This is the best video on this. Every hunter safety class should show this video. The best statement, "just because it is legal does not mean it is ethical".
Thanks! It is good to see someone else beating the drum on the questionable ethics of long range hunting. I've addressed it in videos on my channel and as you say, there are those who say I just can't shoot that far. But I can and have. But I choose to do it on inanimate targets. To the cry of "well, I have "xyz" that helps me tell windage, etc", there is nothing out there that can tell you the wind currents between the hunter and a long range target. But you know all of that. I appreciate one of my Patrons for bringing this video to my attention. Thanks for the well stated video on the ethics of it all. The morality. And those words seem to be something that has been shelved. IMHO, of course. ;) Keep up the good work!
There has been a lot of problems with this in Alaska over the last decade with caribou. Some of the herds are getting to be fairly strong especially the Fortymile herd. Just due to the nature of caribou it is fairly common to get what can be a shot opportunity at 400+ yards and I have seen increasing numbers of long shots that result in bad hits while hunting. What is sickening to watch is the number that people don’t even attempt to retrieve or just go ahead and shoot at another animal. In my own experience out there I had to pass up the largest bull caribou I had ever seen hunting two years ago at just short of 200 yards because of heavy rain and the scope fogging almost instantly when I wiped it dry. I could have taken the shot but I couldn’t bring myself to shoot a silhouette even though I knew the animal would have dropped right there. I feel like I was rewarded for that honestly because the next year I got to take a wonderful bull at 3 yards and it has been great meat for my family. It is just sad to me because people don’t seem to care about and value the animals they hunt much anymore.
Desert Dog, all I can say is that I agree with everything that you say in this video. Failing to locate and recover wounded or dead animals is a disgrace. I have hunted extensively in the UK and to a much lesser extent in Africa. I have never shot at live quarry beyond 200 yards because I have never needed to. The ethical hunter knows when to decline a shot. Many thanks for your videos.
Thank you for calling out those gunwerx douchbags! Once upon a time I was a US Marine Corps Sniper, and I’ve shot tons of target at over 1000yds. I have never shot an animal over 200yds. I probably could, but I never would.
Agree 100% Devil Dog. While I wasn't a sniper, I qualified as rifle expert (with scores above 240/250 every time) every year I was in the Corps. I've since improved on my shooting with my hunting rifles due to a lot more practice than I could do in the Corps as an artillery officer. While I have no doubt I could hit an big game animal at 500 yards with a scoped rifle, I'd never attempt it. Too many chances for things I can't control going wrong and then having to deal with the consequences. It's always been my belief that a skilled hunter will get as close to the quarry as they can before attempting any shot. So my personal maximum range limit is 300 yards and I've never shot an animal further out than about 200 yards.
Here is why. You shoot an enemy to make him suffer and it doesn't matter if he dies right away because you want more of his helpers to come out so that you can kill more humans. As opposed to game animal that you want to die quickly. That's the ethics.
Congrats on this video, Sir! I am 100% with you. In Europe hunters are tought not to shoot much beyond 200 meters, because wind and other variables come into play and can likely make you miss. Alpine hunting (on chamois) may be an exception to this general rule. A risky topic this is, but someone has to take on it. Glad YOU did! Thumbs up! Best regards, K.
Absolutely agree. Very well done. That video was hard to watch. I don't hunt much but I shoot quite a bit of long range with precision target rifles because I live next to an amazing range that has hundreds of targets out to a mile (expensive fun) and there are many amazing long distance shooters who shoot matches there and evey peep I have talked to all have about a 400 yard hunting limit and most those guys can shoot triple that very consistently. I think dudes who shoot long range alot understand how many variables there really are and just how much wind can affect consistency to shoot at game past 300 meters. Btw: I think moral code is something many people are losing and that's why we're seeing what we are in these times.
Great video! I consistently shoot well beyond 1k yards (every other weekend) and when I go hunting, very rarely to I take a shot beyond 200 yards. What I enjoy about hunting is trying to get as close to the game as possible!
Totally agree, thanks for this. On an elk hunt in WY last year I saw exactly what you’re talking about. We had a herd of elk the guide ranged at 670 yds. The other hunter took the shot with the guide’s rifle (the scope on his rifle broke on the hunt) and wounded his elk. We tracked herd and the wounded elk for 5 miles before the blood trail stopped. The elk never fell behind the herd or showed signs of being fatally hit so the guide figured the wound wasn’t fatal but what a waste. I put the onus of this as much on the guide as the hunter and lost total respect for the guide. The hunter is my buddy who has taken a number of deer and elk over the years is an excellent shot and a true sportsman but he surprised me with this one.
🤠 Sadly, you are the only "hunting channel" that addresses "ethical hunting" on a regular basis! 😢 What does that tell you? 🤮 Apparently, "ethics" isn't all that important to the rest of these "hunters" or "company sponsors"! 😡 Keep up the "Good Work"!👍 I applaud you sir! 👏👏👏
I have addressed it often on my channel and was delighted when a Patron sent me the link to this video. Nice to see others are beating the same drum I have been for a # of years. We see this unethical "long range" hunting here in NW WY way too often, no thanks to the two companies near us who promote it heavily.
😁 Keep up the good work then, Mr. Real Gunsmith! 😊 We need more voices "Crying Out in the Wilderness", if we are to see any changes for the good! 🗣As I like to tell those I catch illegally driving on closed roads and trails, " I guess if you can drive where you want, then I guess that means I can shoot where I want? Get the message?"! 😂
The Real Gunsmith is the REAL DEAL! If you want to learn about rifles and hunting and ETHICS, Randy Selby knows his stuff! Plus he can make you the Best custom rifle on the market!!
🤔 Well, upon the principal of "ethics" we can agree!👍But then their is still one small problem...He has several videos out their where he talks about himself taking multiple elk at 600 and 700 yards! 😳 So, I hope he has REPENTED of his ways 😇 and I hope alot of people don't watch those videos? ☹ As for me, I once took a buck deer at 850 yards, but it was already wounded! 🤯 Their are alot of shots I "probably could make" and their are several in my younger years that I even surprized myself (like running shots on antelope - a much smaller target - right through the heart at along ways off, on the dead run), because I have rarely ever missed (but that still doesn't mean that all the kills were quick and their deaths pleasant - some due to using the wrong bullet for the job! 😪)! 🥳 But, experience has taught me much more respect for the animal and I see people every year doing things that defy understanding on what they are even thinking! 🤕 My focus has shifted from killing things to the future of the sport and creating better opportunities for hunters (handicapped, wounded war veterans, fatherless, and beginners needing to be taught right)! 😉 Most of my time (all of it last year, in fact) was helping others (like my mentally challenged/handicapped friend) and I didn't even carry a gun! 😯 For me, my gift is just being out their and sharing with others the knowledge that I've gained and the joy of the outdoors! 😁 That might even include acting as the camp cook, to skinning, butchering, and packing out the animal for them on my back! 🙂 Just being out their is enough for me - I don't need to kill or catch anything to have a good time! 😃 And, I live in some of the most Beautiful Country that God has ever created - and for that, I am grateful! 🤠
“Bragging like they’re the 2nd coming of Carlos Hathcock, but actually they’d shoot like Elmer Fudd.” 😯😬😆🤣🤣🤣🤪🤪🤪. You summed it up perfectly DD. Thank you for putting this together.
I'd have to argue that vertical grips, bipods, shooting rests and high BC hunting-bullets are not a bad thing, and should be embraced. They greatly increase the ability to make a good shot also at ethical ranges. That being said, I'm a European hunter. And where I come from, a shot beyond some 200-250m is generally considered borderline for ethical reasons. The basic question for judging ethical hunting distance, I was taught, was "can you reliably hit a beer coaster from this distance?". And at 300m that already requires sub-MOA shooting. (All the while even a slight crosswind can cause you to be off by multiple MOA) Love your message.
Appreciate this video. I've just never felt comfortable myself taking a shot at a deer over 300/350 yds. There's just to many things that can go wrong and cause you to wound the animal. As a hunter there's no worse feeling than knowing you hit an animal and not being able to recover it.
Desert Dog, this is one of your best videos. As someone who grew up in and hunted the eastern woodlands for most of my life I can’t imagine shooting at a game animal over 300 yards. When I choose to pull the trigger I want to be as certain as possible that I’m going to drop the animal as quickly as possible so I can begin all the work that comes after the shot. Just way too much can go wrong past 300 yards and even that seems long distance to me. I’d rather keep it 200 yards or less. You also answered a question I had thought of writing in to you regarding hunting out west. Expect for bird hunting in Kansas I’ve never hunted the west although I dream about it someday. I’ve heard and seen so many comments on how you can’t hunt the west without shooting those crazy distances. My gut feeling has always been that those people were wrong about that and you confirmed that for me.
@@Nightmarehc130 No I haven’t but the man who made this video has….a lot…and what did he say? Also Randy Newberg has said before that he rarely shoots an elk over 200 yards so what’s your point?
I grew up hunting in Wyoming and never took shots beyond 350 yds, even in open prarie on pronghorn. If you can't get within that range, it's not considered hunting, it's long range target practice. Those who disagree do not have any hunting skills.
@@jeffreypotter3254 Great comment. My last 3 speedgoats were under 200 yds! (In open country). Even on the prairie, you can still work the terrain. I have a buddy that shoots one every year with his bow.
I totally agree with you Desert Dog. There are too many guys out there that think they buy skill. They buy rifle and a scope with a Christmas Tree full of dots and that makes them a long range hunter and they couldn’t hit a barn past 200 yards. Last year I met a young guy that bought a really nice Christensen Arms rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a cheap Chinese scope full of dots. He though he had a 500 yard elk rifle. The scope was mounted so high the poor fella couldn’t keep his shots on the target at 200 yards. I see things like this all the time. Fred Eichler wrote an excellent article in this month Bugle magazine on this same subject. Keep up the good work.
You hit the nail square on the head DD. I share every single sentiment o. This one with you. Like I've said before. My experience with these wanna be heros at cabela's was exasperating. You shared and articulated on every point of this subject. I wish more people tuned in. I'll pass this along. .May the hunt gods reward you. 👍👍
This had to be said! I agree 100 percent. I live back east, you rarely shoot deer beyond 200 or 300 yards. Most woodland whitetail shots are well inside 100 yards to me getting in close is exciting in itself. That's where it's at. It's about being quiet, controlling your scent, controlling your movements being absolutely still. Mastering your adrenaline to make that perfect shot.
Personally, I restrict my long range shots to groundhogs or prairie dogs. With these, it’s usually a clean miss, or a kill. As for big game, the closer the better. First of all, it’s more exciting. Second, there’s just too many things that can go wrong with long range shots, as your video showed. Just my opinion.
Reminds me of old anecdote, about Deerstalking in Scotland: A Ghillie ( Scots Hunting Guide), when asked by a Newby English Hunter on his first Deer hunt in Scotland, "How close should I get to the Deer before taking the shot?" Reply from the Ghillie: "Stalk as close as ye can, then stalk 10 paces further!" Thus making sure of a clean, one shot, instant kill, no wounding, or spooked deer. All Ethical Hunting. DocAV
Thanks for making this and hope it's seen far and wide by all hunters. One thing you hinted at but didn't specifically say is this fascination by many with some sort of "sniper fantasy" mentality. Made all the more popular by everything from movies to advertising and even video games. To those people I say go ahead and stroke your fantasy but keep it on the target range.
All of that really exploded I think in the 2000s with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and everyone thought they were suddenly Navy Seal super operators and then took all that crap over to the hunting world.
This is one of the few channels where I can watch the videos in entirety. I appreciate the information presented. I am an older Canadian infantry veteran who was trained to shoot by one of our top 10 snipers. I have no issues aiming ang pulling a trigger, and I have never lost game. I have also used the 308/7.62x51 for almost 40 years. I know this cartridge well and have no hesitations to use it anywhere in North America. But, I would prefer to use my training to stalk and close in on game rather than taking chancy long distance shots to impress my hunting group. My hunting group used 270, 30-06 and 300WM, and they were skeptical of my 308 claiming it was too small. That changed after getting 1 shot kills on very large moose, every season. If you have doubts, don't pull the trigger to impress anyone. Don't succumb to peer pressure. Don't just spray and pray that you made a good shot. And finally don't just wound and animal and let it wander away. Take your time and make great shots. Stay safe and Happy shooting.
That footage you posted was maddening to watch. They fancy themselves as military snipers - even using the lingo ("send it", "copy", etc.). It just oozes pretentiousness. How long until this fad is so popular that it's dangerous for ethical hunters still trying get close. I'm not looking forward to someone walking in shots from a mile out while I'm still stalking into range on the same animal. We need to normalize the fact that 350 yards is already long range for shooting a living animal.
Thank you Sir! You're the only one calling out the unethical crap! I'm seeing this problem climbing here in South Africa. Ive lost friends because of it and yet I'll from others how they miss and wound game because they take shots at 800m plus
Love this video and couldn't agree more. I truly enjoy stalking game and getting as close as I can. I practice out to 300 yards, but most of my shots are around 100 yards. Thank you for a great video!!
Thanks Desert Dog for this video and for taking a stand. I think 90% of long range hunting is ego driven. Making quick humane kills with high percentage shots while using the proper equipment should be in our DNA as hunters. The best place for long range shooting is paper or steel targets at the gun range . Even ethical hunters who shoot big game at reasonable ranges should make sure they are well practiced and their rifle is as accurate as possible.
What a fine video you have narrated and produced on the ethics of long range hunting (wounding)…..I truly believe there are very few hunters wandering the game fields of North America who have the skills to shoot at game much past 400 or 500 yards, much less than retrieve them at that distance in the mountains and breaks of the west….. There are way to many factors involved in shooting at great distances to even consider it a viable option…. the wind, rifle cant, aerodynamic jump, spindrift, time of flight, shot angle, variable muzzle velocities in the box of cartridges, weather conditions, range estimation to the exact yard and most importantly your physical and mental condition…… There are just not many people who have the ability to preform under extreme pressure to precision tolerances to set these shots up in the game fields. A bipod or tripod is not the same shooting platform as a concrete bench at a target range….. And if wounding occurs do you have the physical condition to get to the shooting site rapidly, running downhill over timber blowdowns, across rock slides,crossing a stream at the bottom and then running up the mountain or break hill in order to finish the hunt? At a 15 to 30 % loss to wounding do you not think that there might not be another reason we are not seeing more big game every year, weather, disease, and wolf are not the only cause of declining game populations….At 67 my time in the field is limited and coming to an end, it is my hope that everyone reading this post can enjoy this pursuit and that it gives you the enjoyment and adventure that big game hunting has given me…. It is yours to care-for or destroy…….
Best commentary on this subject ever. My 2 biggest issues with taking 500+ yard shots on an animal: 1. Bullet energy has greatly fallen off by the time it reaches the animal. 2. Shot placement. Between wind/air current conditions and my own limitations to hold perfectly over the vitals of an animal at extreme distances, means I am just as likely to gut-shoot an animal, IF I can even hit it. From an ethics perspective, I don't believe extreme distance shooting is any better than using drones, helicopters etc.
Good video. Thank you. I'm an ex Cdn. soldier and shot in W. Germany on a NATO rifle team using the FNC1A1 in 7.62 NATO/308. We used only peep sights set at 200 meters and shot at those cardboard electronic soldier-targets that went down if you hit them. We shot out to 600 meters, estimating target distance and hold over. As a fairly qualified shooter, I would not shoot at anything over 200 yards, even with a scope. Two hundred yards is a long shot, to me. I think that Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett and Kit Carson might say 'Get closer.' Those hunter-shooters in that video were an embarrassment.
Wonderfully spoken as always. Your views are spot on. 👍👍. As disturbing as the long distance footage was I’m glad you chose to include it and speak honestly and hold true to your beliefs. No matter the butt hurt backlash it creates. 👍👍 very honourable.
My sentiment exactly .Get closer , use hunting skills. This new generation call themselves hunters. I question that myself. Thank you for your channel .
The longist shot i have made is about 150 yards for moose , but the best and the most memorable shots are as close as 7 and 11 yards. Those are the best one to remenber and tell the story for the youngsters .
Well thought out and well said. I read a forum post the other day where a guy said about hunting, “we have seen calibers become very limited due to magazines' internal length.”. He meant can’t seat the ultra high BC, heavy for caliber bullets over magazine length. The 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .243 Win, 7mm-08, 300 Wsm, etc. are now “very limited” because their magazines can’t fit these types of rounds? High BC bullets don’t even start realizing their advantages until after 500 yards. And often times older cartridges actually perform better at 450 yards or so and under. Don’t even get me started on long range bullets and their disadvantages for hunting. I certainly don’t feel “very limited” hunting with my 30-06, 7mm-08, or .243. Mostly because I don’t believe in shots over 350 yards. For me at least. And that greatly depends on what kind of rifle rest I can get for the shot.
I have this cartridge debate often with viewers. When I challenge them to look at what the 25-06 does within 400 yards compared to their 6.5 Creemoor, they are shocked.
Out here in the West the major issue with unsuccessful hunters is they did not spend enough time on preseason scouting to be familiar with the unit they are hunting in. Having a long range setup will not help you find elk or locate a mule deer buck. Only time scouting in the field will do that. I handload my own ammo and use a chronograph to know velocity, but I still limit myself to shots of no more than 350-400 yards. I will freely admit that I cannot produce the accuracy in the field that I can on the bench. I have no business taking 600 yard shots on deer and elk sized game.
Thanks for having the courage to stand up and say it. It’s not fair chase any longer when the animals can’t detect your presence. They literally anre defenseless in that scenario. Also, whether we know it or not, the hunting community is under scrutiny due to so much misinformation being put out by animal welfare activists and antis. We will never sway them to agree with hunting but the general public, which can be reached, deserves to know the truth about the degree to which the majority of hunters denounce unethical behaviors and support conservation. Long range shooting at animals reflects incredibly poorly on US. That is going to eventually impact our ability to hunt at all.
In March this year I was lucky enough to hunt again in Namibia. With my 375 H&H I shot a giraffe at 40 metres and other animals including a hartebeest at 240m. The latter shot I took because we had been hunting that old hartebeest for four days. He was wily and that was as close as we could get. I know the rifle and all my trophies were taken with one shot. What was important to me was being able to identify, age and kill cleanly each animal. I also wanted to hunt, to be in that animal's world and to use skill and patience to put myself in a position to be able to humanely despatch those animals. If I want to shoot long range targets I can do that on a range with no harm done to a living thing. If I want to hunt then I need to get close enough to be hunting, not taking pot shots. If you can't get within three hundred yards, then become a better hunter. Excellent video. I agree with everything you have said.
I’m fat, and out of shape. Yet I manage to stock under 300 yards. My MPBR is 260 yards. With a 129 gr. LRX in my 270 Win., I know at that range I can deliver 1,890 ft-lbs of energy at 2,570 ft/sec. Enough energy and velocity to expand the Barnes monolithic I use. This long range hunting, AND using match bullets marketed as hunting bullets, is total and complete bullshit.
HEY UNCLE DESERT DOG!!! 3rd time watching this and its funny what I missed the first two times making me like this video even better the 3rd time around. The question I have is how you deal with these guys in person.? Or even on YT. It’s hard for me not comment what I actually believe.
I politely speak my mind and let them know the risks of such long shots, and how much of the hunt their missing out on by not putting on a stalk. Unfortunately, the typical type of person who engages in this behavior are usually the type that doesn't care and will never have respect for wildlife. In person, they usually just ignore me, but behind a keyboard they are often confrontational. I'm sure you've met these "types".
I completely agree with you Desert Dog. I was a Highpower competitor for many years, and love long range target shooting. I am also a lifelong hunter, I don't mix the two, ever. Our beautiful game animals deserve the quickest, most humane dispatch possible, that is every hunters ultimate goal, no suffering. As opposed to every hunters worst nightmare, a wounded animal lost, or found too late and wasted needlessly. Hunting, and target shooting, are not the same.
Totally agree with the message of this video. I guess there is just more money in selling stuff for long range "hunting". High bc bullets, high power scopes with a zillion turrets, laser range finders that talk to the wind meter, fat bipods, etc. etc. in absurdum. When all you need is basically a 30-06 and a fixed 4x scope for most everything.
Since I started spot and stock elk hunting with a bow, my average rifle shot has gone from about 200 ish to 100 ish. Last elk was 37 yards with a bow. Last years deer was 83 with a 30.06
The most exciting hunting videos online are when a predator is in your face when the trigger is squeezed! Shooting at any game for bragging rights is unethical.. I don't care what experience you have. The idea is to take a shot that will cleanly kill the intended game animal. That being said.. each hunter should know their comfort zone. Mine is two hundred yards and in. I regularly practice at this range.. and I've seen game outside of my range.. yet chose to pass. Hunting is not about filling your tag on every trip. It's about making memories that will last a lifetime. Passing down experience to our younger generation is by far the most rewarding. These are my opinions.. thanks for sharing this brother!
Well done. Many of the LR and ELR hunters want their 'trophy' to be included in the Boone & Crockett club & scored; yet they don't want to abide by the B & C clubs own statement on fair chase that would exclude LR hunting!
There is at least one prominent influencer in the long range community openly calling the B&C fair chase principles total BS. The argument he makes is that because the animal can’t detect him he has a better opportunity to set up and make a good shot vs spooking something at 100 yards and having to make a low percentage offhand shot. There is merit to that argument. But only that one IMO.
You hit the nail on the head with me when you said bullet flight time could be 1 sec or more at 600 yards. Thats exactly why i dont do long range shooting, and thats what i teach new hunters i take out these principles. Same also with head shots, yes they can be done under certain circumstances, but most times no. Deer move so fast that one second they could be total miss or really bad shot that needs a follow up.Though yes there are places that require long shots like, plains, high mountain, large fields, ect. But for most hunting its between 5 feet and 200 yards. Most times when i see deer, hunting or im the off season is well under 100yards.
My first elk hunt we were stalking in close and had a 6x6 at 181 yards. I was ranging and getting as close as possible then all of the sudden another hunter shot from at least 600 yards away what seemed like across the canyon and missed. The elk started running up the mountain and he kept shooting. He shot at least 5 times and wounded the elk. He finally got it down but it was my first morning elk hunting and one I will never forget. That same year I harvested two animals after this experience and neither took a step. I love long range shooting and getting my setup perfected but when hunting will get as close as possible and only take further shots if conditions are right and I’m sure my bullet has more than enough energy. Thanks for sharing this video! Good luck this season.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Yeah it was sad to watch. Also much more wasted meat when you shoot it in the legs many times. That experience solidified how I want to pursue game.
Timely and well said. I saw 3 long range hunters take on the challenge of shooting a deer with a TC Hawken side lock muzzle loader with open sights. All 3 deer taken were stalked to within 50 yards or less. All three hunters said it was the most exhilarating hunt of their hunting career. Each deer taken were 1 shot kills. Its these type of hunts that leave lasting impressions on the mind and quality meat in the freezer.
As usual sir, right on target. Keep it up, as potential new hunters are listening. You and a few other 'voices in the wilderness' on the internet will ride out this 'bad fad', for what you say is true. And every real hunt proves it! Keep up the great content!
Straight to the point.l agree with you,if you drive a car at 160km/h feels okay,but at 200 not so comfortable and nervous.The same with hunting at long distance shooting at max.600meters.Who do you Impress?and who feels ashamed at failing your 1ste shot???
I actually think it's more of an overconfidence issue. These guys hit steel at the range all day, and falsely believe that it translates into hitting animals at long distances. Of course, that confidence diminishes when you gut shoot a buck with your 6th shot!
You are so right about hunting now. Way to many so called hunters are out there, shooting long distance and wounding animals. I agree with you, about 300 yards is max, for long range. I enjoy the stalk more then anything. Thank you for a great video and speaking the truth. The Real Gunsmith on You Tube, says the same thing. Plus it is bullet type, foot pounds of energy and shot placement that kills.
My hunting rifle is a Sako 300wm with the Varmint barrel which was great straight from the box but it got a better (heavier more ridged) stock and a decent optic and I've been punching repeat 28mm groups at 200m. I shoot metalic silhouette to 500m and occasionally shoot at paper to 1000 yards but I only hunt to 300m because that's where my confidence in a guaranteed head shot starts to waiver even though I know I can do better I never seem to trust myself further than that... I also shoot on some very thick property where I'll use a 45-70 out to around 100 yards and again I know I can accurately hit at more than twice that but I never try.
Many of us veteran hunters regularly enjoy shooting our hunting rifles out to 1,000 yards at the 1,000 yard shooting range. My go-to hunting rifles are Sako 85’s, LAW’s, Ruger #1, Rem 700’s, Weatherby’s and etc using standard hunting cartridges, using standard hunting scopes with maximum magnification no higher than 18x (mostly 8x). When I shoot any one of my hunting rifles at the 1,000 yard shooting range the sun is always up nicely and the target is bright. I’ve usually got fresh coffee next to me and a good dip of tobacco in my lip. As a result, I shoot very nice groups. However, when I hunt, my dope card will be maximum point blank range plus 100 to 200 yards at most. In practice I always seem to harvest animals at less than MPBR. Why do I limit myself you may ask? The answer is, “ethics” which are driven by a passion for the quarry. But, if passion for the quarry doesn’t meet your modern day techno sensibilities, then my best response to all of you technology driven, dreamscape, “long range hunting” aficionados is that you should first consider terminal bullet performance and then you should refer to a program which is offered by Applied Ballistics. It’s called, WEZ Analysis which is short for Weapon Employment Zone. Weapon Employment Zone Analysis requires that you HONESTLY input your actual standard deviations (SD’s) for the major variables which directly effect a bullets trajectory in a given hunting scenario. I don’t care what cartridge you’re shooting, if you get HONEST with your ability to judge/measure distance accurately (in low light, fog, mist, snow flurries, etc), with your ability to accurately judge wind speed and direction over the entire distance to target, with the actual SD of your ammunition, and etc, then the program will quickly point out that 600 yards is about the maximum distance you should shoot if you expect a 100% hit-rate over 1,000 simulated shots. Again, I don’t care what cartridge/bullet combination you’re shooting, you better get a 100% hit rate and WEZ will prove that 600 yards is basically the outer limit for any cartridge in hunting conditions. Try the program and be honest with yourself. It’s an eye-opener. So if, at a given distance, you can’t hit the vitals on your quarry 1,000 times over 1,000 shots, in all weather conditions, in all legal light conditions, with snot dripping from your nose, with socks wadded in your boots at your ankles, with the wind making your eyes tear up, with your belly growling and the Franklin stove calling your name, then you’re too far away.
Another aspect of this is being ignored as well. A person misses a shot and where is that bullet going? Hit a house? Car passing on a road you could not see where you were? Person walking other side of next tree line? Something to think about.
We are assuming the shooter follows the four firearm rules; including #4. Just because someone shoots long-distance doesn't mean they aren't safe with a firearm.
Bravo…… just watched a video on a guy talking about his 1700+ yard elk shot and how its ethical to him and for him. The old “just cuz you cant do it” idea permeated thru this video. I checked his load in my app and the flight time of the bullet took 3.5 seconds. Nooooooo control over what the animal does no matter how good you are!
My observation of one of the biggest lacks of honesty problems in hunting and shooting in general is that people generalize from their best performance. They once shot a .half minute group, so now every bullet that goes down the rifle barrel is inside a half minute group. And they shoot a lot of 3 shot groups. Etc.. If you are honest you keep a record of every shot you take. There is shoftware to do that. But I used to do it well before PCs. I included all causes of error, including ones like load development that are not repeatable, because you probably don't keep the bad loads. But then conditions are more ideal at the range. Learn to aggregate all sources of error, really learn how good you are, not what you did once. Then shoot within those limits. Also collect records. I remember a guy boasting that his varmint rifle shot 3/16" groups, back in the 80s when that was outside the light varmint existing world record. Of course he could have slung in a 3 shot group that size, but he believed that was his baseline. I watch a lot of barebow competitions. Shooters regularly will let a shot out that makes for a 7 inch group at at 20 yards in ideal conditions, indoors, with a light tournament bow. Now these guys are great, they shoot into a lot of donut holes. But what is their actual effective range, the best in the world. Marine snipers used to say with the 308 that it was head shots out to 500 meters, and body shots out to 800 meters. And wounding is OK, in some situations. The head shot target is what you need to kill a deer. The pie plate. And I am not a marine sniper. Accumulate reasonable expectations from expert performances under pressure. Not fluke, world's longest shooting. The Canadian sniper who pulled off a decisive shot at thousands of meters to set a "world record", in his next few shots missed a whole patrol. It scared them off, so mission accomplished. But which was the fluke?
I completely agree with everything you said. I also look at bow hunting in a somewhat negative light. I started bow hunting before I rifle hunted and hunted with some great bow hunters in that time. But the amount of wounded animals that I seen and heard of back at camp made me switch to rifle.
I’ve spent many times more days tracking wounded animals from archery season than rifle. In my mind, the problem with archery is the same as it is with long range hunting. Not too long ago, hunters had to estimate distances with their eyes. That left shots over 300 yards with a rifle and 40 yards with a bow to the top 1% of hunters. The rest knew that was above their ability. Emphasis was then put on being a better stalker because getting close was the only way to get the job done. Making a good shot at an ethical distance with a bow is more important than with a rifle, but the new class of bow hunters don’t seem to appreciate this. Now we have laser range finders and turrets on scopes and faster, flatter shooting bows. This adds a great deal of false confidence, so now shooters can buy their way to accuracy instead of practicing. They don’t feel like they need to join shooting clubs to force themselves to hone their skills all year before going on the hunt. People think they can go to a range, put 3 shots on a 30” steel target at 1000 yards from a prone position, and they’re instantly qualified to shoot animals at that same distance. Shots are getting longer every year, more animals are being wounded and not recovered at the same time non-native wolves are being released into our hunting grounds and decimating deer and elk populations, and higher numbers of hunters are hitting the woods every year. Then they complain that there’s less game to kill. Being successful on a hunt and filling your freezer used to be something to be proud of, but I’ve seen hunters shout other hunters down for killing a non-trophy class animal because it could have been a trophy for a real hunter next year. We’re getting dumber as a species.
I have to say that I like to take long range shots on animals. Most of my hunting videos are from long range hunting since it is easy to film them. However I also have to say that I find everything that you said completely correct 😅
I'M TRIGGERED!!! At no time in the video did I hear: Shooter Ready, Standby, Beep... I know more than one person who thinks that because they can ring a 4 foot square piece of steel at 1000 yards they can harvest an animal at three quarters that distance. i don't even think most of them even show up to camp with game bags. I'm sure most of your viewers will agree that your video is spot on!. Good Job!
I have always been a maximum point plank range hunter. On occasion I have misjudged the distance and shot low. When that happens I quit shooting and try to get closer if the animal is still around. If you hunt long enough you will eventually be involved in a bad hit situation no matter the range limits you or your fellow hunters. In those cases my philosophy has been that the range to the wounded animal goes out the door and dispatching the wounded game as quickly as possible to end its suffering is the highest priority.
Lol as someone who didn't grow in a hunting family, I was extremely confused hearing about shots on game at 600 to 1000 yards. Admittingly, just 100 yards is quite a distance when new, the thought of shooting at almost 1 mile sounded insane and super dangerous. Impressive at first sound, when you stop and think though, that's way too many variables to be confident in a kill.
Agree 100% As you stated the bullet energy at impact needs to be high enough to make an fast, ethical kill. A rule of thumb I have heard for Elk is 1500 ft/lbs at impact and also as you say the bullet must be capable of delivering that energy with enough penetration. Wish more hunters would stop listening to rifle and scope manufacturers and hunting shows would hire producers that respect the hunt not just chase TV ratings.
Hunters who don't stalk as closely as possible to an animal are missing out on the vast majority of the exhilaration of hunting. When I stalk an animal, all of my senses are set to high and I feel so damned alive. A couple of years ago, I spotted a small herd of pronghorn antelope at 500 yards (lasered); after an hour of stalking, I was able to close the distance to 261 yards (again, lasered). Then, using my sling as an aid (an underappreciated skill), I took my animal from my favorite shooting position, seated. BTW, my ethical shooting distance limit is 400 yards; if an animal is farther than that, and there is absolutely no way to get closer, the animal gets to live another day. YMMV.
That video is a disgrace to ethical hunting…. Now, all these young impressionable hunters think they can achieve the same result……. My opinion of Spoomer declined to new lows……….
The industry owns the gun media; much like Shylock had ownership of Antonio's flesh in the Merchant of Venice. If they don't comply, a pound of flesh will be exacted.
I handload regularly, practice throughout the year with numerous rifles, I want my rifles to be 400 yd. capable, I am not, haha, come hunting season, I buy a lic., then walk around the woods all day with my 40 yr. old pawn shop recurve bow hoping to spot a rabbit. When I return home I share all the photos of the salamander I saw with my family & friends. haha, love hunting. Pop cans fear me! Vancouver Island, BC, Have a great day, Mike.
Great content, Dog! "Long range hunting" is a misnomer. If you're shooting unwounded game at a 1000 yds, you're NOT hunting. And if you're shooting at a 1000 yds, why are you dressed head-to-toe in camouflage clothing? I was wondering where you got that footage. You know Gunworks would never have put that on their tv show. Thanks, DD!
As a guide in the '80's, I saw more "long range shooters" spray bullets all over the place and NEVER take the effort to check for wounded animals. Disgusting. Use a 30;/30 and get close. Its more fun, as well as more ethical.
Well said.. there should more respect towards the wildlife that we hunt before we create a problem that creates severe consequences not only to the hunting community but to the wildlife in general..
People out there bragging about shooting an elk or deer passed 500 yards-- and having to shoot the animal multiple times. The best and most common answer to why people shoot animals that far is because they're bored, having done it all at normal ranges before. It makes sense. For me, if I was like that, I'd go deeper down the primitive hunting style for the challenge-- black powder and bow hunting... I'd also add, it seems people started drifting to long range hunting when American Sniper and Lone Survivor came out. Everyone wants to be a sniper.
When i go to my 1000 yard range i usually start at 300 yards and it feels like a chip shot but 300 yards in hunting conditions is way different. This year i was hunting a 300 yard long bean field in a box blind. resting on the window sill , scanning the field i felt very stable and steady. Well then buck popped out at the far corner and i couldn't hold the crosshairs steady for the life of me. Luckily i had shooting sticks with me that i put under the stock to give me another point of contact and then i was able to make a perfect shot. Ive shot ground hogs at 400 yards laying prone with a bipod so a deer at 300 should have been cake but field positions change everything.
Well said Sir. The hunting industry is partly to blame for this. Movies, media and video games are other contributors to this rise in hunters living out some kind of sniper fantasy.
I agree 100% with you! unfortunately ethics are not important enough now days and egos and bragging is a common thing in our society. Ammo and gun makers sometimes they don’t help the situation by the they advertise their product and media is a way to put a different prospective without being able to see the reality of the circumstance. Keep up the good work….👍🏻👍🏻
Man man I’m voting you to be our next president!!🇺🇸🇺🇸 common let’s go I’m voting for you!! I agree with all the ethics you talk about let’s respect the animals the good lord has provided for us to have to provide for our family thank you for all your well explained points my friend 🙏👍
This is the best video on this. Every hunter safety class should show this video. The best statement, "just because it is legal does not mean it is ethical".
Thanks! It is good to see someone else beating the drum on the questionable ethics of long range hunting. I've addressed it in videos on my channel and as you say, there are those who say I just can't shoot that far. But I can and have. But I choose to do it on inanimate targets. To the cry of "well, I have "xyz" that helps me tell windage, etc", there is nothing out there that can tell you the wind currents between the hunter and a long range target. But you know all of that. I appreciate one of my Patrons for bringing this video to my attention.
Thanks for the well stated video on the ethics of it all. The morality. And those words seem to be something that has been shelved. IMHO, of course. ;)
Keep up the good work!
There has been a lot of problems with this in Alaska over the last decade with caribou. Some of the herds are getting to be fairly strong especially the Fortymile herd. Just due to the nature of caribou it is fairly common to get what can be a shot opportunity at 400+ yards and I have seen increasing numbers of long shots that result in bad hits while hunting. What is sickening to watch is the number that people don’t even attempt to retrieve or just go ahead and shoot at another animal. In my own experience out there I had to pass up the largest bull caribou I had ever seen hunting two years ago at just short of 200 yards because of heavy rain and the scope fogging almost instantly when I wiped it dry. I could have taken the shot but I couldn’t bring myself to shoot a silhouette even though I knew the animal would have dropped right there. I feel like I was rewarded for that honestly because the next year I got to take a wonderful bull at 3 yards and it has been great meat for my family. It is just sad to me because people don’t seem to care about and value the animals they hunt much anymore.
Thank you for the kind words, and for being a positive influence on the next generation of hunters.
Desert Dog, all I can say is that I agree with everything that you say in this video. Failing to locate and recover wounded or dead animals is a disgrace. I have hunted extensively in the UK and to a much lesser extent in Africa. I have never shot at live quarry beyond 200 yards because I have never needed to. The ethical hunter knows when to decline a shot. Many thanks for your videos.
Thank you for calling out those gunwerx douchbags! Once upon a time I was a US Marine Corps Sniper, and I’ve shot tons of target at over 1000yds. I have never shot an animal over 200yds. I probably could, but I never would.
Glad to see at least one other person thinks those gunwerks guys are douches.
Agree 100% Devil Dog. While I wasn't a sniper, I qualified as rifle expert (with scores above 240/250 every time) every year I was in the Corps. I've since improved on my shooting with my hunting rifles due to a lot more practice than I could do in the Corps as an artillery officer. While I have no doubt I could hit an big game animal at 500 yards with a scoped rifle, I'd never attempt it. Too many chances for things I can't control going wrong and then having to deal with the consequences. It's always been my belief that a skilled hunter will get as close to the quarry as they can before attempting any shot. So my personal maximum range limit is 300 yards and I've never shot an animal further out than about 200 yards.
Here is why. You shoot an enemy to make him suffer and it doesn't matter if he dies right away because you want more of his helpers to come out so that you can kill more humans. As opposed to game animal that you want to die quickly. That's the ethics.
Congrats on this video, Sir!
I am 100% with you. In Europe hunters are tought not to shoot much beyond 200 meters, because wind and other variables come into play and can likely make you miss. Alpine hunting (on chamois) may be an exception to this general rule.
A risky topic this is, but someone has to take on it. Glad YOU did! Thumbs up!
Best regards, K.
Absolutely agree. Very well done. That video was hard to watch. I don't hunt much but I shoot quite a bit of long range with precision target rifles because I live next to an amazing range that has hundreds of targets out to a mile (expensive fun) and there are many amazing long distance shooters who shoot matches there and evey peep I have talked to all have about a 400 yard hunting limit and most those guys can shoot triple that very consistently.
I think dudes who shoot long range alot understand how many variables there really are and just how much wind can affect consistency to shoot at game past 300 meters.
Btw: I think moral code is something many people are losing and that's why we're seeing what we are in these times.
“My RESPECT for the animal is greater than my EGO”! Well said and Thank You
Great video! I consistently shoot well beyond 1k yards (every other weekend) and when I go hunting, very rarely to I take a shot beyond 200 yards. What I enjoy about hunting is trying to get as close to the game as possible!
Totally agree, thanks for this. On an elk hunt in WY last year I saw exactly what you’re talking about. We had a herd of elk the guide ranged at 670 yds. The other hunter took the shot with the guide’s rifle (the scope on his rifle broke on the hunt) and wounded his elk. We tracked herd and the wounded elk for 5 miles before the blood trail stopped. The elk never fell behind the herd or showed signs of being fatally hit so the guide figured the wound wasn’t fatal but what a waste. I put the onus of this as much on the guide as the hunter and lost total respect for the guide. The hunter is my buddy who has taken a number of deer and elk over the years is an excellent shot and a true sportsman but he surprised me with this one.
Hopefully he learned from it. I've learned from many of my own mistakes.
"Long Range" being distances beyond fair chase is a really helpful addition to this issue! Great video.
🤠 Sadly, you are the only "hunting channel" that addresses "ethical hunting" on a regular basis! 😢 What does that tell you? 🤮 Apparently, "ethics" isn't all that important to the rest of these "hunters" or "company sponsors"! 😡 Keep up the "Good Work"!👍 I applaud you sir! 👏👏👏
I have addressed it often on my channel and was delighted when a Patron sent me the link to this video. Nice to see others are beating the same drum I have been for a # of years. We see this unethical "long range" hunting here in NW WY way too often, no thanks to the two companies near us who promote it heavily.
😁 Keep up the good work then, Mr. Real Gunsmith! 😊 We need more voices "Crying Out in the Wilderness", if we are to see any changes for the good! 🗣As I like to tell those I catch illegally driving on closed roads and trails, " I guess if you can drive where you want, then I guess that means I can shoot where I want? Get the message?"! 😂
@@TheRealGunsmith I was going to say the real gunsmith calls out the long range groupies.
The Real Gunsmith is the REAL DEAL! If you want to learn about rifles and hunting and ETHICS, Randy Selby knows his stuff! Plus he can make you the Best custom rifle on the market!!
🤔 Well, upon the principal of "ethics" we can agree!👍But then their is still one small problem...He has several videos out their where he talks about himself taking multiple elk at 600 and 700 yards! 😳 So, I hope he has REPENTED of his ways 😇 and I hope alot of people don't watch those videos? ☹ As for me, I once took a buck deer at 850 yards, but it was already wounded! 🤯 Their are alot of shots I "probably could make" and their are several in my younger years that I even surprized myself (like running shots on antelope - a much smaller target - right through the heart at along ways off, on the dead run), because I have rarely ever missed (but that still doesn't mean that all the kills were quick and their deaths pleasant - some due to using the wrong bullet for the job! 😪)! 🥳 But, experience has taught me much more respect for the animal and I see people every year doing things that defy understanding on what they are even thinking! 🤕 My focus has shifted from killing things to the future of the sport and creating better opportunities for hunters (handicapped, wounded war veterans, fatherless, and beginners needing to be taught right)! 😉 Most of my time (all of it last year, in fact) was helping others (like my mentally challenged/handicapped friend) and I didn't even carry a gun! 😯 For me, my gift is just being out their and sharing with others the knowledge that I've gained and the joy of the outdoors! 😁 That might even include acting as the camp cook, to skinning, butchering, and packing out the animal for them on my back! 🙂 Just being out their is enough for me - I don't need to kill or catch anything to have a good time! 😃 And, I live in some of the most Beautiful Country that God has ever created - and for that, I am grateful! 🤠
“Bragging like they’re the 2nd coming of Carlos Hathcock, but actually they’d shoot like Elmer Fudd.” 😯😬😆🤣🤣🤣🤪🤪🤪. You summed it up perfectly DD. Thank you for putting this together.
I'd have to argue that vertical grips, bipods, shooting rests and high BC hunting-bullets are not a bad thing, and should be embraced. They greatly increase the ability to make a good shot also at ethical ranges.
That being said, I'm a European hunter. And where I come from, a shot beyond some 200-250m is generally considered borderline for ethical reasons. The basic question for judging ethical hunting distance, I was taught, was "can you reliably hit a beer coaster from this distance?". And at 300m that already requires sub-MOA shooting. (All the while even a slight crosswind can cause you to be off by multiple MOA)
Love your message.
Appreciate this video. I've just never felt comfortable myself taking a shot at a deer over 300/350 yds. There's just to many things that can go wrong and cause you to wound the animal. As a hunter there's no worse feeling than knowing you hit an animal and not being able to recover it.
Desert Dog, this is one of your best videos. As someone who grew up in and hunted the eastern woodlands for most of my life I can’t imagine shooting at a game animal over 300 yards. When I choose to pull the trigger I want to be as certain as possible that I’m going to drop the animal as quickly as possible so I can begin all the work that comes after the shot. Just way too much can go wrong past 300 yards and even that seems long distance to me. I’d rather keep it 200 yards or less. You also answered a question I had thought of writing in to you regarding hunting out west. Expect for bird hunting in Kansas I’ve never hunted the west although I dream about it someday. I’ve heard and seen so many comments on how you can’t hunt the west without shooting those crazy distances. My gut feeling has always been that those people were wrong about that and you confirmed that for me.
@@Nightmarehc130 No I haven’t but the man who made this video has….a lot…and what did he say? Also Randy Newberg has said before that he rarely shoots an elk over 200 yards so what’s your point?
I grew up hunting in Wyoming and never took shots beyond 350 yds, even in open prarie on pronghorn. If you can't get within that range, it's not considered hunting, it's long range target practice. Those who disagree do not have any hunting skills.
@@jeffreypotter3254 Thanks for sharing your experience. I love Wyoming! I’d love to hunt pronghorn there sometime.
@@jeffreypotter3254 Great comment. My last 3 speedgoats were under 200 yds! (In open country). Even on the prairie, you can still work the terrain. I have a buddy that shoots one every year with his bow.
I totally agree with you Desert Dog. There are too many guys out there that think they buy skill. They buy rifle and a scope with a Christmas Tree full of dots and that makes them a long range hunter and they couldn’t hit a barn past 200 yards. Last year I met a young guy that bought a really nice Christensen Arms rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a cheap Chinese scope full of dots. He though he had a 500 yard elk rifle. The scope was mounted so high the poor fella couldn’t keep his shots on the target at 200 yards. I see things like this all the time. Fred Eichler wrote an excellent article in this month Bugle magazine on this same subject. Keep up the good work.
“Got him” you mean you missed 5 times and then still got a gut shot.
You hit the nail square on the head DD. I share every single sentiment o. This one with you. Like I've said before. My experience with these wanna be heros at cabela's was exasperating. You shared and articulated on every point of this subject. I wish more people tuned in. I'll pass this along. .May the hunt gods reward you. 👍👍
This had to be said! I agree 100 percent. I live back east, you rarely shoot deer beyond 200 or 300 yards. Most woodland whitetail shots are well inside 100 yards to me getting in close is exciting in itself. That's where it's at. It's about being quiet, controlling your scent, controlling your movements being absolutely still. Mastering your adrenaline to make that perfect shot.
Personally, I restrict my long range shots to groundhogs or prairie dogs. With these, it’s usually a clean miss, or a kill. As for big game, the closer the better. First of all, it’s more exciting. Second, there’s just too many things that can go wrong with long range shots, as your video showed. Just my opinion.
Reminds me of old anecdote, about Deerstalking in Scotland: A Ghillie ( Scots Hunting Guide), when asked by a
Newby English Hunter on his first Deer hunt in Scotland, "How close should I get to the Deer before taking the shot?"
Reply from the Ghillie: "Stalk as close as ye can, then stalk 10 paces further!"
Thus making sure of a clean, one shot, instant kill, no wounding, or spooked deer. All Ethical Hunting.
DocAV
Thanks for making this and hope it's seen far and wide by all hunters. One thing you hinted at but didn't specifically say is this fascination by many with some sort of "sniper fantasy" mentality. Made all the more popular by everything from movies to advertising and even video games. To those people I say go ahead and stroke your fantasy but keep it on the target range.
All of that really exploded I think in the 2000s with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and everyone thought they were suddenly Navy Seal super operators and then took all that crap over to the hunting world.
I'm addressing a question similar to this in the next hunt camp mail.
One of the best video on the subject! Thank you for posting it and hope it resonates with watchers.
This is one of the few channels where I can watch the videos in entirety. I appreciate the information presented. I am an older Canadian infantry veteran who was trained to shoot by one of our top 10 snipers. I have no issues aiming ang pulling a trigger, and I have never lost game. I have also used the 308/7.62x51 for almost 40 years. I know this cartridge well and have no hesitations to use it anywhere in North America. But, I would prefer to use my training to stalk and close in on game rather than taking chancy long distance shots to impress my hunting group. My hunting group used 270, 30-06 and 300WM, and they were skeptical of my 308 claiming it was too small. That changed after getting 1 shot kills on very large moose, every season. If you have doubts, don't pull the trigger to impress anyone. Don't succumb to peer pressure. Don't just spray and pray that you made a good shot. And finally don't just wound and animal and let it wander away. Take your time and make great shots. Stay safe and Happy shooting.
That footage you posted was maddening to watch. They fancy themselves as military snipers - even using the lingo ("send it", "copy", etc.). It just oozes pretentiousness. How long until this fad is so popular that it's dangerous for ethical hunters still trying get close. I'm not looking forward to someone walking in shots from a mile out while I'm still stalking into range on the same animal. We need to normalize the fact that 350 yards is already long range for shooting a living animal.
Thank you Sir! You're the only one calling out the unethical crap! I'm seeing this problem climbing here in South Africa. Ive lost friends because of it and yet I'll from others how they miss and wound game because they take shots at 800m plus
Love this video and couldn't agree more. I truly enjoy stalking game and getting as close as I can. I practice out to 300 yards, but most of my shots are around 100 yards. Thank you for a great video!!
Thanks Desert Dog for this video and for taking a stand. I think 90% of long range hunting is ego driven. Making quick humane kills with high percentage shots while using the proper equipment should be in our DNA as hunters. The best place for long range shooting is paper or steel targets at the gun range . Even ethical hunters who shoot big game at reasonable ranges should make sure they are well practiced and their rifle is as accurate as possible.
Yup…ego driven dick-measuring
What a fine video you have narrated and produced on the ethics of long range hunting (wounding)…..I truly believe there are very few hunters wandering the game fields of North America who have the skills to shoot at game much past 400 or 500 yards, much less than retrieve them at that distance in the mountains and breaks of the west….. There are way to many factors involved in shooting at great distances to even consider it a viable option…. the wind, rifle cant, aerodynamic jump, spindrift, time of flight, shot angle, variable muzzle velocities in the box of cartridges, weather conditions, range estimation to the exact yard and most importantly your physical and mental condition…… There are just not many people who have the ability to preform under extreme pressure to precision tolerances to set these shots up in the game fields. A bipod or tripod is not the same shooting platform as a concrete bench at a target range….. And if wounding occurs do you have the physical condition to get to the shooting site rapidly, running downhill over timber blowdowns, across rock slides,crossing a stream at the bottom and then running up the mountain or break hill in order to finish the hunt? At a 15 to 30 % loss to wounding do you not think that there might not be another reason we are not seeing more big game every year, weather, disease, and wolf are not the only cause of declining game populations….At 67 my time in the field is limited and coming to an end, it is my hope that everyone reading this post can enjoy this pursuit and that it gives you the enjoyment and adventure that big game hunting has given me…. It is yours to care-for or destroy…….
Agree, good presentation. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Best commentary on this subject ever.
My 2 biggest issues with taking 500+ yard shots on an animal: 1. Bullet energy has greatly fallen off by the time it reaches the animal. 2. Shot placement. Between wind/air current conditions and my own limitations to hold perfectly over the vitals of an animal at extreme distances, means I am just as likely to gut-shoot an animal, IF I can even hit it.
From an ethics perspective, I don't believe extreme distance shooting is any better than using drones, helicopters etc.
Good video. Thank you. I'm an ex Cdn. soldier and shot in W. Germany on a NATO rifle team using the FNC1A1 in 7.62 NATO/308. We used only peep sights set at 200 meters and shot at those cardboard electronic soldier-targets that went down if you hit them. We shot out to 600 meters, estimating target distance and hold over. As a fairly qualified shooter, I would not shoot at anything over 200 yards, even with a scope. Two hundred yards is a long shot, to me. I think that Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett and Kit Carson might say 'Get closer.' Those hunter-shooters in that video were an embarrassment.
Wonderfully spoken as always. Your views are spot on. 👍👍. As disturbing as the long distance footage was I’m glad you chose to include it and speak honestly and hold true to your beliefs. No matter the butt hurt backlash it creates. 👍👍 very honourable.
You covered it all. Good job.
Well said Desert Dog. I hope those hunters in the video get to actually watch your video and learn a thing or two.
Thank you for shedding light on this
My sentiment exactly .Get closer , use hunting skills. This new generation call themselves hunters. I question that myself. Thank you for your channel .
The longist shot i have made is about 150 yards for moose , but the best and the most memorable shots are as close as 7 and 11 yards. Those are the best one to remenber and tell the story for the youngsters .
Well thought out and well said. I read a forum post the other day where a guy said about hunting, “we have seen calibers become very limited due to magazines' internal length.”. He meant can’t seat the ultra high BC, heavy for caliber bullets over magazine length. The 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .243 Win, 7mm-08, 300 Wsm, etc. are now “very limited” because their magazines can’t fit these types of rounds? High BC bullets don’t even start realizing their advantages until after 500 yards. And often times older cartridges actually perform better at 450 yards or so and under. Don’t even get me started on long range bullets and their disadvantages for hunting. I certainly don’t feel “very limited” hunting with my 30-06, 7mm-08, or .243. Mostly because I don’t believe in shots over 350 yards. For me at least. And that greatly depends on what kind of rifle rest I can get for the shot.
I have this cartridge debate often with viewers. When I challenge them to look at what the 25-06 does within 400 yards compared to their 6.5 Creemoor, they are shocked.
Out here in the West the major issue with unsuccessful hunters is they did not spend enough time on preseason scouting to be familiar with the unit they are hunting in. Having a long range setup will not help you find elk or locate a mule deer buck. Only time scouting in the field will do that. I handload my own ammo and use a chronograph to know velocity, but I still limit myself to shots of no more than 350-400 yards. I will freely admit that I cannot produce the accuracy in the field that I can on the bench. I have no business taking 600 yard shots on deer and elk sized game.
Thanks for having the courage to stand up and say it. It’s not fair chase any longer when the animals can’t detect your presence. They literally anre defenseless in that scenario. Also, whether we know it or not, the hunting community is under scrutiny due to so much misinformation being put out by animal welfare activists and antis. We will never sway them to agree with hunting but the general public, which can be reached, deserves to know the truth about the degree to which the majority of hunters denounce unethical behaviors and support conservation. Long range shooting at animals reflects incredibly poorly on US. That is going to eventually impact our ability to hunt at all.
In March this year I was lucky enough to hunt again in Namibia. With my 375 H&H I shot a giraffe at 40 metres and other animals including a hartebeest at 240m. The latter shot I took because we had been hunting that old hartebeest for four days. He was wily and that was as close as we could get. I know the rifle and all my trophies were taken with one shot. What was important to me was being able to identify, age and kill cleanly each animal. I also wanted to hunt, to be in that animal's world and to use skill and patience to put myself in a position to be able to humanely despatch those animals. If I want to shoot long range targets I can do that on a range with no harm done to a living thing. If I want to hunt then I need to get close enough to be hunting, not taking pot shots. If you can't get within three hundred yards, then become a better hunter. Excellent video. I agree with everything you have said.
I’m fat, and out of shape. Yet I manage to stock under 300 yards. My MPBR is 260 yards. With a 129 gr. LRX in my 270 Win., I know at that range I can deliver 1,890 ft-lbs of energy at 2,570 ft/sec. Enough energy and velocity to expand the Barnes monolithic I use.
This long range hunting, AND using match bullets marketed as hunting bullets, is total and complete bullshit.
HEY UNCLE DESERT DOG!!!
3rd time watching this and its funny what I missed the first two times making me like this video even better the 3rd time around.
The question I have is how you deal with these guys in person.? Or even on YT. It’s hard for me not comment what I actually believe.
I politely speak my mind and let them know the risks of such long shots, and how much of the hunt their missing out on by not putting on a stalk. Unfortunately, the typical type of person who engages in this behavior are usually the type that doesn't care and will never have respect for wildlife. In person, they usually just ignore me, but behind a keyboard they are often confrontational. I'm sure you've met these "types".
Pre-watch prediction: this is going to be one of Desert Dogs best videos
I completely agree with you Desert Dog. I was a Highpower competitor for many years, and love long range target shooting. I am also a lifelong hunter, I don't mix the two, ever. Our beautiful game animals deserve the quickest, most humane dispatch possible, that is every hunters ultimate goal, no suffering. As opposed to every hunters worst nightmare, a wounded animal lost, or found too late and wasted needlessly. Hunting, and target shooting, are not the same.
Totally agree with the message of this video. I guess there is just more money in selling stuff for long range "hunting". High bc bullets, high power scopes with a zillion turrets, laser range finders that talk to the wind meter, fat bipods, etc. etc. in absurdum. When all you need is basically a 30-06 and a fixed 4x scope for most everything.
I happen to be in accord with your perspective. Great VDO.
Since I started spot and stock elk hunting with a bow, my average rifle shot has gone from about 200 ish to 100 ish.
Last elk was 37 yards with a bow. Last years deer was 83 with a 30.06
My last moose was at 50 yards. Talk about an adrenaline rush! He was glaring at me, threatening a charge.
@@craigschaefer8764 Staring down a bull moose that close is something you never forget.
Well Said, every hunter need to remember this lesson.
What a breath of fresh air. Man you are spot on.
The most exciting hunting videos online are when a predator is in your face when the trigger is squeezed!
Shooting at any game for bragging rights is unethical.. I don't care what experience you have. The idea is to take a shot that will cleanly kill the intended game animal.
That being said.. each hunter should know their comfort zone. Mine is two hundred yards and in. I regularly practice at this range.. and I've seen game outside of my range.. yet chose to pass. Hunting is not about filling your tag on every trip. It's about making memories that will last a lifetime. Passing down experience to our younger generation is by far the most rewarding.
These are my opinions.. thanks for sharing this brother!
Bravo my brother that was an excellent explanation and telling like it is, I admire your common sense.
Well done. Many of the LR and ELR hunters want their 'trophy' to be included in the Boone & Crockett club & scored; yet they don't want to abide by the B & C clubs own statement on fair chase that would exclude LR hunting!
There is at least one prominent influencer in the long range community openly calling the B&C fair chase principles total BS. The argument he makes is that because the animal can’t detect him he has a better opportunity to set up and make a good shot vs spooking something at 100 yards and having to make a low percentage offhand shot. There is merit to that argument. But only that one IMO.
You hit the nail on the head with me when you said bullet flight time could be 1 sec or more at 600 yards. Thats exactly why i dont do long range shooting, and thats what i teach new hunters i take out these principles. Same also with head shots, yes they can be done under certain circumstances, but most times no. Deer move so fast that one second they could be total miss or really bad shot that needs a follow up.Though yes there are places that require long shots like, plains, high mountain, large fields, ect. But for most hunting its between 5 feet and 200 yards. Most times when i see deer, hunting or im the off season is well under 100yards.
My first elk hunt we were stalking in close and had a 6x6 at 181 yards. I was ranging and getting as close as possible then all of the sudden another hunter shot from at least 600 yards away what seemed like across the canyon and missed. The elk started running up the mountain and he kept shooting. He shot at least 5 times and wounded the elk. He finally got it down but it was my first morning elk hunting and one I will never forget. That same year I harvested two animals after this experience and neither took a step. I love long range shooting and getting my setup perfected but when hunting will get as close as possible and only take further shots if conditions are right and I’m sure my bullet has more than enough energy. Thanks for sharing this video! Good luck this season.
That "Long-range" hunter probably told his buddies he bang-flopped it with one shot. That seems to be the usual routine.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Yeah it was sad to watch. Also much more wasted meat when you shoot it in the legs many times. That experience solidified how I want to pursue game.
Amen Brother. Well said.
Timely and well said. I saw 3 long range hunters take on the challenge of shooting a deer with a TC Hawken side lock muzzle loader with open sights. All 3 deer taken were stalked to within 50 yards or less. All three hunters said it was the most exhilarating hunt of their hunting career. Each deer taken were 1 shot kills. Its these type of hunts that leave lasting impressions on the mind and quality meat in the freezer.
As usual sir, right on target. Keep it up, as potential new hunters are listening. You and a few other 'voices in the wilderness' on the internet will ride out this 'bad fad', for what you say is true. And every real hunt proves it! Keep up the great content!
Thank you. I'll show this to anyone I know who wants to hunt with "sniper" setups.
This is a great video!. Thanks!
Straight to the point.l agree with you,if you drive a car at 160km/h feels okay,but at 200 not so comfortable and nervous.The same with hunting at long distance shooting at max.600meters.Who do you Impress?and who feels ashamed at failing your 1ste shot???
I actually think it's more of an overconfidence issue. These guys hit steel at the range all day, and falsely believe that it translates into hitting animals at long distances. Of course, that confidence diminishes when you gut shoot a buck with your 6th shot!
You are so right about hunting now. Way to many so called hunters are out there, shooting long distance and wounding animals. I agree with you, about 300 yards is max, for long range. I enjoy the stalk more then anything. Thank you for a great video and speaking the truth. The Real Gunsmith on You Tube, says the same thing. Plus it is bullet type, foot pounds of energy and shot placement that kills.
My hunting rifle is a Sako 300wm with the Varmint barrel which was great straight from the box but it got a better (heavier more ridged) stock and a decent optic and I've been punching repeat 28mm groups at 200m. I shoot metalic silhouette to 500m and occasionally shoot at paper to 1000 yards but I only hunt to 300m because that's where my confidence in a guaranteed head shot starts to waiver even though I know I can do better I never seem to trust myself further than that...
I also shoot on some very thick property where I'll use a 45-70 out to around 100 yards and again I know I can accurately hit at more than twice that but I never try.
Well said Dog of the Desert. Thank you for putting out the truth in a way that all should understand.
Awesome job exposing this more of us needs to speak out
Many of us veteran hunters regularly enjoy shooting our hunting rifles out to 1,000 yards at the 1,000 yard shooting range.
My go-to hunting rifles are Sako 85’s, LAW’s, Ruger #1, Rem 700’s, Weatherby’s and etc using standard hunting cartridges, using standard hunting scopes with maximum magnification no higher than 18x (mostly 8x).
When I shoot any one of my hunting rifles at the 1,000 yard shooting range the sun is always up nicely and the target is bright. I’ve usually got fresh coffee next to me and a good dip of tobacco in my lip. As a result, I shoot very nice groups.
However, when I hunt, my dope card will be maximum point blank range plus 100 to 200 yards at most. In practice I always seem to harvest animals at less than MPBR.
Why do I limit myself you may ask? The answer is, “ethics” which are driven by a passion for the quarry. But, if passion for the quarry doesn’t meet your modern day techno sensibilities, then my best response to all of you technology driven, dreamscape, “long range hunting” aficionados is that you should first consider terminal bullet performance and then you should refer to a program which is offered by Applied Ballistics. It’s called, WEZ Analysis which is short for Weapon Employment Zone.
Weapon Employment Zone Analysis requires that you HONESTLY input your actual standard deviations (SD’s) for the major variables which directly effect a bullets trajectory in a given hunting scenario. I don’t care what cartridge you’re shooting, if you get HONEST with your ability to judge/measure distance accurately (in low light, fog, mist, snow flurries, etc), with your ability to accurately judge wind speed and direction over the entire distance to target, with the actual SD of your ammunition, and etc, then the program will quickly point out that 600 yards is about the maximum distance you should shoot if you expect a 100% hit-rate over 1,000 simulated shots. Again, I don’t care what cartridge/bullet combination you’re shooting, you better get a 100% hit rate and WEZ will prove that 600 yards is basically the outer limit for any cartridge in hunting conditions.
Try the program and be honest with yourself. It’s an eye-opener.
So if, at a given distance, you can’t hit the vitals on your quarry 1,000 times over 1,000 shots, in all weather conditions, in all legal light conditions, with snot dripping from your nose, with socks wadded in your boots at your ankles, with the wind making your eyes tear up, with your belly growling and the Franklin stove calling your name, then you’re too far away.
Another aspect of this is being ignored as well. A person misses a shot and where is that bullet going? Hit a house? Car passing on a road you could not see where you were? Person walking other side of next tree line? Something to think about.
We are assuming the shooter follows the four firearm rules; including #4. Just because someone shoots long-distance doesn't mean they aren't safe with a firearm.
Bravo…… just watched a video on a guy talking about his 1700+ yard elk shot and how its ethical to him and for him. The old “just cuz you cant do it” idea permeated thru this video. I checked his load in my app and the flight time of the bullet took 3.5 seconds. Nooooooo control over what the animal does no matter how good you are!
Ego over ethics. It's amazing how far people go to justify their actions.
I totally agree with you! Great video!
A much needed video. Thank you!
My observation of one of the biggest lacks of honesty problems in hunting and shooting in general is that people generalize from their best performance. They once shot a .half minute group, so now every bullet that goes down the rifle barrel is inside a half minute group. And they shoot a lot of 3 shot groups. Etc.. If you are honest you keep a record of every shot you take. There is shoftware to do that. But I used to do it well before PCs. I included all causes of error, including ones like load development that are not repeatable, because you probably don't keep the bad loads. But then conditions are more ideal at the range. Learn to aggregate all sources of error, really learn how good you are, not what you did once. Then shoot within those limits.
Also collect records. I remember a guy boasting that his varmint rifle shot 3/16" groups, back in the 80s when that was outside the light varmint existing world record. Of course he could have slung in a 3 shot group that size, but he believed that was his baseline.
I watch a lot of barebow competitions. Shooters regularly will let a shot out that makes for a 7 inch group at at 20 yards in ideal conditions, indoors, with a light tournament bow. Now these guys are great, they shoot into a lot of donut holes. But what is their actual effective range, the best in the world.
Marine snipers used to say with the 308 that it was head shots out to 500 meters, and body shots out to 800 meters. And wounding is OK, in some situations. The head shot target is what you need to kill a deer. The pie plate. And I am not a marine sniper.
Accumulate reasonable expectations from expert performances under pressure. Not fluke, world's longest shooting. The Canadian sniper who pulled off a decisive shot at thousands of meters to set a "world record", in his next few shots missed a whole patrol. It scared them off, so mission accomplished. But which was the fluke?
I completely agree with everything you said. I also look at bow hunting in a somewhat negative light. I started bow hunting before I rifle hunted and hunted with some great bow hunters in that time. But the amount of wounded animals that I seen and heard of back at camp made me switch to rifle.
Although I don't necessarily agree with it; this is why most European nations outlawed bow hunting.
I’ve spent many times more days tracking wounded animals from archery season than rifle. In my mind, the problem with archery is the same as it is with long range hunting. Not too long ago, hunters had to estimate distances with their eyes. That left shots over 300 yards with a rifle and 40 yards with a bow to the top 1% of hunters. The rest knew that was above their ability. Emphasis was then put on being a better stalker because getting close was the only way to get the job done. Making a good shot at an ethical distance with a bow is more important than with a rifle, but the new class of bow hunters don’t seem to appreciate this.
Now we have laser range finders and turrets on scopes and faster, flatter shooting bows. This adds a great deal of false confidence, so now shooters can buy their way to accuracy instead of practicing. They don’t feel like they need to join shooting clubs to force themselves to hone their skills all year before going on the hunt. People think they can go to a range, put 3 shots on a 30” steel target at 1000 yards from a prone position, and they’re instantly qualified to shoot animals at that same distance. Shots are getting longer every year, more animals are being wounded and not recovered at the same time non-native wolves are being released into our hunting grounds and decimating deer and elk populations, and higher numbers of hunters are hitting the woods every year. Then they complain that there’s less game to kill. Being successful on a hunt and filling your freezer used to be something to be proud of, but I’ve seen hunters shout other hunters down for killing a non-trophy class animal because it could have been a trophy for a real hunter next year. We’re getting dumber as a species.
I’m not a hunter. I’m a range shooter and plinker and I know that 300 yards is far. This was an excellent and necessary video!
Long distance shots are fantastic, on paper and steel!
Totally agree with your points!
I have to say that I like to take long range shots on animals. Most of my hunting videos are from long range hunting since it is easy to film them. However I also have to say that I find everything that you said completely correct 😅
Excellent video, well argued and exactly my own view. Good on you!
I'M TRIGGERED!!! At no time in the video did I hear: Shooter Ready, Standby, Beep... I know more than one person who thinks that because they can ring a 4 foot square piece of steel at 1000 yards they can harvest an animal at three quarters that distance. i don't even think most of them even show up to camp with game bags. I'm sure most of your viewers will agree that your video is spot on!. Good Job!
You’re a beacon of truth!
Your views on this topic are the views of any true hunter . Thanks for calling these a-holes out.
I have always been a maximum point plank range hunter. On occasion I have misjudged the distance and shot low. When that happens I quit shooting and try to get closer if the animal is still around. If you hunt long enough you will eventually be involved in a bad hit situation no matter the range limits you or your fellow hunters. In those cases my philosophy has been that the range to the wounded animal goes out the door and dispatching the wounded game as quickly as possible to end its suffering is the highest priority.
Lol as someone who didn't grow in a hunting family, I was extremely confused hearing about shots on game at 600 to 1000 yards. Admittingly, just 100 yards is quite a distance when new, the thought of shooting at almost 1 mile sounded insane and super dangerous. Impressive at first sound, when you stop and think though, that's way too many variables to be confident in a kill.
Great video! The hunting world can learn alot from this
Agree 100% As you stated the bullet energy at impact needs to be high enough to make an fast, ethical kill. A rule of thumb I have heard for Elk is 1500 ft/lbs at impact and also as you say the bullet must be capable of delivering that energy with enough penetration. Wish more hunters would stop listening to rifle and scope manufacturers and hunting shows would hire producers that respect the hunt not just chase TV ratings.
Another fantastic DD video 👍👍👍🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
Informative. Thank You Very Much.
Hunters who don't stalk as closely as possible to an animal are missing out on the vast majority of the exhilaration of hunting. When I stalk an animal, all of my senses are set to high and I feel so damned alive. A couple of years ago, I spotted a small herd of pronghorn antelope at 500 yards (lasered); after an hour of stalking, I was able to close the distance to 261 yards (again, lasered). Then, using my sling as an aid (an underappreciated skill), I took my animal from my favorite shooting position, seated.
BTW, my ethical shooting distance limit is 400 yards; if an animal is farther than that, and there is absolutely no way to get closer, the animal gets to live another day. YMMV.
I couldn’t believe it when Ron Spoomer posted that video a few weeks ago about shooting a deer at 777 yards.
That video is a disgrace to ethical hunting…. Now, all these young impressionable hunters think they can achieve the same result……. My opinion of Spoomer declined to new lows……….
I saw that garbage too. I expressed what I thought. Our majestic animals aren't target practice so you can go on youtube and brag about it.
The industry owns the gun media; much like Shylock had ownership of Antonio's flesh in the Merchant of Venice. If they don't comply, a pound of flesh will be exacted.
Yes I got the impression that he was at some industry sponsored hunt and they pressured him to take the shot so he did. Pathetic.
My 35 whelen is a 300 yard cartridge imo . It will easily handle elk out to 500 but I won’t shoot past around 300.
I handload regularly, practice throughout the year with numerous rifles, I want my rifles to be 400 yd. capable, I am not, haha, come hunting season, I buy a lic., then walk around the woods all day with my 40 yr. old pawn shop recurve bow hoping to spot a rabbit. When I return home I share all the photos of the salamander I saw with my family & friends. haha, love hunting. Pop cans fear me! Vancouver Island, BC, Have a great day, Mike.
Great content, Dog! "Long range hunting" is a misnomer. If you're shooting unwounded game at a 1000 yds, you're NOT hunting. And if you're shooting at a 1000 yds, why are you dressed head-to-toe in camouflage clothing? I was wondering where you got that footage. You know Gunworks would never have put that on their tv show.
Thanks, DD!
These guys always seem to be decked out in Kuiu camo to take shots at over 3 times the distance an animal can see them.
As a guide in the '80's, I saw more "long range shooters" spray bullets all over the place and NEVER take the effort to check for wounded animals. Disgusting. Use a 30;/30 and get close. Its more fun, as well as more ethical.
love the video and like so many on here repeat …. it needed to be said!
Well said.. there should more respect towards the wildlife that we hunt before we create a problem that creates severe consequences not only to the hunting community but to the wildlife in general..
People out there bragging about shooting an elk or deer passed 500 yards-- and having to shoot the animal multiple times. The best and most common answer to why people shoot animals that far is because they're bored, having done it all at normal ranges before. It makes sense. For me, if I was like that, I'd go deeper down the primitive hunting style for the challenge-- black powder and bow hunting... I'd also add, it seems people started drifting to long range hunting when American Sniper and Lone Survivor came out. Everyone wants to be a sniper.
When i go to my 1000 yard range i usually start at 300 yards and it feels like a chip shot but 300 yards in hunting conditions is way different. This year i was hunting a 300 yard long bean field in a box blind. resting on the window sill , scanning the field i felt very stable and steady. Well then buck popped out at the far corner and i couldn't hold the crosshairs steady for the life of me. Luckily i had shooting sticks with me that i put under the stock to give me another point of contact and then i was able to make a perfect shot. Ive shot ground hogs at 400 yards laying prone with a bipod so a deer at 300 should have been cake but field positions change everything.
Respect for the game. Well said.
Well said Sir.
The hunting industry is partly to blame for this. Movies, media and video games are other contributors to this rise in hunters living out some kind of sniper fantasy.
The hunting industry has definitely lost it's moral compass.
I agree 100% with you! unfortunately ethics are not important enough now days and egos and bragging is a common thing in our society. Ammo and gun makers sometimes they don’t help the situation by the they advertise their product and media is a way to put a different prospective without being able to see the reality of the circumstance. Keep up the good work….👍🏻👍🏻
The gun industry and gun media is definitely mostly to blame. They not only legitimize unethical behavior; they promote it.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 DD just fallow the money they don t care.
Man man I’m voting you to be our next president!!🇺🇸🇺🇸 common let’s go I’m voting for you!! I agree with all the ethics you talk about let’s respect the animals the good lord has provided for us to have to provide for our family thank you for all your well explained points my friend 🙏👍