I noticed that the video is tagged with "Magic: The Gathering" instead of "Yu-Gi-Oh!", and I think it would be more accurate if it was tagged with the game that the discussion is revolving around :)
You should make a video about That Grass Looks Greener and how it forced people to play 60 card decks so as to not auto lose against grass focused decks
@@Neg2YGO ah back when Yu-Gi-Oh was slow enough that grass was actually good, nowadays grass doesn't even win you the game as the opponent 60 card deck of pure engine can put up a more consistent board than you ever can with grass
@@hexi9595 There's like a million better deck that can use grass and you pick eldlich, seriously what is a whole field of eldlich trap gonna do when only 2 of them is relevant and not even that good compared to today's meta. You should remember that both ocg and tcg are currently in spright tear format and a pop and a banish isn't gonna stop you from being steam roll by them
And yet he'll never admit Yugioh is just garbage Like you're upset about mystic mine when you admit they emphasized monsters too much as it is. That's the only reason why it's good.
Loving this type of content to be honest; I just wish it'd be longer and discuss other stuff as well, maybe like a podcast type of thing, im sure lots of us dont mind and will enjoy it!
One thing that people forget about the recent events that it isn't the control decks that are abusing mystic mine. Its the combo heavy meta decks that run 3 mystic mine and and absolutely demolishing everything in their paths. It is no longer a case of negation board vs mine, but a case of negation board which then gets followed up by Mine. And people ARE running the outs to mystic mine, issue is that people are now actively running cards to protect and abuse Mine at all costs so most of these outs get negated or the opponent jist activates the 2nd mystic mine.
Yeah its the same argument for maxx c supporters going "it would put combo in check" no the big combo decks run 3 maxx c and then dominate still while occasionally losing a game to being maxx c'ed
@@Cassapphic Maxx "C" would've been completely fair if at EP it made you banish cards FD equal to the amount you drew. Yes, you could still use hand traps, but then you'd minus at EP when you have to banish, and would be the best way to get to the 1 out for said combo board (drnm, droplet, etc.) It can only work if they banished FD though, since it could benefit the user if they were sent to the GY or banished FU.
As someone looking in from the outside, I feel like Mine is the conclusion to a more fundamental problem in YGO regarding its card design, because a good chunk of trap cards, a third of its base type cards, are too slow to be reliable, and most modern monsters are basically spells nowadays, and to this day I'm not sure how to feel about modern handtraps, because they basically are live 95% of the time and function perhaps too well.
Most handtraps are practically useless because almost every competitive deck can play through them. That's why a lot of deck play boardbreakers like DRNM, Droplet, Super Poly or Mine.
@@MrJuan_Vzla I see where you're coming from and I agree for the most part, my point was more towards handtraps being that they can even _be_ played or used as a resource in the worst of cases most of time unlike a traditional trap, which will likely get murked and/or negated before it can do anything
Yep, Konami created the Mystic Mine monster themselves with the way they've crept the game into nothing but ridiculous combo monster effects and ten million negates.
People play trap cards. Rivalry of Warlords and Tearlaments Sulliek (just to name a couple) are extremely heavily played right now. Good traps are just so strong that they're worth playing even though they're "slow".
Kinda reminds me of Spirit Reaper, first card that couldn't be destroyed by battle. It was so overwhelming because it forced players to main deck removal. It could completely shut down a game on its very summon, often resulting in your opponent decking out.
I think the big brain based decision for Konami would be to keep Mine at 3 and put Harpies Feather Duster AND Heavy Storm to 3. Then people can have multiple outs to it, even when they're the ones who played.
One key overlooked fact that wasn't mentioned about the nature of field spells: Even if you're only running mystic mine, you can set the second copy over the first to turn it off and go for game, or if your deck naturally uses field spells, use any other field spell to turn it off.
@@TheGamingLegendsOfficial You can SET field spells in the field spell zone face down & their effects don't apply until you choose to activate them and flip that card face up. Therefore, what you can do is this: > Activate Mine > When Mine no longer needed, set a face down Mine in the FZ > Existing Mine will be sent to grave as result and you now have a face down Mine in the FZ which you can activate later on
Mystic Mine also won events during its release year of 2019. Players were using traptrick to search metaverse and basically quick effect activate mine. Metaverse was limited as a result of this, killing the interaction since traptrick needs to banish an extra copy to set the metaverse.
In addition, many Shaddoll Invoked decks in early 2020 mained 1 copy of paleozoic dinomischus to out mine. They use dinomischus bc it discards for effect rather than cost, meaning it can trigger shaddolls lol
Something that doesnt come up in this, although its more of an issue on a competitive level, is its impact on the time constraints in tournament. The amount of stall that it provides just extends duels so long that in some cases its just better to surrender to mine activating than actively waiting out the turns it would take to hopefully win, as wasting more time would lead to a rushed final game, or worse ending the match before a 3rd game could even be played. Time rules are already bad in competitive yugioh, and all mine does is make it all the more toxic.
If only Konami would print spell and trap removal! You'd think after 10000 cards, at least 1 would be a spell or trap that removes spells/traps but nope.
@@kapwns I know you're being funny, but in all seriousness thats already been adressed. People are running spell trap removal in cosmic and galaxy cyclones and even twin twisters, but the issue once again comes down to beat cop existing, meaning you have to draw the out twice to get even 1 turn in, not to mention the other possible floodgates the mine players are running as back up. And even if you do run multiple outs, those cards arent going to aid in actually playing your strategy, so if you run to many they'll just brick you out. Basicly in dealing with mine you have to make your deck less consistant to fight exactly one card that shuts down all but a handful of you deck, and forces you to draw->pass untill you draw 2 outs, and only then do you get to fight the guy whos also drawn 7 cards over the turns you've drawn and passed.
@@thunderhogTH Cards like Lightning Storm and Evenly match are meant to be answer for established boards but with all of the Extra Deck monsters with negates + hand traps Konami ended up printing Forbidden Droplet and Dark Ruler No More. A player going second with Mystic Mine generally can't even activate it because modern YGO has so many negates. It would just get destroyed on activation. I really don't understand the argument for making your deck less consistent just to play backrow hate. That's more a fault on Konami for constantly making the top decks special summon spam. You generally have to hit your own deck's consistency to even play some hand traps and side deck options to deal with some match up so I really don't get why having to play more than 1 form of backrow removal is suddenly an issue. No one is playing a card like Forbidden Droplet, Dark Ruler No More, Evenly Matched, Artifact Lancea, Droll & Lock Bird, Gozen Match, Skill Drain and so on to advance their combos. They play them to slow down the game state just enough to survive a turn which could mean the difference between losing or winning because the current game does not allow for multiple turns of hoping you draw the out. In this case the out can be Droplet/DRNM for outing an established board of omni negate monsters that will OTK you for going second or any for form backrow removal for a floodgate like Mystic Mine/Skill Drain that are meant to slow down the game so that player can start their combos. At this point if Mine does get banned, and it probably will and because it's unfair it would be for the tournament time rules, I'll be waiting for the player base to cry about Skill Drain, Majesty's Fiend and Vanity's Fiend or floodgate flavor of the month for not allowing players to combo off like they always want to all while Spright and Tearlament dominate the format.
As a YGO player, I would love to see a similar concept as this video, except talking about MTG. I'm not interested in playing it myself, but I do like to see the discussions of the metagame and such via the perspective of a YGO player.
Mystic Mine being such an overwhelmingly popular toxic trashbag is 100% a symptom of how the game has degenerated. Everything entirely revolves around ridiculously long combos, repeating field nukes, and negates, and all of them run almost exclusively on monster effects. As soon as you present one single card that remains on the field for more than an instant and needs a Spell or Trap to remove, the game totally shuts down.
Inversely, a lot of people abuse special summoning when they don't need to and it doesn't benefit them. Maybe that's not speaking to the meta but I just played someone that spent literally 15-20 minutes setting up their board turn 1 only to surrender when I cleared their field turn 2.
For reference, I can't remember their entire "combo" but I'm not exaggerating. At points it had halq, herald, etc etc but ended on nothing important. I play blackwing and ended on full armor master (which is a one card combo off simoon) and Raikiri.
You do not need to remove it at all. Play Sword of the Deep Seated and infinitely discard it during the End Phase. 1 copy in the side deck is enough. It does not even matter when you draw it. You literally cannot be decked out. And if your opponent is stupid enough to play burn, there are monster effects that are continous.
The two big warp and play around type cards I can think of is Gorz and Mekk Knights. To this day, people still attack directly in ascending order and avoid 2 cards in the same column on instinct because of those two.
For any magic players that are trying to wrap their head around Mystic Mine imagine playing Modern but every combo deck can have a one sided Blood Moon and Moat active at anytime to stop you from playing the game.
Except modern have 1 mana removal because they can put it. Yugioh complainers want consistency without sacrificing slot for ST removal. You cant eat your cake and still have it.
@@eavyeavy2864 to be fair the whole point is that the removal is in the extra deck. And is going to be tied to monster effects which Mine completely shuts off. Plus MTG doesn't have monsters that are unaffected or untargetable everywhere in their meta game. Imagine if in modern infect every creature had hexproof inherently or could once per turn counter any spell. Removal in those scenarios just kinda folds in value.
@@eavyeavy2864 people are siding S/T removal for Mine... It's just being backed up by Beat Cop, Judgment, etc. You aren't very informed about the meta game if you think it's that simple
... there are a tone of ways in modern to get around a card like Mystic mine, heck they have printed similar effects ... as they said we have effects that straight up say "creatures cant attack" But that said in magic creature effects ... while useful don't shut off your entire game plan like it can in yugioh. the card would be balanced by requiring a level of mana to cast, heck Magic has its own "you cant cast spells" mechanics but they usually require more than 1 card to play, and a large mana cost to boot. Chalice comes to mind here, and i was watching someone play vintage with a 6 drop and mycrosynth latice ? ... idk any way what im trying to say is this card would be dogsheet in magic.
@@icarosro nice, now draw it and have the opponent not have beatcop or a negate trap. You are playing in a tournament so your goal is to beat a variety of decks most of which wont have relevant backrow. The most you can dedicate to mine is 3 side deck slots which is hard to actually draw.
@@luminous3558 Stuff like MST or Cosmic Cyclone are also good at answering continuous spells and traps, in addition to Mystic Mine, and backrow. Remember that Continuous spells don't get their abilities if they are removed in response to their activation. The cards have more utility then just being answers to Mystic Mine. Also it's okay from a game design point of view for there to be cards in your deck that aren't good in every match up. If you've created a game where 100% of the cards in your deck need to be good in 100% of matchups then you have failed at creating a good game. That's just toxic design.
as a mtg and yugioh player i can say mine is the equivalent of humility that also shuts down planeswalker. it started as a dedicated stax deck but now people realized that when you deck is already competent you can play it and auto win against decks that lack an out and otherwise just play a good deck.
In effect yes, but YGO very much reads as an Omniscience format, where everything is free. The fact mine can leverage you from any point is absurd, and it baffles me how it was designed. I can "understand" design mistakes that involve the hivemind finding interactions with cards separated by years between printing, but stand alone mistakes like Mine are just... Baffling.
@@Folfire just tryin to give some better context to pure mtg players. with no resource system it is completely impossible to do good comparison between yugioh and any other tcg
Late to the party on this video, but videos like this and on your MTG and having a discussion about broken cards even though the other person doesn't know the other game well is great. As it gets a different view of the broken card, and really shows how much of an impact it can be. I do this with a few of my friends that might not play the same games as me anymore but still know TCGs.
I think the biggest reason why Mystic Mine has become so meta-warping is because people have also realized that it's not just good in control decks, but also in combo decks - from the latest nationals there were combo decks like Spright, Swordsoul, Drytron, and Rikka Sunavalon that all played Mystic Mine. This creates a paradox in side decking because you want to put in cards to handle the powerful monster negation that combo decks generate, but you also need backrow removal for Mystic Mine. Not many decks can handle board in that many cards, so understandably players are upset when they lose to one aspect of the deck or the other when they can't properly account for both.
Hmmmmm almost like they've recently unlimited multiple cards that can handle it. "B-b-but even if you draw it it gets negated" Also people still keep limiting their decks to 40.... Just make your deck like 45... Hell even 50 if you need to in order to get the cards needed to deal with something like this. B-b-but having 41 or more cards makes the deck inconsistent! " It really doesn't make that much difference. Especially in modern where decks are basically search engines.
@@HoloTWWOriginal so your proposal is to maindeck more cards, that are dead in multiple matchups to make sure you draw multiple outs in a specific matchup? So you decrease consistency in hope to increase consistency?
@@jonasimhof9888 you seriously still think, that in modern Yu-Gi-Oh with all the search effects and combos that search your deck, that adding 3-5 more cards is going to make your deck bad/useless? And no they're not just dead on "multiple matchups" how many meta decks (let's say the top 10 most popular being ayes right now) don't have some sort of field, continuous spell/trap cards that are regularly used? Or hell, I'm sure there are quick play spell cards that they would be nice to have against. Idk I rarely look at what "top decks" are. I'm generally just build decks around what I like to play. Although I have been trying out the sprites recently and heard those are one of the more favorite decks ATM. I have some decks that are 40 and some that are as many as 50. Do I always win? No. But it's not like I overwhelmingly lose either. You guys are so stuck in your little molds and set ways that just aren't required anymore. In 2004? Yeah it made sense. Even in 2013ish it made sense. Going much further past that though and the 40 card rules just starts becoming less and less needed.
@@HoloTWWOriginal Ofc the deck won't be useless. Hell I like playing 60 card Decks, espacially in decks with engine pieces that are useless when Drawn. But here is some math if you play a 40 card Deck and want to open in a way you beat mine (at least 2 removal spells) you'll have to run 13 copies of backrow removal. You could run 45 cards and 14 spells of removal. Keep in mind there is only a 50% chance you'll open 2 removal spells. The rest or the time you'll still end up in an "just draw the out scensario" in which a classic mine player will most likely win the Topdeck war since he plays maire options of protection/ways to replace mine than you play S/T removal. So let's say your deck plays 12 Starter cards. By going from 40 to 45 cards the Chance if opening one (assuming your deck is a one card combo) go from 85 to 80%. Does not seem like much but during a long event it could make a difference. If you need 2 cards out of 18 your chances go from 75% to 67%. Still might not seem like much but mathemathecially speaking that means in 12 duels you open your combo one less time. The more specific your engine requitents get. I need to open 1 of those 8 cards and 1 of those other 10 cards. The worse the chances get. Sure running 41 or 45 cards isn't horrible (looking at the people in the top 16 of YCS Rio most of them ran more than 40 cards). There is a reason people do it. But most S/T removal isn't worth it. In the current Formst you have to play cards to break boards. So you'll have to dedicate at least some space for those cards and while other board breakers exist they aren't as good as DRNM. So by increasing your Deck size you'll have to play more board breakers that subpar to the other boatd breakers you usually play. But let's play through a few scenarios. You need to play S/T removal. I think we agree siding 12 outs to Mine is an horrible idea. You'll probably loose game 1 against mine, still only have a 50% chance in game 2 and 3 to draw the out and your Sidedeck has basically just answers to mine. And while it is true that IF (Spright does not run any field spells) your oponent relies on field spells and happens to have a way to access them your S/T removal has some use. If you are going second have to break a board then well ...You might be able to out a sided floodgate or pop the tearelement fieldspell... but in most scenarios you would rather see Board breakers. And as I said. A few percent don't seem like much. But during a weekend with like 40 duels a few percent can have a significant impact on your placing. If going from 40 to 42 cards would guarantee a win in the mystic mine matchup everybody would do it. But if you run a deck and have to go from 40 to 50 cards. Just in case you happen to face mystic mine and reduce the chance of seeing your better cards in other matchups just isn't worth it.
"Ok guys, but with all due respect. How are you not prepared for mine at this point. It’s a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament."
@@kapwns The problem is it's just so hard to keep up with combo decks you need hand traps so giving up 1-2 spots for s/t removal is making the combo match ups worse
I mostly play MTG. It sounds like Mystic Mine has the role that Dredge had in Modern. Basically, a good round 1 deck that gets worse post sideboarding. Those sorts of decks can be over-tuned but they can also be fine in the meta. I understand that the Mine deck is running protection but I feel like Yugioh has enough outs that can be run in the sideboard but maybe it is too punishing to dedicate that many slots. I find the hatred for Mine being a one card easy floodgate ironic since Yugioh is known for turn 1 deck setting up negates. MTG has a couple cards that basically say remove all copies of a named card from your opponent's deck (like Prohibition). There are ones that say remove copies of a target card in the graveyard. Those might be decent options if they get printed although Yugioh lacks mana costs.
the problem with mine is that it's just one card not the whole architype so after dealing with it you still have to deal with the rest of the deck this is not a big problem for decks who only focus on mine but a lot of decks just use mine cause it happens to synergise with what they are doing anyway. for example spright is the best deck without mine so with mine if sideboard too many card to deal with mine you are not gonna have the cards to deal with spright while still playing your deck
Yes, but Mine decks also play cards like Solemn Judgment which can negate backrow removal. The reason Mine is hated far more than negate boards is because neither player really does anything for an extended period of time, but negate boards can be played through. Breaking a board in yugioh is fun, waiting to draw the out isn't.
@@mrdactyl2303 negate boards are not easy to play through, board breaking is fun sure but sometimes you just dont draw the out or have enough outs to them in which case you lose or stall somehow till you draw the outs you need. Another issue is that some combo decks can even out thier outs eg. hot red dragon archfiend vs DRNM.
Keep it up with this content! Also I feel like we're heading towards a Firewall situation, where in 2018 I think, Firewall Dragon became such a problem with ftks and extra link combos that people harassed and spammed konami with "BAN FIREWALL" on every. single. post. I hope Mine gets banned before we get to that
I actually think Mine at one could be okay. The mine minigame between combo and midrange decks trying to stick one to slow down the game for a few turns can actually be interesting. The decks cramming 3 and repeatedly replacing it is just awful.
true, also would be interesting to see how mine burn decks play without the 2 copies. they can play 1 of the field that mimics a field spell in gyby banishing it but since it banish you can only play 1 and doesn't work if you dont have a mine in gy already
welcome to the better card game ... i jest ... sort of ... actually i feking hate playing yugioh outside of the psp video games ... i watch people play it though.
Mine is also really unhealthy in the sense that even if you run outs in some cases it's better to instantly surrender if you don't have it in hand because of time constraints. The card has survived way too long at this point
I would say Mine was fine back in 2019 during Sky Striker, orcust, salad's hayday since your side deck and sometimes main deck had the outs most likely anyways. And if it didn't the sidedeck was still flexible enough that you could put them in for the next event. Problem is that now, combo decks have evolved too much that your side deck has to focus solely on those decks. Of course not every deck has that problem, but the decks that don't are rogue decks at best so even though you can fit the outs into them they still struggle to keep up with everything else. Easy work around for this in a way that doesn't shaft people like Jeff Leonard who made a name playing mine is for yugioh to adopt Vanguard's way of "this card isn't banned however you cannot play this card if you're playing *x*" that way it ensures that older people like jeff who may struggle to keep up with how fast this game progresses can still have fun. It also puts a lot of other degenerate crap in check and would fix yugioh's biggest problem of "this deck is broken because of this one card that's not broken on its own" *Edit* another fix is to bring it back to master rule 4. Letting these combo decks have free reign of zones of made decks way too strong.
The issue with Master Rule 4 was something that they actually realized extremely quickly: A deck couldn't properly function without its own link monster(s). This is why we saw so many link monsters made for old archetypes that were combo decks. It just wasn't a sustainable solution for them to keep going back and giving every single combo deck a link monster though, and they made the decision to allow them to be summoned to any zone again (outside of face-up pendulums). Plus, all the meta decks now were made after MR5 started, so it's not like they implemented MR5 last week and suddenly skyrocketed these decks to viability unintentionally.
duel links already has that vanguard type of rule that you are saying, because in that game the semi limit list is gigantic because you can only play 2 total of any cards on it which somewhat keeps decks on check by not letting them play tech cards that are really powerful in that format like enemy controller and treacherous trap hole or by putting two cards from the same archetype on the list simultaneously effectively making it so you can only use 1 of each or cutting one out entirely
@@DoctorOaks the older decks that they arent making archetype support for aren't exactly playable to begin with so the mr5 change didnt really help them all that much. And for the decks being made after the change it makes no difference, being able to play an extra deck full of degenerate crap without restriction has unbalanced the game.
@@mikaelamonsterland yeah i havent plaued duel links in a long time so i have zero clue how they run it there but restrictions like what Vanguard does helps keep the game healthy and i think regular yugioh would greatly benefit from it.
The fix is let the meta adapt to mine. This bullshit of ban/limit mine because "meta decks" don't have to room to deal with it nonsense is just that nonsense. If you can't figure out a way to adapt to the possibility of mine then you honestly don't deserve to win. Part of TCG is adapting and preparing for things like Mine and the last few tournaments meta decks are running less than 3 removal cards. Mine isn't the problem bad deck building is
Funnily enough, when I was fighting my friends a few weeks ago in a tag duel and one of my opponents unapologetically played Mystic Mine trying to be annoying. What ended up happening was me and my teammate locked his team down with a combination of mirror forces and my Ghostricks. They couldn't burn us either because I had Ghostrick Mansion out, and decking us out wasn't an option because both of us had a 60 deck. It got so bad he tried to find a way to destroy his own Mystic Mine, but once my teammate played his own Mystic Mine he ragequit. It was beautiful.
He forgot to mention that it’s searchable through several cards (including on your opponent’s turn) and Runick has an easily summoned monster that protects it if you don’t have Beat Cop
I'd like to rebut the last statement. There are two Runick fusions that protect. One protects Runick spells traps when singularly targeted. The other protects from non-targetring, multiple card wipes. To sum up, while Runick can protect, it ain't protecting much depending on the correct utility. Not only that, but if you are playing Runick, you're likely not gonna put out a Mystic Mine unless you're against the wall with dead draws or you are facing down an otk board. It's just a tactical safety net in that situation, and even if you get it out you can't win without the runick field spell.
@@blackgaia102 don't forget runic also banishes from your deck so if you are stuck under mine and you can't find the out they will just banish your whole deck and there is nothing you can do about it trust me it's all my friend plays and it is just the worst
@@mortag65 it's also all I play. Sure you can banish under Mine but that's if luck favors you. Both situations drawing until mill or drawing until out are both situational.
The closest Magic example that I can think of is the Teferi Time Raveler + Knowledge Pool combo. This combo makes it so your opponents can't play ANY card besides lands. And it doesn't affect you negatively.
I feel like the fact that Mine warps the meta so heavily is more an indictment of the state of Yugioh as a game, than it is an issue of Mine being inherently OP. The fact that so many decks are so creature centric that being asked to run other types of cards is a huge ask is an issue. Magic has some similar cards in things like Ward of Bones that are way more broad than Mine is, and aren't symmetrical, and it's not an issue. And the complaint that it's helping the decks that use it win tournaments strikes as a non-argument. Like yeah, every good piece of non-archetypal support is going to help the strategies it works in do better. That's literally the entire point of generic support. It'd be like complaining that Laboratory Maniac supports self-mill decks. I just don't know how a game can regularly produce decks like Dragon Link, that play 20+ cards turn 1, and then be like Mystic Mine is the problem. We can't just expect players to deal with the trade off of having to run some extra S/T removal. Maybe if decks didn't use like 30 cards in ridiculous wombo combo lines, they'd be able to fit in some more outs.
Yet mtg banned Mycosynth Lattice because combined with Karn the Great Creator it shuts down lands completely. Your comment would kinda read like "that's more an issue of mtg as a game for being so land focused and not of the combo being inherently OP, the fact that so many decks are so land focused that being asked to run other types of mana sources like the spirit guides is an issue", which is already ridiculous. And those are two combo pieces at 6 mana, unlike mine which is a single card and is almost always live on turn 1 in a mine deck. The thing is, mine is a very consistent card. As is protecting it with a beat counter. And having a backup mine in hand. A lot of players seem to have this weird thought that just splashing 3-4 s/t removals will just make mine no longer an issue, but what's that worth when your removal is much less consistent (as generic removal has no searchers or recycling, since it is generic)? Running a decent amount of s/t-removal, which a lot of decks actually do, won't do anything against mine, and that's the first issue. The second issue is that regardless of your deck style, the wincon will almost always be combat damage, and mine denies that completely. There are cards like Skill Drain, which also negate all monster effects on the field, yet they aren't problematic at all because you can still play around them. Mine doesn't give you that option, it's "draw multiple outs by turn 5 or lose".
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 That's a false equivalence. Mine doesn't prevent you from playing spells and traps. There's no way that you can even pretend that that is the same thing as turning off all permanents in magic (not just lands). Also, Karn isn't symmetrical, like Mine is. It's just a ludicrous comparison
@@kentsilvain7329 And Karn doesn't prevent you from playing instants and sorceries. The spirit guides even provide mana on a non permanent. "I feel like the fact that Karn + Mycosynth warps the meta so heavily is more an indictment of the state of mtg as a game, than it is an issue of the combo being inherently OP. The fact that so many decks are so permanent centric that being asked to run other types of cards and mana sources is a huge ask is an issue." Do you find that statement ludicrous? Then you know how your comment reads to a yugioh player. Also mine being symmetrical is obviously absurd, you play mine in your combo deck where you use it to put the game to a standstill, then eventually once you have your combo pieces ready you pop it with another field spell and go ham with your combo. In that case mine does not affect you at all so it's not even remotely symmetrical. Also let's not forget karn + lattice still lets you attack, and due to the high mana costs even tron decks only have it out by turn 4, unlike mine being a turn 1 card. And as for your "hurr durr just use your multiple unsearchable spell trap removal and hope you top deck multiples of them", here's my answer: Why don't mtg players just include 4 simic spirit guides and 4 1 mana artifact destroyers in their decks instead of banning mycosynth? You can totally deal with it that way, have mtg players forgot that simic spirit guide is a thing?
@@kentsilvain7329 and while ward of bones is a false equivalent due to its horrid mana costs and it not affecting the cards in play at all, imagine this: ward of bones at 1 mana instead of 6 and with blood moon, ensnaring bridge and humility on top. Every combo deck in the game would just start with a spirit guide + ward if they didn't draw their combo pieces, even potentially mulligan down to two just for these two, because with a ward and no other permanents on the field your opponent is unable to do pretty much anything except adding the spirit guide + 1 mana artifact removal to every single deck and hoping to draw both fast enough before the combo player draws their combo. Add it to a format like legacy where ftks are absolutely possible in combo decks and see how messy it would get. And then do an "hurr durr just draw spirit guide + removal, don't even bother with how stuffing your deck with tons of these cards makes it weaker against the actual combo" comment.
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 You mean the Spirit Guides that aren't legal in the format that Lattice was banned in? And hey, guess what, the Spirit Guides are played in the formats they're legal in, along with a bunch of the super cheap removal you're suggesting. Again, the fact that you have to try to equate monsters to permanents, rather than creatures belies that this argument is not being made in good faith. First of all monsters are in no way necessary to play spells or traps, unlike how mana sources are necessary for spells in magic, including instants and sorceries. The only way that you could even attempt to justify that parallel would be to argue that monsters are as integral to yugioh as the combined value of every single permanent type in magic, which would itself support my point that yugioh being solely dependent on 1 of the major card types isn't good for the game. Secondly, even if you wanted to draw that comparison, cards like Stasis, static orb and winter orb that work to try and shut down mana sources (and creatures as well). Hell, Karn and Lattice are both still legal in Legacy and Vintage. It's also worth noting that Mine has an out to itself included on the card, which none of these legal magic cards do.
In toss both orcust and salad ran omni-negates that they could search and guarantee an out to a mine focused strategy. T-dragons did not, but in a format where 3/4 of the best decks had outs it was hardly consistent. Also kind of understated was the hoops people are going through to attack directly with mine on field. Recently an altergeist list topped an event that would summon meluseek, attack directly, then shuffle it into deck with spoofing then add another copy of meluseek to hand. meaning at the end phase the altergeist player would always have 0 monsters on field. Also another notable absurdity of the card is that it checks at the end phase to destroy itself. so even if the opposing player manages to get equal monsters on board, they need to give the mine player a whole turn with likely 0 monsters on board. This also allows for weird plays to force mine to stay. A sky striker player can with 1 monster on board force the opponent to link off their whole board into 1 monster, then shark cannon another monster onto the field. yes the mine 'burden' is passed onto the sky striker player, but sky striker can out it whenever they want through multi-role or area zero. They can consolidate into a zeke, then hayate and still attack directly since you have 1 monster on board their monster effects can go through as well until they use their spells to clear ur guy. When they pass turn to you, you can use monster effects until you hit 2 monsters, which is pretty necessary to get to a lot of your extra deck outs. also fk metaverse and demise of the land, makes mine decks a thing, because you dont have to go 2nd to see value
Yeah it's weird how the TCG and OCG each have their own separate toxic cards. Konami will, much more often than you'd expect, recognize a card is a problem in one of the two formats and bans or limits it there, but then doesn't do the same in the other format. Sometimes they have preemptively banned old cards in the TCG in anticipation of the release of a new card that was already in the OCG which had made the old card broken, and there are some cards that are banned in both formats for being too obviously good, but it's really the parts of the venn diagram that don't overlap that really make you scratch your head.
@@drewbabe personally it's because of motive. Japan's ban choices always serve one of a few purposes: 1. Stop any and all FTKs and/or Tier 0 decks (also their tolerance is absurdly high for that kinda thing. One tournament where I am was split an even 50 50 between two variants of the same deck one time) by banning the non-profitable parts into oblivion. 2. When a booster box release and banlist month coincide (2x a year), ban the previous Tier 1/2 to make way for the new release. 3. When the "TCG exclusive catchup box" releases, ban any resulting combos that could result of slight tweaks between rulings. TL;DR: To me OCG banlists are always retroactive and TCG, having the perk of watching the OCG create the combos before they get carried over, is mostly proactive.
In magic the gathering, we have a popular main stay card called chalice of the void, a card that prevents both players from playing cards with mana value x, where you get to choose x. Imagine it’s a card that prevents you from hand trapping, or normal or special summoning any monster card with star value of x. There is also a famous two card combo that had to be banned that won you the game on turn 7 at the latest if your opponent did not have a negate ready. There is no continuous or field spell limit in magic. To over simplify the combo, It involves a card that turned all cards on your opponent’s battlefield and basically hand into a specific card type in addition to their original card type. Then you had another card that specifically that you can’t attack or activate any abilities with that card type, and allows you find the first card from your extra deck and put into your hand. This effectively makes it so that your opponent cannot play any cards from their hand nor attack you for the rest of the game allowing you to play solitaire and win the game. The aforementioned 2 card combo was put in both combo decks and control decks before being banned where the combo variant tries to get it out early as possible while the control variant slows the game down long enough where they can feel confident to play it without it being negated.
Is Mystic Mine a problem that Konami should address? Absolutely. But so is the exponential increase in powercreep yugioh is suffering in the past few years. We've come to the point where previous formats' tier 1 decks vanish from the current one without so much as a banlist. As soon as Spright and Tearlaments hit TCG, Despia and Swordsoul were gone from bigger tournaments' top cuts. And that's as big (if not bigger) a problem. Meta decks' lifespan is getting shorter and the game is getting too fast. And given how absurdly expensive some of these new decks can get, someone winning an YCS with a Mystic Mine Ojama that costs 1/10 of the price would be the people's champion. lol It's always curious to me how yugioh players complain a lot more about control cards/decks than combo, even when the latter presents pretty much the same issue.
the main advantage combo is twofold, it is fun to play a combo deck in a way it is much more involved and usually isn't winning by the one floodgate that beats your deck, and that hand traps provide interaction and adjusting your combo on the fly based on how your opponent interrupts you.
I honestly feel like the ishizu cards along with tear will just be a step too far they can never take back. just making the PUNK engine seems like it barely uses the GY at all. milling all of your deck in turn 1 just seems utterly insane to me.
@@Cassapphic I'd agree with you if meta decks hadn't become increasingly netdecky in the past few years. Even extremely strong meta decks that could do a little bit of everything like Sky or Salaman needed to think during matches because there were multiple routes. Going for something meant not going for something else. You couldn't do everything at once. You can see by how those decks had multiple variants over the years, everyone making their own version to counter other stuff. But now archetypes can absolutely do everything at once. Tri-Brigade was exceptionally annoying when Master Duel launched because it would shrug multiple handtraps and even if you negate everything, the trap would just recycle the entire combo while putting the boss monster in the field at the same time. Floowan has combo, tribute, control, removal, etc all baked into its main deck. Every single Swordsoul card has 3 effects, one more broken than the last. Adventure can be slapped into any deck and gives at least 2 baits. All without having to deviate from the standard combo because they all can shrug multiple interruptions. Despia has a really cheap burn to put on the field that if you don't remove quickly will end your game. Can't get more control than that. I can go on. And those were last format's meta. They're dead now. Spright And Tearlaments are better in almost every way. You only really see experimentation at the highest levels, where the best players try to improvise and surprise their opponent, because their decks would otherwise be functionally the same. Everywhere else, it's the same combo over and over again. Because of faster powercreep, these same combos born from youtube videos are all that's needed to win most of the time. Meta has always been meta and that's not the issue here, the problem is faster powercreep is increasing the gap between meta and everything else, so the skill gap is not as important as it once was and matches are getting the same even with combo decks.
i want to say that this channel has become one of my favorite TCG channels as of late, I'm not currently into TCGs but if I get back into MTG I will definitely try out Cardmarket over Card Kingdom to help support this kind of content ;P
i think most people has forgot the fact that Yu-Gi-Oh is based on monsters, spell and trap cards, playing mostly monsters and be prepare only to counter monster cards is a issue, players and konami as created it, mine in my opinion is a reminder that we have 3 main types of cards in the game.
Mystic mine still sucks if you play all the outs you can afford, because then it's still a game of "draw the out lol", or more realistically "draw 2-3 outs lol" because mine decks as discussed in the video are also on destruction protection, things like judgment etc.
Somebody found a workaround for the Mystic Mine self destruction by preventing activations after they resolved it with a different spell. It was kind of extra frustrating. Of course if they could pop it, then they couldn't activate another one to play it.
That has literally been yugioh for the past couple years tho you either draw the out and congrats you get to play yugioh or you don’t and get to be otkd by your opponent the turn after… it’s a bit bs… yugioh in general has gotten to the point you wonna be as uninteractive as possible
@@bryanhickernell7189 that's not really true tbf. Big combos that end on multiple negates are uninteractive and boring to play against, but at least it's not "draw this one card that rarely helps against other decks or surrender", since most interruptions are either once per turn or even just one time, so if you can start multiple plays in a turn or do good baits with cards that still provide value in the gy, you can still power through big boards. But with mine there's no playing around, no baiting, no powering through, absolutely 0 interactions, just "draw 6 maindeck s/t destroyers or lose"
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 how is it any different then draw your hand trap or loose or draw droplet or dark ruler or loose? Bc some end boards are like that. It’s uninteractive Omni negates should be banned in general because there should be inherent weaknesses in a negate because it’s inherently powerful. Omni negates are more so. And therefore should have bigger draw backs to the card.
I’ve been going back and forth with the guys in the Yugioh subreddit. Mine is broken but I don’t think it’s the whole problem with Mine. Mine is a card that should balance the game. It should not be a Royal Oppression type tool, but it does end up in that role. The biggest issue is that the game is moving so far away from any semblance of balance in favor of becoming this competitive solitaire game. I think this is a symptom that the state of the game is beyond what is healthy in terms of power creep and speed. Decks back in the day were constructed with more balance, but now, due to requiring a stack of hand traps to be able to deal with other matchups and just not lose, it’s bad game design at the helm of the issue, and Mine’s dominance is just a symptom of that issue.
I would like to see if these mystic mine decks are capable of beating old top decks like 2012 black wings. A point in the game where monster effects didn't dominate.
Ultimately, konami tries to have their cake and eat it too with floodgates. They were probably fine back in the day when the pace was slower. I actually think the game is pretty good these days when you play two meta decks against each other with no rivalry, dimensional barrier, mine, and other floodgates. But flipping a floodgate with the pace of the game today completely destroys the pace of the game and they are impossible to adequately side against because you have to be prepared for monster style boards. They either gotta ban all the big floodgates or ban like every archetype from the last 4 years. It's only one or the other imo.
Im srry but the decks in yugioh very never really balanced except maybe for edison format. You always had some bs thats either gonna kill u on the first turn or make an unheakty amount of advatnage from 2 power cards
The MTG equivalent of Mine is a 3 mana enchantment that says "The player that controls the most lands cannot declare an attack or cast spells from their hand." There are outs (Boseiju) and you can play around it (stop playing lands) but even that's difficult because you better hope your deck can function on 3 lands maximum. And now people are winning Pro Tours with decks that go Simian Spirit Guide twice into dropping it on one land, then using 1 mana spells to give it a shield counter and shroud while they poke you for 1 every turn. It's just an incredibly frustrating situation.
@@ghouse7154 No that's a literal translation but doesn't take into account the way Yu-Gi-Oh is designed. Magic decks still contain instants and sorceries, it's very atypical to have a deck that is all creatures. Yu-Gi-Oh decks are frequently all or nearly all monster effects, and the non monster effects are used to find monsters so their effects can be used.
I quite literally feel like that’s how yugioh in general is right now bc if this was a monster eff nobody would bat an eye the fact that it’s a spell card is what is fing with people
@@bryanhickernell7189 It it was a monster effect it will be outed by dark ruler, Monster removal, kaijus etc. Which are good or decent vs combo anyways.
So you combo off turn 1, make a big ass board. They manage to land a Mine, and you use a resource in your hand to destroy whatever remains in your board and pass the turn unprotected. EOT, Mine gets destroyed. Your opponent was on Drytron and kills you on the next turn.
That is an option. Though, a player who's really dedicated to running some sort of Mystic Mine strategy is going to have things like Solemn Judgment in their deck to prevent you from doing that, or they're going to play something like Sky Strikers, who basically only ever at most one monster on the field at a time, and which have a main monster called Raye who will special summon herself from the GY if one of their monsters is destroyed. So if they want, they can put up a monster for some level of defense, and to make the monster count after Dark Hole not be even, so Mystic Mine won't destroy itself at the end of the turn. You'd have to follow up by summoning just one monster, at which point you have two options: just pass turn then and there, and let MM destroy itself, but then you have a tiny board (compared to what you'd normally want to have, assuming a meta deck from before MM got so popular) and they have their entire turn to do whatever they want; or, attack over their one monster (if you even can-most decks can't summon a bunch of monsters without using monster effects, so you'd hit a wall pretty quick, and probably not be able to bring out something strong enough) and then now that you've attacked over their one monster, congrats, now you're floodgated again. Are you prepared to have this same interaction over and over throughout the duel without running out of resources? Most decks aren't, and can't, because they'd have to replace combo pieces with answers to MM strategies, meaning they can't consistently pursue their actual game plan (which the video talks about.)
For Magic players, Mystic Mine is like Ensnaring Bridge and Humility all wraped up in one card, and Mystic Mine Control decks are like Lantern Control decks.
Mystic Mine is great and it's great for the game. There is SO much Spell/Trap removal in the game. It's so easy to remove, people just want to be super greedy and get everything on a monster effect. The card is great, I hope Konami doesn't give in and keeps it at 3.
And you think that literal world level players are not aware of that? You are also aware that most players main deck 3x lightning storm? Did you seriously think just putting 3x mst will make your deck safe against mine?
One thing that they didn't mention is that Field Barrier protects Mystic Mine from itself, meaning that the ONLY way to get rid of it is by using a lot of S/T Removal (at least 2; one for Barrier, one for MIne).
I did not realize that was a thing, but I guess it's not the first time a card has been able to be protected from its own downsides and it surely won't be the last.
As a MTG and Yugi player I will say this. Magic has plenty of cards that prevent activated effects like Mystic Mine. There is a deck known as STAX that does the exact same thing. What the biggest issue is players only wanting one card type to do everything. Monsters. Best way to pop Mine for good is let them place spell barrier. Link or Synchro to one monster and play a card to bounce it. Then they can’t play another Mine. This you win the game.
There are actually multiple things wrong with this comment. 1. no, players don't want one card type for everything. However, players want consistency. A mine deck can have over 15 searchers for mine and loads of protection, however common s/t destruction on non monsters is almost never searchable, and playing 9 generic unsearchable non monster pieces of s/t removal in your deck just so you draw enough outs quick enough means your entire deck will be a lot weaker in literally any other matchup. 2. Your suggested out is very very bad. Mine rarely plays field barrier as beat cop is a much stronger protection. Going into a bouncing extra deck monster won't work if they have no monster out at all, and if they have, that monster might have a negation effect. There are much much stronger options like Unending Nightmare, which allows to pop multiple mines. So your suggestion is much weaker than the already established staple answer. Also 3. in mtg the card mycosynth lattice is banned for a similar thing: being able to, combined with karn the great creator, nullify all activated ability, including lands. As monsters are the resource bases in yugioh like lands are in mtg, it makes sense that a stax effect THAT strong is banned.
All the cards that have similar impact on the game as Mystic Mine are probably popular floodgates such as Skill Drain, Imperial Order (UGH glad its banned), Rivalry of the Warlords, Gozen Match, There can be only One, Protos (UGH glad its banned #2), and im sure there are more (older banned cards such as Vanitys Emptiness, Royal Oppression). Lets not forget turn skip Calamities is banned but its an activated monster effect! Along with S0 Utopia Zexal.
how i would tell him to imagine is, think of if this was a blue card, ya there is artifact hate but counter spells are gonna be coming out, now imagine there was like 3-4 tutors specifically for this card
Yugioh has had their power consolidated into monster effects though magic diversifies it more among card types, like null rod, Teferi Time Raveller or collecter ouphe can be back breaking in certain matchups but a card that gets that sort of value in all matchups while shutting off the ability to counter things seems insane from an MTG player perspective especially with good tutors like you said.
I had an oooold school gravity bind water deck. A Legendary Ocean, Gravity Bind, Tornado Wall, and Amphibious Bugroth MK.3, combined with just about every counter spell, trap and draw card the game offered at the time ( just after Elemental Hero's), was the bane of the whole neighborhood. Several decks were built to try to counter it, but no one really got out of The Bind. Then it became just too slow to play with all the new stuff they added so now my deck is collecting dust in my Box o' Memories.
Against the decks that could Blood Moon you before you had a turn I think Blood Moon was worse. This is closer to Ensnaring Bridge. It's just an insurmountable wall IF you aren't prepared for it but it can be removed if you respected the card. The fact that there are no colors or anything in Yugioh means that literally any deck can out Mine if they just jam a few copies of Cosmic Cyclone or w/e but no one wants to do that
@@0hboii13 (This is from a Modern perspective) Ensnaring Bridge is basically doing nothing at this point and Blood Moon is basically the only effective way to proactively fight greedy mana bases and we just got out of an era where even Blood Moon couldn't do that well anymore. Banning either card would be a mistake.
@@0hboii13 We are long past 2015, there are far more egregious design mistakes now, like Wrenn & Six, Teferi Time Raveler, Ragavan, and the pitch elementals.
Because lightening storm and evenly match to an extent do what Raigeki does but are much more flexible being able to clear monsters and spells/traps while raigeki is solely monsters and is a brick against backrow heavy decks.
@@chance6754 I get why. I just think it would be helpful to new players to see why a no cost no restrictions blow up your opponents board is at 3 and almost entirely un-played.
Oh yeah, I was trying to have fun playing a Sacred Beast deck, then I ran into my first Drytron player. My first experience with modern YuGiOh and it was so aids, I'm glad I don't play the game anymore. Everything after DM and GX is cancer and blasphemy.
Just wanna say, you're really smart for uploading videos like this to get your cardmarket out there! Keep it up!! I'm in the US, so I can't exactly use you, but I would if I could.
As a former yugioh player who quit because of how fast the games gotten, I kinda love mystic mine since it screws over the big degenerate combo decks. Its like what Yasharn does to Rakdos sac and its glorious
I'm not sure if it is one of those decks, but I once saw a mystic Mine player with a deck that would just proitect mystic mine at all costs MSTs and Cosmos got negated left and right With no other win conditions I have seen (maybe there were others but the duels didnt went that long) I'm not a meta expert or anything but it seems like a very unfun deck to play against even more so then the multi omni negate boards since I can at least attempt to play before I get negated
Yeah... I feel you, mystic mine decks are just hell to play against. The fact that if your deck doesn't have a maindeck out to mine it can't play, it's stupid. Mine is limiting what kind of decks get played without even countering combo since it's usually combo that plays the card. Mine is so stupid and needs to go
hello there mine enjoyer here and that sounds accurate sometimes people will surrender very early and the mine player won't get to show their win condition and protect the mine at all costs are the objective of pure mine decks. Here are some of tge win conditions I know. You have burn with cards like cauldron of the old man and wave motion cannon There is exodia because of course the meme lord can be played with mine There is deckout with the new runnick cards or something funny like sword of deepseated And finally final countdown
@@Metalseadraking That would lower the consistency since it would be harder to draw into Mine, or a card that searches it. So I don't think most people are doing that. Lists I see online are running 40 cards. They increase the chances that they can get into MM by running Terraforming, Metaverse, Demise of the Land, and generic draw power (Pots, particularly Duality and Extravagance.) And then their wincon is usually burn and Final Countdown as a plan B.
I really want to see you guys with more of a full group situation discuss the card Necrovalley. One of the most powerful floodgates of all of yugioh's history and one of the oldest as well. It creeps around every format and is also one of the best side deck choices for any deck. However its also one of, if not THE hardest cards to side deck in Yugioh.
I love these kinds of videos! Though I think the discussing a card like MM with someone outside the YGO sphere is kinda-pointless. He can't really do much but nod and agree as every problem aspect of mm is revealed
There are even decks that are playing mine as a way to just stall for a turn or two until they draw the combo pieces they are missing. This card enables so much degeneracy that it has no business staying legal for so long
As a magic player, it's definitely not a good meta if one card is so prevalent that you have to account for it when building your own deck. It's especially bad when it's very hard to beat (looking at you Oko and Uro 😑).
That would be true however the meta Is Rotten right now, decks are playing 1/3 same handtraps because they Indeed are prevalent and you Need to build deck around them
This was 12 minutes of a combo player failing to realize the game is inherently and mechanically broken at this point while the mtg player just says. Why not just run removal then? The combo player continues to complain why he can’t run removal that’s widely available trying to justify for his own bad deck building.
People thinking that Mystic Mine can be easily played around and that it isn't a problem kinda remind me to the time when people thought that the first Chaos monsters were gimmicky and wouldn't see success because you couldn't search them. Some things just never change.
I haven't always been playing Magic actively but there are 2 things that I remember during my time that were really annoying in standard for that rotation or never came back. 1. Miracle cards were kind of a cool idea but also a really weird focus on topdecking. I don't think a comparable mechanic was printed on the same scale since then. 2. Khans or Tarkir was one of the grindiest metas I've ever seen, to a large degree due to Siege Rhino, and that meta was one of the reasons why I stopped playing magic after enduring it for a bit. There was a lot of Abzan Midrange around and it was just a lot of "drain for 3, stalemate on the board".
Reminds me of Secret Base (SB Nation) discussion videos but for a different hobby of mine, the format doesn't feel totally the same as this feels a little more unscripted, whether or not it is scripted. I think you did a great job explaining why the card is more busted than it seems at first, really good video.
Just do a side by side comparison with IO, which is also horribly with oppressive and hated when it is strong, but is an unsearchable one-of on a trap card. Cards this strong are usually very temporary
@@kuyagoldlink7563 IO got banned because it is an instawin vs spell decks and solidifies going first boards. If you go 2nd and they flip IO and you play SS or play into multiple negates, you just instantly loses. Very bad card design of an old era.
Mine on its own also isn't the worst thing in the world. Its a pause button till you hopefully draw what you need but at the same time you're giving your opponent resources(so in this sense still balanced)... but this is on its own. Mine has turned into people shotgunning it out then just time freezing your opponent entirely which has now turned it into one of THE most toxic cards in YGO because the way its being utilized This is also my own opinion while not having the most issues with Mine since I have a crippling hate for floodgates so 3-4 slots of my SD are ALWAYS back row hate. I haven't lost cause of Mystic Mine(yet) but it is extremely frustrating to sit there drawing card after card in such a boring match
the thing is that most good players wont wait for you to have an out, they would stall for 2 or 3 turns until they have enough resources to kill you so they removing mine themselves
@@drillygo6984 to even do that they’ll need to either match your board and pass, use their own backrow removal, or draw into another mine/field spell to remove it. So even that out they still have to draw less you have a fully loaded board. Which in this format if you can stay 3 monsters or less and have a strong board is ideal and what i try to aim for
@1KidneyWonder yes most players, that do what I’m saying have removal for their own mine. or play a diff field spell or just set a mine over the one on field. You can start your combo with mine on field so your opponent can’t interrupt you or wipe their field and only then remove your own mine. You get to play around hand traps and negations that way. you won’t never match the number of monster on field and wait until ep that would be stupid
Interesting video idea that I think you guys would have some good input on, but its "Cards that changed how people play". What I mean by that is like cards that train players to do certain things to play around them. As an example Gorz trained players to attack with low damage monsters first and order into higher attack monsters to avoid the token summon on the first attack. Plenty of players probably still do this subconsciously. I'm sure there are lots of other cards that have had similar effects when they are popular in the meta.
It's funny how this card wouldn't at all be a problem for my old schoolyard (~2005) YuGiOh Deck but somehow it breaks the totally OP modern YuGiOh Decks.
It would absolutely stomp your old deck too, or have you actually played against a mine combo deck with your old deck? Or are you one of the players who think he'd have an easy matchup against mine because he has mst in his deck?
Can’t wait to play backyard Yugioh where my opponent HAS to draw the out while I sit on multiple solemns, extra copies of mystic mine. And even if he does put it for a couple of turns he cannot capitalize on it and I just draw it again lol
Oh please don't see this as critizism of the modern YuGiOh. The game has evolved and I'm not saying my deck would be good, just this one card alone doesn't seem strong in the old meta. Because removal was more in spell/trap cards and some tempo cards could bounce monsters as well, making it destroy itself. And many of your great monsters had no effect anyway like Luster Dragon. If you played a card like that it would likely get destroyed fast by monster/spell removal and you wasted a card you could have used for a Call of the Hunted, Mirror Force, Axe of Despair or something^^
@@tankbustergames9953 that's blatantly untrue. Mystic mine also prevents you from attacking, and even cards like wall of revealing light was semi limited back then, now imagine it without lp cost and searchable. Also decks back then could run much much less s/t removal due to the banlist, and with breaker negated by mine that would leave you with just 3-4 outs. To beat a modern mine deck you'd need to draw about 3 outs during your first 3-5 turns as mine usually comes protected extremely and with backup mines in hand. So no, your oldschool deck would lose without even managing to deal a single damage or destroy a single card.
As he said, as a Pendulum player I'm always torn as to whether or not it's a necessary evil. Going second it's awesome against certain boards, you turn off their board, make Mighty Master and pop their whole board + your own Mine. Like I always thought that was cool, mostly cause I'm the one doing it lol. But when people are actually saying draw + go over and over...
another thing you forgot to mention - if you think you can find a way around it by never summoning a monster at all until you have game - NOPE! Mystic mine players have monsters that can summon to your field just so they can proactively activate mystic mine.
It's the fact that you can't activate Monster Effects ANYWHERE that makes Mystic Mine so powerful. For comparison, a card like Skill Drain costs 1000 Life Points and negates Monster Effects on FIELD only. And Skill Drain is already arguably one of the best floodgates in the game.
I want more of this, next time some Hs or yugi player who doesnt do mtg and let him figur out why some weird good (but not obviously good) mtg csrd is insane... Amazing format
Literally just play vanilla monsters and add some equip spells negating spell/trap effects. Run lots of traps and tribute them off for Vision Hero Witch Raider to nuke your opponents backrow. I think Mine does need to be reduced to 1 but there’s solutions to this card. Get creative. Yes it’s a brain dead card but the same could be said for a solitaire like board that your opponent makes.
"Ruin your deck for every matchup except Mine" is a pretty smooth-brain take tbh. "You didn't make top cut, but at least you showed those dirty floodgate users what's up!" lol.
@@sethkrueger9294 side it out. You don’t have to have a whole deck centered around it. It’s not gonna be perfect. That’s where mine at 1 would balance it out. It’s not the most ideal strat but it’s one of many
@@CptnCobblestone Also at a big event, high consistency of your deck is very important, as you need to win a huge amount of duels, and too much backrow hate reduces your engines consistency.
Check out some of the decks that have been jamming Mystic Mine, and how it's been warping the meta:
bit.ly/3qaDHdl
I noticed that the video is tagged with "Magic: The Gathering" instead of "Yu-Gi-Oh!", and I think it would be more accurate if it was tagged with the game that the discussion is revolving around :)
You should make a video about That Grass Looks Greener and how it forced people to play 60 card decks so as to not auto lose against grass focused decks
@@Neg2YGO ah back when Yu-Gi-Oh was slow enough that grass was actually good, nowadays grass doesn't even win you the game as the opponent 60 card deck of pure engine can put up a more consistent board than you ever can with grass
@@nguyentandung42 You do know eldlich exists right???
@@hexi9595 There's like a million better deck that can use grass and you pick eldlich, seriously what is a whole field of eldlich trap gonna do when only 2 of them is relevant and not even that good compared to today's meta. You should remember that both ocg and tcg are currently in spright tear format and a pop and a banish isn't gonna stop you from being steam roll by them
Alternate title: Magic Player Listens to Yu-Gi-Oh! Player Rant for 10 Minutes
He deff gets hit with the mine at locals😂😂
The other way round would be : MTG-Player explains every little interaction and historical relevance of one card to a Yu-Gi-Oh-Player.
And yet he'll never admit Yugioh is just garbage
Like you're upset about mystic mine when you admit they emphasized monsters too much as it is. That's the only reason why it's good.
@@pinkdelicious655 Yeah all Mystic Mine really did was expose the problems with Yugioh at large.
sounds like he would hate Winter Orb too.
Loving this type of content to be honest; I just wish it'd be longer and discuss other stuff as well, maybe like a podcast type of thing, im sure lots of us dont mind and will enjoy it!
Yoooo a cardmarket podcast would be awesome. Just the boys discussing problem cards and yugioh History, that's a banger idea ngl
Please, God no. Everyone and their mother has a podcast these days
@@Rahnonymous bruh keep crying, if you dont want to watch it just dont
@@NotSoB4 I would definitely watch it. Or listen to it, that's an option too.
One thing that people forget about the recent events that it isn't the control decks that are abusing mystic mine. Its the combo heavy meta decks that run 3 mystic mine and and absolutely demolishing everything in their paths. It is no longer a case of negation board vs mine, but a case of negation board which then gets followed up by Mine.
And people ARE running the outs to mystic mine, issue is that people are now actively running cards to protect and abuse Mine at all costs so most of these outs get negated or the opponent jist activates the 2nd mystic mine.
Yeah its the same argument for maxx c supporters going "it would put combo in check" no the big combo decks run 3 maxx c and then dominate still while occasionally losing a game to being maxx c'ed
@@Cassapphic Master Duel has proved Maxx C doesn't put combo in check, all it does is make Crossout Designator playable LOL
@@Cassapphic Maxx "C" would've been completely fair if at EP it made you banish cards FD equal to the amount you drew. Yes, you could still use hand traps, but then you'd minus at EP when you have to banish, and would be the best way to get to the 1 out for said combo board (drnm, droplet, etc.) It can only work if they banished FD though, since it could benefit the user if they were sent to the GY or banished FU.
Laughs in Spritualism.
@@Rahnonymous congratulations you just made a generic phantazmay
As someone looking in from the outside, I feel like Mine is the conclusion to a more fundamental problem in YGO regarding its card design, because a good chunk of trap cards, a third of its base type cards, are too slow to be reliable, and most modern monsters are basically spells nowadays, and to this day I'm not sure how to feel about modern handtraps, because they basically are live 95% of the time and function perhaps too well.
Most handtraps are practically useless because almost every competitive deck can play through them.
That's why a lot of deck play boardbreakers like DRNM, Droplet, Super Poly or Mine.
@@MrJuan_Vzla I see where you're coming from and I agree for the most part, my point was more towards handtraps being that they can even _be_ played or used as a resource in the worst of cases most of time unlike a traditional trap, which will likely get murked and/or negated before it can do anything
Yep, Konami created the Mystic Mine monster themselves with the way they've crept the game into nothing but ridiculous combo monster effects and ten million negates.
People play trap cards. Rivalry of Warlords and Tearlaments Sulliek (just to name a couple) are extremely heavily played right now. Good traps are just so strong that they're worth playing even though they're "slow".
@@BloodrealmX The strongest current deck makes four negates and plays Mystic Mine.
Kinda reminds me of Spirit Reaper, first card that couldn't be destroyed by battle. It was so overwhelming because it forced players to main deck removal. It could completely shut down a game on its very summon, often resulting in your opponent decking out.
It forced me to 3 Fissure my Goblin Beatdown deck back then
I can see Konami not banning Mystic Mine but unlimiting Harpies Feather duster to 3 lol, because they are so wise.
Nah, they gonna ban beat cop
@@f687sNFM 😂😂
better yet something like "If your opponent controls a face-up "Mystic Mine": Destroy "Mystic Mine" in your opponent's Field Zone"
I think the big brain based decision for Konami would be to keep Mine at 3 and put Harpies Feather Duster AND Heavy Storm to 3. Then people can have multiple outs to it, even when they're the ones who played.
You have, in one sentence, shown more mental prowess than most Konami employees.
One key overlooked fact that wasn't mentioned about the nature of field spells: Even if you're only running mystic mine, you can set the second copy over the first to turn it off and go for game, or if your deck naturally uses field spells, use any other field spell to turn it off.
It doesnt work that way
@@keio4456 But it does, if you set another field spell while another one is active the first goes to the graveyard.
@@KingofEvil you can't play a second Mystic Mine to shut off the Mystic Mine effect. Playing another field spell, sure, but not another MM.
@@TheGamingLegendsOfficial You can SET field spells in the field spell zone face down & their effects don't apply until you choose to activate them and flip that card face up.
Therefore, what you can do is this:
> Activate Mine
> When Mine no longer needed, set a face down Mine in the FZ
> Existing Mine will be sent to grave as result and you now have a face down Mine in the FZ which you can activate later on
@@miq1533 ah, yes, I did forget about that. Almost never applicable.
Mystic Mine also won events during its release year of 2019. Players were using traptrick to search metaverse and basically quick effect activate mine. Metaverse was limited as a result of this, killing the interaction since traptrick needs to banish an extra copy to set the metaverse.
In addition, many Shaddoll Invoked decks in early 2020 mained 1 copy of paleozoic dinomischus to out mine. They use dinomischus bc it discards for effect rather than cost, meaning it can trigger shaddolls lol
Not only trap trick, lament who can pick 3 to set 1 randomly is an issue why metaverse is limited
Something that doesnt come up in this, although its more of an issue on a competitive level, is its impact on the time constraints in tournament. The amount of stall that it provides just extends duels so long that in some cases its just better to surrender to mine activating than actively waiting out the turns it would take to hopefully win, as wasting more time would lead to a rushed final game, or worse ending the match before a 3rd game could even be played.
Time rules are already bad in competitive yugioh, and all mine does is make it all the more toxic.
If only Konami would print spell and trap removal!
You'd think after 10000 cards, at least 1 would be a spell or trap that removes spells/traps but nope.
@@kapwns mystical space typhoon, Harpies feather duster, heavy duster storm, heavy storm, lightning storm, duster storm, twin twister, raigeki break, night beam.
@@kapwns I know you're being funny, but in all seriousness thats already been adressed. People are running spell trap removal in cosmic and galaxy cyclones and even twin twisters, but the issue once again comes down to beat cop existing, meaning you have to draw the out twice to get even 1 turn in, not to mention the other possible floodgates the mine players are running as back up.
And even if you do run multiple outs, those cards arent going to aid in actually playing your strategy, so if you run to many they'll just brick you out. Basicly in dealing with mine you have to make your deck less consistant to fight exactly one card that shuts down all but a handful of you deck, and forces you to draw->pass untill you draw 2 outs, and only then do you get to fight the guy whos also drawn 7 cards over the turns you've drawn and passed.
@@thunderhogTH Cards like Lightning Storm and Evenly match are meant to be answer for established boards but with all of the Extra Deck monsters with negates + hand traps Konami ended up printing Forbidden Droplet and Dark Ruler No More. A player going second with Mystic Mine generally can't even activate it because modern YGO has so many negates. It would just get destroyed on activation.
I really don't understand the argument for making your deck less consistent just to play backrow hate. That's more a fault on Konami for constantly making the top decks special summon spam. You generally have to hit your own deck's consistency to even play some hand traps and side deck options to deal with some match up so I really don't get why having to play more than 1 form of backrow removal is suddenly an issue. No one is playing a card like Forbidden Droplet, Dark Ruler No More, Evenly Matched, Artifact Lancea, Droll & Lock Bird, Gozen Match, Skill Drain and so on to advance their combos. They play them to slow down the game state just enough to survive a turn which could mean the difference between losing or winning because the current game does not allow for multiple turns of hoping you draw the out.
In this case the out can be Droplet/DRNM for outing an established board of omni negate monsters that will OTK you for going second or any for form backrow removal for a floodgate like Mystic Mine/Skill Drain that are meant to slow down the game so that player can start their combos.
At this point if Mine does get banned, and it probably will and because it's unfair it would be for the tournament time rules, I'll be waiting for the player base to cry about Skill Drain, Majesty's Fiend and Vanity's Fiend or floodgate flavor of the month for not allowing players to combo off like they always want to all while Spright and Tearlament dominate the format.
@@EinSilverRose The fact that you're saying Mine can't activate going second proves to me you have no idea what you're on about.
Mystic Mine is what Master Dual players think Skill Drain is
I just tribute Pankretops to pop skill drain because I can activate it.
@@vxicepickxv Exactly the point lol
Also not a Field Spell so not searchable nor protectable with all the Field Spell support
@@arga400 plus, mystic mine even if it didn't have any support, people would still be using it because it's just that toxic of a card
🤣
you can play around skill drain with side, not in a best of 1
As a YGO player, I would love to see a similar concept as this video, except talking about MTG. I'm not interested in playing it myself, but I do like to see the discussions of the metagame and such via the perspective of a YGO player.
i saw cimo review some mtg cards and it came down to "THIS STRAIGHT UP DRAWS CARDS! WITH NO DOWNSIDE" *mini orgasm*
Mystic Mine being such an overwhelmingly popular toxic trashbag is 100% a symptom of how the game has degenerated. Everything entirely revolves around ridiculously long combos, repeating field nukes, and negates, and all of them run almost exclusively on monster effects. As soon as you present one single card that remains on the field for more than an instant and needs a Spell or Trap to remove, the game totally shuts down.
Inversely, a lot of people abuse special summoning when they don't need to and it doesn't benefit them. Maybe that's not speaking to the meta but I just played someone that spent literally 15-20 minutes setting up their board turn 1 only to surrender when I cleared their field turn 2.
For reference, I can't remember their entire "combo" but I'm not exaggerating. At points it had halq, herald, etc etc but ended on nothing important. I play blackwing and ended on full armor master (which is a one card combo off simoon) and Raikiri.
Nibiru has joined the chat
You do not need to remove it at all. Play Sword of the Deep Seated and infinitely discard it during the End Phase. 1 copy in the side deck is enough. It does not even matter when you draw it. You literally cannot be decked out. And if your opponent is stupid enough to play burn, there are monster effects that are continous.
@@Cetra29 Or add Final Countdown, or Exodia for shit and giggle.
The two big warp and play around type cards I can think of is Gorz and Mekk Knights. To this day, people still attack directly in ascending order and avoid 2 cards in the same column on instinct because of those two.
To add about the column thing it's also for imperm which still is somewhat around.
For any magic players that are trying to wrap their head around Mystic Mine imagine playing Modern but every combo deck can have a one sided Blood Moon and Moat active at anytime to stop you from playing the game.
Except modern have 1 mana removal because they can put it. Yugioh complainers want consistency without sacrificing slot for ST removal. You cant eat your cake and still have it.
@@eavyeavy2864 to be fair the whole point is that the removal is in the extra deck. And is going to be tied to monster effects which Mine completely shuts off. Plus MTG doesn't have monsters that are unaffected or untargetable everywhere in their meta game. Imagine if in modern infect every creature had hexproof inherently or could once per turn counter any spell. Removal in those scenarios just kinda folds in value.
Force of Vigor, pitch a dork. Who needs mana anymore?
@@eavyeavy2864 people are siding S/T removal for Mine... It's just being backed up by Beat Cop, Judgment, etc. You aren't very informed about the meta game if you think it's that simple
... there are a tone of ways in modern to get around a card like Mystic mine, heck they have printed similar effects ... as they said we have effects that straight up say "creatures cant attack" But that said in magic creature effects ... while useful don't shut off your entire game plan like it can in yugioh. the card would be balanced by requiring a level of mana to cast, heck Magic has its own "you cant cast spells" mechanics but they usually require more than 1 card to play, and a large mana cost to boot. Chalice comes to mind here, and i was watching someone play vintage with a 6 drop and mycrosynth latice ? ... idk any way what im trying to say is this card would be dogsheet in magic.
The way his face sunk when you told him the s/t removal was on monsters 😂
MST: The strongest monster
@@icarosro nice, now draw it and have the opponent not have beatcop or a negate trap.
You are playing in a tournament so your goal is to beat a variety of decks most of which wont have relevant backrow.
The most you can dedicate to mine is 3 side deck slots which is hard to actually draw.
@@luminous3558 yes. Just saying that you have Spell/trap tô remove backroll. It is a Shame that Konami created no engine tô search backroll removal
@@icarosro backroll? Do you mean backrow?
@@luminous3558 Stuff like MST or Cosmic Cyclone are also good at answering continuous spells and traps, in addition to Mystic Mine, and backrow. Remember that Continuous spells don't get their abilities if they are removed in response to their activation. The cards have more utility then just being answers to Mystic Mine. Also it's okay from a game design point of view for there to be cards in your deck that aren't good in every match up. If you've created a game where 100% of the cards in your deck need to be good in 100% of matchups then you have failed at creating a good game. That's just toxic design.
as a mtg and yugioh player i can say mine is the equivalent of humility that also shuts down planeswalker. it started as a dedicated stax deck but now people realized that when you deck is already competent you can play it and auto win against decks that lack an out and otherwise just play a good deck.
In effect yes, but YGO very much reads as an Omniscience format, where everything is free. The fact mine can leverage you from any point is absurd, and it baffles me how it was designed. I can "understand" design mistakes that involve the hivemind finding interactions with cards separated by years between printing, but stand alone mistakes like Mine are just... Baffling.
@@Folfire just tryin to give some better context to pure mtg players. with no resource system it is completely impossible to do good comparison between yugioh and any other tcg
This channel is great. Card Market should be happy they hired you. A lot of really fun and interesting videos. Watched all the shorts already haha
Late to the party on this video, but videos like this and on your MTG and having a discussion about broken cards even though the other person doesn't know the other game well is great. As it gets a different view of the broken card, and really shows how much of an impact it can be. I do this with a few of my friends that might not play the same games as me anymore but still know TCGs.
I think the biggest reason why Mystic Mine has become so meta-warping is because people have also realized that it's not just good in control decks, but also in combo decks - from the latest nationals there were combo decks like Spright, Swordsoul, Drytron, and Rikka Sunavalon that all played Mystic Mine. This creates a paradox in side decking because you want to put in cards to handle the powerful monster negation that combo decks generate, but you also need backrow removal for Mystic Mine. Not many decks can handle board in that many cards, so understandably players are upset when they lose to one aspect of the deck or the other when they can't properly account for both.
Hmmmmm almost like they've recently unlimited multiple cards that can handle it. "B-b-but even if you draw it it gets negated"
Also people still keep limiting their decks to 40.... Just make your deck like 45... Hell even 50 if you need to in order to get the cards needed to deal with something like this.
B-b-but having 41 or more cards makes the deck inconsistent! "
It really doesn't make that much difference. Especially in modern where decks are basically search engines.
@@HoloTWWOriginal You aren't very smart, are you?
@@HoloTWWOriginal so your proposal is to maindeck more cards, that are dead in multiple matchups to make sure you draw multiple outs in a specific matchup? So you decrease consistency in hope to increase consistency?
@@jonasimhof9888 you seriously still think, that in modern Yu-Gi-Oh with all the search effects and combos that search your deck, that adding 3-5 more cards is going to make your deck bad/useless?
And no they're not just dead on "multiple matchups" how many meta decks (let's say the top 10 most popular being ayes right now) don't have some sort of field, continuous spell/trap cards that are regularly used? Or hell, I'm sure there are quick play spell cards that they would be nice to have against.
Idk I rarely look at what "top decks" are. I'm generally just build decks around what I like to play. Although I have been trying out the sprites recently and heard those are one of the more favorite decks ATM. I have some decks that are 40 and some that are as many as 50. Do I always win? No. But it's not like I overwhelmingly lose either.
You guys are so stuck in your little molds and set ways that just aren't required anymore. In 2004? Yeah it made sense. Even in 2013ish it made sense. Going much further past that though and the 40 card rules just starts becoming less and less needed.
@@HoloTWWOriginal Ofc the deck won't be useless. Hell I like playing 60 card Decks, espacially in decks with engine pieces that are useless when Drawn. But here is some math if you play a 40 card Deck and want to open in a way you beat mine (at least 2 removal spells) you'll have to run 13 copies of backrow removal. You could run 45 cards and 14 spells of removal. Keep in mind there is only a 50% chance you'll open 2 removal spells. The rest or the time you'll still end up in an "just draw the out scensario" in which a classic mine player will most likely win the Topdeck war since he plays maire options of protection/ways to replace mine than you play S/T removal. So let's say your deck plays 12 Starter cards. By going from 40 to 45 cards the Chance if opening one (assuming your deck is a one card combo) go from 85 to 80%. Does not seem like much but during a long event it could make a difference. If you need 2 cards out of 18 your chances go from 75% to 67%. Still might not seem like much but mathemathecially speaking that means in 12 duels you open your combo one less time. The more specific your engine requitents get. I need to open 1 of those 8 cards and 1 of those other 10 cards. The worse the chances get. Sure running 41 or 45 cards isn't horrible (looking at the people in the top 16 of YCS Rio most of them ran more than 40 cards). There is a reason people do it. But most S/T removal isn't worth it.
In the current Formst you have to play cards to break boards. So you'll have to dedicate at least some space for those cards and while other board breakers exist they aren't as good as DRNM. So by increasing your Deck size you'll have to play more board breakers that subpar to the other boatd breakers you usually play.
But let's play through a few scenarios. You need to play S/T removal. I think we agree siding 12 outs to Mine is an horrible idea. You'll probably loose game 1 against mine, still only have a 50% chance in game 2 and 3 to draw the out and your Sidedeck has basically just answers to mine.
And while it is true that IF (Spright does not run any field spells) your oponent relies on field spells and happens to have a way to access them your S/T removal has some use. If you are going second have to break a board then well ...You might be able to out a sided floodgate or pop the tearelement fieldspell... but in most scenarios you would rather see Board breakers.
And as I said. A few percent don't seem like much. But during a weekend with like 40 duels a few percent can have a significant impact on your placing. If going from 40 to 42 cards would guarantee a win in the mystic mine matchup everybody would do it. But if you run a deck and have to go from 40 to 50 cards. Just in case you happen to face mystic mine and reduce the chance of seeing your better cards in other matchups just isn't worth it.
"Ok guys, but with all due respect. How are you not prepared for mine at this point. It’s a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament."
The plan is clearly, "complain A Lot, until Konami bans it because I'm sure af not playing s/t removal ever, no matter what"
The Cotton Classic
@@kapwns The problem is it's just so hard to keep up with combo decks you need hand traps so giving up 1-2 spots for s/t removal is making the combo match ups worse
@@kapwns either that was ironic or you did not understand the comment that was being made fun of.
@@dafoofy I think there is something called "Side decking" for this situation.
I do like these videos talking about current meta and abit of the history about the card.
I mostly play MTG. It sounds like Mystic Mine has the role that Dredge had in Modern. Basically, a good round 1 deck that gets worse post sideboarding. Those sorts of decks can be over-tuned but they can also be fine in the meta. I understand that the Mine deck is running protection but I feel like Yugioh has enough outs that can be run in the sideboard but maybe it is too punishing to dedicate that many slots. I find the hatred for Mine being a one card easy floodgate ironic since Yugioh is known for turn 1 deck setting up negates.
MTG has a couple cards that basically say remove all copies of a named card from your opponent's deck (like Prohibition). There are ones that say remove copies of a target card in the graveyard. Those might be decent options if they get printed although Yugioh lacks mana costs.
the problem with mine is that it's just one card not the whole architype so after dealing with it you still have to deal with the rest of the deck this is not a big problem for decks who only focus on mine but a lot of decks just use mine cause it happens to synergise with what they are doing anyway. for example spright is the best deck without mine so with mine if sideboard too many card to deal with mine you are not gonna have the cards to deal with spright while still playing your deck
Yes, but Mine decks also play cards like Solemn Judgment which can negate backrow removal. The reason Mine is hated far more than negate boards is because neither player really does anything for an extended period of time, but negate boards can be played through. Breaking a board in yugioh is fun, waiting to draw the out isn't.
@@mrdactyl2303 negate boards are not easy to play through, board breaking is fun sure but sometimes you just dont draw the out or have enough outs to them in which case you lose or stall somehow till you draw the outs you need. Another issue is that some combo decks can even out thier outs eg. hot red dragon archfiend vs DRNM.
Seems more like a mix of Ensnaring Bridge with no cards in hand and Blood Moon where opponent has all non-basics all in one card.
Aye they have to side into stuff to get rid usually
However you know that and then add things to protect it
"The premium S/T removal are monster effects"
Jamin: "Oh? OH! OOOOooooohhhh.... fuck."
Keep it up with this content!
Also I feel like we're heading towards a Firewall situation, where in 2018 I think, Firewall Dragon became such a problem with ftks and extra link combos that people harassed and spammed konami with "BAN FIREWALL" on every. single. post. I hope Mine gets banned before we get to that
I actually think Mine at one could be okay. The mine minigame between combo and midrange decks trying to stick one to slow down the game for a few turns can actually be interesting. The decks cramming 3 and repeatedly replacing it is just awful.
true, also would be interesting to see how mine burn decks play without the 2 copies. they can play 1 of the field that mimics a field spell in gyby banishing it but since it banish you can only play 1 and doesn't work if you dont have a mine in gy already
"Everyone racing to play a single copy of the same card" isn't as fun as you think it is.
You're wrong
As a Yu-Gi-Oh player getting into magic. I love these videos!
welcome to the better card game ... i jest ... sort of ... actually i feking hate playing yugioh outside of the psp video games ... i watch people play it though.
Mine is also really unhealthy in the sense that even if you run outs in some cases it's better to instantly surrender if you don't have it in hand because of time constraints. The card has survived way too long at this point
I would say Mine was fine back in 2019 during Sky Striker, orcust, salad's hayday since your side deck and sometimes main deck had the outs most likely anyways. And if it didn't the sidedeck was still flexible enough that you could put them in for the next event.
Problem is that now, combo decks have evolved too much that your side deck has to focus solely on those decks. Of course not every deck has that problem, but the decks that don't are rogue decks at best so even though you can fit the outs into them they still struggle to keep up with everything else. Easy work around for this in a way that doesn't shaft people like Jeff Leonard who made a name playing mine is for yugioh to adopt Vanguard's way of "this card isn't banned however you cannot play this card if you're playing *x*" that way it ensures that older people like jeff who may struggle to keep up with how fast this game progresses can still have fun. It also puts a lot of other degenerate crap in check and would fix yugioh's biggest problem of "this deck is broken because of this one card that's not broken on its own"
*Edit* another fix is to bring it back to master rule 4. Letting these combo decks have free reign of zones of made decks way too strong.
The issue with Master Rule 4 was something that they actually realized extremely quickly: A deck couldn't properly function without its own link monster(s).
This is why we saw so many link monsters made for old archetypes that were combo decks. It just wasn't a sustainable solution for them to keep going back and giving every single combo deck a link monster though, and they made the decision to allow them to be summoned to any zone again (outside of face-up pendulums).
Plus, all the meta decks now were made after MR5 started, so it's not like they implemented MR5 last week and suddenly skyrocketed these decks to viability unintentionally.
duel links already has that vanguard type of rule that you are saying, because in that game the semi limit list is gigantic because you can only play 2 total of any cards on it which somewhat keeps decks on check by not letting them play tech cards that are really powerful in that format like enemy controller and treacherous trap hole or by putting two cards from the same archetype on the list simultaneously effectively making it so you can only use 1 of each or cutting one out entirely
@@DoctorOaks the older decks that they arent making archetype support for aren't exactly playable to begin with so the mr5 change didnt really help them all that much. And for the decks being made after the change it makes no difference, being able to play an extra deck full of degenerate crap without restriction has unbalanced the game.
@@mikaelamonsterland yeah i havent plaued duel links in a long time so i have zero clue how they run it there but restrictions like what Vanguard does helps keep the game healthy and i think regular yugioh would greatly benefit from it.
The fix is let the meta adapt to mine. This bullshit of ban/limit mine because "meta decks" don't have to room to deal with it nonsense is just that nonsense. If you can't figure out a way to adapt to the possibility of mine then you honestly don't deserve to win. Part of TCG is adapting and preparing for things like Mine and the last few tournaments meta decks are running less than 3 removal cards. Mine isn't the problem bad deck building is
Really enjoy these types of videos from you guys! I think it’s really interesting!!
Funnily enough, when I was fighting my friends a few weeks ago in a tag duel and one of my opponents unapologetically played Mystic Mine trying to be annoying. What ended up happening was me and my teammate locked his team down with a combination of mirror forces and my Ghostricks. They couldn't burn us either because I had Ghostrick Mansion out, and decking us out wasn't an option because both of us had a 60 deck. It got so bad he tried to find a way to destroy his own Mystic Mine, but once my teammate played his own Mystic Mine he ragequit. It was beautiful.
He forgot to mention that it’s searchable through several cards (including on your opponent’s turn) and Runick has an easily summoned monster that protects it if you don’t have Beat Cop
I'd like to rebut the last statement. There are two Runick fusions that protect. One protects Runick spells traps when singularly targeted.
The other protects from non-targetring, multiple card wipes. To sum up, while Runick can protect, it ain't protecting much depending on the correct utility. Not only that, but if you are playing Runick, you're likely not gonna put out a Mystic Mine unless you're against the wall with dead draws or you are facing down an otk board. It's just a tactical safety net in that situation, and even if you get it out you can't win without the runick field spell.
@@blackgaia102 don't forget runic also banishes from your deck so if you are stuck under mine and you can't find the out they will just banish your whole deck and there is nothing you can do about it trust me it's all my friend plays and it is just the worst
@@mortag65 it's also all I play. Sure you can banish under Mine but that's if luck favors you. Both situations drawing until mill or drawing until out are both situational.
The closest Magic example that I can think of is the Teferi Time Raveler + Knowledge Pool combo. This combo makes it so your opponents can't play ANY card besides lands. And it doesn't affect you negatively.
I feel like the fact that Mine warps the meta so heavily is more an indictment of the state of Yugioh as a game, than it is an issue of Mine being inherently OP. The fact that so many decks are so creature centric that being asked to run other types of cards is a huge ask is an issue. Magic has some similar cards in things like Ward of Bones that are way more broad than Mine is, and aren't symmetrical, and it's not an issue. And the complaint that it's helping the decks that use it win tournaments strikes as a non-argument. Like yeah, every good piece of non-archetypal support is going to help the strategies it works in do better. That's literally the entire point of generic support. It'd be like complaining that Laboratory Maniac supports self-mill decks.
I just don't know how a game can regularly produce decks like Dragon Link, that play 20+ cards turn 1, and then be like Mystic Mine is the problem. We can't just expect players to deal with the trade off of having to run some extra S/T removal. Maybe if decks didn't use like 30 cards in ridiculous wombo combo lines, they'd be able to fit in some more outs.
Yet mtg banned Mycosynth Lattice because combined with Karn the Great Creator it shuts down lands completely. Your comment would kinda read like "that's more an issue of mtg as a game for being so land focused and not of the combo being inherently OP, the fact that so many decks are so land focused that being asked to run other types of mana sources like the spirit guides is an issue", which is already ridiculous. And those are two combo pieces at 6 mana, unlike mine which is a single card and is almost always live on turn 1 in a mine deck.
The thing is, mine is a very consistent card. As is protecting it with a beat counter. And having a backup mine in hand. A lot of players seem to have this weird thought that just splashing 3-4 s/t removals will just make mine no longer an issue, but what's that worth when your removal is much less consistent (as generic removal has no searchers or recycling, since it is generic)? Running a decent amount of s/t-removal, which a lot of decks actually do, won't do anything against mine, and that's the first issue. The second issue is that regardless of your deck style, the wincon will almost always be combat damage, and mine denies that completely. There are cards like Skill Drain, which also negate all monster effects on the field, yet they aren't problematic at all because you can still play around them. Mine doesn't give you that option, it's "draw multiple outs by turn 5 or lose".
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718
That's a false equivalence. Mine doesn't prevent you from playing spells and traps. There's no way that you can even pretend that that is the same thing as turning off all permanents in magic (not just lands). Also, Karn isn't symmetrical, like Mine is. It's just a ludicrous comparison
@@kentsilvain7329 And Karn doesn't prevent you from playing instants and sorceries. The spirit guides even provide mana on a non permanent. "I feel like the fact that Karn + Mycosynth warps the meta so heavily is more an indictment of the state of mtg as a game, than it is an issue of the combo being inherently OP. The fact that so many decks are so permanent centric that being asked to run other types of cards and mana sources is a huge ask is an issue." Do you find that statement ludicrous? Then you know how your comment reads to a yugioh player. Also mine being symmetrical is obviously absurd, you play mine in your combo deck where you use it to put the game to a standstill, then eventually once you have your combo pieces ready you pop it with another field spell and go ham with your combo. In that case mine does not affect you at all so it's not even remotely symmetrical. Also let's not forget karn + lattice still lets you attack, and due to the high mana costs even tron decks only have it out by turn 4, unlike mine being a turn 1 card. And as for your "hurr durr just use your multiple unsearchable spell trap removal and hope you top deck multiples of them", here's my answer:
Why don't mtg players just include 4 simic spirit guides and 4 1 mana artifact destroyers in their decks instead of banning mycosynth? You can totally deal with it that way, have mtg players forgot that simic spirit guide is a thing?
@@kentsilvain7329 and while ward of bones is a false equivalent due to its horrid mana costs and it not affecting the cards in play at all, imagine this: ward of bones at 1 mana instead of 6 and with blood moon, ensnaring bridge and humility on top. Every combo deck in the game would just start with a spirit guide + ward if they didn't draw their combo pieces, even potentially mulligan down to two just for these two, because with a ward and no other permanents on the field your opponent is unable to do pretty much anything except adding the spirit guide + 1 mana artifact removal to every single deck and hoping to draw both fast enough before the combo player draws their combo. Add it to a format like legacy where ftks are absolutely possible in combo decks and see how messy it would get. And then do an "hurr durr just draw spirit guide + removal, don't even bother with how stuffing your deck with tons of these cards makes it weaker against the actual combo" comment.
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718
You mean the Spirit Guides that aren't legal in the format that Lattice was banned in? And hey, guess what, the Spirit Guides are played in the formats they're legal in, along with a bunch of the super cheap removal you're suggesting.
Again, the fact that you have to try to equate monsters to permanents, rather than creatures belies that this argument is not being made in good faith. First of all monsters are in no way necessary to play spells or traps, unlike how mana sources are necessary for spells in magic, including instants and sorceries. The only way that you could even attempt to justify that parallel would be to argue that monsters are as integral to yugioh as the combined value of every single permanent type in magic, which would itself support my point that yugioh being solely dependent on 1 of the major card types isn't good for the game. Secondly, even if you wanted to draw that comparison, cards like Stasis, static orb and winter orb that work to try and shut down mana sources (and creatures as well). Hell, Karn and Lattice are both still legal in Legacy and Vintage. It's also worth noting that Mine has an out to itself included on the card, which none of these legal magic cards do.
In toss both orcust and salad ran omni-negates that they could search and guarantee an out to a mine focused strategy. T-dragons did not, but in a format where 3/4 of the best decks had outs it was hardly consistent.
Also kind of understated was the hoops people are going through to attack directly with mine on field. Recently an altergeist list topped an event that would summon meluseek, attack directly, then shuffle it into deck with spoofing then add another copy of meluseek to hand. meaning at the end phase the altergeist player would always have 0 monsters on field.
Also another notable absurdity of the card is that it checks at the end phase to destroy itself. so even if the opposing player manages to get equal monsters on board, they need to give the mine player a whole turn with likely 0 monsters on board. This also allows for weird plays to force mine to stay. A sky striker player can with 1 monster on board force the opponent to link off their whole board into 1 monster, then shark cannon another monster onto the field. yes the mine 'burden' is passed onto the sky striker player, but sky striker can out it whenever they want through multi-role or area zero. They can consolidate into a zeke, then hayate and still attack directly since you have 1 monster on board their monster effects can go through as well until they use their spells to clear ur guy. When they pass turn to you, you can use monster effects until you hit 2 monsters, which is pretty necessary to get to a lot of your extra deck outs.
also fk metaverse and demise of the land, makes mine decks a thing, because you dont have to go 2nd to see value
I was today years old when I found out that Mystic Mine was still legal over in the west. :0
Yeah it's weird how the TCG and OCG each have their own separate toxic cards. Konami will, much more often than you'd expect, recognize a card is a problem in one of the two formats and bans or limits it there, but then doesn't do the same in the other format. Sometimes they have preemptively banned old cards in the TCG in anticipation of the release of a new card that was already in the OCG which had made the old card broken, and there are some cards that are banned in both formats for being too obviously good, but it's really the parts of the venn diagram that don't overlap that really make you scratch your head.
@@drewbabe personally it's because of motive. Japan's ban choices always serve one of a few purposes:
1. Stop any and all FTKs and/or Tier 0 decks (also their tolerance is absurdly high for that kinda thing. One tournament where I am was split an even 50 50 between two variants of the same deck one time) by banning the non-profitable parts into oblivion.
2. When a booster box release and banlist month coincide (2x a year), ban the previous Tier 1/2 to make way for the new release.
3. When the "TCG exclusive catchup box" releases, ban any resulting combos that could result of slight tweaks between rulings.
TL;DR: To me OCG banlists are always retroactive and TCG, having the perk of watching the OCG create the combos before they get carried over, is mostly proactive.
In magic the gathering, we have a popular main stay card called chalice of the void, a card that prevents both players from playing cards with mana value x, where you get to choose x. Imagine it’s a card that prevents you from hand trapping, or normal or special summoning any monster card with star value of x.
There is also a famous two card combo that had to be banned that won you the game on turn 7 at the latest if your opponent did not have a negate ready. There is no continuous or field spell limit in magic. To over simplify the combo, It involves a card that turned all cards on your opponent’s battlefield and basically hand into a specific card type in addition to their original card type. Then you had another card that specifically that you can’t attack or activate any abilities with that card type, and allows you find the first card from your extra deck and put into your hand. This effectively makes it so that your opponent cannot play any cards from their hand nor attack you for the rest of the game allowing you to play solitaire and win the game.
The aforementioned 2 card combo was put in both combo decks and control decks before being banned where the combo variant tries to get it out early as possible while the control variant slows the game down long enough where they can feel confident to play it without it being negated.
Is Mystic Mine a problem that Konami should address? Absolutely.
But so is the exponential increase in powercreep yugioh is suffering in the past few years. We've come to the point where previous formats' tier 1 decks vanish from the current one without so much as a banlist. As soon as Spright and Tearlaments hit TCG, Despia and Swordsoul were gone from bigger tournaments' top cuts. And that's as big (if not bigger) a problem. Meta decks' lifespan is getting shorter and the game is getting too fast.
And given how absurdly expensive some of these new decks can get, someone winning an YCS with a Mystic Mine Ojama that costs 1/10 of the price would be the people's champion. lol
It's always curious to me how yugioh players complain a lot more about control cards/decks than combo, even when the latter presents pretty much the same issue.
the main advantage combo is twofold, it is fun to play a combo deck in a way it is much more involved and usually isn't winning by the one floodgate that beats your deck, and that hand traps provide interaction and adjusting your combo on the fly based on how your opponent interrupts you.
I agree with you. They do this because it makes them more money, plain and simple. Blame capitalism.
I will always root for ojama mine. That’s based
I honestly feel like the ishizu cards along with tear will just be a step too far they can never take back. just making the PUNK engine seems like it barely uses the GY at all.
milling all of your deck in turn 1 just seems utterly insane to me.
@@Cassapphic I'd agree with you if meta decks hadn't become increasingly netdecky in the past few years.
Even extremely strong meta decks that could do a little bit of everything like Sky or Salaman needed to think during matches because there were multiple routes. Going for something meant not going for something else. You couldn't do everything at once. You can see by how those decks had multiple variants over the years, everyone making their own version to counter other stuff.
But now archetypes can absolutely do everything at once. Tri-Brigade was exceptionally annoying when Master Duel launched because it would shrug multiple handtraps and even if you negate everything, the trap would just recycle the entire combo while putting the boss monster in the field at the same time. Floowan has combo, tribute, control, removal, etc all baked into its main deck. Every single Swordsoul card has 3 effects, one more broken than the last. Adventure can be slapped into any deck and gives at least 2 baits. All without having to deviate from the standard combo because they all can shrug multiple interruptions.
Despia has a really cheap burn to put on the field that if you don't remove quickly will end your game. Can't get more control than that. I can go on.
And those were last format's meta. They're dead now. Spright And Tearlaments are better in almost every way.
You only really see experimentation at the highest levels, where the best players try to improvise and surprise their opponent, because their decks would otherwise be functionally the same. Everywhere else, it's the same combo over and over again. Because of faster powercreep, these same combos born from youtube videos are all that's needed to win most of the time.
Meta has always been meta and that's not the issue here, the problem is faster powercreep is increasing the gap between meta and everything else, so the skill gap is not as important as it once was and matches are getting the same even with combo decks.
i want to say that this channel has become one of my favorite TCG channels as of late, I'm not currently into TCGs but if I get back into MTG I will definitely try out Cardmarket over Card Kingdom to help support this kind of content ;P
Asking the real questions here lmao.
i think most people has forgot the fact that Yu-Gi-Oh is based on monsters, spell and trap cards, playing mostly monsters and be prepare only to counter monster cards is a issue, players and konami as created it, mine in my opinion is a reminder that we have 3 main types of cards in the game.
Literally nobody ever forgot that. Mine defenders are getting ridiculous.
Mystic mine still sucks if you play all the outs you can afford, because then it's still a game of "draw the out lol", or more realistically "draw 2-3 outs lol" because mine decks as discussed in the video are also on destruction protection, things like judgment etc.
Somebody found a workaround for the Mystic Mine self destruction by preventing activations after they resolved it with a different spell. It was kind of extra frustrating. Of course if they could pop it, then they couldn't activate another one to play it.
@@vxicepickxv I think Field Barrier also prevents it from being destroyed, right?
That has literally been yugioh for the past couple years tho you either draw the out and congrats you get to play yugioh or you don’t and get to be otkd by your opponent the turn after… it’s a bit bs… yugioh in general has gotten to the point you wonna be as uninteractive as possible
@@bryanhickernell7189 that's not really true tbf. Big combos that end on multiple negates are uninteractive and boring to play against, but at least it's not "draw this one card that rarely helps against other decks or surrender", since most interruptions are either once per turn or even just one time, so if you can start multiple plays in a turn or do good baits with cards that still provide value in the gy, you can still power through big boards. But with mine there's no playing around, no baiting, no powering through, absolutely 0 interactions, just "draw 6 maindeck s/t destroyers or lose"
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 how is it any different then draw your hand trap or loose or draw droplet or dark ruler or loose? Bc some end boards are like that. It’s uninteractive Omni negates should be banned in general because there should be inherent weaknesses in a negate because it’s inherently powerful. Omni negates are more so. And therefore should have bigger draw backs to the card.
I’ve been going back and forth with the guys in the Yugioh subreddit. Mine is broken but I don’t think it’s the whole problem with Mine. Mine is a card that should balance the game. It should not be a Royal Oppression type tool, but it does end up in that role. The biggest issue is that the game is moving so far away from any semblance of balance in favor of becoming this competitive solitaire game. I think this is a symptom that the state of the game is beyond what is healthy in terms of power creep and speed. Decks back in the day were constructed with more balance, but now, due to requiring a stack of hand traps to be able to deal with other matchups and just not lose, it’s bad game design at the helm of the issue, and Mine’s dominance is just a symptom of that issue.
I would like to see if these mystic mine decks are capable of beating old top decks like 2012 black wings. A point in the game where monster effects didn't dominate.
Ultimately, konami tries to have their cake and eat it too with floodgates. They were probably fine back in the day when the pace was slower. I actually think the game is pretty good these days when you play two meta decks against each other with no rivalry, dimensional barrier, mine, and other floodgates. But flipping a floodgate with the pace of the game today completely destroys the pace of the game and they are impossible to adequately side against because you have to be prepared for monster style boards. They either gotta ban all the big floodgates or ban like every archetype from the last 4 years. It's only one or the other imo.
Im srry but the decks in yugioh very never really balanced except maybe for edison format. You always had some bs thats either gonna kill u on the first turn or make an unheakty amount of advatnage from 2 power cards
@@MagikBased lol mine would have been trash in that format
@@MagikBased mine causes issues now because today's monsters have all the old S/T effects stacked on them
I’ve never played Yugioh and I know nothing about the game, but I’ve played a LOT of Lantern Control in MTG, and I think I LOVE Mystic Mine 🤷🏻♂️😅
Ud be so happy knowing a mystic mine deck can only cost u 150 dollars
A very enjoyable rant. I’d love to see another!
The MTG equivalent of Mine is a 3 mana enchantment that says "The player that controls the most lands cannot declare an attack or cast spells from their hand."
There are outs (Boseiju) and you can play around it (stop playing lands) but even that's difficult because you better hope your deck can function on 3 lands maximum. And now people are winning Pro Tours with decks that go Simian Spirit Guide twice into dropping it on one land, then using 1 mana spells to give it a shield counter and shroud while they poke you for 1 every turn. It's just an incredibly frustrating situation.
Your equivalent is wrong it would be closer to not casting creature spells than all spells. You would still be able to cast instant and sorceries
@@ghouse7154 No that's a literal translation but doesn't take into account the way Yu-Gi-Oh is designed. Magic decks still contain instants and sorceries, it's very atypical to have a deck that is all creatures. Yu-Gi-Oh decks are frequently all or nearly all monster effects, and the non monster effects are used to find monsters so their effects can be used.
Mystic Mine Runick: "Just draw the out. Oh, I banished all your outs? Well then GG."
Funny. I play Runick sans Mystic Mine. Because I know Mystic Mine is just cancer.
I quite literally feel like that’s how yugioh in general is right now bc if this was a monster eff nobody would bat an eye the fact that it’s a spell card is what is fing with people
@@bryanhickernell7189 It it was a monster effect it will be outed by dark ruler, Monster removal, kaijus etc. Which are good or decent vs combo anyways.
@@bryanhickernell7189 no monster effect like that would ever be printed on a card that you can just place on the field by itself
@@Harmonic14 you’d think that but the other way boss monsters are going wouldn’t surprise me
Watching this video gave me an idea, run Dark Hole to counter mystic mine?
So you combo off turn 1, make a big ass board.
They manage to land a Mine, and you use a resource in your hand to destroy whatever remains in your board and pass the turn unprotected. EOT, Mine gets destroyed.
Your opponent was on Drytron and kills you on the next turn.
That is an option. Though, a player who's really dedicated to running some sort of Mystic Mine strategy is going to have things like Solemn Judgment in their deck to prevent you from doing that, or they're going to play something like Sky Strikers, who basically only ever at most one monster on the field at a time, and which have a main monster called Raye who will special summon herself from the GY if one of their monsters is destroyed. So if they want, they can put up a monster for some level of defense, and to make the monster count after Dark Hole not be even, so Mystic Mine won't destroy itself at the end of the turn. You'd have to follow up by summoning just one monster, at which point you have two options: just pass turn then and there, and let MM destroy itself, but then you have a tiny board (compared to what you'd normally want to have, assuming a meta deck from before MM got so popular) and they have their entire turn to do whatever they want; or, attack over their one monster (if you even can-most decks can't summon a bunch of monsters without using monster effects, so you'd hit a wall pretty quick, and probably not be able to bring out something strong enough) and then now that you've attacked over their one monster, congrats, now you're floodgated again. Are you prepared to have this same interaction over and over throughout the duel without running out of resources? Most decks aren't, and can't, because they'd have to replace combo pieces with answers to MM strategies, meaning they can't consistently pursue their actual game plan (which the video talks about.)
Uhm. A combo deck thats using Mine just kills you if you end with 0 monsters on board.
I’d love a ygo vs mtg reading the meta decks of the current format and having the other person try and explain the playstyle
"Ward of Bones" is the magic card that inspired Mystic Mine. Although Ward of Bones costs 6 mana to cast while Mystic Mine c-c-costs ehhhh...
Your dignity xD
@@sera-ch Haha, thanks for your comment xD
For Magic players, Mystic Mine is like Ensnaring Bridge and Humility all wraped up in one card, and Mystic Mine Control decks are like Lantern Control decks.
That sounds perfect! I love this playstyle! Can't wait to get into YuGiOh now!
Oh poop they banned it. No interest in the game now.
Mystic Mine is great and it's great for the game. There is SO much Spell/Trap removal in the game. It's so easy to remove, people just want to be super greedy and get everything on a monster effect. The card is great, I hope Konami doesn't give in and keeps it at 3.
And you think that literal world level players are not aware of that? You are also aware that most players main deck 3x lightning storm? Did you seriously think just putting 3x mst will make your deck safe against mine?
Classic case of "just because there is a solution doesn't mean it's practical or even effective"
One thing that they didn't mention is that Field Barrier protects Mystic Mine from itself, meaning that the ONLY way to get rid of it is by using a lot of S/T Removal (at least 2; one for Barrier, one for MIne).
I did not realize that was a thing, but I guess it's not the first time a card has been able to be protected from its own downsides and it surely won't be the last.
As a MTG and Yugi player I will say this. Magic has plenty of cards that prevent activated effects like Mystic Mine. There is a deck known as STAX that does the exact same thing. What the biggest issue is players only wanting one card type to do everything. Monsters. Best way to pop Mine for good is let them place spell barrier. Link or Synchro to one monster and play a card to bounce it. Then they can’t play another Mine. This you win the game.
There are actually multiple things wrong with this comment.
1. no, players don't want one card type for everything. However, players want consistency. A mine deck can have over 15 searchers for mine and loads of protection, however common s/t destruction on non monsters is almost never searchable, and playing 9 generic unsearchable non monster pieces of s/t removal in your deck just so you draw enough outs quick enough means your entire deck will be a lot weaker in literally any other matchup.
2. Your suggested out is very very bad. Mine rarely plays field barrier as beat cop is a much stronger protection. Going into a bouncing extra deck monster won't work if they have no monster out at all, and if they have, that monster might have a negation effect. There are much much stronger options like Unending Nightmare, which allows to pop multiple mines. So your suggestion is much weaker than the already established staple answer.
Also 3. in mtg the card mycosynth lattice is banned for a similar thing: being able to, combined with karn the great creator, nullify all activated ability, including lands. As monsters are the resource bases in yugioh like lands are in mtg, it makes sense that a stax effect THAT strong is banned.
So youre saying i should put in a card that can bexcompletely useless in most scenarios???
Yugioh is too fast to play sich specific unsearchable bricks.
All the cards that have similar impact on the game as Mystic Mine are probably popular floodgates such as Skill Drain, Imperial Order (UGH glad its banned), Rivalry of the Warlords, Gozen Match, There can be only One, Protos (UGH glad its banned #2), and im sure there are more (older banned cards such as Vanitys Emptiness, Royal Oppression). Lets not forget turn skip Calamities is banned but its an activated monster effect! Along with S0 Utopia Zexal.
Mystic Mine is a symptom. Yugioh Meta is out of control with or without it.
Yes
Yesterday on Dueling Book against a Mine-stall deck player I successfully activated Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell. So freaking satisfying.
Sheeesh
Lol congrats
how i would tell him to imagine is, think of if this was a blue card, ya there is artifact hate but counter spells are gonna be coming out, now imagine there was like 3-4 tutors specifically for this card
Yugioh has had their power consolidated into monster effects though magic diversifies it more among card types, like null rod, Teferi Time Raveller or collecter ouphe can be back breaking in certain matchups but a card that gets that sort of value in all matchups while shutting off the ability to counter things seems insane from an MTG player perspective especially with good tutors like you said.
I had an oooold school gravity bind water deck. A Legendary Ocean, Gravity Bind, Tornado Wall, and Amphibious Bugroth MK.3, combined with just about every counter spell, trap and draw card the game offered at the time ( just after Elemental Hero's), was the bane of the whole neighborhood. Several decks were built to try to counter it, but no one really got out of The Bind. Then it became just too slow to play with all the new stuff they added so now my deck is collecting dust in my Box o' Memories.
Yeah, ban mystic mine so I can buy Sky Striker core for 20 bucks hahaha
XD
Torpor orb + ensnaring bridge in one card? Sounds real fun to play against.
Mystic Mine reminds me of Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge on Magic. More oppressive than those 2 usually, but the lock out is still there.
Against the decks that could Blood Moon you before you had a turn I think Blood Moon was worse. This is closer to Ensnaring Bridge. It's just an insurmountable wall IF you aren't prepared for it but it can be removed if you respected the card. The fact that there are no colors or anything in Yugioh means that literally any deck can out Mine if they just jam a few copies of Cosmic Cyclone or w/e but no one wants to do that
Ugh ban those
@@0hboii13 (This is from a Modern perspective) Ensnaring Bridge is basically doing nothing at this point and Blood Moon is basically the only effective way to proactively fight greedy mana bases and we just got out of an era where even Blood Moon couldn't do that well anymore. Banning either card would be a mistake.
@@DualSwordBesken my top 3 bans since 2015 have been bridge moon and chalice of the void. Those cards are unbelievable
@@0hboii13 We are long past 2015, there are far more egregious design mistakes now, like Wrenn & Six, Teferi Time Raveler, Ragavan, and the pitch elementals.
Love this stuff. I would love to see a video explaining why something like Raigeki is unlimited and sees so little play.
Because lightening storm and evenly match to an extent do what Raigeki does but are much more flexible being able to clear monsters and spells/traps while raigeki is solely monsters and is a brick against backrow heavy decks.
@@chance6754 I get why. I just think it would be helpful to new players to see why a no cost no restrictions blow up your opponents board is at 3 and almost entirely un-played.
Because it reads bait one of your opponents negates and then does nothing xd
Drytron making Herald of Ultimateness with 6 cards in hand is absolutely toxic asf, there was a time when that’s all I would face in Master Duel
Oh yeah, I was trying to have fun playing a Sacred Beast deck, then I ran into my first Drytron player. My first experience with modern YuGiOh and it was so aids, I'm glad I don't play the game anymore. Everything after DM and GX is cancer and blasphemy.
@@good8619 youre saying 5Ds is cancer? Lmao
@@gamersreactions9267 Everything past Fusion yes.
But herald going second kinda sucked vs anything remotely decent. That’s why the decks biggest hit was fixing the coin toss lmao
@@magneto1992 I play a going 2nd deck, so Drytron would always go first
Just wanna say, you're really smart for uploading videos like this to get your cardmarket out there! Keep it up!! I'm in the US, so I can't exactly use you, but I would if I could.
And this is why you main deck Ojama Trio.
Imagine play full board negate but feel salty when someone pop up mystic mine
Imagine not playing that and having to deal with mine, which is essentially a full board negate in one card.
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 well you rob another player turn to have fun time so deal with it
@@hikaruhibiki264 when do I do that? I'm not playing mine.
As a former yugioh player who quit because of how fast the games gotten, I kinda love mystic mine since it screws over the big degenerate combo decks. Its like what Yasharn does to Rakdos sac and its glorious
Except combo plays it too.
Mystic mine doesn't screw over degenerate decks, it is the ultimate degenerate deck. It is their evolution, not their counter.
Unpopular opinion: If you run a combo deck so tight that you can't afford back row removal then you deserve to get Mystic Mine'd
And another player who seems to think just adding 3-4 generic unsearchable backrow removal spells will make a deck safe against mine.
I'm not sure if it is one of those decks, but I once saw a mystic Mine player with a deck that would just proitect mystic mine at all costs MSTs and Cosmos got negated left and right
With no other win conditions I have seen (maybe there were others but the duels didnt went that long)
I'm not a meta expert or anything but it seems like a very unfun deck to play against even more so then the multi omni negate boards since I can at least attempt to play before I get negated
usually a single cauldron of old man is enough or win by deck out.
Yeah... I feel you, mystic mine decks are just hell to play against. The fact that if your deck doesn't have a maindeck out to mine it can't play, it's stupid. Mine is limiting what kind of decks get played without even countering combo since it's usually combo that plays the card. Mine is so stupid and needs to go
hello there mine enjoyer here and that sounds accurate sometimes people will surrender very early and the mine player won't get to show their win condition and protect the mine at all costs are the objective of pure mine decks.
Here are some of tge win conditions I know.
You have burn with cards like cauldron of the old man and wave motion cannon
There is exodia because of course the meme lord can be played with mine
There is deckout with the new runnick cards or something funny like sword of deepseated
And finally final countdown
@@merlin2062 Do mystic mine players go above 40 cards to get a almost certain deck out?
@@Metalseadraking That would lower the consistency since it would be harder to draw into Mine, or a card that searches it. So I don't think most people are doing that. Lists I see online are running 40 cards. They increase the chances that they can get into MM by running Terraforming, Metaverse, Demise of the Land, and generic draw power (Pots, particularly Duality and Extravagance.) And then their wincon is usually burn and Final Countdown as a plan B.
I still think Joshua's "where are the play the out Andy's now?" tweet is legendary.
I really want to see you guys with more of a full group situation discuss the card Necrovalley. One of the most powerful floodgates of all of yugioh's history and one of the oldest as well. It creeps around every format and is also one of the best side deck choices for any deck. However its also one of, if not THE hardest cards to side deck in Yugioh.
I love these kinds of videos! Though I think the discussing a card like MM with someone outside the YGO sphere is kinda-pointless. He can't really do much but nod and agree as every problem aspect of mm is revealed
Don't hate the game, hate the player.
There are even decks that are playing mine as a way to just stall for a turn or two until they draw the combo pieces they are missing. This card enables so much degeneracy that it has no business staying legal for so long
As a magic player, it's definitely not a good meta if one card is so prevalent that you have to account for it when building your own deck. It's especially bad when it's very hard to beat (looking at you Oko and Uro 😑).
That would be true however the meta Is Rotten right now, decks are playing 1/3 same handtraps because they Indeed are prevalent and you Need to build deck around them
If meta is so bland that one card that targets specific type of effects shuts it down - it's a stale and unhealthy meta
2:41 I love how you can pinpoint the exact moment he realises the full implications of Mystic Mine and why it's toxic.
This was 12 minutes of a combo player failing to realize the game is inherently and mechanically broken at this point while the mtg player just says. Why not just run removal then? The combo player continues to complain why he can’t run removal that’s widely available trying to justify for his own bad deck building.
You do realize that most combo players run 3 lightning storms too, which is tons of removal.
That's why MtG is a better game.
Inaba the white rabbit is especially mean. It attacks the person bypassing monsters and at the end of turn it returns to the hand.
People thinking that Mystic Mine can be easily played around and that it isn't a problem kinda remind me to the time when people thought that the first Chaos monsters were gimmicky and wouldn't see success because you couldn't search them. Some things just never change.
Amazing content ! Hope there will be more video ! Great work !!
Yet this card continues to run rampid in every deck. Good job Konami
I'd like to point out that Sky Striker benefits wholeheartedly from Mystic Mine, since you only really need one monster on the field at a time
Time to build a mystic mine eldlich deck with d.p.e scythe lock and teach my little brother how humility works. #Fun #OutMyBoard
Tsk, you still won't stand a chance against me when I reveal Exodia from my hand. Most often T0, T1 latest.
If he's your little brother then he probably isn't very competitive so make sure to bring your mirror forces just in case
Nah, pick Runick Mystic Mine and slowly ship away at your brother's soul until he has no will to fight left.
@@siradzki5905 What engine do you use? I prefer library to make it last as long as possible.
@@FullOedipus there is only one engine I need Kaiba, its the heart of cards.
I haven't always been playing Magic actively but there are 2 things that I remember during my time that were really annoying in standard for that rotation or never came back.
1. Miracle cards were kind of a cool idea but also a really weird focus on topdecking. I don't think a comparable mechanic was printed on the same scale since then.
2. Khans or Tarkir was one of the grindiest metas I've ever seen, to a large degree due to Siege Rhino, and that meta was one of the reasons why I stopped playing magic after enduring it for a bit. There was a lot of Abzan Midrange around and it was just a lot of "drain for 3, stalemate on the board".
Reminds me of Secret Base (SB Nation) discussion videos but for a different hobby of mine, the format doesn't feel totally the same as this feels a little more unscripted, whether or not it is scripted. I think you did a great job explaining why the card is more busted than it seems at first, really good video.
Just do a side by side comparison with IO, which is also horribly with oppressive and hated when it is strong, but is an unsearchable one-of on a trap card. Cards this strong are usually very temporary
IO got banned cause everyone cried about it. Mine has been way more toxic for years, but only now people are complaining.
@@kuyagoldlink7563 IO got banned because it is an instawin vs spell decks and solidifies going first boards. If you go 2nd and they flip IO and you play SS or play into multiple negates, you just instantly loses. Very bad card design of an old era.
Mystic Mine: Problem?
Imperial Order: Yeah, I'm banned. And you will be too.
Mine on its own also isn't the worst thing in the world. Its a pause button till you hopefully draw what you need but at the same time you're giving your opponent resources(so in this sense still balanced)... but this is on its own. Mine has turned into people shotgunning it out then just time freezing your opponent entirely which has now turned it into one of THE most toxic cards in YGO because the way its being utilized
This is also my own opinion while not having the most issues with Mine since I have a crippling hate for floodgates so 3-4 slots of my SD are ALWAYS back row hate. I haven't lost cause of Mystic Mine(yet) but it is extremely frustrating to sit there drawing card after card in such a boring match
the thing is that most good players wont wait for you to have an out, they would stall for 2 or 3 turns until they have enough resources to kill you so they removing mine themselves
@@drillygo6984 to even do that they’ll need to either match your board and pass, use their own backrow removal, or draw into another mine/field spell to remove it. So even that out they still have to draw less you have a fully loaded board. Which in this format if you can stay 3 monsters or less and have a strong board is ideal and what i try to aim for
@1KidneyWonder yes most players,
that do what I’m saying have removal for their own mine. or play a diff field spell or just set a mine over the one on field. You can start your combo with mine on field so your opponent can’t interrupt you or wipe their field and only then remove your own mine. You get to play around hand traps and negations that way. you won’t never match the number of monster on field and wait until ep that would be stupid
Interesting video idea that I think you guys would have some good input on, but its "Cards that changed how people play". What I mean by that is like cards that train players to do certain things to play around them. As an example Gorz trained players to attack with low damage monsters first and order into higher attack monsters to avoid the token summon on the first attack. Plenty of players probably still do this subconsciously. I'm sure there are lots of other cards that have had similar effects when they are popular in the meta.
I used to keep a gorz token on top of my extra deck even when I didn't have gorz.
It's funny how this card wouldn't at all be a problem for my old schoolyard (~2005) YuGiOh Deck but somehow it breaks the totally OP modern YuGiOh Decks.
Yu-Gi-Oh evolves
It would absolutely stomp your old deck too, or have you actually played against a mine combo deck with your old deck?
Or are you one of the players who think he'd have an easy matchup against mine because he has mst in his deck?
Can’t wait to play backyard Yugioh where my opponent HAS to draw the out while I sit on multiple solemns, extra copies of mystic mine. And even if he does put it for a couple of turns he cannot capitalize on it and I just draw it again lol
Oh please don't see this as critizism of the modern YuGiOh. The game has evolved and I'm not saying my deck would be good, just this one card alone doesn't seem strong in the old meta. Because removal was more in spell/trap cards and some tempo cards could bounce monsters as well, making it destroy itself.
And many of your great monsters had no effect anyway like Luster Dragon. If you played a card like that it would likely get destroyed fast by monster/spell removal and you wasted a card you could have used for a Call of the Hunted, Mirror Force, Axe of Despair or something^^
@@tankbustergames9953 that's blatantly untrue. Mystic mine also prevents you from attacking, and even cards like wall of revealing light was semi limited back then, now imagine it without lp cost and searchable. Also decks back then could run much much less s/t removal due to the banlist, and with breaker negated by mine that would leave you with just 3-4 outs. To beat a modern mine deck you'd need to draw about 3 outs during your first 3-5 turns as mine usually comes protected extremely and with backup mines in hand. So no, your oldschool deck would lose without even managing to deal a single damage or destroy a single card.
As he said, as a Pendulum player I'm always torn as to whether or not it's a necessary evil. Going second it's awesome against certain boards, you turn off their board, make Mighty Master and pop their whole board + your own Mine. Like I always thought that was cool, mostly cause I'm the one doing it lol. But when people are actually saying draw + go over and over...
Jeff Leonard is a hero.
Mystic Mine is the modern Swords of Revealing Light.
another thing you forgot to mention - if you think you can find a way around it by never summoning a monster at all until you have game - NOPE! Mystic mine players have monsters that can summon to your field just so they can proactively activate mystic mine.
Kaiju + lava golem, and all that.
Yup, there's Ojama Duo and Ojama Trio, Knightmare Corruptor Iblee, Silent Wobbly, and probably a few others I'm not thinking of
@@drewbabe black rose dragon decks also, since they can put tokens on the opponents field.
It's the fact that you can't activate Monster Effects ANYWHERE that makes Mystic Mine so powerful. For comparison, a card like Skill Drain costs 1000 Life Points and negates Monster Effects on FIELD only. And Skill Drain is already arguably one of the best floodgates in the game.
Yea, at least you can out it with accesscode, foxy in gy, eldlich eff in hand as example. Mine is just dumb
But you activate skill drain as a chain so your opponent waste resources.
Still , Imperial order Is much stronger than Mystic mine
I know everybody is gonna hate me for saying this, playing De-Spell is one way to get rid of Mystic Mine. ;) LOL!!!
I want more of this, next time some Hs or yugi player who doesnt do mtg and let him figur out why some weird good (but not obviously good) mtg csrd is insane... Amazing format
Literally just play vanilla monsters and add some equip spells negating spell/trap effects. Run lots of traps and tribute them off for Vision Hero Witch Raider to nuke your opponents backrow. I think Mine does need to be reduced to 1 but there’s solutions to this card. Get creative. Yes it’s a brain dead card but the same could be said for a solitaire like board that your opponent makes.
"Ruin your deck for every matchup except Mine" is a pretty smooth-brain take tbh. "You didn't make top cut, but at least you showed those dirty floodgate users what's up!" lol.
@@sethkrueger9294 side it out. You don’t have to have a whole deck centered around it. It’s not gonna be perfect. That’s where mine at 1 would balance it out. It’s not the most ideal strat but it’s one of many
@@CptnCobblestone you only have 15 side deck slots and need cards that deal with stuff other tan mine and dedicated going first/second cards.
You'd get slaughtered at any major event playing a deck like this lmao
@@CptnCobblestone Also at a big event, high consistency of your deck is very important, as you need to win a huge amount of duels, and too much backrow hate reduces your engines consistency.
I love the crossover episodes! as a mtg player it's a relatable way to learn a little about yu gi oh