Frost Then again, the armor hung loose, so it didn’t transfer much energy to his body. His body under the armor was relatively untouched. His limbs were chewed up from pistol rounds (and that last shotgun shell to the leg).
I was concerned that they made silly Hollywood armor with gaps between the plates that would serve no real protection, but that was quickly dispelled when I saw the plates overlapped. There is some evidence that in Russia around the late viking age they would wear lamellar over the top of chainmail. That would be some incredible protection.
+dreyrugr Well i'd suppose if you would get a gambeson, a mail shirt, and a lamellar vest with shoulder pieces and somekind of tassets along with splint greaves and vambraces you'd pretty much have as much protection from penetration as a full set of 14th century plate would have, however i suspect this would be heavier but still cheaper to manufacture & maintain.
+Pitkane100 Penetration is a thing but like he said in the video, it does not prevent injuries as the shock is absorbed by the whole armor and the body behind it. It would cause internal bleeding I guess.
Manu K. Nah i don't think so, atleast without a mace or an axe you'd have trouble really bruising someone, even mail alone with gambeson provides some degree of protection from weapons like warhammers and maces because of it's sheer weight. Add a lamellar vest and you really wont't get internal bleeding from a sword blow, unless it's directed to the head or maybe by using half swording techniques, if we're talking about guns then he'd be dead obviously but arrows and swords or even one handed spears just don't have enough mass to do that. Remember that lamellar is very rigid so it's almost like a plate cuirass, below that is a full shirt of mail, below that is a gambeson and below that whatever other clothing he has. But these types of armor are the reason we saw a significant increase in the use of weapos like maces so they must have been useful, More importantly however a set of armor like the one i described could give the wearer an important ability: the ability to run trough arrow fire with much better chances of surviving in one piece, mail which had been in use since the early roman period on it's own survived well into the 17th century so it must have been a good protection either on it's own or especially with a gambeson (you should watch scholagladiatorias video on mail for more detailed info)
Lamellar armor was also used by the vikings and it was used with chain mail and gambison and you can't forget the steel spectacle helmet with how resistant lamellar is and padding from the secondary armors most likely the soldier could take the hit.
only some rounds from various guns esecally the pistols did the deed well but once you get to the 1500's and out ward with the military grade .69 and up with the flintlocks then yeah the armor failed compleatlly again it was in close range though but still failed.
@@TheManofthecross There was still some use for armor even til the early 19th century such as the cuirrassiers who wore breastplates to get a competitive edge against other cavalry who don't have armor.
God, I love getting to see wheellocks in action. Such an under appreciated weapon outside of enthusiast circles. Plus they just look awesome. The fantasy nerd in me loves them.
In the Pannonian Basin, an archeological anomaly has been uncovered. During the excavation of a submerged site of former human settlement dated to the Late Antedilluvian Era, a piece of armour had been found by a group of archeologists from the University of [REDACTED]. What has occured to them, however, is that the piece of armour has sustained significant damage - much more than any human wearer could possibly sustain. Moreover, the said piece of armour has been forged with a technique long-abandoned by the Late Antedilluvian civilization, obsolete by approximately a millenium, in fact. The scientists are struggling to find the meaning behind the construction and subsequent destruction of the artifact, and some attribute it to an unknown religious practice of the poorly understood Late Antedilluvian civilization.
@@hanburbger7782 Because we Native Americans wouldn't be very interesting to reenact. We tended to rely on stealth and ambush tactics in warfare. Something you white folk seem to be allergic to or something. Since it took you lot until the middle of the 20th century to adopt.
Enjoyed this immensely. What a great way to spend an afternoon. You may not consider this to be "archaeology" but it is pretty close, and most valuable for those who were looking for answers to their questions...... It would be interesting to see any difference in performance at say 75-100yds.... You live in an interesting area with such a mix of "West" and "East". I have only spent a small amount of time there but enjoyed it greatly. Thanks again. (I wasn't expecting it at all, but it was great to see that you included Chewbacca on the soundtrack, at 06:32...... :-).... )
True that they didn't have stainless steel, but they had a lot of different armors that could add up. The problem was that it became to heavy to wear, even in WW1 there were bullet-proof platings and such but it wasn't feasible to move in them, let alone run. Most people who haven't done military service don't realize how extremely hard it is to exercise in gear. For example, during my military service I could run 20km in 2dm snow, it was hard but doable. But running even 2km with combatgear weighing 28kg was much much worse strain on the body, and that was on flat terrain. I found this very interesting because it really shows the breaking-point when guns totally outclass armor.
@Ethan Allen, the Mongol composite recurve bows had 160lbs draw weight and higher - equal to the English longbow. 54lb draw weight is very weak, for mounted warriors or otherwise. Edit: For the folks below who have not done research on powerful composite bows and are skeptical, here are some sources from historians: 1) Russian historian George Vernadsky wrote that the Mongols carried two bows around, and at least one of the bows they carried had a pull of ~166 pounds: "Each archer usually carried two bows and two quivers. The Mongol bow was very large and of the composite type, it required a pull of at least 166 pounds" -The Mongols And Russia (vol-iii), By George Vernadsky and Michael Karpovich archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.183512/2015.183512.The-Mongols-And-Russia-vol-iii_djvu.txt 2) British historian James Chambers wrote that the Mongol bow had a pull up to 160 lbs: "between 100 and 160 pounds and snapped out its arrows over an effective range of 360 yards. The Mongols could bend and string their bows in the saddle by placing one end between their feet and their stirrups..." -Genghis Khan, by James Chambers books.google.com/books?id=_ucSDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT40&lpg=PT40&dq=160+pounds&source=bl&ots=R_zWX0NwNo&sig=ACfU3U1cXa_WDmskf5rnxAyaCd-_fC3q6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYw6-g1_vfAhXwc98KHSbkCK8Q6AEwEHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=160%20pounds&f=false 3) Mark C. Elliott, professor of Asian History at Harvard, wrote that 80 Qing Dynasty archers in a garrison at Hangzhou could draw composite bows of 147-173 lbs in draw weight: "...a strength of ten (about 133 pounds) was required for participation in hunts...A 1736 report found that of 3,200 troops at the Hangzhou garrison about 2,200 were able to draw bows of strengths six to ten [80-133], and 80 could handle bow strengths of eleven to thirteen [147-173 pounds]…In comparison, the 500 troops at the small Dezhou garrison acquitted themselves with honor, all of them being able to take a five-strength bow [67 pounds], 203 a six-strength [80 pounds], 137 a seven strength [93 pounds], and 85 a ten-strength bow [133 pounds]." books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=3,200+troops&source=bl&ots=I2Q7BgIlT5&sig=ACfU3U0ewrjMRdldxemsWYKLZm04_851GQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjU6-PX2_vfAhXJnuAKHZmBDIcQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=A%201736%20report%20found%20that%20of%203%2C200%20troops%20at%20the%20Hangzhou%20garrison%20about%202%2C200%20were%20able%20to%20draw&f=false 4) The Topkapi Palace Museum and Military Museum in Istanbul have 46 Ottoman era composite bows with an average draw of 120lbs. The thicker warbows (around 7 of them in the museums) have 160lbs draw weight. Adam Karpowicz wrote that he made hybrid target-warbow composite bows similar to the Turkish style with draw weights between 67.4lbs to 136lbs. Target bow-warbow hybrids were up to 136lbs draw weights. "The thickness of limbs for the flight bows was close to published measurements.6,7 These bows turned out to be over 100lb draw weight. Other bows, seen by the author in museums, had even thicker limbs.7, 8 It can be estimated Turkish bows in the range 90 to 160lb were common. The masses of tested bows were comparable to masses of old bows." www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm
I love that hungarian accent :) Experiments like this are a mix of experimental archaeology and some sort of survivalism. You never know when such infos will be useful.
Very well done. I am always amazed at the early European military and civilian armament you bring to the videos. I am glad you enjoy this rich culture of your countries.
Hey Cap, I know its 5 years later 🤦♂️, but I just watched this video for the foirst time! It was excellent just like all of your other videos. This one was particularly entertaining. Thanks for all you do. 👍
I know this video is old but I would love to see more videos of this nature. I'm fascinated by the 15th and 16th century where firearms shared the battlefeild with men at arms and footsoldiers in traditional armour. I know it's a pretty expensive venture to get good-quality armour for testing but I love watching these sorts of things. Super educational and entertaining at the same time.
Even though this video applies to a different region, this basically shows why the Japanese abandoned lamellar armour with the rise of Tanegashima Teppo and instead adopted European style cuirasses. The overlapping plates may fare well against a sword and even a bullet shot, but when you get denting like that it's really expensive to keep repairing it over and over again. Great video, I really feel like I've learned something useful.
Quite the opposite actually, the reason why lamellar armor was so popular among asian nation it was because their durability, sure it can get denting each time they got hit by projectile but it will be easily replaced with basicly any armor sheet you found on battlefield or from your enemy. The replacement technique is also quite easy to learn, even a simple soldier can repair their own lamellar without too much training.
Thank you for this excellent video! I have a vague Idea the amount of work and money that was involved and I appreciate you guys taking the time! Best MM
That is amazing, lamellar armor could stop bullets fired from early guns. In the end, firearms technology progressed to the point where bullets could penetrate any armor.
Honest and meticulous, i really like this channel! To me it would have been interesting with more information for each rifle tought. When you took the time to wear historical costumes you obviously know loads about this stuff!
I have several black powder rifles and handguns. Some are replicas and a few are actually from the era and still working. I really enjoy your channel. Utah, USA.
I must say the power of these guns has made me watch a ton of similar videos, all of which are enjoyable and yours excels because of variety of quality weapons and outfits. Very nice, thank you!
+Sharkalope productions They could try testing just the front plate. Body plates alone don't seem to be too expensive. The Larp variety goes for 50-150 dollars. Mabye authentically made plates will be more expensive but not 1000+ dollars.
the great beauty of this channel is the fact that our Hungarian friend has access to so many old types of weapons . And his very intelligent commentaries too :-)
In late periods we dont now how they prepair and cultivate metals, eaven in viking age the had metal that have 3more stronger and flexible then monern best metal that we can made. btw: usage of hunting and nonmaterial arrow never pennetrate armor eaven from linen sheets, try botkins or penetretions arrow that mongols often use in they raides..
Nice shot with the first firearm. I would have thought the arrows at first would have at ;east not broken at the haft. It would have been great fun to help with this demonstration. Very well done. Thank you. Fred
Great video, I've wondered & studied & tried to guess how these armours would "hold up" to firearms for a number of years for various games i'm involved in. I was pretty close , but its wonderful to actually see it. Thank-you so much. Dante.
Just a bit more info on the armor, the stainless steel (unhardened I’m assuming) is still a lot stronger than wrought iron or unhardened mild steel. The 2mm thickness is also much thicker than a lot of historical lamellar armor, 0.8-0.5 mm was not uncommon in pre gunpowder periods (but I do not know late lamellar armor was used and I do not know if it was made thicker or just discarded). This is still a very interesting test since a lot of late period plate armor could be several mm thick and the higher quality ones were case hardened or made with through hardened tempered steel which would be superior to just 2mm of stainless lamellar or even the 4mm on the overlaps.
The test is wonderfull and unique and i regret that i do not see often more of your videos in my suggestions . I think this vide is the perfect argument in the flame war bow vs musket. Only one note i think padded armor under the lamelar will had some effect on the shots
FFS, no they would not, they have about an inch of padding underneath it to disperse the force. Lames are touching meaning that most of the force would be lost as the ones around it share the individual damage.
Well, to be fair to the lamellar armor, it is a very old design, and the one shown here is based on a Hun model, from almost a millenia before widespread firearms. The steel is stronger, though, being modern.
Speed beats armor. The 5.56mm round is smaller that the 7.62mm but the 5.56mm is moving a lot faster then the 7.62mm resulting in much greater penetration.
@@rchowins It is about kinetic energy , applied pressure of bullet tip on armor surface , hardness of bullet core. Classic formula 1/2*mass*(velocity)^2 as you can see velocity is more effective than mass but not everything.
3:05 And now you all know why it took well over a century since the invention of the firearm for European armies to actually start taking it seriously. Could you imagine trying to use that thing in the heat of battle, praying that it'll somehow hit your target and not explode in your hands?
i love these types of rifles because they require the most skill and preparation. they works of art that have personalities that if you listen carefully can tell you how to properly use them. i wonder what were knights methods to combat rifles if armor couldnt cut it.
My guess is knights would of ditched most their armor when muskets became common place and would of became officers for the new style armies that were being created. Or would of joined some prestigious cavalry unit such as the dragoons/Hussars.
Great video but they should shoot from further back aswell. Would be interesting to see if it changes anything. It might take a few more shots to get it on target but it would be worth it lol.
Very cool video. I love when people demonstrate the power of these fine old weapons. I love the match lock. The shooter in the video looks like an authentic fusilier.
No one is really mentioning how the energy transfers were so dramatic between the early firearms and the newer flintlocks. The handgonne transferred just about as much energy as a powerful crossbow, which is crazy to think. And then, the dramatic jump from matchlocks transferring several hundred joules of energy to the flintlock transferring 3000. Absolutely insane. Although practically it made little difference to how it felt, mathematically, it would be like comparing the force of swatting a fly to getting hit by a sledgehammer.
Nice to see some cool old smoke poles again! Especially that old "fire stick". Wasn't much more than that, but quite rare. I'd like to see one of these tests with the old Ferguson rifle. That was a wheel lock of a different breed.
+druisteen Brown Bess has a higher caliber than the Charleville so I guess it will prove better on a close range target, but the Charleville was better at aiming so it was a weapon suitable for marksmen as well, where the Brown Bess proves useless when not fired is massive volleys. For a penetration test at close range the Brown Bess wins I guess, but on a large tactical view, both weapons have their pros and cons. Still would be great to see.
Perfect video for people arguing that armour could defeat even a matchlock, which is funny considering the matchlock was even more powerful in Arab, Indian and Chinese armies at the time, it had longer barrel, bigger calibre, they would often use much bigger charge against armoured units. Chinese were only ones seriously developing armour to stop guns, paper armour with multiple layer armour, only the Koreans really succeeded in this area, but then came spitzer rounds.
I expect that a lamellar armor made with iron scales rather than modern steel would prove much more vulnerable to the earlier weapons, particularly to the 17th-century matchlock musket, because iron is much less ductile than modern steel and would be more prone to shatter under the impact of a musket ball than stretch and deform like the steel scales used in these tests. The stretching and deformation of those steel scales absorbed and dispersed much of the projectile's kinetic energy, allowing the backing to resist penetration.
Some Chinese military buffs claimed that Brigandines especially the ones made during the Ming Dynasty and Manchu period totally replaces lamellar and plate armour. From their opinion, brigandines replaced lamellar and plate armour is because brigandines can stop musket shots, which is laughable. Because even a thick cotton layered brigandine cannot stop a musket shot, secondly it was really bulky and heavy, this is why in Ming Dynasty and Manchu period lamellar and plated armour coexist with brigandines.
During a calavry charge at the siege of Derry(1689) it is reported the calavry breastplates stopped musket balls.When this happened an experienced infantryman told his colleagues to aim at the horses, which stopped the charge. This was a different type of armour though.
0:32 auto-pistol bullets stopped cold falling off armor and/or sticking. - Also, it's very interesting seeing period military clothing as would be worn by some of my ancestors.
This exemplifies the boon of a longer barrel to give the bullet greater velocity via more time to accelerate, it's why the 9mm pistol failed but the percussion and flintlock rifles put holes in the armor despite being technologically behind using a less potent powder. Woot for learning this from Gun Jesus
On some level that’s fair but i disagree because guns like the FN-57 pistol shoot bullets that are small and have high velocity so they can defeat armor, though that has a fair part to do with the design of the bullets which are more rifle like. I do still think a 9mm round coming out of a carbine would punch a hole in that armor if it had the barrel length to pick up more speed. A 4-5 inch barrel vs a 12-13 inch barrel is a world of difference to properly allow a cartridge to expend energy
Excellent video! It looks as though that armor would stop a bullet from an 1858 Remington revolver. Not that these two types of people would ever meet :)
Common stainless steel - perfect for pans and pots. Try the cheapest construction steel like S355J2 (1.0562), the strength is a bit like a blacksmith's product (a bit). The tests would be closer to the historical reality with an extra rusty patina. . Nice movie and fun time travel in the fumes of gunpowder smoke ...
I love how, for the most part, the marksmen's oufits match their firearms in historical period and origin
Great video!
cool video and awesome channel, thanks for bringing me here
Nice to see some love from Forgotten Weapons! I'm a huge fan of both channels of course.
Cool, Ian is here too :)
It's gun Jesus
it's ANTIFA jesus
0:30 when you catch that brat thats been sneaking into the back and drinking the communion wine
@jack bauer That's a bummer
@@mayorgeneralramirez1997 he can take it he’s jack bauer
Lmao
you say that like they aren't gambling away at midnight in the church cellar
Most people: “All metal armors were obsolete by the mid 19th century”
Ned Kelly: “am I a joke to you?”
God this is such an obscure reference and I love it
Italians in early-mid 20th century: 🗿🗿🗿
he still died, didn't he?
Carlos Leon He was hanged yes, his last stand is rather iconic. Armour had no padding so he was still concussed but he survived.
Frost
Then again, the armor hung loose, so it didn’t transfer much energy to his body. His body under the armor was relatively untouched. His limbs were chewed up from pistol rounds (and that last shotgun shell to the leg).
I was concerned that they made silly Hollywood armor with gaps between the plates that would serve no real protection, but that was quickly dispelled when I saw the plates overlapped.
There is some evidence that in Russia around the late viking age they would wear lamellar over the top of chainmail. That would be some incredible protection.
+dreyrugr Well i'd suppose if you would get a gambeson, a mail shirt, and a lamellar vest with shoulder pieces and somekind of tassets along with splint greaves and vambraces you'd pretty much have as much protection from penetration as a full set of 14th century plate would have, however i suspect this would be heavier but still cheaper to manufacture & maintain.
+Pitkane100 Penetration is a thing but like he said in the video, it does not prevent injuries as the shock is absorbed by the whole armor and the body behind it. It would cause internal bleeding I guess.
Manu K. Nah i don't think so, atleast without a mace or an axe you'd have trouble really bruising someone, even mail alone with gambeson provides some degree of protection from weapons like warhammers and maces because of it's sheer weight. Add a lamellar vest and you really wont't get internal bleeding from a sword blow, unless it's directed to the head or maybe by using half swording techniques, if we're talking about guns then he'd be dead obviously but arrows and swords or even one handed spears just don't have enough mass to do that. Remember that lamellar is very rigid so it's almost like a plate cuirass, below that is a full shirt of mail, below that is a gambeson and below that whatever other clothing he has. But these types of armor are the reason we saw a significant increase in the use of weapos like maces so they must have been useful, More importantly however a set of armor like the one i described could give the wearer an important ability: the ability to run trough arrow fire with much better chances of surviving in one piece, mail which had been in use since the early roman period on it's own survived well into the 17th century so it must have been a good protection either on it's own or especially with a gambeson (you should watch scholagladiatorias video on mail for more detailed info)
Pitkane100 Yeah I agree with this, I was only talking about firearms!
Manu K. Oh yeah, i figured it that way. Sorry for the long reply, i got a bit carried away as you probably can see :P
9:08 that smoke trail looked so awesome
I mean, it did pretty good and really only failed against technology from 1000 years in the future.
Some Siberian peoples such as the Koryak were still using it into the early 20th century.
Brandon Pack firearms were around when armor was.
Lamellar armor was also used by the vikings and it was used with chain mail and gambison and you can't forget the steel spectacle helmet with how resistant lamellar is and padding from the secondary armors most likely the soldier could take the hit.
only some rounds from various guns esecally the pistols did the deed well but once you get to the 1500's and out ward with the military grade .69 and up with the flintlocks then yeah the armor failed compleatlly again it was in close range though but still failed.
@@TheManofthecross There was still some use for armor even til the early 19th century such as the cuirrassiers who wore breastplates to get a competitive edge against other cavalry who don't have armor.
God, I love getting to see wheellocks in action. Such an under appreciated weapon outside of enthusiast circles. Plus they just look awesome. The fantasy nerd in me loves them.
Future archeologists are gonna be very confused when they dig that armor up
In the Pannonian Basin, an archeological anomaly has been uncovered. During the excavation of a submerged site of former human settlement dated to the Late Antedilluvian Era, a piece of armour had been found by a group of archeologists from the University of [REDACTED]. What has occured to them, however, is that the piece of armour has sustained significant damage - much more than any human wearer could possibly sustain. Moreover, the said piece of armour has been forged with a technique long-abandoned by the Late Antedilluvian civilization, obsolete by approximately a millenium, in fact. The scientists are struggling to find the meaning behind the construction and subsequent destruction of the artifact, and some attribute it to an unknown religious practice of the poorly understood Late Antedilluvian civilization.
They are going too think the Chinese could easily have reppeled the mongals
European reenactors get to have all the fun.
All we Americans do is Civil War shit. Damnit, I wanna take my Mosin to some knight motherfuckers!
@@Mortablunt You know they developed better armour made to deflect grapeshot right?
@@Mortablunt why no native american reenactments... lol
@@hanburbger7782 close to no documentation
@@hanburbger7782 Because we Native Americans wouldn't be very interesting to reenact. We tended to rely on stealth and ambush tactics in warfare.
Something you white folk seem to be allergic to or something. Since it took you lot until the middle of the 20th century to adopt.
Enjoyed this immensely. What a great way to spend an afternoon. You may not consider this to be "archaeology" but it is pretty close, and most valuable for those who were looking for answers to their questions...... It would be interesting to see any difference in performance at say 75-100yds.... You live in an interesting area with such a mix of "West" and "East". I have only spent a small amount of time there but enjoyed it greatly. Thanks again. (I wasn't expecting it at all, but it was great to see that you included Chewbacca on the soundtrack, at 06:32...... :-).... )
:))))
True that they didn't have stainless steel, but they had a lot of different armors that could add up. The problem was that it became to heavy to wear, even in WW1 there were bullet-proof platings and such but it wasn't feasible to move in them, let alone run. Most people who haven't done military service don't realize how extremely hard it is to exercise in gear.
For example, during my military service I could run 20km in 2dm snow, it was hard but doable. But running even 2km with combatgear weighing 28kg was much much worse strain on the body, and that was on flat terrain.
I found this very interesting because it really shows the breaking-point when guns totally outclass armor.
I didn't expect you here! Nice to see you
Weast
Very nice!
The disclosure at the start about the materials used is really what helps make the rest of the video informative and not only enjoyable.
54lb bow? why not tickle the armor with feathers as well?
+Lukas Jankauskas ikr? why no crossbow either? would have loved to see what a crossbow bolt would have done.
54lb bow will take whitetail deer and black bear. Not exactly a war bow in the Agincourt sense but nothing to sneer at for mounted Scythians or Turks
Mexico City, Wait, CA hasn't banned bows yet? :3c
@Ethan Allen, the Mongol composite recurve bows had 160lbs draw weight and higher - equal to the English longbow. 54lb draw weight is very weak, for mounted warriors or otherwise. Edit: For the folks below who have not done research on powerful composite bows and are skeptical, here are some sources from historians: 1) Russian historian George Vernadsky wrote that the Mongols carried two bows around, and at least one of the bows they carried had a pull of ~166 pounds: "Each archer usually carried two bows and two quivers. The Mongol bow was very large and of the composite type, it required a pull of at least 166 pounds" -The Mongols And Russia (vol-iii), By George Vernadsky and Michael Karpovich
archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.183512/2015.183512.The-Mongols-And-Russia-vol-iii_djvu.txt
2) British historian James Chambers wrote that the Mongol bow had a pull up to 160 lbs: "between 100 and 160 pounds and snapped out its arrows over an effective range of 360 yards. The Mongols could bend and string their bows in the saddle by placing one end between their feet and their stirrups..." -Genghis Khan, by James Chambers
books.google.com/books?id=_ucSDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT40&lpg=PT40&dq=160+pounds&source=bl&ots=R_zWX0NwNo&sig=ACfU3U1cXa_WDmskf5rnxAyaCd-_fC3q6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYw6-g1_vfAhXwc98KHSbkCK8Q6AEwEHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=160%20pounds&f=false
3) Mark C. Elliott, professor of Asian History at Harvard, wrote that 80 Qing Dynasty archers in a garrison at Hangzhou could draw composite bows of 147-173 lbs in draw weight: "...a strength of ten (about 133 pounds) was required for participation in hunts...A 1736 report found that of 3,200 troops at the Hangzhou garrison about 2,200 were able to draw bows of strengths six to ten [80-133], and 80 could handle bow strengths of eleven to thirteen [147-173 pounds]…In comparison, the 500 troops at the small Dezhou garrison acquitted themselves with honor, all of them being able to take a five-strength bow [67 pounds], 203 a six-strength [80 pounds], 137 a seven strength [93 pounds], and 85 a ten-strength bow [133 pounds]."
books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=3,200+troops&source=bl&ots=I2Q7BgIlT5&sig=ACfU3U0ewrjMRdldxemsWYKLZm04_851GQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjU6-PX2_vfAhXJnuAKHZmBDIcQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=A%201736%20report%20found%20that%20of%203%2C200%20troops%20at%20the%20Hangzhou%20garrison%20about%202%2C200%20were%20able%20to%20draw&f=false
4) The Topkapi Palace Museum and Military Museum in Istanbul have 46 Ottoman era composite bows with an average draw of 120lbs. The thicker warbows (around 7 of them in the museums) have 160lbs draw weight. Adam Karpowicz wrote that he made hybrid target-warbow composite bows similar to the Turkish style with draw weights between 67.4lbs to 136lbs. Target bow-warbow hybrids were up to 136lbs draw weights.
"The thickness of limbs for the flight bows was close to published measurements.6,7 These bows turned out to be over 100lb draw weight. Other bows, seen by the author in museums, had even thicker limbs.7, 8 It can be estimated Turkish bows in the range 90 to 160lb were common. The masses of tested bows were comparable to masses of old bows."
www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm
Composit bow is powerfull
A pair of friars with automatic pistols is something I didn't know I was missing in life...
I love that hungarian accent :)
Experiments like this are a mix of experimental archaeology and some sort of survivalism. You never know when such infos will be useful.
As a shooter of old military weapons I find all your videos of great value and they give immense viewing pleasure
The period uniforms were a definite nice touch. I always enjoy your videos, because history is really interesting.
Ah yes men in black robes with modern weapons pistol shooting at a 16th century armor
My first thought was when hearing the accent: they are hungarians... and so they are :) nice work thanks for sharing :)
Very well done. I am always amazed at the early European military and civilian armament you bring to the videos. I am glad you enjoy this rich culture of your countries.
Hey Cap, I know its 5 years later 🤦♂️, but I just watched this video for the foirst time! It was excellent just like all of your other videos. This one was particularly entertaining. Thanks for all you do. 👍
Wonderful experiment, very informative, and good fun! It is good to see how you Hungarians preserve and respect your history.
As a firearms enthusiast as well as a Medieval (SCA) Heavy Fighter Practitioner I truly appreciate this video.
I want that wheel lock pistol so bad it hurts. I'd drop $1k o one if someone was making a reproduction.
Yes, yes you would.
Tony Ennis
That's about what i paid for my .62 cal jaeger rifle. I've always wanted a wheel lock.
I know this video is old but I would love to see more videos of this nature. I'm fascinated by the 15th and 16th century where firearms shared the battlefeild with men at arms and footsoldiers in traditional armour. I know it's a pretty expensive venture to get good-quality armour for testing but I love watching these sorts of things. Super educational and entertaining at the same time.
Even though this video applies to a different region, this basically shows why the Japanese abandoned lamellar armour with the rise of Tanegashima Teppo and instead adopted European style cuirasses. The overlapping plates may fare well against a sword and even a bullet shot, but when you get denting like that it's really expensive to keep repairing it over and over again.
Great video, I really feel like I've learned something useful.
Quite the opposite actually, the reason why lamellar armor was so popular among asian nation it was because their durability, sure it can get denting each time they got hit by projectile but it will be easily replaced with basicly any armor sheet you found on battlefield or from your enemy. The replacement technique is also quite easy to learn, even a simple soldier can repair their own lamellar without too much training.
Still one of my favorite. videos by you. Always high quality work.
Thank you for this excellent video! I have a vague Idea the amount of work and money that was involved and I appreciate you guys taking the time! Best MM
Nobody:
Italians in ww1: hold my armor !
I think Soviet Assault Sappers used armor far better.
That is amazing, lamellar armor could stop bullets fired from early guns. In the end, firearms technology progressed to the point where bullets could penetrate any armor.
Honest and meticulous, i really like this channel! To me it would have been interesting with more information for each rifle tought. When you took the time to wear historical costumes you obviously know loads about this stuff!
I have several black powder rifles and handguns. Some are replicas and a few are actually from the era and still working. I really enjoy your channel. Utah, USA.
2:02
"This armor is too big for me!"
Love your work btw
I must say the power of these guns has made me watch a ton of similar videos, all of which are enjoyable and yours excels because of variety of quality weapons and outfits. Very nice, thank you!
Do you know that this is about future, not about history? Great video! I'm experimenting with both, black powder guns and armors.
De jó, egy igényes magyar csatorna! Gratulálok
HONGARIA ???
I would like to see something like this done with reneissance armor such as the italian white armor, german gothic armor and maximilian armor.
+Sharkalope productions
They could try testing just the front plate.
Body plates alone don't seem to be too expensive.
The Larp variety goes for 50-150 dollars.
Mabye authentically made plates will be more expensive but not 1000+ dollars.
The problem is most of the times you are shot when wearing that armour is in the belly area and the neck area.
the great beauty of this channel is the fact that our Hungarian friend has access to so many old types of weapons . And his very intelligent commentaries too :-)
Haha, in America they reenact the 1800's, in Europe you reenact the 600's! Very cool.
CodeSoldier :) We do 19th century as well, but we have a quite long time period of 2000 years killing each other to choose from. :)
the 18th century too [1740 period]
***** That looks pretty cool.
In late periods we dont now how they prepair and cultivate metals, eaven
in viking age the had metal that have 3more stronger and flexible then
monern best metal that we can made.
btw: usage of hunting and
nonmaterial arrow never pennetrate armor eaven from linen sheets, try
botkins or penetretions arrow that mongols often use in they raides..
Jan Vondracek no they didint had ''magic old times metal better than what we can make today''
I wonder how a civilian blackpowder hunting rifle would do? Like a Kentucky rifle.
@Weedus Musket*
Kentucky rifles were rifles I'm sure since they had rifling
Yeah is a rifle you can shoot conical bullet's
@Man Dingo I don't see where he went wrong. The Kentucky Long Rifle was indeed a rifled hunting weapon pressed into military service.
@@mrmoth26 no
Best statement of this video: "and of course to have some fun!"
Very Cool! Great to see the weapon types most people have never heard of. GREAT JOB!
Great video! very entertaining, I enjoyed it very much!
Very enjoyable and very well put together video.
What a nice presentation!!! 👏🏽
I always interesting about armor and firearms near Renaissance to end of Napoleonic era. This video is fun to watch!! 📺
Nice shot with the first firearm. I would have thought the arrows at first would have at ;east not broken at the haft. It would have been great fun to help with this demonstration. Very well done. Thank you. Fred
Another great video. It would be interesting to know how that armor would stand up to sword thrusts or the Roman Pilum
Excellent and informative study of these great historical weapons and armor. Merci beaucoup.
What a great way to spend a day doing what you love the best!!
This is an excellent video and history of small arms. It really makes me more and more interested in older BP weapons.
Great video it's awesome watching these old guns in action
This might be the first time I’ve seen someone fire those hand cannons.
great video and i am enjoying reading the comments which makes a change on youtube
Just some bros chilling out and shooting old guns
very nice!
Love the costumes, guys. Way to commit to the bit. :D
I almost cryed seeing such a magnificent armor being destroyed by those boomsticks. Great video, though.
This hurts to watch.
That armor looked so nice.
My stomach hurts now.
Great video, I've wondered & studied & tried to guess how these armours would "hold up" to firearms for a number of years for various games i'm involved in. I was pretty close , but its wonderful to actually see it. Thank-you so much. Dante.
Dang it hurts to see those besutiful armors destroyed. Still it was an awsome video.
Just a bit more info on the armor, the stainless steel (unhardened I’m assuming) is still a lot stronger than wrought iron or unhardened mild steel. The 2mm thickness is also much thicker than a lot of historical lamellar armor, 0.8-0.5 mm was not uncommon in pre gunpowder periods (but I do not know late lamellar armor was used and I do not know if it was made thicker or just discarded).
This is still a very interesting test since a lot of late period plate armor could be several mm thick and the higher quality ones were case hardened or made with through hardened tempered steel which would be superior to just 2mm of stainless lamellar or even the 4mm on the overlaps.
The test is wonderfull and unique and i regret that i do not see often more of your videos in my suggestions . I think this vide is the perfect argument in the flame war bow vs musket. Only one note i think padded armor under the lamelar will had some effect on the shots
I wold expect high velocity rounds to penetrate, but I am surprised at how effective it was.
FFS, no they would not, they have about an inch of padding underneath it to disperse the force. Lames are touching meaning that most of the force would be lost as the ones around it share the individual damage.
Well, to be fair to the lamellar armor, it is a very old design, and the one shown here is based on a Hun model, from almost a millenia before widespread firearms. The steel is stronger, though, being modern.
Speed beats armor. The 5.56mm round is smaller that the 7.62mm but the 5.56mm is moving a lot faster then the 7.62mm resulting in much greater penetration.
@@rchowins Unless you're talking about 7.62 NATO, of course...
@@rchowins It is about kinetic energy , applied pressure of bullet tip on armor surface , hardness of bullet core. Classic formula 1/2*mass*(velocity)^2 as you can see velocity is more effective than mass but not everything.
3:05 And now you all know why it took well over a century since the invention of the firearm for European armies to actually start taking it seriously. Could you imagine trying to use that thing in the heat of battle, praying that it'll somehow hit your target and not explode in your hands?
Well done mate love it and it really looked like fun, all the best from Adelaide Australia.
Immensely interesting! Thank you for your presentation.
Looks like velocity was the ticket to get through the armor, great video.
i love these types of rifles because they require the most skill and preparation. they works of art that have personalities that if you listen carefully can tell you how to properly use them. i wonder what were knights methods to combat rifles if armor couldnt cut it.
My guess is knights would of ditched most their armor when muskets became common place and would of became officers for the new style armies that were being created. Or would of joined some prestigious cavalry unit such as the dragoons/Hussars.
Great video but they should shoot from further back aswell. Would be interesting to see if it changes anything. It might take a few more shots to get it on target but it would be worth it lol.
Very cool video. I love when people demonstrate the power of these fine old weapons. I love the match lock. The shooter in the video looks like an authentic fusilier.
No one is really mentioning how the energy transfers were so dramatic between the early firearms and the newer flintlocks. The handgonne transferred just about as much energy as a powerful crossbow, which is crazy to think. And then, the dramatic jump from matchlocks transferring several hundred joules of energy to the flintlock transferring 3000. Absolutely insane. Although practically it made little difference to how it felt, mathematically, it would be like comparing the force of swatting a fly to getting hit by a sledgehammer.
Loved it, haven't smelled up close powder in years, but this makes me want to get back out there with a fire-lock again!
Nice to see some cool old smoke poles again! Especially that old "fire stick". Wasn't much more than that, but quite rare. I'd like to see one of these tests with the old Ferguson rifle. That was a wheel lock of a different breed.
And now it seems we are going back to metal armour with AR500 steel plates.
i wish i had that armor i love your style mind you guys are good i love the classics
Goddamn! This is the classiest gun channel I've ever seen.
Very good trial of various weapon systems against armor.
10:15
The gun safety nut in me screams in terror lol
Want to see that armor getting shredded to pieces?
Give it to the slingshot channel 😁
*HA HA HA HA LET ME SHOW YOU IT'S FUTURES*
Would be nice to have a similar test versus a 4-5 mm steel breast plate, the type of plate sometimes worn during the late 16th century.
Now I would love to see a variety of Byzantine Armors going up against the same weapons.
Where exactly does one acquire a Wheelock? I’ve seen reproductions of caplocks and flintlocks, but I really want a wheellock.
Awesome video. Thank you.
Love your videos, please keep them coming!
Brown bess vs charleville will made a good review
I have an original 1766, but no Bess yet. :) I like the idea!
oh i forgot ...it's the armor of Attila army you usued ?
druisteen
:) of course, the original wone :) Just kidding of course :) It is a non authentic copy of the type used in that century.
+druisteen Brown Bess has a higher caliber than the Charleville so I guess it will prove better on a close range target, but the Charleville was better at aiming so it was a weapon suitable for marksmen as well, where the Brown Bess proves useless when not fired is massive volleys. For a penetration test at close range the Brown Bess wins I guess, but on a large tactical view, both weapons have their pros and cons. Still would be great to see.
+Manu K. I always thought that the Charvell was less accurate than the brown bess? probably wrong but I thought the brown bess was a bit more modern.
Very interestingAnd I always love seeing a wheellock used.
Great job guys!! The costumes make the video even more enjoyable.
I'd like to see a side by side comparison between the musket and a modern semi auto assault rifle
Perfect video for people arguing that armour could defeat even a matchlock, which is funny considering the matchlock was even more powerful in Arab, Indian and Chinese armies at the time, it had longer barrel, bigger calibre, they would often use much bigger charge against armoured units.
Chinese were only ones seriously developing armour to stop guns, paper armour with multiple layer armour, only the Koreans really succeeded in this area, but then came spitzer rounds.
I expect that a lamellar armor made with iron scales rather than modern steel would prove much more vulnerable to the earlier weapons, particularly to the 17th-century matchlock musket, because iron is much less ductile than modern steel and would be more prone to shatter under the impact of a musket ball than stretch and deform like the steel scales used in these tests. The stretching and deformation of those steel scales absorbed and dispersed much of the projectile's kinetic energy, allowing the backing to resist penetration.
Excellent and informative study of these great historical weapons and armor. Merci beaucoup.@
Some Chinese military buffs claimed that Brigandines especially the ones made during the Ming Dynasty and Manchu period totally replaces lamellar and plate armour. From their opinion, brigandines replaced lamellar and plate armour is because brigandines can stop musket shots, which is laughable. Because even a thick cotton layered brigandine cannot stop a musket shot, secondly it was really bulky and heavy, this is why in Ming Dynasty and Manchu period lamellar and plated armour coexist with brigandines.
During a calavry charge at the siege of Derry(1689) it is reported the calavry breastplates stopped musket balls.When this happened an experienced infantryman told his colleagues to aim at the horses, which stopped the charge. This was a different type of armour though.
A match lock musket is basically a tiny cannon
Tiny being used very loosely
I honestly still find it funny that in late medieval times knights in armour were running round shooting eachother with guns
0:29 "parry this you filthy casual!"
0:32 auto-pistol bullets stopped cold falling off armor and/or sticking. - Also, it's very interesting seeing period military clothing as would be worn by some of my ancestors.
This exemplifies the boon of a longer barrel to give the bullet greater velocity via more time to accelerate, it's why the 9mm pistol failed but the percussion and flintlock rifles put holes in the armor despite being technologically behind using a less potent powder.
Woot for learning this from Gun Jesus
Well, partially. 9mm is very light, 13 grams for the copper jacket I believe. This means that even at high velocities it has relatively little energy.
On some level that’s fair but i disagree because guns like the FN-57 pistol shoot bullets that are small and have high velocity so they can defeat armor, though that has a fair part to do with the design of the bullets which are more rifle like.
I do still think a 9mm round coming out of a carbine would punch a hole in that armor if it had the barrel length to pick up more speed. A 4-5 inch barrel vs a 12-13 inch barrel is a world of difference to properly allow a cartridge to expend energy
Excellent video! It looks as though that armor would stop a bullet from an 1858 Remington revolver. Not that these two types of people would ever meet :)
Never heard of a handgonne, before... I want one immediately
Simply fire one of these old muskets with too large of a powder load! That will make your handgonne!
@@BrianMusic12 that's a good one
Common stainless steel - perfect for pans and pots.
Try the cheapest construction steel like S355J2 (1.0562), the strength is a bit like a blacksmith's product (a bit).
The tests would be closer to the historical reality with an extra rusty patina. .
Nice movie and fun time travel in the fumes of gunpowder smoke ...