Hey! If you're new to People Make Games and finding us through the UA-cam homepage or some other recommendation, do take a look at our other stuff. We upload short gaming documentaries -- just like this one -- every few weeks. Thanks :)
Yep, found this in my recommended. Very high quality video and good journalism for a game I've literally never heard of, I'm checking out your other works now :)
Everyone talking about all of the mental gymnastics in that interview but can we mention how he went full force with the questions and didn't hold back at all, I appreciated a lot.
Yeah, I noticed he wasn't letting the CEO off the hook at all. He didn't say it all at once, he was able to spread out his points over the questions as well.
I'm going to give props to both sides. It's VERY clear where both sides were coming from and the CEO didn't ditch five minutes after he started with the discussion of gambling. Most of these scum would be like "I no longer wish to be interviewed" And disconnect. So kudos all around...
Right?? Like I just found this video after watching a few others and he not only tried to manipulate him with empathy(getting hurt after saying life’s a gambler) but also lying that it’s not a gambling game just because they hide the word gambling with partners and investors..
I thought the CEO was also quite reasonable. No one wins when the players go bankrupt. We have to focus on some self responsibility. How would someone who isn't an adult transfer money into the game anyways? Maybe I am old school, but I could only use credit cards to get anything when I was in my teens in the late 90s early 2000s.
mrman991 clearly... I can see why he has to act that way, it’s practically his pay and job on the line if he missteps by completely admitting to a full gambling operation. And I _SERIOUSLY_ don’t want to just get a person’s rando perspective on what is rng and how it can/can’t be okay. Good on him for getting an interview with a person about this _ehhhhhh(shady)_ strategy/platform.
I honestly would have no problems with their business model if they were up front about "Yea our game ultimately is gambling because you can have profit or loss by playing it" But nope, lots of inconsistent arguments that try to frame their game in a way that can skirt government regulations
At first I was like "this is cool, I bet he's going to softball like every other interviewer" Then I was like "holy shit this madlad is the most savage fucking straight to the point and finding the truth guy I've ever seen"
My genuine, most sincere, and greatest respect for going as hard as you did in that developer interview. I could practically hear the whirring of gears as that robot attempted to resolve the inconsistencies of his own argument.
It was pretty simple really, the rules around gambling are already defined so they designed the game to make it isn't considered gambling. Regulators claiming it's gambling if it feels like gambling is just because they want their CUT. They don't give a shit about gambling, they just want their damn taxes and regulation fees.
Gotta love that guy's roundabout way of saying "we only do what the law tells us and, so long as it's profitable, we couldn't care less about the morality or ethics of what we're doing. Oh, and if those laws ever start to turn, you know damn well we're going to use every trick in the lobbyist's handbook to ensure they don't change."
The way he kept hitting the phrase "skill-based game" made me realize that Entropia is designed to function like the carnival games along the midway at a fairground. The kind of game that has had a reputation for being rigged against the player and bilking suckers for money for well over a century.
TBF it's not like this is new. It's actually becoming more prevelant (and kinda terrifying with some large companies pushing NFTs). Also, NGL, he isn't wrong, just very obviously tactful. Everything in life is a gamble and far too much of it is glossed over or glamorized as an "investment". Gaming as a whole is basically telling you to gamble for your fun. Pay for this game or buy this Microtransaction and you "might" have a more enjoyable experience; you definitely won't get any money back. If anything awful return setups and exploitative conditions like this just help to reveal the many many problems with capitalism. Which wouldn't be that bad (not like socialism doesn't have its many problems), if for whatever reason society felt the need to glamorize capitalism as an idea and ignore it's problems or even attack attempts to criticize it.
It was funny but it was a pretty terrible interview with loaded questions. Not that he didnt deserve them they are very valid but if journalism is what he's going for he was waaaay too biased. Again, very fair points but this game is more interesting than just "the devs are exploitative assholes".
"Is your game gambling?" David gulps with anxiety. His self-tanning lotion had stained the button-up he had on in the club the night before. He wishes he had gotten some sleep. He began to think he was ill prepared for the occasion... He took a deep breath and said, "Well, life's a gamble really...". There it was. He had done it! crisis averted.
Yeah, that's the vibe I get. He 100% knows his game is a gambling game, but for legal reasons he cannot say that on the record or it puts his company on the hook.
@@myopiczeal I agree with Anarchy - they know, he knows. But admitting it would open the floodgates to all sorts of regulations and banns in place for gambling - which are there for a good reason, mind you, and I very much disapprove of circumventing these regulations simply by claiming it isn't gambling. One can't be realy surprised, when taken the lack of actions by lawmakers and lawenforcements into account, that companies like EA tried to sell lootboxes as not being gambling. Why wouldn't they try it? Robox and Entropia have shown that you CAN get away with it if you are somewhat low-profile about it.
is it a gambling game though? Itd be hard to answer immedietly, especially when theres legal weight behind your words. its following a very narrow minded view to see an mmo as gambling. the people *chose* to put in their own money. but at its core it's a skill based game - you can grind yourself up. the only difference here is players can earn real world money. and expect a return.
My spidey senses went crazy the instant the developers rep came on the screen. I never had a clearer sense that someone is lying in my life. He was tap dancing so hard. He absolutely knows EXACTLY what he's doing. Skirting the laws as close as he possibly can. "Responsible gaming" = responsible gambling.
The ethics of capitalism as work. All the corporation is able to say is "We don't have an ethical stance, and we have gone to the lengths to be ethical as required by law." and "Laws that regulate us are silly and should not be implemented."
Yup you could tell he just flat out couldn't admit it was gambling because it would destroy his gaming despite outright saying EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN IS GAMBLING! So by that logic your game is gambling then right? Uh.... shit... NOPE!
The thing is with the definition of the interviewer of gambling - the stock market would be considered gambling. The difference between investing and gambling is that investing has a way to mitigate losses for example if your property in this game loses value you can choose to sell at any point. With gambling you can win it all or lose it all there is no inbetween. The fact that the games developer doesn't try to compare his game to investing is weird to me because it would be really easy to argue for it.
@Telleva I think the key phrase there is “if it ever does”. You are essentially gambling on the stock eventually going up, just as you are on this game making money vice losing. The developer’s logic does sound scummy, but is nonetheless fairly sound. By the criteria provided, anything you wanted to consider gambling, would therefore be gambling simply because you consider it so.
@@BulborbStare If it's known that the company presents solid products with solid profits the stock will rise naturally from interest, for example Coca-Cola, Apple, Samsung, other big companies like that. Gambling in the literal sense of the word means a risky investment and there are stock on the market that are not risky at all, you can have an idea that Google, Apple, Samsung, X amount of companies FOR SURE won't go bankrupt in the near future much less tomorrow. If you put your money in entropia you are nearly guaranteed to loose it, just like in a casino.
@@tudoproductions you’re never “for sure” going to make money on the stock market. Stocks are just rich people gambling, just like this game is poor people gambling. I never said the game wasn’t gambling. Just that his logic makes some sort of sense wether you like it or not
@@Dom-cq8pw Man, I dunno how to tell you this but investing is just gambling that capitalism has primed you to believe is normal and healthy for anyone but the 1%. The stock market *is* gambling, pure and simple.
I think he does have an actual point. Obviously he doesn't want to use the world gambling for legal reasons, but I think the case with EU is: You CAN just purely gamble like in a casino, of course, but that's not what the game IS in it's totality. You can very very easily just play EU as a subscription MMO, pay 10, 25, 50 USD a month, whatever you can afford, and just go off hunting or mining on that budget. You are aware your money will run out, and it's not a reasonable expectation to "hit it big" or even end up at a zero sum. It really is more like a choose your own adventure, subscription MMO, with the option to gamble, gamble big in fact if you want, but you don't have to. It's a very difficult position to communicate effectively though, without attaching words to your company/game you don't want to be used against it, especially since a lot of people DO decide to gamble.
@@realandimaginedxyz You can literally say the same thing about slot machines. "You can very very easily just play the slots as a subscription. You know, pay $10, $25, $50 a month, whatever you can afford, and just play on that budget. You are aware of your money will run out, and it's not a reasonable expectation to quote hit it big quote or even end up at a zero sum."
"also I fell off a bike last week so if you could be a bit more empathetic that would be appreciated. Also we changed the minimum required age to 18 because we are totally not a gambling platform"
@@PeidosFTW so instead of using his own words against him you stoop to his level and misrepresent him, cause thats how you destroy an ideology or industry/business. Helpful idiots like you is why we are always on a downward spiral nowadays.
That is such a huge mis-characterization of his argument. What he meant is that there are essentially two definitions of what gambling can be and people are often conflating the two. Just like he decided to take his bike to work, thus risking a potential accident, and while it technically could be defined as "gambling your life" that does not mean that it is a negative thing or that it falls under the legal definition of gambling.
but, is it possible to go into poker and grind yourself up slowly, and expect a return? no. its clearly just a skill based game. and it would just be another stale mmo that someone can put money into. but the difference is, theres a return for your time and/or money spent. so, yes, you could compare it to poker. but theres a fallacy mixed in there somewhere to call this gambling by that definition. ... its closer to a low paying job you can put money into to increase your salary XD
@@iceneko9170 Except, you cannot expect a return in this game, on average you will always lose money. If anything, it's possible to be good enough at poker that you actually can gain money, which is not the case here at all. The entire reason this legal distinction exists, is because of the gambling industry. If your defense is gambling legislation, you're probably a gambling company.
"Is this gambling?" *"3 weeks ago I broke my collar bone because I took the bike instead of an car so that was a gamble which also means it's a skill"*
@Nathan-DTS Didn't he say he was from Sweden, or am I misremembering? I don't know what UK law says about foreign citizens taking public office, but I wouldn't count on the Tories to be the first party to test it. They allied with UKIP for a reason.
He literally can't legally say that it's gambling. Any admissions made can be used against him in court in case there is a big landmark case that changes the interpretation of the law on "online gambling".
I have to say that the subtle references to the UK gambling awareness slogans is amazing: "When the fun stops, stop", "Play responsably". It's kinda funny that the developper didn't pick up on those!
Worst thing about the loot boxes is that they can't be opened without buying keys for real money off the website. Almost everything else in game is for sale in the game... hmmmm....
... wasn't the fact that you can't cash out whatever comes in a lootbox a big part of the reason it was decided it shouldn't be legally considered a form of gambling?
Wow, that guy did not seem ready to be asked any of the obvious questions. Fantastic preparation from Quinns on the questions though, you could tell he anticipated almost every answer and had followups. Nice job folks!
This was actually our second interview with MindArk, interestingly. We didn't use the first one as it was with someone from the marketing side of the business and he didn't feel comfortable answering many of Quinns' questions. Afterwards, they suggested we speak with the company's chairman and former-CEO, as he would be the best fit for the topics we wanted to discuss. So yeah, both sides had a bit of practice before that second conversation! -Chris
@@PeopleMakeGames the *second* interview after hearing the questions to the first person and he still wasn't expecting non-fluff questions? that's just crazy to me.
@@PeopleMakeGames so... They knew at least of the questions coming into this and actually stayed for longer than the first 2 questions? I was expecting him to hang up. It's insane and so self-involved. Well done.
@@PeopleMakeGames why don't you ask questions directly to the community? in the forum and in discord we are all. it is more you should create a thread in our forum. ask your questions and then show our answers here. (you even got to interview the best player. his name is messi91. and you could also interview the worst and most complaining player. and do it openly to everyone. why not?)
Because they aren't a giant publication with many employees to pay, that can't afford to lose a partnership with a company who might stop giving them exclusive interviews and free review copies of games
Think it quite rude, journalists outta be a bit more respectful. Guy kept asking the same question, "is your game gambling?" just phrased differently. Journalists like this just try to keep asking the same question until the interviewee gets mad enough to at least give them partially the answer that they were looking for perhaps by mistake. I think that doing that is just a really underhanded and scummy thing to do.
@@AnneWest_ how so? The man being interviewed is clearly lieing about the fact it is not journalism. By re phrasing the question there can be information he drops or be caught off guard. The journalist has every right to investigate and point out the lies this man is telling. What is he supposed to do? Give softball questions and as soon as he says "this is not gambling" move on? The questiond asked a lot are based around law and how it has changed. Imo this is great journalism that is about finding the truth, and bringing it to light. Even by the lack of response from all the different questions we the audience can see through the shadey bs. This isn't "scummy"
@@AnneWest_ This is precisely what professional interviews contain though? This game is gambling. the point is to get him to admit it is gambling by rephrasing the question until they slip up.
"Is your game a gambling game" "You gamble everyday being alive and doing anything" "Does that include playing your game" "No" is probably the best thing I'll ever hear that infuriated me equally as much. Might as well ask the kid with his face covered in chocolate what happened to your chocolate bar.
If i was that guy i would rather be honest about it and say that yes, it is gambling, but many players enjoy their time in the game. Also at this point this game is less of a casino and more like a full economical system
@@tormodhag6824 the problem with him admitting that is that a loooot of governments will be coming for their ass to tax the shit out of it, thats why he will not say it
@@Davineitor005 Yeah, I don't blame him honestly.. I'd rather have this game exist than never having heard of it. It's a cool ass concept however your stance on it is
@@richthedick well im open to all opinions if you feel that way then i guess i cant change that but im saying he refuses to say its gambling and trys not to discredit the game by wording what he says super carefully as if a lawyer was in the background telling him what to say now that i explain it it is a little less funny but i hope you still get it
I would've argued: Magic the Gathering is a card game that sell packs of random cards with an active player market. Excluding the online version, the only way to play is to invest money into cards, enjoy the game [Magic the Gathering]. Then, once you're finished with the game, you sell the cards you've gathered to other players and make some to all your money back. Through this process, you've payed for an experience like any other game or consumable and at the end you're able to sell these cards to make some to all of your money back. Of course, there'll be players that over-invest and players that try to make a profit. However on our side of things, we are just wanting to make a great experience for people to enjoy.
@@littlemonztergaming8665 As a pretty hardcore MTG player I can tell you MTG is 100% gambling. Players spend hundreds of dollars on decks so they can win at their local game store and earn store credit. This is how they justify the expense because in a way they often make back more money(in store credit) than they spent in the first place. Of course the opposite can happen as well. I've personally been part of this cycle. I don't regret it cause I had fun and it was a great social experience. It's partly because I understand the risks that I feel this way. I might go back to playing once the Covid crisis is over.
There is a lot to this game that the guy who made this video doesn’t know. There is a way to play this game to maximize return and minimize loss, the skill system in the game, while raising the cost per shot etc also raises the return. There’s skills you train specifically to increase loot returns. As much as this game is gambling, at its very core and from the people who have played it since it released there is a LOT of knowledge of the game that if you possess you can play this game at least breaking even if not profitable.
@@joshuarickards2595 So it's like poker then? If you have higher skill you can influence the rng to be more favorable. Still sounds like gambling. You must understand, gambling has a pretty simple definition you put money in and hope based on some RNG that money comes out higher. And yes, by this definition even trading bitcoin is gambling (as has been voiced by many a seasoned investor)
@@LuanHimmlisch I don't think that defense holds here. David was given a very easy question about concern for player welfare. "If the value of items in the game crashed for reasons outside the control of the studio, would you be concerned for your most invested players." There is no legal reason I can think of to not say "Yes, I'd be concerned for everyone invested in the game, the players and the developers." David's answer clearly shows a complete lack of empathy on his part.
@Chem Lazy?? That is dedication and resolve to do all that work to gain currency in any kind. Game or not, it still require dedication and resolve and skills to go professional and invest your time and money on it. It is not lazy anymore but just another form of work.
As someone who worked in the gambling industry, you're absolutely spot on about "self exclusion". We were told catagorically that we were not allowed to approach someone who was a problem gambler and ask them to consider self exclusion. A gambler had to come to us and ask to self exclude and for how long. During one staff training meeting, a description of someone who was a gambling addict was given to us, and the trainer jokingly referred to them as sounding "like our ideal customers, and they are! But these are gambling addicts" and went on to talk about Gamcare and the legislation in place to protect them and how we could get around it.
LOL , I gamble maybe once or twice a year with friends and often end up losing all my money (I bring only certain amount of money to gamble and wont go over that number ever) but I dont understand how people can gamble and lose their shit all the time yet still continue to do it.
Ah, we gacha player quite friendly with that phrase too Theres someone with insanely bad luck try over and over again till hit the number that f2p would realize how bad the rates are
When he talks about talking to players that are spending too much its exactly what casinos tell you to tell gamblers when you get hired. Its very obvious that this is a gambling game.
oh man, what a blast from the past. I played this game maybe 15 years ago (!!) and I still remember mining the sweat off those ugly pig looking mobs in the starting zone, literally scraping the sweat off of a pig to sell. you really start at rock bottom in that game edit: just saw that you still do that to this day, lol
It's like "Technically yes, but legally no". But by the way he was talking, it seems like that would change to "Legally yes" if the devs say that it is indeed gambling, so he has to avoid it really hard. I'm not certain but laws can be funny like that and he talks like that's the case.
I just came back to rewatch the masterful interview at the end of the video - one of the best business-focused interviews I've ever seen from games journalism.
its pc game industry biggest scam (employees of that company using super powered wpns). That david simonds giving and selling super items to his real life friends. lol lololololo. Glad i withdrew mannnyyy years ago. Gambling addiction :)
17:34 It is important to point out that although "Right, OK" in the rest of the world means "I understand what you are saying", in Britain it actually means "You are a lunatic and I am a polite, restrained person, who will move on from this regrettable moment".
You could see the landmine explode in that developer's face with the question about self-exclusion. Oh Quinns, and the rest of the PMG team, you guys do have teeth, don't you! Love it!
absolutely, the very existence of self-exclusionary resources means it is gambling or at least addictive and harmful. But it can be tough to get that into words.
4 Months ago...... OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Last year.... I guess no one should watch it or I guess it isn't relevant anyone, right Willem, you right Willem, you get'em, got'em, Goodem!
@@taintedmyth0s636 I think just constantly asking him about is it gambling would have been annoying. Of course the CEO knows its gambling but its obviously not in his best interest to say it in a interview so asking about it 10 times just makes you sound like a douchebag too.
What I expected: "Hey guys! Check out this game review video that isn't explicitly and ad but I'm going to be very forgiving and charitable to the game! What I got: *Hardcore investigative journalism* Earned a subscriber for sure.
1. It's a way to get their product and message out there, and even try to defend it against accusations of gambling, on someone else's dime. A marketing dream. 2. It wouldn't exactly look good if they refused to respond to this kind of question.
- "Is your game gambling?" - "No, not at all" - "But it's all about paying money for something and hoping to get a higher return" - "No and let me tell you why. I fell off my bike and hurt my shoulder" - "Okay, but this doesn't answer the question" - "It does. If you buy a bar of chocolate and sell that bar of chocolate for the same money you've not bought or sold anything" - "The players even say it's 100% gambling" - "I've already told you I fell off my bike..." - *face palm*
He can't legally say it's gambling because then he would admit that he's guilty and therefore would be open to legal actions. It's just a stupid question to ask.
Well he is kinda right tho. Sure, these assets are digital which isn't considered as real physical things in many laws but what he described makes sense. Buying land for the possibility of a higher return in a game is the same as in the real world as long as everyone agrees to the rules of the free market. Real estate markets can crash in real life too so where exactly is the difference? As far as I know there are no real casinos in the game so you can't directly gamble for money. The "gamble" part in the game is the same as in real life where people invest money in risky assets.
@@no_alias_for_me Except real life investing has a net positive return on average. There is still risk, but if you diversify you will almost certainly come out ahead over time barring economic collapse. If the odds are stacked against you and the average result is net loss for players, that's not investing. They say most successful wealthy people are actually quite risk averse. This game sounds WORSE than gambling because not only are the odds stacked against you, but you have to put in a ton of work also. So now you have to pit the profits you probably won't make against your time and effort so you will probably lose there too. Imagine if, in addition to putting down $5 to get into a blackjack game at a casino, you also had to mop the floor for an hour. They're basically charging players to maintain the casino. The smartest move in that situation is don't play blackjack at all and just make $0.02 an hour mopping their floors. LOL
No, seems like he explained the difference between a gamble and gambling. Flying in a plane is a gamble, playing the lottery is gambling Driving to work is a gamble, cards with stakes is gambling. There is a difference. Everything in life is a gamble, that doesn't mean it's gambling
@@wulfkriger3356 Yeah... but there's a difference between taking a risk getting in an aircraft, and buying a ticket to one of ten different aircraft, nine of which are *going to crash*.
You really shouldn't appreciate being an asshole to a guy that obviously can't officially call his game a gambling game but still tried to imply that it is
@@aramikami it's not being an asshole if you're being lied to and you call out a lie. Like yeah, it makes the interviewee uncomfortable, but if I'm lying to your face and you call me out, who's the asshole?
@@timothymclean yes, they all want money, but some actually do give a shit about how they get it. This guy and EA don't. I think Rockstar was also pivoting hard and tried to get children to complain to their government to not mess with lootboxes. Say what you will, but there are companies that fought hard for lootboxes and companies that didn't give a shit about them. Lootboxes only take away from the qualities a game should have to be entertaining. Otherwise you didn't actually make a compelling game, you just went for no-effort-addiction mechanics.
I didn't need to check the timecode to know what moment you were talking about, but I clicked it just to see that dude panicking again. Poor man did NOT expect to get grilled this hard 😂
“How do you keep people from paying to much money?” “We have them contact us if they feel they spend to much” Hmmm, kinda sounds like a gambling hotline????
Because it is. Its not others holding a gun to your head,, that you have to Sell yer moms house, is it ? Teake responsibility for your own life back, and dont blame others. Thats chiulish and weak. And if you think yu ARE weak, which is totally ok, then maybe look for help in a professional manner ? A psychatrist, or a siacial worker etc ? Thats what i often experience : People are no ok with giving themselves a status, they have. People are weak, sometimes, and thus, need help. But that does not mean, others are responsible for the weakness and should "take care "or "act respnibly". Noppe, thats not how life works. Never. Nowhere.
@@Sarimae23 true but if it was labeled as gambling, it would be way more regulated which it should be. They're just trying to stay in their own lawless little world where they can do what they want.
@@Sarimae23 The point is not that it shouldn't be allowed to operate, but rather that it should be regulated and advertised as the thing that it is. Players should know that what they are getting into is gambling rather than some kind of investment. But that is not how it is being advertised.
This weirds me out, I work as a bookie and a lot of the slogans and lines he fires out are line the gambling commission in the UK themselves use. Real shady.
now with the laws changing soon about gambling in games I'm pretty sure he is just trying to stay out of the radar and try to protect Entropia from completely shutting down.
The whole "Game Responsibly / Responsible Gaming" phrase he kept using kept reminding me of "Gamble Aware/ Responsible Gambling/ Gamble Responsibly" slogans haha
"We contact people who spend too much." So you check on them like a casino employee and (I hope) refer them to gambling addiction resources. How is the game itself not gambling?
@@jimsmith3715 The OP suggested that since you can get addicted to something that involves spending money like you can at a casino that the thing is also a casino.
"So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, is it probably a duck?" "Pffft no, absolutely not! That's.. it's such a narrow-minded, uh, ridiculous, to me, statement."
Are you Patrick star? yes. Is this your ID? yes. I found this ID in this wallet so that makes this wallet yours. Makes sense to me. So this is your wallet. "Pffft no, absolutely not! That's.. it's such a narrow-minded, uh, ridiculous, to me, statement."
hahha I actually "played" this game 10+ years ago. I remember collecting sweat and then I decided to "invest" $10 to buy a gun so I could hunt some monsters. I bought 2 guns for myself and my IRL friend, and soon realized that I wasn't making any progress in the game, losses were always bigger then gains. eventually stopped playing.
same here, people said you should get sweat to gain enough money for guns and ammo but i had 11k sweat and that wouldn't get me more than a few bullets so i spend 10bucks, bought ammo,armor and a weapon and went hunting those tiny birds. Had a global of 37usd, spend all that on ammo and repairs and didn't find anything worth jack next global i got was again after i spend money again
@@TPkills Actually. No. When posed with the question "Is your game Gambling?" Answering "We follow the laws and regulations to ensure it isn't" Is breaking one of Grice's maxims. Specifically the Quantity one. No one asked for laws, and he mentioning laws makes it seem like they are threading carefully between those laws. What he is actually saying is "It is not, legally, in this country, gambling." That's why he then gets mad about gambling laws actually considering games.
@@TPkills yes but unlike you who made two fallacies in the process of expressing your disagreement, i actually explained mine, and dare i say- quite welll.
@@TPkills gotta agree with @Seba on this one, this game is gambling that doesn't necessarily make it bad, what is bad is their reluctance to call it one and how they sell It to players that can be harmful to them.
That CEO's entire lexicon in that interview sounded exactly like conversations at a gambling software studio I worked for. Every single response of his was based on removing focus from the specificity of the question and trying to reduce it to a personal responsibility that for some reason, the people at gambling companies are not also subject to. Gambling companies only profit if you lose more than you win - so in order to entice you in they need to obfuscate the nature of the game as much as possible. That means telling you to "Game Responsibly", like it's a reasonable assumption that playing too much of ANY game will result in you losing your goddamn house. That guy's a fuckin slimeball.
when his response to if its gambling was to completely change subject talking about how he fell off his bike and broke his collarbone.. i was at a loss for words. i'd have hung up the call right there, he's not interested in a debate or honest conversation. anything he'd say is probably on his website already, vetted for assurance.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD yes but that's like saying drinking alcohol isn't any worse than any other drugs because if you consume too much of anything you'll also die. You're distracting the topic from your actual point, by making the subject of debate more broad and vague. We're not talking about playing any game, just gambling games. The comparison proves nothing.
@@PlaylistGeneral "We're not talking about playing any game, just gambling games" - "like it's a reasonable assumption that playing too much of ANY game will result in you losing your goddamn house"
TBF he at least had the balls to come on for an interview where he'd get asked these questions (and probably knew he would). Nowadays you could put nearly every other big company game developer on and ask them about Microtransactions or their in game economy or loot boxes and they'd answer the same way or (more likely) not at all.
the economy of this game reminds me of the economy during the housing bubble. assets (deeds) tied to shares of the revenue from selling overvalued houses? just like a CDO.
I must say I really enjoy the way PMG integrates their ads. You don't hide it but by being creative I'm much more inclined to sit through them. Well done to the whole team.
Thanks Glen. Patreon is, by far, our biggest source of income... but it's not quite enough to fund all three of us and the travel expenses we sometimes have. So those sponsorships end up being a massive help, but we do try our best not to be completely boring about it. -Chris
I have to tell ya a story, I wasn't around when you made this. I used to run a newspaper that sold for 0.05 ped. I figured out the original mining system and figured out how to tell where motherloads would be. I told a newspaper in game that gave where certain resources would be mainly located. And accepted donations of resources if someone hit it big. I kept those resources until they finally changed the mining system. Then of course, resources became more scarce, so I sold them high. And purchased the "stocks" in different aspects of the game. And simply make small amounts of cash each month with those stocks which lets me play without adding money into the game. I haven't really hit it big, but it lets me play for free.
Or any other game that allows player trading and has rare items and currency. Whether they expressly allow it or not, people always buy and sell with real world money if there's a way to do it.
Rs black markets are against the rules though. At least osrs. Jamflex harvesting money from rs3 whales is an entirely different thing though.. Osrs black markets and gambling is such an interesting topic. Some people are making tons of real money from scripts, gold, scams, bugs and schemes. And now that i think about it, duel arena gamblers are a real thing.
@@fortheloveofnoise I wouldn’t say the company as a whole are, more like ex-employees and possibility existing ones too. Corruption must exist to some extent.
advanced psychology and high-level mathematics or even mind reading is a skill, you might not have it, and you go against the odds all the time, but hey it's a skill that would make you better at this game.
Well he does have a point tho. Ppl dont consider the stock market a casino either even tho it is. Something being considered gambling or not seems more based on the aestetics then on wheter something is actually gambling.
tacob0 Something to do with gambling doesn’t HAVE to be about a casino. Of course the stock market isn’t a casino, just like how betting on a fortnite game doesn’t necessarily happen at a casino. There is more to investing than it being just a gamble, but if you don’t take that into mind and just put your money into some random stock without any thought, it would be purely a gamble.
@@mcsponge3899 There is more to poker to, But its still gambling. There is no stock that is guaranteed to do well no matter how much research you did. (research into a company is not nearly as important as buying low btw.) The only difference between the stock market and a casino is that the person gambling in the casino more often did a usefull job to make his money.
That was so uncomfortable watching the developer interview, but it's absolutely admirable how you pressed the issue. This is games Journalism I can get behind.
"there's no advantage of us as a company to have people getting them selves into trouble" after the player re-mortgaged their property to spend in your game.
@@fieldrequired283 that implies they give a damn about long term viability. They'd have a fucking laugh if they could squeeze out every single penny from all their players' bank accounts tomorrow, and shut down the game a day later. Capitalism is all about next quarter earnings, not sustainable models. They'd just sing all the way to the bank and then start up their next grift if outright and explicit preying on their userbase was not likely to get them into hot water with the law.
Lmao yeah.. blame the game dev's for an adult's decision to re-mortgage his house. Can't sympathize with someone doing something that stupid willingly knowingly. Hopefully the idiot uses that as a learning lesson and doesn't do it again
What he meant is that there are essentially two definitions of what gambling can be and people are often conflating the two. Just like he decided to take his bike to work, thus risking a potential accident, and while it technically could be defined as "gambling your life" that does not mean that it is a negative thing or that it falls under the legal definition of gambling.
@@trime547 i understood what he meant but i still believe he is trying to take away from the severity of the situation around his product. people can invest ungodly sums and lose that money at a 0.9 return or lower. any CEO defending his product would likely have a similar response and they have to make their money somehow which i respect but using a biking accident as an example to compare to a video game's market economy is like comparing pears to tomatoes.
I've been at those kinds of parties, you'd be surprised how similar the conversations were. I met millionaires who'd made their money via baby swimming lessons, selling fruits and vegetables, and importing Coca Cola.
Oh man, this is game brings back childhood memories. I will say the community in Entropia was amazing - I still remember the in-game radio shows that were hosted, and the time I attended a big beach party headed by the radio host. I ended up putting like 15-20? bucks into the game as a kid and bought a vehicle. I partnered with some other guy who had a boat and we basically just drove people around like taxis for PEDs. Never played it long enough to make good cash off of it, but it was just fun to do. I think the people who really profit are those who find a side angle that the game didn't consider. Also something I recall about the stations and land etc. - sure, it sounds great that you buy an island and then just profit off of it, but there were also upkeep costs and like, rates? I think that you had to pay to the game. So at the end of the day money was always filtered back to the game itself.
That guy you interviewed seemed crooked af, he should be a politician. Also, what happens if a whole bunch of people cash out, could the company cope? Also, great interview, it would have been easy to only loosely talk about, or, side step those issues.
I think their is a thing if total game revenue goes under a certain amount they lock it. It's also not that easy most people who are far up there invest their money into land because the games currency plummets certain times of the year while land only gets more expensive. It can take years to find a buyer for a piece of land
18:30 you really had him stumped, he didn't have an off-the-cuff deflection. Good job. Really love the visual elements throughout this video, and the designs for each type of player. Great stuff.
I mean if you think about it, drinking games are just skill games on how much you can drink, so it wouldn't be s drinking game, it would be a skilled based gsme
@@joelambert7128 I think it's because gambling has two forms or something, luck based and skilled based. Like a chess match with a bet feature on who wins is technically gambling but you can make an educated guess at who will win, while luck based gambling is, well, complete luck. Not sure what the actual laws around it are though, if it's even a legal distinction. Might just a a PR term since this interview is public.
@@joelambert7128 the fact he has to keep repeating it makes it clear that no, it's not purely a skill based game, like chess or Call of Duty. It can at the same time be a gambling game-they're not mutually exclusive (poker being a good example) and the interviewee simply dodges the question with some X Factor sob story about breaking his collar bone, instead of just admitting it.
"Is Entropia a gambling game?" "Everything is a gamble. I gambled taking my bike instead of a car and broke a bone." "So Entropia has a gambling aspect?" "No" *Closes tab*
"You can't make money from playing Entropia, but you CAN make money from the players" Ah, the old adage of "During the gold rush, you don't go digging for gold. You sell pickaxes"
Watching this and especially the interview, makes me glad I haven't actually committed to my urge to go back to this game. One big thing I didn't know till now, my character, and therfore all the time and money I put into the game are gone. That would have hurt a lot more to find out while logging back in with the expectation of starting off where I was before.
I like how he chuckled when you pinned him down on the contradiction arising from helping players with their irresponsible (read: gambling) behavior, while at the same time claiming there is no significant gambling element to the game that goes beyond the inherent "gamble" that resides in regular life events or games. He knew he couldn't answer that question so he just took a second to compose a response that would target the person behind the argument, going for the classic "you're really adamant about this" rebuttal. It's like he's conceding without formally saying "I concede, it's a game with strong gambling elements that makes a large portion of its revenue through deeply irresponsible player behavior." Well done People Make Games, really well done. This interview would've been so much smoother if he just admitted the obvious but he probably can't because of legal issues surrounding the classification of a "gambling game". This company obviously designed a highly complex game with loads of ways to exploit people's sensitivity to gambling, so they're not just aware of these elements, they designed and implemented each and every one of them deliberately. It would've been nice to hear what they truly think about their game and the gambling industry; you could've argued that every major game has strong gambling elements in their looting systems and they could've argued that, unlike other games, they give the player opportunities to obtain the "house edge" through investing, to not participate in the gamble, or to improve their ROI closer or even over 100% through skillful and strategic gameplay, unlike many other games. This would change the debate from "it's gambling and that's bad" vs. "it's not gambling" to "yeah it's gambling, but really, how bad is that, and how do we compare to other more standard-formula MMO games in the gaming industry?". All in all, I don't think this company is particularly malevolent, but definitely has only one thing in mind and that's maximizing profits. This is a classic example of a case where more regulation is needed because virtually no company is going to cut its profits voluntarily for some philanthropic cause such as protecting people from their own irresponsible behavior. It's too bad, but it's hard to really sit here and contemplate about it while every company in the world works and operates on exactly the same primary principle, which is to maximize profits without breaking the law.
Not the same. There are fixed stocks, for the most part. With a randomized looter on a timer, there's an influx of goods at a regular rate. Which means it's more profitable to go looting yourself than it is to buy an item. So unless you want a very specific thing, you're not going to buy, lowering demand for selling. Also, since the conversion rate is fixed, it's not really an investment to buy anything anyway. You're at a much higher risk of losing it than a bank, and it's not growing in value. It's directly linked to cash, so it's just cash. If there was really a demand in value for the items, then the game company itself would be purchasing the items as an investment.
My favorite part was the Freudian slip when he said they have lawyers that help them determine what they can and can't do. He straight up said to your face that they go out of their way to tow the line of legality.
Ah, this p.o.s former CEO is exactly like I expected, I have no problems with games fueled by real money economies but this guy won't answer any simple questions because he KNOWS it's ethically unjustifiable, so he just keeps defaulting to the law. "Do you see a problem with offering services to help players suffering from gambling problems while denying there is a gambling component to your game" "(Long silence) Y-You keep coming back to this. We follow all the rules and regulations"
Entropia is a game where you either invest and gamble in order to get yourself further into the game, or you suffer painfully and grind your way to being able to actually play the full of the game after countless days worth of time played. It's a game with gambling HEAVILY encouraged, almost required to properly play it.
"is your game gambling" "My name is Yoshikage Kira. I'm 33 years old. My house is in the northeast section of Morioh, where all the villas are, and I am not married. I work as an employee for the Kame Yu department stores, and I get home every day by 8 PM at the latest. I don't smoke, but I occasionally drink. I'm in bed by 11 PM, and make sure I get eight hours of sleep, no matter what. After having a glass of warm milk and doing about twenty minutes of stretches before going to bed, I usually have no problems sleeping until morning. Just like a baby, I wake up without any fatigue or stress in the morning. I was told there were no issues at my last check-up. I'm trying to explain that I'm a person who wishes to live a very quiet life. I take care not to trouble myself with any enemies, like winning and losing, that would cause me to lose sleep at night. That is how I deal with society, and I know that is what brings me happiness. Although, if I were to fight I wouldn't lose to anyone."
just to make you aware. When Never die bought ''the most expensive item virtaully'.. he worked for....Mindark LOL. When a Professor many years ago wrote anarticle about it Mindark threatened him.
This was absolutely insane. I learned so much and that interview was so awkward for the interviewee. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable about the industry but I had no idea this was a thing o.0
This was an excellent look into this game and a fine piece of journalism at the end. The interview was extremely well done and I hope we see more content like this in the future.
Why is this so hard to understand. He was showing that it is ridiculous to define gambling as "risking something for a potential reward", and that while the game could be considered gambling under that definition, so could taking your bike to work. He opts therefore to settle for the legal definition where he does not believe that his game falls under the gambling term.
Is it gambling? When you go to school, you’re taking a gamble that school will be helpful later in life But is Entropia gambling? *sorry I’ve got a business call we’ll have to postpone this interview*
This just makes me thinking of the song "Imaginary Places" by Busdriver. "Kids, if you really want to piss off your parents ; Buy real estate , In an imaginary place."
This seems like a lot of risk for people who get heavily into it financially. The example of their other game not working out is telling. And the lengths to which the developer is trying to evade any discussion of gambling in the interview is revealing. Basically, there's a lot of red flags. Interesting video. I enjoyed the old skool animations.
He totally and completely missed on that question. Too much alcohol will kill you but is enjoyable in moderation. Anything taken to extremes will likely cause issues. I do have some concerns about some of the allowed activities, such as the Entropia Fund investment pool. That's not permitted in certain countries and MA risks getting shut down if regulators get interested. Google BetOnSports and see what happened when they neglected to exclude punters from countries were online gambling was illegal at the time. Having any substantial amount of funds in EU carries multiple layers of risk. I.e. MA goes bankrupt or they get shut down by a regulator in a country with many players.
See the tf2 economy. Weird how it could be affected by not just normal economic factors like inflation but external problems like a bad update, declining players or bugs in trading.
Honestly I found it deeply fascinating. I feel like any competent PR department would have just given a blanket "We're not gambling, we swear" without agreeing to any sort of interview or _maybe_ an interview with someone whose only job was to evade the question and redirect to marketing platitudes. Instead this former CEO kinda knew he had to be evasive but wasn't quite charismatic or practiced enough to pull it off so he just comes off as slimy and dishonest and leaves the distinct impression that the game is absolutely gambling and he _knows_ it.
He’s defending his product. When and why doesn’t personal responsibility come into play? You play android games? You play pc games? All of which now have rng mechanics that you pay for. Do you classify an game with rng as gambling? The pc industry had this fight 10 -15 years ago when mmo’ first started introducing rng items for cash. This is no different than most other games except they condone cashing out. But you can cash out on any online game by selling an account. Take raid shadow legends as an example. You can buy a decent starter account know what your getting and it’s far cheaper than anything you’d buy from the developer. Not to say one wouldn’t then use the companies shop. So explain how this is slimy? He’s actually allowing the player to cash out. You spend $30 in raid for a double rng ( random number generated) mechanic. 1. You get a 6% chance at getting a lengendary with the best shard. Then it rolls again to see which hero you get which have unknown percentages attached to them. So that Valkyrie. Is probably like a .05 percent chance of getting. Random number but it’s probably not far off. So this guy is having an argument which was done 15 years ago with subscription based mmo’s introducing cash shops on top of the subscription. And at that they had rng elements. So whose slimey?
Hey! If you're new to People Make Games and finding us through the UA-cam homepage or some other recommendation, do take a look at our other stuff. We upload short gaming documentaries -- just like this one -- every few weeks. Thanks :)
the planet partners reminds me so much of the worlds in the oasis from ready player one
I saw this pop up, 'oh seems interesting'....'Oh shit...Quinns?!' needless to say i didnt even know you had a video game channel in addition SU&SD!
Yep, found this in my recommended. Very high quality video and good journalism for a game I've literally never heard of, I'm checking out your other works now :)
@@FrankFromAcc Used to make Cool Ghosts with Matt too, but I think that's now only Matt's thing?
game looks like garbage, and the developer is clearly garbage. Therefore, I will clearly not play it.
Everyone talking about all of the mental gymnastics in that interview but can we mention how he went full force with the questions and didn't hold back at all, I appreciated a lot.
Yeah, I noticed he wasn't letting the CEO off the hook at all. He didn't say it all at once, he was able to spread out his points over the questions as well.
I'm going to give props to both sides. It's VERY clear where both sides were coming from and the CEO didn't ditch five minutes after he started with the discussion of gambling. Most of these scum would be like "I no longer wish to be interviewed" And disconnect. So kudos all around...
Welcome to independent journalism. Mainstream journalism we wouldn't typically see this.
Right?? Like I just found this video after watching a few others and he not only tried to manipulate him with empathy(getting hurt after saying life’s a gambler) but also lying that it’s not a gambling game just because they hide the word gambling with partners and investors..
I thought the CEO was also quite reasonable. No one wins when the players go bankrupt. We have to focus on some self responsibility. How would someone who isn't an adult transfer money into the game anyways? Maybe I am old school, but I could only use credit cards to get anything when I was in my teens in the late 90s early 2000s.
"Is your game gambling?"
"Isn't everything a gamble when you think about it?"
"So your game is gambling too?"
"No."
All things are things but this thing is not a thing
Someones trying to stay in their grey lane so they dont have to pay proper tax and can continue to weasel
mrman991 clearly... I can see why he has to act that way, it’s practically his pay and job on the line if he missteps by completely admitting to a full gambling operation.
And I _SERIOUSLY_ don’t want to just get a person’s rando perspective on what is rng and how it can/can’t be okay. Good on him for getting an interview with a person about this _ehhhhhh(shady)_ strategy/platform.
I thought you were exaggerating, but now I've watched the video and that's actually how that conversation went. Amazing.
I honestly would have no problems with their business model if they were up front about "Yea our game ultimately is gambling because you can have profit or loss by playing it"
But nope, lots of inconsistent arguments that try to frame their game in a way that can skirt government regulations
Jesus, this developer interview is so tough to watch. You can really see the cogs turning in his head - "how do I not admit that this is gambling..?"
At least its for 18+, Fifa isnt and you dont even get a return XD
He probably can't say there's any chance involved for legal reasons
I get the impression he's pro-brexit too, which makes me think he's just a greesey scumbag who found a loophole to open a casino
For a second I thought he was trying to turn the interview into a Brexit debate.
@@pm5296 bloody EU, saying my casino is a gambling game.
At first I was like "this is cool, I bet he's going to softball like every other interviewer"
Then I was like "holy shit this madlad is the most savage fucking straight to the point and finding the truth guy I've ever seen"
I can't wait in 2 years to be mining virtual coal in vr for $2 a day
African country simulator?
We are closer than you think... You'll be at home driving a mining robot for $2 an hour.
*The future is now*
@@ambermoon1341 as is the past. This ever draining second is all we really have...
Look up some info on venezuelan gold miners in Old School Runescape. The world is wild.
My genuine, most sincere, and greatest respect for going as hard as you did in that developer interview. I could practically hear the whirring of gears as that robot attempted to resolve the inconsistencies of his own argument.
I thought David was going to shut down the interview at any moment. THAT is great reporting.
“Skill based” lol
It was pretty simple really, the rules around gambling are already defined so they designed the game to make it isn't considered gambling. Regulators claiming it's gambling if it feels like gambling is just because they want their CUT. They don't give a shit about gambling, they just want their damn taxes and regulation fees.
he's still a person! A blatantly habitual con person.
Gotta love that guy's roundabout way of saying "we only do what the law tells us and, so long as it's profitable, we couldn't care less about the morality or ethics of what we're doing. Oh, and if those laws ever start to turn, you know damn well we're going to use every trick in the lobbyist's handbook to ensure they don't change."
The way he kept hitting the phrase "skill-based game" made me realize that Entropia is designed to function like the carnival games along the midway at a fairground.
The kind of game that has had a reputation for being rigged against the player and bilking suckers for money for well over a century.
No shit, that's every company ever
@@eneco3965 just because every company does it doesn’t make it okay. it’s an immoral business practice that needs to be called out
TBF it's not like this is new. It's actually becoming more prevelant (and kinda terrifying with some large companies pushing NFTs). Also, NGL, he isn't wrong, just very obviously tactful. Everything in life is a gamble and far too much of it is glossed over or glamorized as an "investment". Gaming as a whole is basically telling you to gamble for your fun. Pay for this game or buy this Microtransaction and you "might" have a more enjoyable experience; you definitely won't get any money back.
If anything awful return setups and exploitative conditions like this just help to reveal the many many problems with capitalism. Which wouldn't be that bad (not like socialism doesn't have its many problems), if for whatever reason society felt the need to glamorize capitalism as an idea and ignore it's problems or even attack attempts to criticize it.
He is so cool for that
I liked the interview.
Q: "Is the game gambling?"
A: "Yesn't."
might as well said "perhaps" and ended the call
@@Boof_dQw4w9WgXcQ i think it should be "well no but actually yes"
It was funny but it was a pretty terrible interview with loaded questions. Not that he didnt deserve them they are very valid but if journalism is what he's going for he was waaaay too biased. Again, very fair points but this game is more interesting than just "the devs are exploitative assholes".
@@cyprus1005 "well yes, but actually yes"
Not gambling but scaming.
When I watch developers of these kinds of games talk, all I can hear is, “We’ve handed you a time-bomb, and it’s *your* fault if it goes off.”
Nice pfp
"Is your game gambling?"
David gulps with anxiety. His self-tanning lotion had stained the button-up he had on in the club the night before. He wishes he had gotten some sleep. He began to think he was ill prepared for the occasion... He took a deep breath and said, "Well, life's a gamble really...". There it was. He had done it! crisis averted.
I love how I paused right when this happened to see if anyone else was that stupid not to notice it and nobody was.
This is like a line from Disco Elysium
@@misero1444 My liege, this man is clearly lying with the purpose to make you lose the point.
@@misero1444 More like an NPC would say in Oblivion
internet historian type paragraph
"Is it gambling?"
"I can't admit that or we would be legally classed as gambling."
Yeah, that's the vibe I get. He 100% knows his game is a gambling game, but for legal reasons he cannot say that on the record or it puts his company on the hook.
@@myopiczeal nah cmon he aint dissonant hes just in denial lol
@@myopiczeal I agree with Anarchy - they know, he knows. But admitting it would open the floodgates to all sorts of regulations and banns in place for gambling - which are there for a good reason, mind you, and I very much disapprove of circumventing these regulations simply by claiming it isn't gambling. One can't be realy surprised, when taken the lack of actions by lawmakers and lawenforcements into account, that companies like EA tried to sell lootboxes as not being gambling. Why wouldn't they try it? Robox and Entropia have shown that you CAN get away with it if you are somewhat low-profile about it.
exactly! It is obvious how he chooses each word and how each sentence is assembled so that it cannot be misinterpreted (in a possible court trial)
is it a gambling game though? Itd be hard to answer immedietly, especially when theres legal weight behind your words.
its following a very narrow minded view to see an mmo as gambling.
the people *chose* to put in their own money. but at its core it's a skill based game - you can grind yourself up. the only difference here is players can earn real world money. and expect a return.
My spidey senses went crazy the instant the developers rep came on the screen. I never had a clearer sense that someone is lying in my life. He was tap dancing so hard. He absolutely knows EXACTLY what he's doing. Skirting the laws as close as he possibly can. "Responsible gaming" = responsible gambling.
The ethics of capitalism as work. All the corporation is able to say is "We don't have an ethical stance, and we have gone to the lengths to be ethical as required by law." and "Laws that regulate us are silly and should not be implemented."
You’re a genius. You should be a detective. I thought he was being genuine 🙄
Who said every time their behavior was fine but still got kicked out of 109?
Yup you could tell he just flat out couldn't admit it was gambling because it would destroy his gaming despite outright saying EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN IS GAMBLING!
So by that logic your game is gambling then right?
Uh.... shit... NOPE!
@@brandonsaffell4100 exactly why the gaming industry needs to be regulated
"Is your game truly a gambling game?"
"No, It's more like risking to earn money"
"So it's gambling then?"
"you keep coming back to that"
The thing is with the definition of the interviewer of gambling - the stock market would be considered gambling. The difference between investing and gambling is that investing has a way to mitigate losses for example if your property in this game loses value you can choose to sell at any point. With gambling you can win it all or lose it all there is no inbetween. The fact that the games developer doesn't try to compare his game to investing is weird to me because it would be really easy to argue for it.
@Telleva I think the key phrase there is “if it ever does”. You are essentially gambling on the stock eventually going up, just as you are on this game making money vice losing. The developer’s logic does sound scummy, but is nonetheless fairly sound. By the criteria provided, anything you wanted to consider gambling, would therefore be gambling simply because you consider it so.
@@BulborbStare If it's known that the company presents solid products with solid profits the stock will rise naturally from interest, for example Coca-Cola, Apple, Samsung, other big companies like that. Gambling in the literal sense of the word means a risky investment and there are stock on the market that are not risky at all, you can have an idea that Google, Apple, Samsung, X amount of companies FOR SURE won't go bankrupt in the near future much less tomorrow. If you put your money in entropia you are nearly guaranteed to loose it, just like in a casino.
@@tudoproductions you’re never “for sure” going to make money on the stock market. Stocks are just rich people gambling, just like this game is poor people gambling. I never said the game wasn’t gambling. Just that his logic makes some sort of sense wether you like it or not
@@Dom-cq8pw Man, I dunno how to tell you this but investing is just gambling that capitalism has primed you to believe is normal and healthy for anyone but the 1%. The stock market *is* gambling, pure and simple.
The developer being interviewed should get a gold medal for mental gymnastics because damn
Dodged that question faster then they dodged the law
Congratulations, you just witnessed how a seasoned conman behaves
I think he does have an actual point. Obviously he doesn't want to use the world gambling for legal reasons, but I think the case with EU is: You CAN just purely gamble like in a casino, of course, but that's not what the game IS in it's totality.
You can very very easily just play EU as a subscription MMO, pay 10, 25, 50 USD a month, whatever you can afford, and just go off hunting or mining on that budget. You are aware your money will run out, and it's not a reasonable expectation to "hit it big" or even end up at a zero sum.
It really is more like a choose your own adventure, subscription MMO, with the option to gamble, gamble big in fact if you want, but you don't have to.
It's a very difficult position to communicate effectively though, without attaching words to your company/game you don't want to be used against it, especially since a lot of people DO decide to gamble.
@@realandimaginedxyz You can literally say the same thing about slot machines. "You can very very easily just play the slots as a subscription. You know, pay $10, $25, $50 a month, whatever you can afford, and just play on that budget. You are aware of your money will run out, and it's not a reasonable expectation to quote hit it big quote or even end up at a zero sum."
"Do you consider Entropia a gambling game?"
"No, absolutely not, it's just *legal term extremely relevant to the gambling industry*"
"also I fell off a bike last week so if you could be a bit more empathetic that would be appreciated. Also we changed the minimum required age to 18 because we are totally not a gambling platform"
@@PeidosFTW the bike statement was not to garner empathy. it was to represent how life and all the decisions you make is a gamble
@@m335am dont care dudes still owns a gambling company
@@PeidosFTW so instead of using his own words against him you stoop to his level and misrepresent him, cause thats how you destroy an ideology or industry/business. Helpful idiots like you is why we are always on a downward spiral nowadays.
@@Pes._ I didn't misrepresent him, if you think he said that as some kind of metaphor then you're naive.
"Is there a gambling element to the game?"
"No! Life's a gamble. I fell off my bike."
🤣😂
Good comment, had to laugh, thank you!😂
"wow so original"
divertion and avoiding the question lmao
That is such a huge mis-characterization of his argument. What he meant is that there are essentially two definitions of what gambling can be and people are often conflating the two. Just like he decided to take his bike to work, thus risking a potential accident, and while it technically could be defined as "gambling your life" that does not mean that it is a negative thing or that it falls under the legal definition of gambling.
You know what else is a skill-based game?
Poker.
lmaooo
No
@@f1shyspace by the same legal definition, it is
but, is it possible to go into poker and grind yourself up slowly, and expect a return? no.
its clearly just a skill based game. and it would just be another stale mmo that someone can put money into. but the difference is, theres a return for your time and/or money spent.
so, yes, you could compare it to poker. but theres a fallacy mixed in there somewhere to call this gambling by that definition.
... its closer to a low paying job you can put money into to increase your salary XD
@@iceneko9170 Except, you cannot expect a return in this game, on average you will always lose money. If anything, it's possible to be good enough at poker that you actually can gain money, which is not the case here at all.
The entire reason this legal distinction exists, is because of the gambling industry. If your defense is gambling legislation, you're probably a gambling company.
"Is this gambling?"
*"3 weeks ago I broke my collar bone because I took the bike instead of an car so that was a gamble which also means it's a skill"*
You know, I thought that what you wrote was going to be an exaggeration of what the developer wrote but nope...
That’s what he says.
Right here.
15:38
@Nathan-DTS Doubt it, he wouldn't make as much money in politics.
@Nathan-DTS Given his performance here, he'd be of immense help... to the other side.
@Nathan-DTS Didn't he say he was from Sweden, or am I misremembering? I don't know what UK law says about foreign citizens taking public office, but I wouldn't count on the Tories to be the first party to test it. They allied with UKIP for a reason.
He literally can't legally say that it's gambling. Any admissions made can be used against him in court in case there is a big landmark case that changes the interpretation of the law on "online gambling".
I have to say that the subtle references to the UK gambling awareness slogans is amazing: "When the fun stops, stop", "Play responsably". It's kinda funny that the developper didn't pick up on those!
"We've been looking into lootboxes."
Of course you have, David, of course you have.
Worst thing about the loot boxes is that they can't be opened without buying keys for real money off the website. Almost everything else in game is for sale in the game... hmmmm....
*surprise mechanics
@@maevetoons okay EA
... wasn't the fact that you can't cash out whatever comes in a lootbox a big part of the reason it was decided it shouldn't be legally considered a form of gambling?
Wow, that guy did not seem ready to be asked any of the obvious questions. Fantastic preparation from Quinns on the questions though, you could tell he anticipated almost every answer and had followups. Nice job folks!
This was actually our second interview with MindArk, interestingly. We didn't use the first one as it was with someone from the marketing side of the business and he didn't feel comfortable answering many of Quinns' questions. Afterwards, they suggested we speak with the company's chairman and former-CEO, as he would be the best fit for the topics we wanted to discuss. So yeah, both sides had a bit of practice before that second conversation! -Chris
@@PeopleMakeGames the *second* interview after hearing the questions to the first person and he still wasn't expecting non-fluff questions? that's just crazy to me.
Completely applaud being able to shed light on what I’d bet most of the gaming community have not been exposed to.
@@PeopleMakeGames so... They knew at least of the questions coming into this and actually stayed for longer than the first 2 questions? I was expecting him to hang up. It's insane and so self-involved. Well done.
@@PeopleMakeGames why don't you ask questions directly to the community? in the forum and in discord we are all. it is more you should create a thread in our forum. ask your questions and then show our answers here. (you even got to interview the best player. his name is messi91. and you could also interview the worst and most complaining player. and do it openly to everyone. why not?)
This is great games journalism. Asking the actual hard hitting questions and putting the dev on the spot because this really is gambling
Because they aren't a giant publication with many employees to pay, that can't afford to lose a partnership with a company who might stop giving them exclusive interviews and free review copies of games
Think it quite rude, journalists outta be a bit more respectful. Guy kept asking the same question, "is your game gambling?" just phrased differently. Journalists like this just try to keep asking the same question until the interviewee gets mad enough to at least give them partially the answer that they were looking for perhaps by mistake. I think that doing that is just a really underhanded and scummy thing to do.
@@AnneWest_ how so? The man being interviewed is clearly lieing about the fact it is not journalism. By re phrasing the question there can be information he drops or be caught off guard. The journalist has every right to investigate and point out the lies this man is telling. What is he supposed to do? Give softball questions and as soon as he says "this is not gambling" move on? The questiond asked a lot are based around law and how it has changed. Imo this is great journalism that is about finding the truth, and bringing it to light. Even by the lack of response from all the different questions we the audience can see through the shadey bs. This isn't "scummy"
@@AnneWest_ This is precisely what professional interviews contain though? This game is gambling. the point is to get him to admit it is gambling by rephrasing the question until they slip up.
John Smith that’s my opinion
"Is your game a gambling game"
"You gamble everyday being alive and doing anything"
"Does that include playing your game"
"No" is probably the best thing I'll ever hear that infuriated me equally as much. Might as well ask the kid with his face covered in chocolate what happened to your chocolate bar.
By that logic the only time you're not gambling is when you play Entropia🤣
"Is Entropia Gambling?"
"So..this one time i broke my collarbone.."
If i was that guy i would rather be honest about it and say that yes, it is gambling, but many players enjoy their time in the game. Also at this point this game is less of a casino and more like a full economical system
@@tormodhag6824 the problem with him admitting that is that a loooot of governments will be coming for their ass to tax the shit out of it, thats why he will not say it
classic way to diverge attention from the question.
Political level answers...
@@Davineitor005 Yeah, I don't blame him honestly.. I'd rather have this game exist than never having heard of it. It's a cool ass concept however your stance on it is
The interview feels like he has a lawyer in the background telling him exactly what to say
No it doesnt
@@richthedick well im open to all opinions if you feel that way then i guess i cant change that but im saying he refuses to say its gambling and trys not to discredit the game by wording what he says super carefully as if a lawyer was in the background telling him what to say now that i explain it it is a little less funny but i hope you still get it
@@cpt.captain6721 😂
Welcome to the real world, people who are shady are always like this.
It was cringe. He sounded scared
- "Is your game gambling?"
- "I am legally obligated to say no"
I would've argued:
Magic the Gathering is a card game that sell packs of random cards with an active player market. Excluding the online version, the only way to play is to invest money into cards, enjoy the game [Magic the Gathering]. Then, once you're finished with the game, you sell the cards you've gathered to other players and make some to all your money back. Through this process, you've payed for an experience like any other game or consumable and at the end you're able to sell these cards to make some to all of your money back. Of course, there'll be players that over-invest and players that try to make a profit. However on our side of things, we are just wanting to make a great experience for people to enjoy.
@@littlemonztergaming8665 damn they shoulda hired you as the spokesperson lol. Ima call you if I ever get in legal trouble
@@littlemonztergaming8665 As a pretty hardcore MTG player I can tell you MTG is 100% gambling. Players spend hundreds of dollars on decks so they can win at their local game store and earn store credit. This is how they justify the expense because in a way they often make back more money(in store credit) than they spent in the first place. Of course the opposite can happen as well. I've personally been part of this cycle. I don't regret it cause I had fun and it was a great social experience. It's partly because I understand the risks that I feel this way. I might go back to playing once the Covid crisis is over.
Yeah he could't say anything different because he goes out of business.
@@rzq100 That is literally his point lol.
The interview really shows us how little this ceo thinks about the human beings that they prey upon using their game, it's really just amazing.
It said previous ceo not current
It's not about that. He's just being legally careful
There is a lot to this game that the guy who made this video doesn’t know. There is a way to play this game to maximize return and minimize loss, the skill system in the game, while raising the cost per shot etc also raises the return. There’s skills you train specifically to increase loot returns. As much as this game is gambling, at its very core and from the people who have played it since it released there is a LOT of knowledge of the game that if you possess you can play this game at least breaking even if not profitable.
@@joshuarickards2595 So it's like poker then? If you have higher skill you can influence the rng to be more favorable. Still sounds like gambling. You must understand, gambling has a pretty simple definition you put money in and hope based on some RNG that money comes out higher. And yes, by this definition even trading bitcoin is gambling (as has been voiced by many a seasoned investor)
@@LuanHimmlisch I don't think that defense holds here. David was given a very easy question about concern for player welfare. "If the value of items in the game crashed for reasons outside the control of the studio, would you be concerned for your most invested players." There is no legal reason I can think of to not say "Yes, I'd be concerned for everyone invested in the game, the players and the developers." David's answer clearly shows a complete lack of empathy on his part.
"So what do you do for a living?"
"I sell virtual mankinis"
The future is now
gnome child
He's living the dream
@Chem Lazy?? That is dedication and resolve to do all that work to gain currency in any kind. Game or not, it still require dedication and resolve and skills to go professional and invest your time and money on it.
It is not lazy anymore but just another form of work.
wOoooOaH! A huNDRED AND EIGHTY four!
As someone who worked in the gambling industry, you're absolutely spot on about "self exclusion". We were told catagorically that we were not allowed to approach someone who was a problem gambler and ask them to consider self exclusion. A gambler had to come to us and ask to self exclude and for how long.
During one staff training meeting, a description of someone who was a gambling addict was given to us, and the trainer jokingly referred to them as sounding "like our ideal customers, and they are! But these are gambling addicts" and went on to talk about Gamcare and the legislation in place to protect them and how we could get around it.
LOL , I gamble maybe once or twice a year with friends and often end up losing all my money (I bring only certain amount of money to gamble and wont go over that number ever) but I dont understand how people can gamble and lose their shit all the time yet still continue to do it.
@@scumnextdoor It's called addiction my dude
It's in the phrase man; gambling _addiction_
Ah, we gacha player quite friendly with that phrase too
Theres someone with insanely bad luck try over and over again till hit the number that f2p would realize how bad the rates are
I learn easily, I lose once, I'm not trying again lmao
Fantastic work.
Brb watching your video on minecraft again.
@@Chatrbuug and the one on fortnite
I was super impressed by how firm and persistent he was when asking the questions whilst also being polite. Amazing to watch.
@@wuddadid I was half expecting this to be some sort of promotion. Good to see this shady guy grilled.
Hey! Where have I seen you 👀
When he talks about talking to players that are spending too much its exactly what casinos tell you to tell gamblers when you get hired. Its very obvious that this is a gambling game.
oh man, what a blast from the past. I played this game maybe 15 years ago (!!) and I still remember mining the sweat off those ugly pig looking mobs in the starting zone, literally scraping the sweat off of a pig to sell. you really start at rock bottom in that game
edit: just saw that you still do that to this day, lol
"now that I've found a DeSinc comment on a random video, my depression is pretty much over"
also hello
que carajo haces aca
didnt expect you here
Omg it’s thesink
so you want to go off this video at 45 degrees and then backward accelerate bhop to another random video on the internet
16:00
"Everything has a gambling aspect in it"
"So is your game gambling"
"No theres no gambling here"
Thinks hes slick like obi wan these are not the droids your looking for... shit jedi mind tricks
It's like "Technically yes, but legally no". But by the way he was talking, it seems like that would change to "Legally yes" if the devs say that it is indeed gambling, so he has to avoid it really hard. I'm not certain but laws can be funny like that and he talks like that's the case.
"wow so original"
@@jbosssenpai3266 who are you quoting?
@@subrisubrika5652 the comment
"We do have lawyers" summarized this interview perfectly
I just came back to rewatch the masterful interview at the end of the video - one of the best business-focused interviews I've ever seen from games journalism.
its pc game industry biggest scam (employees of that company using super powered wpns). That david simonds giving and selling super items to his real life friends. lol lololololo. Glad i withdrew mannnyyy years ago. Gambling addiction :)
17:34 It is important to point out that although "Right, OK" in the rest of the world means "I understand what you are saying", in Britain it actually means "You are a lunatic and I am a polite, restrained person, who will move on from this regrettable moment".
"But it's skill-based"
"Right, but poker is skill-based and also gambling so could your game not be both?"
"No, it's skill-based"
"wow so original"
@@jbosssenpai3266 ?
@@lilyliao9521 i dont know man , that is almost a year ago xD
You could see the landmine explode in that developer's face with the question about self-exclusion. Oh Quinns, and the rest of the PMG team, you guys do have teeth, don't you! Love it!
I loved that part
absolutely, the very existence of self-exclusionary resources means it is gambling or at least addictive and harmful. But it can be tough to get that into words.
could you timestamp this? I can't find it
@@snowframe2995 18:00 😊
"It's not gambling but we changed the minimum age to 18."
Last year....
4 Months ago......
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Last year.... I guess no one should watch it or I guess it isn't relevant anyone, right Willem, you right Willem, you get'em, got'em, Goodem!
@@MainEventHeel r/ihadastroke
I'm surprised Quinns didn't ask about the reasoning for raising the age, possibly trying to get him into a corner about gambling.
@@taintedmyth0s636 I think just constantly asking him about is it gambling would have been annoying. Of course the CEO knows its gambling but its obviously not in his best interest to say it in a interview so asking about it 10 times just makes you sound like a douchebag too.
What I expected: "Hey guys! Check out this game review video that isn't explicitly and ad but I'm going to be very forgiving and charitable to the game!
What I got: *Hardcore investigative journalism*
Earned a subscriber for sure.
Nice to see actual games journalism given how often I’ve seen IGN give terrible games good scores.
why on earth did the dev agree to be basically cross examined lmao
1. It's a way to get their product and message out there, and even try to defend it against accusations of gambling, on someone else's dime. A marketing dream.
2. It wouldn't exactly look good if they refused to respond to this kind of question.
I have no clue, that slime ball shaped human should have realized no one would believe him when he tried to claim it isn't gambling.
This video will probably be used in court in the inevitable lawsuit or racketeering case.
Hubris comes before a fall
I'm surprised that they didn't require a signed agreement only to cover the agreed upon interview questions.
- "Is your game gambling?"
- "No, not at all"
- "But it's all about paying money for something and hoping to get a higher return"
- "No and let me tell you why. I fell off my bike and hurt my shoulder"
- "Okay, but this doesn't answer the question"
- "It does. If you buy a bar of chocolate and sell that bar of chocolate for the same money you've not bought or sold anything"
- "The players even say it's 100% gambling"
- "I've already told you I fell off my bike..."
- *face palm*
He can't legally say it's gambling because then he would admit that he's guilty and therefore would be open to legal actions. It's just a stupid question to ask.
Well he is kinda right tho. Sure, these assets are digital which isn't considered as real physical things in many laws but what he described makes sense. Buying land for the possibility of a higher return in a game is the same as in the real world as long as everyone agrees to the rules of the free market. Real estate markets can crash in real life too so where exactly is the difference? As far as I know there are no real casinos in the game so you can't directly gamble for money. The "gamble" part in the game is the same as in real life where people invest money in risky assets.
He said he fell off his back and broke his collar bone three weeks ago lmfaoo
@@no_alias_for_me Except real life investing has a net positive return on average. There is still risk, but if you diversify you will almost certainly come out ahead over time barring economic collapse. If the odds are stacked against you and the average result is net loss for players, that's not investing.
They say most successful wealthy people are actually quite risk averse.
This game sounds WORSE than gambling because not only are the odds stacked against you, but you have to put in a ton of work also. So now you have to pit the profits you probably won't make against your time and effort so you will probably lose there too.
Imagine if, in addition to putting down $5 to get into a blackjack game at a casino, you also had to mop the floor for an hour. They're basically charging players to maintain the casino. The smartest move in that situation is don't play blackjack at all and just make $0.02 an hour mopping their floors. LOL
@@no_alias_for_me You do realize real estate is still gambling
The interview was painful to listen to. He describes how the game is gambling in like 10 different ways, just to say “no it’s not gambling”
No, seems like he explained the difference between a gamble and gambling.
Flying in a plane is a gamble, playing the lottery is gambling
Driving to work is a gamble, cards with stakes is gambling.
There is a difference. Everything in life is a gamble, that doesn't mean it's gambling
@@wulfkriger3356 Yeah... but there's a difference between taking a risk getting in an aircraft, and buying a ticket to one of ten different aircraft, nine of which are *going to crash*.
@@wulfkriger3356 if you invest money in the game you risk losing or gaining more money. (gambling)
@@lilyliao9521 sounds nifty. I have a rule not to gamble digitally. Always rigged
@@Argusthecat but do I have a parachute/body suit?
You went HARD on that interview. I really appreciate that.
interrogation*
You really shouldn't appreciate being an asshole to a guy that obviously can't officially call his game a gambling game but still tried to imply that it is
@@aramikami it's not being an asshole if you're being lied to and you call out a lie. Like yeah, it makes the interviewee uncomfortable, but if I'm lying to your face and you call me out, who's the asshole?
Like holy SHIT, he went hard. He was completely right of course, but I couldn’t even watch, just had to listen.
Yes so hard.... He repeated his original question over and over for 10 minutes....
"Responsible Gaming" are you actually kidding me.
That is literally the motto for Gambling, "Responsible Gambling"
gambling is also sometimes called gaming too
@NihilisticEntropy The same can be said of pyramid schemes too.
@@somnorila9913 Only idiots play.
Responsibility mechanics
@NihilisticEntropy so idiots also win ?
Props to Quintin for asking the hard questions no matter how uncomfortable they could be.
To that dev's credit, he did stick it out. It would have been so easy to say "Fuck you, good bye"
But yeh, the obvious corporate speak reeks of EA.
@@XepptizZ Or, you know, any corporation in any industry. EA isn't worse than other corporations, they just have worse PR.
@@timothymclean yes, they all want money, but some actually do give a shit about how they get it. This guy and EA don't. I think Rockstar was also pivoting hard and tried to get children to complain to their government to not mess with lootboxes.
Say what you will, but there are companies that fought hard for lootboxes and companies that didn't give a shit about them. Lootboxes only take away from the qualities a game should have to be entertaining. Otherwise you didn't actually make a compelling game, you just went for no-effort-addiction mechanics.
you can really feel the Ace Attorney music kick in at 18:28
EXACTLY what I thought! Dude you're dead on
I didn't need to check the timecode to know what moment you were talking about, but I clicked it just to see that dude panicking again. Poor man did NOT expect to get grilled this hard 😂
unrelated but love your profile picture
“How do you keep people from paying to much money?”
“We have them contact us if they feel they spend to much”
Hmmm, kinda sounds like a gambling hotline????
"Responsible gaming" the executive says. Odd how thats a slogan you hear a lot in casino commercials.
Because it is. Its not others holding a gun to your head,, that you have to Sell yer moms house, is it ?
Teake responsibility for your own life back, and dont blame others.
Thats chiulish and weak. And if you think yu ARE weak, which is totally ok, then maybe look for help in a professional manner ? A psychatrist, or a siacial worker etc ?
Thats what i often experience : People are no ok with giving themselves a status, they have. People are weak, sometimes, and thus, need help. But that does not mean, others are responsible for the weakness and should "take care "or "act respnibly".
Noppe, thats not how life works. Never. Nowhere.
@@Sarimae23 Can you shut up lol no one cares
@@Sarimae23 true but if it was labeled as gambling, it would be way more regulated which it should be. They're just trying to stay in their own lawless little world where they can do what they want.
@@Sarimae23 The point is not that it shouldn't be allowed to operate, but rather that it should be regulated and advertised as the thing that it is.
Players should know that what they are getting into is gambling rather than some kind of investment. But that is not how it is being advertised.
@@Sarimae23 man i can tell you typed that with rage because of the spelling
Quinns: _asks difficult question_
The Dev: _deafening tongue-click of annoyance_
This weirds me out, I work as a bookie and a lot of the slogans and lines he fires out are line the gambling commission in the UK themselves use. Real shady.
now with the laws changing soon about gambling in games I'm pretty sure he is just trying to stay out of the radar and try to protect Entropia from completely shutting down.
The whole "Game Responsibly / Responsible Gaming" phrase he kept using kept reminding me of "Gamble Aware/ Responsible Gambling/ Gamble Responsibly" slogans haha
@@AxaFin Yeah, he's making a public statement so he has to be very careful.
"We contact people who spend too much."
So you check on them like a casino employee and (I hope) refer them to gambling addiction resources. How is the game itself not gambling?
I just commented that it would probably just be an ego boost to big spenders, giving them bragging rights
Gambling is not the only money spending addiction. For example you could get addicted to a P2W game or get addicted to donating to streamers online.
@@gyroninjamodder no one said it was the only one
@@jimsmith3715 The OP suggested that since you can get addicted to something that involves spending money like you can at a casino that the thing is also a casino.
"So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, is it probably a duck?"
"Pffft no, absolutely not! That's.. it's such a narrow-minded, uh, ridiculous, to me, statement."
Are you Patrick star? yes.
Is this your ID? yes.
I found this ID in this wallet so that makes this wallet yours. Makes sense to me.
So this is your wallet. "Pffft no, absolutely not! That's.. it's such a narrow-minded, uh, ridiculous, to me, statement."
@@michaelmclaughlin6124 holy shit that's gotta be one of the best insulting comparisons i've ever heard/read. my god, he's patrick.
narrow minded statement made by non-biologist people without the proper BASE SKILL to discern what kind of not-duck it might be
nah bro how can u say it feels like gambling. bruh people change feelings so fast
Then goes onto blame the EU for a statement from the House of Lords
hahha I actually "played" this game 10+ years ago. I remember collecting sweat and then I decided to "invest" $10 to buy a gun so I could hunt some monsters. I bought 2 guns for myself and my IRL friend, and soon realized that I wasn't making any progress in the game, losses were always bigger then gains. eventually stopped playing.
same here, people said you should get sweat to gain enough money for guns and ammo but i had 11k sweat and that wouldn't get me more than a few bullets
so i spend 10bucks, bought ammo,armor and a weapon and went hunting those tiny birds. Had a global of 37usd, spend all that on ammo and repairs and didn't find anything worth jack
next global i got was again after i spend money again
“Is this gambling”
“It’s skill based”
“But there is some gambling that still uses skill”
“Yea it’s skill based”
"wow so original"
Anyone who says “we follow the rules and regulations” when asked about the ethical concerns of their product is suspicious at best
Says anyone who's never made any money besides their minimum wage jobs.
@@TPkills Actually. No. When posed with the question "Is your game Gambling?" Answering "We follow the laws and regulations to ensure it isn't" Is breaking one of Grice's maxims. Specifically the Quantity one. No one asked for laws, and he mentioning laws makes it seem like they are threading carefully between those laws. What he is actually saying is "It is not, legally, in this country, gambling." That's why he then gets mad about gambling laws actually considering games.
@@Mofuwu well thats your opinion, every one has one 🤷♂️
@@TPkills yes but unlike you who made two fallacies in the process of expressing your disagreement, i actually explained mine, and dare i say- quite welll.
@@TPkills gotta agree with @Seba on this one, this game is gambling that doesn't necessarily make it bad, what is bad is their reluctance to call it one and how they sell It to players that can be harmful to them.
That CEO's entire lexicon in that interview sounded exactly like conversations at a gambling software studio I worked for. Every single response of his was based on removing focus from the specificity of the question and trying to reduce it to a personal responsibility that for some reason, the people at gambling companies are not also subject to. Gambling companies only profit if you lose more than you win - so in order to entice you in they need to obfuscate the nature of the game as much as possible. That means telling you to "Game Responsibly", like it's a reasonable assumption that playing too much of ANY game will result in you losing your goddamn house.
That guy's a fuckin slimeball.
If you play too much of any game you can lose your job, and then your house. Just saying.
when his response to if its gambling was to completely change subject talking about how he fell off his bike and broke his collarbone.. i was at a loss for words. i'd have hung up the call right there, he's not interested in a debate or honest conversation. anything he'd say is probably on his website already, vetted for assurance.
SMOKE AND DRINK RESPONSIBLY
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD yes but that's like saying drinking alcohol isn't any worse than any other drugs because if you consume too much of anything you'll also die. You're distracting the topic from your actual point, by making the subject of debate more broad and vague. We're not talking about playing any game, just gambling games. The comparison proves nothing.
@@PlaylistGeneral "We're not talking about playing any game, just gambling games" - "like it's a reasonable assumption that playing too much of ANY game will result in you losing your goddamn house"
15:10 it's amazing seeing a man lobsterize over the course of a minute as he justifies why his online gambling mmo isn't about gambling
Wow, I was watching on 1.25x and it's even more obvious.
TBF he at least had the balls to come on for an interview where he'd get asked these questions (and probably knew he would). Nowadays you could put nearly every other big company game developer on and ask them about Microtransactions or their in game economy or loot boxes and they'd answer the same way or (more likely) not at all.
the economy of this game reminds me of the economy during the housing bubble. assets (deeds) tied to shares of the revenue from selling overvalued houses? just like a CDO.
Oh shit, that's a terrifyingly good point. The rare intellegent youtube comment
@@MaxJ.ProfessionalLilGuy With an anime pfp too
Who would've thought
I must say I really enjoy the way PMG integrates their ads. You don't hide it but by being creative I'm much more inclined to sit through them. Well done to the whole team.
Thanks Glen. Patreon is, by far, our biggest source of income... but it's not quite enough to fund all three of us and the travel expenses we sometimes have. So those sponsorships end up being a massive help, but we do try our best not to be completely boring about it. -Chris
@@PeopleMakeGames Please use your skillshare income to give Quinn a bonus Jammie Dodger as reward for that interview.
"It's not gambling"
"But remember to game responsibly"
It's the labels they put on alcohol bottles
GAMER.
I have to tell ya a story, I wasn't around when you made this. I used to run a newspaper that sold for 0.05 ped. I figured out the original mining system and figured out how to tell where motherloads would be. I told a newspaper in game that gave where certain resources would be mainly located. And accepted donations of resources if someone hit it big. I kept those resources until they finally changed the mining system. Then of course, resources became more scarce, so I sold them high. And purchased the "stocks" in different aspects of the game. And simply make small amounts of cash each month with those stocks which lets me play without adding money into the game. I haven't really hit it big, but it lets me play for free.
A lot of trouble to go through just to play the game without spending money.
That's actually pretty cool. Kind of adds a whole new layer of depth to role-playing.
You should look into RuneScape's black market. :)
Or any other game that allows player trading and has rare items and currency. Whether they expressly allow it or not, people always buy and sell with real world money if there's a way to do it.
@@S2Tubes Probably just gaming black markets in general.
Rs black markets are against the rules though. At least osrs.
Jamflex harvesting money from rs3 whales is an entirely different thing though..
Osrs black markets and gambling is such an interesting topic. Some people are making tons of real money from scripts, gold, scams, bugs and schemes.
And now that i think about it, duel arena gamblers are a real thing.
@@Litepaw Jagex themselves are the biggest players in the black market, that is the secret...and they like to eliminate competition when they can.
@@fortheloveofnoise I wouldn’t say the company as a whole are, more like ex-employees and possibility existing ones too. Corruption must exist to some extent.
“Is the game gambling?”
“Its more like a lucky draw which takes skill to pull the lever”
anyone who has played the game knows it's basically a clicker MMO so 'skill' is used very loosely here.
advanced psychology and high-level mathematics or even mind reading is a skill, you might not have it, and you go against the odds all the time, but hey it's a skill that would make you better at this game.
Well he does have a point tho. Ppl dont consider the stock market a casino either even tho it is. Something being considered gambling or not seems more based on the aestetics then on wheter something is actually gambling.
tacob0 Something to do with gambling doesn’t HAVE to be about a casino. Of course the stock market isn’t a casino, just like how betting on a fortnite game doesn’t necessarily happen at a casino. There is more to investing than it being just a gamble, but if you don’t take that into mind and just put your money into some random stock without any thought, it would be purely a gamble.
@@mcsponge3899 There is more to poker to, But its still gambling. There is no stock that is guaranteed to do well no matter how much research you did. (research into a company is not nearly as important as buying low btw.) The only difference between the stock market and a casino is that the person gambling in the casino more often did a usefull job to make his money.
That was so uncomfortable watching the developer interview, but it's absolutely admirable how you pressed the issue. This is games Journalism I can get behind.
"there's no advantage of us as a company to have people getting them selves into trouble" after the player re-mortgaged their property to spend in your game.
they literally have a hall of fame for biggest spenders. theres no way they dont prey on susceptible players
A player that loses their house and job to the game is a player that can't keep feeding them money for the rest of their lives.
@@fieldrequired283 that implies they give a damn about long term viability. They'd have a fucking laugh if they could squeeze out every single penny from all their players' bank accounts tomorrow, and shut down the game a day later.
Capitalism is all about next quarter earnings, not sustainable models.
They'd just sing all the way to the bank and then start up their next grift if outright and explicit preying on their userbase was not likely to get them into hot water with the law.
Lmao yeah.. blame the game dev's for an adult's decision to re-mortgage his house.
Can't sympathize with someone doing something that stupid willingly knowingly. Hopefully the idiot uses that as a learning lesson and doesn't do it again
@@RX-hb3np exactly... how can people blame the devs for the adult persons decision to spend money in this game xDDDD lmao
i love the CEO's detract and deflect method when he was asked if there was a gambling element to his game. some nonsense about a cycling accident.
Gotta protect your cash coww
Yeah typical double glazing salesmen tactic, sidestepping the questions and not answering directly.
What he meant is that there are essentially two definitions of what gambling can be and people are often conflating the two. Just like he decided to take his bike to work, thus risking a potential accident, and while it technically could be defined as "gambling your life" that does not mean that it is a negative thing or that it falls under the legal definition of gambling.
@@trime547 i understood what he meant but i still believe he is trying to take away from the severity of the situation around his product. people can invest ungodly sums and lose that money at a 0.9 return or lower. any CEO defending his product would likely have a similar response and they have to make their money somehow which i respect but using a biking accident as an example to compare to a video game's market economy is like comparing pears to tomatoes.
Imagine your at a rich party and someone asks you how you got rich, and you respond with "I had a Mankini baded empire in an online game."
I've been at those kinds of parties, you'd be surprised how similar the conversations were. I met millionaires who'd made their money via baby swimming lessons, selling fruits and vegetables, and importing Coca Cola.
Oh man, this is game brings back childhood memories. I will say the community in Entropia was amazing - I still remember the in-game radio shows that were hosted, and the time I attended a big beach party headed by the radio host. I ended up putting like 15-20? bucks into the game as a kid and bought a vehicle. I partnered with some other guy who had a boat and we basically just drove people around like taxis for PEDs. Never played it long enough to make good cash off of it, but it was just fun to do. I think the people who really profit are those who find a side angle that the game didn't consider. Also something I recall about the stations and land etc. - sure, it sounds great that you buy an island and then just profit off of it, but there were also upkeep costs and like, rates? I think that you had to pay to the game. So at the end of the day money was always filtered back to the game itself.
Damn never expected you here
it is still amazing community except for the russian people...
@@lucatuka oh, so you think being xenophobic is something you can do in 2020?
^^^ That is a Russian you just offended lol
RIMMY
mans straight up replied to ‘is this a gambling game’ with ‘society is a gamble’ lmfao
"Is your game gambling?"
"Now yuo see, we live in a society"
"She isnt 13"
"I was just going to get a cupcake"
Same kinda vibes we got from good ol' EDP
That guy you interviewed seemed crooked af, he should be a politician. Also, what happens if a whole bunch of people cash out, could the company cope?
Also, great interview, it would have been easy to only loosely talk about, or, side step those issues.
The last thing that guy should be is a politian haha but I see where you're coming from.
If a whole bunch of people cash out, could the company cope?
Ask banks the same question lmao
Lot’s of people “cashing out” literally caused the Great Depression.
I think their is a thing if total game revenue goes under a certain amount they lock it. It's also not that easy most people who are far up there invest their money into land because the games currency plummets certain times of the year while land only gets more expensive. It can take years to find a buyer for a piece of land
Oh and if you don't play for a while they can take your land and auction it off. Forcing people to play a shitty Old game.
18:30 you really had him stumped, he didn't have an off-the-cuff deflection. Good job.
Really love the visual elements throughout this video, and the designs for each type of player. Great stuff.
Anni did such a fantastic job with the visuals on this one!
Drinking game: Take a shot every time MindArk guy says "skill based".
You would be dead after 10 mins
I mean if you think about it, drinking games are just skill games on how much you can drink, so it wouldn't be s drinking game, it would be a skilled based gsme
I am 100% sure he is repeating that phrase because it has some legal meaning. Makes my skin crawl.
@@joelambert7128 I think it's because gambling has two forms or something, luck based and skilled based. Like a chess match with a bet feature on who wins is technically gambling but you can make an educated guess at who will win, while luck based gambling is, well, complete luck. Not sure what the actual laws around it are though, if it's even a legal distinction. Might just a a PR term since this interview is public.
@@joelambert7128 the fact he has to keep repeating it makes it clear that no, it's not purely a skill based game, like chess or Call of Duty. It can at the same time be a gambling game-they're not mutually exclusive (poker being a good example) and the interviewee simply dodges the question with some X Factor sob story about breaking his collar bone, instead of just admitting it.
if it looks dead, and feels dead, its probably dead
This guy: "absolutely not"
possums be like this fool fell for it.
"Is Entropia a gambling game?"
"Everything is a gamble. I gambled taking my bike instead of a car and broke a bone."
"So Entropia has a gambling aspect?"
"No" *Closes tab*
“Is there a gambling element in your game?”
*“But my collarbone though...”*
poor guy broke his collarbone and noone cared :(
megaangryjoe lmfaoooo!!!
"You can't make money from playing Entropia, but you CAN make money from the players"
Ah, the old adage of "During the gold rush, you don't go digging for gold. You sell pickaxes"
Watching this and especially the interview, makes me glad I haven't actually committed to my urge to go back to this game.
One big thing I didn't know till now, my character, and therfore all the time and money I put into the game are gone. That would have hurt a lot more to find out while logging back in with the expectation of starting off where I was before.
I like how he chuckled when you pinned him down on the contradiction arising from helping players with their irresponsible (read: gambling) behavior, while at the same time claiming there is no significant gambling element to the game that goes beyond the inherent "gamble" that resides in regular life events or games.
He knew he couldn't answer that question so he just took a second to compose a response that would target the person behind the argument, going for the classic "you're really adamant about this" rebuttal. It's like he's conceding without formally saying "I concede, it's a game with strong gambling elements that makes a large portion of its revenue through deeply irresponsible player behavior." Well done People Make Games, really well done.
This interview would've been so much smoother if he just admitted the obvious but he probably can't because of legal issues surrounding the classification of a "gambling game". This company obviously designed a highly complex game with loads of ways to exploit people's sensitivity to gambling, so they're not just aware of these elements, they designed and implemented each and every one of them deliberately.
It would've been nice to hear what they truly think about their game and the gambling industry; you could've argued that every major game has strong gambling elements in their looting systems and they could've argued that, unlike other games, they give the player opportunities to obtain the "house edge" through investing, to not participate in the gamble, or to improve their ROI closer or even over 100% through skillful and strategic gameplay, unlike many other games. This would change the debate from "it's gambling and that's bad" vs. "it's not gambling" to "yeah it's gambling, but really, how bad is that, and how do we compare to other more standard-formula MMO games in the gaming industry?".
All in all, I don't think this company is particularly malevolent, but definitely has only one thing in mind and that's maximizing profits. This is a classic example of a case where more regulation is needed because virtually no company is going to cut its profits voluntarily for some philanthropic cause such as protecting people from their own irresponsible behavior. It's too bad, but it's hard to really sit here and contemplate about it while every company in the world works and operates on exactly the same primary principle, which is to maximize profits without breaking the law.
"Cash-based" MMO. You mean the stock market?
Not the same. There are fixed stocks, for the most part. With a randomized looter on a timer, there's an influx of goods at a regular rate. Which means it's more profitable to go looting yourself than it is to buy an item. So unless you want a very specific thing, you're not going to buy, lowering demand for selling.
Also, since the conversion rate is fixed, it's not really an investment to buy anything anyway. You're at a much higher risk of losing it than a bank, and it's not growing in value. It's directly linked to cash, so it's just cash.
If there was really a demand in value for the items, then the game company itself would be purchasing the items as an investment.
This is easier to get into than day trading for a lot of people. Which is prolly how they got this many players.
crypto 😎
@Filip Nikolic you're talking about maximum range positions. Even small investors can research and get on a mover with a good return.
@@VikingMuayThai yeah idk what hes talkin about, im a small investor and gained 5% in the last month, just gotta know your stuff
It's amazing that after working on a dairy farm all day shoveling manure, I can escape it all to start picking up turds on a fantasy game.
My favorite part was the Freudian slip when he said they have lawyers that help them determine what they can and can't do. He straight up said to your face that they go out of their way to tow the line of legality.
PMG: "But you have literal casinos in the game."
Reply: "No, they're called gambling hotspots."
PMG: "Sorry."
Ah, this p.o.s former CEO is exactly like I expected, I have no problems with games fueled by real money economies but this guy won't answer any simple questions because he KNOWS it's ethically unjustifiable, so he just keeps defaulting to the law.
"Do you see a problem with offering services to help players suffering from gambling problems while denying there is a gambling component to your game"
"(Long silence) Y-You keep coming back to this. We follow all the rules and regulations"
the minimum age is 18 ... when did that change in the 20+ years this game has been around? last year...ok.
Its legal talk, I'm sure he would come out and say its a casino if he wouldnt get attacked by governments
FroisonControl I understand your comment now hahaha
this is exactly the point, it is a gray area, and they are exploiting it, the sooner the laws get reviewed the better.
“We follow the rules we are given.”
“Do you think the rules are sufficient?”
“Absolutely not, they are ridiculous, but also don’t change them.”
Entropia is a game where you either invest and gamble in order to get yourself further into the game, or you suffer painfully and grind your way to being able to actually play the full of the game after countless days worth of time played.
It's a game with gambling HEAVILY encouraged, almost required to properly play it.
"is your game gambling"
"My name is Yoshikage Kira. I'm 33 years old. My house is in the northeast section of Morioh, where all the villas are, and I am not married. I work as an employee for the Kame Yu department stores, and I get home every day by 8 PM at the latest. I don't smoke, but I occasionally drink. I'm in bed by 11 PM, and make sure I get eight hours of sleep, no matter what. After having a glass of warm milk and doing about twenty minutes of stretches before going to bed, I usually have no problems sleeping until morning. Just like a baby, I wake up without any fatigue or stress in the morning. I was told there were no issues at my last check-up. I'm trying to explain that I'm a person who wishes to live a very quiet life. I take care not to trouble myself with any enemies, like winning and losing, that would cause me to lose sleep at night. That is how I deal with society, and I know that is what brings me happiness. Although, if I were to fight I wouldn't lose to anyone."
"Is your game gambling?"
"So i fell of my bike the other day"
just to make you aware. When Never die bought ''the most expensive item virtaully'.. he worked for....Mindark LOL. When a Professor many years ago wrote anarticle about it Mindark threatened him.
As is usually the case. "High Rollers" are just spending casino money back into the casino.
This was absolutely insane. I learned so much and that interview was so awkward for the interviewee. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable about the industry but I had no idea this was a thing o.0
my man giving the devs some hardball questions and not holding back, I absolutely love it
This was an excellent look into this game and a fine piece of journalism at the end. The interview was extremely well done and I hope we see more content like this in the future.
Thanks so much!
"is there gambling in your game?"
"everything in life is a gamble"
"so you're saying there is gambling in your game?"
"no"
alright then.
No joke, it is 100% coherent.
Why is this so hard to understand. He was showing that it is ridiculous to define gambling as "risking something for a potential reward", and that while the game could be considered gambling under that definition, so could taking your bike to work. He opts therefore to settle for the legal definition where he does not believe that his game falls under the gambling term.
@@musicgaines7170
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
@@trime547
Then he should have said it that way, instead of the drivel he spilled.
@@nullpoint3346 not his fault you cannot properly interpret what hes saying.
Is it gambling?
When you go to school, you’re taking a gamble that school will be helpful later in life
But is Entropia gambling?
*sorry I’ve got a business call we’ll have to postpone this interview*
We're already playing the most realistic MMO, it's called life.
Yeah that's the problem
Could use a graphics upgrade. It's been ages since they added a new colour.
The grinding is too hard and repetitive
And there is no option to log out while still being able to lock back in...
BOOMER ALERTTTTT jk jk
TierZoo covers all the latest updates.
This just makes me thinking of the song "Imaginary Places" by Busdriver.
"Kids, if you really want to piss off your parents
;
Buy real estate
, In an imaginary place."
what a throwback of a song
Damn love that song lol
hmm like adults buying land on the moon? lol that has happened
@@krm398 ...You just say the moon is an imaginary place?
Decentraland
This seems like a lot of risk for people who get heavily into it financially. The example of their other game not working out is telling. And the lengths to which the developer is trying to evade any discussion of gambling in the interview is revealing. Basically, there's a lot of red flags. Interesting video. I enjoyed the old skool animations.
Honestly very well animated
He totally and completely missed on that question. Too much alcohol will kill you but is enjoyable in moderation. Anything taken to extremes will likely cause issues. I do have some concerns about some of the allowed activities, such as the Entropia Fund investment pool. That's not permitted in certain countries and MA risks getting shut down if regulators get interested. Google BetOnSports and see what happened when they neglected to exclude punters from countries were online gambling was illegal at the time. Having any substantial amount of funds in EU carries multiple layers of risk. I.e. MA goes bankrupt or they get shut down by a regulator in a country with many players.
See the tf2 economy. Weird how it could be affected by not just normal economic factors like inflation but external problems like a bad update, declining players or bugs in trading.
He looks like he used to own a casino and then his son taught him what a computer was
That "developer" doesn't look like the kind of person who is using any ethics. He just wants a high income lifestyle to spend on vanity and ego.
That interview was painful. That man was the embodiment of all the synonyms of slimy.
Which one, the journalist or the interviewee? There is an argument for both.
Honestly I found it deeply fascinating. I feel like any competent PR department would have just given a blanket "We're not gambling, we swear" without agreeing to any sort of interview or _maybe_ an interview with someone whose only job was to evade the question and redirect to marketing platitudes.
Instead this former CEO kinda knew he had to be evasive but wasn't quite charismatic or practiced enough to pull it off so he just comes off as slimy and dishonest and leaves the distinct impression that the game is absolutely gambling and he _knows_ it.
S K I L L - B A S E D
Alif Affendi tfw there’s no skill to gambling 🎰
He’s defending his product. When and why doesn’t personal responsibility come into play? You play android games? You play pc games? All of which now have rng mechanics that you pay for. Do you classify an game with rng as gambling? The pc industry had this fight 10 -15 years ago when mmo’ first started introducing rng items for cash. This is no different than most other games except they condone cashing out. But you can cash out on any online game by selling an account. Take raid shadow legends as an example. You can buy a decent starter account know what your getting and it’s far cheaper than anything you’d buy from the developer. Not to say one wouldn’t then use the companies shop. So explain how this is slimy? He’s actually allowing the player to cash out. You spend $30 in raid for a double rng ( random number generated) mechanic. 1. You get a 6% chance at getting a lengendary with the best shard. Then it rolls again to see which hero you get which have unknown percentages attached to them. So that Valkyrie. Is probably like a .05 percent chance of getting. Random number but it’s probably not far off. So this guy is having an argument which was done 15 years ago with subscription based mmo’s introducing cash shops on top of the subscription. And at that they had rng elements. So whose slimey?