This is NOT me saying that technique doesn’t matter, or that ego-lifting is the answer. In the gym, you have an extremely controlled and safe environment to gradually expose yourself to more and improve your capacity. You’re not supposed to start with a 1RM Jefferson Curl or throw away all notion of standardised technique overnight. Rounding your back under load and exploring some of these positions will be new to some of you. Just like I wouldn’t recommend a newbie max out on their first day in the gym, I wouldn’t recommend you start with some of the things you might see on social media immediately. Everything is scalable, whether it’s with load, range of motion, speed or exercise altogether. Find a start point you can manage easily, and build from there. Happy lifting! 🫡
@@kapoioBCSI’ve seen people load up a bar to try and bench press far more than they’re capable of based on ego and then manage to get it down and up with the worst form I’ve ever seen. 1 point of contact on the bench. That’s ego lifting
@@Mikesterpop people call anyone that’s stronger than them ego lifters or anyone that uses any amount of momentum at all. It might have meant something a while ago but it’s extremely watered down.
your back is like any other limb, extend or flex it past its limits, and it’ll get injured, and like your limbs, it requires training in full range of motion to become stronger.
@@mx_nana_banana it isn't a requirement. Optimal or not you can grow with sufficient stimulus. You can grow with partials, whether they are shortened or lengthened. You can grow with isometrics, especially overcoming isometrics. Full ROM isn't as much of a priority as some coaches try to sell. I personally go with whatever gives me the best stimulus on a given exercise. Now, I'm personally all for the deficit jefferson curl shown here, but for mobility reasons rather than hypertrophy. I wanna be able to pickup my kids and grandkids as i get older.
@@mx_nana_bananaim not sure what the other comment meant, but it could be the same issue I have with saying to “train your back in its full ROM”, which is that your spine and your back muscles really want two different things if you are focused on becoming stronger, and that is stability. You can put your back muscles though full rom without flexing your spine in any meaningful way, and you can flex your spine in ways that will snap without reaching full rom on any muscle. When getting stronger (especially for movements such as deadlifts) if your spine is used to doing “flexy” activities such as yoga, your chance of injury skyrockets because you are able to load a non-stable spine with more weight than it can handle. TLDR: “full ROM back training” is too non-specific as you do not usually want your spine going full ROM when lifting weights.
I fucked my lower back on barbell squats. I got an x ray do nothing is wrong with my spine but after enough reps even with light weight my lower back gets really sore:(. Or like doing barbell rows, I think it happens because I flared my hips far back into a arch and it hurts a little less when I forceably drive my hips forward
@@charmsly9506 not x ray, you need an MRI. If you feel something is wrong with your lower back, then it is probably true. Once you destroy your lower back, there’s no coming.
@@charmsly9506you probably have some muscle stability issue at the hip or maybe not engaging ur core properly. I reccomend searching up squat university cuz he shows exercises that work wonders for back pain
This is so true. I got so drawn into the “optimal training” scene that I became obsessed and rigid. So much that I was doing more harm than good. Just staying in tune with my body and moving heavy shit mixing intuition and research has been the best for me.
People DRAMATICALLY confuse "under load" and "under appropriate load". Obviously, using a load inappropriate for you in that movement has a higher risk. This is true for any movement, although some have an inherently higher base risk. This DOES NOT mean moving under load = injury.
Every movement can be scaled to your needs, capacity. You can definitely get to this kind of level. It may also help you if you have back pain or are scared of rounding your lower back.
@@faotblack8921 why would I do this if even unloaded it immediately creates pain and every single doctor and physical therapist I’ve been to said not to do this type of movement. I’m doing core work and working up to training my lower back isometrically with rows and deadlifts and through a limited range of motion with back extensions. Why would I go against the advice of all my doctors and do something that creates pain if I can still work my lower back and core in other ways?
I think the short is intended to be advise for people who currently have nil issues with their lower back. Injuries can change advice. Talk to a good physiotherapist about your back. They'll be able to provide you safe parameters to start some flexion based movement.
which is why I like to integrate yoga into strength training, facilitating movements in so many planes of motion, facilitating fascia to move in all directions.
I can confirm I started going much lower with my back extensions into a range that other Fitness professionals say is unhealthy, when I bend over into unsafe positions I literally feel no pain, when prior there was always a risk of throwing out my back
Very true bro, no one really focuses or does any flexibility, mobility or stabilising work. Asking for an injury to happen if you neglect all them for long enough!
Just think the muscle as a whole and use 1 machine and one free weight / calisthenics movement for horizontal and vertical pull with some lower back work by 1 hyperextension 2 Deadlift .
This is not applicable to people who have previous injuries. Also I agree with exercising your body in wide ranges of motion, but with appropriate weight. Which can be hard to figure out. This short is a little contrarian - it is throwing shade at conventional movements with braced spines. I have nothing against controlled movements incorporating spinal flexion. However it is dangerous to do your conventional heavy deadlifts incorporating spinal flexion, and this short leaves open such dangerous movements.
You probably did more damage to your back by “reaching”,than anything you heard this man saying or doing in his short ever could. Did actually observe his movements?❤though.
most people dont know notice the details in the jefferson curl people do. the snatch grip, initiating the movement with chin tuck first and foremost, the bar path. but most importantly people find the set up to be inconvenient so they cant even get started. i mean ill be honest, in a commervial gym, i 2ould have to stack pla5es and those plates id have to be hogging from other people to use just to stand on them. not every box jump is tall enough for the average lifter as it is, and plus they just dont work well because foam box jumps dont stay as hard. in reality tho you dont need a loy of weight with it. you just need enoigh weight and enough height. but youll need to stack quite a few 45 pound bumpers and if they aint bumpers, their stackability and ability to stay grounded will vary more.
I like what you are saying here but for the non natural athlete with body problems, it's so easy to damage some aspect of the back during weight training that sometimes it's better just to perform other exercise routines that do give the back some work, but not concentrated.
@@tomashorst9544 It can be genetics -- such as inherent spinal problems, as a for instance -- or previous training injuries or injuries accrued by simply living life.
@@MyCharleyhorse I have a diagnosed back problem, got a million times better from back training. And with heavy weights too. Heavy RDLs, dumbbell rows, weighted pullups. 0 injuries. Again this fearmongering is based on nothing. Most injuries/medical conditions only get better from frequent weight training.
@@tomashorst9544 We all vary with our physical issues; and that's my point. Not everyone physically responds the same way. Caution is called for when there are physical issues.
@@MyCharleyhorse Yeah but again, that's based on nothing. Do you have any concrete examples? Do you have any evidence of what you're saying? Don't get me wrong, I think lifting should be done safely. But caution for the sake of caution usually just ends up with people babying themselves in the gym and getting nowhere. Even then if you do get injured, to get any kind of serious life changing injury requires the type of weight that seasoned lifters use, not newbies.
I think this is a classic example of “just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should”. Movement through the spine is great, but loaded movement will often apply undue stress on the spinal discs, cumulating over time. And why perform a relatively high risk activity with an extremely detrimental possible outcome?
Not detrimental at all if give yourself slow and consistent graded exposure to them starting with just Bodyweight alone and progressing to loaded ones slowly over time
Do you move your body the same way in the day to day life that you do in the gym? I have never seen someone brace every time they squat or have a perfectly braced core and a straight back when they lift something off the floor. That’s why it’s important to strengthen your body in those movements.
@@movestattoo4561 actually, yes! Professional furniture movers have rigorous weight lifting protocols to safely move what they need to. We also get manual handling training at work, which teaches you to brace and drive with the legs. People injure themselves constantly when they lift with their back, which is why it’s part is workplace HSE regulations. Even the strongest among us develop long term back issues.
I love making up my own movments .. compound movments.. as long as I'm fully stretched put the possibilities are endless. The looks I get at the gym are hilarious.. they jelly 😅
@@Sam-ed7jz If your spine is the chassis and the muscles that flex and extend the spine are the suspension, training them correctly would only smoothen the ride
It’s not fear for no reason. Obviously we’ve over-corrected from improper training and lacking the literature to challenge the status quo. Now that we have so much information and so many connections and outlets, we can make informed decisions about what’s the proper weight, techniques and ranges of motion from both literature and anecdotal accounts.
The body is designed to move in all planes. If you can move in a certain way then your body is obviously designed to move that way The problem is that people do move that way often enough or they add too much weight too soon Then it's the movement that's blamed and not the poor choice of weight or lack or mobility for that movement
Not all body parts are designed to move through full ROM under load. Even if Eugene’s point was valid, the risk of doing these exercises far outweighs the benefits in most cases due to incredibly high chance of severe injury
Spine is literally a bona, not a muscle. Lower back is a muscle group which is indeed trained with full ROM in exercises like deficit deadlifts, good mornings,RDLs, Bent over rows.
Im not training lower back because of aestetic purposes. Small lower back means small lower abdominal, which means more of a v-tape physiche. Probably gonna bite me in the ass when I get older, but whatever.
yeah but what if you have scoliosis like me where if you don’t do a perfect RDL while bracing your core strong you get back pain, this maybe applies better to people with normal spines
Your spine isn’t like every other limb, if you start training it by rounding it out. It will lose its ability to stabilize the spine because you’re stretching and contracting it. The muscles of the spine stabilize, they don’t lift…
Dr.Mcgill says spine shouldn't be flexed or extended like that. Cuz it's not like a single bone. It's a serious of bones with disc's in between. The muscles around the spine is used for limiting the spine motion itself and not move your spine. I'm just stating what some ppl would say who are against moving spine. This comment is just for reading so don't reply to it.
The lower back is naturally a weak point. So chances of injury are higher. But that's literally the point of exercise. To strengthen your weak points so you don't get injured outside of the gym. This is pretty much just squatting knees past toes all over again
Yo you did a yoga pose with that weight .. I’ve been doing yoga for a few yrs and have built move back muscles than any other place ❤ we even add weights now to our classes
You tell that to people that barely did anything crazy with their back and got after years a bulged disc. The spine IS NOT like any other limb of your body. It is a fragile structure, and that is why it is mostly secured by our body. That is why we always protect ourselves of getting hit from behind, CAUSE IT IS OUR WEAKNESS. That said, carefully stretching your back and training it under weird positions in a very careful way is also very beneficial to prevent injuries and have a better movement quality.
This kind of advice may be fine for those who are not hypermobile or do not have back injuries, but I think can be misconstrued. You have to know your body and know how it responds to certain stimulus. I am hypermobile and already tend toward excessive movement so making sure my core or other muscles are properly stiffened prior to lifting a heavy load helps me to prevent injury or reinjury. Also it should be noted that Putting the discs under load in a flexed or extended position has been shown by research time and time again to be associated with higher risk of injury. It’s better to teach novice lifters to stabilize the core and maintain neutral spine because it simply lowers the risk of injury.
Many of your statements have been debunked by research. 1. Visual assessment of spinal position is probably unreliable 2. The spine flexes out of the “neutral” zone for many common gym exercises. 3. Many of the studies that demonstrated this increased risk of injury were not done on live humans
Tbh, ik the back is meant for more. Cuz I myself can flex some way that includes my back and for some odd reason it doesn’t hurt at all, that’s what made me think our backs are meant for more
I really dislike how low tier some of this content is becoming man. 1. The focus on those things is largely due to the rapid growth and adoption of BODYBUILDING. The gym has seen a significant increase in the number of people wanting to bodybuild. Through this, they have learned how to isolate specific muscles because that does matter. 2. Going through the statement of “We should load our spine in various ways” because it’s “PROBABLY” beneficial. Why say probably? Go read a study (as you should, you are a content creator with a following) and say it with certainty. Don’t be one of those content creators that just word vomits half truths and avoids any responsibility later on.
I don’t think you should move your spine under load, and you should train for that. If you move your spine under load it will lead to severe injury However with your own body weight it should be done, to increase flexibility and movement
You should absolutely move your spine through all ranges slowly and progressively with responsible loading and frequency over time unless you want to end up a robotic glass back
what if i told you your bodyweight is still a load. what if you gain 2,5 kg bodyweight? what if instead if gaining bodyweight you add small dumbells and it feels fine so you slowly increase the load as you build muscle like any other movement. your idea of loading the spine is arbitrary and fearmongering.
@@clintiacuone1703 i think the risk outweighs the benefits. I’m a fireman and if you don’t train for core stiffness you will mess yourself up when carrying a 20 stone bloke down 2 flights of stairs.. Teaching your mind to move your spine freely under load is dangerous. Maybe for people who only care about gym it’s fine, real life usage where trips and slips happen and you move things and people, up and down the stairs is what i’m trying to use my body for. If your only physical activity exists in a controlled environment carry on experimenting, but a stiff core usually results in more power output even when it comes to boxing and other dynamic sports
@@wotanjugend974 Under responsible load is fine, i’m saying ego lifting could be dangerous when not using the right technique In real world situations. You want to teach your brain and body how to complete tasks and do them properly in real life
@@omsval1485 obviously no one is promoting ego lifting. however your original comment said any movement of the spine under load is inherently dangerous which is incorrect. if you do regular movements like squats and dealift you learn to brace the spine under load and prevent injuries. but adding movements where the spine is moving under load such as the zercher deadlift, jefferson curl and stone/sandbag lifting you further bulletproof your back by building the spinal erectors and build strength in all positions of the spine.
actually, like always, the risk is not doing it someone that is worried about rounding and stability has higher chances of hurting themselves than someone training dynamically
@@NuwandaLunaDragon I just feel that the majority of normal folk that go to the gym just for that quick workout, keep themselves in shape or just to feel good will not nail the form needed for this to have benefits out weigh the risk. Just my take on it, I could be wrong but yeah I just feel like that’s a no go for most people
@@PWizz91 the thing is, there's no real risk the risk comes from using weight you can't really handle or living in fear of your own natural movements As you say, lots of people want to train to feel good, and lots of people have back pain, yet they don't train their backs or core at full capacity leaving valuable benefits in the table I have scoliosis and had back pain from a very young age, like, 12 years old. Luckily, I did martial arts, calisthenics, stretching and all kinds of resistance training now, I have 0 back pain, can you imagine how would I feel 8 or 10 years later from having back pain from such a young age? Your body is capable of moving fast, generating power, stretching and all kinds of stuff, yet we act like focusing on some aspects of what the human body can do are safe (like stamina and strength) and others are dangerous (like power and flexibility) when everything comes down to progression and patience
ALL exercises are scalable and can be modified to suit the individual. Just like any "regular" movement. Creating fear around a completely natural position we encounter on a daily basis is wild. As stated in the caption, you're not supposed to start with a 1RM Jefferson curl. Find where you're currently at and slowly build at your own pace. That's literally what all exercise is about and the spine is no different
far from it learning from athletes, rehabilitators, different cultures, scientific literature and schools of thought is the best you can do the benefits are infinite
There's hardly anything more detrimental than the exercise performed in this video for the health of your spine. It isn't demonization, it's just information. Under load, flexing your spine in that way, means asking for trouble. And for what then? There are no benefits! If you want a flexibile spine, you don't need weights at all.
That is simply incorrect. The evidence both in literature and anecdote from decades of experienced lifters and athletes shows that the body is resilient and adaptable, and even structures like the intervertebral discs can adapt positively to exercise, albeit slower than muscles and tendons. The key is to find your own best start point and gradually build at your own pace. Which is the same principle you should apply to ANY form of training
**Under EXCESSIVE load, flexing your spine MORE than you are USED too, MAY lead to some trouble** Fixed it for you bro. Stress is needed for adaptation. Of course it's a bit of a tightrope because stress is also generally required for injury. But. And let me repeat this. Spinal. Flexion. Under. Load. Is. Safe. The science is clear as crystal. And not only is it safe, spinal flexion is needed for maximal force development. So good luck deadlifting or squatting heavy without some. Of course certain injuries such as disc related injuries need to approach with caution initially. But exposing someone to spinal flexion is critical for final stage rehabilitation.
Maybe my friend, maybe.. It wouldn't be the first time that doctors say amenities.. but what are we risking with that exercise? We are risking super-serious injuries of the back, unbearable pain, complications, stopping the gym for months/years, becoming weak because of that injury (from hulk to nothing) , money on doctors and so on. And for what? What's the benefit to reap? Is it worth the candle? In my humble opinion, no. There's nothing that the exercise in the video can do for us that deadlift and Roman Chair cannot. Oh, and deadlift is already enough of a risk.
@andrew38617 risk/reward ratio differs between individuals and is a complex mix of goals, lifestyle, training history and lots of other contextual factors. So sure, you don't need to do loaded spinal flexion. But, and again I repeat. It. Is. Safe. Provided you introduce it gently and slowly. Saying spinal flexion is bad for your back is like saying sprinting is bad for your hamstrings or knees over toes is bad for your knees. Just a silly over simplification because it also has a small potential for harm. Stop fear mongering.
Far from the strongest lifter of conventional weights. But I will pit myself against any lifter under 220lb when it comes to off balanced, awkward objects. No fear of awkward bends and twists to lift.
This is NOT me saying that technique doesn’t matter, or that ego-lifting is the answer.
In the gym, you have an extremely controlled and safe environment to gradually expose yourself to more and improve your capacity. You’re not supposed to start with a 1RM Jefferson Curl or throw away all notion of standardised technique overnight.
Rounding your back under load and exploring some of these positions will be new to some of you.
Just like I wouldn’t recommend a newbie max out on their first day in the gym, I wouldn’t recommend you start with some of the things you might see on social media immediately.
Everything is scalable, whether it’s with load, range of motion, speed or exercise altogether. Find a start point you can manage easily, and build from there.
Happy lifting! 🫡
There is no such thing as ‘’ego-lifting’’ tbh, it is just a nonsensical notion imo
@@kapoioBCSI’ve seen people load up a bar to try and bench press far more than they’re capable of based on ego and then manage to get it down and up with the worst form I’ve ever seen. 1 point of contact on the bench. That’s ego lifting
@@kapoioBCSThat's a pretty controversial conclusion to state without presenting even a single premise. 🤦🏿♂️
@@kapoioBCSthis is one of the most braindead takes I have heard in a minute
@@Mikesterpop people call anyone that’s stronger than them ego lifters or anyone that uses any amount of momentum at all. It might have meant something a while ago but it’s extremely watered down.
your back is like any other limb, extend or flex it past its limits, and it’ll get injured, and like your limbs, it requires training in full range of motion to become stronger.
🤝🤝
That last part just ain't true though.
@@redmetalpanda9051 what do you mean by that? i thought all muscles need to be trained in full range of motion.
@@mx_nana_banana it isn't a requirement. Optimal or not you can grow with sufficient stimulus. You can grow with partials, whether they are shortened or lengthened. You can grow with isometrics, especially overcoming isometrics.
Full ROM isn't as much of a priority as some coaches try to sell. I personally go with whatever gives me the best stimulus on a given exercise.
Now, I'm personally all for the deficit jefferson curl shown here, but for mobility reasons rather than hypertrophy. I wanna be able to pickup my kids and grandkids as i get older.
@@mx_nana_bananaim not sure what the other comment meant, but it could be the same issue I have with saying to “train your back in its full ROM”, which is that your spine and your back muscles really want two different things if you are focused on becoming stronger, and that is stability. You can put your back muscles though full rom without flexing your spine in any meaningful way, and you can flex your spine in ways that will snap without reaching full rom on any muscle. When getting stronger (especially for movements such as deadlifts) if your spine is used to doing “flexy” activities such as yoga, your chance of injury skyrockets because you are able to load a non-stable spine with more weight than it can handle.
TLDR: “full ROM back training” is too non-specific as you do not usually want your spine going full ROM when lifting weights.
Some people are afraid of getting a sore lower back but they don't realize that a strong lower back is key to get a big and strong upper back
Exactly right 🫡
Last time I had a sore back, it was due to L5 S1 injury and that’s permanent
I fucked my lower back on barbell squats. I got an x ray do nothing is wrong with my spine but after enough reps even with light weight my lower back gets really sore:(. Or like doing barbell rows, I think it happens because I flared my hips far back into a arch and it hurts a little less when I forceably drive my hips forward
@@charmsly9506 not x ray, you need an MRI. If you feel something is wrong with your lower back, then it is probably true. Once you destroy your lower back, there’s no coming.
@@charmsly9506you probably have some muscle stability issue at the hip or maybe not engaging ur core properly. I reccomend searching up squat university cuz he shows exercises that work wonders for back pain
This is so true. I got so drawn into the “optimal training” scene that I became obsessed and rigid. So much that I was doing more harm than good. Just staying in tune with my body and moving heavy shit mixing intuition and research has been the best for me.
People DRAMATICALLY confuse "under load" and "under appropriate load".
Obviously, using a load inappropriate for you in that movement has a higher risk. This is true for any movement, although some have an inherently higher base risk. This DOES NOT mean moving under load = injury.
Sir, please Collab with J. Nippard...❤❤🎉
Oh god, not with Nippard ffs!
I previously had a bulging disc, if I did this it would needlessly re-aggravate it. I just train lower back without excessive rounding.
Same!!!
Every movement can be scaled to your needs, capacity. You can definitely get to this kind of level. It may also help you if you have back pain or are scared of rounding your lower back.
@@faotblack8921 why would I do this if even unloaded it immediately creates pain and every single doctor and physical therapist I’ve been to said not to do this type of movement. I’m doing core work and working up to training my lower back isometrically with rows and deadlifts and through a limited range of motion with back extensions. Why would I go against the advice of all my doctors and do something that creates pain if I can still work my lower back and core in other ways?
I think the short is intended to be advise for people who currently have nil issues with their lower back. Injuries can change advice. Talk to a good physiotherapist about your back. They'll be able to provide you safe parameters to start some flexion based movement.
Lowbackability guy on yt
Bro😂😂did iliac pulldowns dirty
Kassem would be furious 😂
Yea everyone is a scientist now
which is why I like to integrate yoga into strength training, facilitating movements in so many planes of motion, facilitating fascia to move in all directions.
I can confirm I started going much lower with my back extensions into a range that other Fitness professionals say is unhealthy, when I bend over into unsafe positions I literally feel no pain, when prior there was always a risk of throwing out my back
Very true bro, no one really focuses or does any flexibility, mobility or stabilising work. Asking for an injury to happen if you neglect all them for long enough!
Just think the muscle as a whole and use 1 machine and one free weight / calisthenics movement for horizontal and vertical pull with some lower back work by
1 hyperextension
2 Deadlift .
This is not applicable to people who have previous injuries.
Also I agree with exercising your body in wide ranges of motion, but with appropriate weight. Which can be hard to figure out.
This short is a little contrarian - it is throwing shade at conventional movements with braced spines. I have nothing against controlled movements incorporating spinal flexion. However it is dangerous to do your conventional heavy deadlifts incorporating spinal flexion, and this short leaves open such dangerous movements.
You probably did more damage to your back by “reaching”,than anything you heard this man saying or doing in his short ever could. Did actually observe his movements?❤though.
most people dont know notice the details in the jefferson curl people do. the snatch grip, initiating the movement with chin tuck first and foremost, the bar path. but most importantly people find the set up to be inconvenient so they cant even get started. i mean ill be honest, in a commervial gym, i 2ould have to stack pla5es and those plates id have to be hogging from other people to use just to stand on them. not every box jump is tall enough for the average lifter as it is, and plus they just dont work well because foam box jumps dont stay as hard. in reality tho you dont need a loy of weight with it. you just need enoigh weight and enough height. but youll need to stack quite a few 45 pound bumpers and if they aint bumpers, their stackability and ability to stay grounded will vary more.
I changed to zercher hold Jefferson curls last year, best decision I ever made.
oh it need less ground clearance with zercher?
I agree 100%. The easiest way to get injured is by completely avoiding naturally acceptable human ranges of motion.
Squat University has been the primary driver for me avoiding moving my spine
I like what you are saying here but for the non natural athlete with body problems, it's so easy to damage some aspect of the back during weight training that sometimes it's better just to perform other exercise routines that do give the back some work, but not concentrated.
Gee I wonder where these body problems come from. Surely it's not this irritational demonization of any risky looking movement?
@@tomashorst9544 It can be genetics -- such as inherent spinal problems, as a for instance -- or previous training injuries or injuries accrued by simply living life.
@@MyCharleyhorse I have a diagnosed back problem, got a million times better from back training. And with heavy weights too. Heavy RDLs, dumbbell rows, weighted pullups. 0 injuries. Again this fearmongering is based on nothing. Most injuries/medical conditions only get better from frequent weight training.
@@tomashorst9544 We all vary with our physical issues; and that's my point. Not everyone physically responds the same way. Caution is called for when there are physical issues.
@@MyCharleyhorse Yeah but again, that's based on nothing. Do you have any concrete examples? Do you have any evidence of what you're saying?
Don't get me wrong, I think lifting should be done safely. But caution for the sake of caution usually just ends up with people babying themselves in the gym and getting nowhere. Even then if you do get injured, to get any kind of serious life changing injury requires the type of weight that seasoned lifters use, not newbies.
Agreeee and love this!!!!
I think this is a classic example of “just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should”. Movement through the spine is great, but loaded movement will often apply undue stress on the spinal discs, cumulating over time.
And why perform a relatively high risk activity with an extremely detrimental possible outcome?
Not detrimental at all if give yourself slow and consistent graded exposure to them starting with just Bodyweight alone and progressing to loaded ones slowly over time
Do you move your body the same way in the day to day life that you do in the gym? I have never seen someone brace every time they squat or have a perfectly braced core and a straight back when they lift something off the floor. That’s why it’s important to strengthen your body in those movements.
@@movestattoo4561 actually, yes! Professional furniture movers have rigorous weight lifting protocols to safely move what they need to. We also get manual handling training at work, which teaches you to brace and drive with the legs.
People injure themselves constantly when they lift with their back, which is why it’s part is workplace HSE regulations. Even the strongest among us develop long term back issues.
@@clintiacuone1703 that’s true for the musculature, but the discs aren’t adaptive in the same way to cumulative fatigue
@@MrKengo47discs do adapt to stressors.
No, No No.
Take a Peace Sign. 2/3's are the Legs n stance. Crazy torso.
Really correct
Progressively overloaded Jefferson curls for years, currently working 225 for 5 every week. Best my back has ever felt!
That's crazy I can never imagine doing that weight
It only takes 1 time and his back will never be the same.
But if it's "physique oriented" training, which I presume is for aesthetics, there's almost no utility and mostly risk and fatigue here.
The first exercise is called the Jefferson Curl. A great exercise for the posterior chain.
I agree with you butttt a tiny eeeny meeny problem I have is... I wanna build muscle and my goal isn't being functional bs so yeah thanks
Unless you have a double jointed backbone there is limits to the back.
I love making up my own movments .. compound movments.. as long as I'm fully stretched put the possibilities are endless. The looks I get at the gym are hilarious.. they jelly 😅
İ added end of my workout jefferson curl variation with 3x3-5
I do my bent over row like this. Was afraid at first but to my surprise, despite my rear pelvic injuries, I felt no pain.
F*ck that. The muscles are engineered to handle the load, not the spinal column. That's what muscles are for.
that’s the point, using the muscles that allow your spine to flex and extend while under proper load decreases your risk of spinal injury
@@smacc6988 that's like removing the suspension from a car
@@Sam-ed7jz If your spine is the chassis and the muscles that flex and extend the spine are the suspension, training them correctly would only smoothen the ride
@smacc6988 yes. Weight should be distributed throughout the suspension (the muscles).
@@Sam-ed7jz Right, in order to train the muscles that FLEX and EXTEND the spine, you have to FLEX and EXTEND the spine
Hey man you have awesome content . Could you please tell me which camera are you using to shooting the short video
Well our bodies are made to move 'naturally' isnt it? The way it's designed to move🧬 That's not necessarily optimal for hypertrophy tho
I’ve always said…if you are moving, you’re working something.
He is right but he also said why at the end when is only for physique you don’t worry about mobility
Moving the spine under heavy load or under high leverage is a different story though.
I never keep a rigid stiff back ESPECIALLY in physique oriented training. Nothing gets a real stretch or optimal engagement that way..
It’s not fear for no reason. Obviously we’ve over-corrected from improper training and lacking the literature to challenge the status quo. Now that we have so much information and so many connections and outlets, we can make informed decisions about what’s the proper weight, techniques and ranges of motion from both literature and anecdotal accounts.
The body is designed to move in all planes.
If you can move in a certain way then your body is obviously designed to move that way
The problem is that people do move that way often enough or they add too much weight too soon
Then it's the movement that's blamed and not the poor choice of weight or lack or mobility for that movement
Not all body parts are designed to move through full ROM under load. Even if Eugene’s point was valid, the risk of doing these exercises far outweighs the benefits in most cases due to incredibly high chance of severe injury
Spine is literally a bona, not a muscle.
Lower back is a muscle group which is indeed trained with full ROM in exercises like deficit deadlifts, good mornings,RDLs, Bent over rows.
Im not training lower back because of aestetic purposes. Small lower back means small lower abdominal, which means more of a v-tape physiche. Probably gonna bite me in the ass when I get older, but whatever.
I think the 1 thing we should keep stiff is our core
Now that i herniated my disc, i fear even more.
Yeah, your best guide would be Squat University. Shows you how to stabilize yourncore
@@jameswood1318 i really don't trust that guy. he look like he's doing for the views.
@@SteelBand17that guy helped my herniated disc 😂 maybe you just have trust issues man.
@@TranHungDao. That guy help me a lot during my early day of powerlifting
How did it happen?
What about people with spine problem like scoliosis? Is that safe?
yeah but what if you have scoliosis like me where if you don’t do a perfect RDL while bracing your core strong you get back pain, this maybe applies better to people with normal spines
Your spine isn’t like every other limb, if you start training it by rounding it out. It will lose its ability to stabilize the spine because you’re stretching and contracting it. The muscles of the spine stabilize, they don’t lift…
Dr.Mcgill says spine shouldn't be flexed or extended like that. Cuz it's not like a single bone. It's a serious of bones with disc's in between. The muscles around the spine is used for limiting the spine motion itself and not move your spine. I'm just stating what some ppl would say who are against moving spine. This comment is just for reading so don't reply to it.
Can someone explain exactly what he said I’m not good very much in english
The lower back is naturally a weak point. So chances of injury are higher.
But that's literally the point of exercise. To strengthen your weak points so you don't get injured outside of the gym. This is pretty much just squatting knees past toes all over again
full video link?
What is the name of the first exercise?
Well its a fact you dont want to be over bending your spine under load.
I do this motion but sat on the ground and with a cable attached to a bar
whats that exercise that u are laying holding the ez bar
He is doing sit ups on the GHD.
Yo you did a yoga pose with that weight .. I’ve been doing yoga for a few yrs and have built move back muscles than any other place ❤ we even add weights now to our classes
It looks like his wearing Lems shoes, am I right? 😂
( Best shoes ever)
You tell that to people that barely did anything crazy with their back and got after years a bulged disc. The spine IS NOT like any other limb of your body. It is a fragile structure, and that is why it is mostly secured by our body. That is why we always protect ourselves of getting hit from behind, CAUSE IT IS OUR WEAKNESS. That said, carefully stretching your back and training it under weird positions in a very careful way is also very beneficial to prevent injuries and have a better movement quality.
This kind of advice may be fine for those who are not hypermobile or do not have back injuries, but I think can be misconstrued.
You have to know your body and know how it responds to certain stimulus. I am hypermobile and already tend toward excessive movement so making sure my core or other muscles are properly stiffened prior to lifting a heavy load helps me to prevent injury or reinjury.
Also it should be noted that Putting the discs under load in a flexed or extended position has been shown by research time and time again to be associated with higher risk of injury. It’s better to teach novice lifters to stabilize the core and maintain neutral spine because it simply lowers the risk of injury.
Many of your statements have been debunked by research.
1. Visual assessment of spinal position is probably unreliable
2. The spine flexes out of the “neutral” zone for many common gym exercises.
3. Many of the studies that demonstrated this increased risk of injury were not done on live humans
Is for the hamstrings also?
Any dead lift variation is for the lower back, glutes and hamstrings.
Basically use it your spine
Tbh, ik the back is meant for more. Cuz I myself can flex some way that includes my back and for some odd reason it doesn’t hurt at all, that’s what made me think our backs are meant for more
I really dislike how low tier some of this content is becoming man.
1. The focus on those things is largely due to the rapid growth and adoption of BODYBUILDING. The gym has seen a significant increase in the number of people wanting to bodybuild. Through this, they have learned how to isolate specific muscles because that does matter.
2. Going through the statement of “We should load our spine in various ways” because it’s “PROBABLY” beneficial. Why say probably? Go read a study (as you should, you are a content creator with a following) and say it with certainty. Don’t be one of those content creators that just word vomits half truths and avoids any responsibility later on.
ima stick to my powerlifting dream those exercises looked too goofy
@ironmasters opiniones?
10 missing calls from jeff nippard and squat university
I don’t think you should move your spine under load, and you should train for that. If you move your spine under load it will lead to severe injury
However with your own body weight it should be done, to increase flexibility and movement
You should absolutely move your spine through all ranges slowly and progressively with responsible loading and frequency over time unless you want to end up a robotic glass back
what if i told you your bodyweight is still a load. what if you gain 2,5 kg bodyweight? what if instead if gaining bodyweight you add small dumbells and it feels fine so you slowly increase the load as you build muscle like any other movement. your idea of loading the spine is arbitrary and fearmongering.
@@clintiacuone1703 i think the risk outweighs the benefits. I’m a fireman and if you don’t train for core stiffness you will mess yourself up when carrying a 20 stone bloke down 2 flights of stairs..
Teaching your mind to move your spine freely under load is dangerous.
Maybe for people who only care about gym it’s fine, real life usage where trips and slips happen and you move things and people, up and down the stairs is what i’m trying to use my body for.
If your only physical activity exists in a controlled environment carry on experimenting, but a stiff core usually results in more power output even when it comes to boxing and other dynamic sports
@@wotanjugend974 Under responsible load is fine, i’m saying ego lifting could be dangerous when not using the right technique In real world situations. You want to teach your brain and body how to complete tasks and do them properly in real life
@@omsval1485 obviously no one is promoting ego lifting. however your original comment said any movement of the spine under load is inherently dangerous which is incorrect. if you do regular movements like squats and dealift you learn to brace the spine under load and prevent injuries. but adding movements where the spine is moving under load such as the zercher deadlift, jefferson curl and stone/sandbag lifting you further bulletproof your back by building the spinal erectors and build strength in all positions of the spine.
You ignore human biomechanic.
This exercise are injury mechanisms
You are too young.
You will understand dr. McGill whwn you get older.
Imagine anyone engaging in sport with a fully rigid and straight back-preposterous. You have no clue about human biomechanics.
@@Bon-fp4nj read other commens.
Your eyes are looking scary in this vid bruh
Better is yoga in that case I think
Because not everyone has the same goal
Just simply not worth the risk…
actually, like always, the risk is not doing it
someone that is worried about rounding and stability has higher chances of hurting themselves than someone training dynamically
@@NuwandaLunaDragon I just feel that the majority of normal folk that go to the gym just for that quick workout, keep themselves in shape or just to feel good will not nail the form needed for this to have benefits out weigh the risk.
Just my take on it, I could be wrong but yeah I just feel like that’s a no go for most people
@@PWizz91 the thing is, there's no real risk
the risk comes from using weight you can't really handle or living in fear of your own natural movements
As you say, lots of people want to train to feel good, and lots of people have back pain, yet they don't train their backs or core at full capacity leaving valuable benefits in the table
I have scoliosis and had back pain from a very young age, like, 12 years old. Luckily, I did martial arts, calisthenics, stretching and all kinds of resistance training
now, I have 0 back pain, can you imagine how would I feel 8 or 10 years later from having back pain from such a young age?
Your body is capable of moving fast, generating power, stretching and all kinds of stuff, yet we act like focusing on some aspects of what the human body can do are safe (like stamina and strength) and others are dangerous (like power and flexibility) when everything comes down to progression and patience
@@NuwandaLunaDragon great reply bud, you’ve made me think twice about my view on it
@@PWizz91 you're really reasonable and it shows great virtue to recognize consideration of opposing arguments
Mf just waffled
This feels like a Movement by David and Eugene Teo possible collaboration topic. :)
Its not that people are scared. Its just not appropriate for most who lack the stability and control to execute it!
Which is why we need to train it?
ALL exercises are scalable and can be modified to suit the individual. Just like any "regular" movement. Creating fear around a completely natural position we encounter on a daily basis is wild.
As stated in the caption, you're not supposed to start with a 1RM Jefferson curl. Find where you're currently at and slowly build at your own pace. That's literally what all exercise is about and the spine is no different
@@ahmadkhairul337🤝
Yeahhh… I’m going to listen to Arnold Schwartznegger rather than you
as with anything else its not dangerous if you arent an idiot ego lifting
Your spine is not as fragile as you think.
Just stick with the basics that’s all, no need all kinda this and that
far from it
learning from athletes, rehabilitators, different cultures, scientific literature and schools of thought is the best you can do
the benefits are infinite
There's hardly anything more detrimental than the exercise performed in this video for the health of your spine.
It isn't demonization, it's just information.
Under load, flexing your spine in that way, means asking for trouble.
And for what then? There are no benefits!
If you want a flexibile spine, you don't need weights at all.
That is simply incorrect. The evidence both in literature and anecdote from decades of experienced lifters and athletes shows that the body is resilient and adaptable, and even structures like the intervertebral discs can adapt positively to exercise, albeit slower than muscles and tendons.
The key is to find your own best start point and gradually build at your own pace. Which is the same principle you should apply to ANY form of training
**Under EXCESSIVE load, flexing your spine MORE than you are USED too, MAY lead to some trouble**
Fixed it for you bro. Stress is needed for adaptation. Of course it's a bit of a tightrope because stress is also generally required for injury. But. And let me repeat this. Spinal. Flexion. Under. Load. Is. Safe. The science is clear as crystal. And not only is it safe, spinal flexion is needed for maximal force development. So good luck deadlifting or squatting heavy without some.
Of course certain injuries such as disc related injuries need to approach with caution initially. But exposing someone to spinal flexion is critical for final stage rehabilitation.
Maybe my friend, maybe.. It wouldn't be the first time that doctors say amenities.. but what are we risking with that exercise?
We are risking super-serious injuries of the back, unbearable pain, complications, stopping the gym for months/years, becoming weak because of that injury (from hulk to nothing) , money on doctors and so on. And for what? What's the benefit to reap? Is it worth the candle?
In my humble opinion, no.
There's nothing that the exercise in the video can do for us that deadlift and Roman Chair cannot. Oh, and deadlift is already enough of a risk.
@andrew38617 risk/reward ratio differs between individuals and is a complex mix of goals, lifestyle, training history and lots of other contextual factors. So sure, you don't need to do loaded spinal flexion. But, and again I repeat. It. Is. Safe. Provided you introduce it gently and slowly.
Saying spinal flexion is bad for your back is like saying sprinting is bad for your hamstrings or knees over toes is bad for your knees. Just a silly over simplification because it also has a small potential for harm. Stop fear mongering.
Far from the strongest lifter of conventional weights. But I will pit myself against any lifter under 220lb when it comes to off balanced, awkward objects. No fear of awkward bends and twists to lift.
Wtf I'm doing this exercise for almost 6 months 😢