Video script, accompanying graphics, and the original ARVN Armored Cav TO&Es for download: www.battleorder.org/post/arvn_m113 Article on French Amphibious Cavalry in Vietnam: www.battleorder.org/post/fr-lvt All vehicle illustions courtesy of Tanks Encyclopedia: tanks-encyclopedia.com/ Lots of cool ARVN archival footage: www.youtube.com/@HinhAnhLichSu
This war is over. When a country can't account for half the money and equipment sent because of corruption, they do not have air support for its troops. Russia is using 6-7 times the amount of artillery. Ukraine is losing 7-8 men compared to Russia. It is a matter of how many men you want to bury.
I always liked how the Australians fitted some with the turrets from armored cars. As long as you remember the fact that your in a APC not a tank, it could be a good fire support platform. I think it could be said without exaggeration that the M113 is one of the greatest military vehicles to ever be created. And we could see them in service well past 2050 if not longer. As a 40k fan I'd love someone to sneak a M113 into the setting just for the laughs. It's almost believable.
I painted one of my 40k models to have the same name and callsign as my APC that was destroyed in Ukraine. Probably, maybe it's still alive though, I hope so.
Problem of M113 in the First Battle of Ap Bac 1963 is that the M113 lacked the MG mount shield shown in the video. So in the battle, the VC managed to kill most of the vehicle commanders who also worked as machine-gunners. Their losses stunned the infantry in the vehicles and reduced the unit cohesion. The Vietnamese complained about this issue before the battle but the US advisors headed by US General John Stillwell and his subordinate John Paul Vann ignored it. Their logic was that suppression fire was enough so the MG shield was not needed, but this is a jungle and not a desert, you cannot suppress enemy if you cannot see them. That detail helped to create the disaster... The experience from the defeat in First Battle of Ap Bac 1963 leaded to the victory in the Second Battle of Ap Bac in 1965. The later was an ARVN victory so the US media simply ignored it because it did not get well with their narratives which said that ARVN was just a bunch of losers.
My Grandpa Was a 6 year ARVN Veteran and yeah he say they are a bunch of Farmer conscripted for War, 1 even drop a Thompson and wipe his own squad in Camp, and they are armed with mostly Ww2 weapon cause M16 is Priority for Special troop, Ranger and US Soldier, they have discipline whatsoever usually 30% deserted or just surrender and run on First sight of Gun fire, he stay for 6 year and barely make it out alived, Ration? Forget about it, You Hunt your own fish and Steal fruit or left over American Ration, like the Russian Army, So claimed 4th ranked army is just a bunch of shit head, but the Ranger or Black Tiger may stand a Chance, in Urban combat Tank Crew usually lost Situationall awareness really fast and backup in to a house, all combat footage you See are good one, theyre not gonna Show the Running away part
the US actually told the ARVN off for fitting the first shields they came up with and said they should not be using them and to remove them, the ARVN ignored them and said they will protect their guys if they want to, strangely the US did not say the same thing to the Australian forces who came up with Okinawa Shields at first then trailed the M74C turret then later into the T50 turret which they used on the M113 right up until the intro of the AS4 variant in the early 2000's. i trained in the NZ M113 and we also used the T50 turret on ours. i am back driving after 20 years of being away from them.
The Australian forces used M-113's as armour when relieving the soldiers trapped at Long Tan. They faced rpg's and heavy machine guns but did not lose a single vehicle.
@@someaussieguy140 do you know if this was related to exposed gun position? Or was it a penetration of the hull? I know they suffered problems with early ARVN from commanders being knocked out.
@BeornTwit Not sure, but I imagine he was just exposed. All the images I've seen of Australian APCs around that time had either a completely exposed gun or just a shield over it. So if he was operating the weapon he'd have been at least somewhat exposed. The Army still uses similar gun shields on some APC variants to this day. They protect you pretty good, but I'd much rather roll into battle inside a proper turret.
I took a careful look at your articles about the organization and history of French units. My summary is there; another incredibly precise and accurate job. Battle Order, you excel both in video and in writing detailed articles. Keep it up and thank you for this extremely qualitative content. Greetings from France ! 🇫🇷🤝🇺🇸
The M48s would come just in timeto help out in the Easter Offensive in I Corps. One battalion was available in Quang Tri and a group of them smashed a column of PAVN T54s in what the advisor called some of the best tank gunnery he had ever seen.
@@meirintheguard Those were M41, not M48. The ARVN did lost many M48, most to infantry weapons and confusion during retreats, but their tank v tank gunnery was quite formidable.
If you want to talk about M113s used as tanks - in Viet Nam or otherwise - you need to cover the Australian FSV - Fire Support Vehicle and M113AS1 with a Saladin turret. And the M113AS1 MRV - the Medium Reconaissance Vehicle - an M113AS1 with the Scorpion light tank turret. Both of these were colloquially referred to as "Beasts" e.g. "...jump into the Beast and grab my binos..." Both of these vehicles had 76mm guns featuring HESH, Cannister and smoke as well as co-ax and flex .30 cal M1919 Brownings MGs. The FSV was introduced for use in Viet Nam before the Centurion tank was deployed. In the ealry stages of Australia's "big army" in Viet Name was initially felt that the country/"going" was not suitable for tanks, and the FSV was used to provide fire support to infantry. It was later found that tanks could indeed be used and had some advantages over the FSVs - obviously protection, but also in terms of going as they could knock down bigger trees which let them go some places the Beast could not and the Centurion was used to great effect even in close country (nothing like a cannister round or 3 to convernt close country to less close country). But that was not the end of the 76mm turrent M113AS1. Australian M113AS1s all have provision to carry additional belly armour on the belly of the front thrid or so of the vehicle. This is steel armour that IIRC goes back about to the secound road wheel and weighs either 650 or 750kg. I can't 100% recall the weight of an M113AS1 FSV/MRV but I think it probably exceeds 16tonnes especially with belluy armour fitted. I'm pretty sure in the 90s a M113AS1 LRV/APC had a bridge class 15. So I strongly suspect that aside from high levels of protection and the gun probably being medium instead of high velocity (although it did have an anti armour round) the M113AS1FSV was very close to being a tank by the European standard quoted. After Viet Name the FSV was used in the Royal Australian Armoured Corp Medium Reconnaissance Regiments. The FSV was later upgraded/replaced by the M113AS1 MRV an M113AS1 with a Scorpion light tank turret - this also had a passive II night sight for the gun. The troop organisation of an Medium Reconaissance regiment's Sabre Troop n was 2 M113AS1 LRVs (M113s with a Cadilac Gage T50 turrent with an .50 M2HB and an M1919 .30 bronwing), 2 Beasts and an M113AS1 APC with an Assault section. The M113AS1 APC was exactly the same as the M113AS1 LRV, except that in the early days it had twin .30s instead of the .30/.50 combination, sometimes had a different radio fit and it carried an Assault Section. The Assault Section was comprised 9 Assault Troopers - RAAC troopers who were trained to operate in a dismounted role, organised similarly to an Aussie infantry section of the time, but some what more generoiusly equipped - e.g. 1 Charlie Guts-ache per section, mine detector, chainsaw etc (i.e. more assaukt pioneer equipment than RaINF grunt sections) and sometimes an additional machine gun or auto rifle. Most Aussie grunts did not have vehicles - the fact that the Assaukt troopers had their own M113AS1 allowed them to have "nice things" that most grunt sections could not. Assault troopers manned dismounted OPs, cleared defiles, undertook dismounted close reconaissance, some assault pioneer tasks and were generally very handy. The Medium reconaissance regiment undertook medium reconaissacne essentially the battle space between in front of the infantry battallions' recon patrols up to behind the SAS - something like 5-80KM in front of the forward edge of battle as it was known back in the day, as well as covering force, screening, route recon, reserve demolitons and all the other usual armoured recon tasks.
Thats correct. I was an assault trooper with the 2/14th QMI L/H in the 80s. We had the M113a1 with 50./30. Combo turret and 4 beasts with the scorpion turrets.
Gotta say I love the fact you've uploaded more ARVN related stuff lately. They're an interesting force which unfortunately gets overlooked a lot in favor of the US forces in Vietnam.
Could we say that since the ARVN adoption of this vehicle to that role spawned in many modifications of different turrets ranging from .50 cal to 90mm to be mounted on the M113. Like other commenters pointed out evolving into a Fire Support Vehicle, might have been a influence to the Bradley?
Our Philippine army still using M113, and they upgraded it and put a cannon at the top of the vehicle. To combat treath against terrorist group and militant group like abu sayaf and cpp-npa.
Us brits did a similar thing in the Falklands, we used CVRTs as “light tanks” because we couldn’t bring chieftains over, plus there was little use for an MBT in the falklands. Also because the CVRT has so little ground pressure, it was fairly common for a crew to dismount and to subsequently sink knee deep or more into the ground while the CVRT barely left a dent in the ground.
Here is a more open definition of awhat is tank from a french general "Bring the fire under cover" and it fits perfectly to what tanks were made for in the first place during WW1
We called them ACAV'S Armored Cavalry Assault Vehicle, I rode one with the 11TH ACR The Black Horse, later served with them in Germany in the mid 70's.
M113s will never die. Current armies that still utilize these vehicles have mostly been upgraded to meet modern standards or have completely changed their roles.
I don't know how to explain this, but the M113 is one of my favorite vehicles of all time. I never had to trust my life to one so it's an academic opinion, but there's just something about it's boxy utility, endless variations, and economy that makes me experience emotion.
They still haven't found a proper replacement for it to this day... It is still the primary tracked APC for most of the Western world and most of their friends/allies... It is infinitely upgradable and easy to maintain in the field. An aluminum box with tracks that floats... You pick the engine type, you pick the weapons, you pick the amount of protection and you pick the actual purpose. From standard APC to fairly well armed and armored IFV to armored tracked mortar carrier or armored ambulance and even ATGM equipped tank destroyer, command vehicle, artillery spotter, logistical vehicle, armored recovery vehicle, mine clearing/engineering vehicle, etc...😂 It's hard to get rid of such a utilitarian, modular and useful piece of equipment when comparable replacements cost 3-4 times more and offer only a slight improvement in combat capabilities over them...
As someone who has never been in the military.....there is just something about the M113....so charming...so grateful....so boxy....truly a thing of beauty.
Even as it is now outdated and no longer in service with most western militaries, the m113 lives on as the inspiration for the Rhino in the WH40K universe. Here it has become a platform for a great many battlefield roles beyond carrying troops to and from the frontlines, spawning a ton of variants all derived from this legendary chassis.
Meanwhile in the Philippines: Some M113s are fitted with Scorpion 76 turrets. Realistically speaking, these things are our unofficial "light tanks", til we started getting actual Sabrah light tanks from Elbit
Best thing they ever did was to lose, seriously now...why the fuck would you treat former South Vietnam army as heroes especially after how they treated their own people. This has the same sick vibes like people who worship US civil war confederation or apartheid Rhodesia.
Рік тому+4
Interesting Video. That the Vietnamese fought mounted remindes me of the shift of german "Panzergrenadiers" towards mounted combat during WW2.
@@ribos2762 HO CHI MINH IS A CHINESE SPY. HIS REAL NAME IS HỒ QUANG - HỒ TẬP CHƯƠNG. COMMUNISTS GROUP ( MORE THAN 10 COUNTRIES ) VS. THE REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM AFTER THE PARIS AGREEMENT IN 1973 -> WAS THE VN WAR FAIR?🤔
During Vietnam war, the ARVN soldiers fitted 105mm recoiled cannon on the side to provide more fire power but I do not know whether this gun can destroy the tank like PT-76 or T-54 MBT
The M113 cops alot of unfair hate. Yes they're ugly, old, and uncomfortable. However they're also very reliable, if you look after them properly. They're easy to maintain, you dont nessecarily need specialist workshop callsigns for everything like more advanced modern vehicles. If you have an experienced driver who knows what they're doing, they'll be able to get through just about anything you need them to. For their intended role as APCs they're excellent and more than capable in a modern battlespace, dare I say they're the best APC ever designed. They've also been asked to be alot more than APCs, roles which they've perfromed well in all things considered.
I was sent to M113 drivers school in 1967 but when I went over the Army never called on my skills in that capacity. I fought around them on a few occasions in the mountainous Central Highlands and we would sit on top of them rather than inside. Their armor is only good for stopping small arms but that was better than nothing sometimes.
Armor can honestly be anything that is protected enough to resist the primary small arms (including pack artillery and heavy platoon weapons) of whoever you are fighting. If we ever go to war with some lost Amazonian tribe armed with nothing but bows and arrows you could use a Ford Utility in the armor role and it would work just as well.
The Philippine army attached some of their retired Scorpion Light Tank turrets on some of their M113's, basically turning it into a crude light tank or infantry fighting vehicle
@@RyuzoSan19 Australia is literally weaker than Canada militarily and usually provides a token force in NATO operations... They eat food provided by the US fire ammunition provided by the US and consume fuel provided by the US... Emergency medical, transportation, logistical and air support.. Australia In battle is a literal welfare state at war so...
The Phillipines military can barely keep its own "territory" under control vs the Islamic fundamentalists factions within the Philippines... Honestly they have barely enough "armored" vehicles to provide basic security to outlying islands... I've watched many videos of their forces being pinned down and decimated by the lightest of rebel forces because they had no armored vehicles and no close air support...
@@kskeel1124 terrorism has fallen by about 20 percent, since Isis' failure in marawi it showed that despite the Philippines armed forces being militarily weaker compared to Indonesia amd Malaysia they can still put up a fight and the government is slowly converting former terrorists into normal civilians by simply giving poor communities essential items and infastructure like schools.
@@kskeel1124 Calm down dude, I was just making an example of a similar vehicle found in both militaries, the Australian M113 FSV is literally retired so no need to get mad lol
Aussies in the 1960s fitted Brit two man Saladan turrets to their M113s and classed them as a an FSV- Fire Support Vehicle with its 76mm main gun. Later these M113s were refitted with Brit 75mm Scorpion turrets and called em Medium Recon Vehicle. I was an Scorpion gunner on the M113.
These were indeed effective systems. Just because they wont take a hit like a MBT, they could be very useful. That being said, I knew a couple of Vietnam vets who had lost a leg in one. Can’t recall if it was mines or rpg but one of the two.
In Ukraine they are using the M113 in a frontline role again, I believe, due to the lack of enough proper IFVs. I believe all things considered the Ukrainians are happy with them, though that might also be because it's the only vehicle available in large enough quantities to be readily given to Ukraine. There also the case of the much uparmored, upengined, and upgunned Dutch M113s (The YPR or AIFV) of which Ukraine received 200. Which are certainly a much better alternative to the 'regular' M113 (for this role).
It is pretty difficult to up-armour an APC enough to make a difference against infantry AT weapons, but given the Soviet legacy IFV:s that Ukraine has traditionally used are not exactly indestructable against said threats either this may not make a huge difference even if the Ukraineans get creative in the use of western tracked APC:s for lack of alternatives.
My country of Singapore 🇸🇬 have used the M113 since the 1970s. The Army replaced it with the locally made Hunter AIFV which is similiar to the US M2 Bradley. Now the M113 is use by the Singapore Air Force equiped with short range infrared surface to air missile for air defence operations.
PAVN actually have PT-76 on the battlefield as early as 1968 during the battle of Lang Vei T-54 first appear on the battlefied during action in 25/2/1971 during the attack on ARVN 3rd brigade HQ with 10 T-54 from 9th tank company, 198th tank battalion, 203rd regiment pressent during the attack The battle was part of PAVN counter-attack phase of operation Lam Son 719 It was the direct reason why ARVN brigades was reinforce with a squadron of M-48 as it was founnd during the counterattack and failed defence of the recaptured HQ that the M-41 and M113 from the 18th armoured squadron was hopelessly outmatched by the T-54 of the 9th company also while M24 was withdrawn from the frontline, it still active with unit defending Saigon with many saw battle in the last day of the RVN the M113 nowaday is used within armoured infantry battalion (mechanized infantry with APC supported by a company of PT-76 and other support element) attatched to tank and armour brigade it would be nice if you revisit Vietnamese unit, as your last video about PAVN squad structure have quite alot of error
@@rich453 M72 wasnt that effective during that battle There were 16 PT-76 total of the 198th tank battalion, 203rd regiment participate in the battle 1 was destroyed by the 2 106mm recoiless gun present at the base and 6 other damaged with 1 unrecoverable of which only one was by the M72 and there 75 M72 present at the base before the attack The M72 fuze was terribly unrelible again angled surface most M72 fired just harmlessly bounce off tank surface
@@Aes880 m72 có tác dụng,nhưng 3 que xài ngu nên bắn chả có gì,nhìn vào sino-vietnamese war là hiểu, quân ta 1 shot trên bề mặt type 59 nó giết sạch gần 8-10 người của xe
Funny….I’m currently in Hue, Vietnam and I’m also a retired Marine….seeing that most of the areas around here is NOT jungle….it’s more like Florida weather and like the panhandle. More like when I was stationed in Lejeune eons ago. These tanks left behind had like a box and a half of willie P thrown in them….you crawl to the top and look into it, you see right through it and see the ground.
They did the same thing in Iraq. I seen tankers rolling in Abrams, 113s, and Humvees. They really brought us back to our dragoon roots during that war.
I was in a m113 mortar track from Kuwait to Baghdad in 2003, it was newly refurbished when we left, it was fucked by the time we got to Baghdad... No coupala for me, I ended up taking off my plates so I could drop down the 50 cal turret hole faster...
No mention of it, but I wonder if the Royal Australian Armoured Corps RAAC organisation had any influence with Australian Cavalry operating in Vung Tau Province out of Nui Dat with M113....? Serving with 2nd Cavalry and 4/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse in the 1975-1986 period (both units did serve in Vietnam during the 1960's) our Troop organisation included an Assault Section on Infantry and 75 mm guns in Fire Support Vehicles (M113 FSV) ... Interesting subject nonetheless, covered well by you!
Interesting video. Am I right in thinking the Bradley also killed more enemy armoured fighting vehicles than any other in Gulf War I? I think I read that somewhere?
Due to the peculiar selection of music in the background of his videos, I have a feeling that Battle Order is a fan of Eugen System's game called Warno.
It was really interesting, I love this type of content, also, if I understanded correctly the M113 used as a tank means they don't have cannons, they still have just machineguns, but noone dismounted from it, they fought from the vehicle, using it as a fortress or a tracked "gunship"?
Incredible History Beautiful Holy Box Amazing what The Real Mil get’s upto when the Doctrine Designers don’t Try Great Work Good Presentation and Nice Oration Thanks Lovely Box
Actually a more serious problem of the m113 is the armor, its armor is really not thick,and it hasn't sloped armor. The M113 armor is too easy to penetrate with anti-tank guns. And with the addition of the MG shield, machine gunners are still at high risk of death by snipers
They’re working in Ukraine. I know what you mean but in many areas of the world and with the right air cover they are viable strats for a shock attack to break up and absorb set ambushes to allow infantry units to move and air assets to identify and strike hidden hostiles
@@jango9534 well, Ukraine isn't using them on the front lines, they do free up back line equipment, for example the thunder run of Kharkiv was done mainly with Technicals and Humvees PS: Ukraine doesn't have the air force to take air superiority, but what they have been able to achieve, with what they have is beyond amazing, they will not have air cover.
Thats why alot of troops in Vietnam chose to ride ontop of the vehicle instead of inside it. They figured they had a better chance of getting out that way.
Id reskin these with the new foamed steel armor in development. Mount a nest of switch blade drones on top and use the space for the drone control systems. The lesson learned from the Russo/ Ukraine conflict is that you never know when you'll have to dust off the old gear and get it ready for war. China is big ya dig.
4:35 so does the rifle squad literally just 1 m113 with infantry and the support squad is just the recoiless rifles and mortars? Or is it 3 m114 and the recoilless rifles and mortars?
Vietnam proved how flawed the APC concept of the era was. To have a tracked vehicle only armored against small arms and equipped with only a single machinegun, meant it provided no additional tactical value over a truck, but cost far more and drew more enemy fire. Hence why after Vietnam, the M113 would forever be marked for rear line service and support roles. Only serving as logistics and support roles like radio and comms vehicles and ambulances. The M113 is very good for what it is, but as a combat vehicle, its a waste
@Rich they were also better armed and armored. Using dual and even occasionally quad m2 brownings, vs the single browning on an M113. Plus the gun trucks used thicker steel armor than the m113. Better protection against fragmentation and larger 14.5 ammo. but still lacking against RPGs
Video script, accompanying graphics, and the original ARVN Armored Cav TO&Es for download: www.battleorder.org/post/arvn_m113
Article on French Amphibious Cavalry in Vietnam: www.battleorder.org/post/fr-lvt
All vehicle illustions courtesy of Tanks Encyclopedia: tanks-encyclopedia.com/
Lots of cool ARVN archival footage: www.youtube.com/@HinhAnhLichSu
Nice 🙂
Thanks you for Making a Vietnamese video on Vietnamese Reunification Day.
This war is over. When a country can't account for half the money and equipment sent because of corruption, they do not have air support for its troops. Russia is using 6-7 times the amount of artillery. Ukraine is losing 7-8 men compared to Russia. It is a matter of how many men you want to bury.
id like to see vids about Estonian defence forces units organization and their equipment and etc
I always liked how the Australians fitted some with the turrets from armored cars. As long as you remember the fact that your in a APC not a tank, it could be a good fire support platform.
I think it could be said without exaggeration that the M113 is one of the greatest military vehicles to ever be created. And we could see them in service well past 2050 if not longer.
As a 40k fan I'd love someone to sneak a M113 into the setting just for the laughs. It's almost believable.
Einstein thought World War IV would be fought with rocks and sticks ; he was wrong.
It will obviously be fought with M113s !
Also, take a look at the 120mm self-propelled mortars (SPMs) South Korea is starting to acquire en masse ; I'll let you guess what's its lineage.
So great it could be an attack aircraft
I painted one of my 40k models to have the same name and callsign as my APC that was destroyed in Ukraine. Probably, maybe it's still alive though, I hope so.
Those were off the Saladin. Also, we used them basically as tanks at the Battle of Long Tan
I just love how the M113 looks so boxy
The most box ever to box
It's a B.O.X within a B.O.X
It's the never-ending B.O.X
Armored lunchbox
@@leoffemiruen2028 so your food doesn't get blown up while being delivered to you, it's very good during school because if it.
@@BattleOrder the most box ever to box... Apart from the even boxier m59
Problem of M113 in the First Battle of Ap Bac 1963 is that the M113 lacked the MG mount shield shown in the video. So in the battle, the VC managed to kill most of the vehicle commanders who also worked as machine-gunners. Their losses stunned the infantry in the vehicles and reduced the unit cohesion. The Vietnamese complained about this issue before the battle but the US advisors headed by US General John Stillwell and his subordinate John Paul Vann ignored it. Their logic was that suppression fire was enough so the MG shield was not needed, but this is a jungle and not a desert, you cannot suppress enemy if you cannot see them. That detail helped to create the disaster... The experience from the defeat in First Battle of Ap Bac 1963 leaded to the victory in the Second Battle of Ap Bac in 1965. The later was an ARVN victory so the US media simply ignored it because it did not get well with their narratives which said that ARVN was just a bunch of losers.
No you’re supposed to ignore the media narrative and the communists are the good guys >:(
@@ribos2762 One single of their soldiers would kick your ass 20 times over, but sure
My Grandpa Was a 6 year ARVN Veteran and yeah he say they are a bunch of Farmer conscripted for War, 1 even drop a Thompson and wipe his own squad in Camp, and they are armed with mostly Ww2 weapon cause M16 is Priority for Special troop, Ranger and US Soldier, they have discipline whatsoever usually 30% deserted or just surrender and run on First sight of Gun fire, he stay for 6 year and barely make it out alived, Ration? Forget about it, You Hunt your own fish and Steal fruit or left over American Ration, like the Russian Army, So claimed 4th ranked army is just a bunch of shit head, but the Ranger or Black Tiger may stand a Chance, in Urban combat Tank Crew usually lost Situationall awareness really fast and backup in to a house, all combat footage you See are good one, theyre not gonna Show the Running away part
@@ballbender9thousand944 that's what you get when all generals in the army all fighting for political powers instead of actually improve the army
the US actually told the ARVN off for fitting the first shields they came up with and said they should not be using them and to remove them, the ARVN ignored them and said they will protect their guys if they want to, strangely the US did not say the same thing to the Australian forces who came up with Okinawa Shields at first then trailed the M74C turret then later into the T50 turret which they used on the M113 right up until the intro of the AS4 variant in the early 2000's. i trained in the NZ M113 and we also used the T50 turret on ours. i am back driving after 20 years of being away from them.
The Australian forces used M-113's as armour when relieving the soldiers trapped at Long Tan. They faced rpg's and heavy machine guns but did not lose a single vehicle.
Unfortunately one of the crew commanders was hit though. Corporal Peter Clements, he died in hospital a few days after Long Tan.
it is quite interesting how reality is often stranger than fiction
@@someaussieguy140 do you know if this was related to exposed gun position? Or was it a penetration of the hull?
I know they suffered problems with early ARVN from commanders being knocked out.
@BeornTwit Not sure, but I imagine he was just exposed. All the images I've seen of Australian APCs around that time had either a completely exposed gun or just a shield over it. So if he was operating the weapon he'd have been at least somewhat exposed.
The Army still uses similar gun shields on some APC variants to this day. They protect you pretty good, but I'd much rather roll into battle inside a proper turret.
That was very lucky for them
12.7 mm bullets can damage those vehicles greatly
I took a careful look at your articles about the organization and history of French units. My summary is there; another incredibly precise and accurate job. Battle Order, you excel both in video and in writing detailed articles. Keep it up and thank you for this extremely qualitative content. Greetings from France ! 🇫🇷🤝🇺🇸
The M48s would come just in timeto help out in the Easter Offensive in I Corps. One battalion was available in Quang Tri and a group of them smashed a column of PAVN T54s in what the advisor called some of the best tank gunnery he had ever seen.
wow but that type 59 shot down 7 m48s before got shot by 3 m48s remain
@@meirintheguard Those were M41, not M48.
The ARVN did lost many M48, most to infantry weapons and confusion during retreats, but their tank v tank gunnery was quite formidable.
@@mr.monhon5179 quên
If you want to talk about M113s used as tanks - in Viet Nam or otherwise - you need to cover the Australian FSV - Fire Support Vehicle and M113AS1 with a Saladin turret. And the M113AS1 MRV - the Medium Reconaissance Vehicle - an M113AS1 with the Scorpion light tank turret.
Both of these were colloquially referred to as "Beasts" e.g. "...jump into the Beast and grab my binos..."
Both of these vehicles had 76mm guns featuring HESH, Cannister and smoke as well as co-ax and flex .30 cal M1919 Brownings MGs.
The FSV was introduced for use in Viet Nam before the Centurion tank was deployed.
In the ealry stages of Australia's "big army" in Viet Name was initially felt that the country/"going" was not suitable for tanks, and the FSV was used to provide fire support to infantry.
It was later found that tanks could indeed be used and had some advantages over the FSVs - obviously protection, but also in terms of going as they could knock down bigger trees which let them go some places the Beast could not and the Centurion was used to great effect even in close country (nothing like a cannister round or 3 to convernt close country to less close country).
But that was not the end of the 76mm turrent M113AS1.
Australian M113AS1s all have provision to carry additional belly armour on the belly of the front thrid or so of the vehicle. This is steel armour that IIRC goes back about to the secound road wheel and weighs either 650 or 750kg.
I can't 100% recall the weight of an M113AS1 FSV/MRV but I think it probably exceeds 16tonnes especially with belluy armour fitted. I'm pretty sure in the 90s a M113AS1 LRV/APC had a bridge class 15.
So I strongly suspect that aside from high levels of protection and the gun probably being medium instead of high velocity (although it did have an anti armour round) the M113AS1FSV was very close to being a tank by the European standard quoted.
After Viet Name the FSV was used in the Royal Australian Armoured Corp Medium Reconnaissance Regiments.
The FSV was later upgraded/replaced by the M113AS1 MRV an M113AS1 with a Scorpion light tank turret - this also had a passive II night sight for the gun.
The troop organisation of an Medium Reconaissance regiment's Sabre Troop n was 2 M113AS1 LRVs (M113s with a Cadilac Gage T50 turrent with an .50 M2HB and an M1919 .30 bronwing), 2 Beasts and an M113AS1 APC with an Assault section. The M113AS1 APC was exactly the same as the M113AS1 LRV, except that in the early days it had twin .30s instead of the .30/.50 combination, sometimes had a different radio fit and it carried an Assault Section.
The Assault Section was comprised 9 Assault Troopers - RAAC troopers who were trained to operate in a dismounted role, organised similarly to an Aussie infantry section of the time, but some what more generoiusly equipped - e.g. 1 Charlie Guts-ache per section, mine detector, chainsaw etc (i.e. more assaukt pioneer equipment than RaINF grunt sections) and sometimes an additional machine gun or auto rifle. Most Aussie grunts did not have vehicles - the fact that the Assaukt troopers had their own M113AS1 allowed them to have "nice things" that most grunt sections could not.
Assault troopers manned dismounted OPs, cleared defiles, undertook dismounted close reconaissance, some assault pioneer tasks and were generally very handy.
The Medium reconaissance regiment undertook medium reconaissacne essentially the battle space between in front of the infantry battallions' recon patrols up to behind the SAS - something like 5-80KM in front of the forward edge of battle as it was known back in the day, as well as covering force, screening, route recon, reserve demolitons and all the other usual armoured recon tasks.
Thats correct. I was an assault trooper with the 2/14th QMI L/H in the 80s. We had the M113a1 with 50./30. Combo turret and 4 beasts with the scorpion turrets.
Even the Fil.s done that too! (Scorpion 76mm) as FSV!
Gotta say I love the fact you've uploaded more ARVN related stuff lately. They're an interesting force which unfortunately gets overlooked a lot in favor of the US forces in Vietnam.
yeah it was really interesting how they got destroyed. long live the invincible people's war
Could we say that since the ARVN adoption of this vehicle to that role spawned in many modifications of different turrets ranging from .50 cal to 90mm to be mounted on the M113. Like other commenters pointed out evolving into a Fire Support Vehicle, might have been a influence to the Bradley?
the Philippine Army use M113 as ad-hoc tanks in Mindanao and during the Marawi Siege
yes, yes we could
@@aker1993 True... the 76mm Scorpion Turret slapped on the m113 feels so good
Our Philippine army still using M113, and they upgraded it and put a cannon at the top of the vehicle. To combat treath against terrorist group and militant group like abu sayaf and cpp-npa.
Us brits did a similar thing in the Falklands, we used CVRTs as “light tanks” because we couldn’t bring chieftains over, plus there was little use for an MBT in the falklands.
Also because the CVRT has so little ground pressure, it was fairly common for a crew to dismount and to subsequently sink knee deep or more into the ground while the CVRT barely left a dent in the ground.
Yes but the Scorpion and Scimitar actually are light tanks, not converted APC’s
Here is a more open definition of awhat is tank from a french general
"Bring the fire under cover" and it fits perfectly to what tanks were made for in the first place during WW1
We called them ACAV'S Armored Cavalry Assault Vehicle, I rode one with the 11TH ACR The Black Horse, later served with them in Germany in the mid 70's.
Allons!
M113s will never die. Current armies that still utilize these vehicles have mostly been upgraded to meet modern standards or have completely changed their roles.
0:30 pov: the Bradley smells your fear
I don't know how to explain this, but the M113 is one of my favorite vehicles of all time. I never had to trust my life to one so it's an academic opinion, but there's just something about it's boxy utility, endless variations, and economy that makes me experience emotion.
They still haven't found a proper replacement for it to this day... It is still the primary tracked APC for most of the Western world and most of their friends/allies... It is infinitely upgradable and easy to maintain in the field. An aluminum box with tracks that floats... You pick the engine type, you pick the weapons, you pick the amount of protection and you pick the actual purpose. From standard APC to fairly well armed and armored IFV to armored tracked mortar carrier or armored ambulance and even ATGM equipped tank destroyer, command vehicle, artillery spotter, logistical vehicle, armored recovery vehicle, mine clearing/engineering vehicle, etc...😂 It's hard to get rid of such a utilitarian, modular and useful piece of equipment when comparable replacements cost 3-4 times more and offer only a slight improvement in combat capabilities over them...
@@kskeel1124 The Army has though, look at the AMPV that just entered service in March
@@demanischaffer some nations like the Philippines still use M113 in a FSV, APC and IFV roles simply because the US donated a lot
As someone who has never been in the military.....there is just something about the M113....so charming...so grateful....so boxy....truly a thing of beauty.
Even as it is now outdated and no longer in service with most western militaries, the m113 lives on as the inspiration for the Rhino in the WH40K universe. Here it has become a platform for a great many battlefield roles beyond carrying troops to and from the frontlines, spawning a ton of variants all derived from this legendary chassis.
I painted one of my 40k models with the name and callsign of my APC that was destroyed in Ukraine. Maybe, it might still be alive, I hope it is.
No
@@thewaroffrench YES
also METAL BAWXES !!!!!
The U.S. army still uses this a lot my company right now has 2 plts using this and very first sergeant TCs one
Yeah but 40k is extreme cringe
Meanwhile in the Philippines:
Some M113s are fitted with Scorpion 76 turrets. Realistically speaking, these things are our unofficial "light tanks", til we started getting actual Sabrah light tanks from Elbit
For those who don't know, Battle Order posted this video on the anniversary of the Fall of Saigon. Thank you for recognizing ARVN soldiers.
Agreed!
30/4 nên được dịp sống dậy hả con?
Người ta trình bày về cái structure của các đơn vị M113, mà con vào nhận vơ tội nghiệp quá 😊
so sad,hope your south vietnam got indepence in cali and have more water to use
rest in piss, you won't be missed! Hope you aren't that thirsty anymore!
Best thing they ever did was to lose, seriously now...why the fuck would you treat former South Vietnam army as heroes especially after how they treated their own people. This has the same sick vibes like people who worship US civil war confederation or apartheid Rhodesia.
Interesting Video. That the Vietnamese fought mounted remindes me of the shift of german "Panzergrenadiers" towards mounted combat during WW2.
THANK YOUR CHANNEL FOR REMEMBERING AND TELLING THE TRUE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM ARMY👏👏👏
@@ribos2762 HO CHI MINH IS A CHINESE SPY. HIS REAL NAME IS HỒ QUANG - HỒ TẬP CHƯƠNG. COMMUNISTS GROUP ( MORE THAN 10 COUNTRIES ) VS. THE REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM AFTER THE PARIS AGREEMENT IN 1973 -> WAS THE VN WAR FAIR?🤔
Also Known As The Khmer Krom Separatist Movement.
During Vietnam war, the ARVN soldiers fitted 105mm recoiled cannon on the side to provide more fire power but I do not know whether this gun can destroy the tank like PT-76 or T-54 MBT
They can cause our t54 didn't have era back then , if they did come with era those Recoiless gun are useless tho
You can shoot to track to stop it moving and then…
The M113 cops alot of unfair hate. Yes they're ugly, old, and uncomfortable.
However they're also very reliable, if you look after them properly. They're easy to maintain, you dont nessecarily need specialist workshop callsigns for everything like more advanced modern vehicles.
If you have an experienced driver who knows what they're doing, they'll be able to get through just about anything you need them to.
For their intended role as APCs they're excellent and more than capable in a modern battlespace, dare I say they're the best APC ever designed. They've also been asked to be alot more than APCs, roles which they've perfromed well in all things considered.
Interesting video of a M113 casevac in Ukraine.
ua-cam.com/video/vqRrPdY_4sQ/v-deo.html
I was sent to M113 drivers school in 1967 but when I went over the Army never called on my skills in that capacity. I fought around them on a few occasions in the mountainous Central Highlands and we would sit on top of them rather than inside. Their armor is only good for stopping small arms but that was better than nothing sometimes.
Armor can honestly be anything that is protected enough to resist the primary small arms (including pack artillery and heavy platoon weapons) of whoever you are fighting. If we ever go to war with some lost Amazonian tribe armed with nothing but bows and arrows you could use a Ford Utility in the armor role and it would work just as well.
Fun fact in the Philippines a few M1113,s were modified to carry a 76 mm gun on a 360 degree turret
More contents about ARVN army please !!! Thank you and appreciate your work !!!
I love the way you've put citation in your videos.
The Philippine army attached some of their retired Scorpion Light Tank turrets on some of their M113's, basically turning it into a crude light tank or infantry fighting vehicle
We call them "M113 FSV", and Australia actually has some too with Saladin Turrets instead!
@@RyuzoSan19 Australia is literally weaker than Canada militarily and usually provides a token force in NATO operations... They eat food provided by the US fire ammunition provided by the US and consume fuel provided by the US... Emergency medical, transportation, logistical and air support.. Australia In battle is a literal welfare state at war so...
The Phillipines military can barely keep its own "territory" under control vs the Islamic fundamentalists factions within the Philippines... Honestly they have barely enough "armored" vehicles to provide basic security to outlying islands... I've watched many videos of their forces being pinned down and decimated by the lightest of rebel forces because they had no armored vehicles and no close air support...
@@kskeel1124 terrorism has fallen by about 20 percent, since Isis' failure in marawi it showed that despite the Philippines armed forces being militarily weaker compared to Indonesia amd Malaysia they can still put up a fight and the government is slowly converting former terrorists into normal civilians by simply giving poor communities essential items and infastructure like schools.
@@kskeel1124 Calm down dude, I was just making an example of a similar vehicle found in both militaries, the Australian M113 FSV is literally retired so no need to get mad lol
Reminds me of the Philippine Army and how they're still relying on these metal boxes.
Hi from New Zealand. Your work is very impressive... interesting topics that no else thinks to cover in a sharp format. Thanks very much.
Aussies in the 1960s fitted Brit two man Saladan turrets to their M113s and classed them as a an FSV- Fire Support Vehicle with its 76mm main gun. Later these M113s were refitted with Brit 75mm Scorpion turrets and called em Medium Recon Vehicle. I was an Scorpion gunner on the M113.
These were indeed effective systems. Just because they wont take a hit like a MBT, they could be very useful. That being said, I knew a couple of Vietnam vets who had lost a leg in one. Can’t recall if it was mines or rpg but one of the two.
In Ukraine they are using the M113 in a frontline role again, I believe, due to the lack of enough proper IFVs. I believe all things considered the Ukrainians are happy with them, though that might also be because it's the only vehicle available in large enough quantities to be readily given to Ukraine.
There also the case of the much uparmored, upengined, and upgunned Dutch M113s (The YPR or AIFV) of which Ukraine received 200. Which are certainly a much better alternative to the 'regular' M113 (for this role).
It is pretty difficult to up-armour an APC enough to make a difference against infantry AT weapons, but given the Soviet legacy IFV:s that Ukraine has traditionally used are not exactly indestructable against said threats either this may not make a huge difference even if the Ukraineans get creative in the use of western tracked APC:s for lack of alternatives.
3rd Assault Brigade...
Don't they just use it to carry soldiers near the front and the back away?
A very cool modification has been done to the M113 in the opening 2 clips
Around the 3:30-4:00 mark you can hear "Come Get Some" from the RS2-Vietnam soundtrack
I love this: It's all relative! The "Bear of Guningtou" which annihilated waves of communist soldiers... was actually an M5 light tank.
What? You are telling me the defenition of tank is primarily based in utility?
Wild. I wonder what else this applys to. 🦈
I appreciate all of your videos, but this one was especially interesting and informative.
I miss my M113. One of the greatest vehicles of all time and it soldiers on. Great video
My country of Singapore 🇸🇬 have used the M113 since the 1970s. The Army replaced it with the locally made Hunter AIFV which is similiar to the US M2 Bradley. Now the M113 is use by the Singapore Air Force equiped with short range infrared surface to air missile for air defence operations.
PAVN actually have PT-76 on the battlefield as early as 1968 during the battle of Lang Vei
T-54 first appear on the battlefied during action in 25/2/1971 during the attack on ARVN 3rd brigade HQ with 10 T-54 from 9th tank company, 198th tank battalion, 203rd regiment pressent during the attack
The battle was part of PAVN counter-attack phase of operation Lam Son 719
It was the direct reason why ARVN brigades was reinforce with a squadron of M-48 as it was founnd during the counterattack and failed defence of the recaptured HQ that the M-41 and M113 from the 18th armoured squadron was hopelessly outmatched by the T-54 of the 9th company
also while M24 was withdrawn from the frontline, it still active with unit defending Saigon with many saw battle in the last day of the RVN
the M113 nowaday is used within armoured infantry battalion (mechanized infantry with APC supported by a company of PT-76 and other support element) attatched to tank and armour brigade
it would be nice if you revisit Vietnamese unit, as your last video about PAVN squad structure have quite alot of error
What errors? Information is hard to find
@@rich453 M72 wasnt that effective during that battle
There were 16 PT-76 total of the 198th tank battalion, 203rd regiment participate in the battle
1 was destroyed by the 2 106mm recoiless gun present at the base and 6 other damaged with 1 unrecoverable of which only one was by the M72 and there 75 M72 present at the base before the attack
The M72 fuze was terribly unrelible again angled surface most M72 fired just harmlessly bounce off tank surface
@@Aes880 m72 có tác dụng,nhưng 3 que xài ngu nên bắn chả có gì,nhìn vào sino-vietnamese war là hiểu, quân ta 1 shot trên bề mặt type 59 nó giết sạch gần 8-10 người của xe
You are the PAVN armorer dude right? I remember seeing you on Forgotten Weapons video about the K-50M.
Anyway, great insights you have there.
@@mr.monhon5179 err no im no amourer
All of a sudden, the Bradley starts to make perfect sense
A great video again like how you showed Australian soldiers at the start given it was just ANZAC day on the 25th
USA : M113 using as tank
Space marines : it's free real estate
Literally!! 😂
I like how battle Order included the soundtrack from rising storm 2 into the background music
Fact that this channel has the same music as Warno game does gives me chills for some reason
My grandfather was an arvn armor officer, his command m113 would have a recoilless rifle along with a 50 cal as armaments
love your music choices
Battle Order: "Using M113s as tanks?"
Philippine Army: We're continuing the tradition.
You never cease to amaze me
Funny….I’m currently in Hue, Vietnam and I’m also a retired Marine….seeing that most of the areas around here is NOT jungle….it’s more like Florida weather and like the panhandle. More like when I was stationed in Lejeune eons ago.
These tanks left behind had like a box and a half of willie P thrown in them….you crawl to the top and look into it, you see right through it and see the ground.
LOVED our Battle Taxie! Especially the heater! Kirchgoins WEST GERMANY!
love me some of that Rising Storm 2 ost playing in the background
They did the same thing in Iraq. I seen tankers rolling in Abrams, 113s, and Humvees. They really brought us back to our dragoon roots during that war.
I mean, the Philippines is doing it right now. The converted M113s into tanks.
I was in a m113 mortar track from Kuwait to Baghdad in 2003, it was newly refurbished when we left, it was fucked by the time we got to Baghdad... No coupala for me, I ended up taking off my plates so I could drop down the 50 cal turret hole faster...
1:57
TFW you get taken prisoner by a guy with a jammed pistol.
No mention of it, but I wonder if the Royal Australian Armoured Corps RAAC organisation had any influence with Australian Cavalry operating in Vung Tau Province out of Nui Dat with M113....? Serving with 2nd Cavalry and 4/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse in the 1975-1986 period (both units did serve in Vietnam during the 1960's) our Troop organisation included an Assault Section on Infantry and 75 mm guns in Fire Support Vehicles (M113 FSV) ... Interesting subject nonetheless, covered well by you!
Using this as a war taxi is fine. Just don't start thinking it will be an IFV or Light Tank because it has tracks
No shit. That's kind of one of the major points of the video hence the clear and obvious delineation between tanks and apcs
Imo, it's a very versatile platform, you literally can make it into anything other than being an actual Tank
You should do a video on Italian armored vehicles, say the Freccia or Ariete.
Always loved this vehicle as The APC something about it makes it the text book definition of one were vehicle before and since just can't match.
The use of M113s at the Battle of Long Tan comes to mind
We used M113 on our perimeter defense force. Loved it
Love the Warno Soundtrack.
don't forget the phillipine army also used this as main battle tanks in Marawi in 2013 (ik its dumb but we got no other choice)
Modern US mechanized tactics if M. Sparks was in charge:
let's be glad he wasn't
Dude I love the background music from rising storm 2 Vietnam hahahaha
Adding a gun to it only makes it a FirevSupport vehicle, not a Tank.
Interesting video. Am I right in thinking the Bradley also killed more enemy armoured fighting vehicles than any other in Gulf War I? I think I read that somewhere?
the M113 just doesn't quit
Was used in OIF, Vietnam, Ukraine, and much more.
The Philippine still has these IFVs and yep they used it as Tanks
IFVs
@@RandomGuy9 Done already fixed it thanks
Better than having ourselves some MBTs and having to dig them out of the mud or worse fall off a cliff
@@ostellan That is literal death sentence for those who crewing them tanks
Philippine geography isn't really suited for MBT's as such IFV and APC are much more suited with touch of amphibious and Anti Aerial capabilities...
In the hands of humans, everything can be used beyond what was intended.
Case in point, cucumbers.
I still cannot believe you can make CHILLED soup out of cucumbers...
I can only quote Bill Murray in the movie Strips. "One heavily armed recreational vehicle."
I use to work on them when I was in the Army and we called them "The Box."
M113 looks awesome!
@BattleOrder >>> Great video...👍
M113 is used as tanks in the Philippines too
1:16 well that rules out most WW1, interwar, and early WW2 tanks. I guess all those tanks weren't actually tanks.
It doesn't. That's a definition for modern vehicles.
Didn't know the greyhound was still in use at that point.
It really is the little car that couldn't give a fuck
Someone once told me it's a big aluminum box. I said yes it is.
And it floats.
The M577 is the mortar carrier, the command variant is the M1068
No, the M1068 is what replaced the M577. The mortar carriers were M106 and M125
Due to the peculiar selection of music in the background of his videos, I have a feeling that Battle Order is a fan of Eugen System's game called Warno.
It was really interesting, I love this type of content, also, if I understanded correctly the M113 used as a tank means they don't have cannons, they still have just machineguns, but noone dismounted from it, they fought from the vehicle, using it as a fortress or a tracked "gunship"?
They used 105mm recoilless l rifles as makeshift tank turrets
Incredible History
Beautiful Holy Box
Amazing what The Real Mil get’s upto when the Doctrine Designers don’t Try
Great Work
Good Presentation and Nice Oration
Thanks
Lovely Box
Actually a more serious problem of the m113 is the armor, its armor is really not thick,and it hasn't sloped armor. The M113 armor is too easy to penetrate with anti-tank guns.
And with the addition of the MG shield, machine gunners are still at high risk of death by snipers
Very interesting topic
Love the WARNO music:)
Yeah these vehicles and tactics haven't been viable for decades with RPG variants being basically everywhere...
They’re working in Ukraine. I know what you mean but in many areas of the world and with the right air cover they are viable strats for a shock attack to break up and absorb set ambushes to allow infantry units to move and air assets to identify and strike hidden hostiles
+@@jango9534+ There's also a big difference between one of these ACAVs and a Modernised M113A3 covered in slat and cage armor.
@@jango9534 well, Ukraine isn't using them on the front lines, they do free up back line equipment, for example the thunder run of Kharkiv was done mainly with Technicals and Humvees
PS: Ukraine doesn't have the air force to take air superiority, but what they have been able to achieve, with what they have is beyond amazing, they will not have air cover.
My grandfather mention that in many cases M113 being ambushed, a DSHK able to shred through the sides and killed most of the transported troops.
Thats why alot of troops in Vietnam chose to ride ontop of the vehicle instead of inside it. They figured they had a better chance of getting out that way.
@@someaussieguy140 that's why they die a lot faster.
Id reskin these with the new foamed steel armor in development. Mount a nest of switch blade drones on top and use the space for the drone control systems. The lesson learned from the Russo/ Ukraine conflict is that you never know when you'll have to dust off the old gear and get it ready for war. China is big ya dig.
Pavn m113 fleet current are all acav variant either using american weapon or soviet stuff
Everyday we stray closer to the Aerogavin.
I was looking for a Mike Sparks reference. 😂
Any vehicle is a tank until an opposing weapon proves otherwise.
M113 is beauty it drives lovely and while driving in amphibious role it is f**king good
4:35 so does the rifle squad literally just 1 m113 with infantry and the support squad is just the recoiless rifles and mortars? Or is it 3 m114 and the recoilless rifles and mortars?
Vietnam proved how flawed the APC concept of the era was. To have a tracked vehicle only armored against small arms and equipped with only a single machinegun, meant it provided no additional tactical value over a truck, but cost far more and drew more enemy fire. Hence why after Vietnam, the M113 would forever be marked for rear line service and support roles. Only serving as logistics and support roles like radio and comms vehicles and ambulances. The M113 is very good for what it is, but as a combat vehicle, its a waste
@Rich they were also better armed and armored. Using dual and even occasionally quad m2 brownings, vs the single browning on an M113. Plus the gun trucks used thicker steel armor than the m113. Better protection against fragmentation and larger 14.5 ammo. but still lacking against RPGs