Because Asians are treated with NEGATIVE affirmative actions in the US - something which Black people hate when they use ‘fairness’ as a veil to advance their agenda.
@@ahmedeensaeed991 they've just been _un-asian'd_ and thrown under the same bus as whites now. too smart to not make the others, non-Eastern asians and whites, look bad. if you're happy to have retrads as uni professors, doctors, judges, nurses, teachers or whatever just because of the tint of their skin, i hope you'll be sending your kids to them and will have them around you when in the ER as a patient. meritocracy is the only way out. a real one, not an _affirmative action'd_ one where your only merit is having the "right" skin colour. if you want a 30 years reality check of what that kind of merit has done to the only functionning country in Africa (with Libya) after 1982, have a deep dive in what happened and is still happening in South Africa, especially in the energy sector and planning and to the black population living standards now that they cannot objectively say _it's whitey fault_ (but they still say it though). i won't even mention Zimbabwe as marxism had as much to do as the skintone of the new leadership of the country.
@@ahmedeensaeed991 Well… They come out of it feeling unflattered. Unfortunately the people who would most benefit from understanding it, probably need help with that. However, the exact opposite of this data’s recommendations being now the norm; the opportunity to avail society of this wisdom may have passed. IQ doesn’t indicate human worth. I think we can all agree, super villains are usually high IQ. I personally think Downs Syndrome people are some of the best company available. High IQ doesn’t indicate innovation - oddly…. The Brits, Dutch and Germans are no smarter than the Danes, Swedes or Norwegians, but they seem to have vastly more of the innovative gene. I hope they keep refining the test.
This idea that black people, the whole of black people, every single black person across the globe, are somehow less intelligent as a collective is not something that is new to us. 'Understanding' this type of insidious racism will never benefit us, nor will it benefit the mediocre people who create and adopt this prejudiced RELIGION. What's odd about this whole concept is that a simple Google search would inform you that black people had governments, kingdoms, cultures, and invented things prior to the arrival of the European. I'm so happy that most of us have not and never will come across this channel.
I am a black woman. Just let me get that out of the way. It seems quite apparent to me that there is no sensible reason that human beings would evolve and adapt to their various environments physically, but have that evolution and adaptation stop at the neck. It strikes me as obvious that some particular intellectual abilities would have been more beneficial in some environments and less so in others. The evolutionary pressure on the populations living in the places where analytical thinking was a huge advantage, for instance, would have that pressure result in heritable changes to cognition that improved analytical thinking. Long term memory may have been more advantageous in a different environment and may have become a prominent trait for people groups living there. This seems both obvious and not particularly controversial. As those people's descendents began to live in societies that were designed around the strengths of the people who set them up, they will naturally find it difficult to compete with the population that has created the culture based on their own adaptations. My point, in brief, is culture is downstream from genetics which is downstream from the evolutionary pressures of environment. You can hardly expect a person whonis optimized to one environment (and therefore one set of heritable characteristics and therefore cultural expectations) to thrive when plopped down in a completely different environment surrounded by people who have created a culture optimized to ensure their characteristics are utilized to best advantage. I think the data on fluid intelligence vs crystallized intelligence and distance from the equator as well as the invention of writing in a society is quite illustrative of this. There is some solid research showing cultures without writing (historically) have far higher levels of crystallized intelligence and greater capacity for detailed long term memory (crucial if you communicate important information over generations via oral history) vs cultures that developed writing systems (thereby offloading some need for crystallized intelligence) who's fluid intelligence is higher (crucial when you live in an environment that frequently shifts or has strong differences seasonally)
race realism is the correct position , period , as usual Coleman have nothing to contribute to this subject , after half an hour of unassailable arguments , he could only venture : " and what about lead paint ? ". LEAD PAINT , seriously , that has to be the stupidest cope I've ever heard in my whole life . The truth is Race and IQ are the most established field of all the humanities : it's under constant scrutiny , these are the most repeated experiments of all science ! this science has been settled for decades Coleman , like all black intellectuals ( even Thomas Sowell ), simply refuses to see it . they just can' t DEAL with it . That's the real reason why there is NO real black intellectuals :if you can't be honest with yourself , when you look in the mirror , you can't think at all . White people are not racist , they are just trying to escape black violence and criminality , which has been out of control since the 60's . Real racists , like neo nazis .. are only a few hundreds of people out of 300 millions of whites ! On the other hand 99% of blacks are total racists they have a burning hatred for whites , asians ..and even latinos , that blind , white knuckling , seething rage I can see everywhere .
As long as you invest so much energy in “excuse making” - poorly disguised as reasoning, the de-evolution of blacks will only worsen. What works is not a mystery or pertains to the proximity to the equator. Blacks have come farther and further, considering the starting line, than any group of folks in the history of America. Why we are going backwards is due mostly to folks like you, with all this pseudo science nonsense! Simple, in successful cultures a baby-mama is known as a wife. A hustle, is known as a job. Your status is not determined by the type of car you have or the label attached to your handbag. And street knowledge is prized only if you intend to spend a larger portion of your life behind bars, instead of being on the streets.
@@murdockhancock Of course. It would require different people than we currently have in politics to have these kinds of conversations. Which is why I’m not holding my breath
First let me say thank you for this podcast, I researched this issue a few months back and was immediately struck by the fact Google was censoring my results assuming my intent was racist, returning only articles on why these "empirical" facts( as referred to by both) were wrong and from a by gone era of racists. Charles Murray was included. After much effort I was able to track down one poorly sourced article on the race IQ gap that failed to discuss the issue with any nuance and forced me to continue looking into this matter over multiple days to reach any kind of scientific conclusion. My point being Coleman makes good points about a fear of the laymen interpretation, however Charles argument for nearing a tipping point of no return is sadly exemplified by the Google censorship.
@@andrewjoyner4133 did some research on duck duck go, Reddit etc and what I concluded is that Murray has really no scientific basis for his claims. And there isn’t really any proof I can find that supports his hypothesis. The general scientific consensus is that he’s incorrect.
@@jjj-bl8yf It's been a while since I watched this interview but as far as I can tell, at least in my opinion if there is any difference there it is pretty much cultural or environmental rather than something inherent about black or white people that dictates intelligence.
@@jjj-bl8yf there were a couple scholarly disputes about his methodology, but I never heard anyone credible broadly dispute his findings. Try Google Scholar. Also I think Lexfridman did a podcast about this a while ago.
Google is smugly certain about their take on the world. Hence, they're quite happy to enforce that opinion by way of controlling the thoughts of others.
Coleman, this conversation took a lot of courage and you handled it expertly and with immense empathy. Great job, brother. I don’t comment much on UA-cam unless something moves me. I’m so grateful to have discovered this conversation. Having difficult conversations with fellow humans will allow our species to move forward from dogma and ignorance. Great job!
@@Samsgarden I believe Coleman did demonstrate courage in this conversation. But even so, regardless of this conversation, Coleman had already shown me that he possesses a fearlessness few other public intellectuals have. I have little doubt that I am listening to an honest opinion when I listen to Coleman.......And Kemar B., I 100% agree! Great job Coleman!
@@Samsgarden I give conservative Blacks, and any willing to buck the Narrative even slightly to the Right, props for courage. They're treated as race traitors by many Blacks.
Why does every intellectual conversation need to be prefaced with ‘courage’ or any other similar associations? Guarantee you that the other side of the argument (the woke) have the same thought process when they praise their own heroes. Speak your mind and put your chips on the table. No heroism required.
I’d be interested to know what percentage of black, Latino, Asian, etc people object to marrying outside their race. I would hypotheses a small percentage of all races have that belief and that is more a human thing than a “white” thing.
Yes! Coleman didn’t back up the claim that believing in an IQ gap leads to real racism. He showed a correlation, but not causation. Also, I totally applaud him for doing this interview
So true. Indians still try not to have interracial marriage. The other question coleman doesn't pry into is why that stat has any weight in this discussion. There are many other factors on why not to intermarry.... just look at Muhammed Alis old interviews on the topic.
@@thinksimon Exactly. Coleman has interviewed many types on his channel, and almost never disagrees. And when he does disagree, it's in the most generous of ways.
@@UKtoUSABrit _Heavy speculation_ I _assume_ because this all feels wrong to Coleman. So he adds the trigger warning. I think we're watching a bright young person get slowly red pilled while doing his level best to maintain integrity and curiosity. Again _heavy speculation_
This conversation requires both very high levels of maturity and strong moral principles. Which is why our society is definitely not ready to have this conversation in the public.
But there are loads of other conversations in public that society botches as well. And not having it in public doesn't mean that people won't have it in private.
The athletic disparity is far more obvious and brutal than the disparity in cognitive abilities. At least from what I see in terms of athletics, especailly sprinting.
This is by far the most thoughtful interview I've ever seen of Charles Murray. I think Coleman is worth listening to on any subject he chooses to speak on.
He whipped my head around like a slap, and changed my mind on 'mainstreaming' by _reminding_ me,; being color blind is more than just being willing to see positive traits. Seeing past some traits is just as fair, (IN BOTH "DIRECTIONS") and may be the only thing that will finally equalize us socially. We have to all forgive each other for being Human!
Charles is basically the same in all his video appearances. Coleman? I can't honestly say, but he doesn't come off as really grasping the data here. He also seems a tad slow. Is that normal for him?
Why do people make this a black\white issue like other races don't exist. Also all the subgroups within races which are different from one another. Really makes you think how pointless this black and white no nuance thinking, pun intended, really is.
People are still obsessed with dichotomies. It's an unfortunate tendency of rationalism when it is not self-aware. I'm not religious, but so many people today make me want to say, "y'all mfers need Buddha"
I understand both perspectives. But Murray is right, people’s hurt feelings aren’t going to matter so much in the context of out of control tyrannical government ruthlessly enforcing arbitrary power. Which is where we are headed in the long term.
Yes, Thomas Sowell has been speaking correctly on these issues for years, and he’s been completely ignored by the media, academia and anyone else who matters. When was the last time Thomas Sowell appeared on CNN? Or had his views promoted by the NY Times?
@@cooldudecs Because it is. Making it racial is triggering and controversial which generates that... you know the thing... Black Americans pretty much stymie and separate themselves. Nigerians and Jamaicans, etc prepare themselves to acclimate into our society.
i think this was a deliberate choice by Sowell. i recall him saying once that he stopped appearing on television because there was no correlation between what he said what the media said he said.
There is a video on UA-cam where Steven Pinker, a soft-spoken liberal, goes into scientific detail explaining how the Ashkenazi Jews evolved into a human demographic that has a greater level of the traditional form of intelligence when compared to any other demographic. There is surprising little protest concerning such a statement yet other, similar statements (and the accompanying explanations) involving other demographics are ridiculed as racist or pseudoscience. We live in a culture where certain ideas, true or not, are not acceptable.
Also, no one took issue with Jordan Peterson arguing that "Jewish people are over-represented in positions of competence and authority because, as a group, they have a higher mean IQ. " Someone should take his blog post 'On the so-called “Jewish Question”', and swap Jews with Whites and Whites with Blacks and watch the uproar.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn If Critical Race Theory would produce a net negative, then it should be dismissed. The same would be true with examining differences in I.Q. by race. If the publicizing such possibilities would create a net negative, then that is probably the one overriding reason to not pursue those possibilities.
@@WhtetstoneFlunky You're moving the goalpost, you hypocrite. First it was "true or not", now its "whether it will be a net negative". Rules for thee minority, not white me. This is the duplicitous nature of your white opponents. They want to teach that blacks are intellectually inferior, but when it comes to CRT condemning that very racism, now it's "divisive". You can't make this up. This is how white supremacy works.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn In my second post I used the term "whether it will be a net negative". That is because you brought into the discussion Critical Race Theory, and the discussion changed to a comparison of two different concepts. So again, whether ideas are true or not, the possibility of those concepts doing harm should be a strong consideration whether the population should be subjected to those concepts.
It’s going to be difficult no matter what we do. What Murray is saying is, do we want it to be difficult because we’re living a lie, or because we’re facing truth?
I'm a big Charles Murray fan and I think this was the absolute best conversation you could have had. I'm not all the way done yet, but there was nothing you said so far that was off the mark. I also saw your perspective and felt your frustration. I agree with you. There is no amount of effort that is too much for increasing cognitive health. There are so many downstream negative outcomes and the benefits of working on them are almost immeasurable. I feel this is worth working full time on for the rest of our lives.
That both made some fair points and they also both agreed on some points. The difference I see is less race based and more age based. The younger man is more idealistic. That's how young people tend to be. The older man is more realistic. The older you get, the more you tend to accept things for how they are and not how you hoped they were. You concern yourself with the things you can change and accept that there are some things you can't change.
The problem they have, is that both have the same kind of education, which means the same metaphysics; I am not a consciousness. Thus I am Being-in-the-World and so I am determined by the Horizon of my existence.
@@ContextReallyMatters I cane to a similar conclusion. Coleman has a hopeful ''it is getting better'' optimism. Charles' attitude is ''it's not getting better, so we need an honest discussion to rectify the problem''.
The fact that we’re looking for racial disparities is the reason we need to study the cause otherwise the attempt to achieve equity in an egalitarian state will necessarily result in laws and policies that are racially discriminatory. In other words, because we’re obsessed with disparities of outcome as opposed to equal treatment, we will only find solution that discriminate. As an example. If I told you there was a law that resulted in 95% disproportionate accusations and conviction of a specific demographic many people today would say that law is discriminatory against the affected group. If I told you those laws were rape and sexual assault and it vastly disproportionately affects men vs women suddenly the concern over the disparity evaporates. Its not a sexist law. It’s the intention or motivation for the law that matter. The outcome disparity is not discriminatory.
Except we didn’t start as an egalitarian state. We live in a state that created disparities through de facto and dejure discrimination against black people. But lots of ppl just want to ignore the 250 years of discrimination because they will have to give back the unfair advantage they stole from other people.
@@annettewilcox5413 there’s zero evidence the disparities are due to historic discrimination. Notice that first generation black African immigrants out perform whites.
@@dougd1573 There is overwhelming evidence. #1 majority of first gen Africans are the elite in their countries. Poor Africans cannot afford the cost to emigrate to US. #2 And I’ll let you think about what the difference is between the experience of first generation Africans and ADOS.(American Descendants of Slavery)
@@annettewilcox5413 there is not. A little factoid; the majority of poor people who win the lottery end up filing for bankruptcy. It has nothing to do with intergenerational wealth and everything to do with what each of us do as an individual.
@@dougd1573 That’s the lie the US likes to perpetrate. The US created a white middle class from working class laborer by giving them massive of amounts of benefits that were legally denied to black people. Spanking new suburbs, (ie Levittown), FHA Mortgages, tax breaks, highways to the jobs, equity to pass down to their kids, etc etc If the government (and the populace) didn’t think it would create 2 different outcomes they would hv offered same programs to blacks. They knew denying these programs to blks would leave them on the bottom of totem pole. www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631494538/ref=asc_df_1631494538/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312029822325&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4494755561492955351&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004425&hvtargid=pla-466313351218&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316180319&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312029822325&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4494755561492955351&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004425&hvtargid=pla-466313351218
The options seem to be: A) Tell kids that it’s no one’s fault, groups of people have different IQs, and that means some individual people get to have careers others can’t. The career is dependent on you, not on the group. B) Tells kids that we can’t figure out why or how, but that each of us is playing a role in a system that discriminates against some groups because of how they look. As a result, you may have to do more or less to get a particular career, and that’s based on the magnitude of your moral crimes and the moral crimes you fall victim to. C) We tell kids that you work hard, and you try to be the best you can be, and sometimes life isn’t fair. You’ll have successes and failures, and sometimes that will be your own doing, or someone else wronging you, or just by chance. But you have to do the best you can, and resenting other people will only create misery for yourself.
Another good thing about C is that it is true for all humans. There is no group that doesn't have a percentage of those with substantial cognitive challenge.
Or you could accept that IQ is not a static(or even tangible) thing and is heavily affected by the material conditions one lives in and adjust society accordingly. People would have less racial resentment if their lives were actually improved and didn't hinge on chance. There shouldn't be a job that you aren't able to support your family on.
Race is real, it is genetic, and different races have different cognitive abilities. It just is what it is. Doesn’t mean any race is better or worse, it just is
Charles Linnaeus was interested in order and boundaries in nature. For mankind, he believed there was a single human species. He did not use the term “race”, but divided humans into four “varieties” by continent and skin color: European (white), African (black), Asian (yellow) and American (red). He was therefore no “biological racist”; nor could he have predicted that biological racists would conflate his phyletic methods into institutional mistreatment and assert some pseudo-science as justification. Even by his own crude definitions, he could not reconcile his categories across any one of the continents. Furthermore, the 1990-2003 Human Genome project debunked any scientific basis for race. And it certainly is NOT genetic. If you still insist you are correct, then please share any credentials you have to James Watson--who co-discovered the structure of DNA; Francis Collins; or John Sulston, then the director at the Wellcome Sanger Institute, as well as the 20 separate universities and research centers across the United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Japan and China who participated.
@@MisterWeave-tm4oc It is not a fact at all. The Human Genome Project disproved race as a construct at any level of science and was led by one of the men who discovered the actual structure of DNA. Race is social, pseudo-science pap that misappropriated the work of Charles Linneas to legitimize the mistreatment of human beings for global exploitation. You might as well say that the Romans were genetically superior to the Germanic peoples because they understood engineering when the Germanic tribes did not. Neither you nor Charles Murray can adduce any credible science to support your positions. None.
Fantastic conversation! Congrats to both Coleman and Charles. Both are intelligent, enlightening, articulate, respectful of the others thoughts and allowing them to speak. No drama, no gaslighting, no interruptions or voice raising. A true pleasure to listen to no matter what side of the fence you are on. Keep up the good interviews Coleman!
@@georgeboehringer5530They’re both stupid. Charles Murray is a tired old bigot, and Coleman is a self hating black man who platforms racists and other odious individuals on his show due to his desire to come across as a balanced, self aware and intelligent individual. This obsession of his stems from low self esteem regarding his place in the world. You rarely if ever see people that are involved in and ingratiated with their communities, entertain people that dislike them.
My brother couldn't get an internship, because, in the exact words of the hiring manager, "Why would I give an opportunity to a white male?" I had a friend who is as dumb as a rock (still love him) and got a full ride scholarship for being half Hispanic while I had to work many hours to pay for my Physics degree at the same university. He was the son of an immigrant who had enough money while my family was jobless and living off of church welfare. I've seen the inner workings of tech events where racial minorities were given advantages in every single aspect, even down to the raffle ticket system for prizes. I was told (for some reason) that I was almost passed up on a job offer because a Hispanic person applied right when they were about to send it. Luckily, he sucked. It sounds like I live somewhere like California, right? Nope. Utah. 91% white, 1% black. Utah hasn't voted Democrat in like 50 years. Yet CRT is here. The liberals are teaching it to the children here in schools. It is cancer. It doesn't even apply to Utah. There were only ever like 5 slaves here in the entire history of Utah, and they were freed pretty quickly. 50% of my ancestors were in Northern Europe before the 1920's. The rest were Mormon refugees from Missouri, where it was legal to kill a Mormon, and before that most of them had recently sold everything they had in England to come to America when they converted to Mormonism. Something like 2% of my ancestors had been in America before that, and there is no record of them owning slaves, probably because they were from the North and only a tiny minority of people were ever slaveowners anyway. You cannot commit injustices against people without stirring up a lot of anger. Right now, whites and Asians are starting to become angry. I am sensing a strong undercurrent of rage boiling up around me. It can and will get a lot worse if we don't start taking the CRT issues DEADLY seriously. I will never forget the truth that all people should be treated as individuals. It is smart and moral. But I can't speak for other people in my state. All of this is building up to something. Something unspeakably terrible.
Reading my comment makes it sound like something terrible is immanent. But it's more like a slow boil. I predict major conflict in 8-20 years at this rate.
@@m3po22 I hope it is sooner and we get all these wokeists CRTs expelled from the country. Latino here, I will fight alongside you because this begins with you but will continue with me
At first I was like: I completely agree with Murray Then I was like: no I completely agree with Coleman then I was like: Okay Murrays counter argument was spot on, he is the one I agree with But then I was like: But Colemans counter-counter argument was exceptional insightful And so It went on for a couple more times. A wild roller-coaster ride of changing my mind.. Very good interview indeed.
@@OQIF87NREU, I'm wondering if he has a "team" now where someone is making the decisions to present his videos with these thumbnails. Honestly, when I saw it, I immediately thought, wtf? I didn't expect to see something like that, and as such, it wasn't something I was disappointed in seeing, but now that I've seen it, I hope he gives it up. It may or may not be a winning strategy for getting people to click on his videos (I assume it's actually a winning strategy) but nonetheless, I hope he doesn't continue with it.
Two problems with Coleman's case. [1] Coleman is very worried about "schoolyard" insults regarding race and intelligence, but doesn't appear to be very worried about "schoolyard" insults about how White people are racist or evil. [2] He is very worried about discussing race and intelligence because it encourages stereotyping, but seems to admit that we need to talk about race and violence, even though this also encourages stereotyping. Historically, Whites viewed Blacks as both dumb and scary. Why is one good but not the other?
I can understand Coleman's position. He is a principled if somewhat reactionary MLK style liberal. I think Murray is speaking from a position that we need an immediate fix to stop the terrible trajectory of society in its tracks before it is too late whereas Coleman is concerned with the very same underlying problems in society but thinks fighting destructive ideas with other possibly destructive ideas is going to make society implode even faster. I'm not sure whose position is right because we don't really know how society might adapt should Murray's concerns find mainstream acceptance. That said, it isn't a question of whether white kids being told they are evil in school is worse for Coleman than black kids being told in school that they're dumb. I don't think he is okay with any of it.
@@munkstermann Murray isn’t saying anything other than what he found in his research. He admits this when he said he doesn’t have answers to the problem. He found a problem, and has published it. People don’t like the results and that’s fine. But ignoring this problem will never solve it. And coming up with solutions like “ending racism”will never work.
@@weignerleigner3037 Did you watch the interview? Murray conducted his research precisely because he's trying to jolt the USA back from a point of no return. He went as far as to say he avoided the subject in the intermediate years since the bell curve because he didn't think it would be helpful to discuss racial IQ differences when society was in a more or less functional state in spite of it all. Murray is a sociologist with a desire to positively affect society. He isn't some assburger doing research for research's sake.
Precisely. If IQ differences are "race science", CRT and "white privilege" are "race science". Another accepted truth should be that codified racism and material discrimination of any kind is much worse than any social, abstract form of racism. Which should bring the conversation to "affirmative action" and "diversity quotas". Which are the only form of actual racism existing in America currently. Was blacks being called naggers and looked down upon worse than slavery or segregation? Of course not.
Coleman is arguing for elites to protect the masses from conversations that only elites can be trusted to have. Murray is arguing that the masses need light to find the way.
@Paranoia Agent 1. Coleman knows his audience can handle the discussion. 2. Coleman knows the size of his audience. This discussion between Coleman and Charles has limited reach and effect on broader society
@@RichardEnglanderEpigenetics, prenatal care, early childhood engagement, nutrition and culture are vastly more important in determining capacity to achieve academically, your will to be productive, your proclivity to be violent and your financial outcomes. For example the Danish, Swedish, British, Candadian, American and Dutch long distance records are all held by ethnic somalis athletes but Kenya is the most successful followed by Ethiopia with somalia nowhere to be seen... that's because in Somalia athletics is held in high regard Sir Mo Farah had multiple Gold medals but in his tribe the ICJ judge is more esteemed not to mention the lack of facilities training ect compare this to Kenya where Nike has entire compound or ethiopia where the govt subsidies training facilities... Haile Gebrselassie is exalted as almost mythical figure in Ethiopia in Somalia they deify billionaire like Abdirashid Duale and Ahmed mohamed yusuf... so despite having the genetic predisposition for biomechanical efficency they don't have a culture/environment that is conducive hence the disparity in outcome with their regional neighbours
Where's your evidence for your assertion? Black Africans dominate pretty much every sport and athletic event in existence. Do you think is mostly environmental?@@skp8748
I think Coleman is showing some intellectual cowardice here. He spends most of his time saying he is not an expert, doesn’t know the details, hasn’t read the literature, etc but he then completely disagrees with the researched expert Charles Murray who has specialized in this area for decades. He then starts speculating as to what other possibilities might account for differences between races, but because he has already established that he is in a position of ignorance he is able to make speculations that are already proven false. Coleman also wants to move quickly into the so called center of the bulls eye, and cites critics of Murray that he says he has read, having not read Murray. Coleman both occupies a position of ignorance that allows him to side step associating with Murray, but he also claims to know enough to both disagree with Murray and agree with his critics. Coleman wishes to avoid the elephant in the room, trace differences and IQ. There is one valuable conversation here, and that is Murray input.
Coleman says and does a lot of things that make no sense. I still give him respect cus he is honest and I think he’s a good dude. But his ideas don’t make sense a lot of the time. Him voting for Biden made no sense to me.
No, Murray just suits your agenda, everyone has one , this is nothing new for black people , it justified slavery , Jim Crow etc, he didn’t have to engage with this guy at all , it’s pointless.
This was clearly difficult. After the excessive preamble, Coleman seemed to have no argument to articulate, no substance to any disagreements with Murray (including those of other names mentioned), and seemed instead to be reaching out and grasping for relief rather than making a case.
Im a teacher 7 to 10 grade. Here in Norway. Black kids subsahara africans, born and rased in Norway, with 100% the same chanses as Asians and other races . Many of them finds it very hard to finish the 8 grade. Actually the majority.
Here in the USA we just find excuses to let them pass on without being prepared for the higher grades. And then we give the blacks who have gone through that preferential admissions to universities despite the fact that they were never really able to keep up for most of their time in school.
It's not true that Thomas Sowell hasn't used arguments similar to those of Charles Murray, he does so in Intellectuals and race, even explains the evolutionary process by which genetic differences occur between groups
he's also expressed that at times its changed, like with the Jewish community. Now I don't know if that happened because of immigration patterns or not, I do not know.
Thomas Sowell also points out how iqs of groups have changed significantly, and also points to highly successful black schools like Dunbar, so I don't think he would agree with Murray's view. The point Coleman was making here is presentation is important to a mass audience
The Truth should ALWAYS be mainstreamed. If that’s disastrous, so be it. It means we need to discuss it MORE. It is up to society to understand and accept Truth.
Keeping this conversation out of the mainstream won't stop people from saying and believing the harmful things that Coleman Hughes cited in this interview. Black American children could still come across the same thoughts and ideas anyway. Mainstreaming this conversation will put everything on the table. It's much better to face uncomfortable things in the face than to have people secretly having those conversations.
@@Musicienne-DAB1995Um, he is agreeing with you. And both of you are using the term, mainstreaming, problematically when there are much better, less confusing, terms to use. Also mainstreaming is the term used to designate putting challenged learners in with the less challenged students based on the assumption that these kids would help each other succeed. This is the disaster of NCLB policy that Murray refers to. Special needs kids need education that is geared specifically to their educational need. And the kids in the "mainstream" (the regular classroom) need to be challenged and motivated at a level that meets _their_ intellectual needs too.
@@santacruzman Yeah, you're right. I know that the original woman was agreeing with me, and I didn't word my answer very well. But yes, I agree with what you're saying.
And it made zero sense. There's nothing negative about people accepting IQ differences between groups just like there's IQ differences between individuals. However refusing to accept this obviously would lead to negative consequences.
Well, every rule has an exception. He thinks that it'll be net loss due to the emotional nature of the topic in a society. More importantly he is focused on the role of culture that engenders that racial iq gap. It's not like he doesn't want to address the issue. I believe he is right in his position. Charles is right in that those policies will not affect 'what is' and you need some way of handling the current situation.
@@koroglurustem1722 I think Coleman's perspective needs to be also compared against the backdrop where our current reality has 5x as many White parents having this sort of conversation with their children trying to explain to them that they aren't evil or racist regardless of what their teachers told them. When Coleman says his nightmare is the parent needing to have this conversation or the Black child being made fun of, he's showing his own personal connection to the issue and his own distance from the reality that everyday White parents and children face *right* *now* under the current CRT/systemic racism regime.
@@RyanOManchester then the solution is pushing back the CRT bullshit without becoming angry towards blacks. If individuals can preserve such a distinction nation can navigate this catastrophe. CRT accusations are very toxic and we have to reject it.
I read The Bell Curve when I was in college in the 90s. Back then, it was already writing on the wall. Society tried so hard to change things between the 60s and 90s. And now we're 30 years on, and little has changed.
@@jimmynegatron4619 By factual statistics, all things like income, unemployment, prison reform did improve under Trump, which is why he got ~1 in 5 black voters for the 2020 election(18%) but democrats control all our media, big tech, etc which before day 1 of Trump's term were spreading lies and propaganda to increase division and add fuel to the fire of race relations. If our media wasn't so corrupt along with the constant lies of democratic politicians I do believe things would have dramatically improved. Trump was way too crass for what people were used to in a politician, but he was no racist and all the smear attempts on him were very effective in convincing liberals he was.
To sum it up, Charles is saying if racism doesn't explain the disparities in America then we have to put forth explanations that are divisive and tough to hear (e.g. today's crime and IQ reality are better explanations than racism), and Coleman is saying that there is a practical difference between even the tough explanations where emphasizing culture over innate IQ can accomplish the same goal while providing hope for change and putting more control in the hands of people.
Sorry, Charles, but what changed in the 60s was not "we have reached the peak of our ability to improve conditions", it was the advent of welfare and the war on drugs. Just as the Prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s fostered a huge criminal enterprise, drug prohibition created the criminal crime wave that followed. And welfare broke up families, penalizing them for having 2 wage earners, or at least two potential wage earners in the household. Over the next 20 years we created a generation of kids who had grown up in single-parent, no employment, environments, who's schools were terrorized by drug gangs, and kids were told to join up or suffer the consequences. Talented teachers didn't want to work in that environment. end the war on drugs, institute universal school vouchers, change welfare rules to limit time and mandate work.
To answer Coleman's question about what good can come of talking about race and IQ, I'd say that we must at least be allowed to note the difference in response to complaints that STEM faculties aren't 13% black, that tech companies don't have 13% black coders, etc. When it comes to roles that require high cognitive ability, we cannot force the demographics to match those of the nation without degrading the quality of the institutions. Based on the distributions, for every 1000 white physics professors, it's more reasonable to expect 5* black physics professors than it is to expect 200. We should do our best to judge the merits of the individual applicant, not try to meet quotas based on a lack of understanding of the tails of distributions. While less extreme, the difference will also be seen in roles that require 1 or 2 standard deviations above the mean for intelligence. The answer may not be racism. It may be the abilities of the applicants. *: Based on an assumption of 3 standard deviations above the mean for intelligence, which would be closer to 4 for black Americans if we assume equal variance, and the fact that there are about 5 times as many whites as blacks in the country.
Agree, you have to understand the data in order to re-tune the "system" to make it more efficient and productive. The data is hidden, so the system is broken.
@tony thomas Yeah, it's certainly gameable by importing the best of Africa, but I don't think that will lessen the complaints. The demand will shift to at least 13% American-born black employees.
Exactly! This is what the people pushing for these equality quota miss out on, at first it seems logical that all traits are distributed equally within any given group of people and therefor everything should have some kind of equal distribution which reflects the "racial" make-up of that group. But that point only holds true if such distribution is fair and logical to begin with. IQ is exactly one of the factors which at least predicts that such distribution is unlikely.
What's missing is the context of all the other biological racial differences. When you see the list, including different gestation periods, brain size, and infant development rates, then cognitive differences aren't too surprising. Why would anyone expect geographically separated subspecies to have identical traits? No one applies this logic elsewhere in biology.
It's because some people already have an outcome that they're trying to prove with supporting data, not the other way around. They're afraid that the current system (and their worldview) would collapse if they're proven wrong. Examples of such cases are everywhere in the history of scientific research.
This is perfect! Coleman and Murray are close enough intellectually so that they don't talk past each other, but far enough in generation and temperament that they bring a different, yet compelling prospective on the same issue. I wish they made a series of talks, or even wrote a book together.
You're joking, right? Coleman talked past Murray many times. He doesn't have the courage to follow the truth on this topic. Despite the comments section giving their usual standard applause lines for his "bravery" he showed none here.
Excellent podcast. The first step toward solving a problem is to correctly understand it. Seeing things as they truly are is an essential element of acquiring a correct understanding of a problem. Interpreting the implication of raw data in biased deference to "equity of outcome" solutions is illogical on its face. I marvel at displays of innate intelligence that far exceed my own. I listen to podcasts such as this and take pleasure in the fact that Coleman Hughes and his controversial guest challenge my own misconceptions about race and intelligence. The willingness to calmly interrogate hot button topics with an unflinching desire to face uncomfortable truths is a mark of exceptional character; and the ability to lucidly articulate those truths is singularly noteworthy. Being humbled by truth well spoken is a privilege.
Hello Coleman. Enjoyed the podcast. A few points I would like to share with regards of your argument that it’s best to not tell about IQ in the mainstream because that may result in a worse result than what Charles fears: I am second generation North Korean and half Irish. My mom was Korean and my father Irish. People can tell I am half Asian. I go to school in an area that is heavily Korean with children Korean immigrants who came here with little and have kids to get a better education. Over the years I have noticed a lot of prejudice and animosity towards Asians like me. I took a few courses based in the social sciences. I took some critical race subjects. I came across this stuff because I and other Asian students were essentially being told that we were “white adjacent.” That we essentially benefit from a system of white supremacy. This was the answer given to me when I asked why poor Asians do better than many whites if the system is systemically racist. I felt like I was shut down from giving my opinions after this many times. It become so toxic of an environment I had to leave some of those courses and study other things for extra credits. It really felt like the teachers didn’t want me to ask questions and they would put my questions last, second to the white students to hear “less white perspectives.” If and when whites become enough of a minority, assuming your argument doesn’t work in convincing people of color and wealthy white elite to judge people as individuals and that it’s culture that causes these differences in outcomes, then what will happen? What will likely happen is other groups who are not dark skinned will also be blamed for doing better in academia and employment. Asian, Jews, etc. So at what point will it stop? I fear this is why, as hard as it may be to admit, that we have to speak about IQ differences as Charles says because if it doesn’t go mainstream, the groups blaming whites as being racist won’t stop there. And that’s assuming it doesn’t end in physical violent uprising by either groups. It won’t stop with whites and they will be blaming Asians and Jews next because, why? We not only outperform black and many Hispanic people in academics and employment and income, but we also outperform many whites on average as well. So they will then have even more of a reason to go after us. So should I now have to suffer being put at the back of the bus despite not being from America? And coming here poor? I don’t get it. If it is true, then I just don’t see how we can ignore IQ and group differences because it won’t stop with white people. And after Asians and Jews, and mixed race people like me, it will come for light skinned Hispanic and Mulatto people will be next. I don’t think it will stop. And assuming this is about race and IQ and Charles is right, do we really want to be a society that doesn’t uphold truth as a core principle to stand for and pursue? Societies of the past didn’t uphold truth as a core foundation and we all can see what became of them, as the corpses and bones can attest to. A lot of this stuff going on my mom’s tells me is eerily similar to Mao and North Korea with regards to the cultural revolutions there. And how can we be sure that this environment against white people won’t lead to a genocide? It seems that when it’s normalized for groups to be accused of being morally bad, it’s not long until genocide happens. Perhaps this is what the white people fear as they become minority. It reminds be of what China did to its minority groups. It really troubles me. I don’t want to see the US fall to this.
The "white adjacent" narrative is such horseshit. Asians have no privilege or political power/influence whatsoever in America. It basically just punishes Asians for their work ethic and resulting success because it throws a wrench in the oppression narrative.
Bravo! Excellent analysis. The disaster that Charles Murray is warning about is racial violence on a national scale and the end of Constitutional America. I suspect some powerful people, worldwide, are instigating this and they hope it will occur very soon. Will mainstreaming this information accelerate this occurrence or put the racialists back on their heels - at least temporarily? I think this will be a catalyst for an entirely new debate - if it's not already too late.
@@sunghc03 It was really hard hearing them accuse me of that. I work two jobs and my mom is sick and try to get through school and they kept telling me I am still privileged. I could have used the extra credits and lost a lot of time but I just couldn’t finish those classes.
Thank you for sharing your story because it is classic. Much of the divisiveness is not driven by so called “whites” but by confused people who cannot even see what is their own best interest but instead play identity politics and the cult of activism to create a fantasy world for which there is no solution just unending chaos. I think we can go back to in our basic day to day behaviors of meeting people as individuals and identifying sanity in people like Coleman Hughes, Lawrence Murray, John McWhorter, Sam Harris, Glenn Loury, etc. Thank you again for your insights.
I don't really see the catastrophe of knowing there are group differences in IQ. It's not a secret that Ashkenazi Jews and east Asians top the charts. Does all hell break lose if a white kid hears from an Asian kid that Asians score higher in IQ-tests on average too? It's sad that the US is so divided along race lines though. You could be glad to have ethnic groups with higher average IQ on 'your team' too, just saying...
Hearing that a smaller pop group over performs is far less of an issue compared to a smaller group underperformed. It can lend fuel to arguments of separation and exclusion, and conservatives are far more natural prone to shutting people they think are unworthy and unfit out.
@@ubuu7 No, to the degree which arguments of separation and exclusion are being discussed on the right, it is in reaction to being constantly told they are morally evil, culpable for some perceived crimes of their ancestors from hundreds of years ago, and the cause of nearly all black problems. I spent decades as a Democrat, and I can say that in my experience liberals are far more obsessed with race than conservatives. White liberals are also at least as racist about blacks. They just express it in a condescending, "benevolent" manner. When it comes time to buy a home or send their children to school, you'll see what their true opinions are. Conservatives are far more likely to judge people on their individual merits. Not always, of course. You'll be able to find a cartoonish white racist now and then. In a nation of 350 million people you'll be able to find examples of any type of person you can think of. In reality, true "white supremecists" are exceedingly rare in America. There might be 50,000 in the whole country. And I'd guess that half of those are presently incarcerated.
@@Shoutinthewind I believe that mainstreaming the understanding that currently there are differences is going to be important to some level. I however am with Coleman on this and feel like mainstreaming the idea that these differences are genetic is a horrible, terrifying, and flawed idea.
@@ammoiscurrency5706 how can you believe for example that different population groups have evolved to be taller or shorter than each other bc of genetics but all groups have the exact same IQ. doesn't it seem strange that Jews for example win way more nobel prizes than any other group way in excess of their population size?
@@10010x0x0x01101XX0X1 I guess the short answer to this was I grew up in an affluent area with alot of Asian and Jewish friends. My Asian and Jewish friends couldn't come out and play as much growing up because they always seemed to be with a tutor or learning an instrument. Growing up I can't think of an Asian or Jewish friend who wasn't raised like that. My White and Hispanic friends never had the same pressure. It's anecdotal to be sure but I'd be willing to bet faced with the same culture that gap would close considerably.
@@10010x0x0x01101XX0X1 Jews and Asians push their children harder when it comes to education. It's not surprising that groups stereotyped for their focus on education consistently score higher in education based metrics.
No-one disputes the notion that amazonian tribes and the aborigines score less than all other people in I, q. Tests. There is little dispute when blacks are lauded as being physically predisposed to athletic prowess. If then races have physical differences that are widely accepted why the outrage when intellectual differences are pointed out? Do I consider the average China man to be better or more worthy than myself because Asians score higher in general than my race the Caucasian race? Of course not . The romantic notion that we are all the same is bogus .
If Coleman had two children and they both took IQ tests, one with IQ of 120 and one with IQ of 80 would he give both the same advice for career paths? I don't think so. On this topic the tests results don't seem to be in dispute. Averages are just averages. Each person has to judge their future on the abilities they have - channeling an 80 IQ student to college can be a disaster when they would be just as, if not more, successful in a specialized trade school. Our educational system fails to channel students to directed career paths based on ability. Agree with Charles that we need to have other narratives that CRT fails to consider.
We are facing this in our family with much loved adopted family members …In a family of College graduates …The individual is what matters . The idea of social justice and salvation is NOT achievable and would require force to achieve . The blow back is coming and a civil war WILL end the Country , all these thoughts experiments won’t matter .
@@mohammadalirashed3103 Incorrect. “Who employs most of these affirmative-action black university graduates? The answer will not surprise anyone who knows any- thing about economics or discrimination elsewhere. More than 60 percent of black American professionals work for the government compared to a quarter of white professionals.79 In fact, 22.8 per- cent of all blacks in the American labor force are government em- ployees, compared to 14.6 percent of whites, and black overrepre- sentation among government employees keeps growing.80” ---- Journal of Libertarian Studies Volume 14, no. 2 (Summer 2000): 212, 2000, Ludwig von Mises Institute. PREJUDICE IS FREE, BUT DISCRIMINATION HAS COSTS by Steven Farron
One of the greatest statements Murray did say is that we are losing the ability to accept people as they are due to the raysist power of “Affirmative Action” and the harmful it creates.
@Blah Blah “They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)” Excerpt From Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies Steven Farron This material may be protected by copyright.
@@southafricanizationofsociety20 this IQ, Intelligence claim is nothing news. It was used by eugenics against blacks, Irish, Eastern and southern Europeans at beginning of 20th century. Nazi used it in mid 20th century, People always try to prove there’s some logical scientific reason why the must treat certain people as less than!
Largest minority group in the country are women the second largest minority group in the country are white women white women benefit the most from affirmative action
I get frustrated with Coleman's inability/unwillingness to face the facts. The fact that individuals must be judged as individuals, that's it. Please resist the temptation of insisting on knowing the facts and then demanding that the same facts be denied. Murray's suggestion that only individual assessment is decent and will work. Nothing else will work.
@@williamerdman4888 Is that why everything is going so well between men and women, whites and blacks, democrats and republicans, elites and working class etc... because we're all judging people based on individuals and not groups??
@@meditation4632 John, the move to focus on identities groups over the individual is new (roughly coinciding with the past 10-12 years) and I would agree with you that right now, today, things aren't going well. This is because of identity politics and not a result of the individual focus I am thinking of. Our society made great, significant strides when following the words of Martin Luther King, who focused on the content of individual character. If you are unhappy with the state conditions in todays world, I would suggest that this is an obvious result of identity politics. And it will get worse before it gets better.
Well isn’t this typical. “ I’m extremely aware your claims are factually correct so let’s pivot the conversation to how we can throw more money at the problem and not talk about it”.
Hughes makes the argument that, if something is factually correct, but could damage the social fabric, we should not disseminate that information. Sounds like he believes we should let the plebs believe in religion.
This is one of the most disheartening postures among so many intellectuals: "Well, we don't need it but the masses need their pacifiers to suck on and let's not discourage then from it because they might come after us." Sadly they're not wrong.
Yes we should let people believe in their religion even if we can prove their religion is false. So long as they don't hurt anyone. For many people their sanity is hinged on their beliefs. It's not our place to rip out people's support system, in the spirit of truth, if it could cause harm to them.
@@LoveJungle420 it's not the same analogy. It would be closer to holding back studies about evolution because it would disrupt the Christian social fabric. In other words, it's not about not letting people believe in religion. It's about not spreading empirical information for fears that it would destabilize the dominant religious belief.
@@LoveJungle420 Memes are like parasites, in that the ones which kill off their hosts too quickly tend to die off. So if a memeplex survives for centuries and grows into a major world religion, then that puts a firm upper limit on how bad it can be. The ideas that come out of the social sciences departments have not been so vetted. They can be limitlessly bad.
Coleman, when the mainstream media, the woke etc. say that there must be sytemic racism because of the differences in success of the races and therefore we must fight that discrimination with quotas, what is the right response? You are obligated to tell them about IQ differences. Because if IQ differences dont exist, then these lunatics have a point.
You tell them that they haven't sufficiently demonstrated that systemic racism is the primary significant cause of the success gap, just like Murray's IQ Data on it's on own doesn't sufficiently demonstrate that IQ differences are the primary significant cause of any particular success gap. You need to actually draw an empirical connection between the success gap you're measuring and the potential causes of that gap. Being so quick to bring up IQ Differences without actually knowing how much they contribute to the topic you are discussing is foolhardy; it's needlessly provocative and makes it seem like you have an agenda, the same as when leftists try to blame every problem on systemic racism without knowing how much racism actually is affecting it.
@@Utopia_YT Yes, I know that Murray's IQ Data is just a compilation of the established research in the field. I'm not debating the validity of the research. I'm debating the misapplication of using that research to draw conclusions about the causes of certain gaps in performance. As mbird301 said, IQ is not the only explanation for success gaps, and in general, it's a terrible explanation rhetorically, given the horrible history and present trend of racial tribalistic thinking prevalent in both the left and right. Even if you care about truth above all else, which I myself pretty much do, you should probably wait until you can speak only in pure facts rather than any speculation when it comes to the topic of IQ differences.
@@sirjelly72 haha you mean to tell me you think that leftists would listen to that argument? All you hear about today is ‘systemic racism’ so a few people telling the mob that there isn’t sufficient data isn’t going to help one bit I definitely sense Murray’s frustration here
Probably you should have put that in quotes to demonstrate that you are imputing this sentiment to others and not expressing it as your own, unless I misread you.
Honest and respectful discussion like this are the only hope we have for moving forward as a society, and more fundamentally, as a species. Thank you both very, very much for engaging in it and allowing us to absorb it.
@Zoomerwaffen xx it’s so hurtful. Reality is such a drag! Why would you say such things?! It can only be, it must be, that you are living in a reality that must folks have yet to awaken to.
Interesting how offended people are on IQ comparisons, but everyone has been talking about race and sports forever. In fact it’s common to hear black people are more able to excel in professional sports. Tv, comedy, movies- you name it. We see the data also. Remember the movie ‘white man cant jump?’
@@kephartacus5454 not sure what you mean, these two are discussing it, others have mentioned it, it is debated in many fora. There is general debate as to what constitutes iq and how to measure it, whether current measures are culturally bias, lots of debate going on. Maybe you missed out?
@@justinoz06 The "debate" if at all would seem to be carried out somewhat somewhat sub rosa a bit removed from the mainstream prefaced and interspersed with profuse caveats, disclaimers and preemptive apologies.
There is a UA-cam video (if it hasn't been taken down) that shows the results of a comparative IQ test, given to black and white students attending the same university in Johannesburg, S. Africa. The test consisted of 2 easy questions, and deliberately avoided written words and used only pictures so that the test takers' reading comprehension skills would have no effect on their performance. The students had to look at a geometric shape, then decide which one among the given choices was the SAME SHAPE, JUST PLACED AT A DIFFERENT ANGLE. And in every result of multiple tests conducted, black students performed roughly 1 grade level below white students on average. This video floored me, actually... The test questions and the choices were all shown in the video, so I could see for myself that the evaluation method was fair and free of bias. The test was easy and intuitive, not college-level difficulty at all. It was not a kind of test where your previous education could help you. I could not account for the performance difference except by assuming that some students simply failed to observe the pictures accurately. This issue is thorny as hell, to be sure. But if there is a population-level difference among races in physical height or athletic prowess (which is undeniable), we are kind of forced to accept that a population-level difference in intelligence is at least a possibility. And whatever we conclude about this topic, shutting down discussion or avoiding the matter altogether for fear of uncomfortable findings is neither scientific nor progressive.
DNA research is now showing genetics and ancient DNA admixture (Neanderthal in all Eurasians, Denisovan in Asian, etc) impact certain genetic pre-dispositions to certain diseases. So as you noted, there are population level differences in physical height, facial phenotypes, athletic ability (which is clearly visible) there is a large body of DNA research showing genetics impact diseases across population groups. There was a study that showed certain Asian populations (i.e. people in Tibet) get their ability to live in high Mountain areas do to some genes from the Denisovans.
@@palermotrapani9067 And people don't question the impact of genetics on disease, yet want to insist that it has little to no influence on intelligence.
@@Musicienne-DAB1995 I said nothing about intelligence in my post I do believe. So I was only saying what research has shown. I am agnostic regarding anything related to Intelligence, but if the evidence shows that then Ok.
Very interesting and subtle discussion. You guys addressed the dangers of both accepting and failing to accept the empirical realities Murray writes about and both options seem likely to be destructive to society in one way or another. I think there is a way to thread the needle, though, but it might be unrealistic to think it would get agreement. Coleman, the risk you talk about largely comes from the average person's lack of understanding of the subtleties here and because, like you said, people can't be relied on to absorb this in a purely rational way. But the poisonous message of systemic racism Murray talks about is largely coming from the top down, not the bottom up. It's the elites roiling the masses. The only ones that really need to directly face these realities are the people at the top pushing the narrative, who should be capable of understanding the subtleties. There's no need to 'mainstream' discussions of particular racial groups being more or less intelligent on average. There's only a need for the people pushing the false narratives of systemic racism on the basis of different outcomes to face that the differences are not caused by systemic racism and to stop saying they are. By all means, people should continue trying to improve those different outcomes as much as possible, but the people at the top need to stop banging the drum of systemic racism. If they would do that, nobody would need to talk about this stuff. The problem, I think, is that the people pushing it are doing it for their own benefit (financial, political, etc), which is why this solution I'm suggesting is probably unrealistic.
I feel for Coleman and I can actually hear Thomas Sowell answering him at times. Some other times I don't need to because Murray answers him to the dot, as TS would.
I noticed that myself, and can’t help but think that when a person is in favor of the Noble Lie, they are admitting, implicitly, that they view themselves as part of the ruling class. The propagation of “noble lies” is a tool and strategy of the ruling elites. Just an observation, but I think an apt one.
“How to change a culture.” As a black man, I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time. I can only continue to do what my parents taught me to do. But it’s a very sad and frustrating thing to think about
It is frustrating. IMHO.. there are powerful political roadblocks.. powerful interests in the way. Liberal Democrats depend on pandering and coddling a certain demographic. Their political power depends on having dependent voters. And Black "leaders".. like Sharpton, Jesse Jackson.. they depend on keeping Blacks in a box of victimhood. The media keeps the greatest leaders (Sowell, McWhorter, W.E. Williams) out of view. To me, this is the systematic oppression. Most people of different races want to see Black Americans succeed. The resistance is to the "opressor/oppressed" dynamic pushed.
@@benbarca It took meer decades for black culture to become what it is today. They used to have more two parent households than even whites. So all they would have to do is get back to the family values that helped them survive all those generations of oppression.
Before watching this, it's important to understand Murrary's thesis in "Coming Apart" IMO. I don't know what to make of black vs. white IQ, don't have an opinion. But it's fact that American economy is far more conducive to IQ and brain power in 2021 than ever before.... In the 50's, as Murray notes: the average math major could teach high school. Now they can work at hedge funds helping to create complex trading algorithms. IQ is an important topic in understanding today's class differences based on the information age/postindustrial economy..... How that translates to black/white IQ, I'll leave that to Murray.
@Antek Policmajster Yes and no. The Chinese are in some ways like the Nazi Germans: very good at math and science but more memorizers than innovators. We've been unable to liberalize China but that will come when/if we decouple and they have to innovate, creating a more open/creative society..... But you're right: our education system is a joke that offers neither strict memorizing or encourages innovation, it's just a colossal pile of ideological shit.
@@elements1985 Really interesting point and something I've wondered myself re: China's inability to innovate. It seems America will need to lead the charge of decoupling as we may be the worst offenders at present.
The Bell Curve was about IQ and its effects on social status and wealth, with Murray worrying about the *less intelligent* having fulfilling lives in a society where status and wealth is increasingly driven by IQ. The ruling class made it all about race in their usual diversionary tactic from how they have been looting the rest of society.
@@buybuydandavis Agreed, and I'd add that for some it is a deeply scary concept that people are born unequal and in ways that we can measure. I believe they forget that we can draw a clear line separating someone's value as an individual and their intelligence as measured on an assessment
So well done. I can see Coleman trying to handle this interview, and the profoundly difficult moral issue it raises, in a very ethical and honourable way.
@@stanlearner5102 lmao yup. we see through the grift here. intellectual openness not for any real intellectual value, just for money from white people who lap this shit up.
@@supawavyman its so ridiculous. did you see Glenn Loury telling Tucker Carson that black people need to stop complaining about racism injustice less they upset white Americans to start acting white?! First tenured black economics professor at Harvard offering a subservient posture whites would NEVER adopt. Back to this. I can't believe how naive Coleman is, acting as if Murray is his soul brother. Dude! He is saying you are inferior to him!
@@stanlearner5102 its sad really. Loury is another joke tbh. Saw his recent discussion with Cornel West. West greets him and indicates he values some of his ideas/work and Loury goes onto say, "you know I'm a conservative right?". As if the conservative movement hasn't been silencing and jailing socialist/communist(leftist) for decades. This new soft spoken, self pity, "populist" just about ideas act the conservatives have taken up is probably their greatest grift yet.
@@supawavyman Loury soft peddled with Lamont Hill to sell the reissue of his archaic book on racial inequality. He goes in on the black community with McWhorter.
I was a jet pilot. That profession is the highest level of meritocracy anywhere, because obviously, of how much is on the line in money and life. There are virtually no black pilots. You either have a mind that can handle the load, especially in the weather and congested airspace, or you don't. this is just a fact, not an accusation. either we deal with the differences, or we avoid them and speak in secrets.
My guess is being a fighter pilot is more difficult. Well, here is one black who has the level of meritocracy and a mind that can handle it. ua-cam.com/video/lvbXUD9ZNKk/v-deo.html&feature=share
@@afreakan9838 “They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)” Excerpt From Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies Steven Farron This material may be protected by copyright.
@@Musicienne-DAB1995 this guy thinks the reason there was no black pilots was cause intellect & not opportunity or the fact this might of been 1973. Just goes to show being a jet pilot _does not_ require the highest of intelligence. This whole conversation has gotten me to realize *wisdom* is much more valuable than intellect.
@@sacbeme fr. I was laughing so much after his claim that jet pilot is the profession with the most meritocracy to ever exist 🤣. He basically just claimed to be a genius based on his job, clqimed that that are no black people with the same job then even went a step further to claim that this is reality. Crazy work.
Great interview Coleman. I always love your stuff. 2 points. 1st. Don't apologize to the censors for having an awesome and necessary conversation. If they can't see the value of this kind of exchange, they should go join their comrades in N. Korea or China--not be impacting you and your work. 2nd. I think Murray beat you bro! I'm used to seeing you win. But he put some great questions to you, and you didn't have much. "How would you address the cultural problem of black students bullying other black students who do good in school?" And "If you don't like what's been attempted to address the intelligence and educational gap, what do you propose?" Those are super solid, fair and valid questions. And you should find better answers to them. Murray was trying to move you into the Thomas Sowell territory of "well what are your concrete proposals and how are they better than what's been tried?" And that's a serious conversation. It's much easier to defend a vague position of criticism. Then we can all walk around with our hip disapproval. But it's corrosive, it builds nothing, it's a way of resisting the necessary though undesirable conclusions. You were brave to get into it with Murray. But he showed you what true bravery looks like, he followed the evidence and the logic all the way to the end. He said, "It doesn't matter." The difference is intractable. We don't have any new solutions to try. So we need to come to terms with it. And it's ok. It's ok if there are mean differences in IQ. It explains some of the achievement gaps. And a true though disliked explanation is better than a false though favored explanation(systemic racism!). My advice, don't be so insulted by the possibility of mean IQ differences. And 2nd, get rid of that scenario where you explain racial IQ differences to your kids! Tell your kids the truth! Racial IQ differences have nothing to do with what they are capable of! I liked how Murray pointed out that these are the size of differences between siblings. We're all just brothers and sisters, we can all succeed and do well.
This conversation reminded me of my grad school days. Discussing the issues in an impartial way, looking for the best solutions, I wish more conversations could be this productive.
Coleman's stance seems to be "Don't tell people as they'd be (generally) too foolish to understand" While there's always been some truth to this, we've tried BOTH ways. And despite all the problems with going in the direction of tell people everything and let them figure it out, the opposite way he's advocating, we are seeing a lot where that mentality leads. And it is MUCH MUCH worse.
I agree suppressing inconvenient truths because some might react in a way you find unacceptable does not change the facts and won't help resolve the underlying issue. If Murray is correct that there are immutable genetic differences that cause outcomes then forced social engineered by equal outcomes is unjust.
We'd be heading off to the camps anyways, so it doesn't really matter when or how they find out, if this were to be true. Either that or excised from society and left to die off.
@@youpeopleareinsane1285 For what it's worth, I'd like to extend whatever love I can to you. The world is horrifying in 1000 ways, but I love you. As much as a random person who has never met you on the internet can.
Dumb question. Why should we be this concerned about changing black scores? We have already fought a war to free the slaves and had a civil rights revolution in 1965 and we are still hearing the same old, same old. What do you say to "its time to focus on whites test scores to get them up to Asian levels."
@Jo Fugya It depends on your perspective. For people like me who are denied opportunities because we are White, it is good. For grifting minorities and the overall stability of the country it is bad. After the 60s there was an implicit contract that whites wouldn't flex identity politics and blacks(who at the time were the only nationally significant minority) could practice it in moderation because of history. Now that the great replacement is happening, the short term stability can only be secured by the elites canablizing White American social capital. So I am for My People standing up against their destruction. I don't hate other people per se, but the future demographic and cultural hegemony of Whites must be secured in the US or else we will become a nuclear Yugoslavia.
I'm white protestant. I have Jewish friends that I know that are smarter than me and I don't have jealousies. I admire my Jewish friends. I have Black friends that are better athletically than I am. I don't have jealousies against my Black friends. I admire them. Be what God has given you and don't covet your neighbor.
I'm white and I understand that certain Asian groups score higher on IQ than I. No big deal, just one more motivation to work harder. IQ has its limits, obvious but it needs to be said that every person needs to be judged on merit, not race.
Yeah if you ever speak to regular people about this topic always use the example of another race that scores better on IQ tests than white be it Asians or Ashkenazi Jews to make you look less like you are saying blacks are inferior to whites and more like you are saying asians are superior. Doing it this way makes it way more likely that the average person will listen to you even though you are presenting the same information. I've made the mistake before and had people threaten to get me fired and all sorts.
@@matthewtalbot-paine7977 so your the weird guy who tries to tell all his coworkers about racial IQ differences even though no scientists say genetics is the reasoj
The real issue is the legal theory of “disparate impact.” It posits that government has legitimate authority to redirect any system or policy that appears to produce disparity in outcomes on a group basis regardless of whether the system or policy is intentionally designed to produce the result motivated by animus toward the impacted group. It is the evil twin of disparate treatment, which is intentionally unjust discrimination. It is a slip knot or back door for working around the constraints of the Constitution designed to protect inalienable individual rights. It is intended to open the door to an all powerful state that owns everything and distributes it “equitably” to assure “equity,” or whatever outcome is determined politically correct, because the same thinkers pushing “disparate impact” are pushing the postmodernist denial of objective truth, asserting instead that all that matters is power and all rights are positivist. It would be more helpful if the podcast hadn’t led with a provocation for a title. It assumes the same intersectional struggle explanation for history as those pushing the “disparate impact” collectivist scam. It occurred to me why Marx’s class struggle as driver of history explanation and it’s mutant successor intersectional group struggle are not only wrong, but weaponized intellectual concepts. The real driver of history is the struggle by free, self-governing, virtuous individuals to resist the relentless March by the political class to accumulate power. It’s not the “Capitalists” accumulating wealth that will be the death of us because wealth dissipates by the third generation. It is the political class accumulating power to become a ruling class - currently to ape the “China Model.” Where is the evidence of that ever dissipating?
The real driver of history is the struggle by free, self-governing, virtuous individuals to resist the relentless March by the political class to accumulate power. How was it virtuous to just claim the land and displace indigenous Americans, break treaties and march them to some land that seems undesirable at the time?
@@sabinereynaudsf - who said it was? But what people anywhere in the world and throughout human history has not been subject to conquest by stronger nations or tribes? One would have to intentionally ignore history to act like the earliest migrants to North America from Northeast Asia didn’t treat each other similarly long before Europeans arrived. The Ojibwa tribe conquered the Sioux and drove them out of the Northwoods onto the Great Plains. And the Europeans had been treated similarly by other peoples. Should my Celtic people, the indigenous of Anatolia, conquered by the imperialist Turks who invaded from Central Asia and committed genocide against our ancestors, be shamed for it and made to return the land or pay reparations? The notion that conquest is wrong only became virtuous with the end of the first phase of WWII in 1945 and the signing of the UN Charter.
@@sullinsea You said that, I copied that from your post. I was responding directly to what you wrote. I thought you were including what drove history in the past. Now you are framing history differently. Virtue has nothing to do with it, got it. That was my point exactly.
@@sabinereynaudsf - No I did not. Don’t try to put words in my mouth. You’re misrepresenting what I said and the definition and scope of virtue. Virtus is an internal societal characteristic. It may or may not have been present among various tribes of the early migrants to North America, but that didn’t stop them from conquering each other n and you are engaging in a logical fallacy used by those only interested in deconstruction instead of truth. In any case, your comments are a non-sequitur. The fact that every single human tribe or nation has either conquered or been conquered has nothing to do with the truth that the mover of history is the struggle between the sovereign people and the ruling class, not economic or intersectional struggle manufactured by collectivists, whether Socialists or National Socialists.
@@sullinsea You are not expressing yourself succinctly. I was not trying to put words in your mouth. There is no point in answering any of your assertions. Your sentences end up being a total gish gallop. And you will always claim to be misinterpreted. A piece of advise. Try to stay away from run on sentences.
Salient points made by Murray: 1. The society is already harmed by the infusion of critical race theory and white privilege, which are patently false. He is merely counterbalancing the narrative with the twin facts about race and genetics, which actually explain the differences in intelligence, test scores, and crime rates. This becomes critical once you have exhausted all means of engineering the environment to the advantage of the blacks - school, nutrition, etc. 2. Murray wants to help American society see the truth while at the same time preserve the American creed, which is why he wants to put the twin facts out there, while at the same time encouraging Americans to treat one another as individuals. The latter leverages the fact that there are individuals in the overlaps between the racial medians - the Oprahs, Denzels, and Barracks. 3. That this exposition produces a better trade off than not talking about it because the society is already poisoned (see point 1), and perhaps, exposing the truth is best ditch attempt to save the American creed. 4. The white elite in America are afflicted with white guilt and support narratives like critical race theory and white privilege. However, the middle- and lower-income whites don't think the same way because they haven't experienced any special benefits due to their race. They in fact aren't racist and abide by the American creed. 5. IQ scores are statistical scores that are true for prediction outcomes for a group; not for an individual. I think Coleman hopelessly pursues his argument of shielding the public from Murray's discoveries about race, IQ and crime rates, which are scientifically proven, all in the interest of not adding to the racial tensions, all the while forgetting that the racial tensions are boiling over, that the society is unravelling, and that Murray's ideas and discoveries won't in any meaningful way add fuel to the fire. Coleman also fails to offer solutions to social cohesion and halting the unraveling, and only goes as far as saying something to the effect of "we need to find better ways."
@@stanlearner5102 Oh no, blacks might feel bad while white kids get struggle sessioned because of racial blood libels. Real big brained move there Coleman.
@@zalacainbilbao because... would you assume a random black person is of lesser IQ than a white person if you were an employer? To do so is racist, after all, this is an individual not a group. We recognize people as individuals. So of what use is it to bring up this topic. It functionally has no usage whatsoever. There are billionaires with lesser IQ than some MENSA members. How do we evaluate someone's contribution to music, science, business... it's not solely intelligence. It's things like perseverance, grit, cunning-ness, ability to adapt. There are far more significant traits that benefit society than pure _"intelligence"_ . Which is why you'll never find an Asian country ( _"higher intelligence"_ ) getting sucked into this debate. They know its of no significance.
@@sacbeme I basically agree with you. But if something is true, it should still be faced up to. I especially agree with you that individuals should be judged on individual merits, not on those of their perceived group characteristics.
@@sacbeme Great points and even Charles said there is still a LOT of overlap in intelligence across groups. For instance, he said you will find some blacks with higher IQs than some white folks and some white folks with higher IQs than Asians
I haven't heard a convincing rebuff of Murray's conclusions. Can someone send me a link to peer reviewed empirical research that counters his understanding of the situation?
Addendum Coleman, as to your hypothetical IQ discrepancy between Democrats and Republicans, hasn't the MSM been telling Trump supporters (all 75 million of them) this very thing for the past 5-6 years?
If I had to bet, I would wager that if you asked other races about marrying outside of their own, whites would be the most tolerant of it. So I don’t think that poll proves much.
I agree with Murray. The dangers of moving from judging people as individuals to judging them as "members of a group" is much more dangerous than telling the truth about the reality of test scores. Please! There's no contest. Parents have to explain to their children all the time why they are not as beautiful as somebody else, or as rich as somebody else, etc. That's the plight of parents at all times. Learning that "your" group scores lower than "group C" or "group F" while scoring higher than "group H" shouldn't mean anything to any individual, exactly because he is NOT a group, he is an individual, the mean of the group has no influence on him as an individual! It could be that "your" group scored higher than all other groups so far compared to it, and it still wouldn't change a single thing about you as the individual you are! And it's the job of parents to explain that to a child, and of scientists to explain to journalists and others who for some reason don't want to accept that there are differences between groups, other than when they insist that there are differences between groups - much as depending on how the wind blows.
Kudos to Coleman for his open mindedness. His initial argument re group iq differences in the mainstream is not well supported. He could have said East Asians have higher iq than Black Americans and then this argument would take a different direction.
Wow. What an amazing conversation. Thank you Coleman for continuing to approach thoughts and issues that many people wouldn’t be caught near. I understand his reasoning of why he felt the need for this book, but I also think it’s a mistake because it’s just throwing gasoline on an already raging fire. Now, I watched this seven months after the video was released, and I have never heard of the book. So I think the mainstream media has wisely kept away from it. I also don’t see racial tension as high as it was seven months ago either. Political tension is still at a crazy high, and sometimes race gets used by both sides to stir people up, but I do think things are getting better. I think that this conversation has such great benefit when looked at as a whole, and I want to thank both of you for having this discussion.
Yeah, that's a good point. I.Q differences may be irrelevant. Systematic racism may not be the problem. If might come down to a preference to being with those who speak the same language, listen to the same music, and laughing at the same jokes.
Coleman I think you might underestimate the damage being done by falsities already pervasive in the culture. These could probably be resolved if we embraced the truth, however terrible it may be. And like Murray says, we cannot address the problem without understanding the reality of the situation. Great interview! Keep it up!
@Paranoia Agent the problem to be addressed is people are being lied to just to make them feel better. This has a real effect in people's lives, taking away their agency and responsibilities, which fundamentally make the lives of lower income black folks worse. It's all in the data. I wish it was just because white people are being pressured. But white people blaming themselves won't do anything unless the problems are addressed. That's kinda what the whole video was about.
In 100 years, we will still be having the same BS conversation regarding the same people. Work hard, be a good person, look after your family, your life will work out fine. For the vast majority of people in the US. However, when you consistently engage in bad faith conduct, make no effort to work hard or improve yourself and take no responsibility for future or your family, then you will have suboptimal outcomes. End of story.
I’m about halfway through this. I just subscribed and did the notification bell. While I learn towards Murray’s position, you are still amazing at highlight concerns and disagreeing in ways that made me think in different ways regarding this issue.
I have read from both sides on this issue. I still lean towards Murray, though I think the crime issue is far more fixable than cognitive ability differences. It would be absurd to deny that environment plays a role, and I think Murray is clear that this does have an effect as well.
I have no issue accepting I'll never be a professional athlete, or a mathematician. I'm not equipped or inclined to do either. No force of will from outside me will ever change those objective realities. I know Coleman is orders of magnitude smarter than I am, and I'm happy for him. My life is a blessing, nonetheless.
@Yirlani Depends on the sport. There are many sports that have few Black athletes (long distance running, swimming, rugby, pole vaulting, archery, badminton, soccer, volleyball, weight lifting, crew, and so on). I know some people will say that it’s a matter of access, like having access to pools. Ok, but why don’t we see island or coastal countries like Jamaica being competitive in the olympics? Doesnt everyone have the ability to play soccer too? Even without a large field you can dribble the ball in your driveway. And if you access to a field to play football, you could play rugby as well. So why are these sports not dominated by Black athletes, while a few sports such as basketball and football are?
@@samanthawhang7498 Are you Talking about soccer across the world? There are African teams. Have you seen some of the teams in Europe such as France, UK, and Netherlands?
Your comment about how you want to promote open dialogue and have real conversations with people who hold controversial viewpoints is...exactly the reason why conversations on this topic need to be mainstreamed. Put simply: the truth is always going to get out eventually. It is the first people who spread the news that get to control HOW it comes out, and a libertarian like Charles Murray who stresses the value of the individual and evaluating them on a case by case basis is one of the best options for how we go about spreading that. If he doesn't, Richard Spencer types will.
When Coleman said he would resent a culture that forced him to have an IQ conversation with his child, I thought about how weird it would be to block birds and the bees and IQ differences in the same week. Jokes aside, I appreciate that the conversation was held with nuance, no personal attacks, an extension of friendship, and empathy from both sides. Remarkable.
The birds and the bees, IQ, Jesus and Santa aren't real, you have to work you're entire life and nothing happens when you die. But Ice Cream is real, and look what I've got.... I think I could cover that in about 20min. To an 8 year old.
@Danny Timms Yeah IQ is pretty fake. There are huge variances within repeated IQ tests for individuals, there's nothing objective about it. If you think that means psychology is fake, fine lol. I'm sure there are plenty of other soft sciences that you think are fake.
Is it such a refreshing thing to see a conversation where people disagree without getting angry but actually taking the chance to go deeper with their questions and arguments. Thank you both for your honesty and candor and for really listen and engage with each other. As a viewer, it has been a very enriching discussion. I hope you both have a beer together one day.
No matter the empirical differences between races, all that matters is equality of opportunity. Give everyone the same opportunity to succeed and if they don’t that is on them. Meritocracy ultimately creates a pyramid of competence and the only way to scale this pyramid is to be more competent than others in certain areas. We live in a society that rewards you on the basis of your contributions. If you want to succeed, pic a topic of interest that you can develop your competence in. Your success is reliant on yourself, so quite making excuses as to why you don succeed and do something about it!!!
Completely agree. And I don't think that Murray would disgree with that either, since he keeps stressing that you still have to treat people as individuals, no matter the averages.
Coleman: I have to congratulate BOTH you and Charles Murray for a very civil and enlightening discussion of a topic that is obviously very close to both of your hearts. If we could get more discussions where both sides who have different perspectives but are respectful of their opponent we could begin to do a better job of healing wounds and solving problems.
Its actually the second time I've listened to this conversation. Whilst I think Charles Murray has an important message, Coleman's leadership and ability to articulate sensitive topics is way way way beyond his years. I'm nearly double his age... and humbled !
I think CH is great but "leadership"? He admitted that he had no idea how to proceed given the total failure of all programs since the '70s. A leader must have a direction, not just a goal. CM doesn't seem much of a leader but he does at least have a direction even if it is only the least bad one.
@@SmileyEmoji42 I rather trust someone who doesn't claim to have all the answers than someone who does. I agreed broadly with both Hughes and Murray. My only disagreement was Hughes' fears regarding this conversation being made public. Nobody can hide these facts. People already discuss them.
Ok listened to it all now. It is intractable because we are focused on black white, and we will remain focused on it for a lot of reasons. These differences exist in every single group you could name, but nobody cares. Male female, christian jew muslim, black white asian, immigrant from russia, immigrant from india... It's emotional and political so it's going to be front and center.
While I agree that the discussion has been hijacked by the competition between two specific groups, maybe there is simply more fuel (i.e. more grievance and history of interracial conflict) for a bigger eruption if the reality of what Murray is laying out in "Facing Reality" isnt properly handled in our day to day sensemaking as a society when we discuss intelligence differences between blacks and whites.
“They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)” Excerpt From Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies Steven Farron This material may be protected by copyright.
This was extremely difficult to get through, I found myself feeling bad for both of them. Coleman got noticeably flustered in my opinion and Murray wasn’t giving totally clear answers during some moments.
That's the strategy when a huge proportion of your colleagues disagree with the fundamentals upon which your entire argument is based. If there is no significant genetic component to the black/white IQ difference then Murray's argument becomes much less compelling. The basic criticism that Coleman put forth - that culture plays a massive role - was something that Murray didn't even begin to address. He also failed to address the negative consequences of mainstreaming the debate that Coleman rightly pointed out; that telling black kids they are doomed because of their genetics makes education even more of a "white thing" when the exact opposite is what we need.
@Danny Timms Two examples come to mind of how powerful the influence of culture is within an ethnic community: 1. "Waiting for Superman" - documentary. Repeated attempts to overhaul, discipline and improve, i.e. "progress", education was met by teachers and parents in black public schools with strong resistance and intimidation and little to no accountability. As well as an abundance of money not solving the problem. 2. As much as I strive to cite the source in my examples my memory escapes me where I heard of a real life example of a police officer ( in L.A.? ) that "off-the-record" pointed to black kids playing in the streets after school while the kids of Korean descent were at home doing homework...and he said something to the effect: "This ain't rocket science. It starts at home. Guess which ones will succeed?"
@Danny Timms Got it. I hear your point more specifically as you mean it. It would seem that if you take a family's culture that was poor and uneducated for generations, then spun around and stronly emphasized education and degrees, that that would have a direct and potentially very impressive impact upon IQ, don't you think? I'm unfamiliar with the deeper complexities of the research, this is moreso riffing off the cuff. My brainstorm seems to follow your alluding to it needing to be traced and followed over generations. I follow as well your second paragraph as to groups, not individuals. If it is 60% that sounds quite significant. Thank you for your thoughts and clarification on this matter.
I was under the impression that Murray was a victim of SJWs, but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't think a scientist should be attacked for his work, but what he is trying to do is very problematic (I could use a much worse term) and goes beyond science. There is no way he is that dumb to not understand what would happen. At this point the only solution I see is to completely ignore race, not to base policy on it. Demonstrating that the US is not a systemically racist country might be important, but it's not nearly as important as other issues. Just ignore race. There should be a law against racial differences being used in policy making. That wouldn't solve the issue, but it would do the least damage.
What I would love to know is what level of lower IQ individuals (as tested) are highly conscientiousness (in the big 5 sense) and whether this can overcome (or at least minimise) the negative effects associated with lower IQ levels. One would assume less conscientiousness with high tested IQs simply have a greater room for mistakes.
@@freeindeed8416 “They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)” Excerpt From Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies Steven Farron This material may be protected by copyright.
It's happening. I knew all the talk about racism from the left would wake up a talk about race from the right. This can get really ugly. But then, I remember a talk by JBP... sometimes the real peace comes after having a good discussion. As a society we're in the middle of that discussion. I already miss color blindness.
Amen on missing colorblindness. So much progress put us in so much of a better place. I wish we could all just turn and go aggressively at the future, but I guess we are going to have to go through this. With the rise of China, the timing is catastrophic and could actually spell the end of human freedom. Then we'll all be equal (but some will be more equal than others)
Murray predicted some sort of reaction, and this book is actually his attempt to get ahead of any backlash by diffusing the problem in the first place. Murray argues that the way we understand IQ isn't accurate, that it is a mistake to model our economy or society on this belief that IQ is a measurement of someone's intellectual worth. It doesn't measure your capacity for knowledge, it doesn't measure what you already know or what you can learn, it is simply a measurement of the mind's mental agility. It is like measuring someones physical agility, like how fast can someone run a mile? If they can do a 4 minute mile, does that make them a better choice for my Olympic track and field team than someone who runs a mile in 8 minutes? Yes definitely. Does that make them worth more as a person? Hell no, it's just so that the guy who runs an 8 minute mile simply wont be the first choice as a long distance runner. However the way we currently use IQ is to rank the individual worth of people and to do so without recognizing the reasons why we are wrong is exponentially worse than having an open conversation
@@dakkagaming671 the thing is that that mental ability is suspected to be the thing which takes an individual to a better social and economic position, right? Isn’t that what basically the “Bell curve” book says? And hence, the left doesn’t want to admit this because it would require of them a complete change in strategy.
@@dakkagaming671 Intelligence is everything, and we (my group) have none apparently. if crime and poverty are the only things we're capable of providing to the world, then that "value as an individual" shit is nothing more than an empty platitude. A participation trophy, really. No one wants us around, and it's apparent where this will all lead. A couple of outliers and "good ones" won't change anything.
Thank you Coleman, for having the kind of difficult, nuanced discussions our society needs to have. I think you both made some excellent points. Fantastic interview (and guest), and just one more example of the important value you are bringing to our society. Please, please keep up the difficult, but great work!
I do like the fact in America you can't say something that is true. Truth is if you don't have a higher iq you will probably live in poverty. Using a keyboard is important to success. So what job can an average or low iq do not to be in fear of being homeless since Clinton. Sent all the jobs to China that normal people used to do. Are you going to build semiconductors?
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I love how Asians who were part of Murray's analysis, are LITERALLY NEVER BROUGHT UP. This topic is a magnet for specifically black people
Because Asians are treated with NEGATIVE affirmative actions in the US - something which Black people hate when they use ‘fairness’ as a veil to advance their agenda.
How?
@@ahmedeensaeed991 they've just been _un-asian'd_ and thrown under the same bus as whites now. too smart to not make the others, non-Eastern asians and whites, look bad. if you're happy to have retrads as uni professors, doctors, judges, nurses, teachers or whatever just because of the tint of their skin, i hope you'll be sending your kids to them and will have them around you when in the ER as a patient. meritocracy is the only way out. a real one, not an _affirmative action'd_ one where your only merit is having the "right" skin colour. if you want a 30 years reality check of what that kind of merit has done to the only functionning country in Africa (with Libya) after 1982, have a deep dive in what happened and is still happening in South Africa, especially in the energy sector and planning and to the black population living standards now that they cannot objectively say _it's whitey fault_ (but they still say it though). i won't even mention Zimbabwe as marxism had as much to do as the skintone of the new leadership of the country.
@@ahmedeensaeed991
Well…
They come out of it feeling unflattered.
Unfortunately the people who would most benefit from understanding it, probably need help with that.
However, the exact opposite of this data’s recommendations being now the norm; the opportunity to avail society of this wisdom may have passed.
IQ doesn’t indicate human worth. I think we can all agree, super villains are usually high IQ.
I personally think Downs Syndrome people are some of the best company available.
High IQ doesn’t indicate innovation - oddly…. The Brits, Dutch and Germans are no smarter than the Danes, Swedes or Norwegians, but they seem to have vastly more of the innovative gene.
I hope they keep refining the test.
This idea that black people, the whole of black people, every single black person across the globe, are somehow less intelligent as a collective is not something that is new to us. 'Understanding' this type of insidious racism will never benefit us, nor will it benefit the mediocre people who create and adopt this prejudiced RELIGION.
What's odd about this whole concept is that a simple Google search would inform you that black people had governments, kingdoms, cultures, and invented things prior to the arrival of the European. I'm so happy that most of us have not and never will come across this channel.
I am a black woman. Just let me get that out of the way.
It seems quite apparent to me that there is no sensible reason that human beings would evolve and adapt to their various environments physically, but have that evolution and adaptation stop at the neck. It strikes me as obvious that some particular intellectual abilities would have been more beneficial in some environments and less so in others. The evolutionary pressure on the populations living in the places where analytical thinking was a huge advantage, for instance, would have that pressure result in heritable changes to cognition that improved analytical thinking.
Long term memory may have been more advantageous in a different environment and may have become a prominent trait for people groups living there.
This seems both obvious and not particularly controversial.
As those people's descendents began to live in societies that were designed around the strengths of the people who set them up, they will naturally find it difficult to compete with the population that has created the culture based on their own adaptations.
My point, in brief, is culture is downstream from genetics which is downstream from the evolutionary pressures of environment. You can hardly expect a person whonis optimized to one environment (and therefore one set of heritable characteristics and therefore cultural expectations) to thrive when plopped down in a completely different environment surrounded by people who have created a culture optimized to ensure their characteristics are utilized to best advantage.
I think the data on fluid intelligence vs crystallized intelligence and distance from the equator as well as the invention of writing in a society is quite illustrative of this. There is some solid research showing cultures without writing (historically) have far higher levels of crystallized intelligence and greater capacity for detailed long term memory (crucial if you communicate important information over generations via oral history) vs cultures that developed writing systems (thereby offloading some need for crystallized intelligence) who's fluid intelligence is higher (crucial when you live in an environment that frequently shifts or has strong differences seasonally)
Amazing comment very interesting and informative this was also my thoughts
@@faint8984 Thanks.
race realism is the correct position , period , as usual Coleman have nothing to contribute to this subject , after half an hour of unassailable arguments , he could only venture : " and what about lead paint ? ". LEAD PAINT , seriously , that has to be the stupidest cope I've ever heard in my whole life .
The truth is Race and IQ are the most established field of all the humanities : it's under constant scrutiny , these are the most repeated experiments of all science ! this science has been settled for decades Coleman , like all black intellectuals ( even Thomas Sowell ), simply refuses to see it . they just can' t DEAL with it .
That's the real reason why there is NO real black intellectuals :if you can't be honest with yourself , when you look in the mirror , you can't think at all .
White people are not racist , they are just trying to escape black violence and criminality , which has been out of control since the 60's .
Real racists , like neo nazis .. are only a few hundreds of people out of 300 millions of whites ! On the other hand 99% of blacks are total racists they have a burning hatred for whites , asians ..and even latinos , that blind , white knuckling , seething rage I can see everywhere .
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Excellent points. Best comment on this entire thread. Hopefully it serves as food for thought.
As long as you invest so much energy in “excuse making” - poorly disguised as reasoning, the de-evolution of blacks will only worsen.
What works is not a mystery or pertains to the proximity to the equator. Blacks have come farther and further, considering the starting line, than any group of folks in the history of America. Why we are going backwards is due mostly to folks like you, with all this pseudo science nonsense!
Simple, in successful cultures a baby-mama is known as a wife. A hustle, is known as a job. Your status is not determined by the type of car you have or the label attached to your handbag. And street knowledge is prized only if you intend to spend a larger portion of your life behind bars, instead of being on the streets.
If our politicians could speak to each other like this we would be on a better path but I’m not holding my breath
Have you seen what happens when politicians come together
@@murdockhancock
Of course. It would require different people than we currently have in politics to have these kinds of conversations. Which is why I’m not holding my breath
@@jeffreykennedy5953 its the power that corrupts the holder makes no difference
@@murdockhancock agreed completely which is why I support a smaller government with less concentrated power and term limits.
@@jeffreykennedy5953 agreed the mischievous ambitions of men must be checked
First let me say thank you for this podcast,
I researched this issue a few months back and was immediately struck by the fact Google was censoring my results assuming my intent was racist, returning only articles on why these "empirical" facts( as referred to by both) were wrong and from a by gone era of racists. Charles Murray was included. After much effort I was able to track down one poorly sourced article on the race IQ gap that failed to discuss the issue with any nuance and forced me to continue looking into this matter over multiple days to reach any kind of scientific conclusion.
My point being Coleman makes good points about a fear of the laymen interpretation, however Charles argument for nearing a tipping point of no return is sadly exemplified by the Google censorship.
@ethannarnett You tries using a different search engine ??
@@andrewjoyner4133 did some research on duck duck go, Reddit etc and what I concluded is that Murray has really no scientific basis for his claims. And there isn’t really any proof I can find that supports his hypothesis. The general scientific consensus is that he’s incorrect.
@@jjj-bl8yf It's been a while since I watched this interview but as far as I can tell, at least in my opinion if there is any difference there it is pretty much cultural or environmental rather than something inherent about black or white people that dictates intelligence.
@@jjj-bl8yf there were a couple scholarly disputes about his methodology, but I never heard anyone credible broadly dispute his findings. Try Google Scholar. Also I think Lexfridman did a podcast about this a while ago.
Google is smugly certain about their take on the world. Hence, they're quite happy to enforce that opinion by way of controlling the thoughts of others.
Coleman, this conversation took a lot of courage and you handled it expertly and with immense empathy. Great job, brother. I don’t comment much on UA-cam unless something moves me. I’m so grateful to have discovered this conversation. Having difficult conversations with fellow humans will allow our species to move forward from dogma and ignorance. Great job!
It didn’t take as much courage as you think. Coleman has political amnesty due to his skin colour.
@@Samsgarden I believe Coleman did demonstrate courage in this conversation. But even so, regardless of this conversation, Coleman had already shown me that he possesses a fearlessness few other public intellectuals have. I have little doubt that I am listening to an honest opinion when I listen to Coleman.......And Kemar B., I 100% agree! Great job Coleman!
Agreed. This shouldn't be brave, but it is in this environment. Men like Coleman are modern journalistic heroes.
@@Samsgarden
I give conservative Blacks, and any willing to buck the Narrative even slightly to the Right, props for courage. They're treated as race traitors by many Blacks.
Why does every intellectual conversation need to be prefaced with ‘courage’ or any other similar associations? Guarantee you that the other side of the argument (the woke) have the same thought process when they praise their own heroes.
Speak your mind and put your chips on the table. No heroism required.
I’d be interested to know what percentage of black, Latino, Asian, etc people object to marrying outside their race. I would hypotheses a small percentage of all races have that belief and that is more a human thing than a “white” thing.
Exactly what I was thinking.
of course
Yes! Coleman didn’t back up the claim that believing in an IQ gap leads to real racism. He showed a correlation, but not causation. Also, I totally applaud him for doing this interview
So true. Indians still try not to have interracial marriage. The other question coleman doesn't pry into is why that stat has any weight in this discussion. There are many other factors on why not to intermarry.... just look at Muhammed Alis old interviews on the topic.
I imagine it would be higher among non-whites, they seem more xenophobic on average.
I admire your interview stance. No attacks, no gotcha's. Just honest conversation even when there's disagreement.
True, though I had a hard time detecting major disagreement... other then should you put a lipstick on it...
Well said. It's an approach that we are sorely lacking in public discourse.
@@thinksimon Exactly. Coleman has interviewed many types on his channel, and almost never disagrees. And when he does disagree, it's in the most generous of ways.
I disagree. Why then did Coleman spend 10 mins "prepping" his audience BEFORE starting the Podcast. VERY disingenuous by him
@@UKtoUSABrit _Heavy speculation_
I _assume_ because this all feels wrong to Coleman. So he adds the trigger warning. I think we're watching a bright young person get slowly red pilled while doing his level best to maintain integrity and curiosity.
Again _heavy speculation_
This conversation requires both very high levels of maturity and strong moral principles. Which is why our society is definitely not ready to have this conversation in the public.
But there are loads of other conversations in public that society botches as well. And not having it in public doesn't mean that people won't have it in private.
Funny how we are up in arms when someone says there is IQ disparity but have no issue when another says there is an athletic disparity.
@WHITES LOVE MY PLAYLISTS Democracy is why facts are not widely accepted. Its the rule of the majority and not rule of the capable.
@WHITES LOVE MY PLAYLISTS Ridiculous
@WHITES LOVE MY PLAYLISTS Rule of the capable will never happen because we are by nature selfish, and that will put an end to the rule of the capable.
@WHITES LOVE MY PLAYLISTS What a valid argument. Keep it going wise one.
The athletic disparity is far more obvious and brutal than the disparity in cognitive abilities. At least from what I see in terms of athletics, especailly sprinting.
This is by far the most thoughtful interview I've ever seen of Charles Murray. I think Coleman is worth listening to on any subject he chooses to speak on.
He whipped my head around like a slap, and changed my mind on 'mainstreaming' by _reminding_ me,; being color blind is more than just being willing to see positive traits. Seeing past some traits is just as fair, (IN BOTH "DIRECTIONS") and may be the only thing that will finally equalize us socially. We have to all forgive each other for being Human!
Listen to Sam Harris interviewing Murray. Brilliant.
@@andrewwood7303I agree. I really enjoyed Sam's conversation with Murray. I'm a huge fan of Sam anyway, so maybe I'm biased.
Charles is basically the same in all his video appearances. Coleman? I can't honestly say, but he doesn't come off as really grasping the data here. He also seems a tad slow. Is that normal for him?
@@santacruzman Hughes was honest: he said during the interview he wasn't well-versed in the data.
Why do people make this a black\white issue like other races don't exist. Also all the subgroups within races which are different from one another. Really makes you think how pointless this black and white no nuance thinking, pun intended, really is.
Only becouse we are wired to trust our eyes more then any other senses...
Small minds see little outside the range of their limited vision.
The sub sub sub group is the “individual” …, therefore meritocracy (like in the NBA, NFL, MLB, MLS) is the only solution. 👍🏾✊🏾
People are still obsessed with dichotomies. It's an unfortunate tendency of rationalism when it is not self-aware. I'm not religious, but so many people today make me want to say, "y'all mfers need Buddha"
No, the data does not only deal with Africans and Europeans. It also deals with east Asians as well.
I understand both perspectives. But Murray is right, people’s hurt feelings aren’t going to matter so much in the context of out of control tyrannical government ruthlessly enforcing arbitrary power. Which is where we are headed in the long term.
Yes, Thomas Sowell has been speaking correctly on these issues for years, and he’s been completely ignored by the media, academia and anyone else who matters. When was the last time Thomas Sowell appeared on CNN? Or had his views promoted by the NY Times?
Well said.
Thomas Sowell believes it's cultural
@@cooldudecs I agree. Murray brushed off the point about early reading common in high IQ cultures.
@@cooldudecs Because it is. Making it racial is triggering and controversial which generates that... you know the thing... Black Americans pretty much stymie and separate themselves. Nigerians and Jamaicans, etc prepare themselves to acclimate into our society.
i think this was a deliberate choice by Sowell. i recall him saying once that he stopped appearing on television because there was no correlation between what he said what the media said he said.
There is a video on UA-cam where Steven Pinker, a soft-spoken liberal, goes into scientific detail explaining how the Ashkenazi Jews evolved into a human demographic that has a greater level of the traditional form of intelligence when compared to any other demographic. There is surprising little protest concerning such a statement yet other, similar statements (and the accompanying explanations) involving other demographics are ridiculed as racist or pseudoscience. We live in a culture where certain ideas, true or not, are not acceptable.
Also, no one took issue with Jordan Peterson arguing that "Jewish people are over-represented in positions of competence and authority because, as a group, they have a higher mean IQ. "
Someone should take his blog post 'On the so-called “Jewish Question”', and swap Jews with Whites and Whites with Blacks and watch the uproar.
Kinda like the banning of Critical race theory, eh?
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn If Critical Race Theory would produce a net negative, then it should be dismissed. The same would be true with examining differences in I.Q. by race. If the publicizing such possibilities would create a net negative, then that is probably the one overriding reason to not pursue those possibilities.
@@WhtetstoneFlunky You're moving the goalpost, you hypocrite. First it was "true or not", now its "whether it will be a net negative". Rules for thee minority, not white me. This is the duplicitous nature of your white opponents. They want to teach that blacks are intellectually inferior, but when it comes to CRT condemning that very racism, now it's "divisive". You can't make this up. This is how white supremacy works.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn In my second post I used the term "whether it will be a net negative". That is because you brought into the discussion Critical Race Theory, and the discussion changed to a comparison of two different concepts. So again, whether ideas are true or not, the possibility of those concepts doing harm should be a strong consideration whether the population should be subjected to those concepts.
It’s going to be difficult no matter what we do. What Murray is saying is, do we want it to be difficult because we’re living a lie, or because we’re facing truth?
People are actively choosing the matrix.
Succinct summation
In a nutshell, do we want Rhodesia or Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe can’t even feed itself.
I'm a big Charles Murray fan and I think this was the absolute best conversation you could have had. I'm not all the way done yet, but there was nothing you said so far that was off the mark. I also saw your perspective and felt your frustration. I agree with you. There is no amount of effort that is too much for increasing cognitive health. There are so many downstream negative outcomes and the benefits of working on them are almost immeasurable. I feel this is worth working full time on for the rest of our lives.
This is one of the crazy conversations where I can actually understand and agree with both people even though they disagree
That both made some fair points and they also both agreed on some points. The difference I see is less race based and more age based. The younger man is more idealistic. That's how young people tend to be. The older man is more realistic. The older you get, the more you tend to accept things for how they are and not how you hoped they were. You concern yourself with the things you can change and accept that there are some things you can't change.
The problem they have, is that both have the same kind of education, which means the same metaphysics; I am not a consciousness. Thus I am Being-in-the-World and so I am determined by the Horizon of my existence.
@@ContextReallyMatters I cane to a similar conclusion.
Coleman has a hopeful ''it is getting better'' optimism.
Charles' attitude is ''it's not getting better, so we need an honest discussion to rectify the problem''.
Coleman is a grifter. Always has been.
@@eoinoconnell185 Coleman is incorrect. IQ is biological and there is no “fixing it”.
The fact that we’re looking for racial disparities is the reason we need to study the cause otherwise the attempt to achieve equity in an egalitarian state will necessarily result in laws and policies that are racially discriminatory. In other words, because we’re obsessed with disparities of outcome as opposed to equal treatment, we will only find solution that discriminate.
As an example. If I told you there was a law that resulted in 95% disproportionate accusations and conviction of a specific demographic many people today would say that law is discriminatory against the affected group. If I told you those laws were rape and sexual assault and it vastly disproportionately affects men vs women suddenly the concern over the disparity evaporates. Its not a sexist law. It’s the intention or motivation for the law that matter. The outcome disparity is not discriminatory.
Except we didn’t start as an egalitarian state.
We live in a state that created disparities through de facto and dejure discrimination against black people.
But lots of ppl just want to ignore the 250 years of discrimination because they will have to give back the unfair advantage they stole from other people.
@@annettewilcox5413 there’s zero evidence the disparities are due to historic discrimination. Notice that first generation black African immigrants out perform whites.
@@dougd1573
There is overwhelming evidence.
#1 majority of first gen Africans are the elite in their countries. Poor Africans cannot afford the cost to emigrate to US.
#2 And I’ll let you think about what the difference is between the experience of first generation Africans and ADOS.(American Descendants of Slavery)
@@annettewilcox5413 there is not. A little factoid; the majority of poor people who win the lottery end up filing for bankruptcy. It has nothing to do with intergenerational wealth and everything to do with what each of us do as an individual.
@@dougd1573
That’s the lie the US likes to perpetrate.
The US created a white middle class from working class laborer by giving them massive of amounts of benefits that were legally denied to black people.
Spanking new suburbs, (ie Levittown), FHA Mortgages, tax breaks, highways to the jobs, equity to pass down to their kids, etc etc
If the government (and the populace) didn’t think it would create 2 different outcomes they would hv offered same programs to blacks.
They knew denying these programs to blks would leave them on the bottom of totem pole.
www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631494538/ref=asc_df_1631494538/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312029822325&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4494755561492955351&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004425&hvtargid=pla-466313351218&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316180319&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312029822325&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4494755561492955351&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004425&hvtargid=pla-466313351218
The options seem to be:
A) Tell kids that it’s no one’s fault, groups of people have different IQs, and that means some individual people get to have careers others can’t. The career is dependent on you, not on the group.
B) Tells kids that we can’t figure out why or how, but that each of us is playing a role in a system that discriminates against some groups because of how they look. As a result, you may have to do more or less to get a particular career, and that’s based on the magnitude of your moral crimes and the moral crimes you fall victim to.
C) We tell kids that you work hard, and you try to be the best you can be, and sometimes life isn’t fair. You’ll have successes and failures, and sometimes that will be your own doing, or someone else wronging you, or just by chance. But you have to do the best you can, and resenting other people will only create misery for yourself.
@Nathan Anderson not sure how that's one an autocrat would proscribe.
Another good thing about C is that it is true for all humans. There is no group that doesn't have a percentage of those with substantial cognitive challenge.
D) America, check mate
Or you could accept that IQ is not a static(or even tangible) thing and is heavily affected by the material conditions one lives in and adjust society accordingly. People would have less racial resentment if their lives were actually improved and didn't hinge on chance. There shouldn't be a job that you aren't able to support your family on.
This sounds like plain old wisdom and common sense. We could use more of that these days.
Race is real, it is genetic, and different races have different cognitive abilities. It just is what it is. Doesn’t mean any race is better or worse, it just is
That's a hard fact many people don't want to accept
Just like biological sex is real, and both sexes have different cognitive and physical abilities. Doesn't make women less than men.
I disagree but hey.. You might even changed your mind by now..
Charles Linnaeus was interested in order and boundaries in nature. For mankind, he believed there was a single human species. He did not use the term “race”, but divided humans into four “varieties” by continent and skin color: European (white), African (black), Asian (yellow) and American (red). He was therefore no “biological racist”; nor could he have predicted that biological racists would conflate his phyletic methods into institutional mistreatment and assert some pseudo-science as justification. Even by his own crude definitions, he could not reconcile his categories across any one of the continents.
Furthermore, the 1990-2003 Human Genome project debunked any scientific basis for race. And it certainly is NOT genetic. If you still insist you are correct, then please share any credentials you have to James Watson--who co-discovered the structure of DNA; Francis Collins; or John Sulston, then the director at the Wellcome Sanger Institute, as well as the 20 separate universities and research centers across the United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Japan and China who participated.
@@MisterWeave-tm4oc It is not a fact at all. The Human Genome Project disproved race as a construct at any level of science and was led by one of the men who discovered the actual structure of DNA. Race is social, pseudo-science pap that misappropriated the work of Charles Linneas to legitimize the mistreatment of human beings for global exploitation. You might as well say that the Romans were genetically superior to the Germanic peoples because they understood engineering when the Germanic tribes did not. Neither you nor Charles Murray can adduce any credible science to support your positions. None.
Fantastic conversation! Congrats to both Coleman and Charles. Both are intelligent, enlightening, articulate, respectful of the others thoughts and allowing them to speak. No drama, no gaslighting, no interruptions or voice raising. A true pleasure to listen to no matter what side of the fence you are on. Keep up the good interviews Coleman!
Coleman is the exception to the rule
@@georgeboehringer5530They’re both stupid. Charles Murray is a tired old bigot, and Coleman is a self hating black man who platforms racists and other odious individuals on his show due to his desire to come across as a balanced, self aware and intelligent individual. This obsession of his stems from low self esteem regarding his place in the world. You rarely if ever see people that are involved in and ingratiated with their communities, entertain people that dislike them.
Coleman isn’t intelligent.
My brother couldn't get an internship, because, in the exact words of the hiring manager, "Why would I give an opportunity to a white male?" I had a friend who is as dumb as a rock (still love him) and got a full ride scholarship for being half Hispanic while I had to work many hours to pay for my Physics degree at the same university. He was the son of an immigrant who had enough money while my family was jobless and living off of church welfare. I've seen the inner workings of tech events where racial minorities were given advantages in every single aspect, even down to the raffle ticket system for prizes. I was told (for some reason) that I was almost passed up on a job offer because a Hispanic person applied right when they were about to send it. Luckily, he sucked.
It sounds like I live somewhere like California, right? Nope. Utah. 91% white, 1% black. Utah hasn't voted Democrat in like 50 years. Yet CRT is here. The liberals are teaching it to the children here in schools. It is cancer. It doesn't even apply to Utah. There were only ever like 5 slaves here in the entire history of Utah, and they were freed pretty quickly. 50% of my ancestors were in Northern Europe before the 1920's. The rest were Mormon refugees from Missouri, where it was legal to kill a Mormon, and before that most of them had recently sold everything they had in England to come to America when they converted to Mormonism. Something like 2% of my ancestors had been in America before that, and there is no record of them owning slaves, probably because they were from the North and only a tiny minority of people were ever slaveowners anyway.
You cannot commit injustices against people without stirring up a lot of anger. Right now, whites and Asians are starting to become angry. I am sensing a strong undercurrent of rage boiling up around me. It can and will get a lot worse if we don't start taking the CRT issues DEADLY seriously. I will never forget the truth that all people should be treated as individuals. It is smart and moral. But I can't speak for other people in my state. All of this is building up to something. Something unspeakably terrible.
Reading my comment makes it sound like something terrible is immanent. But it's more like a slow boil. I predict major conflict in 8-20 years at this rate.
@@m3po22 I hope it is sooner and we get all these wokeists CRTs expelled from the country. Latino here, I will fight alongside you because this begins with you but will continue with me
Bravo for having Murray on Coleman.
@Meko "right wing alarmist views" LOL you're not just a clown buddy you're you're the entire circus
Correction: Bravo for having Murray on, Coleman.
I shudder at the thought of the prior statement without the useful comma.
@@SmallBobby LOL, exactly! Punctuation saves lives!
At first I was like: I completely agree with Murray
Then I was like: no I completely agree with Coleman
then I was like: Okay Murrays counter argument was spot on, he is the one I agree with
But then I was like: But Colemans counter-counter argument was exceptional insightful
And so It went on for a couple more times.
A wild roller-coaster ride of changing my mind.. Very good interview indeed.
Coleman these thumbnails are bananas
Very telling this conversation was given a different thumb nail vs all his others.
Blame the algos
him choosing a clickbait-style thumbnail for this kind of episode cracks me up
@@OQIF87NREU, I'm wondering if he has a "team" now where someone is making the decisions to present his videos with these thumbnails. Honestly, when I saw it, I immediately thought, wtf? I didn't expect to see something like that, and as such, it wasn't something I was disappointed in seeing, but now that I've seen it, I hope he gives it up. It may or may not be a winning strategy for getting people to click on his videos (I assume it's actually a winning strategy) but nonetheless, I hope he doesn't continue with it.
Two problems with Coleman's case. [1] Coleman is very worried about "schoolyard" insults regarding race and intelligence, but doesn't appear to be very worried about "schoolyard" insults about how White people are racist or evil. [2] He is very worried about discussing race and intelligence because it encourages stereotyping, but seems to admit that we need to talk about race and violence, even though this also encourages stereotyping. Historically, Whites viewed Blacks as both dumb and scary. Why is one good but not the other?
I can understand Coleman's position. He is a principled if somewhat reactionary MLK style liberal. I think Murray is speaking from a position that we need an immediate fix to stop the terrible trajectory of society in its tracks before it is too late whereas Coleman is concerned with the very same underlying problems in society but thinks fighting destructive ideas with other possibly destructive ideas is going to make society implode even faster. I'm not sure whose position is right because we don't really know how society might adapt should Murray's concerns find mainstream acceptance. That said, it isn't a question of whether white kids being told they are evil in school is worse for Coleman than black kids being told in school that they're dumb. I don't think he is okay with any of it.
I mean one is words another is systemic discrimination
@@munkstermann Murray isn’t saying anything other than what he found in his research. He admits this when he said he doesn’t have answers to the problem. He found a problem, and has published it. People don’t like the results and that’s fine. But ignoring this problem will never solve it. And coming up with solutions like “ending racism”will never work.
@@weignerleigner3037 Did you watch the interview? Murray conducted his research precisely because he's trying to jolt the USA back from a point of no return. He went as far as to say he avoided the subject in the intermediate years since the bell curve because he didn't think it would be helpful to discuss racial IQ differences when society was in a more or less functional state in spite of it all. Murray is a sociologist with a desire to positively affect society. He isn't some assburger doing research for research's sake.
Precisely. If IQ differences are "race science", CRT and "white privilege" are "race science".
Another accepted truth should be that codified racism and material discrimination of any kind is much worse than any social, abstract form of racism. Which should bring the conversation to "affirmative action" and "diversity quotas". Which are the only form of actual racism existing in America currently.
Was blacks being called naggers and looked down upon worse than slavery or segregation? Of course not.
Coleman is arguing for elites to protect the masses from conversations that only elites can be trusted to have. Murray is arguing that the masses need light to find the way.
A metaphor:
Charles Murray is Martin Luther
Coleman Hughes is the Pope
@@DeadlyPlatypus popes are cool most the time bro. I don't know what you're on.
@@JumboSchreiner110 Because you can see the future, oh powerful Oracle!
Try a little honesty yourself.
@Paranoia Agent 1. Coleman knows his audience can handle the discussion.
2. Coleman knows the size of his audience.
This discussion between Coleman and Charles has limited reach and effect on broader society
@Paranoia Agent "Anti-black narratives" oh, ok.
Early childhood is probably the most critical time in human development. Family life and culture is absolutely a factor in intelligence.
Right but IQ seems to be at least 50% inherited and we are not blank slates.
Oh, diet for the growing kids also massive
@@RichardEnglanderEpigenetics, prenatal care, early childhood engagement, nutrition and culture are vastly more important in determining capacity to achieve academically, your will to be productive, your proclivity to be violent and your financial outcomes.
For example the Danish, Swedish, British, Candadian, American and Dutch long distance records are all held by ethnic somalis athletes but Kenya is the most successful followed by Ethiopia with somalia nowhere to be seen... that's because in Somalia athletics is held in high regard Sir Mo Farah had multiple Gold medals but in his tribe the ICJ judge is more esteemed not to mention the lack of facilities training ect compare this to Kenya where Nike has entire compound or ethiopia where the govt subsidies training facilities... Haile Gebrselassie is exalted as almost mythical figure in Ethiopia in Somalia they deify billionaire like Abdirashid Duale and Ahmed mohamed yusuf... so despite having the genetic predisposition for biomechanical efficency they don't have a culture/environment that is conducive hence the disparity in outcome with their regional neighbours
@@RichardEnglanderDifferent breeds of dogs have different intelligence different breeds of people have different intelligence
Where's your evidence for your assertion?
Black Africans dominate pretty much every sport and athletic event in existence. Do you think is mostly environmental?@@skp8748
@@georgeboehringer5530Different dog breeds have different intellectual strengths. Most dogs are smart in their own ways.
I think Coleman is showing some intellectual cowardice here. He spends most of his time saying he is not an expert, doesn’t know the details, hasn’t read the literature, etc but he then completely disagrees with the researched expert Charles Murray who has specialized in this area for decades.
He then starts speculating as to what other possibilities might account for differences between races, but because he has already established that he is in a position of ignorance he is able to make speculations that are already proven false.
Coleman also wants to move quickly into the so called center of the bulls eye, and cites critics of Murray that he says he has read, having not read Murray.
Coleman both occupies a position of ignorance that allows him to side step associating with Murray, but he also claims to know enough to both disagree with Murray and agree with his critics. Coleman wishes to avoid the elephant in the room, trace differences and IQ. There is one valuable conversation here, and that is Murray input.
Spot on. Not Coleman's finest hour.
Coleman says and does a lot of things that make no sense. I still give him respect cus he is honest and I think he’s a good dude. But his ideas don’t make sense a lot of the time. Him voting for Biden made no sense to me.
No, Murray just suits your agenda, everyone has one , this is nothing new for black people , it justified slavery , Jim Crow etc, he didn’t have to engage with this guy at all , it’s pointless.
This was clearly difficult. After the excessive preamble, Coleman seemed to have no argument to articulate, no substance to any disagreements with Murray (including those of other names mentioned), and seemed instead to be reaching out and grasping for relief rather than making a case.
well, to some, pride is pretty strong to completely disregard even when faced with reality. Denial is not just a river in Egypt as they say.
Im a teacher 7 to 10 grade. Here in Norway. Black kids subsahara africans, born and rased in Norway, with 100% the same chanses as Asians and other races .
Many of them finds it very hard to finish the 8 grade. Actually the majority.
Here in the USA we just find excuses to let them pass on without being prepared for the higher grades. And then we give the blacks who have gone through that preferential admissions to universities despite the fact that they were never really able to keep up for most of their time in school.
What explanation does the Norwegian intelligentsia give for that (if there are even allowed to talk about it)?
@@publicanimalBecause we can’t have 18 yr olds in 3rd grade.
No solutions to this.
Interesting. Presumably in Maths and English?
It's not true that Thomas Sowell hasn't used arguments similar to those of Charles Murray, he does so in Intellectuals and race, even explains the evolutionary process by which genetic differences occur between groups
Yup, Thomas Sowell is an empiricist as well. Follows the facts
YES! THANK YOU!
he's also expressed that at times its changed, like with the Jewish community. Now I don't know if that happened because of immigration patterns or not, I do not know.
Thomas Sowell also points out how iqs of groups have changed significantly, and also points to highly successful black schools like Dunbar, so I don't think he would agree with Murray's view. The point Coleman was making here is presentation is important to a mass audience
@@MElixirDNB What about IQs improving and individual success is antithetical to Murray's view? He would agree. Have you read the book?
The Truth should ALWAYS be mainstreamed. If that’s disastrous, so be it. It means we need to discuss it MORE. It is up to society to understand and accept Truth.
Keeping this conversation out of the mainstream won't stop people from saying and believing the harmful things that Coleman Hughes cited in this interview. Black American children could still come across the same thoughts and ideas anyway. Mainstreaming this conversation will put everything on the table. It's much better to face uncomfortable things in the face than to have people secretly having those conversations.
@@Musicienne-DAB1995Um, he is agreeing with you. And both of you are using the term, mainstreaming, problematically when there are much better, less confusing, terms to use. Also mainstreaming is the term used to designate putting challenged learners in with the less challenged students based on the assumption that these kids would help each other succeed. This is the disaster of NCLB policy that Murray refers to. Special needs kids need education that is geared specifically to their educational need. And the kids in the "mainstream" (the regular classroom) need to be challenged and motivated at a level that meets _their_ intellectual needs too.
@@santacruzman Yeah, you're right. I know that the original woman was agreeing with me, and I didn't word my answer very well. But yes, I agree with what you're saying.
I've never heard Coleman support self-censorship about a topic.
now you have
And it made zero sense.
There's nothing negative about people accepting IQ differences between groups just like there's IQ differences between individuals.
However refusing to accept this obviously would lead to negative consequences.
Well, every rule has an exception. He thinks that it'll be net loss due to the emotional nature of the topic in a society. More importantly he is focused on the role of culture that engenders that racial iq gap. It's not like he doesn't want to address the issue. I believe he is right in his position. Charles is right in that those policies will not affect 'what is' and you need some way of handling the current situation.
@@koroglurustem1722 I think Coleman's perspective needs to be also compared against the backdrop where our current reality has 5x as many White parents having this sort of conversation with their children trying to explain to them that they aren't evil or racist regardless of what their teachers told them. When Coleman says his nightmare is the parent needing to have this conversation or the Black child being made fun of, he's showing his own personal connection to the issue and his own distance from the reality that everyday White parents and children face *right* *now* under the current CRT/systemic racism regime.
@@RyanOManchester then the solution is pushing back the CRT bullshit without becoming angry towards blacks. If individuals can preserve such a distinction nation can navigate this catastrophe. CRT accusations are very toxic and we have to reject it.
I read The Bell Curve when I was in college in the 90s. Back then, it was already writing on the wall. Society tried so hard to change things between the 60s and 90s. And now we're 30 years on, and little has changed.
I'd argue that it was the democrats precise attempt to "help" that actually made things worse.
@@MElixirDNB Trump was in power not long ago, surely that would mean racial tension would go down. But has it?
@@jimmynegatron4619 By factual statistics, all things like income, unemployment, prison reform did improve under Trump, which is why he got ~1 in 5 black voters for the 2020 election(18%) but democrats control all our media, big tech, etc which before day 1 of Trump's term were spreading lies and propaganda to increase division and add fuel to the fire of race relations. If our media wasn't so corrupt along with the constant lies of democratic politicians I do believe things would have dramatically improved. Trump was way too crass for what people were used to in a politician, but he was no racist and all the smear attempts on him were very effective in convincing liberals he was.
@@jimmynegatron4619 How many liberal reforms from ca 1960 - 2000 did Trump overturn?
@@OptimalOwl I don’t know, how many?
To sum it up, Charles is saying if racism doesn't explain the disparities in America then we have to put forth explanations that are divisive and tough to hear (e.g. today's crime and IQ reality are better explanations than racism), and Coleman is saying that there is a practical difference between even the tough explanations where emphasizing culture over innate IQ can accomplish the same goal while providing hope for change and putting more control in the hands of people.
Sorry, Charles, but what changed in the 60s was not "we have reached the peak of our ability to improve conditions", it was the advent of welfare and the war on drugs. Just as the Prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s fostered a huge criminal enterprise, drug prohibition created the criminal crime wave that followed. And welfare broke up families, penalizing them for having 2 wage earners, or at least two potential wage earners in the household. Over the next 20 years we created a generation of kids who had grown up in single-parent, no employment, environments, who's schools were terrorized by drug gangs, and kids were told to join up or suffer the consequences. Talented teachers didn't want to work in that environment. end the war on drugs, institute universal school vouchers, change welfare rules to limit time and mandate work.
To answer Coleman's question about what good can come of talking about race and IQ, I'd say that we must at least be allowed to note the difference in response to complaints that STEM faculties aren't 13% black, that tech companies don't have 13% black coders, etc. When it comes to roles that require high cognitive ability, we cannot force the demographics to match those of the nation without degrading the quality of the institutions. Based on the distributions, for every 1000 white physics professors, it's more reasonable to expect 5* black physics professors than it is to expect 200. We should do our best to judge the merits of the individual applicant, not try to meet quotas based on a lack of understanding of the tails of distributions.
While less extreme, the difference will also be seen in roles that require 1 or 2 standard deviations above the mean for intelligence. The answer may not be racism. It may be the abilities of the applicants.
*: Based on an assumption of 3 standard deviations above the mean for intelligence, which would be closer to 4 for black Americans if we assume equal variance, and the fact that there are about 5 times as many whites as blacks in the country.
Agree, you have to understand the data in order to re-tune the "system" to make it more efficient and productive. The data is hidden, so the system is broken.
@tony thomas Yeah, it's certainly gameable by importing the best of Africa, but I don't think that will lessen the complaints. The demand will shift to at least 13% American-born black employees.
@@steve112285 It's not just Nigerians though. Most Africans outperform both white and black Americans
@@ngarumurray ok sure
Exactly! This is what the people pushing for these equality quota miss out on, at first it seems logical that all traits are distributed equally within any given group of people and therefor everything should have some kind of equal distribution which reflects the "racial" make-up of that group. But that point only holds true if such distribution is fair and logical to begin with. IQ is exactly one of the factors which at least predicts that such distribution is unlikely.
What's missing is the context of all the other biological racial differences. When you see the list, including different gestation periods, brain size, and infant development rates, then cognitive differences aren't too surprising. Why would anyone expect geographically separated subspecies to have identical traits? No one applies this logic elsewhere in biology.
Where can I find this
@@paulgabel1845 the book "Race" by John R Baker goes into it in exhaustive detail.
Anti black Racism goes in circles.
Biological
Intelligence
Culture
We’re now back to turn of 20th century biological racism
It's because some people already have an outcome that they're trying to prove with supporting data, not the other way around. They're afraid that the current system (and their worldview) would collapse if they're proven wrong. Examples of such cases are everywhere in the history of scientific research.
Did you seriously just say race is a social construct....
This is perfect! Coleman and Murray are close enough intellectually so that they don't talk past each other, but far enough in generation and temperament that they bring a different, yet compelling prospective on the same issue. I wish they made a series of talks, or even wrote a book together.
You're joking, right? Coleman talked past Murray many times. He doesn't have the courage to follow the truth on this topic. Despite the comments section giving their usual standard applause lines for his "bravery" he showed none here.
Coleman is in no way even close to Murray
@@runreilly Just to be clear: you mean that because "he wasn't courageous enough" or because this act demands no courage at all to begin with?
@Meko clear points? He clearly didn't address any of the issues that Coleman have brought up to the discussion.
@@zachdawson6052 he's much younger than Murray. Give him time
Excellent podcast. The first step toward solving a problem is to correctly understand it. Seeing things as they truly are is an essential element of acquiring a correct understanding of a problem. Interpreting the implication of raw data in biased deference to "equity of outcome" solutions is illogical on its face. I marvel at displays of innate intelligence that far exceed my own. I listen to podcasts such as this and take pleasure in the fact that Coleman Hughes and his controversial guest challenge my own misconceptions about race and intelligence. The willingness to calmly interrogate hot button topics with an unflinching desire to face uncomfortable truths is a mark of exceptional character; and the ability to lucidly articulate those truths is singularly noteworthy. Being humbled by truth well spoken is a privilege.
Hello Coleman. Enjoyed the podcast. A few points I would like to share with regards of your argument that it’s best to not tell about IQ in the mainstream because that may result in a worse result than what Charles fears:
I am second generation North Korean and half Irish. My mom was Korean and my father Irish. People can tell I am half Asian. I go to school in an area that is heavily Korean with children Korean immigrants who came here with little and have kids to get a better education.
Over the years I have noticed a lot of prejudice and animosity towards Asians like me. I took a few courses based in the social sciences. I took some critical race subjects. I came across this stuff because I and other Asian students were essentially being told that we were “white adjacent.” That we essentially benefit from a system of white supremacy. This was the answer given to me when I asked why poor Asians do better than many whites if the system is systemically racist.
I felt like I was shut down from giving my opinions after this many times. It become so toxic of an environment I had to leave some of those courses and study other things for extra credits. It really felt like the teachers didn’t want me to ask questions and they would put my questions last, second to the white students to hear “less white perspectives.”
If and when whites become enough of a minority, assuming your argument doesn’t work in convincing people of color and wealthy white elite to judge people as individuals and that it’s culture that causes these differences in outcomes, then what will happen?
What will likely happen is other groups who are not dark skinned will also be blamed for doing better in academia and employment. Asian, Jews, etc.
So at what point will it stop? I fear this is why, as hard as it may be to admit, that we have to speak about IQ differences as Charles says because if it doesn’t go mainstream, the groups blaming whites as being racist won’t stop there. And that’s assuming it doesn’t end in physical violent uprising by either groups. It won’t stop with whites and they will be blaming Asians and Jews next because, why? We not only outperform black and many Hispanic people in academics and employment and income, but we also outperform many whites on average as well. So they will then have even more of a reason to go after us.
So should I now have to suffer being put at the back of the bus despite not being from America? And coming here poor? I don’t get it.
If it is true, then I just don’t see how we can ignore IQ and group differences because it won’t stop with white people. And after Asians and Jews, and mixed race people like me, it will come for light skinned Hispanic and Mulatto people will be next. I don’t think it will stop. And assuming this is about race and IQ and Charles is right, do we really want to be a society that doesn’t uphold truth as a core principle to stand for and pursue? Societies of the past didn’t uphold truth as a core foundation and we all can see what became of them, as the corpses and bones can attest to. A lot of this stuff going on my mom’s tells me is eerily similar to Mao and North Korea with regards to the cultural revolutions there. And how can we be sure that this environment against white people won’t lead to a genocide? It seems that when it’s normalized for groups to be accused of being morally bad, it’s not long until genocide happens. Perhaps this is what the white people fear as they become minority. It reminds be of what China did to its minority groups. It really troubles me. I don’t want to see the US fall to this.
The "white adjacent" narrative is such horseshit. Asians have no privilege or political power/influence whatsoever in America. It basically just punishes Asians for their work ethic and resulting success because it throws a wrench in the oppression narrative.
Bravo! Excellent analysis. The disaster that Charles Murray is warning about is racial violence on a national scale and the end of Constitutional America. I suspect some powerful people, worldwide, are instigating this and they hope it will occur very soon.
Will mainstreaming this information accelerate this occurrence or put the racialists back on their heels - at least temporarily? I think this will be a catalyst for an entirely new debate - if it's not already too late.
@@sunghc03
It was really hard hearing them accuse me of that. I work two jobs and my mom is sick and try to get through school and they kept telling me I am still privileged. I could have used the extra credits and lost a lot of time but I just couldn’t finish those classes.
@@thehylander266 it's so frustrating and insidious
Thank you for sharing your story because it is classic. Much of the divisiveness is not driven by so called “whites” but by confused people who cannot even see what is their own best interest but instead play identity politics and the cult of activism to create a fantasy world for which there is no solution just unending chaos.
I think we can go back to in our basic day to day behaviors of meeting people as individuals and identifying sanity in people like Coleman Hughes, Lawrence Murray, John McWhorter, Sam Harris, Glenn Loury, etc.
Thank you again for your insights.
I don't really see the catastrophe of knowing there are group differences in IQ. It's not a secret that Ashkenazi Jews and east Asians top the charts. Does all hell break lose if a white kid hears from an Asian kid that Asians score higher in IQ-tests on average too? It's sad that the US is so divided along race lines though. You could be glad to have ethnic groups with higher average IQ on 'your team' too, just saying...
Hearing that a smaller pop group over performs is far less of an issue compared to a smaller group underperformed. It can lend fuel to arguments of separation and exclusion, and conservatives are far more natural prone to shutting people they think are unworthy and unfit out.
@@ubuu7 No, to the degree which arguments of separation and exclusion are being discussed on the right, it is in reaction to being constantly told they are morally evil, culpable for some perceived crimes of their ancestors from hundreds of years ago, and the cause of nearly all black problems. I spent decades as a Democrat, and I can say that in my experience liberals are far more obsessed with race than conservatives. White liberals are also at least as racist about blacks. They just express it in a condescending, "benevolent" manner. When it comes time to buy a home or send their children to school, you'll see what their true opinions are. Conservatives are far more likely to judge people on their individual merits. Not always, of course. You'll be able to find a cartoonish white racist now and then. In a nation of 350 million people you'll be able to find examples of any type of person you can think of. In reality, true "white supremecists" are exceedingly rare in America. There might be 50,000 in the whole country. And I'd guess that half of those are presently incarcerated.
No of course not, but we live in a black supremacist society, we have to put their concerns above ours
@@janso7979 LOL what about adherents of Pat Buchanan like Nick Fuentes, Lauren Witzke, Scott Mcreer etc
@@ngarumurray What about Pat Buchanan?
there's a difference between "mainstreaming" this topic, and simply not pretending like the truth isn't what the truth is.
Is there when the idea of systemic racism is mainstreamed?
@@Shoutinthewind I believe that mainstreaming the understanding that currently there are differences is going to be important to some level. I however am with Coleman on this and feel like mainstreaming the idea that these differences are genetic is a horrible, terrifying, and flawed idea.
@@ammoiscurrency5706 how can you believe for example that different population groups have evolved to be taller or shorter than each other bc of genetics but all groups have the exact same IQ. doesn't it seem strange that Jews for example win way more nobel prizes than any other group way in excess of their population size?
@@10010x0x0x01101XX0X1 I guess the short answer to this was I grew up in an affluent area with alot of Asian and Jewish friends. My Asian and Jewish friends couldn't come out and play as much growing up because they always seemed to be with a tutor or learning an instrument. Growing up I can't think of an Asian or Jewish friend who wasn't raised like that. My White and Hispanic friends never had the same pressure. It's anecdotal to be sure but I'd be willing to bet faced with the same culture that gap would close considerably.
@@10010x0x0x01101XX0X1 Jews and Asians push their children harder when it comes to education. It's not surprising that groups stereotyped for their focus on education consistently score higher in education based metrics.
No-one disputes the notion that amazonian tribes and the aborigines score less than all other people in I, q. Tests. There is little dispute when blacks are lauded as being physically predisposed to athletic prowess. If then races have physical differences that are widely accepted why the outrage when intellectual differences are pointed out? Do I consider the average China man to be better or more worthy than myself because Asians score higher in general than my race the Caucasian race? Of course not . The romantic notion that we are all the same is bogus .
If Coleman had two children and they both took IQ tests, one with IQ of 120 and one with IQ of 80 would he give both the same advice for career paths? I don't think so. On this topic the tests results don't seem to be in dispute. Averages are just averages. Each person has to judge their future on the abilities they have - channeling an 80 IQ student to college can be a disaster when they would be just as, if not more, successful in a specialized trade school. Our educational system fails to channel students to directed career paths based on ability. Agree with Charles that we need to have other narratives that CRT fails to consider.
This is between two individuals, the answer isn't as simple when it's between groups of millions.
You will struggle in many trades with an 80 IQ. Might do well as a laborer or in a helper role to qualified tradesmen.
@@mohammadalirashed3103 My thoughts exactly
We are facing this in our family with much loved adopted family members …In a family of College graduates …The individual is what matters . The idea of social justice and salvation is NOT achievable and would require force to achieve . The blow back is coming and a civil war WILL end the Country , all these thoughts experiments won’t matter .
@@mohammadalirashed3103
Incorrect.
“Who employs most of these affirmative-action black university graduates? The answer will not surprise anyone who knows any- thing about economics or discrimination elsewhere. More than 60 percent of black American professionals work for the government compared to a quarter of white professionals.79 In fact, 22.8 per- cent of all blacks in the American labor force are government em- ployees, compared to 14.6 percent of whites, and black overrepre- sentation among government employees keeps growing.80”
----
Journal of Libertarian Studies
Volume 14, no. 2 (Summer 2000): 212, 2000, Ludwig von Mises Institute.
PREJUDICE IS FREE,
BUT DISCRIMINATION HAS COSTS
by Steven Farron
One of the greatest statements Murray did say is that we are losing the ability to accept people as they are due to the raysist power of “Affirmative Action” and the harmful it creates.
@Blah Blah
“They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)”
Excerpt From
Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies
Steven Farron
This material may be protected by copyright.
@@southafricanizationofsociety20 this IQ, Intelligence claim is nothing news.
It was used by eugenics against blacks, Irish, Eastern and southern Europeans at beginning of 20th century.
Nazi used it in mid 20th century,
People always try to prove there’s some logical scientific reason why the must treat certain people as less than!
There was 150 years plus of white affirmative action.
Does this count as harm in your narrative?!
Largest minority group in the country are women the second largest minority group in the country are white women white women benefit the most from affirmative action
@@lemarjewell9713 also benefited from wealth of their families.
I get frustrated with Coleman's inability/unwillingness to face the facts. The fact that individuals must be judged as individuals, that's it. Please resist the temptation of insisting on knowing the facts and then demanding that the same facts be denied. Murray's suggestion that only individual assessment is decent and will work. Nothing else will work.
But we all know that’s not what’s going to happen, people judging on individual assessments only
@@meditation4632 Why? I believe I live my life that way every single day.
@@williamerdman4888 Is that why everything is going so well between men and women, whites and blacks, democrats and republicans, elites and working class etc... because we're all judging people based on individuals and not groups??
@@meditation4632 John, the move to focus on identities groups over the individual is new (roughly coinciding with the past 10-12 years) and I would agree with you that right now, today, things aren't going well. This is because of identity politics and not a result of the individual focus I am thinking of. Our society made great, significant strides when following the words of Martin Luther King, who focused on the content of individual character.
If you are unhappy with the state conditions in todays world, I would suggest that this is an obvious result of identity politics. And it will get worse before it gets better.
@@williamerdman4888 Yea, you're probably right man.
Well isn’t this typical.
“ I’m extremely aware your claims are factually correct so let’s pivot the conversation to how we can throw more money at the problem and not talk about it”.
Hughes makes the argument that, if something is factually correct, but could damage the social fabric, we should not disseminate that information. Sounds like he believes we should let the plebs believe in religion.
This is one of the most disheartening postures among so many intellectuals: "Well, we don't need it but the masses need their pacifiers to suck on and let's not discourage then from it because they might come after us."
Sadly they're not wrong.
His argument is that Murray's work has no value (in a nice way). There is literally nothing you can conclude from Murray. Murray doesn't disagree.
Yes we should let people believe in their religion even if we can prove their religion is false. So long as they don't hurt anyone. For many people their sanity is hinged on their beliefs. It's not our place to rip out people's support system, in the spirit of truth, if it could cause harm to them.
@@LoveJungle420 it's not the same analogy. It would be closer to holding back studies about evolution because it would disrupt the Christian social fabric.
In other words, it's not about not letting people believe in religion. It's about not spreading empirical information for fears that it would destabilize the dominant religious belief.
@@LoveJungle420 Memes are like parasites, in that the ones which kill off their hosts too quickly tend to die off. So if a memeplex survives for centuries and grows into a major world religion, then that puts a firm upper limit on how bad it can be.
The ideas that come out of the social sciences departments have not been so vetted. They can be limitlessly bad.
Coleman, when the mainstream media, the woke etc. say that there must be sytemic racism because of the differences in success of the races and therefore we must fight that discrimination with quotas, what is the right response? You are obligated to tell them about IQ differences. Because if IQ differences dont exist, then these lunatics have a point.
You tell them that they haven't sufficiently demonstrated that systemic racism is the primary significant cause of the success gap, just like Murray's IQ Data on it's on own doesn't sufficiently demonstrate that IQ differences are the primary significant cause of any particular success gap.
You need to actually draw an empirical connection between the success gap you're measuring and the potential causes of that gap. Being so quick to bring up IQ Differences without actually knowing how much they contribute to the topic you are discussing is foolhardy; it's needlessly provocative and makes it seem like you have an agenda, the same as when leftists try to blame every problem on systemic racism without knowing how much racism actually is affecting it.
The fact that people think institutions and IQ are the only two things that impact success is laughable. It's a false dichotomy.
@@Utopia_YT Yes, I know that Murray's IQ Data is just a compilation of the established research in the field. I'm not debating the validity of the research. I'm debating the misapplication of using that research to draw conclusions about the causes of certain gaps in performance.
As mbird301 said, IQ is not the only explanation for success gaps, and in general, it's a terrible explanation rhetorically, given the horrible history and present trend of racial tribalistic thinking prevalent in both the left and right.
Even if you care about truth above all else, which I myself pretty much do, you should probably wait until you can speak only in pure facts rather than any speculation when it comes to the topic of IQ differences.
@@sirjelly72 haha you mean to tell me you think that leftists would listen to that argument? All you hear about today is ‘systemic racism’ so a few people telling the mob that there isn’t sufficient data isn’t going to help one bit
I definitely sense Murray’s frustration here
@@sirjelly72 There is very strong correlation between IQ and life outcomes in the scientific literature.
Truth doesn't matter; What matters is my Ego and the facts which make ME feel nice.
@@davidsmith9189 wut
Probably you should have put that in quotes to demonstrate that you are imputing this sentiment to others and not expressing it as your own, unless I misread you.
@@Pengalen you're absolutely correct; And you're also correct that people will probably, maybe intentionally, misread me.
@Zoomerwaffen xx why
@Zoomerwaffen xx 13=13, 50=50
Letting an interviewee speak, rare. Respecting an interlocutor while strongly disagreeing, rare. Well done.
Honest and respectful discussion like this are the only hope we have for moving forward as a society, and more fundamentally, as a species. Thank you both very, very much for engaging in it and allowing us to absorb it.
PotchD- your white privilege is showing.
@Zoomerwaffen xx shhhhhhhhhhh
@Zoomerwaffen xx it’s so hurtful. Reality is such a drag! Why would you say such things?! It can only be, it must be, that you are living in a reality that must folks have yet to awaken to.
As you're being replaced
Interesting how offended people are on IQ comparisons, but everyone has been talking about race and sports forever. In fact it’s common to hear black people are more able to excel in professional sports. Tv, comedy, movies- you name it. We see the data also. Remember the movie ‘white man cant jump?’
Exactly
It is due to the conclusions that may be drawn from the IQ debate, which are very different to sporting ability.
@@justinoz06 there is no iq debate lol
@@kephartacus5454 not sure what you mean, these two are discussing it, others have mentioned it, it is debated in many fora. There is general debate as to what constitutes iq and how to measure it, whether current measures are culturally bias, lots of debate going on. Maybe you missed out?
@@justinoz06 The "debate" if at all would seem to be carried out somewhat somewhat sub rosa a bit removed from the mainstream prefaced and interspersed with profuse caveats, disclaimers and preemptive apologies.
There is a UA-cam video (if it hasn't been taken down) that shows the results of a comparative IQ test, given to black and white students attending the same university in Johannesburg, S. Africa.
The test consisted of 2 easy questions, and deliberately avoided written words and used only pictures so that the test takers' reading comprehension skills would have no effect on their performance. The students had to look at a geometric shape, then decide which one among the given choices was the SAME SHAPE, JUST PLACED AT A DIFFERENT ANGLE. And in every result of multiple tests conducted, black students performed roughly 1 grade level below white students on average.
This video floored me, actually... The test questions and the choices were all shown in the video, so I could see for myself that the evaluation method was fair and free of bias. The test was easy and intuitive, not college-level difficulty at all. It was not a kind of test where your previous education could help you. I could not account for the performance difference except by assuming that some students simply failed to observe the pictures accurately.
This issue is thorny as hell, to be sure. But if there is a population-level difference among races in physical height or athletic prowess (which is undeniable), we are kind of forced to accept that a population-level difference in intelligence is at least a possibility. And whatever we conclude about this topic, shutting down discussion or avoiding the matter altogether for fear of uncomfortable findings is neither scientific nor progressive.
DNA research is now showing genetics and ancient DNA admixture (Neanderthal in all Eurasians, Denisovan in Asian, etc) impact certain genetic pre-dispositions to certain diseases. So as you noted, there are population level differences in physical height, facial phenotypes, athletic ability (which is clearly visible) there is a large body of DNA research showing genetics impact diseases across population groups. There was a study that showed certain Asian populations (i.e. people in Tibet) get their ability to live in high Mountain areas do to some genes from the Denisovans.
link the video
@@palermotrapani9067 And people don't question the impact of genetics on disease, yet want to insist that it has little to no influence on intelligence.
That sounds like a fascinating video.
@@Musicienne-DAB1995 I said nothing about intelligence in my post I do believe. So I was only saying what research has shown. I am agnostic regarding anything related to Intelligence, but if the evidence shows that then Ok.
The problem rests squarely within the black community.
Very interesting and subtle discussion. You guys addressed the dangers of both accepting and failing to accept the empirical realities Murray writes about and both options seem likely to be destructive to society in one way or another. I think there is a way to thread the needle, though, but it might be unrealistic to think it would get agreement. Coleman, the risk you talk about largely comes from the average person's lack of understanding of the subtleties here and because, like you said, people can't be relied on to absorb this in a purely rational way. But the poisonous message of systemic racism Murray talks about is largely coming from the top down, not the bottom up. It's the elites roiling the masses. The only ones that really need to directly face these realities are the people at the top pushing the narrative, who should be capable of understanding the subtleties. There's no need to 'mainstream' discussions of particular racial groups being more or less intelligent on average. There's only a need for the people pushing the false narratives of systemic racism on the basis of different outcomes to face that the differences are not caused by systemic racism and to stop saying they are. By all means, people should continue trying to improve those different outcomes as much as possible, but the people at the top need to stop banging the drum of systemic racism. If they would do that, nobody would need to talk about this stuff. The problem, I think, is that the people pushing it are doing it for their own benefit (financial, political, etc), which is why this solution I'm suggesting is probably unrealistic.
Bingo.
Wow, you really nailed it. I was struggling to summarize the entire podcast in my mind, and you did it perfectly. Thanks.
@David Bradberry - Did you see my reply? It looks like it disappeared.
I feel for Coleman and I can actually hear Thomas Sowell answering him at times. Some other times I don't need to because Murray answers him to the dot, as TS would.
I agree.
He believes in America.
One has to feel for him if you feel the same.
Coleman appears to be arguing for "THE NOBLE LIE." Plato and I are quite pleased.
I noticed that myself, and can’t help but think that when a person is in favor of the Noble Lie, they are admitting, implicitly, that they view themselves as part of the ruling class. The propagation of “noble lies” is a tool and strategy of the ruling elites. Just an observation, but I think an apt one.
No, more like noble discretion.
Is it a lie to avoid emphasizing uncomfortable and unproductive truths?
@@shmosel_ And is it necessarily a truth or a significant truth anyways?
@@urganodevotaton We won't know until we don't care.
“How to change a culture.” As a black man, I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time. I can only continue to do what my parents taught me to do. But it’s a very sad and frustrating thing to think about
LOL Apparently it took humans 200,000 years for humans to evolve, are you going to wait that long...
@@benbarca Such an odd reaction to what was a thoughtful & vulnerable comment.
@@scottsherman5262
Agree.
It is frustrating. IMHO.. there are powerful political roadblocks.. powerful interests in the way. Liberal Democrats depend on pandering and coddling a certain demographic. Their political power depends on having dependent voters. And Black "leaders".. like Sharpton, Jesse Jackson.. they depend on keeping Blacks in a box of victimhood. The media keeps the greatest leaders (Sowell, McWhorter, W.E. Williams) out of view. To me, this is the systematic oppression.
Most people of different races want to see Black Americans succeed. The resistance is to the "opressor/oppressed" dynamic pushed.
@@benbarca
It took meer decades for black culture to become what it is today. They used to have more two parent households than even whites.
So all they would have to do is get back to the family values that helped them survive all those generations of oppression.
Before watching this, it's important to understand Murrary's thesis in "Coming Apart" IMO. I don't know what to make of black vs. white IQ, don't have an opinion. But it's fact that American economy is far more conducive to IQ and brain power in 2021 than ever before.... In the 50's, as Murray notes: the average math major could teach high school. Now they can work at hedge funds helping to create complex trading algorithms. IQ is an important topic in understanding today's class differences based on the information age/postindustrial economy..... How that translates to black/white IQ, I'll leave that to Murray.
@Antek Policmajster Yes and no. The Chinese are in some ways like the Nazi Germans: very good at math and science but more memorizers than innovators. We've been unable to liberalize China but that will come when/if we decouple and they have to innovate, creating a more open/creative society..... But you're right: our education system is a joke that offers neither strict memorizing or encourages innovation, it's just a colossal pile of ideological shit.
@@elements1985 Really interesting point and something I've wondered myself re: China's inability to innovate. It seems America will need to lead the charge of decoupling as we may be the worst offenders at present.
The Bell Curve was about IQ and its effects on social status and wealth, with Murray worrying about the *less intelligent* having fulfilling lives in a society where status and wealth is increasingly driven by IQ.
The ruling class made it all about race in their usual diversionary tactic from how they have been looting the rest of society.
@@buybuydandavis Agreed, and I'd add that for some it is a deeply scary concept that people are born unequal and in ways that we can measure. I believe they forget that we can draw a clear line separating someone's value as an individual and their intelligence as measured on an assessment
@@DDeCicco
Everyone knows that *people* are born unequal in IQ but get their panties in a wad over the suggestion that *peoples* are unequal in IQ.
So well done. I can see Coleman trying to handle this interview, and the profoundly difficult moral issue it raises, in a very ethical and honourable way.
things nonblack people say about black people being passive and subservient in situations where they would be outraged.
@@stanlearner5102 lmao yup. we see through the grift here. intellectual openness not for any real intellectual value, just for money from white people who lap this shit up.
@@supawavyman its so ridiculous. did you see Glenn Loury telling Tucker Carson that black people need to stop complaining about racism injustice less they upset white Americans to start acting white?! First tenured black economics professor at Harvard offering a subservient posture whites would NEVER adopt. Back to this. I can't believe how naive Coleman is, acting as if Murray is his soul brother. Dude! He is saying you are inferior to him!
@@stanlearner5102 its sad really. Loury is another joke tbh. Saw his recent discussion with Cornel West. West greets him and indicates he values some of his ideas/work and Loury goes onto say, "you know I'm a conservative right?". As if the conservative movement hasn't been silencing and jailing socialist/communist(leftist) for decades. This new soft spoken, self pity, "populist" just about ideas act the conservatives have taken up is probably their greatest grift yet.
@@supawavyman Loury soft peddled with Lamont Hill to sell the reissue of his archaic book on racial inequality. He goes in on the black community with McWhorter.
I was a jet pilot. That profession is the highest level of meritocracy anywhere, because obviously, of how much is on the line in money and life. There are virtually no black pilots. You either have a mind that can handle the load, especially in the weather and congested airspace, or you don't. this is just a fact, not an accusation. either we deal with the differences, or we avoid them and speak in secrets.
My guess is being a fighter pilot is more difficult. Well, here is one black who has the level of meritocracy and a mind that can handle it. ua-cam.com/video/lvbXUD9ZNKk/v-deo.html&feature=share
@@afreakan9838
“They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)”
Excerpt From
Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies
Steven Farron
This material may be protected by copyright.
Interesting. I don't doubt what you are saying, but then aren't there pilots in Africa?
@@Musicienne-DAB1995 this guy thinks the reason there was no black pilots was cause intellect & not opportunity or the fact this might of been 1973. Just goes to show being a jet pilot _does not_ require the highest of intelligence. This whole conversation has gotten me to realize *wisdom* is much more valuable than intellect.
@@sacbeme fr. I was laughing so much after his claim that jet pilot is the profession with the most meritocracy to ever exist 🤣.
He basically just claimed to be a genius based on his job, clqimed that that are no black people with the same job then even went a step further to claim that this is reality.
Crazy work.
Great interview Coleman. I always love your stuff. 2 points. 1st. Don't apologize to the censors for having an awesome and necessary conversation. If they can't see the value of this kind of exchange, they should go join their comrades in N. Korea or China--not be impacting you and your work. 2nd. I think Murray beat you bro! I'm used to seeing you win. But he put some great questions to you, and you didn't have much. "How would you address the cultural problem of black students bullying other black students who do good in school?" And "If you don't like what's been attempted to address the intelligence and educational gap, what do you propose?" Those are super solid, fair and valid questions. And you should find better answers to them. Murray was trying to move you into the Thomas Sowell territory of "well what are your concrete proposals and how are they better than what's been tried?" And that's a serious conversation. It's much easier to defend a vague position of criticism. Then we can all walk around with our hip disapproval. But it's corrosive, it builds nothing, it's a way of resisting the necessary though undesirable conclusions. You were brave to get into it with Murray. But he showed you what true bravery looks like, he followed the evidence and the logic all the way to the end. He said, "It doesn't matter." The difference is intractable. We don't have any new solutions to try. So we need to come to terms with it. And it's ok. It's ok if there are mean differences in IQ. It explains some of the achievement gaps. And a true though disliked explanation is better than a false though favored explanation(systemic racism!). My advice, don't be so insulted by the possibility of mean IQ differences. And 2nd, get rid of that scenario where you explain racial IQ differences to your kids! Tell your kids the truth! Racial IQ differences have nothing to do with what they are capable of! I liked how Murray pointed out that these are the size of differences between siblings. We're all just brothers and sisters, we can all succeed and do well.
This conversation reminded me of my grad school days. Discussing the issues in an impartial way, looking for the best solutions, I wish more conversations could be this productive.
We're trying to have a reasonable discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cenk uygur
Coleman's stance seems to be "Don't tell people as they'd be (generally) too foolish to understand"
While there's always been some truth to this, we've tried BOTH ways. And despite all the problems with going in the direction of tell people everything and let them figure it out, the opposite way he's advocating, we are seeing a lot where that mentality leads. And it is MUCH MUCH worse.
I agree suppressing inconvenient truths because some might react in a way you find unacceptable does not change the facts and won't help resolve the underlying issue. If Murray is correct that there are immutable genetic differences that cause outcomes then forced social engineered by equal outcomes is unjust.
We'd be heading off to the camps anyways, so it doesn't really matter when or how they find out, if this were to be true. Either that or excised from society and left to die off.
@@youpeopleareinsane1285 For what it's worth, I'd like to extend whatever love I can to you. The world is horrifying in 1000 ways, but I love you. As much as a random person who has never met you on the internet can.
Dumb question. Why should we be this concerned about changing black scores?
We have already fought a war to free the slaves and had a civil rights revolution in 1965 and we are still hearing the same old, same old.
What do you say to "its time to focus on whites test scores to get them up to Asian levels."
And that response is what Murray and Coleman both fear. White People actually thinking about their own interests for a change.
@Jo Fugya It depends on your perspective. For people like me who are denied opportunities because we are White, it is good. For grifting minorities and the overall stability of the country it is bad. After the 60s there was an implicit contract that whites wouldn't flex identity politics and blacks(who at the time were the only nationally significant minority) could practice it in moderation because of history. Now that the great replacement is happening, the short term stability can only be secured by the elites canablizing White American social capital. So I am for My People standing up against their destruction. I don't hate other people per se, but the future demographic and cultural hegemony of Whites must be secured in the US or else we will become a nuclear Yugoslavia.
All of the above.
China & Japan don’t commit cultural su*c*de just to appease a lesser group.
I'm white protestant. I have Jewish friends that I know that are smarter than me and I don't have jealousies. I admire my Jewish friends. I have Black friends that are better athletically than I am. I don't have jealousies against my Black friends. I admire them. Be what God has given you and don't covet your neighbor.
Exactly!
I'm white and I understand that certain Asian groups score higher on IQ than I. No big deal, just one more motivation to work harder. IQ has its limits, obvious but it needs to be said that every person needs to be judged on merit, not race.
Yeah if you ever speak to regular people about this topic always use the example of another race that scores better on IQ tests than white be it Asians or Ashkenazi Jews to make you look less like you are saying blacks are inferior to whites and more like you are saying asians are superior. Doing it this way makes it way more likely that the average person will listen to you even though you are presenting the same information. I've made the mistake before and had people threaten to get me fired and all sorts.
@@matthewtalbot-paine7977 True cowardice. I approve!
@Peter Kranz There are many things as important or more important than IQ - character, creativity, and imagination, to name a few.
@@samanthawhang7498 as far as sucess goes there is no more important predictor. Not even parent wealth.
@@matthewtalbot-paine7977 so your the weird guy who tries to tell all his coworkers about racial IQ differences even though no scientists say genetics is the reasoj
Coleman, a give to you the distinction of being "a minority of one."
The real issue is the legal theory of “disparate impact.” It posits that government has legitimate authority to redirect any system or policy that appears to produce disparity in outcomes on a group basis regardless of whether the system or policy is intentionally designed to produce the result motivated by animus toward the impacted group. It is the evil twin of disparate treatment, which is intentionally unjust discrimination.
It is a slip knot or back door for working around the constraints of the Constitution designed to protect inalienable individual rights. It is intended to open the door to an all powerful state that owns everything and distributes it “equitably” to assure “equity,” or whatever outcome is determined politically correct, because the same thinkers pushing “disparate impact” are pushing the postmodernist denial of objective truth, asserting instead that all that matters is power and all rights are positivist.
It would be more helpful if the podcast hadn’t led with a provocation for a title. It assumes the same intersectional struggle explanation for history as those pushing the “disparate impact” collectivist scam.
It occurred to me why Marx’s class struggle as driver of history explanation and it’s mutant successor intersectional group struggle are not only wrong, but weaponized intellectual concepts. The real driver of history is the struggle by free, self-governing, virtuous individuals to resist the relentless March by the political class to accumulate power. It’s not the “Capitalists” accumulating wealth that will be the death of us because wealth dissipates by the third generation. It is the political class accumulating power to become a ruling class - currently to ape the “China Model.” Where is the evidence of that ever dissipating?
The real driver of history is the struggle by free, self-governing, virtuous individuals to resist the relentless March by the political class to accumulate power.
How was it virtuous to just claim the land and displace indigenous Americans, break treaties and march them to some land that seems undesirable at the time?
@@sabinereynaudsf - who said it was? But what people anywhere in the world and throughout human history has not been subject to conquest by stronger nations or tribes?
One would have to intentionally ignore history to act like the earliest migrants to North America from Northeast Asia didn’t treat each other similarly long before Europeans arrived. The Ojibwa tribe conquered the Sioux and drove them out of the Northwoods onto the Great Plains.
And the Europeans had been treated similarly by other peoples. Should my Celtic people, the indigenous of Anatolia, conquered by the imperialist Turks who invaded from Central Asia and committed genocide against our ancestors, be shamed for it and made to return the land or pay reparations?
The notion that conquest is wrong only became virtuous with the end of the first phase of WWII in 1945 and the signing of the UN Charter.
@@sullinsea You said that, I copied that from your post. I was responding directly to what you wrote. I thought you were including what drove history in the past. Now you are framing history differently. Virtue has nothing to do with it, got it. That was my point exactly.
@@sabinereynaudsf - No I did not. Don’t try to put words in my mouth. You’re misrepresenting what I said and the definition and scope of virtue. Virtus is an internal societal characteristic. It may or may not have been present among various tribes of the early migrants to North America, but that didn’t stop them from conquering each other n and you are engaging in a logical fallacy used by those only interested in deconstruction instead of truth. In any case, your comments are a non-sequitur. The fact that every single human tribe or nation has either conquered or been conquered has nothing to do with the truth that the mover of history is the struggle between the sovereign people and the ruling class, not economic or intersectional struggle manufactured by collectivists, whether Socialists or National Socialists.
@@sullinsea You are not expressing yourself succinctly. I was not trying to put words in your mouth. There is no point in answering any of your assertions. Your sentences end up being a total gish gallop. And you will always claim to be misinterpreted. A piece of advise. Try to stay away from run on sentences.
Salient points made by Murray:
1. The society is already harmed by the infusion of critical race theory and white privilege, which are patently false. He is merely counterbalancing the narrative with the twin facts about race and genetics, which actually explain the differences in intelligence, test scores, and crime rates. This becomes critical once you have exhausted all means of engineering the environment to the advantage of the blacks - school, nutrition, etc.
2. Murray wants to help American society see the truth while at the same time preserve the American creed, which is why he wants to put the twin facts out there, while at the same time encouraging Americans to treat one another as individuals. The latter leverages the fact that there are individuals in the overlaps between the racial medians - the Oprahs, Denzels, and Barracks.
3. That this exposition produces a better trade off than not talking about it because the society is already poisoned (see point 1), and perhaps, exposing the truth is best ditch attempt to save the American creed.
4. The white elite in America are afflicted with white guilt and support narratives like critical race theory and white privilege. However, the middle- and lower-income whites don't think the same way because they haven't experienced any special benefits due to their race. They in fact aren't racist and abide by the American creed.
5. IQ scores are statistical scores that are true for prediction outcomes for a group; not for an individual.
I think Coleman hopelessly pursues his argument of shielding the public from Murray's discoveries about race, IQ and crime rates, which are scientifically proven, all in the interest of not adding to the racial tensions, all the while forgetting that the racial tensions are boiling over, that the society is unravelling, and that Murray's ideas and discoveries won't in any meaningful way add fuel to the fire. Coleman also fails to offer solutions to social cohesion and halting the unraveling, and only goes as far as saying something to the effect of "we need to find better ways."
Coleman Hughes has balls of steel.
No he is just verythoughtful.
metaphors abound... please explain what are balls of steel ?
or he is extremely naive and oblivious to the reality of why Murray wrote the book.
@@stanlearner5102 Oh no, blacks might feel bad while white kids get struggle sessioned because of racial blood libels. Real big brained move there Coleman.
@@johnowen271 it means he's brave.
It is much more useful to face up to reality, to the truth, and learn to cope with it, rather than to deny it.
@Daniel why not?
@@zalacainbilbao because... would you assume a random black person is of lesser IQ than a white person if you were an employer? To do so is racist, after all, this is an individual not a group. We recognize people as individuals. So of what use is it to bring up this topic. It functionally has no usage whatsoever.
There are billionaires with lesser IQ than some MENSA members. How do we evaluate someone's contribution to music, science, business... it's not solely intelligence. It's things like perseverance, grit, cunning-ness, ability to adapt. There are far more significant traits that benefit society than pure _"intelligence"_ . Which is why you'll never find an Asian country ( _"higher intelligence"_ ) getting sucked into this debate. They know its of no significance.
@@sacbeme I basically agree with you. But if something is true, it should still be faced up to.
I especially agree with you that individuals should be judged on individual merits, not on those of their perceived group characteristics.
@@sacbeme Great points and even Charles said there is still a LOT of overlap in intelligence across groups. For instance, he said you will find some blacks with higher IQs than some white folks and some white folks with higher IQs than Asians
I haven't heard a convincing rebuff of Murray's conclusions.
Can someone send me a link to peer reviewed empirical research that counters his understanding of the situation?
Why is it so hard to believe that different races have different gifts? Blacks have physical gifts, asians have mental gifts. So what?
Because we want everyone to be equal.
Addendum Coleman, as to your hypothetical IQ discrepancy between Democrats and Republicans, hasn't the MSM been telling Trump supporters (all 75 million of them) this very thing for the past 5-6 years?
If I had to bet, I would wager that if you asked other races about marrying outside of their own, whites would be the most tolerant of it. So I don’t think that poll proves much.
I agree with Murray. The dangers of moving from judging people as individuals to judging them as "members of a group" is much more dangerous than telling the truth about the reality of test scores. Please! There's no contest. Parents have to explain to their children all the time why they are not as beautiful as somebody else, or as rich as somebody else, etc. That's the plight of parents at all times. Learning that "your" group scores lower than "group C" or "group F" while scoring higher than "group H" shouldn't mean anything to any individual, exactly because he is NOT a group, he is an individual, the mean of the group has no influence on him as an individual! It could be that "your" group scored higher than all other groups so far compared to it, and it still wouldn't change a single thing about you as the individual you are! And it's the job of parents to explain that to a child, and of scientists to explain to journalists and others who for some reason don't want to accept that there are differences between groups, other than when they insist that there are differences between groups - much as depending on how the wind blows.
Agreed. The beauty example is an important one. It's far more unfair than differences between IQ points, LOL!
Kudos to Coleman for his open mindedness. His initial argument re group iq differences in the mainstream is not well supported. He could have said East Asians have higher iq than Black Americans and then this argument would take a different direction.
Wow. What an amazing conversation. Thank you Coleman for continuing to approach thoughts and issues that many people wouldn’t be caught near. I understand his reasoning of why he felt the need for this book, but I also think it’s a mistake because it’s just throwing gasoline on an already raging fire. Now, I watched this seven months after the video was released, and I have never heard of the book. So I think the mainstream media has wisely kept away from it. I also don’t see racial tension as high as it was seven months ago either. Political tension is still at a crazy high, and sometimes race gets used by both sides to stir people up, but I do think things are getting better. I think that this conversation has such great benefit when looked at as a whole, and I want to thank both of you for having this discussion.
Regardless of possible I.Q. differences, cultural differences will create a wealth gap, among other things.
Yeah, that's a good point. I.Q differences may be irrelevant. Systematic racism may not be the problem. If might come down to a preference to being with those who speak the same language, listen to the same music, and laughing at the same jokes.
you can't completely separate race from culture
Note that having a *less* money grubbing culture does not imply inferiority.
Yeh culture is the main problem , not many people recognise that.
Culture is driven by the collective IQ of the community...
Coleman I think you might underestimate the damage being done by falsities already pervasive in the culture. These could probably be resolved if we embraced the truth, however terrible it may be. And like Murray says, we cannot address the problem without understanding the reality of the situation. Great interview! Keep it up!
@Paranoia Agent the problem to be addressed is people are being lied to just to make them feel better. This has a real effect in people's lives, taking away their agency and responsibilities, which fundamentally make the lives of lower income black folks worse. It's all in the data. I wish it was just because white people are being pressured. But white people blaming themselves won't do anything unless the problems are addressed. That's kinda what the whole video was about.
@Paranoia Agent you're projecting so hard and everyone who reads your comments can see it.
In 100 years, we will still be having the same BS conversation regarding the same people.
Work hard, be a good person, look after your family, your life will work out fine. For the vast majority of people in the US.
However, when you consistently engage in bad faith conduct, make no effort to work hard or improve yourself and take no responsibility for future or your family, then you will have suboptimal outcomes.
End of story.
People have a hard time separating group differences from individual differences.
Yup, people who understand “on average” in almost all other areas of life are suddenly incapable in this one.
*Low iq people
What if “on average “ blacks are discriminated against based on this data?
@@meditation4632 That will happen, but they will be discriminated based on IQ score, not based on race
@@coles5451 No they will be discriminated based on RACE first.
I’m about halfway through this. I just subscribed and did the notification bell.
While I learn towards Murray’s position, you are still amazing at highlight concerns and disagreeing in ways that made me think in different ways regarding this issue.
I have read from both sides on this issue. I still lean towards Murray, though I think the crime issue is far more fixable than cognitive ability differences. It would be absurd to deny that environment plays a role, and I think Murray is clear that this does have an effect as well.
I have no issue accepting I'll never be a professional athlete, or a mathematician. I'm not equipped or inclined to do either. No force of will from outside me will ever change those objective realities. I know Coleman is orders of magnitude smarter than I am, and I'm happy for him. My life is a blessing, nonetheless.
@Yirlani Maybe there's more of an incentive to play sports among black Americans, not because they're more gifted at it.
@Yirlani Depends on the sport. There are many sports that have few Black athletes (long distance running, swimming, rugby, pole vaulting, archery, badminton, soccer, volleyball, weight lifting, crew, and so on). I know some people will say that it’s a matter of access, like having access to pools. Ok, but why don’t we see island or coastal countries like Jamaica being competitive in the olympics? Doesnt everyone have the ability to play soccer too? Even without a large field you can dribble the ball in your driveway. And if you access to a field to play football, you could play rugby as well. So why are these sports not dominated by Black athletes, while a few sports such as basketball and football are?
@@samanthawhang7498 Are you Talking about soccer across the world? There are African teams. Have you seen some of the teams in Europe such as France, UK, and Netherlands?
Your comment about how you want to promote open dialogue and have real conversations with people who hold controversial viewpoints is...exactly the reason why conversations on this topic need to be mainstreamed. Put simply: the truth is always going to get out eventually. It is the first people who spread the news that get to control HOW it comes out, and a libertarian like Charles Murray who stresses the value of the individual and evaluating them on a case by case basis is one of the best options for how we go about spreading that. If he doesn't, Richard Spencer types will.
Agreed- and the information is already out there. Nobody can avoid it or hide it.
When Coleman said he would resent a culture that forced him to have an IQ conversation with his child, I thought about how weird it would be to block birds and the bees and IQ differences in the same week.
Jokes aside, I appreciate that the conversation was held with nuance, no personal attacks, an extension of friendship, and empathy from both sides. Remarkable.
The birds and the bees, IQ, Jesus and Santa aren't real, you have to work you're entire life and nothing happens when you die. But Ice Cream is real, and look what I've got.... I think I could cover that in about 20min. To an 8 year old.
@@CerebralFriction lmao
@Danny Timms "aren't real" was referring just to Santa and Jesus. I was listing off discussion topics divided by commas.
@Danny Timms Yeah IQ is pretty fake. There are huge variances within repeated IQ tests for individuals, there's nothing objective about it. If you think that means psychology is fake, fine lol. I'm sure there are plenty of other soft sciences that you think are fake.
better than having a conversation about how whites are to blame for every short coming of everyone else, which is currently happening
Is it such a refreshing thing to see a conversation where people disagree without getting angry but actually taking the chance to go deeper with their questions and arguments. Thank you both for your honesty and candor and for really listen and engage with each other. As a viewer, it has been a very enriching discussion. I hope you both have a beer together one day.
Stupidity can be managed and productive it approved it with a village idiot
No matter the empirical differences between races, all that matters is equality of opportunity. Give everyone the same opportunity to succeed and if they don’t that is on them. Meritocracy ultimately creates a pyramid of competence and the only way to scale this pyramid is to be more competent than others in certain areas. We live in a society that rewards you on the basis of your contributions. If you want to succeed, pic a topic of interest that you can develop your competence in. Your success is reliant on yourself, so quite making excuses as to why you don succeed and do something about it!!!
Completely agree. And I don't think that Murray would disgree with that either, since he keeps stressing that you still have to treat people as individuals, no matter the averages.
Coleman: I have to congratulate BOTH you and Charles Murray for a very civil and enlightening discussion of a topic that is obviously very close to both of your hearts. If we could get more discussions where both sides who have different perspectives but are respectful of their opponent we could begin to do a better job of healing wounds and solving problems.
Its actually the second time I've listened to this conversation. Whilst I think Charles Murray has an important message, Coleman's leadership and ability to articulate sensitive topics is way way way beyond his years. I'm nearly double his age... and humbled !
I think CH is great but "leadership"? He admitted that he had no idea how to proceed given the total failure of all programs since the '70s. A leader must have a direction, not just a goal. CM doesn't seem much of a leader but he does at least have a direction even if it is only the least bad one.
@@SmileyEmoji42 I rather trust someone who doesn't claim to have all the answers than someone who does. I agreed broadly with both Hughes and Murray. My only disagreement was Hughes' fears regarding this conversation being made public. Nobody can hide these facts. People already discuss them.
Ok listened to it all now. It is intractable because we are focused on black white, and we will remain focused on it for a lot of reasons.
These differences exist in every single group you could name, but nobody cares. Male female, christian jew muslim, black white asian, immigrant from russia, immigrant from india...
It's emotional and political so it's going to be front and center.
While I agree that the discussion has been hijacked by the competition between two specific groups, maybe there is simply more fuel (i.e. more grievance and history of interracial conflict) for a bigger eruption if the reality of what Murray is laying out in "Facing Reality" isnt properly handled in our day to day sensemaking as a society when we discuss intelligence differences between blacks and whites.
“They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)”
Excerpt From
Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies
Steven Farron
This material may be protected by copyright.
This was extremely difficult to get through, I found myself feeling bad for both of them. Coleman got noticeably flustered in my opinion and Murray wasn’t giving totally clear answers during some moments.
That's the strategy when a huge proportion of your colleagues disagree with the fundamentals upon which your entire argument is based. If there is no significant genetic component to the black/white IQ difference then Murray's argument becomes much less compelling. The basic criticism that Coleman put forth - that culture plays a massive role - was something that Murray didn't even begin to address. He also failed to address the negative consequences of mainstreaming the debate that Coleman rightly pointed out; that telling black kids they are doomed because of their genetics makes education even more of a "white thing" when the exact opposite is what we need.
@Danny Timms Two examples come to mind of how powerful the influence of culture is within an ethnic community: 1. "Waiting for Superman" - documentary. Repeated attempts to overhaul, discipline and improve, i.e. "progress", education was met by teachers and parents in black public schools with strong resistance and intimidation and little to no accountability. As well as an abundance of money not solving the problem. 2. As much as I strive to cite the source in my examples my memory escapes me where I heard of a real life example of a police officer ( in L.A.? ) that "off-the-record" pointed to black kids playing in the streets after school while the kids of Korean descent were at home doing homework...and he said something to the effect: "This ain't rocket science. It starts at home. Guess which ones will succeed?"
@Danny Timms Got it. I hear your point more specifically as you mean it. It would seem that if you take a family's culture that was poor and uneducated for generations, then spun around and stronly emphasized education and degrees, that that would have a direct and potentially very impressive impact upon IQ, don't you think? I'm unfamiliar with the deeper complexities of the research, this is moreso riffing off the cuff. My brainstorm seems to follow your alluding to it needing to be traced and followed over generations.
I follow as well your second paragraph as to groups, not individuals. If it is 60% that sounds quite significant. Thank you for your thoughts and clarification on this matter.
I watched Murray's interview with Glenn Loury and he seamed surprisingly poor at expressing some of his ideas clearly and succinctly.
I was under the impression that Murray was a victim of SJWs, but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't think a scientist should be attacked for his work, but what he is trying to do is very problematic (I could use a much worse term) and goes beyond science. There is no way he is that dumb to not understand what would happen. At this point the only solution I see is to completely ignore race, not to base policy on it. Demonstrating that the US is not a systemically racist country might be important, but it's not nearly as important as other issues. Just ignore race. There should be a law against racial differences being used in policy making. That wouldn't solve the issue, but it would do the least damage.
What I would love to know is what level of lower IQ individuals (as tested) are highly conscientiousness (in the big 5 sense) and whether this can overcome (or at least minimise) the negative effects associated with lower IQ levels. One would assume less conscientiousness with high tested IQs simply have a greater room for mistakes.
The US military gives every enlisted person the asvab test prior to enlistment and places them based on their scores.
Yup by score not race
@@freeindeed8416
“They also pointed out (#376-7) that Davis could not use “poverty or family educational background … as a substitute for race” because “while race is positively correlated with differences in GPA and MCAT, economic disadvantage is not … [E]conomically advantaged blacks score less well than do disadvantaged whites.” (Amazingly, they did not see that this fact nullified their argument.)”
Excerpt From
Affirmative Action Hoax: Diversity, the Importance of Character, and Other Lies
Steven Farron
This material may be protected by copyright.
It's happening. I knew all the talk about racism from the left would wake up a talk about race from the right. This can get really ugly. But then, I remember a talk by JBP... sometimes the real peace comes after having a good discussion. As a society we're in the middle of that discussion. I already miss color blindness.
Amen on missing colorblindness. So much progress put us in so much of a better place. I wish we could all just turn and go aggressively at the future, but I guess we are going to have to go through this. With the rise of China, the timing is catastrophic and could actually spell the end of human freedom. Then we'll all be equal (but some will be more equal than others)
Murray predicted some sort of reaction, and this book is actually his attempt to get ahead of any backlash by diffusing the problem in the first place. Murray argues that the way we understand IQ isn't accurate, that it is a mistake to model our economy or society on this belief that IQ is a measurement of someone's intellectual worth. It doesn't measure your capacity for knowledge, it doesn't measure what you already know or what you can learn, it is simply a measurement of the mind's mental agility. It is like measuring someones physical agility, like how fast can someone run a mile? If they can do a 4 minute mile, does that make them a better choice for my Olympic track and field team than someone who runs a mile in 8 minutes? Yes definitely. Does that make them worth more as a person? Hell no, it's just so that the guy who runs an 8 minute mile simply wont be the first choice as a long distance runner. However the way we currently use IQ is to rank the individual worth of people and to do so without recognizing the reasons why we are wrong is exponentially worse than having an open conversation
@@dakkagaming671 the thing is that that mental ability is suspected to be the thing which takes an individual to a better social and economic position, right? Isn’t that what basically the “Bell curve” book says? And hence, the left doesn’t want to admit this because it would require of them a complete change in strategy.
@@MrLymo ua-cam.com/video/mBt75tpJ07I/v-deo.html
@@dakkagaming671 Intelligence is everything, and we (my group) have none apparently. if crime and poverty are the only things we're capable of providing to the world, then that "value as an individual" shit is nothing more than an empty platitude. A participation trophy, really. No one wants us around, and it's apparent where this will all lead. A couple of outliers and "good ones" won't change anything.
Thank you Coleman, for having the kind of difficult, nuanced discussions our society needs to have. I think you both made some excellent points. Fantastic interview (and guest), and just one more example of the important value you are bringing to our society. Please, please keep up the difficult, but great work!
I do like the fact in America you can't say something that is true. Truth is if you don't have a higher iq you will probably live in poverty. Using a keyboard is important to success. So what job can an average or low iq do not to be in fear of being homeless since Clinton. Sent all the jobs to China that normal people used to do. Are you going to build semiconductors?