Lemony Snicket has a quote about good prose that I love: "It is a description I admire very much, because it is so startling that you know no-one else has thought of it before the author did and yet so perfectly clear you wonder why you've never thought of it yourself."
exogenous In moments of fear, humanity is tested. The heavy burden of Exodus is existential loneliness. Today's indulgences, the faithful martyrs died piously. It occurs in the passion of virtue, in the fury of desire, not in necessity, and the ideal of human happiness dies as an ideal of idleness. Endogenous evidence of exogenous truth, drawn from aristocratic prejudices that refused to regard the pathologies of nature as bland and sensible nonsense. Euphoria is everywhere and everywhere.
I adore Douglas Adams’s whimsical prose: “Many people went straight into shock as their minds tried to encompass what they were looking at. The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don’t.”
Just finished Hitchhikers series couple weeks ago. Can't believe it took me this long lol. Strongly, strongly recommend Wodehouse. Bought his Everyman Library collection 2 months ago and am now on my 8th book. Consider me smitten :)) My new gold standard in summer reading.....
I still believe the series has one of the best opening lines of all time. “In the beginning the Universe was created. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” (The Restaurant at the end of the Universe)
a brand new writer showing that to youtube betas would get this as an edit "youre telling us they are in shock instead of showing their reactions to what they are seeing, and can you use a better example for the brick metaphor? using an example of something closer to the size of a ship would make more sense than bricks being compared to ships" guaranteed, todays 25 year old editor will say that. having learned from the best of em... the book tubers of ten years before now... the moral is use your gut because if somethings sparks it sparks and if you try to make it go along with the rules, all its going to do is check boxes, not visually immerse, which is much less about actual words than we think.
Art admirer #1: "I love the subtle glow in this painting--how the brush-work adds texture and depth to imagery. It's evocative." Art admirer #2 (same painting): "Nice sunset. Makes me feel warm inside."
I feel this is the difference why a writer would admire an author and how a reader would admire the same author. The reader likes the story, but doesnt care much about how its done, the writer also likes the story by HOW its told is important as well, if not more, a good story that was poorly told may ruin a book for him.
@@mrnemoid I think this often fits in the first category, because people with high standards tend to talk trash about mainstream stuff they dont like, even though the thing itself is not that bad.
Reminds me of that tale where two bakers are showcasing their cakes to an audience. One is a masterpiece of a cake; excellent design, flawless frosting application, the cake is moist and fluffy. The other isn't as good; sloppy, design leaves much to desire, the cake is somewhat dry and crumbling. But when people come, all they say is: "Wow, TWO cakes? Awesome!"
I think you've actually hit upon a great way to think about the difference between purple and beautiful prose, since both can be elevated and elaborate. It's never tiring to read beautiful prose - it might be work, but it's not tiring. Purple prose is exhausting almost immediately.
@@formerclarity8836 I agree@! Also the difference between purple prose and beautiful prose is The Name of the Wind (beautiful and vivid and draws you into the story and makes everything feel real and emotionally impactful without you having to stop and read the sentence four times to understand it but if you do then you will discover something new each time rather than just trying to comprehend it). This Is How You Survive the Time War is so pretentious and self-indulgent that it almost makes me throw up
@@juliall255And yet indulgent language is like crack cocaine for some of us 😅 Also, it kinda fits the POV. These aren't young adults or middle-aged veterans. They're individuals who have transcended time and reality. Their POV and inner voices are gonna be a bit wild. Sorry to necro this. There's totally arguments against and for it
I group 'good prose' in to two categories. 1. Beautiful prose that describes emotion and the feeling in order to connect with the reader (Rothfuss). 2. Effective prose, which is more basic and describes the scene BUT its strength is it allows the author to more easily inject emotion into the PLOT itself rather than the way the plot is described. (Brandon sanderson)
For sure. Sanderson's books are like 1000 pages, and at that point I really do prefer a straightforward prose- not that Rothfuss writes 'short' books. I def agree that it depends on the story. Personally, I'm not into 'beautiful prose' for war/military stories or grimdark books in general.
I find myself wanting less from Rothfuss, and a lot more from Sanderson, to the point where I can't enjoy either of their writing styles. But there's a third type of prose which include the likes of Gaiman, Hobb, and Le Guin, who ride the line between the two you mentioned. They are the greats in Fantasy, imo. No one else comes close. They have clear prose with strikes of utter brilliance.
@@jamesb7924 I understand what you mean. I read rothfuss and often find myself wishing he’d have just focused more on his plotting. I read BS and often wish he’d write scenes with a tad more nuance. But I suppose it’s personal taste with many people preferring each style. I think they’re both valid ways to write, just different.
I doubt you will ever read the works of Halldór Laxness, The Nobel Prize winning author from Iceland ( which is also where im from ) but his prose is so remarkable that every line sings. His prose sings, because there is not a single sentence that goes to waste. I absolutely adore his prose.
During my army (obligatory in my country), a not so easy period and situation, I happen to find that the camp had a bookcase. In there, I was drawn to a book called world light. I didn't know the book or the author beforehand, but it kept me a really good company and saw me through the end of the service!
@@leykosminotauros Oh wow. Finally someone outside Iceland that has read him. World Light is one of my favourites of his. Im happy to know it kept you company to the end of the service.
@@Greendalewitch Tbh, it wasn't easy to read. It's quite different than nowadays' literature, and also the edition in greek was from 1978 using the older tone system, but nonetheless, even if it sounds silly, it felt like a sign, and it was a much needed company. A great book indeed!
Can you recommend any specific translations? I always feel something is lost, no matter how good the translation. Makes me wish I could speak every language on earth.
Literally went on UA-cam cause I was getting frustrated trying to write and this video was just uploaded and it’s always good to hear your insights, thank you Merphy! :)
Personally my favorite kind of prose is not the kind that stands out in its own but the kind that’s very impactful in context. Simplicity in prose can go a long way for me. For example: “She longs for him so greatly. She would go to the moon and back again just to please him etc.” Hits so much less than something simple like: “She wondered if he would smile when he saw her.”
I’m an aspiring author, and I definitely use average/boring prose. I’d love to be able to write beautiful prose one day, but it made me very happy to hear some Sanderson. The scene you read sounds exactly like how I write, and people love Sanderson. Just gave me a bit of a confidence boost 😊
(my English is not very good sorry) I'm an aspiring author as well and I think I fall more on the beautiful prose side, but beautiful prose would be nothing without normal prose. That's the thing that makes it stand out at the end of the day, not just the way it's written. And just because ideas are not conveyed in a beautiful way does not mean they don't have a strong essence. Often times there is even more power in simplicity and pragmatism. We simply write what our eyes can see, and I believe writing is an act of surrender and honesty. Do not lie about what you see, that's how you lose sight of the Way. I'd much rather walk a meaningful journey of discovery than tell stories about empty shells and echoes.. and slowly fade into silence and confusion. Clarity is the base of art
Prose is the writer's voice. It's how they talk on the page. That's pretty much it. Some are evocative, vivid, and compelling, others are dull, turgid, excessive. Purple prose is misused language, over-reaching, mixed metaphors, nonsensical similes. Good prose is clear, touching on depth, usually via metaphor. It is effective in communicating layered aspects of people and situations. It is articulate, using words correctly. The right word for its context, not the fancy one to impress someone. Great discussion, Merphy. Some of your examples levitated my eyebrows but I had already eaten lunch so I was okay. In the main this is solid. Brava. It's the singer, not the song.
Plain response: I enjoy these alot. Proserific response: It's like plucking out a single crystalline facet of priceless stained glass. It's just a piece of the shattered landscape, but its light deserves specific study.
My favorite prose is Joe Abercrombie’s. It’s easy to read and doesn’t take much to get through, but it’s simplicity is so beautifully done. It’s brutal, concise, but still has a lot of depth. Great stuff.
Yes! Simple, not flowery, but also not boring. I'd been trying to get through Mistborn, made it halfway through the second book and unfortunately had to give up. Sad to say, the writing just seemed dull to me. Then I picked up The Blade Itself. Like a fresh breeze. Not to mention I fell in love with the characters.
As someone who's not as avid of a reader as you I appreciate these literary breakdowns because I don't have to worry about spoilers, or adding another book to my already long wishlist.
The prose that struck me the most was Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5. All of his sentences are sharp, direct, and staccato. It's almost entirely simple sentences, ands, buts, or becauses are hard to find. It made the whole story vivid, clear, and jarring. It's probably my favorite book to read on prose alone.
15:26 I started watching this video precisely to get an understanding of how that specific kind of prose is. and you just said "Do you need an example for that?" And just skipped over it... I look forward to the day when your favourite author writes a book that you have Been long expecting in PURPLE prose.
To say the truth, whenever am reading a book and the author starts with there flowery prose, my brain just shuts. I think thats why I love Sanderson, I like being on point.
@@JOSEPH-vs2gc and I think that is a good technique. I once saw the Sleeping Beauty ballet which was a lot of fun, but one scene stood out to me. There was a scene where she was meeting suitors and she was standing on point on one foot the whole time. One would take her hand and slowly spin her, let go, she would raise her hands above her head and then lower them to take the hand of the next all while holding the same position with her legs. What she did was incredibly impressive, but she was not strong enough to maintain it the entire time and she was shaking and wasn't as steady by the end, was only breifly raising her hands before immediately grabbing the next man's hand. It wasn't a good performance. Doing things like that while practicing is great! Push your abilities, just not on stage. The work you display should be what you have mastered, not what you are still learning or a week point. If an artist is good at creating landscapes they shouldn't try to put a portrait in the gallery until they have studied and become good at that also, and it's okay for them to never want to become good at creating portraits, there are already artists that do that. You don't have to like Sanderson's work, plain prose isn't for everybody, but clearly a lot of people prefer it, so there is no point in critisizing him because he never got good at a different kind of prose. He doesn't have to, there are other author's that do know how to write like that, and some of them probably don't know how to write in plain prose. Which may sound weird since Sanderson writes at an 8th grade reading level, but it might be hard for someone to write plainly enough for an 8th grader to read it. I took a technical writing class and that was all about simplifying how you were writing, which was surprisingly difficult. Beautiful prose is not better than plain and plain is not better than beautiful.
* Cormac McCarthy is the god of balancing the most beautiful prose-poetry with the most intense and realistic horror/gore... have yet to encounter another author who even gets a little close to him in terms of this.
I like these examples, particularly the purple prose which felt very emotional. Pratchett is my go to for excellent prose, with lines like: “Something screamed. It was harsh, guttural, it was malice and hunger given a voice.” -Going Postal I like when authors sprinkle in that little bit of extra oomph at just the right moment, rather than having the whole text be flowery writing, or too emotionally heavy with excessive use of figurative language. Another Pratchett gem from the same book: “It’s a plan that will work, Moist thought. It’s simple and deadly, like a razor.” A wonderful description that is itself simple yet effective. Bonus points for occurring while the protagonist is shaving!
I appreciate you so much for saying that there is nothing wrong with purple prose, or with liking purple prose, even though you're not purple prose kinda person yourself; Thank you!. 💜
Immediate note: it's not snobbery to want the authors to give you craftsmanship. Just like you wouldn't want a bricklayer to build you a shitty house ... it's all about the care and attention to how it's made.
To me, the snobbery comes in when people describe just-okay prose as worse than it really is. When I see people complain that Brandon Sanderson or JK Rowling write TERRIBLE prose I roll my eyes. It's like they're trying to one up with you with how much higher their standards are than yours or trying to make you feel lesser for liking something that has supposedly bad prose. I think if you're talking to people about how high your standards are for prose, you should express that so you don't come off as telling people "I'm too good for the crap you like!"
I think the problem can become when craftsmanship is seen as equalling beautiful. I’m not saying you or Merphy is doing that, but it happens a lot. My fiction is often very plain, but my characters are very much everyday folks who don’t talk or think that way. It’s very intentional, but I doubt many people would call it pretty. I doubt more people would hold it up as good craft, but writing in deep POV means being very clear and intentional about how the character talks, not how I as the author does. That’s notwithstanding me sitting here trying to think of a good synonym for nice, but it needs to be one syllable because of the cadence of the sentence. That’s boring, and probably no one will care, but that’s all craft too.
'Tis true that craft comes on many scales. There's nothing wrong with plain prose if it fits the story and characters. Unfortunately there's the backlash against Hemingway and how so many waves of authors have been obsessed with trying to be as minimalist as he is. As a result, plain prose gets generalized, and writers who don't even know who Hemingway is get lynched by the post-post-modern mob. The way I see it, craft is performed with tools. Prose flourishes are a tool in the toolbox, and you won't be using it for every job.
But prose can be good and expertly done without being flowery or beautiful. There is a difference between plain prose and bad prose. When done right, plain prose make the words invisible, so people can get completely immersed in a story. It is very intentional if the author knows what they're doing.
More poetic prose takes me out of a story, while someone like Sanderson can write in a way where I forget I'm reading-I get completely immersed in the story, my imagination on overdrive.
Same. I admire the art of beautiful and purple prose, but standard/boring/straight forward prose prevents the story from dragging to me. And as you mentioned, my imagination can handle the rest
@@teehee-yn3jh the thing is that people often confuse "poetic prose and beutiful" prose with "purple prose" and they are not the same, purple prose is overdone, pretentious and distracting it isn't even really poetic as in many cases it's just cringy, true beautiful poetic prose has rythm, musicality or can create beautiful literary images that inmerse you in the story by being evocative and emotional not distracting, purple prose is just bad writing
@@camiloordonez4906 I agree for sure, but sometimes beautiful prose is too distracting for me. Idk, maybe it's because I'm a very straight forward person in general, and pretty/musical prose(not purple prose) is just unnecessary at times for me. Like Name of the Wind has beautiful writing and a lyrical prose, but I'm not always in the mood to be reading something like that. It's less of what's 'better' to me and more of just a personal preference
I just finished The Lies of Locke Lamora. Loved it. The closer I got to the end, the harder it became to put the book down. Immediately started Red Seas Under Red Skies and just after the first 15 pages I am already really excited for what’s to come. Thanks for always talking about this series so passionately Merphy. The main reason I picked it up. XD
Wizards 1st rule, and yes I’ve heard it all about how it was stolen from Jordan, even though I don’t see it, is a great book with terrible clunky prose. With Goodkinds second book, thankfully, he correct it, and wrote an excellent book. Nicholas Sparks writes simple five word sentences (I know this because my wife complained). This is a different kind of clunky, and in seeing the same, repetitive structure, it throws you out of the story. And while you call Sanderson’s prose simple, his prose still flows. To me it’s still beautiful, and it gets to the point. It’s a flowing prose I like, simple or purple, and I try to emulate it in my writing. Robert Jorden is on the verge of Purple, and I say this only because he loves to explain too much during action scenes, when I want him to just get to the point! Good video, and lots of food for thought for my 4th book. Can’t stop learning, and maybe one day I’ll see my book in your hands. My 4th book.
Hey Merphy, just wanted to say that it was very useful, at least for one aspiring writer. Good job breaking it down in such detail. Apparently, I do fall somewhere in the middle. I guess you write what you like to read. Not too much purple prose, but at the same time keeping the language interesting and fresh. I could simply describe the story, but it feels like my artpiece and not just a medium of narration. I believe authors should have a deeper relationship with words themselves. Sure it's twice the work, but also twice the quality and artistic value. Have a pleasant weekend. :)
Your feedback is great. I’ve been pushed in writing groups to dump the metaphorical in favor of realism regarding what is possible. In other words, sunlight can’t be felt or heard as sound from the longing of a thousand worlds lived and yet unlived as of yet. Going back to the novel to input my true voice, more prose.
This is very interesting to me, I’m doing some creative writing for a personal project and was just wondering about this. Thanks for predicting what I needed!
My personal opinion on purple prose is that it can be super effective when used sparingly. Like that paragraph on love example: if that jumped in for a climax after a well paced character's journey on learning how to love or finding their soulmate or something, it would be super impactful. But if it's all purple prose it can feel melodramatic. I love when there's a balance, which is what I try to achieve in my writing. I love to use more description when it's natural for a character to muse over something, and not when I want action, because purple prose can take the momentum out of a scene too!
Extremely helpful foundation, thank you. Here are 5 PROSE definitions I didn't know 21 minutes ago: PURPLE: Hyporbolic & metaphorical descriptions of underlying emotions within scenes / characters. BEAUTIFUL: Metaphorical & vivid descriptions of emotion in a scence or character(s). DRY: Straightforward, objective, & matter-of-fact descriptions of characters, settings, scenes, etc. BORING: Straightforward & matter-of-fact to the point of feeling stilted or lifeless like a school textbook. BAD: Poor {syntax} grammar, sentence structure, repetative / redundant wording (or structure, as in long unbroken blocks of text?), contradictory wording, or anything else that comes across as "over done" or "over exagerated" to the reader.
I differentiate between style and voice. For me, voice is the way a particular writer sees the world and style is the framework (syntax) that presents it. In this example for instance: “Same ol’, same ol’.” Simone twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a stand trapped in the corner. A thin medusa, made of synthetic bamboo, wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a half-decent smile from somewhere. “How’s your day been?” 'suffocating skin', 'throttled the collar', 'trapped in the corner' and 'A thin medusa, made of synthetic bamboo, wearing her coat' is voice. It's unlikely that any other writer would have described it that way. The style is how it's presented.
I really like your channel and this video. I found it very useful. I never paid attention to my literature classes in highschool. I maybe read 3 books during that time. A year after I finished highschool I started reading for fun, and I made it to 30 books both in my own language and English. So I'm still learning about these topics. Thank you for these types of videos.
The Emperor’s Soul is my favorite Sanderson work, in no small part because his prose is on another level here, and the short story itself is tight yet evocative.
The best prose I've ever read was in the 'Shatter Me' series by Tahereh Mafi. She gave each POV character entirely different prose. One character is very dreamy so the prose is very flowery and lyrical, one is very strict and methodical so the sentences are short and precise, and one is a very funny 'bro' and his way of thinking is very humorous so his prose are very lighthearted and funny, etc. etc...
Yeah, as a younger person who studied writing the first few pages of any story were dissected more than read. Then, slightly more mature, novels were critiqued by the grammar police - also not a great plan for enjoyment. Finally, I got back to where I began, which is to say if I liked it, it worked and I don't care how or why.
Repetition and word choice is something my brain keys in on. Like in a recent book the author used 'alpine' and 'cubicle' which seemed out of place. There was also a stretch where every second generic guard was described as 'huge' as well as one of the characters described as 'huge'. I might ot have minded so much but this was all in about 30 pages.
i actually prefer when very simple prose where the metaphors are more subtle. I don’t like “beautiful” prose most of the time because it is too on your face. It is important to add feeling to the descriptions, but I prefer it if its added in a way that is not blatantly obvious and cliched. For example: She is sitting down when he says “I’m sorry,” and her head snaps up, her eyes wide. He watches her intently and tries to study her expression. She is dressed in a brown cardigan and still has the short haircut she had the last time he saw her. The blue of her eyes shines in the midst of that much brown. The room is full of boxes. Everything is in boxes. So he repeats “I’m sorry, Rory.”
This was informative & helpful for both readers & writers! It's very easy to say "I think this has bad prose" without explaining what you mean by bad prose, because everyone's definition is personal!
Wonderful video, Merphy! This was comprehensive with great examples. You mentioned your friends who don’t care or notice or nitpick prose, but I can’t help but wonder if prose affects us readers on an unconscious level more than we realize. If the author rewrote Beneath the Dragoneye Moons with better prose, I wonder if the story would’ve had even greater impact. Maybe your friends would’ve loved it even more. Just a thought!
I had never heard the term “purple prose” but apparently that’s my thing. I read exclusively purple prose for so long that everything else sounds terrible to me! I have such a hard time with book recommendations and now I know exactly why.
Would love to see this talked about more. Specifically, there is a wealth of great fantasy (pre-tolkien) that is criminally overlooked in book tube. Seems most are fixated on newer releases at the expense of great fiction. If it's too old or too "purple" there's an inclination to label one a snob. This is the real snobbery, with not much to back it up, at that.
I agree except for the "real" part. There's no mysterious secret snobs that make everyone else not snobs. Every camp has normal people, and then the ones that try to ruin anyone else liking a thing they don't.
Personally, I abhor purple prose, and I have a hard time getting through beautiful prose. I don’t discriminate against anyone who does, though. I just don’t care and get slightly annoyed when you go through five sentences just to tell me you walked over some bodies. But I also recognize that it can sometimes break of the monotony of straightforward prose, which is why I try to include it in my writing.
For someone that just got into writing, and has no college education, this helped a lot in defining what what prose is. It also encourages me to continue writing
This kind of content is so satisfying for the brain. Love it. Also I think that communicative language is under noticed, so I really love your emphasis on the communication aspect of these terms.
My fav is Peter Beagle. "The unicorn lived in a lilac wood, and she lived all alone. She was very old, though she did not know it, and she was no longer the careless color of sea foam, but rather the color of snow falling on a moonlit night. But her eyes were still clear and unwearied, and she still moved like a shadow on the sea."
Yes. I couldn't help staring at "The Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy" on the shelf in the background of this video, and thinking of how great the Brits are at writing funny, witty prose (Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, Lewis Carroll, P.G. Wodehouse, etc.)
@@Steve_Stowers I'm actually looking into searching for authors with similar styles to Terry Pratchet, Niel Gaimen, Jonathan Stroud etc Would you say those listed authors are a good recommendation?
@@QuillASMR If you like Gaiman and Pratchett and haven't tried Douglas Adams, you should. (Gaiman has even written a book about Adams.) Lewis Carroll is the author of Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking Glass, and I think many people who haven't read them don't realize how comedic they are. They're very well written, in a way that I think influenced much British humor that came afterward, and they're very funny if you have the right kind of sense of humor. P. G. Wodehouse (best known for his Jeeves and Wooster stories) didn't write fantasy (except in the very loose sense of his stories NOT being grittily realistic), but he did write in a very clever, witty style that's one of the reasons his fans love his writing so much. If you like Jonathan Stroud, you might try "The Gates" by John Connolly.
Uuuu, finaly someone addresses this subject directly. It is not all that difficult to figure out the different terms but still, better to know than to guess. Thanks, Merphy!
Thank you for the video. I have never heard about "purple prose" and also never really understood what "good prose" entailed, so I really enjoyed watching this.
I have to study The Bloody Chamber for my A level, and it is THE WORST purple prose I have ever read! Critics call it 'whimsical' and 'lush' but its ludicrous. Hardly a sentence in the whole book makes sense! I hate it. Daphne du Maurier's prose is glorious. She gets so deep into the character's psychology so easily.
ONE THING ABOUT SANDERSON: I feel his magical details and characters' dialogue make up for the lack of beautiful prose. I don't want to spoil anything but Kaladins more emotional scenes (if you know you know) and Vins internal conflict said out loud in mistborn BROKE MY EMOTIONS, I SOBBED. HIS DEEPLY CENTERED CHARACTERS AND MAGIC SYSTEMS COMPLETELY MAKE UP FOR THE DIRECT PROSE, IN MY OPINION
Fitzpatrick writing prose is my favorite, the way he describes scenes , it brings the reader to the scene. I also love the part of "for what it's worth.." ...I enjoyed the prose of Harper lee, reading is like breathing, can be without it. Nice video Murphy📚
For me, the strongest prose is precise, concise, and moderately poetic. It doesn't describe anything that it doesn't need to, and it describes things in ways that characterize the narrator, characters, and/or world on a nonliteral level. It provides only the amount of literal details necessary, and while it is very clear about those details, it concentrates on the depth behind the literal.
This was helpful to me. Whenever I write, there's a lack of prose. It's typically two poorly described characters chatting or fighting. I can probably write decent prose if I ever wrote prose at all 😅
i personally like more poetic prose, the kind that often gets described as "lyrical". i like when the author pays attention to the weight of words and the flow of sentences, and even considers the structure and composition of paragraphs so the sentiments being delivered hit with the maximum punch. but i'm a very abstract person who can't help but exist in simile and metaphor, and for me, the art and craft of writing has the express purpose of making the abstract concrete, and that's not always simply done. there are times in books, yes, when the story just needs to move along, when plot points need to progress, or a scene needs to transition. but if that's the bulk of it, those are the kinds of books that you read and sure, you enjoy them, but you don't really remember them. for me, purple prose has to be excessively florid to deserve the title (your example were pretty spot-on, especially since they were dialogue, and who talks like that!). but ultimately the style of prose is the vehicle of getting the author's thoughts into our heads, and it's an incredibly subjective, aesthetic choice; it's like not being able to watch a show because you can't stand the animation style, or listen to a song purely because the singer's voice has a quirk that bothers you. i'm rambling, though, so i'll quit while i'm not too far behind :)
Randomly clicked on this video to see some discussion on prose. Subscribed so fast when you're the first youtuber I've seen to name-drop my favorite author. Joe Abercrombie.
I see that people have different opinions, which is great. Though, for me, I love beautiful prose. There's something about it. It's like Heavenly, kind of God given.
As someone who is completely prose-blind, I found this video incredibly helpful. I still can't say I understand why people prefer certain kinds of prose over others, but at least now I have a better idea of what they're talking about when they comment on it, heh heh
@@choco1199 I used to read a lot more than I do now. I think I got a little burned out looking for books whose stories I'll enjoy. That and I've been trying to write my own stories
I'm not really a book reader but I found this video pretty interesting because I never really cared to recognize differences in authors' prose. Great insight!
I think a good way to take the negative connotations out of some of these is to label them differently. Example: I usually refer to "boring proses" as "invisible proses" and "dry proses" as "technical prose." Not sure how I would change "purple proses" though. Seams fine as is imo.
Having read around 400 books, the most beautiful prose for me is found in Thomas Wolfe’s “Look Homeward, Angel” and the sequel “Of Time and the River.” I adore his writing and can't do it justice by describing it in my own words, so here’s just a snippet: “A destiny that leads the English to the Dutch is strange enough; but one that leads from Epsom into Pennsylvania, and thence into the hills that shut in Altamont over the proud coral cry of the cock, and the soft stone smile of an angel, is touched by that dark miracle of chance which makes new magic in a dusty world. Each of us is all the sums he has not counted: subtract us into nakedness and night again, and you shall see begin in Crete four thousand years ago the love that ended yesterday in Texas. The seed of our destruction will blossom in the desert, the alexin of our cure grows by a mountain rock, and our lives are haunted by a Georgia slattern, because a London cutpurse went unhung. Each moment is the fruit of forty thousand years. The minute-winning days, like flies, buzz home to death, and every moment is a window on all time.”
Well done video on prose, and there's definitely a time for most of them. Malazan Book of the Fallen, well there's a doozey you're biting off! I think I made it to Reaper's Gale, the 7th book in the series, before I got distracted with another series, or tired of the Malazan series, or both, can't really remembers what made me drop the series. Of all things I love in the books is the way Erikson is able to make you sympathize, understand, love and hate god tier characters and do it on an epic level. Also his ability to elevate normal characters into god tier levels just floored me. They are a tough series to get through, but with big payoff throughout. I thoroughly enjoyed them, so not sure why I dropped them. I'll definitely be picking them up again in the future.
I think that you will really like Kingdom. It's a war story manga. It's just like every war that have existed, but like no war story that have ever been told
Beautiful Prose: Oh, I write that way without knowing I do. Sweet. Purple Prose: CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALM DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN! I'm running out of oxygen here, seriously. Simple Prose: The man knows how to get to the point, which is fine. I need something LITTLE sharper, but I think with my emotions, especially as a writer. Dry Prose: Can you give me an example of what distinguishes this from simple prose, please? Bad Prose: And this is why people like me (writing tutors) exist. Gods know I'm not omnipotent, but, like, "yelled with rage", for example, that could be shouted, boomed, spat, shrieked, so on, depending on the impression you're trying to give. Stronger adjectives are good things. And the exclamation points thing is cute, sure, but at the same time, like...not all the time. My niece is seven, and she doesn't talk like that. I think purple prose annoys me the most of these.
I think you actually just articulated for me why I just can never be swept up wholly by Sanderson's books. I never quite thought of his style as more direct, maybe because of the themes and topics often being evocative, but... yes, I do know that I tend to enjoy a little bit of roundabout or layered words more often. I have a harder time with Stormlight for it, even if I like the concepts. You mentioned Erikson and that's actually what made me enthused about his books before anything else, and I agree about Abercrombie as well. It's always such a wonder how not only can the balance of prose with the material affect so, but also the reader's preference in the mix.
I'm always curious about Pros because you do say it a lot and it makes me question my own Pros when writing. So this video is helpful for me. Thank you!
I have never really cared about prose, that is until i started reading Aristotle and Dante discover the secrets of the universe. It's written so beautifully, simply, with so much meaning in each sentence. I was left in awww! So i came here to learn more about prose
Terry Pratchett has my favourite prose. Overall though, I tend to like flowery prose. Which is the reason why I've put off reading Brandon Sanderson. I'd never heard of purple prose before. That's an interesting way to say that xD
i would recomend trying out stormlight. his prose is much better there and sanderson is an awesome writer and its a shame to not read his books just because of his prose
Very late, but the term "Purple prose" is derived from the idea that what merphy called beautiful prose is blue, while the more effective writing of Sanderson is called Red. The idea is that purple is what happens when a red-style writer tries to write in a blue style.
Such an insightful video, thanks Merph! I've been thinking a lot about prose lately (I'm writing my own book), so this was perfect. I'm not a very writing-oriented reader, so the bottom line for me is: If it takes me out of the story itself, it's doing something wrong. I tend to go for more "boring" prose, because at the end of the day I just want to know what's happening and let the story play out in my mind. I have nothing against beautiful prose, but I have noticed it's more likely to take me out of the actual story, and that's where my problem with it lies
17:04 - I think this is actually not as contradictory as it seems.... to be unfazed is basically to not be rattled, or to not be caught off guard or confused or surprised, or such. You actually can feel angered, without actually losing your /control/composure or without having been caught totally unawares or disturbed in an unsettling and/or [outwardly ]composure-breaking kinda way. You can be angered, but have been completely unshocked by it or absolutely have seen it coming, or whilst totally keeping your outward cool about it. (If that makes sense? Like, maybe you feel the emotion[ internally], but your face doesn't even twitch because you have a stone-cold poker face and your pulse doesn't even jump or pick up speed at all or anything like that...it just kind of simmers, unseen, under the surface / in the background/ instead.) Or maybe you do feel angered, but you also don't feel personally hurt or insulted or anything; so, you're not angered in a red-hot 'I want to go after you[ and/or get justice] for this' kinda way, you're angered more in an ice-cold 'I am writing you off and no longer even care what happens to you or if you ever come back here again' kind of way. Like, you are provoked into washing your hands of it and walking away, or you were provoked into not even trying anymore to stop them or get through to them[ or anything] ever again; rather than being provoked into lashing out or into a fuming, muttering fury. Y'know? But... maybe that's just me.🤔 🤷♀️🤷♀️😅😁 idekk- Loll Or, actually, perhaps he[ who was leaving] is the one who is unaffected or undeterred[ by whatever she said or did before] but also angered[ perhaps inspite of her best attempts to dissuade him]. It's actually totally, grammatically ambiguous if she is the one 'unfazed, but angered' while watching him leave-or if she is watching while he is the one who is leaving in an 'unfazed, but angered' kind of way. Especially without further context. ^-^
This made me understand prose more. I saw videos about prose but its too technical for me. Looks like I prefer Sanderson's prose for the books I read this year. Simple and direct and in the moment.
I absolutely love what most people would call "dry," or "average." I'm reading it to get the job done, to find out what happens next, not to read borderline poetry. I totally get why people might like more "beautiful" prose, but it just doesn't appeal to me. In fact, it frustrates me q.q
I don’t like reading books filled with beautiful prose because it gets confusing as to what’s actually going on, but I like stories with a beautiful prose every few pages. Keeps things interesting and evocative. But no, please not every, single line.
@@月光-z6q This is so accurate. I love the occasional flourish, but when they go off on tangents and show off their vocabularies, I just get so bored. There is a fine line between the right amount of flourish and not enough, so for me personally it's a delicate balance. Readers, Read the prose you like, though, you don't have to like straight-forward and simple and you don't have to like pretty and diverse (aka "beautiful" prose :D). Same goes for writers, write the prose you like :)))
I am a boring prose writer. I thought I needed all this gorgeous, flowery, poetic prose but I was vindicated when I read Sanderson. I have never liked reading overtly beautiful prose. If I have to analyze what’s being said for 4 paragraphs to understand that someone is looking at a mountain…it just takes me out of the moment.
I'm trying so hard to better understand what prose is and how I should use it in my work. All I know is that it's ordinary writing (whatever that's supposed to mean) and important.
Like Chuck Palahniuk said in his blog: plot-driven or character-driven are always a questions of personal taste, however, VOICE-driven fiction is always the strongest among these three.
This was helpful! Thank you for making it. I've always been a casual reader but around the end of 2021 I started to dive deeper into the fantasy genre (from romance fantasy to more epic tales). Understanding pose helps me, in turn, understand what I like in a book's writings style. Case in point. I have found a sort of "sub genre" in fantasy pulling more on the elements of Eastern European folklore. I truly enjoy those books but even within that sphere some I like more than others. Looking back on it, I would say it is those authors who are more "dry pose" that appeal to me. They throw in a few lavish "purple pose" from time to time but that's about it. Also, I find that sometimes books with these more lavish prose become lengthy to read. As I'm a more "cut to the chase" kind of reader, I tend to loose interest. But maybe there is a difference between flowery or lavish prose and just rambling lol.
![Dear Authors... Writing Emotions [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/51hROECydxs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Dear Authors... Writing Emotions [CC]](/img/tr.png)
Lemony Snicket has a quote about good prose that I love: "It is a description I admire very much, because it is so startling that you know no-one else has thought of it before the author did and yet so perfectly clear you wonder why you've never thought of it yourself."
Love this!
exogenous In moments of fear, humanity is tested. The heavy burden of Exodus is existential loneliness. Today's indulgences, the faithful martyrs died piously. It occurs in the passion of virtue, in the fury of desire, not in necessity, and the ideal of human happiness dies as an ideal of idleness. Endogenous evidence of exogenous truth, drawn from aristocratic prejudices that refused to regard the pathologies of nature as bland and sensible nonsense. Euphoria is everywhere and everywhere.
I adore Douglas Adams’s whimsical prose:
“Many people went straight into shock as their minds tried to encompass what they were looking at. The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don’t.”
Just finished Hitchhikers series couple weeks ago. Can't believe it took me this long lol. Strongly, strongly recommend Wodehouse. Bought his Everyman Library collection 2 months ago and am now on my 8th book. Consider me smitten :)) My new gold standard in summer reading.....
Kind of reminds me of Terry Pratchett and DIscworld. "At 130, he had spent most of his life as an old man. Didn't seem fair, really."
I still believe the series has one of the best opening lines of all time.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” (The Restaurant at the end of the Universe)
a brand new writer showing that to youtube betas would get this as an edit "youre telling us they are in shock instead of showing their reactions to what they are seeing, and can you use a better example for the brick metaphor? using an example of something closer to the size of a ship would make more sense than bricks being compared to ships"
guaranteed, todays 25 year old editor will say that. having learned from the best of em... the book tubers of ten years before now... the moral is use your gut because if somethings sparks it sparks and if you try to make it go along with the rules, all its going to do is check boxes, not visually immerse, which is much less about actual words than we think.
That second sentence is so odd. Is that supposed to be comedy?
Art admirer #1: "I love the subtle glow in this painting--how the brush-work adds texture and depth to imagery. It's evocative."
Art admirer #2 (same painting): "Nice sunset. Makes me feel warm inside."
I feel this is the difference why a writer would admire an author and how a reader would admire the same author. The reader likes the story, but doesnt care much about how its done, the writer also likes the story by HOW its told is important as well, if not more, a good story that was poorly told may ruin a book for him.
@@saymyname2618 Pretty much proving Merphy's point, that it's all subjective.
You forgot Art admirer #3: “This painting is trash, a second grader could have done this and it’s boring. Only idiots like this painting”.
@@mrnemoid
I think this often fits in the first category, because people with high standards tend to talk trash about mainstream stuff they dont like, even though the thing itself is not that bad.
Reminds me of that tale where two bakers are showcasing their cakes to an audience.
One is a masterpiece of a cake; excellent design, flawless frosting application, the cake is moist and fluffy.
The other isn't as good; sloppy, design leaves much to desire, the cake is somewhat dry and crumbling.
But when people come, all they say is:
"Wow, TWO cakes? Awesome!"
I honestly respect the work that goes into making purple prose so much. That being said, I was already tired of it after the first example
I think you've actually hit upon a great way to think about the difference between purple and beautiful prose, since both can be elevated and elaborate. It's never tiring to read beautiful prose - it might be work, but it's not tiring. Purple prose is exhausting almost immediately.
@@formerclarity8836
I agree@! Also the difference between purple prose and beautiful prose is The Name of the Wind (beautiful and vivid and draws you into the story and makes everything feel real and emotionally impactful without you having to stop and read the sentence four times to understand it but if you do then you will discover something new each time rather than just trying to comprehend it).
This Is How You Survive the Time War is so pretentious and self-indulgent that it almost makes me throw up
@@juliall255And yet indulgent language is like crack cocaine for some of us 😅 Also, it kinda fits the POV. These aren't young adults or middle-aged veterans. They're individuals who have transcended time and reality. Their POV and inner voices are gonna be a bit wild.
Sorry to necro this. There's totally arguments against and for it
I group 'good prose' in to two categories. 1. Beautiful prose that describes emotion and the feeling in order to connect with the reader (Rothfuss). 2. Effective prose, which is more basic and describes the scene BUT its strength is it allows the author to more easily inject emotion into the PLOT itself rather than the way the plot is described. (Brandon sanderson)
For sure. Sanderson's books are like 1000 pages, and at that point I really do prefer a straightforward prose- not that Rothfuss writes 'short' books. I def agree that it depends on the story. Personally, I'm not into 'beautiful prose' for war/military stories or grimdark books in general.
I find myself wanting less from Rothfuss, and a lot more from Sanderson, to the point where I can't enjoy either of their writing styles. But there's a third type of prose which include the likes of Gaiman, Hobb, and Le Guin, who ride the line between the two you mentioned. They are the greats in Fantasy, imo. No one else comes close. They have clear prose with strikes of utter brilliance.
@@jamesb7924 I understand what you mean. I read rothfuss and often find myself wishing he’d have just focused more on his plotting. I read BS and often wish he’d write scenes with a tad more nuance. But I suppose it’s personal taste with many people preferring each style. I think they’re both valid ways to write, just different.
This is a good breakdown
I doubt you will ever read the works of Halldór Laxness, The Nobel Prize winning author from Iceland ( which is also where im from ) but his prose is so remarkable that every line sings. His prose sings, because there is not a single sentence that goes to waste. I absolutely adore his prose.
During my army (obligatory in my country), a not so easy period and situation, I happen to find that the camp had a bookcase. In there, I was drawn to a book called world light. I didn't know the book or the author beforehand, but it kept me a really good company and saw me through the end of the service!
@@leykosminotauros Oh wow. Finally someone outside Iceland that has read him. World Light is one of my favourites of his. Im happy to know it kept you company to the end of the service.
Well NOW i have to check him out
Thank You
@@Greendalewitch Tbh, it wasn't easy to read. It's quite different than nowadays' literature, and also the edition in greek was from 1978 using the older tone system, but nonetheless, even if it sounds silly, it felt like a sign, and it was a much needed company. A great book indeed!
Can you recommend any specific translations? I always feel something is lost, no matter how good the translation. Makes me wish I could speak every language on earth.
Literally went on UA-cam cause I was getting frustrated trying to write and this video was just uploaded and it’s always good to hear your insights, thank you Merphy! :)
Personally my favorite kind of prose is not the kind that stands out in its own but the kind that’s very impactful in context. Simplicity in prose can go a long way for me.
For example: “She longs for him so greatly. She would go to the moon and back again just to please him etc.”
Hits so much less than something simple like:
“She wondered if he would smile when he saw her.”
I’m an aspiring author, and I definitely use average/boring prose. I’d love to be able to write beautiful prose one day, but it made me very happy to hear some Sanderson. The scene you read sounds exactly like how I write, and people love Sanderson. Just gave me a bit of a confidence boost 😊
I was really struck by the simplicity of it. There's so much left unsaid that the line really does linger.
(my English is not very good sorry) I'm an aspiring author as well and I think I fall more on the beautiful prose side, but beautiful prose would be nothing without normal prose. That's the thing that makes it stand out at the end of the day, not just the way it's written. And just because ideas are not conveyed in a beautiful way does not mean they don't have a strong essence. Often times there is even more power in simplicity and pragmatism.
We simply write what our eyes can see, and I believe writing is an act of surrender and honesty. Do not lie about what you see, that's how you lose sight of the Way. I'd much rather walk a meaningful journey of discovery than tell stories about empty shells and echoes.. and slowly fade into silence and confusion. Clarity is the base of art
Prose is the writer's voice. It's how they talk on the page. That's pretty much it. Some are evocative, vivid, and compelling, others are dull, turgid, excessive. Purple prose is misused language, over-reaching, mixed metaphors, nonsensical similes. Good prose is clear, touching on depth, usually via metaphor. It is effective in communicating layered aspects of people and situations. It is articulate, using words correctly. The right word for its context, not the fancy one to impress someone. Great discussion, Merphy. Some of your examples levitated my eyebrows but I had already eaten lunch so I was okay. In the main this is solid. Brava. It's the singer, not the song.
Plain response: I enjoy these alot.
Proserific response: It's like plucking out a single crystalline facet of priceless stained glass. It's just a piece of the shattered landscape, but its light deserves specific study.
My favorite prose is Joe Abercrombie’s. It’s easy to read and doesn’t take much to get through, but it’s simplicity is so beautifully done. It’s brutal, concise, but still has a lot of depth. Great stuff.
Body found floating by the docks....... 😁
Exactly!
Agreed. It’s easy to read, yet always vivid and descriptive enough. Flows perfectly. I never feel like any detail is extraneous.
Yes! Simple, not flowery, but also not boring. I'd been trying to get through Mistborn, made it halfway through the second book and unfortunately had to give up. Sad to say, the writing just seemed dull to me. Then I picked up The Blade Itself. Like a fresh breeze. Not to mention I fell in love with the characters.
@@Mermer-16 oh my... Try the audiobooks for Mistborn. They're way better. The narrator Michael Kramer is top tier.
As someone who's not as avid of a reader as you I appreciate these literary breakdowns because I don't have to worry about spoilers, or adding another book to my already long wishlist.
I personally love purple prose, especially prose where we really get into the head of the character in third person limited. It makes me happy.
:D
The prose that struck me the most was Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5. All of his sentences are sharp, direct, and staccato. It's almost entirely simple sentences, ands, buts, or becauses are hard to find. It made the whole story vivid, clear, and jarring. It's probably my favorite book to read on prose alone.
So it goes.
15:26
I started watching this video precisely to get an understanding of how that specific kind of prose is. and you just said "Do you need an example for that?" And just skipped over it...
I look forward to the day when your favourite author writes a book that you have Been long expecting in PURPLE prose.
To say the truth, whenever am reading a book and the author starts with there flowery prose, my brain just shuts. I think thats why I love Sanderson, I like being on point.
Sanderson can't write complex prose, he's actually a very clumsy writer, so he resorts to writing "on point".
@@JOSEPH-vs2gc stick you what you're good at, as they say
@@JOSEPH-vs2gc and I think that is a good technique. I once saw the Sleeping Beauty ballet which was a lot of fun, but one scene stood out to me. There was a scene where she was meeting suitors and she was standing on point on one foot the whole time. One would take her hand and slowly spin her, let go, she would raise her hands above her head and then lower them to take the hand of the next all while holding the same position with her legs. What she did was incredibly impressive, but she was not strong enough to maintain it the entire time and she was shaking and wasn't as steady by the end, was only breifly raising her hands before immediately grabbing the next man's hand. It wasn't a good performance. Doing things like that while practicing is great! Push your abilities, just not on stage. The work you display should be what you have mastered, not what you are still learning or a week point. If an artist is good at creating landscapes they shouldn't try to put a portrait in the gallery until they have studied and become good at that also, and it's okay for them to never want to become good at creating portraits, there are already artists that do that.
You don't have to like Sanderson's work, plain prose isn't for everybody, but clearly a lot of people prefer it, so there is no point in critisizing him because he never got good at a different kind of prose. He doesn't have to, there are other author's that do know how to write like that, and some of them probably don't know how to write in plain prose. Which may sound weird since Sanderson writes at an 8th grade reading level, but it might be hard for someone to write plainly enough for an 8th grader to read it. I took a technical writing class and that was all about simplifying how you were writing, which was surprisingly difficult. Beautiful prose is not better than plain and plain is not better than beautiful.
* Cormac McCarthy is the god of balancing the most beautiful prose-poetry with the most intense and realistic horror/gore... have yet to encounter another author who even gets a little close to him in terms of this.
I like these examples, particularly the purple prose which felt very emotional.
Pratchett is my go to for excellent prose, with lines like: “Something screamed. It was harsh, guttural, it was malice and hunger given a voice.” -Going Postal
I like when authors sprinkle in that little bit of extra oomph at just the right moment, rather than having the whole text be flowery writing, or too emotionally heavy with excessive use of figurative language.
Another Pratchett gem from the same book: “It’s a plan that will work, Moist thought. It’s simple and deadly, like a razor.”
A wonderful description that is itself simple yet effective. Bonus points for occurring while the protagonist is shaving!
I appreciate you so much for saying that there is nothing wrong with purple prose, or with liking purple prose, even though you're not purple prose kinda person yourself; Thank you!. 💜
Immediate note: it's not snobbery to want the authors to give you craftsmanship. Just like you wouldn't want a bricklayer to build you a shitty house ... it's all about the care and attention to how it's made.
To me, the snobbery comes in when people describe just-okay prose as worse than it really is. When I see people complain that Brandon Sanderson or JK Rowling write TERRIBLE prose I roll my eyes. It's like they're trying to one up with you with how much higher their standards are than yours or trying to make you feel lesser for liking something that has supposedly bad prose. I think if you're talking to people about how high your standards are for prose, you should express that so you don't come off as telling people "I'm too good for the crap you like!"
@Eric. That very perception can be viewed as snobbery.
I think the problem can become when craftsmanship is seen as equalling beautiful. I’m not saying you or Merphy is doing that, but it happens a lot. My fiction is often very plain, but my characters are very much everyday folks who don’t talk or think that way. It’s very intentional, but I doubt many people would call it pretty. I doubt more people would hold it up as good craft, but writing in deep POV means being very clear and intentional about how the character talks, not how I as the author does. That’s notwithstanding me sitting here trying to think of a good synonym for nice, but it needs to be one syllable because of the cadence of the sentence. That’s boring, and probably no one will care, but that’s all craft too.
'Tis true that craft comes on many scales. There's nothing wrong with plain prose if it fits the story and characters. Unfortunately there's the backlash against Hemingway and how so many waves of authors have been obsessed with trying to be as minimalist as he is. As a result, plain prose gets generalized, and writers who don't even know who Hemingway is get lynched by the post-post-modern mob.
The way I see it, craft is performed with tools. Prose flourishes are a tool in the toolbox, and you won't be using it for every job.
But prose can be good and expertly done without being flowery or beautiful. There is a difference between plain prose and bad prose. When done right, plain prose make the words invisible, so people can get completely immersed in a story. It is very intentional if the author knows what they're doing.
More poetic prose takes me out of a story, while someone like Sanderson can write in a way where I forget I'm reading-I get completely immersed in the story, my imagination on overdrive.
Same. I admire the art of beautiful and purple prose, but standard/boring/straight forward prose prevents the story from dragging to me. And as you mentioned, my imagination can handle the rest
That's because Sanderson writes in an 8th grade reading level. If anything he could use more prose. ...Or not, because he isn't capable of doing it.
@@teehee-yn3jh the thing is that people often confuse "poetic prose and beutiful" prose with "purple prose" and they are not the same, purple prose is overdone, pretentious and distracting it isn't even really poetic as in many cases it's just cringy, true beautiful poetic prose has rythm, musicality or can create beautiful literary images that inmerse you in the story by being evocative and emotional not distracting, purple prose is just bad writing
@@camiloordonez4906 I agree for sure, but sometimes beautiful prose is too distracting for me. Idk, maybe it's because I'm a very straight forward person in general, and pretty/musical prose(not purple prose) is just unnecessary at times for me. Like Name of the Wind has beautiful writing and a lyrical prose, but I'm not always in the mood to be reading something like that. It's less of what's 'better' to me and more of just a personal preference
@@JOSEPH-vs2gc He is however capable of writing great stories. What do you have to show?
I just finished The Lies of Locke Lamora. Loved it. The closer I got to the end, the harder it became to put the book down.
Immediately started Red Seas Under Red Skies and just after the first 15 pages I am already really excited for what’s to come.
Thanks for always talking about this series so passionately Merphy. The main reason I picked it up. XD
Wizards 1st rule, and yes I’ve heard it all about how it was stolen from Jordan, even though I don’t see it, is a great book with terrible clunky prose. With Goodkinds second book, thankfully, he correct it, and wrote an excellent book. Nicholas Sparks writes simple five word sentences (I know this because my wife complained). This is a different kind of clunky, and in seeing the same, repetitive structure, it throws you out of the story. And while you call Sanderson’s prose simple, his prose still flows. To me it’s still beautiful, and it gets to the point. It’s a flowing prose I like, simple or purple, and I try to emulate it in my writing. Robert Jorden is on the verge of Purple, and I say this only because he loves to explain too much during action scenes, when I want him to just get to the point! Good video, and lots of food for thought for my 4th book. Can’t stop learning, and maybe one day I’ll see my book in your hands. My 4th book.
I don’t write very often, but when I do, I desperately try to write beautiful prose. It’s by far the most impactful to me
when youre in love, the 'ilove you i love you i love you' example hits extra hard
Camus has beautiful prose and is amazing with hooks. I'm sucked into the story by the first page + chapter every time! Its so good
"Pick up a book it's probably prose" 😆😆 awesome stuff as always merphy
Hey Merphy, just wanted to say that it was very useful, at least for one aspiring writer. Good job breaking it down in such detail. Apparently, I do fall somewhere in the middle. I guess you write what you like to read. Not too much purple prose, but at the same time keeping the language interesting and fresh. I could simply describe the story, but it feels like my artpiece and not just a medium of narration. I believe authors should have a deeper relationship with words themselves. Sure it's twice the work, but also twice the quality and artistic value. Have a pleasant weekend. :)
I completely agree! So nice to see more authors paying attention to the small detail and becoming a wordsmith. ☺❤
Your feedback is great. I’ve been pushed in writing groups to dump the metaphorical in favor of realism regarding what is possible. In other words, sunlight can’t be felt or heard as sound from the longing of a thousand worlds lived and yet unlived as of yet. Going back to the novel to input my true voice, more prose.
This is very interesting to me, I’m doing some creative writing for a personal project and was just wondering about this. Thanks for predicting what I needed!
Omg was this a direct response to my request??? Thank you so much for this!!
I never knew 'Dune' was so "pretty" - philosophical and melodramatic, but it's borderline grapy.🍇
My personal opinion on purple prose is that it can be super effective when used sparingly. Like that paragraph on love example: if that jumped in for a climax after a well paced character's journey on learning how to love or finding their soulmate or something, it would be super impactful. But if it's all purple prose it can feel melodramatic. I love when there's a balance, which is what I try to achieve in my writing. I love to use more description when it's natural for a character to muse over something, and not when I want action, because purple prose can take the momentum out of a scene too!
Extremely helpful foundation, thank you.
Here are 5 PROSE definitions I didn't know 21 minutes ago:
PURPLE: Hyporbolic & metaphorical descriptions of underlying emotions within scenes / characters.
BEAUTIFUL: Metaphorical & vivid descriptions of emotion in a scence or character(s).
DRY: Straightforward, objective, & matter-of-fact descriptions of characters, settings, scenes, etc.
BORING: Straightforward & matter-of-fact to the point of feeling stilted or lifeless like a school textbook.
BAD: Poor {syntax} grammar, sentence structure, repetative / redundant wording (or structure, as in long unbroken blocks of text?), contradictory wording, or anything else that comes across as "over done" or "over exagerated" to the reader.
I love Jim Butcher's prose in "Codex Alera". It's beautiful without being flowery or taking away from the pacing.
I differentiate between style and voice. For me, voice is the way a particular writer sees the world and style is the framework (syntax) that presents it. In this example for instance:
“Same ol’, same ol’.” Simone twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a stand trapped in the corner. A thin medusa, made of synthetic bamboo, wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a half-decent smile from somewhere. “How’s your day been?”
'suffocating skin', 'throttled the collar', 'trapped in the corner' and 'A thin medusa, made of synthetic bamboo, wearing her coat' is voice. It's unlikely that any other writer would have described it that way. The style is how it's presented.
Thanks for enlightening us non-native speakers!
The mists UNDULATED?
Bucky!
@@Nasser851000 the headless chicken?
The descriptions of the silences in Patrick Rothfuss books are so, so brilliant. That would be material for just one video!
I really like your channel and this video. I found it very useful. I never paid attention to my literature classes in highschool. I maybe read 3 books during that time. A year after I finished highschool I started reading for fun, and I made it to 30 books both in my own language and English. So I'm still learning about these topics. Thank you for these types of videos.
The Emperor’s Soul is my favorite Sanderson work, in no small part because his prose is on another level here, and the short story itself is tight yet evocative.
I never understood when you would say you liked/disliked the prose. This makes it so much clearer. Thank you!
The best prose I've ever read was in the 'Shatter Me' series by Tahereh Mafi. She gave each POV character entirely different prose.
One character is very dreamy so the prose is very flowery and lyrical, one is very strict and methodical so the sentences are short and precise, and one is a very funny 'bro' and his way of thinking is very humorous so his prose are very lighthearted and funny, etc. etc...
Yeah, as a younger person who studied writing the first few pages of any story were dissected more than read. Then, slightly more mature, novels were critiqued by the grammar police - also not a great plan for enjoyment. Finally, I got back to where I began, which is to say if I liked it, it worked and I don't care how or why.
Repetition and word choice is something my brain keys in on. Like in a recent book the author used 'alpine' and 'cubicle' which seemed out of place. There was also a stretch where every second generic guard was described as 'huge' as well as one of the characters described as 'huge'. I might ot have minded so much but this was all in about 30 pages.
i actually prefer when very simple prose where the metaphors are more subtle. I don’t like “beautiful” prose most of the time because it is too on your face. It is important to add feeling to the descriptions, but I prefer it if its added in a way that is not blatantly obvious and cliched.
For example: She is sitting down when he says “I’m sorry,” and her head snaps up, her eyes wide. He watches her intently and tries to study her expression. She is dressed in a brown cardigan and still has the short haircut she had the last time he saw her. The blue of her eyes shines in the midst of that much brown. The room is full of boxes. Everything is in boxes. So he repeats “I’m sorry, Rory.”
This was informative & helpful for both readers & writers! It's very easy to say "I think this has bad prose" without explaining what you mean by bad prose, because everyone's definition is personal!
Wonderful video, Merphy! This was comprehensive with great examples. You mentioned your friends who don’t care or notice or nitpick prose, but I can’t help but wonder if prose affects us readers on an unconscious level more than we realize. If the author rewrote Beneath the Dragoneye Moons with better prose, I wonder if the story would’ve had even greater impact. Maybe your friends would’ve loved it even more. Just a thought!
Wonderful video! Writer here. You'd be surprised how little explanations like this actually show up in writing books.
Thanks for the insight. Your description of prose makes perfect sense, and you describe it in a way that is easy to understand. Thanks for sharing!
I had never heard the term “purple prose” but apparently that’s my thing. I read exclusively purple prose for so long that everything else sounds terrible to me! I have such a hard time with book recommendations and now I know exactly why.
Would love to see this talked about more. Specifically, there is a wealth of great fantasy (pre-tolkien) that is criminally overlooked in book tube. Seems most are fixated on newer releases at the expense of great fiction. If it's too old or too "purple" there's an inclination to label one a snob. This is the real snobbery, with not much to back it up, at that.
I agree except for the "real" part. There's no mysterious secret snobs that make everyone else not snobs. Every camp has normal people, and then the ones that try to ruin anyone else liking a thing they don't.
Personally, I abhor purple prose, and I have a hard time getting through beautiful prose. I don’t discriminate against anyone who does, though. I just don’t care and get slightly annoyed when you go through five sentences just to tell me you walked over some bodies. But I also recognize that it can sometimes break of the monotony of straightforward prose, which is why I try to include it in my writing.
For someone that just got into writing, and has no college education, this helped a lot in defining what what prose is. It also encourages me to continue writing
This kind of content is so satisfying for the brain. Love it.
Also I think that communicative language is under noticed, so I really love your emphasis on the communication aspect of these terms.
My fav is Peter Beagle. "The unicorn lived in a lilac wood, and she lived all alone. She was very old, though she did not know it, and she was no longer the careless color of sea foam, but rather the color of snow falling on a moonlit night. But her eyes were still clear and unwearied, and she still moved like a shadow on the sea."
I'm one of those who asked for a video on prose, so I want to let you know how much I enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts. Thanks!
Some of my favorite prose is in Good Omens. Or the Amulet of Samarkand. Few things are more funny or snarky that pure British wit.
Yes. I couldn't help staring at "The Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy" on the shelf in the background of this video, and thinking of how great the Brits are at writing funny, witty prose (Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, Lewis Carroll, P.G. Wodehouse, etc.)
@@Steve_Stowers I'm actually looking into searching for authors with similar styles to Terry Pratchet, Niel Gaimen, Jonathan Stroud etc Would you say those listed authors are a good recommendation?
@@QuillASMR If you like Gaiman and Pratchett and haven't tried Douglas Adams, you should. (Gaiman has even written a book about Adams.)
Lewis Carroll is the author of Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking Glass, and I think many people who haven't read them don't realize how comedic they are. They're very well written, in a way that I think influenced much British humor that came afterward, and they're very funny if you have the right kind of sense of humor.
P. G. Wodehouse (best known for his Jeeves and Wooster stories) didn't write fantasy (except in the very loose sense of his stories NOT being grittily realistic), but he did write in a very clever, witty style that's one of the reasons his fans love his writing so much.
If you like Jonathan Stroud, you might try "The Gates" by John Connolly.
@@Steve_Stowers Thank you for the detailed recommendations! I'll give them a go 😁
@@QuillASMRYou should try Peter Pan.
Uuuu, finaly someone addresses this subject directly. It is not all that difficult to figure out the different terms but still, better to know than to guess. Thanks, Merphy!
I’ve been waiting for a video about prose for so long! Definitely one of the things I struggle with most in my writing.
Thank you for the differentiation between beautiful prose and purple prose! Very helpful!
These are my favorite kind of videos that you make! Thank you!
Thank you for the video. I have never heard about "purple prose" and also never really understood what "good prose" entailed, so I really enjoyed watching this.
I have to study The Bloody Chamber for my A level, and it is THE WORST purple prose I have ever read! Critics call it 'whimsical' and 'lush' but its ludicrous. Hardly a sentence in the whole book makes sense! I hate it.
Daphne du Maurier's prose is glorious. She gets so deep into the character's psychology so easily.
I NEEDED THIS VID. Finally I can understand what English native speakers are saying 😂 thanks
ONE THING ABOUT SANDERSON: I feel his magical details and characters' dialogue make up for the lack of beautiful prose. I don't want to spoil anything but Kaladins more emotional scenes (if you know you know) and Vins internal conflict said out loud in mistborn BROKE MY EMOTIONS, I SOBBED. HIS DEEPLY CENTERED CHARACTERS AND MAGIC SYSTEMS COMPLETELY MAKE UP FOR THE DIRECT PROSE, IN MY OPINION
agreed! also warbreaker made me tear up at the end
Girl you have been cranking out videos lately! 🙏
Fitzpatrick writing prose is my favorite, the way he describes scenes , it brings the reader to the scene. I also love the part of "for what it's worth.." ...I enjoyed the prose of Harper lee, reading is like breathing, can be without it. Nice video Murphy📚
For me, the strongest prose is precise, concise, and moderately poetic. It doesn't describe anything that it doesn't need to, and it describes things in ways that characterize the narrator, characters, and/or world on a nonliteral level. It provides only the amount of literal details necessary, and while it is very clear about those details, it concentrates on the depth behind the literal.
My favorite prose is Patrick Rothfuss name of the wind. That book is like a poem
What I learned from this video is that the analysis of writing is subjective. Do what you like and feel is best for your story or style.
This was helpful to me. Whenever I write, there's a lack of prose. It's typically two poorly described characters chatting or fighting. I can probably write decent prose if I ever wrote prose at all 😅
i personally like more poetic prose, the kind that often gets described as "lyrical". i like when the author pays attention to the weight of words and the flow of sentences, and even considers the structure and composition of paragraphs so the sentiments being delivered hit with the maximum punch. but i'm a very abstract person who can't help but exist in simile and metaphor, and for me, the art and craft of writing has the express purpose of making the abstract concrete, and that's not always simply done. there are times in books, yes, when the story just needs to move along, when plot points need to progress, or a scene needs to transition. but if that's the bulk of it, those are the kinds of books that you read and sure, you enjoy them, but you don't really remember them.
for me, purple prose has to be excessively florid to deserve the title (your example were pretty spot-on, especially since they were dialogue, and who talks like that!). but ultimately the style of prose is the vehicle of getting the author's thoughts into our heads, and it's an incredibly subjective, aesthetic choice; it's like not being able to watch a show because you can't stand the animation style, or listen to a song purely because the singer's voice has a quirk that bothers you. i'm rambling, though, so i'll quit while i'm not too far behind :)
Randomly clicked on this video to see some discussion on prose. Subscribed so fast when you're the first youtuber I've seen to name-drop my favorite author. Joe Abercrombie.
I see that people have different opinions, which is great. Though, for me, I love beautiful prose. There's something about it. It's like Heavenly, kind of God given.
As someone who is completely prose-blind, I found this video incredibly helpful. I still can't say I understand why people prefer certain kinds of prose over others, but at least now I have a better idea of what they're talking about when they comment on it, heh heh
I find that so interesting. Do u read a lot?
@@choco1199 I used to read a lot more than I do now. I think I got a little burned out looking for books whose stories I'll enjoy. That and I've been trying to write my own stories
I'm not really a book reader but I found this video pretty interesting because I never really cared to recognize differences in authors' prose. Great insight!
Terry Pratchett's prose is why his a favorite of mine his like an old friend sharing a drink with you and telling a story.
I think a good way to take the negative connotations out of some of these is to label them differently. Example: I usually refer to "boring proses" as "invisible proses" and "dry proses" as "technical prose." Not sure how I would change "purple proses" though. Seams fine as is imo.
Having read around 400 books, the most beautiful prose for me is found in Thomas Wolfe’s “Look Homeward, Angel” and the sequel “Of Time and the River.” I adore his writing and can't do it justice by describing it in my own words, so here’s just a snippet:
“A destiny that leads the English to the Dutch is strange enough; but one that leads from Epsom into Pennsylvania, and thence into the hills that shut in Altamont over the proud coral cry of the cock, and the soft stone smile of an angel, is touched by that dark miracle of chance which makes new magic in a dusty world.
Each of us is all the sums he has not counted: subtract us into nakedness and night again, and you shall see begin in Crete four thousand years ago the love that ended yesterday in Texas.
The seed of our destruction will blossom in the desert, the alexin of our cure grows by a mountain rock, and our lives are haunted by a Georgia slattern, because a London cutpurse went unhung. Each moment is the fruit of forty thousand years. The minute-winning days, like flies, buzz home to death, and every moment is a window on all time.”
Well done video on prose, and there's definitely a time for most of them.
Malazan Book of the Fallen, well there's a doozey you're biting off! I think I made it to Reaper's Gale, the 7th book in the series, before I got distracted with another series, or tired of the Malazan series, or both, can't really remembers what made me drop the series.
Of all things I love in the books is the way Erikson is able to make you sympathize, understand, love and hate god tier characters and do it on an epic level. Also his ability to elevate normal characters into god tier levels just floored me. They are a tough series to get through, but with big payoff throughout. I thoroughly enjoyed them, so not sure why I dropped them. I'll definitely be picking them up again in the future.
I think that you will really like Kingdom. It's a war story manga. It's just like every war that have existed, but like no war story that have ever been told
Beautiful Prose: Oh, I write that way without knowing I do. Sweet.
Purple Prose: CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALM DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN! I'm running out of oxygen here, seriously.
Simple Prose: The man knows how to get to the point, which is fine. I need something LITTLE sharper, but I think with my emotions, especially as a writer.
Dry Prose: Can you give me an example of what distinguishes this from simple prose, please?
Bad Prose: And this is why people like me (writing tutors) exist. Gods know I'm not omnipotent, but, like, "yelled with rage", for example, that could be shouted, boomed, spat, shrieked, so on, depending on the impression you're trying to give. Stronger adjectives are good things. And the exclamation points thing is cute, sure, but at the same time, like...not all the time. My niece is seven, and she doesn't talk like that. I think purple prose annoys me the most of these.
I think you actually just articulated for me why I just can never be swept up wholly by Sanderson's books. I never quite thought of his style as more direct, maybe because of the themes and topics often being evocative, but... yes, I do know that I tend to enjoy a little bit of roundabout or layered words more often. I have a harder time with Stormlight for it, even if I like the concepts.
You mentioned Erikson and that's actually what made me enthused about his books before anything else, and I agree about Abercrombie as well. It's always such a wonder how not only can the balance of prose with the material affect so, but also the reader's preference in the mix.
I'm always curious about Pros because you do say it a lot and it makes me question my own Pros when writing. So this video is helpful for me. Thank you!
I have never really cared about prose, that is until i started reading Aristotle and Dante discover the secrets of the universe. It's written so beautifully, simply, with so much meaning in each sentence. I was left in awww! So i came here to learn more about prose
Terry Pratchett has my favourite prose.
Overall though, I tend to like flowery prose. Which is the reason why I've put off reading Brandon Sanderson.
I'd never heard of purple prose before. That's an interesting way to say that xD
i would recomend trying out stormlight. his prose is much better there and sanderson is an awesome writer and its a shame to not read his books just because of his prose
Very late, but the term "Purple prose" is derived from the idea that what merphy called beautiful prose is blue, while the more effective writing of Sanderson is called Red. The idea is that purple is what happens when a red-style writer tries to write in a blue style.
Such an insightful video, thanks Merph! I've been thinking a lot about prose lately (I'm writing my own book), so this was perfect. I'm not a very writing-oriented reader, so the bottom line for me is: If it takes me out of the story itself, it's doing something wrong. I tend to go for more "boring" prose, because at the end of the day I just want to know what's happening and let the story play out in my mind. I have nothing against beautiful prose, but I have noticed it's more likely to take me out of the actual story, and that's where my problem with it lies
17:04 - I think this is actually not as contradictory as it seems.... to be unfazed is basically to not be rattled, or to not be caught off guard or confused or surprised, or such. You actually can feel angered, without actually losing your /control/composure or without having been caught totally unawares or disturbed in an unsettling and/or [outwardly ]composure-breaking kinda way. You can be angered, but have been completely unshocked by it or absolutely have seen it coming, or whilst totally keeping your outward cool about it. (If that makes sense? Like, maybe you feel the emotion[ internally], but your face doesn't even twitch because you have a stone-cold poker face and your pulse doesn't even jump or pick up speed at all or anything like that...it just kind of simmers, unseen, under the surface / in the background/ instead.) Or maybe you do feel angered, but you also don't feel personally hurt or insulted or anything; so, you're not angered in a red-hot 'I want to go after you[ and/or get justice] for this' kinda way, you're angered more in an ice-cold 'I am writing you off and no longer even care what happens to you or if you ever come back here again' kind of way. Like, you are provoked into washing your hands of it and walking away, or you were provoked into not even trying anymore to stop them or get through to them[ or anything] ever again; rather than being provoked into lashing out or into a fuming, muttering fury. Y'know?
But... maybe that's just me.🤔 🤷♀️🤷♀️😅😁 idekk- Loll
Or, actually, perhaps he[ who was leaving] is the one who is unaffected or undeterred[ by whatever she said or did before] but also angered[ perhaps inspite of her best attempts to dissuade him]. It's actually totally, grammatically ambiguous if she is the one 'unfazed, but angered' while watching him leave-or if she is watching while he is the one who is leaving in an 'unfazed, but angered' kind of way. Especially without further context. ^-^
This made me understand prose more. I saw videos about prose but its too technical for me. Looks like I prefer Sanderson's prose for the books I read this year. Simple and direct and in the moment.
I absolutely love what most people would call "dry," or "average." I'm reading it to get the job done, to find out what happens next, not to read borderline poetry. I totally get why people might like more "beautiful" prose, but it just doesn't appeal to me. In fact, it frustrates me q.q
Yeah, if I want to read beautiful prose I’ll pick up poetry
@@anneslezak2278 Exactllyyyy ;-;
I don’t like reading books filled with beautiful prose because it gets confusing as to what’s actually going on, but I like stories with a beautiful prose every few pages. Keeps things interesting and evocative. But no, please not every, single line.
Thats why literature is dying, riddled with poor written Fantasy and escapist YA
@@月光-z6q This is so accurate. I love the occasional flourish, but when they go off on tangents and show off their vocabularies, I just get so bored. There is a fine line between the right amount of flourish and not enough, so for me personally it's a delicate balance.
Readers, Read the prose you like, though, you don't have to like straight-forward and simple and you don't have to like pretty and diverse (aka "beautiful" prose :D). Same goes for writers, write the prose you like :)))
I am a boring prose writer. I thought I needed all this gorgeous, flowery, poetic prose but I was vindicated when I read Sanderson. I have never liked reading overtly beautiful prose. If I have to analyze what’s being said for 4 paragraphs to understand that someone is looking at a mountain…it just takes me out of the moment.
I'm trying so hard to better understand what prose is and how I should use it in my work.
All I know is that it's ordinary writing (whatever that's supposed to mean) and important.
Like Chuck Palahniuk said in his blog: plot-driven or character-driven are always a questions of personal taste, however, VOICE-driven fiction is always the strongest among these three.
Guy Kay prose is amazing. I've only read under heaven, but anytime I read prose from any of his books, I wish I had a fraction of that man's talent.
Thank you, I've never truly understood what proses were. I need this video. Thank you
The Gormenghast Trilogy is a good example of some purple prose. such a challenge to get through it but its so lovely.
Over the moon for Bram. Head over heels to Crouch!🌕👠👠🐤
This was helpful! Thank you for making it. I've always been a casual reader but around the end of 2021 I started to dive deeper into the fantasy genre (from romance fantasy to more epic tales). Understanding pose helps me, in turn, understand what I like in a book's writings style. Case in point. I have found a sort of "sub genre" in fantasy pulling more on the elements of Eastern European folklore. I truly enjoy those books but even within that sphere some I like more than others. Looking back on it, I would say it is those authors who are more "dry pose" that appeal to me. They throw in a few lavish "purple pose" from time to time but that's about it.
Also, I find that sometimes books with these more lavish prose become lengthy to read. As I'm a more "cut to the chase" kind of reader, I tend to loose interest. But maybe there is a difference between flowery or lavish prose and just rambling lol.