What I believe you're saying is that it can be tied "mid-line" (or as you said, "on line"). Yes, but only if you use the first tying method! I'm going to pin this comment because it's important! Hugs!
@@Knot-orious Can this knot be used as a running Double Dragon for use as a retrievable anchor? I've always been taught to use the Alpine Butterfly, but I wonder if the Double Dragon has enough bulk to be used in this application?
I noticed that you can tie this knot lefty or righty. I did exactly the opposite and mirrored yours. Aldo I added more rounds or turns just to see and made a couple of discoveries. Hope all is well with you. Even bigger huggs
Curious as to what you've discovered. Feel free to hit me up via email! You already know the address! =-D Yes, I have learned how to tie this knot from a variety of different orientations. You only need to remember one orientation for each tying method and, if I could suggest one over the other, I would recommend the second method!
@alicanay1 Soy plenamente consciente de ello. El término técnico para esto es quiralidad; que se refiere a la versión diestra de un nudo versus la versión zurda de un nudo. ¿Por qué comentan esto? ¿A qué se refiere esto? Solo preguntaba. EDIT: Ah, ya veo. Estabas hablando con el cartel original, pero me etiquetaste por accidente.
Love it! I often find myself tying a mid-line loop on a bull rope to pull with my tractor - how well does this knot untie after very heavy loading compared with, say, a bowline on a bight? It appears to be at least as easy to tie. I love the alpine butterfly in general, but it's a real bear to untie after that kind of load, so I'm on the lookout for a new favorite mid-line loop for that type of use. Quick suggestion while I'm at it: adding chapters to your long-form videos would be great!
This knot unties rather easily compared to other loop knots. Maybe not as easily as the bowline on a bight, but definitely as easy as a bowline with a yosemite finish or a bowline with a scott's locked finish! Just break the collar that goes around the loop and push the loop strands into the knot and then push the working end back into the two coils an it comes undone so easily after being heavily loaded! You make a good point about adding chapters! I'll do my best to start doing that going forward. I'll add the chapters in the description for the videos! EXCELLENT suggestion! Thank you! Always looking for a new way to improve engagement and I'm always paying attention to what my viewers suggest to me! So I promise I am taking yours to heart!
Knotorious, excellent demonstration of how to tie a Double Dragon. Why isn't this knot taught to arborists? It is superior to the bowline in stability. I especially like the 2nd method you demonstrate using a Munter Hitch to begin the knot. As a former rock climber, I'm very familiar with the Munter, which is an alternative belay hitch for both rock climbers and arborists if all you have is a carabiner. Thanks for another well done video!
I'm not entirely certain why this knot isn't more popular than it actually should be! It's easily my favorite fixed loop knot and you can create it in running form just like a running bowline, but with twice the security! I'm not sure why this knot isn't more popular among arborists! I'm definitely doing my part to help popularize it as best as I can! I use it all of the time! Yes, the name for the formation I had was a "munter." Not sure how that evaded me at the time! =-P Thanks for all of your comments!
@@Knot-orious I am surprised as well. Also my favorite loop knot. I learned it for cave rescue. And learned it can also be tied as a double loop in a similar way to the double Alpine butterfly. It has many advantages over the bowline. For example it can be tied without the tail. The tale is not necessary for it to be secure and life supporting. Hence the advantages in rescue. It's also more efficient than the figure 8 which requires more rope. It also holds in wet (cave) and slippery (mud) conditions. It can be tied without dressing and setting and still be life supporting therefore it's more forgiving in emergencies. If dressed and set it holds in bungee cord as well. Over the years I've tried this knot in every rope material that I could find including metals wires and chain. My favorite knot by a mile.
@@GarryNichols Great summary of many of the Double Dragon's benefits over the bowline, and over many other loop knots as well. It definitely is one of the most underrated knots and it is my favorite also for good reason. Far superior to the Bowline in many regards and I would encourage that anyone looking for the highest quality loop knot should take the time to learn how to tie the Double Dragon! Thanks for the great comment! I completely agree with everything you had to say! =-D
Oh dragon knots one of my favourite knotting concepts!I think it would be more accurate to set it against the double or round turn bowline ABOK#1013., because afterall, double dragon is a different loading profile of the (TIB) version of a round turn bowline. TIB=tiable in the bight ,tied or untied without access to either end. TIB RT bwl= Round turn bwl with the tail tucked back through its collar.
This is a very interesting observation and I completely agree with your assertions. It really is pretty unfair to compare the Double Dragon with the common bowline, and I don't believe I did so in my video other than to point out how much more secure the Double Dragon is. Isn't a Double Bowline the same know as a Round Turn Bowline? I always thought they were. But even if we compare the Double Dragon again the aforementioned, I still would never even consider recommending that anyone use those knots for life support applications, whereas the I feel 100% confident that the Double Dragon can be used for life support.
@@Knot-orious Of course you didn't proceed to such a comparison, but also you were quite right to highlight the superiority of double dragon against the common 1010 bwl in terms of security and stability. I meant that if one was to set it against some knot, that knot would better be the RT bwl or double bwl if you like (same knot), for the very reason that i mentioned previously. As for life support applications, i've read somewhere that many german climbers use the double bowline as a tie-in knot supported with a back up knot. In my view, it is a rather infeasible endeavour to be able to entice someone to deviate from an F8 for life critical applications, even if you provide the appropriate proof about the functionality of your proposed substitute knot. For my part, however, i don't concur to that approach, but i fully understand the psychological part behind this "foolproof" of an F8. By the way, nice demonstration of both tying methods. Keep up the good work!We are very few (knot enthusiasts) in this world.😊
The F8 (that's Figure 8 for anyone reading this who doesn't understand knot shorthand) is an extremely strong, secure and dependable knot when someone needs a knot for life support applications. However, I agree with you that it certainly isn't the only option out there for life critical situations. Everything from an Alpine Butterfly to a Scott's Locked Bowline to the Double Dragon to the Poacher's termination knot are all perfectly acceptable knots that a climber can choose from and use for life support in a climbing system. I try not to limit myself to one knot and, instead, I select a suitable knot based on the situation and setting. Anyways, this is to say that I am in perfect agreement with you! Thanks for saying that you enjoyed my demonstrations! Unlike many other knot channels that attempt to create quick, brief tying demos without much discussion so that their viewer retention numbers stay high, I have no problem taking as long as it takes to discuss every knot I cover and to take my time demo'ing the tying method. It hurts my stats, but I'm not here for UA-cam fame. I came here to educate! I'll definitely be trying to keep up the good work! I have a lot on my plate lately and so I've only made one new video in the last month. Might take a break from YouTubing for a little bit, but I'll make an announcement on my channel if I go through with it. I'm burnt out after 2 years of content creation and generating nearly 400 videos. It's good to see you in the comments section again! Feel free to hit me up via email if you ever want to talk knots. It has changed since you last emailed me and it's now knotorious.info@gmail.com. It's nice to talk with someone intelligent who clearly understands knots.
No, the Double Dragon was created by someone else! I merely demonstrate both tying methods in this video and I may be the first ever to demonstrate how to use both methods to connect a piece of loose or fixed hardware (that exists in one video). I've never seen anyone use method #1 to show how to attach hardware!
I can't open your link for some reason, but from what I can tell, the flying Bowline is basically a Single Dragon (if I were to give it a name). I has one wrap less than the Double Dragon. Keen observation on your part. I honestly was previously unaware of the flying Bowline.
To me there is an easier variation on your second method, instead of making a loop, folding it under, and passing the tail back through. What I do is make a bight, then pull another bight through the first. This has the benefit of being able to keep things pinched with the left hand and it helps keep the tail on the correct side of the loop.
It's hard for me to fully appreciate your variation without seeing it tied in front of me. Do you know of any videos online that demonstrate this tying method? I'd love to see it. I'm all for "easier" and have an unrelenting desire to learn and teach new tying methods. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I look forward, hopefully, to a link or two. I appreciate your insight. =-D
@Knot-orious I'm sorry, but I tried searching and can't find it anywhere. Of course, I realized after I typed the comment that my method doesn't give the ability to thread it through hardware.
I uploaded a short of how I tie it. I apologize for the shaky hands and bad video. I've never tied anything looking through a phone screen. ua-cam.com/video/mxNQEPDJKPk/v-deo.htmlsi=qumt3KkKBs-y8pzw
You're good, homie. I've got really shaky hands and I get crap for it all the time in my comments section. I have a Vitamin B deficiency. That's what causes the shaking. With that out of the way, wow, I'm impressed. I've NEVER seen that tying method before. Thank you for sharing this with me and for uploading a video to help me visualize this method. Also, you're wrong about hardware not being able to be installed using this method. You can install it both with a loose piece of hardware AND with hardware that is attached to a wall or tree or rock face. Great! I'm definitely going to make a video about this technique! I'll give you credit for sharing it with me since I always like to give credit to my subscribers who help me create content. Thank you so much! Can you figure out how to install the hardware? If you can't, you'll see how in my video when I finally have time to make it. Very busy lately. But I'll find the time.
@@Knot-orious The only way I can think of for hardware is to pull the second bite all the way through, run the tail through the hardware, them put back within the first bite. Kind of combining my setup and your finish.
Excellent video. You compared it to the bowline, another video asserts the Angler's Knot is better than the Bowline. Is the rating based on application? For anyone as impatient as I (I know), the second method begins at 9:12 mark. ua-cam.com/video/OJq-Q1PWZ6w/v-deo.html
@@joejoe-lb6bw The Anglers loop is, in my opinion and experience, inferior to the Double Dragon! Mostly because it was originally a fishing knot and designed to jam. This makes it much harder to untie, sometimes even becoming a knife knot, when heavily loaded. The double dragon is resistant to jamming. I forget what my parallel was to the bowline, but I can tell you without hesitation that the Double Dragon is more secure than the Bowline, even capable of life support applications without any additional finishes. Glad you liked the video! Let me know if you have anymore questions! If you enjoyed this video, I have almost 400 videos and Shorts on my channel! If you ever want to talk knots, hit me up at my email in my "about" section!
@@Knot-orious Thanks for taking the time to give such a complete answer. I'm new to knots, but as a home owner I found I have to gain some knowledge of this subject. My first and only real knot was the square knot. :)
@@joejoe-lb6bw You're very welcome. The square knot seems simple, but it can definitely be tied incorrectly! Keep up the learning and you'll be a knot Jedi like me in no time haha
I would not trust this loop knot without tying a 2 or 3 turn stopper knot to finish it of in a life critical situation. You can also make it a Triple Dragon for extra friction holding. I like to tie the Double Dragon loop the same way I tie the Perfection loop but instead of passing the end through the other loop I pass it behind and through the loop
It is a great knot and can be tied in line too , hugs my friend
What I believe you're saying is that it can be tied "mid-line" (or as you said, "on line"). Yes, but only if you use the first tying method! I'm going to pin this comment because it's important! Hugs!
@@Knot-orious in line , sorry
ua-cam.com/users/shortsrIZwflWxwE0?si=m9LUpmxcACGPp6rb
@@Knot-orious sorry, in line 🙋
"In-line" is maybe more accurate than "mid-line," but both are correct. I think they are synonyms. But I'll look into that.
@@Knot-orious Can this knot be used as a running Double Dragon for use as a retrievable anchor? I've always been taught to use the Alpine Butterfly, but I wonder if the Double Dragon has enough bulk to be used in this application?
I noticed that you can tie this knot lefty or righty. I did exactly the opposite and mirrored yours. Aldo I added more rounds or turns just to see and made a couple of discoveries. Hope all is well with you. Even bigger huggs
Curious as to what you've discovered. Feel free to hit me up via email! You already know the address! =-D Yes, I have learned how to tie this knot from a variety of different orientations. You only need to remember one orientation for each tying method and, if I could suggest one over the other, I would recommend the second method!
Amigo todos los nudos, todos, pueden realizarse a la "derecha" o a la"izquierda" absolutamente todos
@alicanay1 Soy plenamente consciente de ello. El término técnico para esto es quiralidad; que se refiere a la versión diestra de un nudo versus la versión zurda de un nudo. ¿Por qué comentan esto? ¿A qué se refiere esto? Solo preguntaba. EDIT: Ah, ya veo. Estabas hablando con el cartel original, pero me etiquetaste por accidente.
Love it! I often find myself tying a mid-line loop on a bull rope to pull with my tractor - how well does this knot untie after very heavy loading compared with, say, a bowline on a bight? It appears to be at least as easy to tie. I love the alpine butterfly in general, but it's a real bear to untie after that kind of load, so I'm on the lookout for a new favorite mid-line loop for that type of use.
Quick suggestion while I'm at it: adding chapters to your long-form videos would be great!
This knot unties rather easily compared to other loop knots. Maybe not as easily as the bowline on a bight, but definitely as easy as a bowline with a yosemite finish or a bowline with a scott's locked finish! Just break the collar that goes around the loop and push the loop strands into the knot and then push the working end back into the two coils an it comes undone so easily after being heavily loaded!
You make a good point about adding chapters! I'll do my best to start doing that going forward. I'll add the chapters in the description for the videos! EXCELLENT suggestion! Thank you! Always looking for a new way to improve engagement and I'm always paying attention to what my viewers suggest to me! So I promise I am taking yours to heart!
Knotorious, excellent demonstration of how to tie a Double Dragon. Why isn't this knot taught to arborists? It is superior to the bowline in stability. I especially like the 2nd method you demonstrate using a Munter Hitch to begin the knot. As a former rock climber, I'm very familiar with the Munter, which is an alternative belay hitch for both rock climbers and arborists if all you have is a carabiner. Thanks for another well done video!
I'm not entirely certain why this knot isn't more popular than it actually should be! It's easily my favorite fixed loop knot and you can create it in running form just like a running bowline, but with twice the security! I'm not sure why this knot isn't more popular among arborists! I'm definitely doing my part to help popularize it as best as I can! I use it all of the time! Yes, the name for the formation I had was a "munter." Not sure how that evaded me at the time! =-P Thanks for all of your comments!
@@Knot-orious I am surprised as well. Also my favorite loop knot. I learned it for cave rescue. And learned it can also be tied as a double loop in a similar way to the double Alpine butterfly. It has many advantages over the bowline. For example it can be tied without the tail. The tale is not necessary for it to be secure and life supporting. Hence the advantages in rescue. It's also more efficient than the figure 8 which requires more rope. It also holds in wet (cave) and slippery (mud) conditions. It can be tied without dressing and setting and still be life supporting therefore it's more forgiving in emergencies. If dressed and set it holds in bungee cord as well. Over the years I've tried this knot in every rope material that I could find including metals wires and chain. My favorite knot by a mile.
@@GarryNichols Great summary of many of the Double Dragon's benefits over the bowline, and over many other loop knots as well. It definitely is one of the most underrated knots and it is my favorite also for good reason. Far superior to the Bowline in many regards and I would encourage that anyone looking for the highest quality loop knot should take the time to learn how to tie the Double Dragon! Thanks for the great comment! I completely agree with everything you had to say! =-D
Oh dragon knots one of my favourite knotting concepts!I think it would be more accurate to set it against the double or round turn bowline ABOK#1013., because afterall, double dragon is a different loading profile of the (TIB) version of a round turn bowline.
TIB=tiable in the bight ,tied or untied without access to either end.
TIB RT bwl= Round turn bwl with the tail tucked back through its collar.
This is a very interesting observation and I completely agree with your assertions. It really is pretty unfair to compare the Double Dragon with the common bowline, and I don't believe I did so in my video other than to point out how much more secure the Double Dragon is. Isn't a Double Bowline the same know as a Round Turn Bowline? I always thought they were. But even if we compare the Double Dragon again the aforementioned, I still would never even consider recommending that anyone use those knots for life support applications, whereas the I feel 100% confident that the Double Dragon can be used for life support.
@@Knot-orious Of course you didn't proceed to such a comparison, but also you were quite right to highlight the superiority of double dragon against the common 1010 bwl in terms of security and stability.
I meant that if one was to set it against some knot, that knot would better be the RT bwl or double bwl if you like (same knot), for the very reason that i mentioned previously.
As for life support applications, i've read somewhere that many german climbers use the double bowline as a tie-in knot supported with a back up knot.
In my view, it is a rather infeasible endeavour to be able to entice someone to deviate from an F8 for life critical applications, even if you provide the appropriate proof about the functionality of your proposed substitute knot.
For my part, however, i don't concur to that approach, but i fully understand the psychological part behind this "foolproof" of an F8.
By the way, nice demonstration of both tying methods.
Keep up the good work!We are very few (knot enthusiasts) in this world.😊
The F8 (that's Figure 8 for anyone reading this who doesn't understand knot shorthand) is an extremely strong, secure and dependable knot when someone needs a knot for life support applications. However, I agree with you that it certainly isn't the only option out there for life critical situations. Everything from an Alpine Butterfly to a Scott's Locked Bowline to the Double Dragon to the Poacher's termination knot are all perfectly acceptable knots that a climber can choose from and use for life support in a climbing system. I try not to limit myself to one knot and, instead, I select a suitable knot based on the situation and setting. Anyways, this is to say that I am in perfect agreement with you!
Thanks for saying that you enjoyed my demonstrations! Unlike many other knot channels that attempt to create quick, brief tying demos without much discussion so that their viewer retention numbers stay high, I have no problem taking as long as it takes to discuss every knot I cover and to take my time demo'ing the tying method. It hurts my stats, but I'm not here for UA-cam fame. I came here to educate!
I'll definitely be trying to keep up the good work! I have a lot on my plate lately and so I've only made one new video in the last month. Might take a break from YouTubing for a little bit, but I'll make an announcement on my channel if I go through with it. I'm burnt out after 2 years of content creation and generating nearly 400 videos.
It's good to see you in the comments section again! Feel free to hit me up via email if you ever want to talk knots. It has changed since you last emailed me and it's now knotorious.info@gmail.com. It's nice to talk with someone intelligent who clearly understands knots.
That shape of rope on the 2nd method is a munter. Cool knot!
Wow! You're almost certainly absolutely correct in this assertion! I should have known that! =-D
Is the double dragon loop one of your inventions?
No, the Double Dragon was created by someone else! I merely demonstrate both tying methods in this video and I may be the first ever to demonstrate how to use both methods to connect a piece of loose or fixed hardware (that exists in one video). I've never seen anyone use method #1 to show how to attach hardware!
Thanks
You're very welcome! Thanks for thanking me!
This is the same knot that you get when you tie the flying bowline:
ua-cam.com/users/shortsF1-qfSRe9-I
I can't open your link for some reason, but from what I can tell, the flying Bowline is basically a Single Dragon (if I were to give it a name). I has one wrap less than the Double Dragon. Keen observation on your part. I honestly was previously unaware of the flying Bowline.
To me there is an easier variation on your second method, instead of making a loop, folding it under, and passing the tail back through. What I do is make a bight, then pull another bight through the first. This has the benefit of being able to keep things pinched with the left hand and it helps keep the tail on the correct side of the loop.
It's hard for me to fully appreciate your variation without seeing it tied in front of me. Do you know of any videos online that demonstrate this tying method? I'd love to see it. I'm all for "easier" and have an unrelenting desire to learn and teach new tying methods. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I look forward, hopefully, to a link or two. I appreciate your insight. =-D
@Knot-orious I'm sorry, but I tried searching and can't find it anywhere. Of course, I realized after I typed the comment that my method doesn't give the ability to thread it through hardware.
I uploaded a short of how I tie it. I apologize for the shaky hands and bad video. I've never tied anything looking through a phone screen.
ua-cam.com/video/mxNQEPDJKPk/v-deo.htmlsi=qumt3KkKBs-y8pzw
You're good, homie. I've got really shaky hands and I get crap for it all the time in my comments section. I have a Vitamin B deficiency. That's what causes the shaking.
With that out of the way, wow, I'm impressed. I've NEVER seen that tying method before. Thank you for sharing this with me and for uploading a video to help me visualize this method. Also, you're wrong about hardware not being able to be installed using this method. You can install it both with a loose piece of hardware AND with hardware that is attached to a wall or tree or rock face.
Great! I'm definitely going to make a video about this technique! I'll give you credit for sharing it with me since I always like to give credit to my subscribers who help me create content. Thank you so much! Can you figure out how to install the hardware? If you can't, you'll see how in my video when I finally have time to make it. Very busy lately. But I'll find the time.
@@Knot-orious The only way I can think of for hardware is to pull the second bite all the way through, run the tail through the hardware, them put back within the first bite. Kind of combining my setup and your finish.
Excellent video. You compared it to the bowline, another video asserts the Angler's Knot is better than the Bowline. Is the rating based on application?
For anyone as impatient as I (I know), the second method begins at 9:12 mark. ua-cam.com/video/OJq-Q1PWZ6w/v-deo.html
@@joejoe-lb6bw The Anglers loop is, in my opinion and experience, inferior to the Double Dragon! Mostly because it was originally a fishing knot and designed to jam. This makes it much harder to untie, sometimes even becoming a knife knot, when heavily loaded. The double dragon is resistant to jamming. I forget what my parallel was to the bowline, but I can tell you without hesitation that the Double Dragon is more secure than the Bowline, even capable of life support applications without any additional finishes. Glad you liked the video! Let me know if you have anymore questions! If you enjoyed this video, I have almost 400 videos and Shorts on my channel! If you ever want to talk knots, hit me up at my email in my "about" section!
@@Knot-orious Thanks for taking the time to give such a complete answer. I'm new to knots, but as a home owner I found I have to gain some knowledge of this subject. My first and only real knot was the square knot. :)
@@joejoe-lb6bw You're very welcome. The square knot seems simple, but it can definitely be tied incorrectly! Keep up the learning and you'll be a knot Jedi like me in no time haha
I would not trust this loop knot without tying a 2 or 3 turn stopper knot to finish it of in a life critical situation. You can also make it a Triple Dragon for extra friction holding. I like to tie the Double Dragon loop the same way I tie the Perfection loop but instead of passing the end through the other loop I pass it behind and through the loop
I respect that. No harm in creating a safer knot. Thanks for commenting!