Responding to the Pageau-Vervaeke Dialogue. The Quest for a Spiritual Home
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Following what I thought was the BEST @JonathanPageau @johnvervaeke conversation. • The Best Jonathan Page...
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Vandonk asks great questions!!
Ya I'm a fan of the Vandonk...
Reminds me of my Dad.
What struck me beyond the language that John is bringing, and the concepts the two men discussed, and even the relationship they share, is seeing two men speak with authority, humility, curiosity, intent to listen and learn, and from the heart. To see men relate at such a deep level, and not just talk concepts, modeled a path forward for men. And this conversation is more of the same. Different personalities and styles, and pulling each other forward. It’s hard for me to even find the words to express this. It’s so deep. Thank you, Paul, John, John, and Jonathan. And Kathryn, thank you for holding space.
Johnathan helped me by his symbolic interpretation of the Bible vs. Protestant literalism/nitpicking. I am an orthodox catechumen 8 months. My spiritual life and prayer have radically changed.
And Vervake has no floor…making Hope tenuous. All who follow will not have genuine hope in the end.
Can you give an example of "Protestant literalism" that you have discarded?
@@anselman3156 an example might be works doctrine. But generally Protestants tend to over interpret or claim they are “rightly dividing” scripture in many key areas that EO would defer to mystery. I hope that makes sense.
@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 If by "works doctrine" being literal you mean the notion that justifying faith does not involve good works, I would say that is a failure to take account of what the Bible literally says about what true justifying faith is. I do not know if Pageau has addressed that issue. Catholics and Anglo Catholics have used literal Scripture reading to refute a certain type of Protestant doctrine that entirely separates salvation from works, so I don't think the issue there is "literalism".
@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 A deeper exploration of the "works" question would be an interesting one in this corner. The differentiation to be made between the "works" that are unable to attain justification/salvation, and the "works" that necessarily accompany justification/salvation. It is a matter of carefully attending to the words of the Apostles, and so is a matter of being literal. I don't think Orthodoxy detaches you from that attention to the inspired words of Scripture.
Van Donk is so real. He asks questions in plain language, the questions we want answered, he's direct. I think of him as THE Van Donk. Man of action, amazing person. I always love to listen to him.
TRUE!
Dutch name, directness is in our culture I’ve been told. Maybe it’s in the genes too 😂
46:34 - almost until the end.
Very interesting monologue by Vervaeke about maturity!
Becoming mature by facing reality. So simple...
Vervaeke shows awareness of the names of the virtues. Is he aware that the Theological Virtues, Faith, Hope and Charity, are called Theological because they are infused by God, as a gift of His grace, and not something which a person can naturally attain. They are received by personal union with the personal God, and VVK lacks this acknowledgement of God as Person.
😺Observing the series of videos Paul of Sacramento is posting shows to me that all the people behind the scenes involved in the planning and execution of this conference did an excellent job
Thank you for sharing. Obviously being there is on another dimension, but these videos are very worthwhile viewing🐿
❤❤❤
Grim Griz detained me, otherwise.....
@@anselman3156
Tomorrow Tomorrow
I love you Tomorrow 🎻 🎶
Really enjoying these uploads, thanks for sharing them!
the spirit of this conversation was wonderful! thank you for sharing Paul
Thanks again!
The development of the thesaurus of words was great, but a thesaurus of concepts would be fantastic.
How fitting that an MMA commentator would usher in an era of long form conversation
I was reminded of Joe Rogan when an author I was listening to described people who use psychedelics having a false sense of having transcended something or having figured everything out. Rogan is so smart but he has this huge misconception.
It’s shocking how Protestants think Orthodoxy is not accessible. It is the most transforming faith.
I didn’t hear that at all
@@ChadTheGirlDad that came from the gentleman on JV’s right…his impression of EO to which Johnathan replied.
@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 I get the sense that is more of a projection then van donks actual question.
17:27 😘
😺I looked up the Jesus prayer just now. Then I learned that JV has four D’s of DIMENSION as well. Still struggling with remembering the 4 P’s of KNOWING, and recently the 4 P’s of something else: permanence, people, place, Person.
I will rest on the Jesus Prayer! That might be all that anyone needs!🐿
😺But I should try to push myself to strive to integrate everything presented, until I get worn out, and collapse back to the Jesus Prayer 🐿
@@mylesflaig148Procession and return.
This was definitely one of those psych-edelic ones! Awesome. They all came in hot hot 🥵
36:38 to 38:02 My question would be: are there any schools that (consciously) employ this tactic, already? I think, in times like ours where children are actually confronted with smartphones and the media draining their attention, this might be a necessity - to counterbalance that kind of development.
If anyone can help me I’m looking for jvv mentioning money as a compost pile
25:00 How do you determine for yourself if, through a mystical practice such as the Jesus Prayer in the Orthodox faith, you are experiencing the Holy Spirit and not a different spirit?
In the case of the yogis of the SRF (Self-Realization Fellowship), the mystical practice Swami Yogananda's disciples use to gain a subjective experience in Jesus' name is called "Jesus prayer meditation". It's also a chant using a short phrase similar to the Orthodox. The SRF mantra is "Lord Jesus, have mercy on me" repeated six times. The Orthodox prayer is " "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Both acknowledge Jesus as "Lord".
These yogis also believe that Jesus came as an actual historical person. The difference between their beliefs and scriptural doctrine is that they teach Jesus became a spirit, or "Christ consciousness," after his ascension into heaven, and that this consciousness is available to us on earth and gained through mystical practices.
If 1 John 4:2 and 1 Cor 12:3 were the absolute test in testing the spirits, with the knowledge that even demons believe, and the unsaved can confess Jesus as Lord (Matthew 7:21-23), then how would you test the validity of your own subjective mystical experiences through practices such as chanting when even non-Christian groups like the SRF do the same things and pass this scriptural test as well?
@truly blessed Wouldn't you say the inclusion of the phrase "have mercy on me" in the yogi prayer is a reflection of penitence?
@truly blessedHow can you tell between true experience and self-deception?
@truly blessed "Fruits" meaning???.... Like charity and things like that? Healing the sick and other wonderful works? SRF practitioners have all that covered. Would you consider them fellow Christians?
@@theblessed8152 I know many good spouses and parents who are not confessional Christians
@@theblessed8152 hmmm, never thought anything of the sort about you. I don’t know you, how can I say that?…
I simply concurred your assertion
Vervaeke was seriously channelling St Paul at the end there. Explaining the limitations of the Law and the need to transcend the Law into the pursuit of Christ through virtue. Virtue follows grace - the acceptance of imperfection and the need of Christ to move us beyond that imperfection. From that position of humility the fruit of the Spirit may grow.
It's telling that Vervaeke treats the saying of the Jesus Prayer as some kind of mechanical practice devoid of its essential confession of personal dependence on Jesus Christ as God and merciful Saviour. If your conception of Jesus is of "another Jesus" than that of Scripture, the prayer is meaningless and void of spiritual effect.
The irony is that the trinitarian Jesus is the other Jesus the apostles warned the church about in scripture. Luckily many or even most believers (according to Sam's statistics) that attend trinitarian churches aren't strict adherents to the trinitarian dogma. That is the hope I, as a Unitarian, hold on to regarding trinitarian Christians. That is also changing as Unitarianism has been on a growth curve (15% up each year I believe for the last 5 years) whereas trinitarianism is on the decline.
@@EmJay2022 Your rejection of the Jesus of Scripture is lamentable. Yours is "another Jesus".
@truly blessed As is apostasy.
@truly blessed Are you suggesting Unitarians are Satanists? Wow.
@@anselman3156 Apostasy sure is on the rise but God always preserves a remnant.
Vervake is the greatest modern philosopher but this is confusing for me to understand his " ecology of practices .
How is that any different from a gnostic sage like Jung who basically takes the position all religions are worth dabbling into like a buffet !
Well most of the major religions have a sect of Mysticism and Mysticism is rooted in Neo Platonism. Once you see it in one you can see it in all of them, most mystics have the same kind of formatting in their practices. He is giving the basis of them and you would choose which religion(if any) that you want to be apart of.
I’m sorry that I’m so hard JV, but I feel something not good with his spirit that is affecting him. It is not his awkwardness (believe me I understand…), but there a real, genuine spiritual lack despite what he practices.
Definitely not..... It's quite sad you're trying to discredit this man. Many great christians have said they seen christlike features in him so the majority of true scholars would disagree with your perspective.
@@trippyfolk7351 actually I think he is a good man who is doing good things, but still his spirit appears (at least as I have observed even in the Socrates series) to be not sufficiently poor/broken. It’s only an observation. God only knows.
And in spirit I accept your thoughts. Thank you.
I have picked up on his resistance to accepting the claims of Christ/Christianity because of his bad experience of a certain kind of Christian upbringing he had. I sense a sadness behind that resistance, and I can understand it. But there is a way through which he could find if he wills to pursue God. I think he does not conceive of God as being personal and offering the possibility of relationship.
@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 philosophy has always been a way to tap into the spirit logically and analytically, he is also a buddhist so I respectfully disagree
Vervaeke’s pedagogical system is not organic feeling. It feels like stage props for life.
The entire greek culture was based upon his philosophy.... Not to mention all of the different sects of Mysticism incorporate neo platonism. So its much more then ""props"" I encourage you to research the actual philosophy. He is simply adding to it. The philosophy brought us democracy while the religions kept us trapped in monarchy so historically speaking and theologically you are wrong.
If you look across the west, democracy and hyper individualism has not been a friend to Christianity in the long run.
@@trippyfolk7351 But I reject Athens and its democracy
@@DogOneIsOpen Everyone thinks they are King or Pope, if not G-d.
@@williambranch4283 regardless of if you reject it or not the greeks invented democracy
This comment section reliably makes me happy to not be christian, to be honest.
Martial arts in the West was part of New Age. Christians use swords and axes ;-)
The Marquess of Queensbury would disagree. Various forms of boxing and wrestling have been around in Europe since ancient Greece