'Toxic work culture' stopping Post Office scandal victims speaking out, says Private Eye journalist
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- Andrew Marr speaks to Private Eye journalist Richard Brooks, who was one of the first journalists to cover the Post Office scandal, about Rishi Sunak's recent announcement of a mass exoneration of postmasters and postmistresses involved in the case.
Brooks raises concerns about the details of the compensation scheme and emphasises the need to clarify how it will be implemented and what victims need to do. He also highlights the difficulty of speaking out in a toxic work culture and suggests the importance of incentivising and rewarding whistleblowing to encourage more people to speak out.
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They knew the system didn't work and stole money off people which was used as bonuses so the money should come those who knew and covered up or went after innocent people for commission knowing they were innocent but went ahead anyway. Absolutely disgusting.
The immediate restoration of Legal Aid!
I wondered where this money went? Beyond disgraceful!
Currently, the annual audit/report and accounts haven’t been queried. Why didn’t the external auditors not notice there was something odd about sums of monies coming in from subpostmasters own bank accts.
Same old story of corporate crime, no repercussions, the taxpayer pays the fine.
Hands up all those who think Fujitsu is paying certain Tories for all these contracts and cover-ups?
I've no doubt they offered sweeteners to people on all sides if it was worth their while. Companies will work with whoever is in power (and Fujitsu's involvement in public service IT spans governments of all colours).
The last CEO is married to a member of the cabinet.
I'm sure all contracts and retribution for poor service are fine.
Look at Markle, not these people...😉
More important is probably a pre existing knowledge of flaws in software, and using it for the purpose of poltics.
99.99% .
@@andrewoliver8930
Who is this married couple (the CEO and Cabinet member) and who on earth is Markle?
Fujitsu messed up a system for NHS Scotland and had to repay everything they had been paid.
I doubt that will happen in England.
This is our opportunity to show that bullying, corrupt systems have no place in our society. Or at least in the society we want.
How can you be sure that this society is what we want？ 😂
That'll be a tall order seeing as human history is one of bullying, corrupt systems benefitting the few over the many, every concession the many have ever recieved has been hard won with blood. Until positions of power no longer attract the self important, morally bankrupt crooks that it always has, expect to pay the same price as our ancestors.
Be careful what you wish for. It may be possible to eliminate bullying, corrupt systems but you can be sure that there will always be bullying, corrupt people who will fill the gap. Regardless of what system you have, there will always be those who will work out how to game it to their advantage.
@@jameshara8994You can’t. But if we do want it, not is the time to show as such.
The next to be investigated should be the NHS where many lives have been ruined and deaths. Boards, Chair and CEO with their state funded legal teams are too powerful for single employees to take on, even if the employee is in the right. The withholding of key documents or massively redacted documents is standard practice in the NHS.
It simply shameful and corrupt when the inept flotsam and jetsam of the Board level directors, Chair & CEO, just float from one position to another at the very top.
Fujitsu pressured the British government to implement the Horizon system in the late 90s, threatening the UK and stating that trade relations between the UK and Japan would be impacted if Fujitsu did not get the Post Office contract. This scandal goes much deeper than many are aware of. Fujitsu were the ones remotely accessing the subpostmaster systems.
they also used to run the UK rail ticketing services for many TOCs (the machines in the ticket windows and the devices the staff use on trains) but they lost the contracts for being absolutely shocking.
That is amazing if correct. How are you certain?
By why would Fujitsu control it remotely and why does it matter?
@@pastyman001I work for their competitor :)
@@themadakh3229remote access is common on managed services.
Fujitsu need to be fined and there should be prison sentences
Post Office management should be fined too.
@darrylsugg7230 Imprisoned for knowingly robbing their staff and ruining their lives.
@@andrewoliver8930 Totally agree.
If you try to prosecute these big companies, they invariably blame it on the little man and you’ll see some very junior and hard working people being sent to prison, not those in charge at the very top; happens every time.
I read that Fujitsu warned the then Royal Mail that more than one terminal together would not work properly.
If Fujitsu are putting back doors in their software and lying about it. We should make them pay the compensation bill and look at banning them from government contracts.
Iv seen lives ruined and lives live from DWP decisions and negligence. They need justice too, they have no power
'Skint little people' have always had very little representation.
@@Humanity101-zp4sq Blame the little people for fraud whilst the real theft is happening at the top.
This injustice is not complete until the victims are compensated properly, their names cleared publicly, and those responsible from POL and Fujistu are held to account financially and criminally.
Fujitsu is not a UK company, how do you prosecute folks in Japan? Your living in a dream world.
@@dorrisday1518 Fujitsu Service Limited is an incorporated entity in the UK (in fact they are based in Bracknell - have a huge office there)- and therefore are subject to UK law. I am no expert here - but there may be something in their contracts with the government addressing this and can open them up for liability.
(Generally speaking there are basic rules to accounting systems, or systems that handle monetary transactions that your IT provider adheres to - and this feels to me like they failed at this)
@@dorrisday1518they are considering compensation as they have been embarrassed. And you do realise there was/is a UK HQ? Those are the people who lied to the sub post masters. And it’s YOU’RE.
Fujitsu and the post office should pay in full. Richard Brookes has been at this for 11 years. Well dome Private Eye and computer weekly
The gestapo is alive and kicking within the post office
And a lot of other major companies, they get too big these days
At its peak there were over 9,000 Post Office Local branches being operated as franchises of sorts by private retailers. The new owners (post 2011 privatisation) ended the franchise arrangement because they hoped that people would just travel further and use official post offices, internalising the small profits previously made by corner shops and mini markets. Just another case of privatisation gone wrong (or, perhaps, gone right)
If your local Post Office has closed, now you know why...
Union representatives are often complicit in the behaviour described. They are more interested in keeping the 'peace' than real justice. 'Kicking the hornet's nest' can be an expensive business!
Compensation shoud come from Fujisu's and Royal Mail's profits and CEOs sallaries and bonuses, not the taxpayer's pockets. But of course Royal Mail will just increase their prices and decrease service levels to make up their profits.
royal mail and the post office are seperate entities
@@anonymousone6075 they weren't for some of the time this was going on.
@@anonymousone6075too much nuance, too much! The people can not compute! 😂
More unionisation of workers is what we need to protect us. Solidarity to all those affected by this terrible crime ❤
Didn't the Union turn their backs on these people too?
And the immediate restoration of Legal Aid.
The unions let them down too - which many can relate to with employment disputes.
@@mp71001 unfortunately yes, mine were chocolate teapot quality. They had much sharper teeth before they were kettled by the Tories.
Unions were also complicit in this .
I worked at Royal mail for over 30 year if you rocked the boat you were classed as a trouble maker and your time at work was made very uncomfortable. This will comes as no surprise to people who worked or still work at this rotten company
It's everywhere, I worked for major supermarket and if certain managers didn't like you in any way they would set those people up saying they had stolen from the tills etc, when they had not. I saw it happen and again no one cared or listened too fearful of them being next.
It's a vile working environment in many many places these days bullying narcisistic, little hitlers given the slightest bit of power and it goes to thier head giving them all manor of ways to hurt those below. Yet the company allows this to continue.
All this is absolutely wrong how can they treat our post office workers with such contempt. What happened to innocent till proven guilty the big wigs already made their minds up. So many lives destroyed for absolutely nothing. My heart goes out to them all and i hope that they can find some sort of peace soon. Our post office workers are the back bone in our society. Give them what they are asking for and give them justice.
Why are we, the taxpayers, fundung the jurisprudence system used for private prosecutions? No public trial, no publically funded judge, no prosecution.
Given the Post Office's shenanigan's which lead to these people being prosecuted and given that people were all too aware that their computer system was making errors should not those who were on the board of the Post Office be prosecuted for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
And false imprisonment, fraud etc.
In the USA the SEC pays whistleblowers a percentage of any fine levied.
It's a great idea and we should do that for all whistleblowers in the UK too.
I feel so sorry for the poor victims of this mess!
Id love to see the business case for the original Horizon system. I'm guessing that 'reducing losses due to fraud' was one of the main benefits that helped get the case approved.
If im right about this... then it explains a great deal of this history.
Nobody seems to be talking about the money taken from the victims who paid over the sums allegedly missing. Thousands did that and weren't prosecuted. Why hasn't the Post Office refunded them with interest?
These same systems are in place in the NHS and schools. You have huge boards of directors with armies of powerful data administrators who now run so call ed privatised govt funded firms. Qualified doctors, nurses and teachers are constantly put under stress by people with empty job titles whose main role is to write policies and go on training courses run by govt funded private contractors to reinforce the latest ban against freedom of speech. These people are the only ones allowed to ‘communicate’ with the media hence they too never get to hear the truth until too late for far too many. In my field I have had to stand by and watch the ruthless and the greedy stamp on the hardworking, the decent and gentle souls until they become something they don’t recognise anymore. It toxic everywhere because the wrong people are given the most power with no balance or checks.
Major decisions concerning the Post Office & Royal Mail should be returned to the hands of the Crown.
It used to be that the price of stamps couldn't really be changed unless it had Royal approval but since this was changed we now pay an extortionate price for 1st and 2nd class postage stamps in the UK.
Absolutely outrageous
Lack of oversight made this happen. I don't believe the crown has the talent or money to be able to do this well. That time is long past.
and we have a government who want to take more rights off workers,bring on the next scandal
The main thing that needs to be done to open up things and enable whistleblowers is that anybody in a position of authority who can be proved to intimidate or punish whistleblowers should be severely penalised. It should be their careers which get derailed.
OK, privatisation doesn’t work. We knew this already.
what’s so unsettling is the way that so many middle managers - unknowns, themselves very ordinary people - were central to the way everything was covered up. Why? Well could it be that financial incentives were offered for successful prosecutions…
Operant conditioning works well on ordinary 'biddable' people. See Skinner et al.
Inertia, keeping yourself away from any awkward situations etc. There is little to be gained by challenging anything in large companies. Accepting mediocrity around you. Etc etc
There is no way a country should loose control over their public entities. Private companies will never “ do the right thing”. It is about money not people or ethical behaviour.
I hope this 'government' isn't going to keep these powers to pardon whomever they please. The post masters deserve a pardon but the 'government' criminals that are currently in power may end up abusing this for their own nefarious ends.
Grow up
Shouldn't all those who lied, and prosected others, when they knew the systems were faulty, be charged with Diverting the Course of Justice, Perjury, Causing Wilful Harm etc?
You think this will be the end of the matter, what’s wrong with you, the IT system is still in place, there are still 32 missed connections per day causing postmasters problems now every day. the exoneration is only for those convicted how many more have kept quiet out of shame, paid all of the family savings to pay the post office and still the post office is not a profitable business, you think this is the end of the matter? the media need to get a move on, but nothing like our representatives and post office bosses need to do things right
Worked in IT up to board level in billion $ corps over 20 years. Very little chance in my opinion that the PO and Fujitsu management are innocent of wrongdoing; the question is the extent of the incompetence and criminality. IT systems of this type [should] have detailed audit trails. People in the internal audit department of the PO would have gone through the financial records with a fine toothcomb. The notion that the prosecutions were somehow mistakenly carried out by a well-intentioned PO is in my opinion farcical. Somebody in there may well have known the prosecutions were unjustified. The possible implication is that the prosecutions were carried out using data CONSTRUCTED to show the guilt of the postmasters.
A plausible scenario one might imagine in similar circumstances might be:
- Internal high-stakes fighting over a failing project, money is going missing
- Internally acceptable proof of fraud by retail managers found
- Might well have been a mistake that was pounced on by under-pressure managers
- Some managers defend the postmasters, political infighting begins, positions harden, stakes rise
- Prosecutions mooted
- Managers double down, if they back out now its a career-ending matter
The rest is history.
In my opinion responsibility goes right to the top even if culpability does not, and jail time is justified. The power of big business and the state was used against individuals and that is unacceptable and the victims deserve justice. A bunch of wealthy mangers and board members retiring to a nice pension in disgrace is insufficient.
A message needs to be sent out to the effect that powerful people and powerful businesses and institutions need to be extraordinarily careful and extraordinarily reticent when they wield their power. "First, do no harm".
A pardon isn't overturning wrongful convictions, or false admissions under extreme duress and with lies told to the victims.
The problem I see with this story is that I have witnessed the same sort of toxic culture of company men/women in other public institutions. Where, what gets deemed internal dissent, but is more reasonably called intellectual honesty and integrity, is quashed through unjust means.
Where toeing the line is more important than expertise and truth.
Sunak...Infosys....Fujitsu...Horizon. Ask how are these connected.
I mean, it's true - legally we don't have freedom of speech in the UK. That's the USA. We have freedom of expression. That doesn't help the poor post employees of course.
SCOTLAND
When will she get justice Andy.?⚖️🏴
Your right Andrew.
Criminalise those actually reaponsible! Dont just pat them on the back for handing back their nighthoods...
If Fujitsu doesn’t have to pay out to these people AND the British taxpayer (to compensate for all the costs that they have inflicted on the taxpayers of this country so far and ongoing) then this country is a clown show.
If you knew the system was already broken and you knew who would get the blame do you think anyone was stealing and then blaming the post masters?
I could deffo see that being something that happened too.
And the government just pushed through legislation to do similar to people on benefits, with an in house prosecution system.
What are the 200 contracts I think we all need to know asap.
Is there something else happening under our noses.
A government foisting a highly untested policy on a body of people which goes horribly wrong with devastating consequences. Yes, the horizon programme but it could easily be the dash to net zero
Did the government sign a fujitsu eula? If so theres no call for compensation.
Given the mistakes made by Fujitsu in their Horizon software, and acknowledged as safe and accurate, but now seen to be anything but, I am wondering now about such things as the National Defence computer system, also built by them.
In times of real need will we find flaws in that?
It was all run on the tory culture of profit before everything else, and that includes lives.
It should be at least £2 billion, and Fujitsu should cover the bill.
The compensation should be entirely paid for by the Post Office, their shareholders and their system suppliers no matter who. And they should also be denied any public funds to pay for the services of some of the most expensive lawyers in the country they have engaged to drive down the compensation claims.
The sole shareholder in the post office is the government, which would mean the taxpayers would pay the compensation. I'd prefer it if Fujitsu were to pay the compensation because they knew that Horizon was a s#!t show but continued to say it was OK.
The post office also knew the software was faulty but continued to prosecute sub-postmasters, so those within the post office who chose that course should be tried for giving false evidence. Prison sentences should reflect the untold misery they caused to hundreds of innocent people.
Ok so now what about the 3000 iPP prisoners
Fujitsu must be held to account and made to pay.
Fujitsu should pay. Tired of us bailing out these private companies. Private investigators that failed should also face consequences.
The software company should have known n be accountable
I read that Fujitsu warned them the system wouldn't work properly if they were more than one terminal.
Hey LBC - who titled this video? The Private Eye journalist wasn't saying that the culture at the post office stopped victims from speaking out. He said that the culture at Fujitsu prevented workers who knew that there were problems with their systems in the field from raising the issues with higher ups at the company.
Not for the people that died
This is NOT an issue for the taxpayer. Fujitsu knowingly lied as did the Post Office - they MUST be made to pay the compensation!
In the NHS, whistle-blowers are punished. They are refused employment for being disloyal.
Wasn’t Fujitsu running the 10 bn failed NHS system too?
Yes and No, Fujitsu were one of major suppliers perhaps 12/13 years ago but they walked away as result of the NHS Management Boards (I forget the correct name from back then) constantly changing the specifications and requirements, it reached a point where even Fujitsu said 'enough is enough'. It cost them £350m at the time and all UK pay rises and bonuses were cancelled for a couple of years. They subsequently sued HMG and in private negotiaitions are believed to have been paid c.70m in compensation by HMG.
People who know how to listen are vary rare these days.
Here’s a thought what if the post office system was hacked from the outside and the money was stolen and somebody has got away with millions has anybody actually looked into this?
No. It’s clearly obvious to anyone that Horizon was flawed
If the Japanese Government will not apologise for mistreating British 2ndWW prisoners why would Fujitsui apologise for this simple "error".
No , tax payers should not pay for the post office' mistake.
Was the union independent or one of these work "forums".
Why now,why not back when BBCr4 aired their Horizon documentary?. 🤔
Its like that throughout all the parts of the old gpo so im told.
don't worry andy, we're also being censored for reporting on starmers failure to safeguard the public interest, and his similar failure to prosecute savvy !
Pennies don't pass LIBERTY thieved. Ever done any bird without genuine reason, Andrew??
You might need more staff
The British voters have done this to themselves, no one else
The cure for freedom of speech inside companies is a functioning market for labour; if people can easily leave companies for other jobs, internal cultures quickly improve. While people have no alternative but to cling to the job they have, problems with internal corporate cultures will continue regardless of other factors. Part of how to achieve this is to reduce the size of companies in Britain, this has a number of positive and negative effects but amongst the positive effects is to reduce the power of management over the workforce.
don't worry andy, we're being censored for pointing out starmers failure to safeguard the public interest as well
Neuberger
The only reason why we don’t have legislation to protect whistleblowers is because the government doesn’t want there to be such a thing as whistleblowers!
There is legislation already and has been for ages. Do you do anything yourself? How did that work out
@@Noellegable That legislation is extremely flawed. I didn’t want to go into the nitty gritty as to what needs to be done for whistleblower protection to be adequate enough to fulfil the needs of ordinary workers and the general public.
With respect I disagree with this because when the scandal happened people were free to say whatever they want. The toxic work culture and infringement on free speech is a more recent thing.
As usual, LBC listeners are wrong and blame the Tories. This all happened under Labour.
Definitely no conflict of interest in Rishi's Sec of State for Education being married to the UK CEO of Fujitsu. 😂
Quite a pattern developing of senior Tories being married to CEOs of problematic businesses. Problematic for taxpayers that is.
Not the troughers obvs.
Quite. This government is corrupt, descending from the multiple corrupt governments before it .. ppe, knighthoods, proroguing parliament, trusses budget which made her mates a packet. Dont worry, once labour are in power we wont be able to move for hearing how 'responsible' a tory government is
Of course we have freedom of speech.. what we need though is also the ability to listen.
Speaking from experience, try raising a grievance against your manager or director and come back here in a few months to a year. Yes, you are free to say it, you are not free of the consequences.
Blame the EU procurment process previous government project failures cannot be taken in.any new bid tender, its why these private. Companies can survive
don't worry andy, we're being censored for pointing out starmers failure to safeguard the public interest as well
not to mention starmers 2009 debacle
Rewarding "whistleblowers" is even more Totalitarian !!! Fight totalitarianism with totalitarianism, why don't you.
Every one who helped cover this up must go to jail its the only way to stop corporate criminals and they schould never ever do the investigation that schould apply all across the board time and time the lies and cover up are dissgrace and the only way is independent citizens that have no favours for any investigation