Babbit vs insert bearings in Ford Model A engine
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- Опубліковано 17 бер 2023
- What is the difference between "babbit" and "inserts"? Today, Willie Baechler from Baechler Machine Shop in San Andreas, California tells us. Willie also discusses the pros and cons of each.
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0:00 Intro
0:39 Willie Baechler
11:38 rods
13:00 balancing rods
16:42 crush
18:35 babbit longevity
19:53 insert bearing longevity
20:18 oil changes
21:23 where to get inserts
22:17 engines
24:14 end
“Shows you how much I know about Model T’s!” What!?!? You’re married to one!!
Yes, but I know even less about women!
@@ModelA you know enough to convince a good women to love you.
How did she get her cool nickname???
@@patrickoxford-baker7224 i quite sure now you don't convince women to love you, they either already do or never will..
@@DrTheRich Bless your heart 👍
@patrickoxford-baker7224 Anyone who hangs around my shop ends up with a nickname eventually
Sounds great in theory but... last $4000. insert bearing model A engine we had kept pitching the thrust bearings into the pan. What a hassel, no more of that. Babbit always worked fine for me even well over the 100,000 mile mark.
Cool! I wish I had your luck
I love your machinist guy. Knowledgeable and hilarious. I loved the reaction when he saw the engines in the back of your truck.
He's a hoot!
Guys like Willy are a real treasure! And I really appreciate your sense of humor about what you don't know, Paul... it's refreshing to see a guy like you who knows so much, but still is willing to be humble and learn!
I'm just a regular guy, flaws an all.
He’s a funny guy and really knows his stuff. Great video.
Outstanding content and presentation. I’ve gotten the answer to the Babbitt/insert question that has long hounded me. Gentlemen - thank you both! ~ Chuck
Awesome! Thank you!
Thank you for taking time to educate us along the journey of antique car ownership. It is always interesting and I am so glad that companies are making upgrades. The knowledge of rebuilding babbitt bearings is a rare thing these days. Have a good day and I look forward to the next informational session.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another great video with Willie. I am in the middle of converting my 1929 to insert bearings and WIllie was very kind to take the time to talk to me and my friend about how to properly set up for the line boring. Love to meet you both some day.
Drop by the shop during business hours, or come to a Model A event and say HI!
Thanks again for a great video. Have fun with those engines, Mike
Thanks, Mike,
Fantastic Model T knowledge.
Paul, another great video this morning. Thanks to Willie for his time and sharing his knowledge. My 400A is showing 68,K miles on it, I’ll be dropping the pan and looking inside. I do not want to experience your disaster. Still on the brakes at the moment.
I hope yours is doing better than all of mine.
Excellent video, Paul. I learned a lot as I always do from you! Keep up the good work!
Thank you Matt!
😮prostate
Prostate sickness
Want information on Prostate
Had my Victoria rebuilt by Antique Engine Rebuilder when it was located in Skokie,IL. Rich retired and sold the company to on outfit in Bluffton, IN.
Good to know. Thanks!!
Just a quick stop to say hi and hope all is well my friend! Looks like all is well. Keep up the great work you do week in and week out. Have a wonderful weekend Paul and have a blessed Sunday. God is good! God bless!
God bless you, brother Craig!!
Thanks for another great video. My model A blew a piston last year. Someone installed the center ring upside down. Luckily no damage to the cylinder walls. Notice the babbit bearings had pits in them like you were talking about. Should I change them the car runs fine. Have put about a 1000 miles on it since replacing all the pistons. The oil pan was nice and clean and sent it out to be cleaned just in case. Thanks again
That was very interesting, thanks!
now that's a great video!! Thanks!! I remember my Father telling me about the Heartbreak of finding Babbit in your oil pan
It's a feeling I hope you never experience. I have, and it makes you feel like you got kicked in the giblets.
Excellent video. Insert bearings all the way! Some of this video was a little over my head but if I study it enough then I usually get it after a while. :)
Thanks Hal! The problem is, Willie is trying to dumb it down for me.
Way to go Paul very informatibeth loved it want to see more thank you!
Thanks, will do!
Great bit of insight - also nice to have someone finally giving an answer to what lasts how long.
I also heard that the hardening and fatigue process increases the thicker the babbitt layer is (i.e. the more undersize your crank is ground).
The thicker babbitt acts more like a spring, thus moving about much more and getting brittle much quicker.
That is true
Hey Adrian, if you can figure out how to get that block to Willie's shop, I'd pay half the rebuild cost.
@@ModelA Wow, what a kind offer! I still hope to get the situation back under control, but should I not be able to, I'll definately keep your offer in mind.
Insert bearings are steel with copper plate and sometimes silver plate and babbit last. The copper and silver conduct heat away from the babbit and keep it cool so it won't be deformed. The thickness of plain babbit bearing leads to them heating and the babbit getting soft and failing.
Great video , I'm also am a fan of the insert conversion .
Right on
Very informative. Well done.
Glad it was helpful!
Good info there Paul. Now I know what a babbit bearing is and looks like, always used inserts. You gotta know your stuff when it comes to doing the engine rebuilds or it could be a disaster. Thanks have a great weekend.
Thanks Dan! I switched to all inserts too.
Very interesting Indepth information. I believe Babbit bearings are still used in ships.
I think so too!
Babbit is widely used not only in ships , turbines, mills all heavy industry, oil is the important factor for longevity, oils today a way better than days gone by,
Henry had no idea these cars would be running nearly a century later, but he built them to last in the days of poor oil, poor fuel, and poor maintenance...
In other words, "Built Ford Tough" wasn't just a slogan!
True dat!
great teaching Paul
Thanks Matt!
@@ModelA Paul you are welcom.
rember we are all teachers and students at at all times!
Wow Paul you and this gentleman talking about the engine specifications , connecting rods balancing, main caps and block clearance with the bearing in place made me fill like if was on training again, felt so happy and satisfied with all that technical information, outstanding Paul, that was so neat, congratulations, you bring that information so interesting,wanting to see more, most kind of you for sharing it with us, from the endless summer paradise Puerto Rico Jesus Torres.
That's Willie. He is so knowledgeable! Thank you, my brother.
@@ModelA you guys are great, at my 71 years of age I still get my hands dirty from time to time, but when I was young in my area were very few of those model A Fords, then I spent 30 years working for Cummins Metropower in Newark NJ, mainly on troubleshooting and research and development, I wish to have the opportunity to see those toys in person, perhaps one of these days I would look it up and get close to a place similar to you guys, blessings to you and your love ones, mi agradecimiento Paul, to you and Willie, from the endless summer paradise Puerto Rico Jesus Torres.
It’s getting difficult to find a place to get engine work done in the SF Bay Area. Good information and video.
Willie isn't too far away
That man takes care of his words and how he speaks ,I like him
Loved this! Very informative. A video on different bearing failure modes would be interesting along with what a normal bearing would look like after say 70 to 100K miles should look like. 👍👍👍👍😊. Just a thought.
This one's pretty good. Not specifically Model A, but I reckon 1950s at least
ua-cam.com/video/NDuZ2Uigq5Q/v-deo.html
I don't know who could make such a video.
@@ModelA If you can, find photos on the internet of a model A or T with babbit bearings and one from a regular bearing needing to be rebuilt and compare the differences, and look at the car community on YT for guys that do rebuilds, also check out Coldwarmotors and Strong's garage for videos of Scott's model T and other old cars being rebuilt, including his work on repairing the 1937 Chevy coupe he bought and Matt Strong of Strong's garage and his employee Jim from Coldwarmotors fame as they work on cars from the 1900's to say, the 1950's in a vintage garage where they replicate old ways of doing stuff, including a machine to redo baabbit bearings for research.
So educational, even if I'll never have a Model A. I would love one though!
Love your videos. Of the more modern engines, my favourites are the B18 and B20 Volvos, and in my dream the similar era straight six 3 litre types. I love the idea in those that the cam shaft is gear driven rather than chain or belt driven.
Best wishes from George
Thank you George!
@@ModelA Dear Paul,
What I love about rugged and actually well engineered older style engines, is that though it requires an expert to work on them properly, for crank-work and so on, the concepts of design can be understood by anyone who can fix a Briggs and Stratton [side-valve] lawn mower engine.
To my mind the modern computer regulated engines with variable valve timing and direct acting overhead cams are completely beyond even competent home working. I have set tappets on a Volvo B20 in a 1971 Volvo 145. All you needed was the right sized spanner, a screw driver, a set of feeler gauges, and ability to add up to nine!
Same with old coil and points ignitions. Easy without a degree in computers!
Best wishes from George
You're right!!
As always, love the videos.
I may have missed this, but what exactly needs to be done to go to inserts? Do they have to machine the block and cap to accept the locating tab?
Thanks
Maxhine the block and caps. No biggie.
Another wonderful video for a newbie Model A guy! THANK YOU!!! I do have a question on your video showing top material replacement - what kind of material do you use, is it a vinyl available at fabric stores? I do snowmobile seat covers and use the Artic minus 40 rated stuff for that.
Hi Bob. Thank YOU! Yes, that is a vinyl material, and it has a specific grain to it to match the material Model As had when new. Most of the Model A parts places sell it.
If a person is converting from babbit mains and rods to shells, do you file a place in the bearing seat for the tang? I have seen the tangs on the bearing shells for my 52 Pontiac flathead and assume it is a similar type of tang?
Yes
With aircraft engines we cut open the oil filter ( if you have one ) and examine it for metal. Could also take a sample of oil when changing
Oh yes! I forgot to mention. I used to be a pilot and did my own maintenance.
Well, I certainly learned some things today! The fact that babbitt bearings work harden is new to me, but makes perfect sense. Thanks, swami Paul! Looks like I will be fore warned and fore armed concerning babbitt bearings! Yeah, I like things to Last! Oh, any updates planned on the Burtz Block? Or did I miss it?
And thanks again for the efforts to edumacate us rubes!
You're welcome, Forbes! Tim down at Hanford Machine took over the Burtz blocks and finished them. One is in his car, the other in a customer's car.
My Model A has 62000 miles on her (original) Should I remove the engine and drive to California to have the bearings done by your friend or do you know of someone who could do them as well as he does in the eastern part of the country I live north of Toronto Canada? I’m in Florida for the winter and next one when I could bring the engine down with me Appreciate and suggestions
PS replaced the timing gear and cleaned oil pump strainer doesn’t have external oil filter Going to put one on when I get back home this year
Very informative.
I always thought there was lead in babbet
Educate me! Thanks.
Mostly tin
There is a species of (cheaper) lead-based “Babbitt”.
It is said to be less good (for engines) than the tin-based kind.
Hi Paul, Just a heads-up on the insert main bearings you are showing. They are made available by Antique Engine Rebuilding (AER) who contracts with a manufacturer for their production. The bearings you and Willie show are actually bearing grade aluminum adhered to steel shells. They do not have any Babbitt on the surface. When AER first brought the bearing shells to market, the first couple production runs of bearings had Babbitt as the final surface. It has been at least 12 - 13 years since the Babbitt surfaced bearing inserts were available. Good video. Thanks Dave @ Durable Performance, Minnesota
Ahha!! Thank you so much for the correction!
Beautiful
Por favor activar subtitulos en español a vuestros videos, somos muchos seguidores de habla hispana. Saludos cordiales desde Chile.
Thank you for this discussion. Babbitt bearings have poor tolerance to impact loads, as you discovered at 68000 miles. The thin layer on the insert greatly improves the tolerance. Engineering manager Pioneer Motor[car] Bearing.
Good info. Thank you!
I know a guy who put in roller bearings and his HP increased markedly.
A few rolling shots of any of your As (Gandalf) up around a Alpine lake, your introduction followed by a invitation to join the you over on the channel for the full video and of course the great music you use would make a very enticing short.
UA-cam keeps pushing creators to make "shorts". I am still trying to figure it out. Technology is my kryptonite! hahaa
Thank you for sharing. I recently bought a 1927 Essex super six with a rather noisy knocking sound. I need contact info for a shop that will pour babbit or modify for insert bearings. I'm in New Mexico.
don't know of any shops in NM. But people send stuff to Willie from other states all the time. Email him at baechlermachine at hotkail.com
Thank you. So, an indoor freeflight guy too?? What don't you do?? Spent a few years casting bullets and it sure does look a lot like the bearings in a Model A. Mine is leaking a lot from the rear main and I'm afraid will need some work soon. Insert bearings seem to be the way to go so my kids don't have to rebuild it in their lifetime when I'm gone and they are the caretakers.
I cast bullets all the time. Been reloading for decades.
@@ModelA I knew you were my kind of people.
God fearing, flag waiving American!
I didn't know you flew indoor free flight. Hope to see you at Johnson City this year
Yessir!! I tried A-6 but cannot break 4 minutes, so went back to clear film.
Im about to become an owner of a Model A that has been in the family for decades…how would i find a qualified machine shop in western PA that would have the knowledge to do the insert bearings on such a motor? Thanks for any help!!!
Wow. Yea I'd say insert is good insurance of a long lasting motor. Seems like babbitt is like running on borrowed time. Plus for how much an engine rebuild is it's a safe and long lasting decision. I'd rather see that all day than a hot rodded A. Ugh when I see that I feel like Henry Ford is spinning like a rotisserie chicken in his grave. Again awesome video paul.
When is your video on shocks coming out? I need to rebuild my. Thanks
Still in production. Sorry! Weather has been beating us up.
@@ModelA awesome can't wait!
Good program. Curious, a while back you mentioned that you bought the new model a block but you said that additional work was necessary. Can you tell me what you had to do?
I gave them back and they had a shop who is now specializing in those motors finish them.
@@ModelA wow. So what do you think? Sounds a bit dicey.
I don't think so. Someone with more experience than me would be just fine putting those together.
That's good to hear. Can you tell me what needed to be done? I appreciate your input. Thank you.
The guy with the machine shop put it all over Facebook, you can follow his journey there. I just wasn't the guy.
Thanks Paul for taking us to Baechler's -- I wish we could get Adrian's block to them ( Astra-Werke ) He's having a real hard time finding a Machine Shop to do his block -- to inserts ---- Learned a few things today -- I use to help our Welder when ever a babbit job would need to be done -- this would be for machinery not on cars -- same principal --- Hope Adrian will find a shop to do his block -- babbit to inserts -- One big thing you said today -- But needs more info on --- LOCATION AND WHAT THIS DIAMOND looks like -- is if one needs another block --- Look for this Diamond? ------ Thank You for Sharing ----- Rodney
I ever thought of doing a video on diamond blocks. You think that would be interesting enough for a whole video? Maybe I should?
Someone, somewhere must have an engine ready to install for Adrian to get him back in his A!
@@dickdaley9059 If his car was sitting in my shop right now, it would have a rebuilt engine n it before lunchtime.
Muy bueno,pero favor pueden activar la opción subtitulos, traducción,en mi caso soy argentino y somos muchos los que tenemos modelos A & T, gracias
I'm building my first A engine, I'm contemplating the idea of inserts main, I've been looking up but couldn't find anywhere if when using inserts you still need to use the caps shims or not?
Does anybody knows?
7:07 "Shows you what I know about model-T's."
Paul it's obvious that you know and love Tina very well.
Hahaa! Yes, but I still have no clue how women work.
In addition to Babbitt beating out from impact loads, the thick layer of bearing material isn’t great at conducting heat into the block. Babbitt was fine for low-speed engines, but as RPM ranges (and power) increased, Babbitt bearings were more likely to “burn out.” Steel-backed precision inserts conduct heat out of the journal far better because the Babbitt layer is so thin. They also stand a better chance of operating with full-film lubrication because of their precision, unlike hand scraped or fitted poured Babbitt. That also reduces heat buildup.
I recall my dad, born in 1921 and in the automotive business all his life, talking about engines being utterly worn out at 20,000 miles.
What would you guess is the cruising RPM and redline RPM of a Ford Model A?
I will be have a engine rebbited what iam wondering is when it's poured I see some that pinning the babbit then boreing it,,,is that better or just have it poured then bored?
Pinned babbit is normal.
Paul, I was offended “again” by Willies comments regarding your engine components after they were unloaded. The nerve of this man!!!! 😉 24:37
Thanks for another nice video and keep them coming!!
Hahaa! Willie is always joking with me. Known this man for decades.
Just in case you didn’t know I was joking, I was joking but don’t tell Willie. 😉
I took it as joking. I don't think Willie takes anything too seriously
I have been trying to get a straight answer on the babit or bearing question for a while now. Im interested in having this machine shop rebuild my engine. Can I get a website or phone by chance?
He asked me not to publish his phone number. Search his shop in Google and it should pop right up
What is involved in adding engine oil filtration??
Buy the kit, bolt it on. Done.
good info! I learned something new. Now, nap time! :P
How was your nap?
@@ModelAfantastic. I hope you and Tina are doing well.
A video just for Adrian! 🙂
Ha! Well, this was recorded and edited and scheduled way before he published his. Just a coincidence.
good to see the Radio Engineering Truck
It seems to be the one constant in my life.
cool
Great. I have 2 questions.1) How does an oil filter work if the engine has no oil pump ? (splash oiling) 2) Is that later version of the engine not pressure oiling with oil pump (model C engine)? Please make a video on that subject, The model C engine with pressure oiling.
Model A motors have an oil pump.
Full-flow filtering routes all of the oil through the filter, but some pass but *part* of the oil, so called bypass filtration…
The middle of 1936 is when Ford started using insert berings.
Good info. Thank you!
What will be the cost to switch to inserts. How much will the machining cost be? Adrian seems to be in a jam. Maybe a go fund me account could help get him a block to get him back on the road.
I will let you know.
How do the inserts stay in
They "crush" in to the seats and caps. That's why tolerances are critical.
What could you expect to pay to swap out from all Babbitt to inserts?
Few hundred
Anybody does this anymore in Oregon
I only know of Ron's Machine Shop doing it in Ohio.
ronsmachineshop.com/Home.html
😂Thumbnail looks like you two was passing the "peace pipe".
Diosacuba
Opening line... A little chuckle ... the "Model 'A' motor " ... motors are electric. Engines are internal combustion [except steam locomotives] ... so "Model 'A' engine".
Side Bar: R/C model airplane engines, like the 0.90 cuin Rossi's were ABC Aluminum-Brass-Chrome good for 14,000+ rpm at almost one horsepower. Chrome made it hard and wear resistant.
Piston so tight in the bore it almost can't be turned over by hand until broke in.
Work hardened and splattered at 68,000 miles ... like work hardened rail road tracks? Add another 10 ton to each car on a 100 car coal train and the rails will fracture and cause a derailment.
motor
mō′tər
noun
Something, such as a machine or an engine.
A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
Rossi didn't do ABC motors. They did ABN. Aluminum piston in a Nickel plated Brass sleeve. I am a Rossi motor nerd.
I guess I’m going insert lol
Inserts are steel backed Babbitt bearings, you can’t get away from Babbitt, no replacement, why would you even want to?
Because 1/4" thick soft babbit fails way too easily. Inserts have the steel shell for strength.
Who poor babbitt anymore
Very few in the US.
uh..uh...uh.... Somebody needs a script.
With A script you don't get to hear a really neat guy access stored information from what sounds like a brilliant mind.
He isn't a polished TV personality, he's a brilliant machinist with decades of experience building Model A engines.
You should definitely edit out the uhms and ahhs of your expert guest. This is just painful to watch. I'd much rather have it a bit choppy as you fudge together the sentences than have each sentence be three times as long as he thinks about what word to use. This is just hard to watch and feels wildly unprepared. I have no doubt that he knows what he is talking about, but all the pauses make it seem like he's just making this up on the spot.
You can get information from Google, you need to listen to people to gain the knowledge of experience. Instant gratification is not always what it's cracked up to be. This man obviously knows what he is talking about.
@HKlink Willie is fighting cancer and has a little speech lag from the treatments. He is my long-time friend and I am proud of him and his work ethic, even when he doesn't feel up to being on camera!