Hi Paul, subscribed to your channel. Really appreciate your honest reviews and that you make sense of not just the unit but even right down to the bag size. Giving the unit to sound men to get their feedback in real world situations shows your expertise to cover all bases and to confirm your own. Cheers, Pete
It's refreshing to see a review made by someone who uses it in a professional capacity and therefore notices 'practical' things like the fact the bag is not ideal for access. I actually assumed the bag had a flap for access to the bottom connectors till I saw this. There is a real gap in the UA-cam market for videos made by professionals. There are a lot of amateur enthusiasts who want to be better, that could really benefit from your real-world experiences. Looking forward to more of the same. Thanks
I don't know if he had an earlier version of the bag or may have missed it, but here in the US the larger bag for the F8 has a velcro trapdoor bottom and the F4 smaller bag has zipper trapdoor bottom for easy access.
Yes, my bag doesn't have velcro or a zip.... either would be better than the stitched bottom on the zoom bag we get in the UK. We also only get the one size for both F8 & F4 ?
Solid review from a non-paid or product compensated professional finally !!! Brilliant, as is a mixer/recorder at this price point with this functionality. Major enhancement to this... SD card re-locator. Can be found cheaply on Amazon less then $10US saves a world of frustration. Basically a dummy SD with ribbon cable then you can Velcro or double side tape SD slot to a better location accessible from top of bag. Like yourself running mine off external power (V-mount that also powers 2 2ch wireless).
Thanks Mark for the kind feedback. Re-locating the SD card slots is a great idea. I've found SD SDHC SDXC Card Extender Extension Cable... and just ordered two to see if they work reliably. Hope that's what you meant. Thanks again. Paul
Hi, I congratulate you on the way you present the devices. Great review : ) I will work mainly on short films, often with a boom operator. The video and the sound will be recorded separately, so I will not have a problem with the output level. In this case, is it a good idea to have this Zoom F4 with the F-CONTROL? Or is it insufficient and waste of money ? And Did you compared the sound quality : F4 Vs. F8 ? I would have liked to listen and see a test done with the product. Thank you
Great review Sir! But this -10db issue (even though it been talked about a lot) leaves me puzzled. On one side i hear you and other people say it was a BIG issue, on the other side you say in your video that professional cameras can compensate the problem. I specifically want to use this device as a mixer for a Sony FS5 and I need it to work in such a way that I can rely on good sound quality recorded onto the camera - i don't really want to start syncing all my sound. Is the F4 a good choice for me or not? I am not a sound freak, but I do want sound quality that could potentially be accepted for TV broadcast. (But I work documentary style including lots of traveling with very small teams and I need my equipment to be as small as possible) Hope you can help me out.
Hi jfp, You're quite right... it's confusing and so annoying that Zoom have done this 'consumer' line level again. When feeding directly to a professional camera you basically have two choices: you could feed mic level from the mixer and set the gain on the camera correctly (mic)... or feed low (-10db) line level and wind the gain up on the camera. Having discussed this at length with many sound engineers, we've settled on the low line level option as this has significantly less chance of picking up unwanted noise/distortion from the umbilical cable between mixer and camera. I now regularly record the master audio track on my camera from the Zoom F4 for broadcast TV work... and have yet to have any complaints from post. We only record on the mixer as a backup and only then if the soundman can remember! For most work like this, all the faders get left at '0' and the mixer runs in 'trim' mode direct to camera. I don't know what the audio inputs are like on the FS5, but on my F5 they go from -99 to +99 with relatively noise free pre-amps. To give you some idea of the difference - running 0 level tone from an SQN would mean the camera gain pot was set to -25 to give -20db level on the meter. On the Zoom F4 the camera needs to be set to +70 to give the same -20db on the meter. This sounds like too much gain, and is not ideal... however, in day to day use for broadcast TV with my F5, it's been fine - and I honestly can't hear any difference !!! Paul
Some very easy solutions for the F4, which means I never had any of those issues you mentioned: power it always via hirose (a small Sony BP-U30 battery is enough for me), use a right angle BNC cable for the timecode, and/or use any of the common popular mixer bags with flaps on the bottom (such as my Orca OR30 bag. This also makes it very easy to access the SD cards!).
Thank you.... that Orca OR30 bag looks good. I presume it holds the mixer high enough so that it doesn't sit on your right angled BNC's? What is clear is that my Zoom bag is rubbish!
@@extrashot it is quite normal for modern bags to have an L bracket so you can support the bag at whatever height you like. As yes, you'd need this even with the likes of a 633 etc You've got the older Zoom bag they brought out with the F8. There is also the newer bag they brought out with the launch of their Zoom F4 which in my eyes is much better than the Zoom PCF-8 bag and I used the PCF-4 bag for the first year with my F4 until I got the Orca OR30 bag. As the modern Orca or K-Tek bags are massively better. I'm very surprised you found your Zoom bag to be "too small"!!! As I think the exact opposite! Perhaps you need to rethink your configuration? As your mixing bag shouldn't also be your gear transport bag which carries EVERYTHING to set. That is an impractical way to work, & for any soundie doing it that way is a quick path to a short career with back surgeries in your future.
@@SoundSpeeding True... but I do have a rather chunky umbilical, plus IDX V-Lock and often a couple of radios. The compartment that holds the mixer isn't too small... it's the rest of it. Many soundies I work with now have the double shoulder straps that go across their back... don't know what they are called but they do seem to help. Mind you, when I'm with a soundie, they're usually using their own kit anyway! I'll definitely check out the Orca... looks great, thank you.
@@extrashot the umbilical cord never needs to be in the bag, as it runs *out* of the bag to the camera (and if the cable is waaay too long you can coil up the excess and hang it from the side with velcro or a carabiner. Or the Orca OR-42). "Harness" is the word you're thinking of, and yup, I love mine! But you still don't want to be carrying more kilos than you need to. So using a V mount battery for instance is serious overkill in the bag, surely you have lots of BP-U60 batteries already for your cameras perhaps? I use that for my bag, or even the smaller BP-U30 which ways next to nothing. Then either have a battery plate with D-Tap / Hirose options or one of these batteries which already have D-tap built in (I've got both options). My OR30 bag is a bit smaller than your PCF-8, yet even so I've been thinking to buy an OR28 or even OR27 as well for the smaller jobs I do which is just a boom with a couple of wireless. (meanwhile I used my OR30 last weekend for a boom + 7 wireless shoot)
I also have the F4 and I find it best to use mounted between tripod and DSLR camera (that's what the handy bracket is for). This also alleviates the issue you had with getting at connectors if in a bag.
Good point... and I can see how that bracket would help when using a DSLR... but not sure I want to tie the mixer to the camera unless it's a static setup type of situation.
Hi Paul, Great review, no holds barred. You have stopped me........ I was so close to ordering one of these Zoom F4’s, the bag and a NP1 Battery shoe, as I thought the double A’S would not last until lunch, especially if your using the phantom power. I too was seduced by a camera return. Joy of Joys these guys at Zoom have been listening to what us paranoid sound men want, to make sure sound has left us and is now on a disc or card on the camera [assuming said camera is turning over] But Hey, no worries I’m recording all my channels to SD, in poly WAV [twice], I’m The directors favourite [the F4 looks great for the money] What has made me really sad is, as you pointed out and I have checked in the specs. The output on the XLR’s is domestic -10. NO ONE PUTS -10 ON AN XLR. RCA - phono,1/4 Jack, 3.5 mini Jack, Yes we expect that. I would not be happy to crank up that much gain on a camera. Fine if its only guide audio for the editor who is the going to re - sync all my beautifully recorded isolated audio. But we all know that 9 times out of 10 the editor will use the guide mix on the camera that a good sound man will provide, due to their lack or time and programme deadlines. I know this, as I’m also a Dubbing mixer and the editors tell me if it sounds good on their headphones or computer speakers they cant be bothered to re-sync rushes plus the fact its in sync [no arguments with the director as to rubbery lips] A bit of a shame. All that front end technology looks great and they fell at the last fence, it could have been so good.Professional +4 levels at the output. I am a Big Zoom fan and have been a user since the first H4 Handy recorder and Have various incarnations of their recorders and love them. If they would ask and listen a bit more to the Sound guys who use their kit they could clean up. Kev Pyne
Hi Kevin, You're quite right.. -10db (consumer line level) is the biggest problem with the F4. Such a shame! Hope you're well. I still wonder when the Christmas No.1 is coming out! Cheers, Paul
Really refreshing review - thank you posting. I have a question regarding the sound quality. I primarily record nature ambience and am looking to experiment with M/S techniques and currently have a SD MixPre with only 2 channels. If I sell/replace the SD kit how much will I miss the wonderfully natural recordings it allows? There is a big difference between sounding good with voice and sounding good in a heavy thunder storm or quiet dawn chorus with tons of depth in the source material. Do the preamps on the F4 really cut it or do I need to invest in SD kit? I'm using DPA 4060 pair at the moment.
Hi Martin, thanks for the feedback. The preamps and digital converter in the F4 are surprisingly good both for system noise and dynamic range. In fact, I'd go so far as to say really good !!! I've heard several Soundmen comparing the quality of sound very favourably to Sound Devices kit... which is amazing when you consider the value for money. It'll also allow you to happily experiment with MS no problem. However, there's one big disadvantage which could possibly effect the recording if you find yourself in places with sudden loud noises and need for a quality limiter. Sound Devices use a very good (and expensive) analog audio limiter before each channel goes through the analog to digital conversion, where as Zoom use a digital limiter after the digital conversion. This means an over modded signal going through the A/D conversion can distort if it's beyond the bandwidth of the converter. It's as if the damage has already been done before it gets to the digital limiter! That said, the dynamic range of the A/D converters is 120db which better than the Sound Devices 633 and the digital limiters are also very good... so you've really got to overload things before it becomes a major problem. Input noise is also arguably better on the zoom than the Sound Devices... so at the risk of annoying any professional Sound recordists reading... I'd say the zoom stacks up well. If it was me, I'd buy the Zoom and invest any money saved on something like an MKH30 on top of the MKH60... but then I'm cameras not sound !!!
I appreciate the detailed reply. In my situation I'm also interested to record the raw files as well as the summed MS. With the 4060s I'm using 3 mics and a kind of triple omni experiment, so ideally I'd like 3 or even 4 channels recorded, which only the F4 and the 633 permits. There is a huge price difference so I'm seriously considering the F4 despite the lack of analogue limiters.
Hi, Thank you. Because I use V-Lock batteries on my camera, I thought I'd use the same for the mixer, especially as some of the new IDX duo c-95 batteries are actually very slim for the power output... www.idxtek.com/products/duo-c95/ I clip them onto a V-lock adaptor from Hawkwoods. Unfortunately, they don't make the one I use any more, but this is the closest thing.... www.hawkwoods.co.uk/Prods/Product/VLR-SQN4S All powered through the 4-pin lemo - this set-up will last for a couple of solid days working, even powering radio mics from the same battery. Hope that all makes sense, and thank you for the comment.
Hi Jackie, Yes of course... the F4 has a USB audio interface and I've used it to record on my Mac a few times. Works well with both a mixed stereo feed or x6 separate tracks. Even has loop back on the menu but I've never used that personally. Cheers, Paul
Hi MoyzeVid, it m night be worth looking at the Sound Devices MixPre 3 or 6 - www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/mixpre-3 They are a little more money, but still the audio recordists favourite make !!!
True, but when you open it you'll find there's a wide strap connecting both sides of the bottom of the bag. Presumably to stop the mixer falling straight out the bottom. What this means is that you can't open the SD card/Battery flap without removing the mixer. There is a hole where the timecode BNC's should be... but this is quite hard to line up when the whole bag is upside down! I'll post a photo on ExtraShot which will explain it much better...
I've always used 5&6 for the return feed from camera... but I believe the trims are set through the menu/options once you connect to the 5/6 multi-pin input. From memory, it's always assigned as a stereo pair. Press and hold the INPUT 5/6 button to switch functions.
Your funny on location you must be a riot but I love your unboxing video of the Zoom F4. I am planning to buy one soon it's in my budget and it will give me an edge over other sound man on location and maybe more money as well. Thanks for your explanation much appreciated NYC.
Hi Paul, I wonder if you might be able to answer a couple of questions about this device. 1. Can you set the XLR inputs to the left or right channels as you please? for example have channels 1,2 and 3 on the left and 4 on the right? 2. It can actually record 4 ISO tracks to the SD cards?? Thanks, Sam
Hi Sam, Coming from an old (simple) SQN meant that this whole subject of stereo/LR and routing of outputs took me a while to get my head around. The short answer is yes, you can do exactly what you want and feed any input to either the left or right independently. However, there are two different ways to achieve this depending on how you are using the mixer. You can think of the mixer as a stereo source and pan any channel to the left or right side... or you can use it as 4 (6 actually) mono inputs and use the routing matrix to choose which XLR input goes to which output. It's very flexible as you actually have 3 outputs - Main, Sub and Headphone, and each input can be patched separately left or right on each output. Sorry... I haven't explained that very well !!! This mixer actually can record 6 channels but we normally use inputs 5/6 for reverse monitoring from the camera... this is the big advantage over the F8 especially when used as a field mixer. Each SD card can be set to record up to 6 ISO tracks (pre-fader) as well as Left & Right (post-fader) simultaneously. These can be either MP3 or WAVs as required. As I'm usually feeding a two channel camera while using the internal recordings as a backup, I set the mixer pots to 'trim' mode only while leaving the faders all set at +0-. Each channel is then routed to Main output left or right as required (and XLR'd to the camera) and then I record L&R to the SD cards as a WAV backup. It's only on special occasions that we ISO record the channels separately (pre-fader) as this is usually overkill and fiddly for what we need. But then I rarely use more than two mics !!! Take care, Paul
Yes, that would definitely help a bit... still sit proud of the mixer as the end of the BNC is currently level with the bottom. Next mod I might do is cut down the height of the battery/SD card flap so I can remove the cards without unscrewing the whole thing... thinking aloud really ???
Hi Janet, It only has the two internal SD card slots... so yes you'll need at least one card to record. Good news is you can simultaneously record different formats or tracks to either card. I often have tracks 1-6 recorded as high quality WAV's on one card, while recording L&R as backup MP3's to the other.
Thanks for the kind comment. timecode is just a clock with hours, minutes, seconds and frames (so it can change if you change frame rate). The clock transmits a digital signal, usually trough a BNC connector, so other pieces of kit can record and sync to the same clock. Equipment that uses timecode usually has timecode IN or OUT so you've got a choice of which piece of kit is the master and which other items slave from that. (ie. just connect timecode OUT on the master to timecode IN on each slave) If you are recording video from a camera (or multiple cameras) and separate sound... it really helps in the edit with syncing if everything is running to the same time, ideally frame accurate. By tradition, we normally set the time on the sound mixer and sync all the cameras to that. Because you don't want recorded time to jump around, it's also normal to set the timecode on each device to "Free Run" rather than "Record Run" otherwise the clock is only counting when you press record... which could be at a different time on each camera or mixer. Finally, if the clocks in each camera are good enough, you don't need to keep the BNC cables connected all day. You can just connect up - check that the clocks are in sync - and then disconnect. This is known as "Jam Syncing" and is usually good enough for most speech based recordings. The clock in the Zoom F4 is very good, so you'd probably only need to 'jam' it maybe a couple of times each day, just for safety. Hope that all makes sense - sorry if I've misunderstood the question and over explained the obvious!!! Cheers, Paul
The BNC sockets point directly downward and end up level with the bottom of the mixer... which means any connected cable is going to stick straight out of the bottom. At first I thought I could get right angled plugs and then run short ends out to the side. Unfortunately, this means the mixer won't sit flat in the bag. It's not the end of the world... just depends how often you need to sync timecode to or from your cameras? It's fiddly that's all.
ooh... not sure what you mean George? Can you get timecode into/from the Z6 or do you just put it on an audio track? (I don't know anything about the Z6!)
extrashot So the Z6 can provide a Time Code to sync Audio - in camera - with video... but you want to take audio - externally - for better quality. I used the Zoom H6 for a five minute scene with a number of takes for each actor... It was impossible to sync up! The Z6 clock is simply NOT accurate enough to sync sound from several mic over several minutes. Jude Curtis and Gerald Undone pointed out the inaccuracies of Prosumer cameras and the Zoom H6 doesn’t not generate Time Code. So, the cheapest solution is the Zoom F4 and a pair of tentacles to use the F4’s (accurate) Time Code and create the base audio track into the Z6’s mic left channel... then sync all sound recording/takes to that baseline... At least that’s the recommended solution. Haven’t been able to get the actors and support crew back together again... which is why you have to NAIL audio on set!!! (And why all those commercials about “filmmaking” with Prosumer products don’t feature dialogue but music to underscore images... good audio for “talkies” is NOT easy or cheap or convenient!)
I use a Petrol PS607 bag (now made by Sachtler). The mixer doesn't sit on the bottom of the bag so you can run a right angle BNC in or out and through the side hole of the bag and Bob's yer uncle
I must admit... the menu isn't the most user friendly on the F4 either. If I haven't used it for a while... there's always a short pause while I work it out again! However... I still find myself wanting the new F6 now with it's 32bit float !!! Maybe I'm a sucker for punishment but I love the value of what zoom offer?
@@extrashot I realise you replied a year ago but have you by any chance watched the Zoom/Sound Devices reviews by Curtis Judd(and others) and are you still wanting to (or have ) upgraded to the newer Zoom? cheers
@@doubledark2 I'm a big fan of Curtis Judd and have watched... I didn't regret the Zoom purchase at all, but did find myself wanting the Sound Devices! at the moment, I'm still happily using the Zoom F4 and it's still going strong. I'd really like to try the Zoom F6, with it's 32bit floating audio, but I can't justify the additional cost right now... there just hasn't been the work this year !!!
After a long time considering, I was ready to open the wallet. I looked online one night at the price of £530 for the F4 and case as package... next morning it was £689... Just a small matter of a 30% increase! I have decided to wait for Brexit, a more favourable pound and for austerity to end. I should be ready to buy when the F99 is out!
The fall in the pound has really hit the price of all our kit recently. Hope it comes back soon or I'll still be using the old F4 when you've got the shiny new F99 !!!
If you get a better case then you don't have to pull it out to change batteries and SD cards. I have a Portabrace bag I have used with various recorders and the bottom access is not an issue
Thank you, I'll take a look... do you happen to know which bag you have for small mixers?... I've had a few Portabrace camera bags/covers over the years, and they've all lasted very well.
The one I am using is from PortaBrace, it was for my PMD67 so it's a bit oversized, but I am sure they have one designed for the F4/8. They last forever and the company will make alterations if you need them. The only downside is they are fairly pricey. There are other bags that I am sure are also great but I don't own them.
@@skoue4165 Thanks for that... I couldn't see a photo of the bottom on the PortaBrace site... I was looking at the AR-F4 but they are the same size mixer anyway. It looks as though that might solve the timecode BNC connection issue as well. I'm now running mine from a V-Lock so it's just the SD cards and timecode that wind me up. I'll try one out. Thank you.
Thank you for the input on the F4. I can see what you mean about the BNC connector. Maybe try a right angle BNC connector (www.cablesondemand.com/Library/InfoManage/Items.asp?product=CO-058RABNCX2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwierMBRCHARIsAHl9i4EsJ94GZtaUe6A1g_NNOCLRu_DOpWkWXDUBKaDzSSTvkkvwJKkA5rgaAljgEALw_wcB), but again, as you state, the SD cards need to be accessed regularly. Maybe a bag with a velcro opening on the bottom of the bag? Do they make one with an opening?
Lovely to see a review from someone who is actually using the product. Thanks
...and thank you for taking the time to leave a comment, it's appreciated.
Hi Paul, subscribed to your channel.
Really appreciate your honest reviews and that you make sense of not just the unit but even right down to the bag size.
Giving the unit to sound men to get their feedback in real world situations shows your expertise to cover all bases and to confirm your own.
Cheers, Pete
Thanks Pete 👍
Like your relaxed style and practical experience - thanks for sharing your thoughts.
...and thanks for the kind comment.
Excellent review. I had been looking a the F4 for months, the -10db regrettably is a show stopper.
It's refreshing to see a review made by someone who uses it in a professional capacity and therefore notices 'practical' things like the fact the bag is not ideal for access. I actually assumed the bag had a flap for access to the bottom connectors till I saw this.
There is a real gap in the UA-cam market for videos made by professionals. There are a lot of amateur enthusiasts who want to be better, that could really benefit from your real-world experiences.
Looking forward to more of the same. Thanks
Thanks for the kind words Craig. Hopefully more coming soon.
I don't know if he had an earlier version of the bag or may have missed it, but here in the US the larger bag for the F8 has a velcro trapdoor bottom and the F4 smaller bag has zipper trapdoor bottom for easy access.
Yes, my bag doesn't have velcro or a zip.... either would be better than the stitched bottom on the zoom bag we get in the UK. We also only get the one size for both F8 & F4 ?
Hey Paul, appreciate your time and knowledge, you offer great points.
Very best to you always, Pete
Thanks Pete... and to you too !!!
Great review Paul, many thanks.
best F4 video yet! thanks!
thank you too! 👍
Solid review from a non-paid or product compensated professional finally !!! Brilliant, as is a mixer/recorder at this price point with this functionality. Major enhancement to this... SD card re-locator. Can be found cheaply on Amazon less then $10US saves a world of frustration. Basically a dummy SD with ribbon cable then you can Velcro or double side tape SD slot to a better location accessible from top of bag. Like yourself running mine off external power (V-mount that also powers 2 2ch wireless).
Thanks Mark for the kind feedback. Re-locating the SD card slots is a great idea. I've found SD SDHC SDXC Card Extender Extension Cable... and just ordered two to see if they work reliably. Hope that's what you meant. Thanks again. Paul
I don't even need one of these yet, but I have to say that you made a great video!
Thanks!
Thank you
this was such a good review. thanks for the funnys and the real world info.
...and thank you for the feedback!
Hi,
I congratulate you on the way you present the devices. Great review : )
I will work mainly on short films, often with a boom operator. The video and the sound will be recorded separately, so I will not have a problem with the output level.
In this case, is it a good idea to have this Zoom F4 with the F-CONTROL? Or is it insufficient and waste of money ?
And Did you compared the sound quality : F4 Vs. F8 ?
I would have liked to listen and see a test done with the product.
Thank you
Great review Sir!
But this -10db issue (even though it been talked about a lot) leaves me puzzled. On one side i hear you and other people say it was a BIG issue, on the other side you say in your video that professional cameras can compensate the problem. I specifically want to use this device as a mixer for a Sony FS5 and I need it to work in such a way that I can rely on good sound quality recorded onto the camera - i don't really want to start syncing all my sound. Is the F4 a good choice for me or not? I am not a sound freak, but I do want sound quality that could potentially be accepted for TV broadcast. (But I work documentary style including lots of traveling with very small teams and I need my equipment to be as small as possible)
Hope you can help me out.
Hi jfp,
You're quite right... it's confusing and so annoying that Zoom have done this 'consumer' line level again. When feeding directly to a professional camera you basically have two choices: you could feed mic level from the mixer and set the gain on the camera correctly (mic)... or feed low (-10db) line level and wind the gain up on the camera.
Having discussed this at length with many sound engineers, we've settled on the low line level option as this has significantly less chance of picking up unwanted noise/distortion from the umbilical cable between mixer and camera. I now regularly record the master audio track on my camera from the Zoom F4 for broadcast TV work... and have yet to have any complaints from post. We only record on the mixer as a backup and only then if the soundman can remember! For most work like this, all the faders get left at '0' and the mixer runs in 'trim' mode direct to camera.
I don't know what the audio inputs are like on the FS5, but on my F5 they go from -99 to +99 with relatively noise free pre-amps. To give you some idea of the difference - running 0 level tone from an SQN would mean the camera gain pot was set to -25 to give -20db level on the meter. On the Zoom F4 the camera needs to be set to +70 to give the same -20db on the meter.
This sounds like too much gain, and is not ideal... however, in day to day use for broadcast TV with my F5, it's been fine - and I honestly can't hear any difference !!!
Paul
Great review - really useful!
Glad it's useful, thank you.
Some very easy solutions for the F4, which means I never had any of those issues you mentioned: power it always via hirose (a small Sony BP-U30 battery is enough for me), use a right angle BNC cable for the timecode, and/or use any of the common popular mixer bags with flaps on the bottom (such as my Orca OR30 bag. This also makes it very easy to access the SD cards!).
Thank you.... that Orca OR30 bag looks good. I presume it holds the mixer high enough so that it doesn't sit on your right angled BNC's? What is clear is that my Zoom bag is rubbish!
@@extrashot it is quite normal for modern bags to have an L bracket so you can support the bag at whatever height you like. As yes, you'd need this even with the likes of a 633 etc
You've got the older Zoom bag they brought out with the F8. There is also the newer bag they brought out with the launch of their Zoom F4 which in my eyes is much better than the Zoom PCF-8 bag and I used the PCF-4 bag for the first year with my F4 until I got the Orca OR30 bag. As the modern Orca or K-Tek bags are massively better.
I'm very surprised you found your Zoom bag to be "too small"!!! As I think the exact opposite! Perhaps you need to rethink your configuration? As your mixing bag shouldn't also be your gear transport bag which carries EVERYTHING to set. That is an impractical way to work, & for any soundie doing it that way is a quick path to a short career with back surgeries in your future.
@@SoundSpeeding True... but I do have a rather chunky umbilical, plus IDX V-Lock and often a couple of radios. The compartment that holds the mixer isn't too small... it's the rest of it. Many soundies I work with now have the double shoulder straps that go across their back... don't know what they are called but they do seem to help. Mind you, when I'm with a soundie, they're usually using their own kit anyway! I'll definitely check out the Orca... looks great, thank you.
@@extrashot the umbilical cord never needs to be in the bag, as it runs *out* of the bag to the camera (and if the cable is waaay too long you can coil up the excess and hang it from the side with velcro or a carabiner. Or the Orca OR-42).
"Harness" is the word you're thinking of, and yup, I love mine! But you still don't want to be carrying more kilos than you need to. So using a V mount battery for instance is serious overkill in the bag, surely you have lots of BP-U60 batteries already for your cameras perhaps? I use that for my bag, or even the smaller BP-U30 which ways next to nothing. Then either have a battery plate with D-Tap / Hirose options or one of these batteries which already have D-tap built in (I've got both options).
My OR30 bag is a bit smaller than your PCF-8, yet even so I've been thinking to buy an OR28 or even OR27 as well for the smaller jobs I do which is just a boom with a couple of wireless. (meanwhile I used my OR30 last weekend for a boom + 7 wireless shoot)
I also have the F4 and I find it best to use mounted between tripod and DSLR camera (that's what the handy bracket is for). This also alleviates the issue you had with getting at connectors if in a bag.
Good point... and I can see how that bracket would help when using a DSLR... but not sure I want to tie the mixer to the camera unless it's a static setup type of situation.
I've seen your Black Magic Video too - great Channel... please many more! Thanks and Greets from Munich! ;)
Thank you... we do hope to do more soon.
Hi Paul,
Great review, no holds barred. You have stopped me........
I was so close to ordering one of these Zoom F4’s, the bag and a NP1 Battery shoe, as I thought the double A’S would not last until lunch, especially if your using the phantom power.
I too was seduced by a camera return. Joy of Joys these guys at Zoom have been listening to what us paranoid sound men want, to make sure sound has left us and is now on a disc or card on the camera [assuming said camera is turning over] But Hey, no worries I’m recording all my channels to SD, in poly WAV [twice], I’m The directors favourite [the F4 looks great for the money]
What has made me really sad is, as you pointed out and I have checked in the specs.
The output on the XLR’s is domestic -10. NO ONE PUTS -10 ON AN XLR.
RCA - phono,1/4 Jack, 3.5 mini Jack, Yes we expect that.
I would not be happy to crank up that much gain on a camera.
Fine if its only guide audio for the editor who is the going to re - sync all my beautifully recorded isolated audio.
But we all know that 9 times out of 10 the editor will use the guide mix on the camera that a good sound man will provide, due to their lack or time and programme deadlines.
I know this, as I’m also a Dubbing mixer and the editors tell me if it sounds good on their headphones or computer speakers they cant be bothered to re-sync rushes plus the fact its in sync [no arguments with the director as to rubbery lips]
A bit of a shame. All that front end technology looks great and they fell at the last fence, it could have been so good.Professional +4 levels at the output.
I am a Big Zoom fan and have been a user since the first H4 Handy recorder and Have various incarnations of their recorders and love them. If they would ask and listen a bit more to the Sound guys who use their kit they could clean up. Kev Pyne
Hi Kevin,
You're quite right.. -10db (consumer line level) is the biggest problem with the F4. Such a shame!
Hope you're well. I still wonder when the Christmas No.1 is coming out!
Cheers,
Paul
would it be worth carrying around a passive consumer-to-pro line level converter such as the Ebtech LLS-2-XLR?
Really refreshing review - thank you posting. I have a question regarding the sound quality. I primarily record nature ambience and am looking to experiment with M/S techniques and currently have a SD MixPre with only 2 channels. If I sell/replace the SD kit how much will I miss the wonderfully natural recordings it allows? There is a big difference between sounding good with voice and sounding good in a heavy thunder storm or quiet dawn chorus with tons of depth in the source material. Do the preamps on the F4 really cut it or do I need to invest in SD kit? I'm using DPA 4060 pair at the moment.
Hi Martin, thanks for the feedback. The preamps and digital converter in the F4 are surprisingly good both for system noise and dynamic range. In fact, I'd go so far as to say really good !!! I've heard several Soundmen comparing the quality of sound very favourably to Sound Devices kit... which is amazing when you consider the value for money. It'll also allow you to happily experiment with MS no problem.
However, there's one big disadvantage which could possibly effect the recording if you find yourself in places with sudden loud noises and need for a quality limiter. Sound Devices use a very good (and expensive) analog audio limiter before each channel goes through the analog to digital conversion, where as Zoom use a digital limiter after the digital conversion. This means an over modded signal going through the A/D conversion can distort if it's beyond the bandwidth of the converter. It's as if the damage has already been done before it gets to the digital limiter!
That said, the dynamic range of the A/D converters is 120db which better than the Sound Devices 633 and the digital limiters are also very good... so you've really got to overload things before it becomes a major problem. Input noise is also arguably better on the zoom than the Sound Devices... so at the risk of annoying any professional Sound recordists reading... I'd say the zoom stacks up well.
If it was me, I'd buy the Zoom and invest any money saved on something like an MKH30 on top of the MKH60... but then I'm cameras not sound !!!
I appreciate the detailed reply. In my situation I'm also interested to record the raw files as well as the summed MS. With the 4060s I'm using 3 mics and a kind of triple omni experiment, so ideally I'd like 3 or even 4 channels recorded, which only the F4 and the 633 permits. There is a huge price difference so I'm seriously considering the F4 despite the lack of analogue limiters.
Hi Paul,
Excellent review.
Could you tell me which power supply you use instead of the AA's.
Thanks very much
Hi, Thank you.
Because I use V-Lock batteries on my camera, I thought I'd use the same for the mixer, especially as some of the new IDX duo c-95 batteries are actually very slim for the power output... www.idxtek.com/products/duo-c95/
I clip them onto a V-lock adaptor from Hawkwoods. Unfortunately, they don't make the one I use any more, but this is the closest thing.... www.hawkwoods.co.uk/Prods/Product/VLR-SQN4S
All powered through the 4-pin lemo - this set-up will last for a couple of solid days working, even powering radio mics from the same battery.
Hope that all makes sense, and thank you for the comment.
Question: Can you plug the Zoom F4 into the computer and record in audacity like other mixers?
Hi Jackie, Yes of course... the F4 has a USB audio interface and I've used it to record on my Mac a few times. Works well with both a mixed stereo feed or x6 separate tracks. Even has loop back on the menu but I've never used that personally. Cheers, Paul
why your lav mic pointed to bottom ?
Avoiding plosives in a controlled environment
Have you tried the Orca OR 28 audio bag? I hope it fixes the timecode irritation.
I'll take a look... thank you!
Great, mister! Thanks!
Great video!
Thank you
Thanks for the review... Any other comparable ones in the same price range ?
Hi MoyzeVid, it m night be worth looking at the Sound Devices MixPre 3 or 6 - www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/mixpre-3
They are a little more money, but still the audio recordists favourite make !!!
There is a velcro opening flap thingy in the bottom of the PCF-8 bag though right?
True, but when you open it you'll find there's a wide strap connecting both sides of the bottom of the bag. Presumably to stop the mixer falling straight out the bottom. What this means is that you can't open the SD card/Battery flap without removing the mixer. There is a hole where the timecode BNC's should be... but this is quite hard to line up when the whole bag is upside down! I'll post a photo on ExtraShot which will explain it much better...
Great little deck. Although the Sound Devices pre-amps are top notch.
I’m getting familiar with my F4. Where is the trim for channels 5/6?
I've always used 5&6 for the return feed from camera... but I believe the trims are set through the menu/options once you connect to the 5/6 multi-pin input. From memory, it's always assigned as a stereo pair. Press and hold the INPUT 5/6 button to switch functions.
Your funny on location you must be a riot but I love your unboxing video of the Zoom F4. I am planning to buy one soon it's in my budget and it will give me an edge over other sound man on location and maybe more money as well. Thanks for your explanation much appreciated NYC.
Obviously, I'm nothing but very sensible and professional on location !!! ;)
Thank you for the kind comments.
Hi Paul,
I wonder if you might be able to answer a couple of questions about this device.
1. Can you set the XLR inputs to the left or right channels as you please? for example have channels 1,2 and 3 on the left and 4 on the right?
2. It can actually record 4 ISO tracks to the SD cards??
Thanks,
Sam
Hi Sam,
Coming from an old (simple) SQN meant that this whole subject of stereo/LR and routing of outputs took me a while to get my head around. The short answer is yes, you can do exactly what you want and feed any input to either the left or right independently. However, there are two different ways to achieve this depending on how you are using the mixer. You can think of the mixer as a stereo source and pan any channel to the left or right side... or you can use it as 4 (6 actually) mono inputs and use the routing matrix to choose which XLR input goes to which output. It's very flexible as you actually have 3 outputs - Main, Sub and Headphone, and each input can be patched separately left or right on each output. Sorry... I haven't explained that very well !!!
This mixer actually can record 6 channels but we normally use inputs 5/6 for reverse monitoring from the camera... this is the big advantage over the F8 especially when used as a field mixer.
Each SD card can be set to record up to 6 ISO tracks (pre-fader) as well as Left & Right (post-fader) simultaneously. These can be either MP3 or WAVs as required.
As I'm usually feeding a two channel camera while using the internal recordings as a backup, I set the mixer pots to 'trim' mode only while leaving the faders all set at +0-. Each channel is then routed to Main output left or right as required (and XLR'd to the camera) and then I record L&R to the SD cards as a WAV backup. It's only on special occasions that we ISO record the channels separately (pre-fader) as this is usually overkill and fiddly for what we need.
But then I rarely use more than two mics !!!
Take care,
Paul
Thanks very much Paul! Thats a great help.
Sam
I’m looking for a step by step video to show how to adjust output levels on multiple channels on the Zoom F4.
How about using right angle connector/cable for the Timecode inputs, would help a little? no solution for the SD card slot:)
Yes, that would definitely help a bit... still sit proud of the mixer as the end of the BNC is currently level with the bottom. Next mod I might do is cut down the height of the battery/SD card flap so I can remove the cards without unscrewing the whole thing... thinking aloud really ???
Good review
Cheers... appreciated. 👍
extrashot This is NTG4+ in iPhone 8
I need to buy zoomf4
Please check my video
Thank you so much
ua-cam.com/video/q-RnwZepgf8/v-deo.html
do you need a SD card to record audio on it or does it have internal recording?
Hi Janet, It only has the two internal SD card slots... so yes you'll need at least one card to record. Good news is you can simultaneously record different formats or tracks to either card. I often have tracks 1-6 recorded as high quality WAV's on one card, while recording L&R as backup MP3's to the other.
Fantastic thank you for taking the time to reply so quickly to my comment.
Cool vidéo. How to use F4 with caméra using time code and how does it work?
Thanks for the kind comment. timecode is just a clock with hours, minutes, seconds and frames (so it can change if you change frame rate). The clock transmits a digital signal, usually trough a BNC connector, so other pieces of kit can record and sync to the same clock. Equipment that uses timecode usually has timecode IN or OUT so you've got a choice of which piece of kit is the master and which other items slave from that. (ie. just connect timecode OUT on the master to timecode IN on each slave) If you are recording video from a camera (or multiple cameras) and separate sound... it really helps in the edit with syncing if everything is running to the same time, ideally frame accurate. By tradition, we normally set the time on the sound mixer and sync all the cameras to that. Because you don't want recorded time to jump around, it's also normal to set the timecode on each device to "Free Run" rather than "Record Run" otherwise the clock is only counting when you press record... which could be at a different time on each camera or mixer. Finally, if the clocks in each camera are good enough, you don't need to keep the BNC cables connected all day. You can just connect up - check that the clocks are in sync - and then disconnect. This is known as "Jam Syncing" and is usually good enough for most speech based recordings. The clock in the Zoom F4 is very good, so you'd probably only need to 'jam' it maybe a couple of times each day, just for safety. Hope that all makes sense - sorry if I've misunderstood the question and over explained the obvious!!!
Cheers, Paul
@@extrashot thanks. This is very helpfull.
The bag can be upgraded...but the bottom cables run through the side, no?
The BNC sockets point directly downward and end up level with the bottom of the mixer... which means any connected cable is going to stick straight out of the bottom. At first I thought I could get right angled plugs and then run short ends out to the side. Unfortunately, this means the mixer won't sit flat in the bag. It's not the end of the world... just depends how often you need to sync timecode to or from your cameras? It's fiddly that's all.
Good video man. I do not know why. It is really funny when you say, it is Such a shame!lollol))))))
I heard that you need to do the - unobvious - to plug it into the Nikon Z6 (and use a tentacle to sync the Time Code)
ooh... not sure what you mean George? Can you get timecode into/from the Z6 or do you just put it on an audio track?
(I don't know anything about the Z6!)
extrashot So the Z6 can provide a Time Code to sync Audio - in camera - with video... but you want to take audio - externally - for better quality. I used the Zoom H6 for a five minute scene with a number of takes for each actor...
It was impossible to sync up! The Z6 clock is simply NOT accurate enough to sync sound from several mic over several minutes.
Jude Curtis and Gerald Undone pointed out the inaccuracies of Prosumer cameras and the Zoom H6 doesn’t not generate Time Code.
So, the cheapest solution is the Zoom F4 and a pair of tentacles to use the F4’s (accurate) Time Code and create the base audio track into the Z6’s mic left channel... then sync all sound recording/takes to that baseline...
At least that’s the recommended solution. Haven’t been able to get the actors and support crew back together again... which is why you have to NAIL audio on set!!!
(And why all those commercials about “filmmaking” with Prosumer products don’t feature dialogue but music to underscore images... good audio for “talkies” is NOT easy or cheap or convenient!)
I use a Petrol PS607 bag (now made by Sachtler). The mixer doesn't sit on the bottom of the bag so you can run a right angle BNC in or out and through the side hole of the bag and Bob's yer uncle
That's great info, thanks Ian. Sounds exactly what I need.
dunno if i even need 4 in really. also i swore id never buy another zoom product after the multi-track i had, the menu system was appalling.
I must admit... the menu isn't the most user friendly on the F4 either. If I haven't used it for a while... there's always a short pause while I work it out again! However... I still find myself wanting the new F6 now with it's 32bit float !!! Maybe I'm a sucker for punishment but I love the value of what zoom offer?
@@extrashot I realise you replied a year ago but have you by any chance watched the Zoom/Sound Devices reviews by Curtis Judd(and others) and are you still wanting to (or have ) upgraded to the newer Zoom? cheers
@@doubledark2 I'm a big fan of Curtis Judd and have watched... I didn't regret the Zoom purchase at all, but did find myself wanting the Sound Devices! at the moment, I'm still happily using the Zoom F4 and it's still going strong. I'd really like to try the Zoom F6, with it's 32bit floating audio, but I can't justify the additional cost right now... there just hasn't been the work this year !!!
After a long time considering, I was ready to open the wallet. I looked online one night at the price of £530 for the F4 and case as package... next morning it was £689... Just a small matter of a 30% increase!
I have decided to wait for Brexit, a more favourable pound and for austerity to end. I should be ready to buy when the F99 is out!
The fall in the pound has really hit the price of all our kit recently. Hope it comes back soon or I'll still be using the old F4 when you've got the shiny new F99 !!!
If you get a better case then you don't have to pull it out to change batteries and SD cards. I have a Portabrace bag I have used with various recorders and the bottom access is not an issue
Thank you, I'll take a look... do you happen to know which bag you have for small mixers?... I've had a few Portabrace camera bags/covers over the years, and they've all lasted very well.
The one I am using is from PortaBrace, it was for my PMD67 so it's a bit oversized, but I am sure they have one designed for the F4/8. They last forever and the company will make alterations if you need them. The only downside is they are fairly pricey. There are other bags that I am sure are also great but I don't own them.
Take a look at this site www.trewaudio.com/product/porta-brace-ar-z8xc/
That is the Portabrace bag for the F series.
@@skoue4165 Thanks for that... I couldn't see a photo of the bottom on the PortaBrace site... I was looking at the AR-F4 but they are the same size mixer anyway. It looks as though that might solve the timecode BNC connection issue as well. I'm now running mine from a V-Lock so it's just the SD cards and timecode that wind me up. I'll try one out. Thank you.
Thank you for the input on the F4. I can see what you mean about the BNC connector. Maybe try a right angle BNC connector (www.cablesondemand.com/Library/InfoManage/Items.asp?product=CO-058RABNCX2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwierMBRCHARIsAHl9i4EsJ94GZtaUe6A1g_NNOCLRu_DOpWkWXDUBKaDzSSTvkkvwJKkA5rgaAljgEALw_wcB),
but again, as you state, the SD cards need to be accessed regularly.
Maybe a bag with a velcro opening on the bottom of the bag? Do they make one with an opening?
There are right angle BNC connectors ... no big deal there.
ORCA BAG is the solution for change battery, TC or SD card...
Thanks for the tip Raynier, I'll check it out....
Can you make a video on how to actually use the Zoom F4 instead of just talking about it? Show how to program it, how to record, how to ...?
Good idea Jon.... I'll work on that... thanks