In the United States you have trains trams and subways there but not like in the Netherlands but still have trains in the Netherlands we have like trains everywhere But i gonna be honest for once in the Netherlands we are depended on public transportation. But United States should not imitate the Netherlands because in the United States the weather is very unpredictable like tornadoes and tsunami‘s and if there are trains and other transport vehicles get hit it will cost you a lot of money and a lot of work to repair it and the infrastructure would be chaotic. In the Netherlands we weather is standard but we need country and places where unpredictable weather so that we can do our research and understand how the world works. If we have tornadoes and tsunami’s are infrastructure will be totally broken and that is the downside for being dependent on public transportation You should be happy with what you have at least your government knows what there are doing.
@@mandelni hé landsgenoot, zo te horen weet jij dus helemaal niks over Amerika. Dit land is groter dan heel Europa, denk je nou werkelijk dat er overal tornado’s en tsunami’s zijn? En denk je dat die natuurrampen de autowegen met rust laten? Wat een bizarre opmerking 😅
I commute on the Den Haag - Eindhoven line and although the TRAXX locomotives do have a lot of technical issues and need to be replaced, the ICR coaches are great from a passenger perspective. The seats are very comfortable, the ride quality is incredibly smooth and the cabin is extremely quiet. I hope the ICNG will be able to match that performance. The TRAXX trains have an incredibe power-to-weight ratio, with two 7500hp locomotives and 7 to 9 single-deck coaches. They can accelerate well at high speeds, but since they only have 8 powered axles per train, their acceleration from a standstill isn't that remarkable. The ICNG probably won't have as much total power, but given that it will have 14 powered axles for an equivalently sized train (5-car ICNG + 8-car ICNG) I suspect it will have better acceleration overall. In any case, I can't wait for the ICNG to enter service. It feels very odd as a passenger when the train is only going 160 km/h on the 300 km/h line because the curves are banked too steeply for that speed. 200 km/h will be pretty close to the equilibrium point where you'd feel no lateral G force at all, which will be very cool to experience.
I used to take that train a lot too! I lived in Leiden but went to school in Rotterdam Alexander. I would make it a point to take a different route home than I had taken in the morning (I could also take the R-net sprinter via Gouda which was a favorite of mine). I love the refurbished ICRs. The colorful design is so fun. And nothing beats the noise of a TRAXX accelerating. I hope NS keeps a few. I know they’re leased, but I wish someday I could take my grandkids to the Spoorwegmuseum and show it to them in yellow and blue.
Slight correction, departure from standstill on traxx isn’t slow because of the amount of powers axles. It is slow due the use of the AFB speed system, this does not only act as a cruise control (max limiter) but also as a traction curve addition, this is primarily for comfort, as allowing drivers to speed up as fast as they can, is gonna make them do it.. and full speed without restriction on a double traxx set is insane. Therefore the use of AFB limiters. As for ICNG acceleration, what I’ve gathered from colleagues is that it’s very fast. But just as most of the current modern light trainsets, this fast acceleration isn’t without downsides, due to the designs used nowadays, slippage and gliding is also quite noticeable, just like SNG or FLIRT. And to add to that, NS will probably add a traction curve max limit to their trains, since there is too much power available for the driver, again just like SNG and FLIRT.
The ICRm ( m = modernized ) are not that quiet. Remember these coaches are from the '80's. Although they are refurbished/modernized they are still old. Hence the max speed of 160 kph. It was simply too expensive to put other bogies under them to allow a higher maximum speed. And except for the HSL-Zuid/South ( like there is a HSL-Noord/North or HSL-Oost/East, huhhuh, noooooo ) there are no other tracks to use 200 kph. So why bother in the first place.
Thank you for this interesting but depressing story ! N.S could have bought several existing designs for high speed service, like a shortened SNCF TGV, or one of many current designs from Siemens. One can only hope the ICNG will be reliable !
The ICNG is from Alstom, from an existing family so should have higher chances ICNG was needed anyways because the ICMMs are at the end of their lifespan and this is the replacement for the longer distance commuters
Unfortunately, I see very little possibility that the netherlands is going to adapt the rest of their train network to 25kvac... The existing overhead lines are 1.5kvdc.
I suspect the big reason for NS not buying dedicated high speed trains like an Alstom TGV ot Siemens Velaro is that they are simply not suited for the type of services NS wants of the ICNG. While a high speed train is well suited for the HSL South, it isn't suited for the commuterlike services to other places, with more frequent stops, lower speeds and the quicker boarding times.
200km/h is a bit of an anticlimax, but at least the route Amsterdam - Brussel is so short, that 200 or 250km/h doesn't make a huge difference. It would, however, be easier for the operator to schedule trains if they all were able to go at the same 250 or 300km/h.
one thing to add tough is that those trains accelerate like crazy, and with the short distances that is a huge advantage (schiphol-rotterdam they are as fast as the thalys).
@@Thom-TRA true, to be honest they are, and I would not have minded a fancier "high speed" train desing. But in a practical sense, if you want to go faster then 200-250km/h you need specialized trains which accelerate slowly and are a lot more expensive to maintain. So you end up with a train which does the distance in a similar time, but costs a lot more, so i can understand their decision.
@@roger0929 I know that. I was one of those commuters for many years. There are long distance trains too and they need appropriate stock for those services. I’m not convinced ICNG is.
@@Thom-TRA They're closely related to the new ETR 103/104 "Pop", also built by Alstom and part of the Stream family, that are being introduced in Italy to run low-capacity regional services. The front looks the same, but the NS trains have smaller windows and different and fewer doors, as well as an higher top speed. The sound is also really similar.
The singing of this train reminds me of the time the then-new double deck intercity trains were introduced. They also used to produce this noise. I think they managed to reduce it for these sets later on.
Neat and interesting video, Thom! Last summer I had a stopover at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport while traveling from Detroit to Dubai. The Dutch are very nice and welcoming people, and the country looks absolutely beautiful (even if I only got to see it from the air)! I'd love to do a proper trip to the Netherlands sometime and experience what it has to offer... and also ride some trains, of course!
Hey Thom, very interesting video. 👍 The Fyra was the last train where NS had a big impact on the design. It's a shame that Ansaldo Breda was so bad at the time, no money to develop things properly. Nowadays Hitachi is the owner and they produce many good high speed trains. The new ICNG is an off the shelf product with a little bit of NS sauce on it. Greatings, Ralf
The V250, after years of storage, were recently bought by Trenitalia, the main Italian railway operator, which refurbrished them and called them ETR700. Nowdays they're running without any major issues (at least to my knowledge) on the Italian network. They're probably not the best in the Italian high-speed fleet, however the more recent and flaghship model ETR1000, was designed by the very same AnsaldoBreda!
@@LucaPasini2 I would like to ride the Italian “Fyra” someday. I moved to the Netherlands the summer after they were suspended, so I caught all the political drama, but I was never able to ride them!
@@Thom-TRA The purchase of those trains, that at the time had been mothballed in some yard for a long time, by Trenitalia didn't come without controversies, as the dispute with NS was well known, but in the end they got a fleet of "new" trains just having to pay for the refurbrishment costs, it was a dangerous bet and they probably won it. If you think about how Italy was politically and economically back when the Fyra were designed and built, you'll realize that some flawed trains were just the tip of the iceberg! AnsaldoBreda is also a strange company because during those years they made some terrible products but also some highly innovative and succesful ones, like the automated metro standard used in Copenhagen and many other cities.
@@LucaPasini2 yeah, Italy’s politics were… interesting to say the least. Hope they don’t go back to that, it would be a shame. Though maybe some other country would welcome a free stolen train 😂
the fyra and the ic4 stories kinda hurt me because Ansaldo Breda is the one that made the Majestic ETR500 Frecciarossa trains which are one of the best in the world, even now a lot of people prefer the ETR500 to the ETR1000 for its comfort, not the ETR100 is a bad train obviously that is also made by Ansaldo Breda, they made a lot of awesome trains but these 2 sets, they ruined their reputation :(
Thanks for the video Thom. I've learnt something new about the railways in the Netherlands. I did not even know about the voltage change on the HSL or the extra supplement on the Intercity Direct Service using the HSL. I've travelled on the direct London to Amsterdam Eurostar myself. I like the look of the new stock coming into service this year. Hopefully it 'll decrease journey times. :-)
There’s no extra supplement if you’re traveling internationally! Glad you enjoyed the video. It sounds like you have some HSR drama on your side of the pond too…
As someone who has travelled in quite a few European countries by train (Italy excluded), the service NS offers by far has been the best - this includes reliability, time, cleaness, etc. The only things which need improving overall are pricing (duh) and making them bigger (which with the current shortage of workers is not happening any time soon).
Once you live in the Netherlands for a few years you may change your mind on the reliability and time parts… better than most European countries but definitely not perfect. The amount of times I was late to school…
Doesn’t take away the fact that the V250 was a shit train from the get go. It took the Italians a full extra year to get those trains ready for daily use
I saw a video of a dutch vlogger. And it did not run reliably at all. It could not drive faster than 140kmh without problems and could not use the high speed line. The finishing was not ok either (electric wires in sight a.o.).
@@lws7394 The ETR700 run regularly on high-speed lines in Italy, maybe the service this guy was mentioning simply didn't travel on such lines for the whole trip! They're maybe worse than the ETR500 or ETR1000, but aren't known to be particularly unreliable
I want to ride it in Italy for the experience. I moved to the Netherlands summer of 2013, right after this all happened. I caught all the political drama, but never managed to ride the trains themselves!
5:31 als Dordtenaar kan ik zeggen: Dordrecht is echt genaaid met de komst van de HSL. We zijn de Benelux trein kwijt geraakt maar ook de IC tussen Den Haag en Eindhoven (- Venlo). De oude ICRm’s zijn super comfortabel trouwens. Gebouwd met Y32 bogies net zoals de Corailrijtuigen van de SNCF!
The Stadler SMILE (SBB Giruno) would be the perfect Fyra replacement. Too bad that it was only developed several years later. Its an amazing train to ride in my opinion.
@@Thom-TRA (Made a lil typo and meant country of origin, anyways) I'm happy to hear that :) Even though I have lived in Denmark for a short period of time, and have never ridden these trains, I understand their failure (Like with their coupling "mouth" having the ability to open and close, which later failed). I am currently living in Luxembourg, and I am patiently waiting for CFLs new coradia stream HC sets.
I love the sound of the ICNG's. The new super energy efficient electric / traction systems in recent trains have very cool sounds. It's a bit loud but really fun.
@@Thom-TRA Really? The most recent Siemens ICE or Alstom TGV M, Bombardier Regio 2N and others also have strong harmonics at acceleration, each with slightly different notes and strength. Apparently it's due to the new more efficient electric / traction chain and varies according to electrification voltage, acceleration strength but also temperature. I find it much better than the whining / whistling sound of some trains, usually metro trains, like on the fairly recent trains of New York subway or Paris metro MF01 trains (though the latest trains in Paris, the MP14, have great harmonics).
Between 1979 and 1981 I travelled from Leiden to Bruxelles-Midi (south station) with the Benelux train. Departure 18:02, arrival 20:10. Almost never a delay. We are more than 40 years later now, not sure the service is better or faster.
A great video Thom, interspersed with your own style of sarcasm, where needed. The different voltages definitely create headaches. Did you know that in 10 years time all international trains will terminate at Amsterdam Zuid? ProRail will have to build an immigration building for the Eurostar passengers travelling to London. All passengers will be able to transfer to the Amsterdam metro for their onward journeys.
I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I like the ICNG, just wishing things would go more smoothly. And they wouldn’t sound so terrible 😂 I knew about the Zuid plans! I’m actually supporting them, I think the connectivity with the NZL will serve tourists and being in the Zuidas will be good for business travelers. But I know that’s a very unpopular opinion… 😅
@@EchtEenMilan and the center is more easily accessible by metro. The transfer is easy at Zuid, and the NZ Lijn offers direct access to more destinations. You’re also not considering the fact that many tourists don’t stay in the center, and you’re assuming that all travelers are tourists. That’s just not true, there are many business travelers. That share will grow even more if it is relocated to Zuid.
Don't forget sometimes top speed on existing vehicles will be raised by regulators. Usually train-sets are more speedy as they legally can run. Look at the ICE 4. Originally the top speed was 250 kph (155 mph), it got raised to 265 kph (165 mph). Maybe in two years the ICNG will be allowed to run at 220 kph (which is still 10% more). And the next generation a decade down the line will than be 270 kph or something.
You mean the first stops in Germany are Oberhausen & Duisburg Hbf because that station is actually the start of Hollandstrecke Duisburg Oberhausen Arnhem Utrecht
yep, they already owned and had experience with the ICE 3M, they should've gotten more of those instead, and in Fyra colours it would look sexy as fuck
Can't help but wonder whether these trains have enough seats. It looks like a Sprinter layout inside which means very few actual seats per coach. They shouldve just bought a couple TGV's and be done with it.
I honestly don't think it'll be a problem. I think it only looks like there are few sears because each coach is shorter, due to most sharing bogies with the next coach in the train set. Besides the extra accessibility should be a standard already in 2023, including fir high speed trains, just look at Talgos trains.
Considering they're nationally replacing the single level ICMM it will be fine And yeah we wish Belgium and the Netherlands has just gotten some euroduplexes back in 2010, but alas not enough funding, from day 1 NS was wanting proper high speed service but only had budget for +-200 kph trains and thought they got exceedingly lucky with 250 kph stock even if we had gotten euroduplexes we likely also would've had ICNGs
Hi Thom - thanks for the video, a very interesting summary of the Fyra era and its legacy. My first international train trip was London to Arnhem via Roosendaal including the Beneluxtrein so have been watching from a distance. I used the route last summer to reach Nijmegen which was a bit of a drama as the one of the Traxx was defective and the Breda stop was cancelled. Hope the new timetable and trains provide an more robust service. Although seems future trips to Nijmegen will be on the Belgian alternative service, interested to see what is provided to allow connections to the East of the Netherlands via Breda .
But don't forget: There are HOURLY Thalys trains A'dam Centraal and Bruxelles Midi with less than 2 hrs travel time between the capitals - so the ICNG is not the premium product on that line, but the workhorse for the "inbetween" and probably more cost aware or OV chipkaart travellers.
When did I say it was the premium? Thalys is very expensive and there should be a high quality high speed product for regular budgets. 14 years is very late. You also can’t use your OV chipkaart to Belgium.
I see the new ICGN set almost daily on my way to school (leiden to Rotterdam) and have seen them parked at the basically unused platform at Schiedam Centrum. They look absolutely amazing and I can't wait until I finally get to frickin ride jt
Almost comical with how similar the history of the Danish and Dutch high speed train is. Getting screwed over by Ansaldo Breda trying to develop a new train which just did not work. The Netherlands probably learned from Denmark's mistakes and were way faster to back out of the contract and demanding a refund where as the Danish politicians kept pumping money into the project hoping it would eventually work. But as you pointed out, the trains getting replaced by the new Alstom trains are not the 30+ year old IC3 trains. It is the 15 year old IC4 train from Ansaldo Breda. As a consequense of this, both NS and DSB those to buy an already working and established platform for their next gen of IC-trains. Both railway operators ending up choosing the Alstom Coradia Stream in hopes that it will finally elevate the InterCity/High Speed service to a better level Great video, just subbed :D
In late 2019 I flew over from the U.S. and took the train from Schiphol to Tilburg and back for a concert, and changed trains at Breda. Now I know how to pronounce "Breda." :)
From the photo at 12:05 one can clearly see panel gaps en misalignments in de top lef corner of the front end af the train. If they even cannot align panels or do not care for this, what else is there that we do not see?
I honestly always thought that the name fyra was another one of these randomly thought up words, like how a marketing firm came up with "polare" for a book store conglomerate, that... Needless to say; burned out faster than a wildfire in a woodfactory... -.-' Also; they finally got into service on April 19th
Right now the Albatros trains (They are called ETR700) operate on the Italian railways with Trenitalia and also travel on high speed. Where I come from it says: Nu sputà n'cielo che 'n facc te torna. Traslation: Don't spit in the sky, it will fall on your face.
They could just have bought some siemens velaro's, those are one of the most popular high speed units and just paint it in NS livery, it will look amazing
@@hartstukken no, the HSL-Zuid has an minimum 220 km/h design speed. So driving 160 km/h for any longer isn't an option. Because of the 160 km/h speed the tracks of HSL-Zuid will need to be replaced 5 years earlier.
A velaro would look good in NS colors! Or a Stadler SMILE… I’m just not a huge fan of the exterior look of Alstom trains, but the Coradia Stream in Germany and Denmark will look much better in my opinion!
@@Thom-TRA I have talked alot about the Stadler smile with my friends about trains that would have been better then the ICNG as an replacement. The Stadler smile would have been alot better. The train would also possibly have an Kiosk/Restaurant car. Atleast a kiosk car is better then no food car. Especially on an 2:20 hour ride I would atleast expect catering.
I am surprised, but I thought the Fyra trains not even entered normal service, because that loss of a piece of metal happened on one of the testdrive, but it seems that my memory has deceived me. By the way, those former Fyra trains from Ansaldo Breda are now running in Italy normal services. I am convinced the Fyra EMU's could have been fixed. Buy anyway were are now about to get the ICNG. I can tell you, that the ICNG does the voltage change, and change from and to ETCS completely automatically. So I was told by traindriver Stefan, how posts video's of him driving trains, and recently he posted two test rides with the ICNG from Amsterdam to Breda and back, over the HSL.
really loved the video but you forgot to mention that in other country's the icng is already running and from what i heard it is one of the most decent middle high speed trains you can have there reliable en sturdy an easy to handle
yea, you can blame the NS and Dutch government for cost cutting and chosing Ansaldo Breda instead of going with something known and what we already own (*cough* ICE 3M *cough*) Kinda a shame we will never see the Fyra and it's paint scheme again.. I loved the livery and would've loved it to see it on the ICE 3M or the ICNG if possible, but it won't happen sadly Also SNG means "Sprinter New Generation" lol
I like the ICE, but you have to remember, the faster a train’s top speed, the more expensive it becomes. NS didn’t need something that could go 320 km/h, so that’s probably why they didn’t order ICEs or TGVs.
"Fyra a Swedish name for a Dutch Train", yep definitely smoking something when they thought of that. Edit: I had to correct some Text can I get a heart again? Sorry 😆
I find it peculiar that we in Denmark are basically following NS's footsteps. We also got he Ansaldo Breda trains with the IC4 you mentioned in the video. Absolute disasters. And what are we getting? Alstom coradia streams! What does however stink a little more is that there have been plans for 250km/h trains here in Denmark and a plan for a Swiss style timetable that with investment into speed upgrades and new lines would allow for each city pair in the country to be just one hour apart from eachother. However with the recent election, the majority in favour of the plan was lost and one of the most critical infrastructure projects for it were cancelled on the spot. Still even with the current investments, the trains frim Copenhagen to the likes of Aarhus are still gonna be close to half an hour faster than they are today by thr end of the decade, and up to 45 min faster to Aalborg.
The Danish sets have a much cooler design than the Dutch ones in my opinion! Sorry to hear about the political change, hoping you will still have an amazing network. I enjoyed my time in Denmark.
Ik ben het totaal niet met je eens over de SNG. slechte treinbouwer en slechte qualitijd treinen/trams. ICNG is wel prima. Maar tis geen HSL trein. NS zou bij Stadler de Giruno ( RABe 501 ) Treinsetten moeten kopen voor t echte HSL werk. dan heb je betrouwbare barrierevrije treinen.
Tja je hebt nou eenmaal mensen die hun mening gewoon klakkeloos overnemen van anderen op het internet. CAF bouwt wereldwijd betrouwbare treinen, en SNG heeft nauwelijks kinderziektes gehad bij de start. NS heeft een vervolg bestelling voor SNG en een bestelling DDNG gedaan bij CAF. Dat betekent dat ze naar tevredenheid presteren (SLT heeft nooit een vervolg bestelling gekregen). Hun indienststelling was maar een paar maanden laat, en er waren geen problemen met lasnaden of de ventilatie. Dat kun je niet zeggen van ICNG. SNG heeft gemiddeld minder storingen dan SLT en het interieur heeft vanaf het begin al wc’s en WiFi. Je kunt je mening baseren op feiten, of natuurlijk op het gezeur van een klein aantal nostalgische mensen die alles wat niet op stoom rijdt afkeuren.
Everything we know up to now about the ICNG is probably set in stone, I want the German option to spearhead cross-border services like Den Haag - Aken and a service relieving the IC Berlijn.
The IC-Berlijn should receive new 230 kph Talgo ICE -L trains later this or next year, they look pretty snazzy and actually have a multi voltage lock so the lock change at Bad Bentheim won't be necessary anymore
@@RenzeKoper yes I know I wasnt really clear on 'relieving' I mean one that operates as a normal IC to a german city closer to the border, so that the IC-Berlin can skip stops and is more targetted towards long distance travellers. This is just a rough idea though as Ive read that appearently there is hardly any space in Germany for the ICB anyway causing its notorious delays. speeding up on our side of the border isnt an option either for the short term. moreover at Almelo infrastructure changes are being procured for the passage of the two trains around that area in an effort to speed up service. I think in this case providing a slower conventional option would therefore relieve the ICB of some problems.
Really don't know why we didn't go to Siemens or Hitachi for their high speed trains. Velaro or Class-395's are amazing trains and proven to be one of the best on high speed rail. Yeah they are more expensive but instead of a speed increase from 160 to 200 you get one well into the 250/300 range. The ICNG is gonna be a good train to replace DDZ and ICM trains on regular service, not for high speed into Belgium.
Remember that at this time, Hitachi was only building for the Asian and North American markets. They took over AndaldoBreda, which is when they began building for the European market as well. I think Japanese manufacturers should have a bigger presence in Europe.
Not sure your explanation of the origin of "Fyra" makes sense. From what I understood, it was supposed to be a conjugation of the English "Fire" because of its speed, and the Dutch/Flemish word "fier", meaning pride.
All sorts of wild theories today. First of all, Dutch people don’t use the word fier. That’s an exclusively Flemish term and it seems unlikely that a project spearheaded by the Dutch would have such a name. The company who created the name, GloBrands (same company who invented Thalys) chose this because it means the number 4, while emphasizing that it sounds similar to the French word fière, and to a lesser extent, fire. But the main inspiration remains the four cities it was supposed to connect, and this is quite easy to look up.
@@Thom-TRA The reality is probably that such marketing brand names don't necessarily mean a single concrete thing: they're chosen because they sound good (compare to car names, for instance), with the right connotations such as speed and pride. It's a nice coincidence that it sounds like "four" in another language, but you shouldn't take a branding agency at its word. By the way, firstly this was a Belgian-Dutch cooperation (the NMBS bought several V250 sets as well), and "fier" is still part of both the Dutch and French language ("fière) so would be representative.
@@bomcabedal it’s true that these names are made up and have many different inspirations. Thalys was inspired by the talisman and the Thalasse coast. I’m telling you as a Dutch person, the majority of Dutch consumers do not have the word fier in their lexicon and would not have that association. The connotation is a secondary source of inspiration. And your point about not taking a marketing agency at its word is puzzling, and that’s me being generous. They created the name, and I’m just supposed to act like they’re being dishonest about their process? Why? Because you don’t agree? So if a couple names their kid Thomas after the biblical character, but you think they named it after the tank engine, they’re wrong and you’re right?
@@Thom-TRA Not really. My point is that the spin a marketing agency gives to a name does not necessarily reflect tells the whole truth of why its was chosen. Car brands often retcon their choice of names to mean something sincere when it was really the result of something else, particularly a positive "sound" and connotation. Having worked in marketing, I've seen how these things happen. In a way, how parents may like the sound of the name "Thomas" primarily, before deciding on it because it is also a Biblical character (or despite it). And being a Dutch speaker myself, your experience of the language is probably different from mine. Flemish is Dutch as well, after all, and so is Limburgish. So yeah, I don't think the explanation of the name is as straightforward as you say, particularly for a project that was already controversial before it even started. But hey, we don't have to agree.
@@bomcabedal you said my explanation for the name Fyra did not make sense. But whether or not it was the first thing the brainstorming team came up with, really doesn’t matter. When they announced the name, this was their explanation, and that’s all that matters in the context of this video. You may have worked in marketing, but you did not work on this project. En ja, technisch gezien in Vlaams natuurlijk een vorm van Nederlands. Maar het heeft heel veel eigen vocabulaire. Wij zeggen bijvoorbeeld “vast en zeker.” In Holland is fier geen algemeen gebruikt woord. En laat dat nou net zijn waar NS gevestigd is, en waar het leeuwendeel van de reizigers gebruik zouden maken van de Fyra.
It seems like nearly all new high speed trains have problems. In the US, the Turboliners that ran the Empire Service in New York years ago had to have a full time technician on board to deal with issues. The original Acela trainsets were found to have defective brakes and had to be retrofitted. The new Avelia replacement had poor pantograph contact at speed and other problems. And all of these only run at 200 to 240 Kph (125 to 150 Mph).
As the distance between Amsterdam and Brussel is approximately 200 km it could be a bit of over an hour in the train at 200 kmh with a few stops, not bad I would say
So wait... why is it that all the NS trains (even including Fyra) are limited to slower speeds while other services seem to operate on the line at 300 km/h without problems?
NS has contracts with high speed operators like Thalys and Eurostar (although this will end in a few years, I believe). So their “own” trains are mostly domestic, and since distanced within the country are really short, there really isn’t much need for a 300 km/h train. And those are expensive. Just my thoughts on why, obviously I’m not involved in the actual decision-making.
The "normal" Dutch rail network has a top speed of 140 km/h and run on 1500V DC. The HSL is 300 km/h and have 25kV AC power. All of the old NS stock is unable to run on the HSL. That is why they leased the Traxx locos, since they can run on 1500V DC, 3000V DC, 15kV AC and 25kV AC and change while in motion. The HSL also use ETCS in-cab signalling, so you need new trains fitted with ETCS. So they have to buy new trains to get something that can run on both the conventional network and the HSL. And there are safety regulations that makes the trains more and more expensive with the higher top speeds. So if you buy one that has a max speed of 200, you can get it much cheaper than if you get one that does 300.
@@sjokomelk NS already owned 3 ICE 3M set's since 2006-ish, they could've bought a few more since they have experience with them. Also, the ICE 3 Neo is going to be replacing the ICE 3's between Belgium and Germany, same will happen with the ICE 3's running between Germany and the Netherlands
Well the service in Netherlands is better with 200 kph then anything deutsche bahn does with 300kph. I like how the flow livery mimic the older lokomotives
Switzerland doesn't have a high speed network, apart from two small tunneled sections. Nevertheless I don't see any reason to feel envy for what the Dutch got so far! I guess we're pretty spoiled with the rolling stock we have here, apart from the a bit underwhelming Twindexx IC train sets.
I love traveling by train in Switzerland. Last time was 2018 for me, way too long ago! I took the Belle Epoque. I want to try the SOB flirts next time.
@@Thom-TRA Good idea, they are rather comfy and the lines they serve (old Gotthard line and Pre-Alpine line) are very picturesque. If you want to experience something really special, take the RHB Albula-Bernina line across the Alps.
NS did not want to buy TGV's or ICE's because they were too expensive. So when they finally bought the V 250's from Ansaldo Breda ( with no experience in high speed trains at that time ) they ended up with a double disaster. 1 Financially and 2 the trains. There were no 2 trains build exactly the same. So many differences between them ( HOW???? ). Buying cheap ended up being expensive. They were not refunded the full value of the Albatros ( V 250 ) trains. Now they spend money for nothing. They had to order more ICNG's to fill the gap that the V 250's left. And yes, 22 ( of which 2 prototypes ) will be made so they can also ride under 15 kV AC in Germany.
I think it would make more sense for Thalys to get a Duplex because they already operate the single deck variant. The TGV is a very expensive train and not something that would operate as a 'normal' intercity as well. The ICNG is still a totally different class with a different purpose.
@@Niels_f2704 true but for intercity direct to be able to go 300 Kph would be use for both HSL lines since they could add more international trains like Eurostar and thallys if there is no slower train on that piece of track
that or the ICE 3M, the NS already owned 4 sets of these, so they already have experience Dunno why they cheaped out though... Next to that, they own 3 of those set's but they don't really use them on a highspeed
When they manage to magic more paths into existence through the bottleneck of Köln Hbf - Hohenzollernbrücke - Köln Messe-Deutz 😅 It is technically possible to run K-Ehrenfeld, Ringbahn, Südbrücke then the northern curve around Humboldt to join the Siegstrecke before the branch to CGN, but I can't see DB or the Bundesnetzagentur being at all enthusiastic about it.
@@Thom-TRA You have quite a few major/rising theme parks just in that area where the from Düsseldorf Central to Eindhoven. Although Efteling and Phantasialand are the larger two and are a little west and south of those points
The use of the ICNG prototypes for Germany is most likely for the Intercity line between Amsterdam and Berlin. Atleast, this is what I think is possible.
Ansaldo came up the cheapest in a tender. No surprise they had some shortcomings. Then public opinion and panicky politicians wanted to return within 8days like any other webshop order, not understanding that it would set us back 10 years.
Thom from TRA - I just want new trains!!! :/
Me in USA - I just want trains :(
Hahahaha as someone who lives in the US I feel that on a personal level.
Me too, friend. Me too…
@octa 5501 I love coming to SoCal so I definitely will try!
In the United States you have trains trams and subways there but not like in the Netherlands but still have trains in the Netherlands we have like trains everywhere
But i gonna be honest for once in the Netherlands we are depended on public transportation.
But United States should not imitate the Netherlands because in the United States the weather is very unpredictable like tornadoes and tsunami‘s and if there are trains and other transport vehicles get hit it will cost you a lot of money and a lot of work to repair it and the infrastructure would be chaotic.
In the Netherlands we weather is standard but we need country and places where unpredictable weather so that we can do our research and understand how the world works.
If we have tornadoes and tsunami’s are infrastructure will be totally broken and that is the downside for being dependent on public transportation
You should be happy with what you have at least your government knows what there are doing.
@@mandelni hé landsgenoot, zo te horen weet jij dus helemaal niks over Amerika. Dit land is groter dan heel Europa, denk je nou werkelijk dat er overal tornado’s en tsunami’s zijn?
En denk je dat die natuurrampen de autowegen met rust laten?
Wat een bizarre opmerking 😅
I commute on the Den Haag - Eindhoven line and although the TRAXX locomotives do have a lot of technical issues and need to be replaced, the ICR coaches are great from a passenger perspective. The seats are very comfortable, the ride quality is incredibly smooth and the cabin is extremely quiet. I hope the ICNG will be able to match that performance.
The TRAXX trains have an incredibe power-to-weight ratio, with two 7500hp locomotives and 7 to 9 single-deck coaches. They can accelerate well at high speeds, but since they only have 8 powered axles per train, their acceleration from a standstill isn't that remarkable. The ICNG probably won't have as much total power, but given that it will have 14 powered axles for an equivalently sized train (5-car ICNG + 8-car ICNG) I suspect it will have better acceleration overall.
In any case, I can't wait for the ICNG to enter service. It feels very odd as a passenger when the train is only going 160 km/h on the 300 km/h line because the curves are banked too steeply for that speed. 200 km/h will be pretty close to the equilibrium point where you'd feel no lateral G force at all, which will be very cool to experience.
I used to take that train a lot too! I lived in Leiden but went to school in Rotterdam Alexander. I would make it a point to take a different route home than I had taken in the morning (I could also take the R-net sprinter via Gouda which was a favorite of mine).
I love the refurbished ICRs. The colorful design is so fun. And nothing beats the noise of a TRAXX accelerating. I hope NS keeps a few. I know they’re leased, but I wish someday I could take my grandkids to the Spoorwegmuseum and show it to them in yellow and blue.
Slight correction, departure from standstill on traxx isn’t slow because of the amount of powers axles. It is slow due the use of the AFB speed system, this does not only act as a cruise control (max limiter) but also as a traction curve addition, this is primarily for comfort, as allowing drivers to speed up as fast as they can, is gonna make them do it.. and full speed without restriction on a double traxx set is insane. Therefore the use of AFB limiters.
As for ICNG acceleration, what I’ve gathered from colleagues is that it’s very fast. But just as most of the current modern light trainsets, this fast acceleration isn’t without downsides, due to the designs used nowadays, slippage and gliding is also quite noticeable, just like SNG or FLIRT. And to add to that, NS will probably add a traction curve max limit to their trains, since there is too much power available for the driver, again just like SNG and FLIRT.
The ICRm ( m = modernized ) are not that quiet. Remember these coaches are from the '80's. Although they are refurbished/modernized they are still old. Hence the max speed of 160 kph. It was simply too expensive to put other bogies under them to allow a higher maximum speed. And except for the HSL-Zuid/South ( like there is a HSL-Noord/North or HSL-Oost/East, huhhuh, noooooo ) there are no other tracks to use 200 kph. So why bother in the first place.
Thank you for this interesting but depressing story ! N.S could have bought several existing designs for high speed service, like a shortened SNCF TGV, or one of many current designs from Siemens. One can only hope the ICNG will be reliable !
The ICNG is from Alstom, from an existing family so should have higher chances
ICNG was needed anyways because the ICMMs are at the end of their lifespan and this is the replacement for the longer distance commuters
Yeah but the Coradia Stream is still a totally new generation of trains from the Coradia family so it's kinda to be expected.
@@Niels_f2704 The Corodia Stream already runs in different countries: France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Romenia ... etc. So, they are noy yhat new.
Unfortunately, I see very little possibility that the netherlands is going to adapt the rest of their train network to 25kvac... The existing overhead lines are 1.5kvdc.
I suspect the big reason for NS not buying dedicated high speed trains like an Alstom TGV ot Siemens Velaro is that they are simply not suited for the type of services NS wants of the ICNG. While a high speed train is well suited for the HSL South, it isn't suited for the commuterlike services to other places, with more frequent stops, lower speeds and the quicker boarding times.
200km/h is a bit of an anticlimax, but at least the route Amsterdam - Brussel is so short, that 200 or 250km/h doesn't make a huge difference.
It would, however, be easier for the operator to schedule trains if they all were able to go at the same 250 or 300km/h.
Ansaldo had long-standing problems with corner-cutting, so its demise for having poor train designs doesn't really surprise me.
Yeah it’s surprising their metros perform so well
Where have I heard a similar story?!
Ansaldo got bought out by Hitachi and got turned into Hitachi Rail Europe.
More surprising is the fact that since the fyras came back in Italy they've became a kinda of reliable train somehow
@@lucanoquelfarabuttomane4013 Because Ansaldo now has the expertise from Hitachi which makes them correct their mistakes.
one thing to add tough is that those trains accelerate like crazy, and with the short distances that is a huge advantage (schiphol-rotterdam they are as fast as the thalys).
That’s true. Though they still feel like a glorified regional train.
@@Thom-TRA true, to be honest they are, and I would not have minded a fancier "high speed" train desing.
But in a practical sense, if you want to go faster then 200-250km/h you need specialized trains which accelerate slowly and are a lot more expensive to maintain. So you end up with a train which does the distance in a similar time, but costs a lot more, so i can understand their decision.
@@Thom-TRA 99% of train travel in the Netherlands is regional/commuter distance.
@@roger0929 I know that. I was one of those commuters for many years.
There are long distance trains too and they need appropriate stock for those services. I’m not convinced ICNG is.
@@Thom-TRA They're closely related to the new ETR 103/104 "Pop", also built by Alstom and part of the Stream family, that are being introduced in Italy to run low-capacity regional services. The front looks the same, but the NS trains have smaller windows and different and fewer doors, as well as an higher top speed. The sound is also really similar.
What we call a 'Hoofdpijndossier' 😂 Yes, the High-speed line is chaotic. However, the ICNG seems to be a great train!
The singing of this train reminds me of the time the then-new double deck intercity trains were introduced. They also used to produce this noise. I think they managed to reduce it for these sets later on.
Neat and interesting video, Thom! Last summer I had a stopover at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport while traveling from Detroit to Dubai. The Dutch are very nice and welcoming people, and the country looks absolutely beautiful (even if I only got to see it from the air)! I'd love to do a proper trip to the Netherlands sometime and experience what it has to offer... and also ride some trains, of course!
Hey Thom, very interesting video. 👍 The Fyra was the last train where NS had a big impact on the design. It's a shame that Ansaldo Breda was so bad at the time, no money to develop things properly. Nowadays Hitachi is the owner and they produce many good high speed trains. The new ICNG is an off the shelf product with a little bit of NS sauce on it. Greatings, Ralf
I lived in Japan for 10 years so I like hitachi a lot :) it’s sad NS will probably never go with them for any orders…
The V250, after years of storage, were recently bought by Trenitalia, the main Italian railway operator, which refurbrished them and called them ETR700. Nowdays they're running without any major issues (at least to my knowledge) on the Italian network. They're probably not the best in the Italian high-speed fleet, however the more recent and flaghship model ETR1000, was designed by the very same AnsaldoBreda!
@@LucaPasini2 I would like to ride the Italian “Fyra” someday. I moved to the Netherlands the summer after they were suspended, so I caught all the political drama, but I was never able to ride them!
@@Thom-TRA The purchase of those trains, that at the time had been mothballed in some yard for a long time, by Trenitalia didn't come without controversies, as the dispute with NS was well known, but in the end they got a fleet of "new" trains just having to pay for the refurbrishment costs, it was a dangerous bet and they probably won it.
If you think about how Italy was politically and economically back when the Fyra were designed and built, you'll realize that some flawed trains were just the tip of the iceberg! AnsaldoBreda is also a strange company because during those years they made some terrible products but also some highly innovative and succesful ones, like the automated metro standard used in Copenhagen and many other cities.
@@LucaPasini2 yeah, Italy’s politics were… interesting to say the least. Hope they don’t go back to that, it would be a shame. Though maybe some other country would welcome a free stolen train 😂
the fyra and the ic4 stories kinda hurt me because Ansaldo Breda is the one that made the Majestic ETR500 Frecciarossa trains which are one of the best in the world, even now a lot of people prefer the ETR500 to the ETR1000 for its comfort, not the ETR100 is a bad train obviously that is also made by Ansaldo Breda, they made a lot of awesome trains but these 2 sets, they ruined their reputation :(
I think hitachi is improving a lot of things!
Thanks for the video Thom. I've learnt something new about the railways in the Netherlands. I did not even know about the voltage change on the HSL or the extra supplement on the Intercity Direct Service using the HSL. I've travelled on the direct London to Amsterdam Eurostar myself. I like the look of the new stock coming into service this year. Hopefully it 'll decrease journey times. :-)
There’s no extra supplement if you’re traveling internationally!
Glad you enjoyed the video. It sounds like you have some HSR drama on your side of the pond too…
As someone who has travelled in quite a few European countries by train (Italy excluded), the service NS offers by far has been the best - this includes reliability, time, cleaness, etc.
The only things which need improving overall are pricing (duh) and making them bigger (which with the current shortage of workers is not happening any time soon).
Once you live in the Netherlands for a few years you may change your mind on the reliability and time parts… better than most European countries but definitely not perfect. The amount of times I was late to school…
Meanwile the V250 (the Fyra) sets have being rebuilt and are reliably running at 250 km/h in Italy (as ETR700).
Yeah that is quite funny isnt it
Doesn’t take away the fact that the V250 was a shit train from the get go. It took the Italians a full extra year to get those trains ready for daily use
I saw a video of a dutch vlogger. And it did not run reliably at all. It could not drive faster than 140kmh without problems and could not use the high speed line.
The finishing was not ok either (electric wires in sight a.o.).
@@lws7394 The ETR700 run regularly on high-speed lines in Italy, maybe the service this guy was mentioning simply didn't travel on such lines for the whole trip! They're maybe worse than the ETR500 or ETR1000, but aren't known to be particularly unreliable
I want to ride it in Italy for the experience. I moved to the Netherlands summer of 2013, right after this all happened. I caught all the political drama, but never managed to ride the trains themselves!
5:31 als Dordtenaar kan ik zeggen: Dordrecht is echt genaaid met de komst van de HSL. We zijn de Benelux trein kwijt geraakt maar ook de IC tussen Den Haag en Eindhoven (- Venlo).
De oude ICRm’s zijn super comfortabel trouwens. Gebouwd met Y32 bogies net zoals de Corailrijtuigen van de SNCF!
2:43 🤣 that guy was relentless!
New viewer from the UK here (and a fan of Dutch railways). Very informative video. Subscription earned!
Thank you! I have a long-standing wish to visit your country and try out the trains there. Someday!
@@Thom-TRA There's certainly a lot to see!
Watching you say “at least there aren’t any parts flying off these trains” was very funny to me as just a few days ago, an ICNG lost its pantograph
Seriously? That’s funny.
Ok now I really want to see a Stadler Smile in NS livery. That would have been perfect.
The Stadler SMILE (SBB Giruno) would be the perfect Fyra replacement. Too bad that it was only developed several years later. Its an amazing train to ride in my opinion.
I love the design of the SMILE
Very interesting video! I also liked the fact you mentioned Ansaldobreda's issue in my home country of Denmark :)
If I recall correctly the IC2/IC4 were quite a headache for you! I love visiting your country
@@Thom-TRA (Made a lil typo and meant country of origin, anyways) I'm happy to hear that :) Even though I have lived in Denmark for a short period of time, and have never ridden these trains, I understand their failure (Like with their coupling "mouth" having the ability to open and close, which later failed). I am currently living in Luxembourg, and I am patiently waiting for CFLs new coradia stream HC sets.
Just imagine what the HSR 2 in the U.K is going to be like. Ten years late, and ten times over budget.
I love the sound of the ICNG's. The new super energy efficient electric / traction systems in recent trains have very cool sounds.
It's a bit loud but really fun.
It sounds atrocious in my opinion. All around the world new trains have graceful, quiet sounds, but the ICNG sounds like nails on a chalkboard.
@@Thom-TRA Really? The most recent Siemens ICE or Alstom TGV M, Bombardier Regio 2N and others also have strong harmonics at acceleration, each with slightly different notes and strength.
Apparently it's due to the new more efficient electric / traction chain and varies according to electrification voltage, acceleration strength but also temperature.
I find it much better than the whining / whistling sound of some trains, usually metro trains, like on the fairly recent trains of New York subway or Paris metro MF01 trains (though the latest trains in Paris, the MP14, have great harmonics).
I love how the ICNG sounds, reminds me of the VIRM but more quirky.
We will have to strongly disagree on that one. No train built in the 2020s should make such an awful noise.
Between 1979 and 1981 I travelled from Leiden to Bruxelles-Midi (south station) with the Benelux train. Departure 18:02, arrival 20:10. Almost never a delay. We are more than 40 years later now, not sure the service is better or faster.
It’s definitely gotten worse. I’m also sad the Benelux doesn’t stop at Leiden anymore.
A great video Thom, interspersed with your own style of sarcasm, where needed. The different voltages definitely create headaches. Did you know that in 10 years time all international trains will terminate at Amsterdam Zuid? ProRail will have to build an immigration building for the Eurostar passengers travelling to London. All passengers will be able to transfer to the Amsterdam metro for their onward journeys.
I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I like the ICNG, just wishing things would go more smoothly. And they wouldn’t sound so terrible 😂
I knew about the Zuid plans! I’m actually supporting them, I think the connectivity with the NZL will serve tourists and being in the Zuidas will be good for business travelers. But I know that’s a very unpopular opinion… 😅
@@Thom-TRA It makes sense Thom. The trains will no longer have to use the slow and circuitous route via Lelylaan and Sloterdijk.
@@Eurobazz yeah that adds almost 20 minutes to journey times
@@Thom-TRA So? Most tourists want to be in the centre. So they need to change to the metro
@@EchtEenMilan and the center is more easily accessible by metro. The transfer is easy at Zuid, and the NZ Lijn offers direct access to more destinations. You’re also not considering the fact that many tourists don’t stay in the center, and you’re assuming that all travelers are tourists. That’s just not true, there are many business travelers. That share will grow even more if it is relocated to Zuid.
the old are still pretty comfortable buy my favourite thing is that it has an enclosed compartment wicth the icng doesn’t have
7:08 The sound of the current choppers sounds almost like the Galaxy Express 555.
Don't forget sometimes top speed on existing vehicles will be raised by regulators. Usually train-sets are more speedy as they legally can run.
Look at the ICE 4. Originally the top speed was 250 kph (155 mph), it got raised to 265 kph (165 mph).
Maybe in two years the ICNG will be allowed to run at 220 kph (which is still 10% more). And the next generation a decade down the line will than be 270 kph or something.
True. I think ICNG will stay at 200 km/h just because the costs for building stuff that’s faster goes up by quite a lot.
They should have used the ICE 3 trains also used for the routes to Frankfurt. Of course with the white-red livery replaced for the yellow-blue
You mean the first stops in Germany are Oberhausen & Duisburg Hbf because that station is actually the start of Hollandstrecke Duisburg Oberhausen Arnhem Utrecht
yep, they already owned and had experience with the ICE 3M, they should've gotten more of those instead, and in Fyra colours it would look sexy as fuck
I swear that blue and yellow train in the video sounds just like siren head when it starts moving
It really does lol
From your recording of the ICNG's departure sound, this train might end up with the nickname "de zeemeeuw" (seagull).
Gillende keukenmeid maybe? 😂
I think it sounds a bit like a combination of a seagull and a Formula 1 racing game on a Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis
@@Thom-TRA The sound of the ICNG comes from inverters manufactured by Alstom Holec...Holec which is reputed to have "weird" sounds, a Dutch company.😉
@@Lodai974 they're also the same manufacturers for the DD-IRM trains (Alstom holec took this over later and manufactured the remaining VIRMS)
Can't help but wonder whether these trains have enough seats. It looks like a Sprinter layout inside which means very few actual seats per coach. They shouldve just bought a couple TGV's and be done with it.
I honestly don't think it'll be a problem. I think it only looks like there are few sears because each coach is shorter, due to most sharing bogies with the next coach in the train set.
Besides the extra accessibility should be a standard already in 2023, including fir high speed trains, just look at Talgos trains.
I think it should be fine, if there are two eight car sets coupled together. Probably not much less than ICM.
@Trains Are Awesome 2 eigth's is a massive train length for the amount of seats. I doubt they'll be as comfortable as a ICM either.
@@vaaggasje remember, the cars are much shorter
Considering they're nationally replacing the single level ICMM it will be fine
And yeah we wish Belgium and the Netherlands has just gotten some euroduplexes back in 2010, but alas not enough funding, from day 1 NS was wanting proper high speed service but only had budget for +-200 kph trains and thought they got exceedingly lucky with 250 kph stock even if we had gotten euroduplexes we likely also would've had ICNGs
Hi Thom - thanks for the video, a very interesting summary of the Fyra era and its legacy. My first international train trip was London to Arnhem via Roosendaal including the Beneluxtrein so have been watching from a distance. I used the route last summer to reach Nijmegen which was a bit of a drama as the one of the Traxx was defective and the Breda stop was cancelled. Hope the new timetable and trains provide an more robust service. Although seems future trips to Nijmegen will be on the Belgian alternative service, interested to see what is provided to allow connections to the East of the Netherlands via Breda .
But don't forget: There are HOURLY Thalys trains A'dam Centraal and Bruxelles Midi with less than 2 hrs travel time between the capitals - so the ICNG is not the premium product on that line, but the workhorse for the "inbetween" and probably more cost aware or OV chipkaart travellers.
When did I say it was the premium?
Thalys is very expensive and there should be a high quality high speed product for regular budgets. 14 years is very late.
You also can’t use your OV chipkaart to Belgium.
You are right, trains are awesome. They are a nice way of traveling. I look forward to trying this new train in the future 👍
I see the new ICGN set almost daily on my way to school (leiden to Rotterdam) and have seen them parked at the basically unused platform at Schiedam Centrum. They look absolutely amazing and I can't wait until I finally get to frickin ride jt
I used to commute Leiden to Rotterdam for school too! Every day for 3 years (V4-V6).
Almost comical with how similar the history of the Danish and Dutch high speed train is.
Getting screwed over by Ansaldo Breda trying to develop a new train which just did not work. The Netherlands probably learned from Denmark's mistakes and were way faster to back out of the contract and demanding a refund where as the Danish politicians kept pumping money into the project hoping it would eventually work. But as you pointed out, the trains getting replaced by the new Alstom trains are not the 30+ year old IC3 trains. It is the 15 year old IC4 train from Ansaldo Breda.
As a consequense of this, both NS and DSB those to buy an already working and established platform for their next gen of IC-trains.
Both railway operators ending up choosing the Alstom Coradia Stream in hopes that it will finally elevate the InterCity/High Speed service to a better level
Great video, just subbed :D
Decent piece on the ICNG. Greetings from the always picturesque Station Tilburg Centraal.
ICNG will start in summer domestic passenger service on the Amsterdam to Breda line and old ICM trains will be slowly pulled out of service.
Goedkoop is duurkoop! Stadler Smile (EC 250) spoedbestelling kom er maar door!
In late 2019 I flew over from the U.S. and took the train from Schiphol to Tilburg and back for a concert, and changed trains at Breda. Now I know how to pronounce "Breda." :)
Breda is one of the easier ones unfortunately 😂
The same sets of the icng are used in Italy for commuter services branded as “pop”
Ik kan niet wachten tot the ICNGm op de rails komt.
Wow!
When your trains are so bad that you switch back to older ones!
Not a good sign for your company!
From the photo at 12:05 one can clearly see panel gaps en misalignments in de top lef corner of the front end af the train. If they even cannot align panels or do not care for this, what else is there that we do not see?
The acceleration noise reminds me if the uk class 365 electrics, similar screeching
the new ICNG is a great train, but the old traxx ones are just as good! i like sitting in an old train over standing in a new one😂
Great video! And in HDR, I like :D
I honestly always thought that the name fyra was another one of these randomly thought up words, like how a marketing firm came up with "polare" for a book store conglomerate, that... Needless to say; burned out faster than a wildfire in a woodfactory... -.-'
Also; they finally got into service on April 19th
I know! Wish I could have been there!
Right now the Albatros trains (They are called ETR700) operate on the Italian railways with Trenitalia and also travel on high speed.
Where I come from it says:
Nu sputà n'cielo che 'n facc te torna.
Traslation:
Don't spit in the sky, it will fall on your face.
I don’t really know what you mean with the expression
They could just have bought some siemens velaro's, those are one of the most popular high speed units and just paint it in NS livery, it will look amazing
those are too much for what the NS needed, a FLIRT 160 would've done it
@@hartstukken no, the HSL-Zuid has an minimum 220 km/h design speed. So driving 160 km/h for any longer isn't an option. Because of the 160 km/h speed the tracks of HSL-Zuid will need to be replaced 5 years earlier.
A velaro would look good in NS colors! Or a Stadler SMILE…
I’m just not a huge fan of the exterior look of Alstom trains, but the Coradia Stream in Germany and Denmark will look much better in my opinion!
@@hartstukken Stadler SMILE (EC250) would have worked
@@Thom-TRA I have talked alot about the Stadler smile with my friends about trains that would have been better then the ICNG as an replacement. The Stadler smile would have been alot better. The train would also possibly have an Kiosk/Restaurant car. Atleast a kiosk car is better then no food car. Especially on an 2:20 hour ride I would atleast expect catering.
I am surprised, but I thought the Fyra trains not even entered normal service, because that loss of a piece of metal happened on one of the testdrive, but it seems that my memory has deceived me. By the way, those former Fyra trains from Ansaldo Breda are now running in Italy normal services. I am convinced the Fyra EMU's could have been fixed. Buy anyway were are now about to get the ICNG. I can tell you, that the ICNG does the voltage change, and change from and to ETCS completely automatically. So I was told by traindriver Stefan, how posts video's of him driving trains, and recently he posted two test rides with the ICNG from Amsterdam to Breda and back, over the HSL.
The Fyra was in passenger service for about 40 days when the loose metal thing happened.
And the automatic switch is what gives ICNG the advantage!
really loved the video
but you forgot to mention that in other country's the icng is already running and from what i heard it is one of the most decent middle high speed trains you can have there reliable en sturdy an easy to handle
The ICNG only runs in one country right now, Italy. And they are regional trains there, with much less complicated technology.
1:52 It by chance also sounds like Czech slang for train driver - fíra
Lol I didn’t know that. That’s funny.
I agree it's not the best way this all went.
Good video.
Thank you!
Fyra was great to travel with (i did the first time it could)sadly the Belgian government never wanted it to succeed....
Excellent Thom! Thank you.
They should've ordered the Stadler Smile Trains!
yea, you can blame the NS and Dutch government for cost cutting and chosing Ansaldo Breda instead of going with something known and what we already own (*cough* ICE 3M *cough*)
Kinda a shame we will never see the Fyra and it's paint scheme again.. I loved the livery and would've loved it to see it on the ICE 3M or the ICNG if possible, but it won't happen sadly
Also SNG means "Sprinter New Generation" lol
I like the ICE, but you have to remember, the faster a train’s top speed, the more expensive it becomes. NS didn’t need something that could go 320 km/h, so that’s probably why they didn’t order ICEs or TGVs.
It sounds like the Montreal metro to me.
"Fyra a Swedish name for a Dutch Train", yep definitely smoking something when they thought of that.
Edit: I had to correct some Text can I get a heart again?
Sorry 😆
Your wish is granted haha
I find it peculiar that we in Denmark are basically following NS's footsteps. We also got he Ansaldo Breda trains with the IC4 you mentioned in the video. Absolute disasters. And what are we getting? Alstom coradia streams! What does however stink a little more is that there have been plans for 250km/h trains here in Denmark and a plan for a Swiss style timetable that with investment into speed upgrades and new lines would allow for each city pair in the country to be just one hour apart from eachother. However with the recent election, the majority in favour of the plan was lost and one of the most critical infrastructure projects for it were cancelled on the spot.
Still even with the current investments, the trains frim Copenhagen to the likes of Aarhus are still gonna be close to half an hour faster than they are today by thr end of the decade, and up to 45 min faster to Aalborg.
The Danish sets have a much cooler design than the Dutch ones in my opinion! Sorry to hear about the political change, hoping you will still have an amazing network. I enjoyed my time in Denmark.
Loc 1700 has proven itself.. rather than the TRAXX locs..
Nothing beats the DD-IRM
Change my mind
There is another flaw found,dirt in the air tubes of ICNG 🚂
Yeah that’s not good
Literally watching this on the ICNG to Schiphol😂
Glad they’re finally in service!
Ik ben het totaal niet met je eens over de SNG. slechte treinbouwer en slechte qualitijd treinen/trams.
ICNG is wel prima.
Maar tis geen HSL trein. NS zou bij Stadler de Giruno ( RABe 501 ) Treinsetten moeten kopen voor t echte HSL werk. dan heb je betrouwbare barrierevrije treinen.
Tja je hebt nou eenmaal mensen die hun mening gewoon klakkeloos overnemen van anderen op het internet.
CAF bouwt wereldwijd betrouwbare treinen, en SNG heeft nauwelijks kinderziektes gehad bij de start. NS heeft een vervolg bestelling voor SNG en een bestelling DDNG gedaan bij CAF. Dat betekent dat ze naar tevredenheid presteren (SLT heeft nooit een vervolg bestelling gekregen).
Hun indienststelling was maar een paar maanden laat, en er waren geen problemen met lasnaden of de ventilatie. Dat kun je niet zeggen van ICNG.
SNG heeft gemiddeld minder storingen dan SLT en het interieur heeft vanaf het begin al wc’s en WiFi.
Je kunt je mening baseren op feiten, of natuurlijk op het gezeur van een klein aantal nostalgische mensen die alles wat niet op stoom rijdt afkeuren.
And I still don’t understand WHY these trains have to be so loud….
I'll blame it on the design since i think almost all of the equipment now is placed on the roof
Are you dutch ,or American btw?
Everything we know up to now about the ICNG is probably set in stone, I want the German option to spearhead cross-border services like Den Haag - Aken and a service relieving the IC Berlijn.
The IC-Berlijn should receive new 230 kph Talgo ICE -L trains later this or next year, they look pretty snazzy and actually have a multi voltage lock so the lock change at Bad Bentheim won't be necessary anymore
@@RenzeKoper yes I know I wasnt really clear on 'relieving' I mean one that operates as a normal IC to a german city closer to the border, so that the IC-Berlin can skip stops and is more targetted towards long distance travellers. This is just a rough idea though as Ive read that appearently there is hardly any space in Germany for the ICB anyway causing its notorious delays. speeding up on our side of the border isnt an option either for the short term. moreover at Almelo infrastructure changes are being procured for the passage of the two trains around that area in an effort to speed up service. I think in this case providing a slower conventional option would therefore relieve the ICB of some problems.
Really don't know why we didn't go to Siemens or Hitachi for their high speed trains. Velaro or Class-395's are amazing trains and proven to be one of the best on high speed rail. Yeah they are more expensive but instead of a speed increase from 160 to 200 you get one well into the 250/300 range.
The ICNG is gonna be a good train to replace DDZ and ICM trains on regular service, not for high speed into Belgium.
Remember that at this time, Hitachi was only building for the Asian and North American markets. They took over AndaldoBreda, which is when they began building for the European market as well.
I think Japanese manufacturers should have a bigger presence in Europe.
The former Brussel express,was flawless (pull/shove trains)
Your pronunciation is great!
Tja, als je Nederlands bent is dat inderdaad niet zo heel moeilijk…
@@Thom-TRA I think many Nederlanders have noticable accents
Not sure your explanation of the origin of "Fyra" makes sense. From what I understood, it was supposed to be a conjugation of the English "Fire" because of its speed, and the Dutch/Flemish word "fier", meaning pride.
All sorts of wild theories today.
First of all, Dutch people don’t use the word fier. That’s an exclusively Flemish term and it seems unlikely that a project spearheaded by the Dutch would have such a name.
The company who created the name, GloBrands (same company who invented Thalys) chose this because it means the number 4, while emphasizing that it sounds similar to the French word fière, and to a lesser extent, fire.
But the main inspiration remains the four cities it was supposed to connect, and this is quite easy to look up.
@@Thom-TRA The reality is probably that such marketing brand names don't necessarily mean a single concrete thing: they're chosen because they sound good (compare to car names, for instance), with the right connotations such as speed and pride. It's a nice coincidence that it sounds like "four" in another language, but you shouldn't take a branding agency at its word.
By the way, firstly this was a Belgian-Dutch cooperation (the NMBS bought several V250 sets as well), and "fier" is still part of both the Dutch and French language ("fière) so would be representative.
@@bomcabedal it’s true that these names are made up and have many different inspirations. Thalys was inspired by the talisman and the Thalasse coast.
I’m telling you as a Dutch person, the majority of Dutch consumers do not have the word fier in their lexicon and would not have that association. The connotation is a secondary source of inspiration.
And your point about not taking a marketing agency at its word is puzzling, and that’s me being generous. They created the name, and I’m just supposed to act like they’re being dishonest about their process? Why? Because you don’t agree?
So if a couple names their kid Thomas after the biblical character, but you think they named it after the tank engine, they’re wrong and you’re right?
@@Thom-TRA Not really. My point is that the spin a marketing agency gives to a name does not necessarily reflect tells the whole truth of why its was chosen. Car brands often retcon their choice of names to mean something sincere when it was really the result of something else, particularly a positive "sound" and connotation. Having worked in marketing, I've seen how these things happen. In a way, how parents may like the sound of the name "Thomas" primarily, before deciding on it because it is also a Biblical character (or despite it).
And being a Dutch speaker myself, your experience of the language is probably different from mine. Flemish is Dutch as well, after all, and so is Limburgish.
So yeah, I don't think the explanation of the name is as straightforward as you say, particularly for a project that was already controversial before it even started. But hey, we don't have to agree.
@@bomcabedal you said my explanation for the name Fyra did not make sense. But whether or not it was the first thing the brainstorming team came up with, really doesn’t matter. When they announced the name, this was their explanation, and that’s all that matters in the context of this video. You may have worked in marketing, but you did not work on this project.
En ja, technisch gezien in Vlaams natuurlijk een vorm van Nederlands. Maar het heeft heel veel eigen vocabulaire. Wij zeggen bijvoorbeeld “vast en zeker.” In Holland is fier geen algemeen gebruikt woord. En laat dat nou net zijn waar NS gevestigd is, en waar het leeuwendeel van de reizigers gebruik zouden maken van de Fyra.
It seems like nearly all new high speed trains have problems. In the US, the Turboliners that ran the Empire Service in New York years ago had to have a full time technician on board to deal with issues. The original Acela trainsets were found to have defective brakes and had to be retrofitted. The new Avelia replacement had poor pantograph contact at speed and other problems. And all of these only run at 200 to 240 Kph (125 to 150 Mph).
My solution? The rest of the world just buys Shinkansen from Japan
@@Thom-TRA I guess that's OK if you like duck-billed trains. : - )
Dus je bent Nederlands, woon je in de VS nu?
Atleast my wintermuts (hat) has one on it allready 😂
As the distance between Amsterdam and Brussel is approximately 200 km it could be a bit of over an hour in the train at 200 kmh with a few stops, not bad I would say
Its average speed is not 200 km/h
So wait... why is it that all the NS trains (even including Fyra) are limited to slower speeds while other services seem to operate on the line at 300 km/h without problems?
NS has contracts with high speed operators like Thalys and Eurostar (although this will end in a few years, I believe). So their “own” trains are mostly domestic, and since distanced within the country are really short, there really isn’t much need for a 300 km/h train. And those are expensive. Just my thoughts on why, obviously I’m not involved in the actual decision-making.
The "normal" Dutch rail network has a top speed of 140 km/h and run on 1500V DC. The HSL is 300 km/h and have 25kV AC power. All of the old NS stock is unable to run on the HSL. That is why they leased the Traxx locos, since they can run on 1500V DC, 3000V DC, 15kV AC and 25kV AC and change while in motion. The HSL also use ETCS in-cab signalling, so you need new trains fitted with ETCS.
So they have to buy new trains to get something that can run on both the conventional network and the HSL. And there are safety regulations that makes the trains more and more expensive with the higher top speeds. So if you buy one that has a max speed of 200, you can get it much cheaper than if you get one that does 300.
@@sjokomelk NS already owned 3 ICE 3M set's since 2006-ish, they could've bought a few more since they have experience with them.
Also, the ICE 3 Neo is going to be replacing the ICE 3's between Belgium and Germany, same will happen with the ICE 3's running between Germany and the Netherlands
But why not 300 km/h capable trains??? If the track is there... 🤔😵💫... Just makes no sense!
Well the service in Netherlands is better with 200 kph then anything deutsche bahn does with 300kph. I like how the flow livery mimic the older lokomotives
Switzerland doesn't have a high speed network, apart from two small tunneled sections. Nevertheless I don't see any reason to feel envy for what the Dutch got so far! I guess we're pretty spoiled with the rolling stock we have here, apart from the a bit underwhelming Twindexx IC train sets.
I love traveling by train in Switzerland. Last time was 2018 for me, way too long ago! I took the Belle Epoque. I want to try the SOB flirts next time.
@@Thom-TRA Good idea, they are rather comfy and the lines they serve (old Gotthard line and Pre-Alpine line) are very picturesque. If you want to experience something really special, take the RHB Albula-Bernina line across the Alps.
Bro u dutch?
Yes
Ben je een nederlander?
all nice all those new trains nothing can beet the old mat-64 and old intercity NS should start making trains again for them selfs like the did
I want them to stop in Dordrecht !
Excellent Thom!
Also, the first week ICNG in service will be week 13
Only Dutch people know what week 13 means
Ik helaas niet
NS did not want to buy TGV's or ICE's because they were too expensive. So when they finally bought the V 250's from Ansaldo Breda ( with no experience in high speed trains at that time ) they ended up with a double disaster. 1 Financially and 2 the trains. There were no 2 trains build exactly the same. So many differences between them ( HOW???? ). Buying cheap ended up being expensive. They were not refunded the full value of the Albatros ( V 250 ) trains. Now they spend money for nothing. They had to order more ICNG's to fill the gap that the V 250's left. And yes, 22 ( of which 2 prototypes ) will be made so they can also ride under 15 kV AC in Germany.
Wat ik nooit heb gevat is dat de ns niet gwn bestaande tgv treinstellen of andere treinen heeft gekocht die al werkte zoals de thalys en eurostar.
Vast te duur, zou ik denken. Ook zonde als je lange afstanden niet met die snelheid kunt rijden.
They should have just ordered TGV Duplex train for HSL since it’s a proven product
I think it would make more sense for Thalys to get a Duplex because they already operate the single deck variant. The TGV is a very expensive train and not something that would operate as a 'normal' intercity as well. The ICNG is still a totally different class with a different purpose.
@@Niels_f2704 true but for intercity direct to be able to go 300 Kph would be use for both HSL lines since they could add more international trains like Eurostar and thallys if there is no slower train on that piece of track
that or the ICE 3M, the NS already owned 4 sets of these, so they already have experience
Dunno why they cheaped out though... Next to that, they own 3 of those set's but they don't really use them on a highspeed
The TGV Duplex is too heavy to run on HSL due to the soil it was built on.
@@chatkat shouldn’t be since a Icmm is still fine with the 2 Traxx locomotives on it and Thallys is just as heavy as TGV Duplex and runs fine on it
i really thoughg the icng could run at 250kmh but 200 kmh is kinda a bummer
Wat een moeiteloos goede uitspraak! 🙂
Bedankt! Ik probeer m’n Leids accent goed te verbergen!
Where do you come from? do you have more videos from the netherlands? you can pronounce it well the Dutch words
You should look through my catalogue. You may find a lot more Dutch videos…
Good video. I did not any of this, and I know a lot!
You’re welcome! I tried to make it as understandable as possible
Mooie 😊😊😊
i live in italy and i have these trains with different doors for Regional Conditions
It really is just a regional train…
Eindhoven to Koln-Bonn when?
When they manage to magic more paths into existence through the bottleneck of Köln Hbf - Hohenzollernbrücke - Köln Messe-Deutz 😅
It is technically possible to run K-Ehrenfeld, Ringbahn, Südbrücke then the northern curve around Humboldt to join the Siegstrecke before the branch to CGN, but I can't see DB or the Bundesnetzagentur being at all enthusiastic about it.
Arriva and DB Start will be running a train from Eindhoven to Hamm, via Mönchengladbach Düsseldorf and Wuppertal in the next few years!
@@Thom-TRA You have quite a few major/rising theme parks just in that area where the from Düsseldorf Central to Eindhoven. Although Efteling and Phantasialand are the larger two and are a little west and south of those points
@@Thom-TRA Well, there you go, no direct CGN but an indirect, change-at-Düsseldorf Hbf at least.
The use of the ICNG prototypes for Germany is most likely for the Intercity line between Amsterdam and Berlin. Atleast, this is what I think is possible.
Ansaldo came up the cheapest in a tender. No surprise they had some shortcomings. Then public opinion and panicky politicians wanted to return within 8days like any other webshop order, not understanding that it would set us back 10 years.
Pretty fair assessment here