
Iean to be honest the freighter will never see any play in null sec because of all said reasons and a JF will always be preferred because it eliminates the risk of ganks completely in friendly 0 sec.
I think it is a nice try of CCP to get something other then JF or bridging Freighter fleets some playtime in 0.0 space.
@@the8aum you call my argument weak but misunderstand and immediately misrepresent me.
If your T1 Hauler can kill my T1 Cruiser, then it can also do all the content my T1 Cruiser can do.
Everything needs counters. Everything needs niches.
If your hauler is suddenly on par with a combat vessel, then it's no longer a hauler - it's a combat vessel with better cargo.
If I were playing an MMORPG and I had a choice between a mage that casts fire spells, or a mage that can cast those same fire spells AND HEAL, why would I play the first one?
Yes, having a hauler capable of fighting back is fine. Having it maybe capable of handling the tackle ship? Fine. But to actually fight back the teeth of a PvP engagement? No. That is game breaking. It literally unravels the entire point of balance.
I had a theory that a perfect Caldari/Minmatar pirate faction would focus on a smuggling theme. Thus was coming up with ideas for pirate haulers that could maybe multi-purpose for fleet support. Basically a deep space transport with bonuses to remote tracking/sensor enhancers etc. or maybe even bonuses to warfare/logistic drones or smartbombs.
Ashterothi surmised the same, essentially true Thukker ships.
In the video CCP posted, they showed the fitting window and cargohold sizes on all the ships except the Avalanche. I'm assuming CCP was sitting in the ship with a max-skilled character. With that in mind, this is what they showed can fit into the Infrastructure Hold: PI, Fuel Blocks, Moon Goo, and all types of upwell structures.
The Blockade Runner has a 4k m3 base hold, and 45k m3 Infrastructure hold, so around 9290 m3 base with cargo expanders and T2 cargo rigs. Because it can fit a covops cloak, its now the best way to move aroune PI safely, making all other Blockade Runners obsolete for this purpose
The DST has a 50k m3 fleet hanger, then 150k m3 Infrastructure Hold. Not being immune from cargo scanners probably riskier for trade hub hauling, but a significant upgrade over any other DST's if you're trying to move a bunch if moon goo, PI, or fuel blocks around.
Then theres the freighter. The Infrastructure Hold size wasn't shown, but it had a keepstar and extras in there, with a base hold of 265k m3 as well. If you fit cargo expanders, thats 542k m3 standard hold + at least 900k m3 Infrastructure hold. But you probably don't want to fit it that way since there's a better option: Inertial Stabilizers in the lows and a 500mn MWD gives it a 10 second align time, making it by far the fastest ship for 265k m3 of stuff to move, plus extras for the infrastructure hold. The Orca could only do around 140k m3 with a 10 second align time.
This is all if you ignore the offensive capabilities and focus on hauling.
are you sure that you dont have those numbers and descriptions backwards? cov ops on a dst and smaller capacity than a blockade runner?
@@MysticalDragon73 oh yeah you're right. Blockade runner = cloaky one, DST = Tanky one. I flipped that in my description. Should be fixed now.
@@danschmidt6206 glad I wasnt misreading things. I was like huh? this doesnt make sense. I know I am tired and was up all night but still lol. It does sound interesting.
Thank you for a comprehensive overview of these ships. And yes, as someone who does a fair amount of hauling, I am looking forward to the introduction of these ships.
I can quite appreciate your concerns with them taking over from the others seeing as how, for now at least, they do seem to be far more powerful than any of their competitors. If it leads to the demise of the Epithal then I'm on board, that damned ship is nothing but a paper bag with a target on its back.
For the others, there is one facet of EVE mechanics that I believe will limit their ''taking over'' from current ships.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when any ship fires a weapon, even in self defence, they are restricted from jumping through a gate or docking due to the aggression timer, at least in High-Security space. Normally, with current haulers whether they be DST's/Freighters or whatever, all you have to worry about is whether your tank will hold until the brief interval between reaching a gate and jumping is over, same with docking.
But if you start firing missiles at the gate campers you are putting yourself in a world of hurt. If I'm wrong about this mechanic I'm sure you will correct me.
Of course, all this is besides the point if these new ships are going to become flying targets because they may be carrying Upwell components, reagents etc. A normal freighter might become the safest thing to fly!
EASY FIX. Classify the Avalanche as a Capital.
I think it would be interesting to have a well armed hauler to catch pirates unaware. Such tactics were used in WWII where false cargo ships were heavily armed. Look up Q ships. The point was to lure the enemy in thinking they had a juicy merchant vessel and then the concealed weapons would tear them apart. I'd make these ships able to haul cargo of course too so you could switch back and forth in your fits between being a trap or merchant hauler.
Problem with that is ship type is displayed on the overview. If your new class of ships can ruin a gankers day, gankers just approach that ship type with caution in the future. What really needs the happen is a method to fake out the overview/D-Scan to make them think you're something else
@@danschmidt6206 Would be interesting. Kind of a E war thing.
The Avalanche, inspired by Brave Logo :D
New Freighter traps incomming :o Maybe it's good for gate gun tanking with logi. Let's see where the price will be after it has settled down. Also like the design. Always prefered Caldari haulers in terms of looks. Looking forward to your video on it Benzie! ;)
Thank you!!
These ships sound awesome, but it really comes down to the price. Vedmaks and Drekavacs are cheap because the BPCs are plentiful and none of the parts take gas. Meanwhile something like an Alligator is expensive because they require a whole bunch of irritating reactions that use gas. Given the stats on these new haulers and the prices seen on the last batch of faction ships, I expect these Upwell haulers to have complicated blueprints too, which means they will be expensive too.
The article seems to suggest otherwise
@@captainbenzie Took another look at the article and it is interesting that the Squall and Avalanche will be T1 with purchasable blueprints, though it doesn't say if those are purchasable BPOs or just BPCs. I would be shocked if the Upwell ships end up being as cheap as empire equivalents, but they might use the preservation seals and backup units like battleships do, since there is precedent for those components being used in T1 BPOs. The really expensive part must be in the "new Upwell starship engineering datacores" and the "new Upwell components, with blueprints available from all Upwell Consortium member NPC stations" which are necessary for the T2 ships.
Could be interesting if they make a Jump Freighter from the AVALANCHE 🙂
That would be terrifying
hmm, for balance: since they can fight well, then they should probably have smaller cargo holds than the other haulers.
Or less tank, or something, yes, but that does not appear to be the case
Just finished the skin mass test some hours ago and now catching up on the Eve news day while
Running some event sites and reading the RP forum posts with your video in the background. Great way to relax after work. Thanks for the podcast format.
I’m not that concerned about their offensive capabilities. Sure it might be able to fight off a stray astero or
Even a cruiser but I’d assume that’s about it. Solo it should be pretty balanced but we will have time see. Ccp will adjust the numbers anyway as we
Know, if they see a problem with the final usage. Looking forward to it. I’m
Always for trying new things and maybe overtune it a
Little in the beginning. Take Bold steps and have fun. Scaling back is in the cards anyway eventually.
That's kinda my concern. If a Squall can fight off a T1 Cruiser... Then it's basically a better T1 cruiser with more cargo space. So why ever use any other hauler, or indeed, a cruiser??
@captainbenzie From how I read it, I think the ship hold is going to be for ship/structure parts , PI, and structures themselves. (Possibly reactions and their indy trees too) Combat wise, sure it might be able to fight them off but that isn't the end all be all you might think it is. The long align times, bad agility, and most likely inability to fight multiple ships at once due to not being able to dodge shots or out fly others like a normal cruiser will keep it from replacing cruisers.
To continue, a cruiser can probably warp out of combat with them via getting out of scram range on them easily, which is fighting them off. As even oversized mwds/afterburners don't give that much of an increase in speed for industrial ships over a cruisers base. Which then limits what you can even fit combat wise. While this might cause a bit of an issue when it comes to trying to solo these ships in low or null with their stated fight off capability, it isn't like it will affect much in high as you normally have to gank haulers with multiple ships anyways in high. And while you can solo roam in low, most haulers die via camps, t3 ships, or getting tackled by a group not a lone t1 cruiser looking to 1v1 a hauler.
I do wonder if they will do a redesign/work on the faction haulers
Yes, I am worried that these new ships will become the standard and push out any nuanced factional differences. However, I am interested to see how that will be mitigated.
Same. Can't wait to see how they pull it off!
Possibly they are not making the older ships obsolete but maybe they will also get a rehaul and have their own specific abilities and traits
Im in total agreement with you about how these ships function. As a player whos first taste of new eden was from eve echoes, (i know different games but plz hear me out) haulers and freighters shouldn't have the capability of wiping out enemy fleets on their own. They should have escorts guarding them or even scouting for them so they may plan optimal routes in case of camps. If these ships end up with the firepower capabilities that im predicting they will have then chances are they will end up replacing all the current haulers and frieghters.
Wholeheartedly agree. As I've said elsewhere, if a Squall can fight off a Cruiser, then that makes the Squall better than a Cruiser, with bigger cargo... So what's the point in the Cruiser??
These ships wont be "a match" for PVP fit ships that might try to gank you etc. THey will simply be extra deterrent and role specified (cargo type specified). These things I cant imagine wont have specified cargo like the ORE hold, the maintenance bays etc of other ships while the generic cargo space will be dramatically lower. If they dont do it this way I wil be shocked. This means no you wont choose this over a bustard for general use because your hauling capability in this would be no mater for the bustard.
Honestly i like that the new Freighter has Missile Launchers. In brings the Biggest Syfi MMO in line with Most Syfi Epics where freighters are armed. I think they need to drop the number of hardpoints to 3 or 4 but like i said most Syfi Epics have Armed Freighters so im down.
Plus even with the addition of Armed Freighters the Mindset of most of the Pilots will be to run. They will fight but i think we will see most running and not staying to actually fight.
And another thing that makes this cool is we now have Q-Ships in the form of these Armed Freighters. That can be used to bait fights in Low and Null Sec.
Probably should up the price by 25-50% for the New Freighter though
"It makes it more like TV" isn't a good reason. Game design comes first.
Imagine, if you will, that a T1 Cruiser fights a Squall and the Squall wins. That means the Squall is a better combat vessel than the T1 Cruiser AND has a larger cargo hold. So why would I ever fly the T1 Cruiser???
@@captainbenzie I don't watch TV, I was Talking about Books. And I was thinking more powerful than a T1 Destroyer but less than a T1 Cruiser... Most of the Time. Ie, the Freighters Role Bonus Don't give Anything to Offense, but do give some Defensive Bonus. Doesn't have to be to EHP but target jammers and the like.
But even If these new Freighters do have More Firepower than a T1 Cruiser the Cruiser still will be picked over the Freighter the Majority of the time because the Cruisers are more Nimble and Faster.
I could see them being used to Rat in Nul Sec if they have the power of a T1 Cruiser but I don't think it would be very efficient.
Circling back the Other Media side. I think it would help ease some players fears that they can defend themselves like in TV or Books (though it rarely works out for the Armed Freighters in either) and get more players to go into logistics, which is always spread thin.
Been thinking about getting a freighter for my PI for a while. I produce P3 woth 2 alts and hauling that every few days from Jita is a pain. Even with the Orca I need 3 trips. So this might be interesting...
Good luck!
Grettings from México!
Ahoy!!
Can they run hs and losec as well. I run a lot of stuff between hs/lo and null.
Whats the normal cargo capacity?
Only positive is a fight back against hi-sec gankers. I suspect these will replace the current haulers. Is that an undisclosed long term plan? Who knows.
"Doesn't replace ships" *Cries in Primae*
I see the shadow of the Nerf
Hello Captain! it's been a while. Great vid! I don't play Echoes anymore, and I have always loved the idea of EVE, but I'm concerned about the time investment and with all the content available, I'm quite concerned that I'm just too far behind to be useful to anyone. But I love that you're still making content. Keep it up!
EVE Online is the best it's been in a long time right now and new players are fine! Don't feel like you're behind, there are new people joining daily!
Agree re cost and creep - they need to make these very pricey and/or give them a hard downside or I'm going to replace every hauler I use - I'm not rich but I'm not so poor that I'd keep using epithals and cranes for PI unless CCP makes me.
Exactly
Gotta get these!
☺️
If the trailer was to be trusted the avalanche lacks any rig slots which does bring its capabilities down compared to actual battleships. Pair that with a possible low cargo hold/specialised hold and it might not be as crazy as it seems
I hope so
In the video CCP posted ut shows the fitting window on all of the ships. For the freighter, it has a base of 265k m3 regular cargo hold, probably with a max skilled character mind you, so with 3 cargo expanders the base hold is around 542k m3. However, it also has the Infrastructure hold which the actual m3 of that hold wasn't shown for the freighter, but it did have a keepstar and some extras, so it's at least 900k m3 in the Infrastructure hold, I'm guessing even more based on the theme with the other ships.
Based on the fitting window which shows the mass and inertial modifier, I ran some quick numbers and basically the freighter can fit a cloak and MWD, but can't do the cloak + MWD trick. However, a T2 MWD with the 5% agility implant and T2 Inertial Stabilizers in the low slots gets it aligned in 10 seconds, so the new freighter will automatically be the fastest method to move 265k m3 of general cargo around relatively quickly, showing up the Orca. And of course if you have moon goo, fuel blocks or PI you can move much more of it significantly faster.
Well the point of these things is I think to be a trolling ship if I'm being real with you for combat capable ships of equivalent size from all the four races no even against the tech one Cruiser fit for PVP the new Hallows really kind of seemed like to me that they would struggle
CCP is occasionally the poster child for the law of unintended consequences... If they are LP builds that may restrict availability at first but not for long as they get farmed? If they end up virtually replacing the empire haulers maaaaybe CCP will then upgrade the empire haulers slightly to match? My only real question would be why this instead of adding upgraded empire ships?
I like the new ships and branch, but I'm concerned if they're just flat out better
A buddy comes by when I am mining ore, to then sell the ore so I can stay mining for longer. Is there a better way to transfer the ore from my retriever to the hauler other than jettisoning into space for him to pick up? lol
If your friend can fly a deep space transport, you can put things straight into the fleet hangar as long as they're close enough
Or anchoring a secure container that they have the password to, going you>container>friend
to make theas new ships not replace the Epithal I belive that CCP would/should make it so that the Epithal still is the only ship with a specialised cargo hold for Command centers, so that you still need to use the Epithal when setting up your command centers and then have the new upwell ships only be a potential better pick to haul your PI made products.
The new PI structures attract and can spawn pirates. It replaces the current PI office when put in place. In places with them, the offensive capability lets them get their PI off planet, not really needed for HS Pi, won't be replacing the Epithal on my PI alts that are just accessing regular PI offices.
How long before the DST takes over Homerfronts?
😂
Can anyone say, the new bait gankers are in? These sound like in their current form, op af.
We need a t2 orca
Benzie, these ships very likely aren't going to be Marauders. I don't think these ships will be the new meta for anom farming but will likely give actual solo players a way to defend themselves.
And frankly, these ships are huge. It would make no sense there wouldn't be any weapon slots on them anywhere :D
I always found the innocent mentality huge ass tanker like space ships wih no weapons whatsoever stupid design. 20 thousand years in eve and that's what the "aboriginals" came up with? XD
Lmao, I didn't say they'd be Marauders 😂
But answer me this.
If a T1 Cruiser loses to a Squall, then a Squall is better than a T1 Cruiser AND has a bigger hold. Why would I fly the T1 Cruiser?
I reckon these will be like the astero. Nerfed by price
Article seems to suggest they won't be that much more expensive
@@captainbenzie which bit specifically makes you think? I took the bit about it needing special Upwell bits and all four races components to mean it would cost roughly 4 times the price at least? Either way. Very excited for these ships. Coolest designs that have come out in a while imo
What makes us think these new ships can be used anywhere other than Null Sec or WH?
Pretty pointless and setting a new precedent if they can't be used everywhere
@@captainbenzie Haulers, DST and Freighters with weapons? In High Sec? Seems way too good to be true. There has got to be a catch. The rest of the expansion is all about Null Sec except for the Haulers, DST and Freighters with weapons?!? Has CCP ever been this generous before?
It is bloody time that the Freighter and Hauler gets Weapons for Defense... Nobody, or lets say at least, the most player dont want to loose their stuff, helpless, to any other player in the game. and if you still want to kill Freighter, Miner, or anyting else, than fight for it (with friends). Do more Wars or bigger fights in PvP for melting Ships and Mats in Order to please the economy. What i mean, yes, bring them in with weapons, test them and change every other Transport to a Ship with enough Weapons. Problem fixed. Just a case of Balance after the Update. As always, new stuff comes, old ones gets changed, and if it was right, playerbase will maybe increase again, or if it was wrong, the base gets smaller and it needs another balance fix.
time will tell, but i am hyped for the future, maybe seeing more possibilities for my Mining ships to survive.
EVE needs more destruction, not more survival. Any good player knows that profit lies in destruction, the trick is being good enough that someone ELSE is getting destroyed.
Benzi "Ya lets make the new haulers 50billion each so no one but the richest players can fly them"
Yep, that's definitely what I said 🤡
Memes
Gotta love high sec players foaming at the mouth for these "armed" haulers, thinking they will somehow save them from being ganked. It's the exact opposite. These haulers will be gank magnets for quite some time after they are released. No amount of EHP or firepower will save you from a gank in high sec. The gankers will just bring more ships.
They gon be expensive yall. I bet.
Literally says not in the article
Any word if CCP is going to buff the racial haulers to at least compare to these new ships?
No need. These have small regular cargo holds. They are meant for hauling PI materials.
No, the new ship is a battleship
Three cruiser sized haulers and a capital freighter. None of them are battleship sized hulls, just the freighter will have "battleship equivalent firepower"
4 mins and only 3 views, this guy is climbing
Over 500 in the first hour. My main audience is the USA, which is not the timezone I launch in. Early views are nice, but don't make a video 😉
Always a good day when I check my subscriptions and find a new Captian Benzie video up for viewing. I am somehow not even remotely surprised f
That Benzie Flys a hauler around daring gankers to go for him lol! I'm interested in flying a blockade runner someday because they are the ones with cloaking devices if I recall correctly. Hauling seems like it can be something of an adventure. Like actual combat, hours of nothing punctuated by moments of energizing fright 😊 great video sir. I still don't know what jump fatigue is or does to a person. I can guess but I need to find a video that explains it and I have not found one on this ir any other channel yet. Great video as always sir! O7
The counter is also broken and slow. I’ve seen videos with 10 views and 100 comments
@@Wychfyre_ it depends when you load it too. But yeah, ultimately it's pointless 😂 content still pays my bills adequately ☺️
The dude does not even know how the views are computed yet comes here to try to mock people, such a person... I mean, your life on earth is limited, right, you have a finite number of days here... The dude decides that, yes, this is how he wants to spend it...
You mentioned PVE fits not being able to take on PVP ships. I think that is mainly CCP's fault, for making NPCs play differently, with different rules. If NPCs acted more like a human player you would be required to fit more like PVP, making you better prepared if you got ganked. Problem is NPCs are stupid and have different rules (they have infinite range and cap for example). Wish CCP would rewrite PVE completely, make it more like PVP, so you could "easily" switch from one to the other. As it is now a PVE fit is mostly useless in PVP.
I think it's kinda the point. Having to fit differently for PvP and PvE ensures no one ship is good at everything, and gives cat and mouse gameplay
@@captainbenzie I disagree with that, NPC enemies shouldn't work completely different than human ones. Your fit should be good at COMBAT, period, not separate PVE with PVP.
@@captainbenzie in fact, PVE should work as practice for when you want to get into PVP, not work completely different. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
@@captainbenzie obviously AI enemies are limited to the AI itself, so fighting a human enemy is always less predictable, but at the very least they should work under the same rules of gameplay. Which isn't the case.
@@BrunoMoozika whereas it makes complete sense to me? Like in World of Warcraft, you don't learn arena or battlegrounds via raiding etc.
PvE and PvP are different GAME concepts. I get that they're both "fights" and so I see how it works to think a good NPC fight should feel like a player fight, but from game design they serve different purposes.
PvE is an Income Faucet (if I may use economics terminology) and PvP is Income Destruction.
And this gives me a great idea for a video.
Kind of unkind to Gallente and other non missile trained peoples.
Man, whats wrong with industrial PvP? I actually have at least as much kills in hauler as I do in all other ships combined. Industrial PvP is the best PvP.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just a solo industrial ship taking down enemies feels... Kinda wrong when it's not for the memes and is serious.
@@captainbenzie lets wait for stats of that ship before judgement. Having missile capabilities by itself doesnt mean anything. What compromises you have to do to damage to have decent tank? What is your base damage? If they will be able to have, lets say 150DPS with 100 DPS passive tank, its nothing to write home about. Not harmless, but not really PvP competititve either.
When I was active I had a PvP fit for industrial ship. I have a 250M assault frigate solo kill in 20M industrial. When we went out for lols and giggles in 5 man PvP industrials fleet, we took a fleet of cruisers and BCs... I have Vexor Navy and Thorax kill and Myrmidon assist from that one fight. In other instance I went solo against tech III and tech I cruisers, havent killed them, too slow to maintain point, but they were damaged and forced to leave... You can have PvP capable industrial ship without being over the top. And for the sake of healthy gameplay I hope those new ships allow for some goofy fun and capable fits but arent superior in everything to current options.
Yea, it all sounds good until the Pirate cry fowl when the carebares fight back and start wiping out entire pirate fleets. Then they demand the nerf bat to come out like they did with the standard haulers and freighters. 0 guns on all of them... If you even have 1 gun, it won't do any good. So what the point of playing or even getting one when you know they will just nerf bat the shit out of it.
If a hauler has pros and cons over the others, that's fine. If these have the capability of threatening lone tackle, I'm fine with that, but there should be weaknesses too. As with ANY ship.
@@captainbenzie At one time during the earlier years, I was using my hauler to mine. Now, I can't. It was the only easy way to make isk but I ended up saving it for manufacturing forcing us into mining barges.
Personally, you can slap a gun on any ship and you can fight back if done right. Hell, you can remove the hauler space and make it a jury rigged gunship if you want.
I disagree with the fact that if you're hauling all you can do is run cuz nine times out of 10. You can't run at least this way you can show up on the other people's kilboards as they gank you
Hauler 101:
1) Avoid being caught
2) If caught, survive until you can jump gate or help arrives
3) Stop trying to fly solo in an MMO
Disagree on the cat n mouse;
It reduces the space of possibilities down to a tic tac toe game, and is part of the reason why I ended up leaving the game, because there is so many things to do in this game, and yet if you are exploring, mining & hauling the gameplay morphs into this silly "lets see if the server ticks screw me up this time" mini game.
Rorqual got a panic button to encourage people to mobilize around just-happening-right-now activity hotspots.
More ships need this treatment, not less.
If a single server tick screws you, you're seriously doing it wrong. Were you trying to play solo??
@@captainbenzie MMO has nothing to do with being able to play solo or not. MMO just means its a big online multiplayer game and nothing more. This whole cAnT fLy/pLaY sOlO iN a MmO is the stupidest mindset ever XD......Like who told you this nonsense? Been playing 14 years mostly solo so come again on this cant play/fly solo? Yes server ticks can screw you (regardless if solo or not) but you already know this and you already know its got nothing to do with playing right or wrong.
@@jonpippen6998 yeah, you're flying a hauler solo through dangerous space then blaming the game when you get caught.
Have a scout fly with you.