I'm sorry but your point about not telling Billy he's going to die is terrible. She helped him with the sigil but that's nowhere near interfering with death. There's nothing to say if she hadn't warned him he wouldn't have just died anyway (probably in a worse way). She even had a scene where she says she warned her previous coven about them all dying and they still died. I appreciate your show and views but this is just not a good argument or thing to get hung up on.
Death is always coming. I thought that was the point of this episode. The Sigil definitely protected Billy from his own mother. Perhaps for the reunion in Billy's future. But yeah death is always coming, comes for us all.
She stopped accurately predicting these things as it both changes nothing AND gets her hated & hounded. You imagine he tells hisnoarents at his Barmitzmah that the FT they hired told him he was going to die? At the same time, the Hex is going on down the road? Also, Death comes for us all is the point, AND he needed to change.
To address John’s issue (7:40) if the kid was going to die, he was going to die. She “couldn’t” stop that, she could only help the person who would be living, out.
He's never happy... that was an answer you were looking for, and they didn't leave it open. They answered it, and you aren't happy. Her coven said something along the lines of, "it's not for you to change." This episode was PERFECTION
John , you missed the point of the episode. Lilia doesn't see death as bad. She sees it as rebirth. Lilia knows she will die when she closes the iron maiden. She accepts death.
Your comment about Lilia not warning William on his impending death is way off! She has stated throughout the Series that she had repeatedly warned others about their demise. They still died. And all she got for her trouble was being run out of town. She couldn’t even save her original Coven. Implying in this Universe, certain aspects of Fate cannot be altered. William was “fated” to die… period. She was as comforting as she could be without freaking him out in telling him to enjoy the here and now. But her loyalty/focus was and had to be on Billy. His spirit, and protecting HIM from any and all magical forces that might want to do him harm until he was old enough and his power had activated so he could protect himself! She did a VERY GOOD DEED!
John, not only has it been stated many many times that Lilia sees death and is unable to stop, it’s a whole aspect of her character and arc. She’s running from her abilities because it causes her distress. She’s did what she actually thought would help in that moment. The sigil also erases seeing his death from her memory, which I am sure felt better in the moment. The second part is that these are witches and I feel like the show has made it clear that they’re morally gray. They love and feel pain, and have some sort of compass, but they have an allegiance to the craft and their coven that seems to supersede average humans walking around. Billy was always meant to be a part of her coven, not this William kid who she could feel sorry for, but ultimately not feel as strongly tied to.
It was explained that she couldn’t change the outcome for William/Billy in the scene with the older witch. She knew everyone would die in her old coven, even after telling them, it didn’t change anything. So even if she told him, it would still happen
@@spinaruni8002 I also think she was tired of seeing death. She says it several times throughout the series and her whole coven dies bcuz no one believes her. I doubt anyone would have believed her at the party
They did explain why she didn’t tell William about the accident in this episode. You just weren’t paying attention when she was learning to read tea leaves. She said her entire coven died from fever and she tried to tell them and it still happened… death comes for us all
I really wish he would wait to give these reviews until Kris Carr was on the show. She not only gives great insight but would absolutely call John out on all these mistakes he’s making about the show.
You clearly missed the point of the episode. EVERYONE DIES! It's no one's job to stop death or avoid it in the end death comes for us all. And when it's our time we should embrace it. That was what her teacher was teaching her. Her being able to see the future wasn't to keep people from dying she says this when Lilia says she stopped using her power because it didn't help her save her Coven or her family or anyone she loved. Death is inevitable. If William was meant to die nothing would've stopped that.
Throughout several episodes, including this one, Lilia has mentioned seeing death in advance and warning others, only for it to change nothing. She told her coven, yet they still succumbed to fever. This shows that while she has foresight, she can't alter outcomes; even her teacher reminded her that all she can do is observe. She knew she couldn't prevent what would happen to William, so she focused on saving Billy instead. And honestly, I'd never expect an elderly woman to tell a 13-year-old he's going to die.
I think you are missing a point. Lillia's frustration with her whole life is that she cant stop death. The sigil was to give him time to adjust. She tried to stop the death of her coven. All she sees is death.
John gets hung up on the dumbest stuff sometimes. Then reverts to using a belittling nerd voice when he feels backed into a corner. Lilia’s teacher says the theme of the episode out loud near the climax “your task isn’t to control it’s to see”. She’s a fortune teller not a fortune changer. That’s the tragedy. She sees misery but can’t change what’s she’s seen. Billy was dying no matter what, and no she didn’t “literally sentence Billy to death”. That’s asinine. If anything she did him a favor but not giving him the burden of knowing. All of this was predestined and we know that from the outbursts she had throughout the series. Those would not have happened if the future wasn’t specifically set. Sometimes John just refuses to engage with the show and where it’s at lol
I mean, Lilia's ENTIRE arc was about learning or realizing that her power doesn't grant her the authority, power, or right to alter the future. All she can do is see the future. So William was always going to die, her telling him would not have changed a thing. Death comes for us all, that's the point. Giving him time was the least she could do. And I think she new that was the extent of her ability in the moment.
Wasn’t the point that she can’t change anything? Her mentor literally said her job was to see. All roses lead to death. It was Williams time to die. We also learned this in What If when Dr Strange couldn’t avoid Rachel’s death. You cannot change it.
I felt it was clear when she told her mentor that she tried to warn them about the plague, but they all died anyways. I think this is a perfect explanation, but I guarantee you John will argue it down and explain how he thinks that’s not sufficient L O L. He doesn’t like being wrong. 😂
I don’t get why John thinks Lilia not telling William he was going to die was such a major faux pas, when she said she told her coven they were going to die, and they brushed it off. Unlike Thanos, Death is inevitable. She learned this.
As Lilia`s mentor said: Your job is not to control, your job is to see! As we learned, everitime Lilia forsaw death throughout her live (which is most of what she could see, as stated by herself), she was unable to prevent it, even if she tried. I think she learned her lesson. It is a nod toward the Cassandra Complex from Greek mythology.
“Your task is not to control, but to see” Death always comes, and it was coming for William. At least that’s what I think her reason was for not saving William.
I think I agree with everyone that John is too hung up on Lilia not telling Billy that he was going to die. Lilia has learned all her life that she can't and shouldn't try to cheat death. She tried to save her teacher and her coven but they all died anyway. "Death comes for us all" "It's a comfort", "Your task is not to control, but to see". I agree with John that great episodes make previous episodes and the show as a whole stronger. Whereas many MCU and Disney+ projects fail to stick the landing and make the entire thing, including the good parts, seem underwhelming, Agatha is making people want to go back and rewatch the earlier episodes with the new context and character development.
Lilia told her previous coven that they’d die of the flu and they still died. Her mentor says, “Death comes for us all.” She couldn’t stop William’s fate, regardless if she said to go a different route.
I think it's pretty obvious why she didn't tell Williams he was going to die, she didn't know how it was going to happen, and you can't prevent fate. Lidia didn't see a car crash. She just saw another soul. That's why she told him to "Enjoy the now. That's the only thing that's certain." And the sigil didn't change the results of what happened so it didn't interfere with anything. Preventing witches from finding him couldn't be interference because no one knew that he existed, so who's plans does that interfere with?
Lilia said in a previous episode that she became a fraud purposely because she couldn't stop the future from happening. People would die even if she tried to intervene, but they would just blame her. Lilia said she'd get run outta towns every time she tried.
@Keykatriz That's my issue with John's gripe. What purpose would her warning Billy have served other than to make john feel better? If someone walked up to him and told him that he would die within a few hours in a car accident. How would he react to that news?
I think you're missing it. What happens happens. She only sees what is going to happen. She can't change what she sees. If he went to the golden arches he would only die later
I think John missed big chunks of this episode especially when she’s told by her mum which that she can’t escape it. Death comes for all. When She told them about the disease that would kill them.
Lilia literally also says she couldn’t have stopped it anyways..with her witch, her whole village getting sick and dying. She saw it coming, and couldn’t stop it. So even if she tried to stop WILLIAMS DEATH (saying go to McDonald’s, take an uber) it wouldn’t have mattered. William would have gotten into the accident regardless. It was fate. And she prob knew that by her village bring the lesson of ‘even if I try to stop something I know is coming, it won’t change it from happening’
Dude, she literally said she couldn’t change things. She tried to save her master and couldn’t. She saw she couldn’t do a thing about William, so she did about Billy.
John - I hear your concerns about Lilia not trying to save William but they clearly stated that she learned that her original coven would die from a fever and couldn’t change that event. I took that as saying that major events like death could not be changed - at least not by Lilia.
But Lililia not telling William he was going to die is built into who Lilia is in the story. She specifically speaks about trying to tap down her actual power because she previously warned people about when they were going to die and not only did telling them not prevent their deaths (which she's talked about a few times now, including this episode), but she was also blamed for their deaths because she openly predicted them.
My thoughts as to why Lilia didn't try to stop what happened to William came from when she was with her mentor. She said that she did tell them about their deaths but it didn't make a difference and they died the way she foresaw anyway. In my mind she would have figured no matter what she said it would happen anyway.
Lilia might be able to affect the timeline but they strictly establish that she can't prevent death. Apart from William there are 2 instances showing this 1- trying to save Alice by asking her not to save Agatha. 2- she tells her mentor that the whole coven is going to die of fever but they die like that anyway. So it might be that even if she warned William about his death, it would have happened any other way or something. So she did the next thing she could do with her power and placed the Sigil giving Billy time to adjust. Addition: Lilia also says that all she sees is death. It can be that she's not just talking about her own death but people's death in general, i.e., everytime she sees someone, she can see how they die. But despite of that she can't do anything to prevent those deaths and feels helpless resulting in her trying to ignore her powers. She still tries to help people in other ways. It's a bit far-fetched but, if true, adds another layer of tragedy to her story. Another addition (coming back after seeing the last 2 episodes): The beginning of 8th episode supports my theory. Lilia warned Agatha to duck when death called her coward and she dead but then she died moments later in the same scene. Again Lilia failed to prevent someone's death.
Here we go again about John not paying enough attention. Lilia didn't interfere about William's death because he saw what Billy could become. She saw Billy will be something special. If she let William live, Billy will have no vessel he could take or at least what's going to happen will be different. She knows there's something bigger going to happen, and she just cast the sigil so Billy can have time to adjust.
It’s not like Lilia could cheat death or change what fate has for William. Death comes for us all. She knew about her coven dying of plague, warned them but she still couldn’t save them. I think Lilia has lived a centuries’ long life and has given up trying to warn people of impending doom because she’s never believed or is ‘chased out of town’. It’s why she was a ‘forgotten’ woman who’s abandoned her powers… because they never saved anyone and it only caused her trouble.
One of the best MCU tv episodes ever. Genius nonlinear writing that would make Christopher Nolan burst with pride, and a truly S tier performance by Patti LuPone! I knew all of the odd things that Lilia said and did this season weren’t random. Especially name dropping all the tarot cards and out of nowhere comments during important moments of the show. But I didn’t expect it to be done so beautifully. And my heart broke when she sacrificed herself to save her coven, Agatha better find a way to bring them back at the end of the road.
Exactly. Was about to write that. I also believe, that she didn't interfere because it was his fate. It had to happen this way so Billy had a vessel. Also it was not clear that William is dead. If it was he wouldn't have asked: "Am I Billy or Willam?" William still could be in there. More or less two souls sharing one body or smth. along those lines.
Lilia doesn’t cheat Death… so she couldn’t have saved William even if she wanted to. She read his palm and clearly says there’s a break on his time line. She doesn’t even cheat her own death. She could have gone with the others but stays in the tower/castle to defeat the 7.
Putting the Sigil did not affect the timeline. I don’t think this is an issue. Lilia cannot change the timeline that William will die. She can tell him to take an Uber and he still would have died.
I would love to see Patti LaPone considered for an Emmy for this role. She has grounded this character and made her three dimensional and relatable when Lilia could have been 2 dimensional
It was explained why she didn't tell Billy he would die because she said she told her coven they would die and they died anyway so she gave up on warning people
John, please, can you stop with "she could have prevented William dying" - go back and watch that episode - there's no way he (or she) could have changed anything, there was mayhem because of "anomaly" at the time, there's no way he could "get an uber" or there's no way his parents would do anything else in that situation and it would have always stayed the same. She even said the same in TWO different episodes - every time she warned someone about impending death, nothing would get changed, she couldn't even save her coven when she foresaw they would all die. It was literally all she talked about since the start, including this episode.
8:25 But William isn’t necessarily dead dead. Yes, they implemented that William is not in control of the body but the Teen/Billy/William literally asked Lilia which one he is Billy or William. Lilia saw the teen’s life line to part from each other.
Fate means that no matter how you change the timelines, certain events will always happen. With the sigil, she gave both Billy and Will their best bet.
John, Lilia tried to change the future she saw when her coven all got fevers and died.. it's the reason why she felt depressed and a fraud... Her teacher told her in the episode that her power was to see the future not change the future.. what happened with Billy would have happened anyway.. she saw it. She can't change the future she can only see the future. She can do small things to delay but a major thing like that.. like The rebirth of Billy Maximoff is something she can't change..
John these witches aren’t superheroes Just because she saw death in his future doesn’t mean she should’ve saved him he was meant to die whether Billy took his body or not
Dude, they made it pretty clear that Lilia can't prevent the deaths that she sees. She saw her old coven wiped out by fever & warned them & it still happened. She saw William's life line split from his imminent death & casting the sigil to protect him isn't messing with the timeline. She never saw what Billy Maximoff's ultimate fate was going to be once he inhabited William Kaplan. So there's nothing to interfere with on her end. Maybe that's not word for word what they're trying to say but it's pretty much the gist of it & to obsess over her not preventing her in stopping William getting killed is goofy.
"Death comes for us all" she cant interfere with death. She tried doing it with her previous coven, but they still all died. Lilia can not put a sigil on William/Billy. It would've made his life harder, but it wouldnt have guaranteed death to him. So to say, she interfered, yes, but she saw that she must. It is written on her timeline that she did put a sigil on him.
John you are very wrong. Lilia couldnt save her coven, Billy said skip the details. Tons of other reasons sprinkled throughout the show of why she couldnt tell him to do something else
That tarot game and the way it told the story was beautifully written and I got a little emotional seeing young Lillia happy that she finally figured it out and returned to being a little girl.
I also felt it was the best episode so far. I was worried she would not get proper use of her acting chops after last week. But Ep7 was an Emmy worthy performance.
I'll be the mild hater here. I'm not a fan of the first 6 episodes, yet I'm somehow still watching. So color me surprised when I realized I actually liked this latest episode. Lillia's perspective with her mind jumping around time was fascinating and I liked her sacrifice at the end. I haven't been a fan of the costumes in general this season, but wow, did Agatha look good as the Wicked Witch of the West.
You've missed the point of Lilia and her and powers. She sees things but Doesn't believe she has the ability to change the course of destiny. From her perspective, making his transition easier through the sigil was the best she could do. She couldn't save William anymore than she could save herself during this episode or save her coven when she was younger.
Lilia’s line about needing more time is actually an excellent lgbt theme about coming out when one is ready. I believe this is what they wanted to accomplish with that line. Sometimes it’s not black n white and so literal John.
Been watching john since the AMC days and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE when he has one of the trivial problems with something people call him on his bs.. kinda like now and how everyone is coming at johh for this simply ridiculous take on this lillia and the sigil situation lol I mean its to the point where its essentially "John having an absolutely terrible take about a detail that makes complete sense and then can't let it go???? SHOCKER" he will have this hot streak of being one of my favorite creators on any platform to watch Cuz It's not just this. Also his whole "I hate that they made him billy" like John are you ok? Yes its an agatha story but it's also straight up part 2 in the wandavisiom story which means it's just as much a story about Billy and then also Tommy in vision quest. He does this bs all the time and it's drives me INSANE. Kinda like Colin cowherd in sports for me. Love listening to the guy and has some amazing things to say about his craft but sometimes will come out with some of the most awful takes you'll ever hear
It's almost unique. He can be so smart and one day break down everything i love about something and even add aspects id never appreciated. Then there's days like this. How about that episode though. I'm sure the concept has been done and I just can't remember but they really hit the Lilia concept out of the park. It was so cool to see all of her sentences throughout the series strung together and actually understand her. I love when I'm a huge fan of a side character and later on you realize the creator actually knew how good a thing they had going and go on to really flesh the character out. I've honestly liked her more than agatha.
John forgets that she literally said she ignored her powers because she kept seeing everyone die. A big part of her trial and story line is that you can't cheat death. She even saw hers and went to it willingly. Aaaaaand she's centuries old. It would make no sense for her to try to change his death which is not even her responsibility. This is more of a personal point for John because it makes no sense for her character.
It's was her maestra words. You can't control, only observe. So it's not that Lilia can't intervene. But that intervention is not going to change someone's destiny. With the introduction of death. The MCU has destiny. There are points in a characters "life" that cannot be changed
I don’t agree about it being Lilia’s duty to tell William he was going to die. If you’ve ever been to a psychic they ask what you want to know as Lilia, asked William and he clearly said “I don’t want to know too much.” If you say you don’t want to know too much they take you at your word. I’ve told a psychic’s that I didn’t want to know too much and they’ve listened. And honestly if someone told you that on your drive home you are going to die it wouldn’t be helpful. When it’s your time it’s your time. 🤷🏽♀️
Im like... why we still comparing the penguin with Agatha, is like appple and peaches... doesnt make any sense to try to categorize what is better in that sense... They are both good shows, different appeal and target.
I feel like to John because this type of show is not real or “serious” to him he has to has to keep qualifying it’s success and his enjoyment viewing it by comparing it to a show he has more respect for. It’s weird and it feels a little like “this is a silly girl thing” demeaning energy. No is asking or expecting him to compare it to the Penguin. They’re two different shows and both can be good.
@@CINEMATECO omg yeah. I like shows with multiple female characters, witches, and Kathryn Hahn so this show has been fantastic for me, but every review is like "it's good but it's not Penguin". I don't care if it's not Penguin, this show has a unique vibe and it's really scratched my itch for a witch show, half the time I forget it's even an MCU show.
To campea’s gripe: I think if Lilia had said something like “no matter what I did, you were always fated to die.” Would have solved that issue. That’s a common trope in shows and movies and books that no matter what you do being aware of the future, any action you take will only cause it. It will happen and you cannot change it.
I get what you're saying, but I feel like she did say that across multiple episodes in bits and pieces. Like in the second episode when she was pretending to be a fraud. She said she would try to help, but they would have blamed her and run her out of town.
6:41 "Death comes for us all." You even call the episode that, but you still don't connect the two ideas. 🙂 Lilia can predict death, but she can't actually stop it - it's pretty much the literal point of the episode. When it's your time to die, you'll die. She'd already tried to stop Death once, and failed (her coven). All she could do, was to try to protect Billy for as long as possible, after he possessed William. William was already dead to her. His death was a done deal; she couldn't help him. Billy, however, was going to live and she could help him.
Lilia didn't told William that he was going to die is because it his fate die, and there's nothing she can do to change that. I think she explained it that in divination they can foresee what will happen but they cannot interfere. Lilia did what she did for Billy because she is part of Billy's fate. I know it's hard for some to accept destiny or predestination (and I think John has thoughts about it) , but it's what's being implied in the story.
No John. Now youre just being dumb. The kid (William) was Fated to die and Billy to take over his body. It wouldnt have mattered if they took an Uber , or gone to a McDonalds. The Uber would have crashed. WIlliam would have choked on a frie at McDonalds. Had they made it home he would have slipped on the soap and broken his neck in the shower. Lillia saw all his deaths and knew nothing she could have done would have altered it. Just like the Ancient one in Dr Strange knew it was her time to go, as she couldnt see past a certain point for herself.
Lilia’s role is not to control but to see. so by trying to save William from he’s fate is controlling and she can’t to anything about it anyway. Great episode tho
Lilia, warned her coven that they were going to die and they died anyway. 🤷🏽♀️ When someone’s time is up death will find them no matter what they do to avoid it.
Also John's point on one of the previous episode does make sense about Wanda not being able to find Billy despite being such a powerful witch because of the Sigil. But that can also be explained by the fact that Wanda wasn't looking in our world. She had decided in her mind that her kids from this world were dead and was only looking in other worlds. Might be that even she didn't know that her grief was powerful enough to actually create 2 souls. She was kind of making hasty and extreme decisions, even going as far as to kill another kid (America) which can support her lack of sense while making decisions and acting on them.
My grandmother passed away from dementia some years back,and Lelias experience this episode reminded me of her final days. Her mind would go back and forth from when she was a little girl, then back to her 90s, it was difficult to witness that😢
My grandma was the same way we she died in the 1990s in her 90s. She even started to speak in German to her parents and brothers and sisters . Something she hadn’t done since the start of WW2 and my mom didn’t know she knew as she stopped the she was a young kid. It is almost just like this as they slip into death and in and out of their life
Lilia needed Billy to become Wiccan for Secret Wars. She saw his future and how important he would be, so she allowed William to be sacrificed for the good of the multiverse. A very Dr. Strange decision. No notes
I'm sorry but your point about not telling Billy he's going to die is terrible. She helped him with the sigil but that's nowhere near interfering with death. There's nothing to say if she hadn't warned him he wouldn't have just died anyway (probably in a worse way). She even had a scene where she says she warned her previous coven about them all dying and they still died. I appreciate your show and views but this is just not a good argument or thing to get hung up on.
Exactly
Death is always coming. I thought that was the point of this episode. The Sigil definitely protected Billy from his own mother. Perhaps for the reunion in Billy's future. But yeah death is always coming, comes for us all.
She also says when we first meet her that she was tired of "being kicked out of villages for accurately predicting tragedies.
Right. He didn't understand the theme of the episode at all 😂
She stopped accurately predicting these things as it both changes nothing AND gets her hated & hounded. You imagine he tells hisnoarents at his Barmitzmah that the FT they hired told him he was going to die? At the same time, the Hex is going on down the road? Also, Death comes for us all is the point, AND he needed to change.
Clearly you haven’t been paying attention throughout the series where she keeps saying she can’t prevent deaths
Even if she could, that would be a much larger interference then hiding a boy with a sigal
John I love you but your crazy for this point
To address John’s issue (7:40) if the kid was going to die, he was going to die. She “couldn’t” stop that, she could only help the person who would be living, out.
He's never happy... that was an answer you were looking for, and they didn't leave it open. They answered it, and you aren't happy.
Her coven said something along the lines of, "it's not for you to change." This episode was PERFECTION
John , you missed the point of the episode. Lilia doesn't see death as bad. She sees it as rebirth. Lilia knows she will die when she closes the iron maiden. She accepts death.
Your comment about Lilia not warning William on his impending death is way off! She has stated throughout the Series that she had repeatedly warned others about their demise. They still died. And all she got for her trouble was being run out of town. She couldn’t even save her original Coven. Implying in this Universe, certain aspects of Fate cannot be altered. William was “fated” to die… period. She was as comforting as she could be without freaking him out in telling him to enjoy the here and now. But her loyalty/focus was and had to be on Billy. His spirit, and protecting HIM from any and all magical forces that might want to do him harm until he was old enough and his power had activated so he could protect himself! She did a VERY GOOD DEED!
John, not only has it been stated many many times that Lilia sees death and is unable to stop, it’s a whole aspect of her character and arc. She’s running from her abilities because it causes her distress. She’s did what she actually thought would help in that moment. The sigil also erases seeing his death from her memory, which I am sure felt better in the moment.
The second part is that these are witches and I feel like the show has made it clear that they’re morally gray. They love and feel pain, and have some sort of compass, but they have an allegiance to the craft and their coven that seems to supersede average humans walking around. Billy was always meant to be a part of her coven, not this William kid who she could feel sorry for, but ultimately not feel as strongly tied to.
It was explained that she couldn’t change the outcome for William/Billy in the scene with the older witch. She knew everyone would die in her old coven, even after telling them, it didn’t change anything. So even if she told him, it would still happen
@@spinaruni8002 it was a great episode
@@spinaruni8002 I also think she was tired of seeing death. She says it several times throughout the series and her whole coven dies bcuz no one believes her. I doubt anyone would have believed her at the party
They did explain why she didn’t tell William about the accident in this episode. You just weren’t paying attention when she was learning to read tea leaves. She said her entire coven died from fever and she tried to tell them and it still happened… death comes for us all
I really wish he would wait to give these reviews until Kris Carr was on the show. She not only gives great insight but would absolutely call John out on all these mistakes he’s making about the show.
John remember What If, Doc Strange wanted to save Christine from dying but she always dies. Death will always come
You clearly missed the point of the episode. EVERYONE DIES! It's no one's job to stop death or avoid it in the end death comes for us all. And when it's our time we should embrace it. That was what her teacher was teaching her. Her being able to see the future wasn't to keep people from dying she says this when Lilia says she stopped using her power because it didn't help her save her Coven or her family or anyone she loved. Death is inevitable. If William was meant to die nothing would've stopped that.
Spot on! She learnt the lesson. Plus why would he believe this cooky old witch. Also, a sigil is very different from death.
Throughout several episodes, including this one, Lilia has mentioned seeing death in advance and warning others, only for it to change nothing. She told her coven, yet they still succumbed to fever. This shows that while she has foresight, she can't alter outcomes; even her teacher reminded her that all she can do is observe. She knew she couldn't prevent what would happen to William, so she focused on saving Billy instead. And honestly, I'd never expect an elderly woman to tell a 13-year-old he's going to die.
I think you are missing a point. Lillia's frustration with her whole life is that she cant stop death. The sigil was to give him time to adjust. She tried to stop the death of her coven. All she sees is death.
totally agree
Right. There was no way she could stop it. She couldnt even stop her own death.
John gets hung up on the dumbest stuff sometimes. Then reverts to using a belittling nerd voice when he feels backed into a corner. Lilia’s teacher says the theme of the episode out loud near the climax “your task isn’t to control it’s to see”. She’s a fortune teller not a fortune changer. That’s the tragedy. She sees misery but can’t change what’s she’s seen. Billy was dying no matter what, and no she didn’t “literally sentence Billy to death”. That’s asinine. If anything she did him a favor but not giving him the burden of knowing. All of this was predestined and we know that from the outbursts she had throughout the series. Those would not have happened if the future wasn’t specifically set. Sometimes John just refuses to engage with the show and where it’s at lol
I mean, Lilia's ENTIRE arc was about learning or realizing that her power doesn't grant her the authority, power, or right to alter the future. All she can do is see the future. So William was always going to die, her telling him would not have changed a thing. Death comes for us all, that's the point. Giving him time was the least she could do. And I think she new that was the extent of her ability in the moment.
Wasn’t the point that she can’t change anything? Her mentor literally said her job was to see. All roses lead to death. It was Williams time to die. We also learned this in What If when Dr Strange couldn’t avoid Rachel’s death. You cannot change it.
I felt it was clear when she told her mentor that she tried to warn them about the plague, but they all died anyways. I think this is a perfect explanation, but I guarantee you John will argue it down and explain how he thinks that’s not sufficient L O L. He doesn’t like being wrong. 😂
Using Time in a Bottle at the end was so so good, absolutely fantastic episode
I don’t get why John thinks Lilia not telling William he was going to die was such a major faux pas, when she said she told her coven they were going to die, and they brushed it off. Unlike Thanos, Death is inevitable. She learned this.
As Lilia`s mentor said: Your job is not to control, your job is to see! As we learned, everitime Lilia forsaw death throughout her live (which is most of what she could see, as stated by herself), she was unable to prevent it, even if she tried. I think she learned her lesson. It is a nod toward the Cassandra Complex from Greek mythology.
She did not interfere with the timeline. She literally drifts around in time.. she knew what had to happen. It was written that way.
Lilia told her teacher I warned my coven, and they died anyway. I thought that was the explanation
“Your task is not to control, but to see” Death always comes, and it was coming for William. At least that’s what I think her reason was for not saving William.
I think I agree with everyone that John is too hung up on Lilia not telling Billy that he was going to die. Lilia has learned all her life that she can't and shouldn't try to cheat death. She tried to save her teacher and her coven but they all died anyway. "Death comes for us all" "It's a comfort", "Your task is not to control, but to see". I agree with John that great episodes make previous episodes and the show as a whole stronger. Whereas many MCU and Disney+ projects fail to stick the landing and make the entire thing, including the good parts, seem underwhelming, Agatha is making people want to go back and rewatch the earlier episodes with the new context and character development.
Lilia told her previous coven that they’d die of the flu and they still died. Her mentor says, “Death comes for us all.” She couldn’t stop William’s fate, regardless if she said to go a different route.
exactly, she literally said that all she saw was death so she put away her powers/gift because she couldnt change anything
I think it's pretty obvious why she didn't tell Williams he was going to die, she didn't know how it was going to happen, and you can't prevent fate. Lidia didn't see a car crash. She just saw another soul. That's why she told him to "Enjoy the now. That's the only thing that's certain."
And the sigil didn't change the results of what happened so it didn't interfere with anything. Preventing witches from finding him couldn't be interference because no one knew that he existed, so who's plans does that interfere with?
Lilia said in a previous episode that she became a fraud purposely because she couldn't stop the future from happening. People would die even if she tried to intervene, but they would just blame her. Lilia said she'd get run outta towns every time she tried.
@@jamaalellison3076 yeah, imagine her telling the bah mitzvah boy he was going to die in a few hours, gonna get kicked out of that party really fast!
@Keykatriz That's my issue with John's gripe. What purpose would her warning Billy have served other than to make john feel better? If someone walked up to him and told him that he would die within a few hours in a car accident. How would he react to that news?
I think you're missing it. What happens happens. She only sees what is going to happen. She can't change what she sees. If he went to the golden arches he would only die later
He literally doesn't understand how her powers work.
I think John missed big chunks of this episode especially when she’s told by her mum which that she can’t escape it. Death comes for all. When She told them about the disease that would kill them.
@7:20 chill tf out, John. The reason why she didnt interfere is because her role is to see NOT control. Pay attention.
Lilia literally also says she couldn’t have stopped it anyways..with her witch, her whole village getting sick and dying. She saw it coming, and couldn’t stop it. So even if she tried to stop WILLIAMS DEATH (saying go to McDonald’s, take an uber) it wouldn’t have mattered. William would have gotten into the accident regardless. It was fate. And she prob knew that by her village bring the lesson of ‘even if I try to stop something I know is coming, it won’t change it from happening’
For the next Emmys Shogun and Penguin will win awards but this episode was a master class of writing and editing.
Dude, she literally said she couldn’t change things. She tried to save her master and couldn’t. She saw she couldn’t do a thing about William, so she did about Billy.
John - I hear your concerns about Lilia not trying to save William but they clearly stated that she learned that her original coven would die from a fever and couldn’t change that event. I took that as saying that major events like death could not be changed - at least not by Lilia.
But Lililia not telling William he was going to die is built into who Lilia is in the story. She specifically speaks about trying to tap down her actual power because she previously warned people about when they were going to die and not only did telling them not prevent their deaths (which she's talked about a few times now, including this episode), but she was also blamed for their deaths because she openly predicted them.
Lilia's task is not to control but to watch. She can not change anyone's future.
My thoughts as to why Lilia didn't try to stop what happened to William came from when she was with her mentor. She said that she did tell them about their deaths but it didn't make a difference and they died the way she foresaw anyway. In my mind she would have figured no matter what she said it would happen anyway.
EMMY EMMY EMMY The writers, the actors, costume design. This may be the best Disney+ episode ever.
Lilia might be able to affect the timeline but they strictly establish that she can't prevent death. Apart from William there are 2 instances showing this
1- trying to save Alice by asking her not to save Agatha.
2- she tells her mentor that the whole coven is going to die of fever but they die like that anyway.
So it might be that even if she warned William about his death, it would have happened any other way or something. So she did the next thing she could do with her power and placed the Sigil giving Billy time to adjust.
Addition: Lilia also says that all she sees is death. It can be that she's not just talking about her own death but people's death in general, i.e., everytime she sees someone, she can see how they die. But despite of that she can't do anything to prevent those deaths and feels helpless resulting in her trying to ignore her powers. She still tries to help people in other ways. It's a bit far-fetched but, if true, adds another layer of tragedy to her story.
Another addition (coming back after seeing the last 2 episodes): The beginning of 8th episode supports my theory. Lilia warned Agatha to duck when death called her coward and she dead but then she died moments later in the same scene. Again Lilia failed to prevent someone's death.
Here we go again about John not paying enough attention. Lilia didn't interfere about William's death because he saw what Billy could become. She saw Billy will be something special. If she let William live, Billy will have no vessel he could take or at least what's going to happen will be different. She knows there's something bigger going to happen, and she just cast the sigil so Billy can have time to adjust.
It’s not like Lilia could cheat death or change what fate has for William. Death comes for us all. She knew about her coven dying of plague, warned them but she still couldn’t save them. I think Lilia has lived a centuries’ long life and has given up trying to warn people of impending doom because she’s never believed or is ‘chased out of town’. It’s why she was a ‘forgotten’ woman who’s abandoned her powers… because they never saved anyone and it only caused her trouble.
One of the best MCU tv episodes ever. Genius nonlinear writing that would make Christopher Nolan burst with pride, and a truly S tier performance by Patti LuPone!
I knew all of the odd things that Lilia said and did this season weren’t random. Especially name dropping all the tarot cards and out of nowhere comments during important moments of the show. But I didn’t expect it to be done so beautifully. And my heart broke when she sacrificed herself to save her coven, Agatha better find a way to bring them back at the end of the road.
Death comes for us all...i repeat death comes for us all. You cant save someone from what is inevitable
Paraphrasing the mentor: “ you are not meant to control, you are meant to see.” I don’t think it would have mattered if she said anything to him.
Exactly. Was about to write that. I also believe, that she didn't interfere because it was his fate. It had to happen this way so Billy had a vessel. Also it was not clear that William is dead. If it was he wouldn't have asked: "Am I Billy or Willam?" William still could be in there. More or less two souls sharing one body or smth. along those lines.
@@bulletproof844 in her perspective it had already happened
@@Arezoo298195 yeah! You‘re right.
Lilia doesn’t cheat Death… so she couldn’t have saved William even if she wanted to. She read his palm and clearly says there’s a break on his time line. She doesn’t even cheat her own death. She could have gone with the others but stays in the tower/castle to defeat the 7.
You’re missing the “you can’t control time only see it” lesson in why she did it.
I would argue his death was fated. The outcome was inevitable. She can only read what happens/will happen.
Putting the Sigil did not affect the timeline. I don’t think this is an issue. Lilia cannot change the timeline that William will die. She can tell him to take an Uber and he still would have died.
Death comes for us all so that was why she didn’t interfere. If it’s his time then it was his time. She saw it happening.
Love how John thinks he’s discovered this great big plot hole that isn’t actually a plot hole at all
He’s been insufferable about this show the whole time.
It was a beautifully shot, written, plotted and acted episode. A+ all around.
Truly. One of the best episodes of television I've ever seen. I'm blown away
I would love to see Patti LaPone considered for an Emmy for this role. She has grounded this character and made her three dimensional and relatable when Lilia could have been 2 dimensional
It was explained why she didn't tell Billy he would die because she said she told her coven they would die and they died anyway so she gave up on warning people
John, please, can you stop with "she could have prevented William dying" - go back and watch that episode - there's no way he (or she) could have changed anything, there was mayhem because of "anomaly" at the time, there's no way he could "get an uber" or there's no way his parents would do anything else in that situation and it would have always stayed the same. She even said the same in TWO different episodes - every time she warned someone about impending death, nothing would get changed, she couldn't even save her coven when she foresaw they would all die. It was literally all she talked about since the start, including this episode.
John getting cooked in these comments haha. Rightfully so.
8:25 But William isn’t necessarily dead dead. Yes, they implemented that William is not in control of the body but the Teen/Billy/William literally asked Lilia which one he is Billy or William. Lilia saw the teen’s life line to part from each other.
Fate means that no matter how you change the timelines, certain events will always happen. With the sigil, she gave both Billy and Will their best bet.
John, Lilia tried to change the future she saw when her coven all got fevers and died.. it's the reason why she felt depressed and a fraud... Her teacher told her in the episode that her power was to see the future not change the future.. what happened with Billy would have happened anyway.. she saw it.
She can't change the future she can only see the future.
She can do small things to delay but a major thing like that.. like The rebirth of Billy Maximoff is something she can't change..
She saw it meaning that it was going to happen no matter what..
I don’t think nothing she did would of stop the kid from dying
John these witches aren’t superheroes Just because she saw death in his future doesn’t mean she should’ve saved him he was meant to die whether Billy took his body or not
Dude, they made it pretty clear that Lilia can't prevent the deaths that she sees. She saw her old coven wiped out by fever & warned them & it still happened. She saw William's life line split from his imminent death & casting the sigil to protect him isn't messing with the timeline. She never saw what Billy Maximoff's ultimate fate was going to be once he inhabited William Kaplan. So there's nothing to interfere with on her end. Maybe that's not word for word what they're trying to say but it's pretty much the gist of it & to obsess over her not preventing her in stopping William getting killed is goofy.
Spectacular television, rarely do I feel the desire to go back and start a series from the beginning but I absolutely will be when the show finishes
"Death comes for us all"
she cant interfere with death. She tried doing it with her previous coven, but they still all died.
Lilia can not put a sigil on William/Billy. It would've made his life harder, but it wouldnt have guaranteed death to him. So to say, she interfered, yes, but she saw that she must. It is written on her timeline that she did put a sigil on him.
John's stupidity at this point is beyond repair.
I fell like he doesn’t really pay attention to the show.
John just cant get over it lol
John you are very wrong. Lilia couldnt save her coven, Billy said skip the details. Tons of other reasons sprinkled throughout the show of why she couldnt tell him to do something else
That tarot game and the way it told the story was beautifully written and I got a little emotional seeing young Lillia happy that she finally figured it out and returned to being a little girl.
I also felt it was the best episode so far. I was worried she would not get proper use of her acting chops after last week. But Ep7 was an Emmy worthy performance.
I think you are the only one that has an issue with Lilia not telling William
In the lesson Lilia told her family/coven about the plague and it still happened. From her past experience the outcomes still happen.
I'll be the mild hater here. I'm not a fan of the first 6 episodes, yet I'm somehow still watching. So color me surprised when I realized I actually liked this latest episode. Lillia's perspective with her mind jumping around time was fascinating and I liked her sacrifice at the end. I haven't been a fan of the costumes in general this season, but wow, did Agatha look good as the Wicked Witch of the West.
She couldn’t stop William dying. It was fate - but she could make his journey easier
That episode was pure CINEMA. Loved it.
This latest episode was CINEMA
You've missed the point of Lilia and her and powers. She sees things but Doesn't believe she has the ability to change the course of destiny. From her perspective, making his transition easier through the sigil was the best she could do. She couldn't save William anymore than she could save herself during this episode or save her coven when she was younger.
Man that Badass moment she had at the end where she flipped the tower upside!
Lilia’s line about needing more time is actually an excellent lgbt theme about coming out when one is ready. I believe this is what they wanted to accomplish with that line. Sometimes it’s not black n white and so literal John.
Been watching john since the AMC days and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE when he has one of the trivial problems with something people call him on his bs.. kinda like now and how everyone is coming at johh for this simply ridiculous take on this lillia and the sigil situation lol
I mean its to the point where its essentially "John having an absolutely terrible take about a detail that makes complete sense and then can't let it go???? SHOCKER"
he will have this hot streak of being one of my favorite creators on any platform to watch
Cuz It's not just this. Also his whole "I hate that they made him billy" like John are you ok? Yes its an agatha story but it's also straight up part 2 in the wandavisiom story which means it's just as much a story about Billy and then also Tommy in vision quest. He does this bs all the time and it's drives me INSANE.
Kinda like Colin cowherd in sports for me. Love listening to the guy and has some amazing things to say about his craft but sometimes will come out with some of the most awful takes you'll ever hear
It's almost unique. He can be so smart and one day break down everything i love about something and even add aspects id never appreciated. Then there's days like this. How about that episode though. I'm sure the concept has been done and I just can't remember but they really hit the Lilia concept out of the park. It was so cool to see all of her sentences throughout the series strung together and actually understand her. I love when I'm a huge fan of a side character and later on you realize the creator actually knew how good a thing they had going and go on to really flesh the character out. I've honestly liked her more than agatha.
@@shanetaylor761 couldn't agree more
John forgets that she literally said she ignored her powers because she kept seeing everyone die. A big part of her trial and story line is that you can't cheat death. She even saw hers and went to it willingly. Aaaaaand she's centuries old. It would make no sense for her to try to change his death which is not even her responsibility. This is more of a personal point for John because it makes no sense for her character.
It's was her maestra words. You can't control, only observe. So it's not that Lilia can't intervene. But that intervention is not going to change someone's destiny.
With the introduction of death. The MCU has destiny. There are points in a characters "life" that cannot be changed
I don’t agree about it being Lilia’s duty to tell William he was going to die. If you’ve ever been to a psychic they ask what you want to know as Lilia, asked William and he clearly said “I don’t want to know too much.” If you say you don’t want to know too much they take you at your word. I’ve told a psychic’s that I didn’t want to know too much and they’ve listened.
And honestly if someone told you that on your drive home you are going to die it wouldn’t be helpful. When it’s your time it’s your time. 🤷🏽♀️
Im like... why we still comparing the penguin with Agatha, is like appple and peaches... doesnt make any sense to try to categorize what is better in that sense... They are both good shows, different appeal and target.
I feel like to John because this type of show is not real or “serious” to him he has to has to keep qualifying it’s success and his enjoyment viewing it by comparing it to a show he has more respect for. It’s weird and it feels a little like “this is a silly girl thing” demeaning energy. No is asking or expecting him to compare it to the Penguin. They’re two different shows and both can be good.
@@CINEMATECO omg yeah. I like shows with multiple female characters, witches, and Kathryn Hahn so this show has been fantastic for me, but every review is like "it's good but it's not Penguin". I don't care if it's not Penguin, this show has a unique vibe and it's really scratched my itch for a witch show, half the time I forget it's even an MCU show.
I agree this was the best episode. Lilia's arc was brilliant, and her sacrifice was truly sad
To campea’s gripe: I think if Lilia had said something like “no matter what I did, you were always fated to die.” Would have solved that issue. That’s a common trope in shows and movies and books that no matter what you do being aware of the future, any action you take will only cause it. It will happen and you cannot change it.
I get what you're saying, but I feel like she did say that across multiple episodes in bits and pieces. Like in the second episode when she was pretending to be a fraud. She said she would try to help, but they would have blamed her and run her out of town.
She warned her prev coven about plague and they still died
6:41 "Death comes for us all." You even call the episode that, but you still don't connect the two ideas. 🙂
Lilia can predict death, but she can't actually stop it - it's pretty much the literal point of the episode. When it's your time to die, you'll die. She'd already tried to stop Death once, and failed (her coven). All she could do, was to try to protect Billy for as long as possible, after he possessed William. William was already dead to her. His death was a done deal; she couldn't help him. Billy, however, was going to live and she could help him.
Lilia didn't told William that he was going to die is because it his fate die, and there's nothing she can do to change that. I think she explained it that in divination they can foresee what will happen but they cannot interfere. Lilia did what she did for Billy because she is part of Billy's fate. I know it's hard for some to accept destiny or predestination (and I think John has thoughts about it) , but it's what's being implied in the story.
I had a day off and so rewatched all the episodes again. Wow hindsight is 20/20. The stories are beautifully woven😅😊
No John. Now youre just being dumb. The kid (William) was Fated to die and Billy to take over his body.
It wouldnt have mattered if they took an Uber , or gone to a McDonalds. The Uber would have crashed. WIlliam would have choked on a frie at McDonalds.
Had they made it home he would have slipped on the soap and broken his neck in the shower. Lillia saw all his deaths and knew nothing she could have done would have altered it.
Just like the Ancient one in Dr Strange knew it was her time to go, as she couldnt see past a certain point for herself.
Lilia’s role is not to control but to see. so by trying to save William from he’s fate is controlling and she can’t to anything about it anyway. Great episode tho
It was the first episode that really made me tear up
"Appointment in Samarra". You can't escape Death, even if you know it's coming for you.
Lilia, warned her coven that they were going to die and they died anyway. 🤷🏽♀️ When someone’s time is up death will find them no matter what they do to avoid it.
Also John's point on one of the previous episode does make sense about Wanda not being able to find Billy despite being such a powerful witch because of the Sigil. But that can also be explained by the fact that Wanda wasn't looking in our world. She had decided in her mind that her kids from this world were dead and was only looking in other worlds. Might be that even she didn't know that her grief was powerful enough to actually create 2 souls. She was kind of making hasty and extreme decisions, even going as far as to kill another kid (America) which can support her lack of sense while making decisions and acting on them.
My grandmother passed away from dementia some years back,and Lelias experience this episode reminded me of her final days. Her mind would go back and forth from when she was a little girl, then back to her 90s, it was difficult to witness that😢
My grandma was the same way we she died in the 1990s in her 90s.
She even started to speak in German to her parents and brothers and sisters .
Something she hadn’t done since the start of WW2 and my mom didn’t know she knew as she stopped the she was a young kid.
It is almost just like this as they slip into death and in and out of their life
😢❤
Lilia needed Billy to become Wiccan for Secret Wars. She saw his future and how important he would be, so she allowed William to be sacrificed for the good of the multiverse. A very Dr. Strange decision. No notes
Duane is both correct and takes good looking photos. Never stop going in front of cameras.
Agatha with the Arrival inspired episode . No wonder it was the best episode of the show so far .
I agree with you 100%! This episode single handedly made Lilia the MVP of the series.
This ONE EP is some of the Best TV I have ever seen. Bravo to the writers of this Episode.
Ngl Jac Shaefer really won my trust when it comes to her writing this episode. Give her the keys to a Scarlet Witch movie.