Yeah, fascinating stuff. I know a lot of this stuff from study in a galaxy far, far away, haha, but he goes deep and puts the ideas together in an interesting way. Definitely going to check out his articles (although Coleman's right... a book is in order, lol).
@@pjacobsen1000 Thanks for the heads-up on 2 channels. I just subscribed to the one and was going to check out the Pinker interview. Will have to find the other one as well. Fascinating stuff.
This explains why my German husband with all German grandparents had zero German genetics. His results came back as geographically from all around Germany, north, west, south and East. He is basically all of Europe!
Most East Germans are basically Slavic. It's kinda funny cause when you look at a map of the old Soviet Union and it's East European satellites, and you sought to unite the Slavic world, like a prophecy, in a very real sense, with the exception of Yugoslavia, that was done from 1945 til 1991. I believe even the German capitol city of Berlin is a derivative of the Slavic language. The Nazis went through great lengths to hide the Slavic reality of eastern Germany. Austria is also considered East European, and once formed the Austria-Hungary nation. It's an interesting study indeed.
@@doubleutee2100 the fact that Germany is so disparate with its regions and dialects to this day proves how the Nazis were trying to unite a people that really weren’t a people at all. Germany is just a patchwork of regions of former mini kingdoms
I recall that Nazi archaeologists uncovered a Neolithic village that was much more sophisticated than they had expected for such an ancient site - it was built in artificially raised land in a marshy area, with a planned street grid, paved with logs, timber houses, surrounded by a timber wall. The find was trumpeted as evidence of German superiority, but continuing work revealed artifacts that unequivocally identified the site as being from a Slavic culture. The Nazis just suppressed the latest findings and stopped talking about the site.
What Khan said about Germany was very broad and simple. There is a core German DNA. Northern Germans, for instance, are more Scandinavian-shifted than Southern Germans, owing to strong Celtic admixture in the latter. Many people are unaware that not every local German is a native. Many Germans are descendant of assimilated immigrants from Poland, Russia, and other regions of Europe, so German by culture. However, this does not negate the fact that a core Germanic ancestry exists throughout Germany.
Long time Razib stan here! He's probably the best public figure that has both an exhaustive expertise in both genetics and history. His Substack is well worth subbing to. Most of essays combines these two disicpines into very compelling narratives.
@@jordandthornburg They're not totally arbitrary. They're based on appearance wich correlates with genetics to a very high degree. Race is very real and important when building a society.
@@overtonpendulum2071 they’re mostly arbitrary. When you see a person with a “white” mother and a “black” father and they’re considered “black” it is clear it is mostly arbitrary. Of course different skin tones exist. No one disputes that. How does that correlate to the categories of “race” that we have created?
8:14 Razib Khan: "The Avar Empire, the Avars were Turks" The Avars were not at all the same in origin. The Turkic Ogurs were considered to be "Pseudo-Avars". Ancient genomes reveal origin and rapid trans-Eurasian migration of 7th century Avar elites "However, the texts do not agree on who these Avars were, or where exactly they came from. In fact, the Turks claimed that they were only Pseudo-Avars who had appropriated the prestigious name Avars and the lofty title of khagan but were in reality Ogurs, a Turkic-speaking people in western Central Eurasia. While we can conclude that the Rouran most likely called themselves Avars, to what extent the European Avars were descended from them has been debated (Dobrovits, 2003; Pohl, 2018)." "Our results provide robust genetic support for the Northeast Asian ancestry of the Avar-period elite in the core region of the Avar empire (DTI) from the middle third of the 7th CE to the early 8th CE Carpathian Basin (early to middle Avar period). We show a striking genetic match with a Rouran-period individual as well as with ancient individuals from Xiongnu and especially Xianbei periods from the eastern Asian steppe. During the late Avar period, we observe a shift among the elite in the Avar core area toward a more recently admixed ancestry. Even if late Avar individuals still preserve a predominant northern East Asian component, the western Eurasian source that best fits the remaining 20%-30% of their ancestry is mostly a non-local one (i.e., it does not match the gene pools of the available preceding Carpathian Basin populations)."
You'd think so, but apparently he was cancelled as a recent hire for The New York Times when certain progressive activists started digging into his work and posts and found all sorts of "offensive" subject matter on race and genetics. NYT of course caved and let him go.
It's refreshing to know there are still ppl who rely on the data in conjunction with external data and aren't biased, also willing to say the work is on going there a particular conclusion should not be assumed...love razib haha
As a Jat from Rajasthan I can confirm about our steppe ancestry and according to DNA reports available publicly percentage of steppe is 40 percent among the Jats of Haryana/Rajasthan/UP due to less mixing
@@phoenixj1299Literally the DNA reports, as mentioned in the original comment. Haryanvis are 35-45% sintashta & also notorious for being most warlike people
Coleman, you're great, but if there's any way you could mike yourself so that we don't hear your loud slurping as your guest speaks, I, and those similarly afflicted with misophonia, would be extremely grateful.
Thank you so much! I scrolled through the comments, hoping someone else had mentioned this. Sadly, I only got about ten minutes in, and had to stop. The sniffing was doing my head in, too.
My son has that misophonia, bad. Only time he was fearless talking to me, was chewing in his ear by accident. I almost killed him, but I'm not sure he wouldn't of killed me first. I can understand the being annoyed, even somewhat extremely annoyed, but my son gets violently annoyed. Calm tf down
She just looks Portuguese, but even if her great great great great grandmother was of SSA origin , she would be what,1% and MTDA recombines with 50/50 in every child, so it’s more difficult to track. What deep ancestry has taught us today, that you are the seed of your father because 100% passes down in men each time in only males. One thing we know for certain though, lookership is not a dependable or accurate method to measure ancestry. North Africans are still a Caucasiod people and have been for 40k+ years because that’s where the root came from. There is no single point of human origin. They evolved in different parts of the African continent. We also have Peking Man who is far older than the modern human remains we found in Africa. The models have not been updated.
It’s funny you’re mentioning that north africans are caucasoid meanwhile they’re from the same lineage as Somali and Ethiopian peoples. They’ve had alot of admixture from coming from Europe. That's why lot's of them come with white skin. meanwhile 3000 years ago north africans looked closer to Somali and had dark skin, like southerners from india still do. But I agree that horners and north africans share a common ancestor with Europeans. Perhaps you associate "keen" features with "caucasoids" if I'm not mistaken?
@@lazairance Caucasiods have always been in the Levant & North Africa because that’s where they came from. That’s been proven genetically over and over again. Also Natufians have a WHG component. 12k years ago there were waves of Back to Africa Migrations from Eurasia during the Neolithic Revolution as well.
@@acaydia2982 they came from the horn* The ethiopians and somali NEVER left the continent. They’re genetically the same as 10000 yrs ago. And them migrations back into Africa aren’t actually proven their just hypothesis.
What a terrific and important interview. I'm incredibly impressed with both Coleman and Razib. Coleman, please have Razib on again so he can talk about other ethnicities and other related subjects Razib deep dives into. If I took a DNA history test I'd be one of those who wanted to know if a higher % of my DNA came from a Central Asian grain farmer versus an Irish sheep herder.
Even with genetics too, it's hard to figure out phenotype sometimes. Having a "black" doesn't mean someone would look remotely black African. Like Coleman I'm a mixed Puerto Rican (23% Sub Saharan African, 70% European and 7% Native American) and I look like some random guido from Queens.
He’s not a mixed Puerto Rican though. He’s mom is the mixed Puerto Rican who’s mostly Europeans & native. He’s dad is American who’s mostly of African ancestry with a small % of European. He looks “black” because more than half of his ancestry is. You look like a random guido because you’re mostly white with ancestry probability from southern Europe. Makes perfect sense!
I wonder how you get the 7% Native American figure, is that through an ancestor of North American Indian descent, or through the Puerto Rican (Carib/Taino?) ancestor? Native American ancestry can’t be identified from DNA testing because the Nations generally boycott contributing to those databases.
This was a pretty interesting conversation but in my personal opinion I would have liked to hear more about the genetic makeup and history of Africa and Africans outside of the surface level Cleopatra conversation. I think African history, culture and genetics is very misunderstood sometimes even intentionally. An episode covering Cushitic ancestry. Ta-Seti civilization and the Nabta Playa herders would be interesting.
@@total_leftie I'm not a geneticist I'm an Aerospace engineer with an affinity for African history. They spent a lot of time talking about Cleopatra and how those islanders were not Africans instead of discussing what is measurably the most genetically diverse people on the face of the planet. That's why I'm asking
@@themac9677 if you want to direct the questions you're gonna need to do it yourself, is what i'm saying. coleman will have the questions he is interested in hearing answers to, i will have mine, you will have yours.
@@total_leftie No I understand that. What I'm saying is throughout the interview they spent a majority of their time talking about people who are not Africans and no time talking about who African people actually are. If you're going to talk about the human genome and not enter Africa into the conversation it's just a little bit superficial and that's whether I'm asking the questions or not. Kind of like talking about Americas fight for independence but skipping over the revolutionary war
@@themac9677 i don't really understand why it is superficial to specialise in particular areas. perhaps razib has purposefully chose to leave certain areas because you can catch heat for saying things that people don't want to accept. i haven't watched the whole thing so i will admit am finding it difficult to grasp your point entirely, but i don't think it's a requirement of anyone to have to speak about anything, and quite the contrary, when people are more zoned in they tend to be more accurate - rather than the jack of all trade types.
I watched this because you had Razib Khan on. I read everything he puts out. Thanks for the interview, and now I'm a subscriber to this series as well.
I listened to this on .75x speed and it was much more pleasant (bc this guy talks very fast and doesn’t always finish his sentences, so it takes a little extra focus).
Razib seemingly has no social filter! I kinda appreciate that. A lot of this was roughly familiar to me from the published work and discussion of David Reich and others much more guarded in their assertions... Which I appreciate, but for me it's kinda beautiful to see the social filters mostly off. As is always the case with science discovery, it's probably 50% to 33% right/wrong... but the filtering is "concerning"??? Honestly I don't have a strong opinion...
@@nenirouvelliv nope, iindian's do not have have r1b haplogroup so they r not european they have only r1a haplogroup whereas european have both r1a ( origin around 20000-25000bce) and r1b( 12000-18000bce )..... so that's mean they were same people before ice age and yamnaya people had r1a and r1b whereas jaat of iindia do not have r1b......
@@urrasscal8380 The steppe element in Indians is descended from a very specific subset of steppe-herders, the Andronovo people, who were mostly r1a. R1b was probably present only in the westermost steppe tribes that became the ancestors of the Bell-Beakers. The pre-IE Harappans were mostly R2 and L1 lineages, mix of indus valley farmers and proto-dravidan tribes.
Thanks, Coleman. I have watched 7-8K conversations on UA-cam in the past 5 years and this was as good as almost any. Razib Khan is that happiest of men, The Happy Warrior.
This episode was a mind blow. The guest is next level brilliant. I was so stimulated during the entire conversation and carried away in the things the guest was saying that Coleman caught me off guard with the most incredible thing that has happened to me. Driving while listening to this episode, I almost wrecked with laughter when Coleman pulled the most hilarious comment in all podcast history. That line about comparing himself to Obama and Elizabeth Warren almost had me in a wreck because of the convulsive and hysterical laugh that I uncontrollably found myself in. I was helpless against that quip. Never ever in all podcast listening history have I been so caught off guard and had laughter erupt out of me like a volcano. It was pure brilliance. I was so caught off guard. Master piece from start to finish. I will listen to this at least 3 more times.
This is what interviews with a scientist used to look like. 'Here's what we've discovered. It's really interesting. This is how we know it's true, to the extent that it's the best model representing reality that we've come up with so far.' Brush of the silly stuff gently but firmly. No time wasted placating idiots, deal with falsifiable, testable theory only. I suppose that is mind blowing today, and that is indescribably sad.
Great interview. You can tell Razib is passionate and knows his stuff about genetics and archaeogenetics. Interesting how he brought up Indo European mixing with the Mitanni in northern Syria and how their Charioteers were Indo-European, these does not seem to have had an impact on their language, as Hurrian is a language isolate. And yes, modern Egyptians are the descendants of Ancient Egyptians.
The Bantu expansion, in many ways, parralels Indo European expansion. I think if more people understood this then we'd have a more intelligent conversation about "race" and culture. Today many people, across Eurasia, South Asia, North Africa and the Americas have some amount of Indo European lineage and if you can understand this conversation then you are, at least partly, Indo European culturally. This has been a dumb taboo to talk about since WWII but we need to have these conversations, especially as Americans.
@@avengemybreath3084 Thanks, I'll need it. One things that's kind of funny is that the "Aryans" got their asses kicked by guys with names like Yeager, Eisenhower and MacArthur. People need to lighten up about this stuff.
@@S.J.L Agree completely, although Razib, being south Asian, has more right to call himself Aryan than any German. I wholeheartedly agree these conversations are desperately needed, but the establishment benefits too greatly from the stilted, and false, narratives around race that have been used to divide all of us. They won't let the facts get in the way of their "divide and conquer" programming.
I have to do a lot of census data mining for my job and usually have to read the questions on the census itself to be able to interpret the data properly. The 1930 census was the first time that "Indian, Chinese, Japanese, or other race" showed up. 1940 and 1950 was "white, black, other." 1960 had white, black, and then it had Puerto Rican or Spanish surname and then also broke Puerto Ricans down into white and nonwhite. It also had boxes for Indian, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, other races. Asian & Pacific Islander didn't show up until 1980. The way that these questions wind up on the census is there a political and it's usually from pressure from interest groups. In the case of Spanish surname, Hispanic, Asian and Pacific islander showing up on the census, it's because those groups were pressuring Congress to put it on there. It's some of the terms are relics from the 19th century but but they do change with whatever the PC term of the time is. There's also a lot more fine detail that gets collected in the Census American community survey that we don't really have access to from 100 years ago. Like I can zoom in to a zip code and see how many Hispanics live there, and then among those I can see how many Puerto Ricans, hiw many Cubans, Venezuelans, Salvadorans, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, to the extent that race is a social construct, the census is just using it in the way that it's understood at the time, or at least in the way that it's being pressured to understand it.
23:30 23andMe® does provide the Y-chromosome. Different Ancestry Information By Sex "The paternal assignment in the Paternal Haplogroup Report, however, uses DNA that is only inherited by males. Since this haplogroup assignment is traced through the Y-chromosome DNA, which women do not inherit, the assignment is only available for males." "Sex chromosomes determine if you are female (XX) or male (XY). Women inherited two copies of the X chromosome - one from each parent - while men inherited one X chromosome from their mother and one Y chromosome from their father." "Since women do not have a Y chromosome, 23andMe cannot directly provide a Y-chromosome haplogroup (also known as a paternal haplogroup) to women in the Paternal Haplogroup Report. This haplogroup assignment is traced through the Y chromosome, which women do not inherit. Women have the option to connect the haplogroup assignment of a father or brother to their Paternal Haplogroup Report."
For what it's worth, there's quite a few words in Black American English that appear Scots Gaelic and Irish in origin. Drawers for underwear is from drathais (pronounced drah-has), bonnet, as in the big poofy hat women wear at night to protect their hair is from bonnaid (pronounced bon-age). In standard English, a bonnet is a tight little hat women used to wear. A lot of the underlying grammar of Black American English, particularly that of the South, has oddly Gaelic sentence structure. He does be, she don't be, it be etc. It's not as obvious today now that much of the original Southern Black language has faded away, but if you read the word for word speech of Black slaves and former slaves, it's like they're speaking with English words in Gaelic word order. Perhaps there's a West African similarity there that made learning the speech of poor Southern Scots-Irish an easier task than that of their wealthy, more standard English speaking masters.
I'm from Europe. I've encountered the term "Caucasian" in the past and have always wondered what it meant, why the sudden interest in the Caucasus. That it is a term for white people has only now dawned on me. Anyway, then - the moment when Coleman has to prove the existence of women as a biological sex... I, for one, was prepared to "respect" the consensus that there is a biological sex and then that "gender" (even though I have my doubts about that - but I don't know about it, so just "ok"). But this next phase, where "ok, gender ... we agree on that. Now let's abolish the biological part altogether". And I don't blame Coleman for that - but that he feels the need to preemptively defend himself and summarize his arguments for the existence of gender is sad enough.
This was so incredibly interesting. It’s been a long time since I learnt so much in one single podcast. Well done to Coleman and Razib for producing such a thoughtful and insightful conversation 👏👏👏
Huge fan of Razib for quite some time! His content has been mostly paywalled for a while, but now I know it's because it's worth paying for! Subscribing to the substack today!!
Funny... Though I can notice it if promoted, it didn't draw my attention while listening, and I certainly wasn't bothered by it. Think it might be one of those things that's just an unchosen human variability... genetic or environmental?? Anyway... Since some significant portions of listeners are affected... maybe he could just get a good copy of some digital audio cleanup software and run it through as standard practice. I've found that even running it in auto mode makes massive improvements, but perhaps not enough for those more sensitive. Obviously he's not able to retain pro sound engineering at this point. We've all gotten used to the big studio operation production standards, which small operations, even with today's technology assists are difficult to replicate.
Good interview. Coleman may need to investigate ways to improve his sound quality. Picking up on a few very distracting sounds throughout. Less sensitivity on the mic perhaps
Haha😂. Same here. I assume that it's a subscription based collection of data (papers, videos, graphs, ECT..) I'm just guessing that from context clues, but I really have no idea.
This guy was actually really interesting to listen to, I would love to watch more about him explaining the ancestral makeup of different ethnic groups.
This was really entertaining!! I started off thinking “I’m not going to warm to this guy!” Then we got into the possibility of genomic eradication of hereditary disease - and I liked him even less. (Probably because I misinterpreted what he was setting out?) But then he got into broad-sweep genomic analysis - and, Wow! - how utterly fascinating was that. Thanks to both of you for a REALLY interesting conversation !!
I ridiculed(in my head) people that claimed race is a social construct. Yet defining significant differences is about isolated pools of genes, not melanin content.
@ayyleeuz4892 Genetics don't explain arbitrarily drawn political designations anymore than geology explains arbitrarily drawn national borders (no, society and culture explain them).
@ayyleeuz4892 Dude, we could enter a never ending rabbit hole of semantics. Language evolves and opinions change. *Here's the thing* , I probably have different ideas about the realness of "race", than you do; but then again, we probably have different tastes in _women, wine, food, books and music_ . It is what it is.
@ayyleeuz4892 Dude, that's your opinion, and guess what? I simply don't share your opinion. But let me ask something, if you couldn't guess my so-called "race" if you knew the type of women I like, the kind of wine I drink, the kind of food I like to eat, the books I like to read or the music that I listen to, what's the point of race? I could answer a battery of questions about my values,, desires, hopes and dreams and you _still_ couldn't identify my so-called "race" (without actually seeing me). At best you might identify my class or education level; so what's the point of slotting me (or yourself) into a static category when we live in an increasingly fluid world?
This guy is all sooooo clever , his knowledge and remembrance of all the facts is outstanding, I can't even remember what exact ages my kids are without thinking about it.
This is so amazing! Razib Khan has so much information he should write a book too. Definitely going to his website/blog. His reading list on Goodreads is over 1400 books as well. I’m definitely looking up more pics of him 🔥
If only the person handling the sound would mute the mic when someone takes a drink. Or, simply PUSH THE MIC AWAY as you take a drink. Seems pretty simple.
Here I am, listening to this episode again bc it’s so damn interesting and honest and it’s so clear that they both have sincere motives to help everyone. The BEST! Thanks again!
Love this topic. Love you, Coleman. Piece of constructive criticism: nasal sounds and clearing of mucus sounds in the mic aren’t conducive to focusing on what the guest is sharing. Oh, and the loud beverage slurping and nasal passage clearing…
I like and respect Razib, but he was wrong about the idea of the Romans castrating their male slaves as much as the Muslim world did. With the Muslims, it was almost all of the African slave men. With the Romans, slavery was much more organically integrated with society. Slaves in great numbers were allowed to earn money and eventually buy their own freedom. They had official status as Freedmen, wore the Roman iron ring of a free man, and a special cap of a newly freed slave. This was both a mark of pride for the newly freed man, but also, since most people stay where they are for most of their lives, folks wont keep treating them like the slaves they've been for the whole time most people there had known them, because they'd see the cap and ring. Also, that culture had the Freedman usually take the last name - the "cognomen" of the former Master. That Master would have that Freedman as what they called his Client. The Client would regularly visit to see if anything was wanted, but also would be given contacts and other help by the Master. This way his Client group, also his entourage, would be more capable and useful - a win-win situation. This made Freedmen a valuable input at the lowest level of Roman society, of trained workers who had the motivation to work hard, and the training to do specific tasks with expertise, in a way that no other free workers in large numbers were available, anywhere. These uncastrated Freemen had not just some kids, but achieved in some cases very high status and wealth in Imperial Roman society. The Castrato that Razib mentioned was a specialist type of slave from later post Empire Italy, when young singer slaves were castrated - thus called castrato - to save their trained tenor or soprano voices from the voice-change of puberty.
Bro, take this as positive criticism. That "mhming" every 5 seconds as well as the slurping and other noises you make are annoying beyond measure. You have very nice content but those types of mannerisms make it almost unbearable. You need to practice a lot to get rid of those habits.
Fascinating conversation. Nice to see the speaker so passionate about his expertise. I'm still researching about my own family tree 🌴in The Seychelles. My mother Chinese / African and my father French /Portuguese. It would be great to have a conversation with Razib Khan.
Most fascinating nugget of information (at least for me): there is no unified German genetic cluster. It's also quite ironic, given key elements of Germany's history.
@ayyleeuz4892 Er, Germany became a state after the Franco-Prussian war in 1870-71 -- a fair bit more than 100 years ago. Besides, I don't know what that has to do with what I've said. People groups can be genetically unified, even if they're not a state. Meanwhile, states can exhibit a great deal of genetic diversity (the U.S., for example). Whether a people group has organised itself as a state really has no bearing on its genetic homogeneity.
Love to see the corroboration of conclusions drawn from the area of historical linguistics using modern population genetics! I known linguists who with population geneticists in places where creoles have developed through Atlantic triangular trade, and using genetics in tandem with linguistics has helped their team figure out which varieties of the creole preserve the most traits of the earlier forms of creole. Amazing collaborative work!
Dang this was a good one! I rarely make time to listen to hr+ conversations and this one of those rarities. Show should be retitled _Get Canceled with Coleman_
Interesting discussion. But the guest jumps around talking about linguistics, genetics and social history, and the host can't slow him down and bring out useful details.
A DNA test can only tell you what you are, but not who you are. The 'who you are' is the same for all of us: 'You are what you do when it counts' - John Steakley. Unlike your DNA, the 'who you are' must be earned every day.
Incorrect. Your genes determine what your abilities are, your personality and a host of other things. Who you are is deeply informed by the the DNA that made you.
@@thinking-ape6483 I agree with you. Our genes have significant influences on us. The statement above is meant to express the opinion that your personal identity should not be deeply tied to your genetic past. That pride is reserved for personal accomplishment, not an accident of birth.
@ayyleeuz4892 Nonsense for not taking credit for things you never did? I don't think so. There's no species of pride that is more hollow, superficial, and undeserved than the ancestral variety .
@@thinking-ape6483How can coded (or non-coded) sections of nucleic acids determine if someone will be an introvert vs an extrovert for example? Or if they'll love chicken but hate turkey? Super intrigued for your response.
Its definitely interesting. The Romans thought of their concurrent greek neighbors as asiatic, and their culture was thought of as oriental in nature. Check out what the romans wrote about Elagabalus.
Much more than gender is. To me culture is way more important than color. Because skin changes along our history just like brains do. What makes someone unique is far more than superficial characteristics. Culture is beautiful, unless it tries to erase other cultures, such as communism which is now infecting the west, in the name of equality and diversity. It's nothing but ideological subversion. See Yuri Bezmenov.
RACE is NOT a Social Construct. He just said it, they both did! It is based on biology ie physical reality GRANTED that physical reality has social constructs built on top of it. Ppl gotta stop saying that. I mean the definition of social constructs on google is now including examples of it like Race and Gender which are Biological truths, quantifiable and repeatable truths be they always evolving as do the understanding of things.
@Ralph_Beckman LOL if you think my word is god then to you I guess it is lol. But I agree race is Very losly defined at its core but that's because genetics is simply extremely complex and 5hese phenotypes bleed in with each other and very groups across time and the planet. But again even with that its still not a social construct. I think ppl confuse the social constructs layered on top of race as race itself.
"gender" is *not* a biological term. It's a linguistic (social) term, later adopted by anthropologists and sociologists *because it refers to something different* from "sex". If you If you intend to mean "sex" (i.e. biology) then don't use the word "gender". This is not a "woke" position, it is an etymological one.
There is variation in every population. Race is a social construct because there is no boundary separating races. Even gender is variable, some people are inter-sex. Everything, race, gender, etc. exists on a spectrum.
@mikeg2306 There are variances between homosapiens and Race is simply (from a biological) stance just the grouping of those variances. These variances range from hormonal differences, energy express differences, bone density, muscles types, respiratory variances, hair and genetic marker variances I mean there's over 100 years of study. What ppl are doing is taking the fact that we are all Homosapiens ie like 90+% the same to ignore the biological differences that we do have. HUMANS ARE DIVERSE! We are diverse in our concepts of morality, in our beliefs, in our sexualties, in our SEX, and in our GENETIC MAKE UP. I don't understand why that TRUTH is soooooooo hard for ppl to except 😶
I subscribed to Razib Khan's sub stack. His articles were so full of unexplained jargon and demanded so much prior knowledge that I only understood about ten percent of it. So I didn't renew my subscription. If you subscribe, good luck.
@@pathologicaldoubt Lol dude he literally just tweeted about how he's not trying to make his pieces extra ingestible and knows he's writing for a smaller slice that can grok the meaty subjects he's talking about.
I started subscribing to his Substack about two years ago with almost no higher education in the hard sciences and I found it to be really helpful in understanding such an incredibly complex field as population genetics. I think if you are someone who is curious about human history deep into the past it is well worth the price. His writing is dense with information but it’s a rewarding read every time. There’s really no one doing quite what he’s doing in the way that he’s doing it rn, it’s cool to see him getting the exposure:)
Hi @Coleman, great interviews as always. Not sure this was mentioned to you before, but could you please turn off your microphone, or move away from it when you drink, or sniff 😅 Cheers
Given the mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome DNA tracking directly, I would be very interested to see independent genetic studies of the proportion of American Black DNA that is Irish on the mother's lineage vs fathers lineage. Might be an absolutely ground shaking chunk of data there.
If you walk from Scotland to Sudan you will never see any distinct break in the appearance of the people you pass each day. But you will find pale skinned (all but blue) people around you at the beginning of your walk and tall skinny people a dark charcoal colour at the end of your walk. Americans divide the world into five "types" of people because those are the five most easily recogniseable divisions. 50% of all human genetic variability is found within the continent of Africa. Ro claim African heritage is very slightly less significant than claiming human ancestry.
43:30 On the causation point, my husband is Eastern European and when he came to America he had no idea what caucasian meant, he thought it probably means Asian, and it was on every official public form! 😂 Conversely, a friend of mine from Armenia is actually Caucasian and she has brown skin, and always marks Caucasian and gets weird looks from people because she looks Mexican but she is not. She’s literally from right near Caucasus mountains, she’s more Caucasian than any white American person. But Americans think it means white. Unfortunately I think for jobs if she marks Caucasian they will be less likely to hire her (without meeting her, based solely on application) if they want someone “diverse” and wouldn’t even know that her skin color is not at all white. Very interesting.
![Woke Racism with John McWhorter [S2 Ep.40]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gT9qMq0faCQ/mqdefault.jpg)
What a great guy! You can just feel his immense enthusiasm for genetics. He's like an overstimulated child talking about what he saw at the circus.
Yeah, fascinating stuff. I know a lot of this stuff from study in a galaxy far, far away, haha, but he goes deep and puts the ideas together in an interesting way. Definitely going to check out his articles (although Coleman's right... a book is in order, lol).
@@brek5 He's got two UA-cam channels which I am just getting started on. Steven Pinker and Glenn Lowry are both his guests (on different videos).
@@pjacobsen1000 Thanks for the heads-up on 2 channels. I just subscribed to the one and was going to check out the Pinker interview. Will have to find the other one as well. Fascinating stuff.
@@brek5 Be aware that just like here with Coleman Hughes, he's a 'long talker'. But as long as he's interesting, it's fine with me.
I listen to most interview podcast in 1,5 - 2 playback speed, I didn't need to listening to this pod!
This explains why my German husband with all German grandparents had zero German genetics. His results came back as geographically from all around Germany, north, west, south and East. He is basically all of Europe!
Most East Germans are basically Slavic. It's kinda funny cause when you look at a map of the old Soviet Union and it's East European satellites, and you sought to unite the Slavic world, like a prophecy, in a very real sense, with the exception of Yugoslavia, that was done from 1945 til 1991. I believe even the German capitol city of Berlin is a derivative of the Slavic language. The Nazis went through great lengths to hide the Slavic reality of eastern Germany. Austria is also considered East European, and once formed the Austria-Hungary nation. It's an interesting study indeed.
@@doubleutee2100 the fact that Germany is so disparate with its regions and dialects to this day proves how the Nazis were trying to unite a people that really weren’t a people at all. Germany is just a patchwork of regions of former mini kingdoms
@@scarba Apparently, quite true indeed!
I recall that Nazi archaeologists uncovered a Neolithic village that was much more sophisticated than they had expected for such an ancient site - it was built in artificially raised land in a marshy area, with a planned street grid, paved with logs, timber houses, surrounded by a timber wall. The find was trumpeted as evidence of German superiority, but continuing work revealed artifacts that unequivocally identified the site as being from a Slavic culture. The Nazis just suppressed the latest findings and stopped talking about the site.
What Khan said about Germany was very broad and simple. There is a core German DNA. Northern Germans, for instance, are more Scandinavian-shifted than Southern Germans, owing to strong Celtic admixture in the latter. Many people are unaware that not every local German is a native. Many Germans are descendant of assimilated immigrants from Poland, Russia, and other regions of Europe, so German by culture. However, this does not negate the fact that a core Germanic ancestry exists throughout Germany.
This is a fascinating interview. Great job as usual, Coleman 👏
except for the gross slurping.
Long time Razib stan here! He's probably the best public figure that has both an exhaustive expertise in both genetics and history. His Substack is well worth subbing to. Most of essays combines these two disicpines into very compelling narratives.
lol no where close to the best, but one of sure.
Population genetics can also have important implications for medicine. Shouldn’t be brushed under the rug to appease ideology.
Absolutely 👍
And yet it will be brushed under the rug, at everyone's expense.
Of course that shouldn’t. Genetics are very real. That doesn’t make the arbitrary constructs we have of “race” real though.
@@jordandthornburg They're not totally arbitrary. They're based on appearance wich correlates with genetics to a very high degree. Race is very real and important when building a society.
@@overtonpendulum2071 they’re mostly arbitrary. When you see a person with a “white” mother and a “black” father and they’re considered “black” it is clear it is mostly arbitrary. Of course different skin tones exist. No one disputes that. How does that correlate to the categories of “race” that we have created?
8:14 Razib Khan: "The Avar Empire, the Avars were Turks"
The Avars were not at all the same in origin. The Turkic Ogurs were considered to be "Pseudo-Avars".
Ancient genomes reveal origin and rapid trans-Eurasian migration of 7th century Avar elites
"However, the texts do not agree on who these Avars were, or where exactly they came from. In fact, the Turks claimed that they were only Pseudo-Avars who had appropriated the prestigious name Avars and the lofty title of khagan but were in reality Ogurs, a Turkic-speaking people in western Central Eurasia. While we can conclude that the Rouran most likely called themselves Avars, to what extent the European Avars were descended from them has been debated (Dobrovits, 2003; Pohl, 2018)."
"Our results provide robust genetic support for the Northeast Asian ancestry of the Avar-period elite in the core region of the Avar empire (DTI) from the middle third of the 7th CE to the early 8th CE Carpathian Basin (early to middle Avar period). We show a striking genetic match with a Rouran-period individual as well as with ancient individuals from Xiongnu and especially Xianbei periods from the eastern Asian steppe. During the late Avar period, we observe a shift among the elite in the Avar core area toward a more recently admixed ancestry. Even if late Avar individuals still preserve a predominant northern East Asian component, the western Eurasian source that best fits the remaining 20%-30% of their ancestry is mostly a non-local one (i.e., it does not match the gene pools of the available preceding Carpathian Basin populations)."
I enjoyed the conversation, however please turn the mics off while drinking and sniffling. I found the sound effects extremely distracting.
It was too much! Lol yea yea mmmhmm yea yea! Sorry love the talk but the extra stuff hurts the twlk
That's why many podcasters have that extra screen. There are also digital mics that can filter things out, but that's some pretty pricey equipment.
The natural fidelity of sound, though, does make it feel like more of a conversation than a TED talk.
I wish people in the sciences/social science were simply matter of fact about things like this guy, great episode
But then they cant pretend that bwacks are equal
@@notallowedtobehonest2539 I guess the persons most qualified to determine ethnicity and other human characteristics are actually not pretending
@@lapis.lazuli. qualified by who?
@@notallowedtobehonest2539 related institutions of learning
@@notallowedtobehonest2539 No group is equal.
Razib is so frank and open I wonder if not being "white" frees him up in a genetic discussion not available to many others.
as a fellow from the sub-continent, I also get that pass when talking about race.
You'd think so, but apparently he was cancelled as a recent hire for The New York Times when certain progressive activists started digging into his work and posts and found all sorts of "offensive" subject matter on race and genetics.
NYT of course caved and let him go.
@@pacifront83same.
Can you define who is "white"? Do we mean "European"?
@@johnkatsaros7340 Who else is considered white LOL
This was such a great discussion.
Razib is like a professor for the masses. Great video.
It's refreshing to know there are still ppl who rely on the data in conjunction with external data and aren't biased, also willing to say the work is on going there a particular conclusion should not be assumed...love razib haha
As a Jat from Rajasthan I can confirm about our steppe ancestry and according to DNA reports available publicly percentage of steppe is 40 percent among the Jats of Haryana/Rajasthan/UP due to less mixing
What is your proof that you have steppe ancestory?
Nonsense.
@@umax870 Why is nonsense? is hurting your feelings?
@@umax870I see your subscriptions, you are an OIT fanatic chavda fan, no wonder you find it nOnSenSe lol.
@@phoenixj1299Literally the DNA reports, as mentioned in the original comment. Haryanvis are 35-45% sintashta & also notorious for being most warlike people
Coleman, you're great, but if there's any way you could mike yourself so that we don't hear your loud slurping as your guest speaks, I, and those similarly afflicted with misophonia, would be extremely grateful.
Thank you so much! I scrolled through the comments, hoping someone else had mentioned this.
Sadly, I only got about ten minutes in, and had to stop.
The sniffing was doing my head in, too.
this sounded like that one goon student from a video in a collage debate expecting everyone to "respect" him by demanding them to shut up
🤣🤣
Its incredible that someone would decide to host a podcast and make such an annoyingly basic technical flaw.
My son has that misophonia, bad. Only time he was fearless talking to me, was chewing in his ear by accident. I almost killed him, but I'm not sure he wouldn't of killed me first. I can understand the being annoyed, even somewhat extremely annoyed, but my son gets violently annoyed. Calm tf down
"You are a very genetically complex person."
"Thank you, Razib."
Love you, Coleman.
yup. that's what they said
He said Queen Charlotte is not important.
Meanwhile: We named an entire major American City after her.
Queen Charlotte Islands archipelago in BC Canada. Yes she was important.
She just looks Portuguese, but even if her great great great great grandmother was of SSA origin , she would be what,1% and MTDA recombines with 50/50 in every child, so it’s more difficult to track. What deep ancestry has taught us today, that you are the seed of your father because 100% passes down in men each time in only males.
One thing we know for certain though, lookership is not a dependable or accurate method to measure ancestry.
North Africans are still a Caucasiod people and have been for 40k+ years because that’s where the root came from.
There is no single point of human origin. They evolved in different parts of the African continent. We also have Peking Man who is far older than the modern human remains we found in Africa.
The models have not been updated.
It’s funny you’re mentioning that north africans are caucasoid meanwhile they’re from the same lineage as Somali and Ethiopian peoples. They’ve had alot of admixture from coming from Europe. That's why lot's of them come with white skin. meanwhile 3000 years ago north africans looked closer to Somali and had dark skin, like southerners from india still do. But I agree that horners and north africans share a common ancestor with Europeans.
Perhaps you associate "keen" features with "caucasoids" if I'm not mistaken?
@@lazairance Caucasiods have always been in the Levant & North Africa because that’s where they came from.
That’s been proven genetically over and over again.
Also Natufians have a WHG component.
12k years ago there were waves of Back to Africa Migrations from Eurasia during the Neolithic Revolution as well.
@@acaydia2982 they came from the horn* The ethiopians and somali NEVER left the continent. They’re genetically the same as 10000 yrs ago. And them migrations back into Africa aren’t actually proven their just hypothesis.
It seems they’ve consistently left out who certain people are and the fact the missing fact is AFRICA and Africans. However, I learned a lot.
What a terrific and important interview. I'm incredibly impressed with both Coleman and Razib. Coleman, please have Razib on again so he can talk about other ethnicities and other related subjects Razib deep dives into. If I took a DNA history test I'd be one of those who wanted to know if a higher % of my DNA came from a Central Asian grain farmer versus an Irish sheep herder.
This was fascinating indeed! Great guest! Would love to see Coleman do more like this.
Even with genetics too, it's hard to figure out phenotype sometimes. Having a "black" doesn't mean someone would look remotely black African. Like Coleman I'm a mixed Puerto Rican (23% Sub Saharan African, 70% European and 7% Native American) and I look like some random guido from Queens.
Came to say exactly this. Well said.
If your mixed, your not black
He’s not a mixed Puerto Rican though. He’s mom is the mixed Puerto Rican who’s mostly Europeans & native. He’s dad is American who’s mostly of African ancestry with a small % of European. He looks “black” because more than half of his ancestry is.
You look like a random guido because you’re mostly white with ancestry probability from southern Europe. Makes perfect sense!
@@melissasimmons3222 When I'm saying Mixed Puerto Rican I mean he's not fully Puerto Rican. Hope this helps clarify my comment.
I wonder how you get the 7% Native American figure, is that through an ancestor of North American Indian descent, or through the Puerto Rican (Carib/Taino?) ancestor? Native American ancestry can’t be identified from DNA testing because the Nations generally boycott contributing to those databases.
This was a pretty interesting conversation but in my personal opinion I would have liked to hear more about the genetic makeup and history of Africa and Africans outside of the surface level Cleopatra conversation. I think African history, culture and genetics is very misunderstood sometimes even intentionally. An episode covering Cushitic ancestry. Ta-Seti civilization and the Nabta Playa herders would be interesting.
Do it yourself?
@@total_leftie I'm not a geneticist I'm an Aerospace engineer with an affinity for African history. They spent a lot of time talking about Cleopatra and how those islanders were not Africans instead of discussing what is measurably the most genetically diverse people on the face of the planet. That's why I'm asking
@@themac9677 if you want to direct the questions you're gonna need to do it yourself, is what i'm saying. coleman will have the questions he is interested in hearing answers to, i will have mine, you will have yours.
@@total_leftie No I understand that. What I'm saying is throughout the interview they spent a majority of their time talking about people who are not Africans and no time talking about who African people actually are. If you're going to talk about the human genome and not enter Africa into the conversation it's just a little bit superficial and that's whether I'm asking the questions or not. Kind of like talking about Americas fight for independence but skipping over the revolutionary war
@@themac9677 i don't really understand why it is superficial to specialise in particular areas. perhaps razib has purposefully chose to leave certain areas because you can catch heat for saying things that people don't want to accept. i haven't watched the whole thing so i will admit am finding it difficult to grasp your point entirely, but i don't think it's a requirement of anyone to have to speak about anything, and quite the contrary, when people are more zoned in they tend to be more accurate - rather than the jack of all trade types.
I watched this because you had Razib Khan on. I read everything he puts out. Thanks for the interview, and now I'm a subscriber to this series as well.
I listened to this on .75x speed and it was much more pleasant (bc this guy talks very fast and doesn’t always finish his sentences, so it takes a little extra focus).
Funny, I listened at 1.75×
He's like the Indian version of Ben Shapiro.
@@mordechaistein oh gosh I wish but he follows Freddie DeBoer who is such a Jew hater it gives me ~shivers~
@lorileifer613 That is troubling to hear. I was just referring though to the fast speech, though it would be nice if his values were good as well.
Razib seemingly has no social filter! I kinda appreciate that. A lot of this was roughly familiar to me from the published work and discussion of David Reich and others much more guarded in their assertions... Which I appreciate, but for me it's kinda beautiful to see the social filters mostly off. As is always the case with science discovery, it's probably 50% to 33% right/wrong... but the filtering is "concerning"???
Honestly I don't have a strong opinion...
Razib is much larger than I thought hed be
Right. I’m shocked
He's built like a Steppe Conqueror.
@@nenirouvelliv nope, iindian's do not have have r1b haplogroup so they r not european they have only r1a haplogroup whereas european have both r1a ( origin around 20000-25000bce) and r1b( 12000-18000bce )..... so that's mean they were same people before ice age and yamnaya people had r1a and r1b whereas jaat of iindia do not have r1b......
@@urrasscal8380 The steppe element in Indians is descended from a very specific subset of steppe-herders, the Andronovo people, who were mostly r1a. R1b was probably present only in the westermost steppe tribes that became the ancestors of the Bell-Beakers. The pre-IE Harappans were mostly R2 and L1 lineages, mix of indus valley farmers and proto-dravidan tribes.
Or is Coleman just smaller?
Thanks, Coleman. I have watched 7-8K conversations on UA-cam in the past 5 years and this was as good as almost any. Razib Khan is that happiest of men, The Happy Warrior.
i like this phrase, where's it from ?
This episode was a mind blow. The guest is next level brilliant. I was so stimulated during the entire conversation and carried away in the things the guest was saying that Coleman caught me off guard with the most incredible thing that has happened to me. Driving while listening to this episode, I almost wrecked with laughter when Coleman pulled the most hilarious comment in all podcast history. That line about comparing himself to Obama and Elizabeth Warren almost had me in a wreck because of the convulsive and hysterical laugh that I uncontrollably found myself in. I was helpless against that quip. Never ever in all podcast listening history have I been so caught off guard and had laughter erupt out of me like a volcano. It was pure brilliance. I was so caught off guard. Master piece from start to finish. I will listen to this at least 3 more times.
This is what interviews with a scientist used to look like. 'Here's what we've discovered. It's really interesting. This is how we know it's true, to the extent that it's the best model representing reality that we've come up with so far.' Brush of the silly stuff gently but firmly. No time wasted placating idiots, deal with falsifiable, testable theory only. I suppose that is mind blowing today, and that is indescribably sad.
Great interview. You can tell Razib is passionate and knows his stuff about genetics and archaeogenetics. Interesting how he brought up Indo European mixing with the Mitanni in northern Syria and how their Charioteers were Indo-European, these does not seem to have had an impact on their language, as Hurrian is a language isolate.
And yes, modern Egyptians are the descendants of Ancient Egyptians.
In part
Who the heck thinks modern Egyptians aren’t the descendants of ancient Egyptians?
@@jujutrini8412 Clearly you haven't met any black american afrocentrics.
@@jujutrini8412 As Lucid said, afrocentrists or hotep types.
@@jujutrini8412 Jada Pinkett Smith
Razib is scary special, very impressive. I struggled to keep up.
How old is this dude? His voice sounds 22 but his hair looks 63!
It's called Gen X. We're getting old (oldest almost 60), but we still speak as we always did (as did every other generation before us).
Sounds like he's 14
😂 And his face looks 38
@@mtsjunglesthat’s south Asian men for you, even African men look somewhat attractive
The Bantu expansion, in many ways, parralels Indo European expansion. I think if more people understood this then we'd have a more intelligent conversation about "race" and culture. Today many people, across Eurasia, South Asia, North Africa and the Americas have some amount of Indo European lineage and if you can understand this conversation then you are, at least partly, Indo European culturally. This has been a dumb taboo to talk about since WWII but we need to have these conversations, especially as Americans.
Good luck with that. The establishment will never allow it.
@@avengemybreath3084 Thanks, I'll need it. One things that's kind of funny is that the "Aryans" got their asses kicked by guys with names like Yeager, Eisenhower and MacArthur. People need to lighten up about this stuff.
@@S.J.L Agree completely, although Razib, being south Asian, has more right to call himself Aryan than any German.
I wholeheartedly agree these conversations are desperately needed, but the establishment benefits too greatly from the stilted, and false, narratives around race that have been used to divide all of us.
They won't let the facts get in the way of their "divide and conquer" programming.
It’s amazing how genetics have exposed this.
Bantu soeaking people are not the only black Africans and I don’t know why you’re identifying a language group as a race in the first place.
I have to do a lot of census data mining for my job and usually have to read the questions on the census itself to be able to interpret the data properly. The 1930 census was the first time that "Indian, Chinese, Japanese, or other race" showed up. 1940 and 1950 was "white, black, other." 1960 had white, black, and then it had Puerto Rican or Spanish surname and then also broke Puerto Ricans down into white and nonwhite. It also had boxes for Indian, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, other races. Asian & Pacific Islander didn't show up until 1980. The way that these questions wind up on the census is there a political and it's usually from pressure from interest groups. In the case of Spanish surname, Hispanic, Asian and Pacific islander showing up on the census, it's because those groups were pressuring Congress to put it on there. It's some of the terms are relics from the 19th century but but they do change with whatever the PC term of the time is. There's also a lot more fine detail that gets collected in the Census American community survey that we don't really have access to from 100 years ago. Like I can zoom in to a zip code and see how many Hispanics live there, and then among those I can see how many Puerto Ricans, hiw many Cubans, Venezuelans, Salvadorans, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, to the extent that race is a social construct, the census is just using it in the way that it's understood at the time, or at least in the way that it's being pressured to understand it.
Wow, really a fantastic and obviously extremely intelligent guest. Very interesting discussion. Thanks, Coleman!
23:30 23andMe® does provide the Y-chromosome.
Different Ancestry Information By Sex
"The paternal assignment in the Paternal Haplogroup Report, however, uses DNA that is only inherited by males. Since this haplogroup assignment is traced through the Y-chromosome DNA, which women do not inherit, the assignment is only available for males."
"Sex chromosomes determine if you are female (XX) or male (XY). Women inherited two copies of the X chromosome - one from each parent - while men inherited one X chromosome from their mother and one Y chromosome from their father."
"Since women do not have a Y chromosome, 23andMe cannot directly provide a Y-chromosome haplogroup (also known as a paternal haplogroup) to women in the Paternal Haplogroup Report. This haplogroup assignment is traced through the Y chromosome, which women do not inherit. Women have the option to connect the haplogroup assignment of a father or brother to their Paternal Haplogroup Report."
So informative! Looking forward to learning more.
For what it's worth, there's quite a few words in Black American English that appear Scots Gaelic and Irish in origin. Drawers for underwear is from drathais (pronounced drah-has), bonnet, as in the big poofy hat women wear at night to protect their hair is from bonnaid (pronounced bon-age). In standard English, a bonnet is a tight little hat women used to wear. A lot of the underlying grammar of Black American English, particularly that of the South, has oddly Gaelic sentence structure. He does be, she don't be, it be etc. It's not as obvious today now that much of the original Southern Black language has faded away, but if you read the word for word speech of Black slaves and former slaves, it's like they're speaking with English words in Gaelic word order. Perhaps there's a West African similarity there that made learning the speech of poor Southern Scots-Irish an easier task than that of their wealthy, more standard English speaking masters.
Put Welsh in there, P Celtic, of the Williams, Davis and Jones.
Razib needs to write a book! That was fascinating 😮
I'm from Europe. I've encountered the term "Caucasian" in the past and have always wondered what it meant, why the sudden interest in the Caucasus. That it is a term for white people has only now dawned on me.
Anyway, then - the moment when Coleman has to prove the existence of women as a biological sex... I, for one, was prepared to "respect" the consensus that there is a biological sex and then that "gender" (even though I have my doubts about that - but I don't know about it, so just "ok"). But this next phase, where "ok, gender ... we agree on that. Now let's abolish the biological part altogether".
And I don't blame Coleman for that - but that he feels the need to preemptively defend himself and summarize his arguments for the existence of gender is sad enough.
This was so incredibly interesting. It’s been a long time since I learnt so much in one single podcast. Well done to Coleman and Razib for producing such a thoughtful and insightful conversation 👏👏👏
Huge fan of Razib for quite some time! His content has been mostly paywalled for a while, but now I know it's because it's worth paying for! Subscribing to the substack today!!
This episode was the first one I had to slow down the playback speed 🤣. This info was beyond me.
The bits of conversation I could hear between Coleman’s many loud sniffs, sips, and gulps was great!
Very true, I almost had to stop but persevered and the sounds seemed to be less of a thing...
I just said the same thing. How annoying. I've remarked previously as well. No professional interviewer does this. He sounds like an animal.
He obviously doesn't know it's being heard. Hopefully he will read these comments cos I'm stopping now
Funny...
Though I can notice it if promoted, it didn't draw my attention while listening, and I certainly wasn't bothered by it. Think it might be one of those things that's just an unchosen human variability... genetic or environmental??
Anyway...
Since some significant portions of listeners are affected... maybe he could just get a good copy of some digital audio cleanup software and run it through as standard practice.
I've found that even running it in auto mode makes massive improvements, but perhaps not enough for those more sensitive. Obviously he's not able to retain pro sound engineering at this point. We've all gotten used to the big studio operation production standards, which small operations, even with today's technology assists are difficult to replicate.
Wow, that was really good. Thanks for finding these interesting people.
Good interview. Coleman may need to investigate ways to improve his sound quality. Picking up on a few very distracting sounds throughout. Less sensitivity on the mic perhaps
i don't even know what a substack is. :(
Haha😂. Same here. I assume that it's a subscription based collection of data (papers, videos, graphs, ECT..)
I'm just guessing that from context clues, but I really have no idea.
Really hoping he writes a book someday
This guy was actually really interesting to listen to, I would love to watch more about him explaining the ancestral makeup of different ethnic groups.
he start his own university, his podcasts are endlessly fascinating! makes me want to get back into anthropology
This was really entertaining!!
I started off thinking “I’m not going to warm to this guy!” Then we got into the possibility of genomic eradication of hereditary disease - and I liked him even less. (Probably because I misinterpreted what he was setting out?)
But then he got into broad-sweep genomic analysis - and, Wow! - how utterly fascinating was that.
Thanks to both of you for a REALLY interesting conversation !!
I started listening to this in the car then was watching it once I got home. It was not expecting the Bengali Ringo Starr.
This is the most interesting talk Ive listened to this year. What an amazing conversation.
I ridiculed(in my head) people that claimed race is a social construct. Yet defining significant differences is about isolated pools of genes, not melanin content.
Well, if race isn't a social construct, how do _you_ define race?
@ayyleeuz4892 Genetics don't explain arbitrarily drawn political designations anymore than geology explains arbitrarily drawn national borders (no, society and culture explain them).
@ayyleeuz4892 Dude, we could enter a never ending rabbit hole of semantics. Language evolves and opinions change. *Here's the thing* , I probably have different ideas about the realness of "race", than you do; but then again, we probably have different tastes in _women, wine, food, books and music_ .
It is what it is.
@ayyleeuz4892 Dude, that's your opinion, and guess what? I simply don't share your opinion.
But let me ask something, if you couldn't guess my so-called "race" if you knew the type of women I like, the kind of wine I drink, the kind of food I like to eat, the books I like to read or the music that I listen to, what's the point of race? I could answer a battery of questions about my values,, desires, hopes and dreams and you _still_ couldn't identify my so-called "race" (without actually seeing me). At best you might identify my class or education level; so what's the point of slotting me (or yourself) into a static category when we live in an increasingly fluid world?
This guy is all sooooo clever , his knowledge and remembrance of all the facts is outstanding, I can't even remember what exact ages my kids are without thinking about it.
I have one kid…. And I have to ask my ex wife how old he is some years. I actually forget my own age sometimes.
It’s called autism.
This is so amazing! Razib Khan has so much information he should write a book too. Definitely going to his website/blog. His reading list on Goodreads is over 1400 books as well. I’m definitely looking up more pics of him 🔥
Puerto-Rican isn't a race.
Is that a response to Khan guessing Hughes's mother is Puerto Rican?
I don't remember anyone making a point dependent upon Puerto Rican being a race.
@@markstuber4731nationality
He didn’t say it is. He just made a guess based on the guys dna and hit the nail on the head.
It's funny when people don't know the difference between nationality and ethnicity/race
That's true, but it IS a place that has tendencies toward certain genetic combinations.
If only the person handling the sound would mute the mic when someone takes a drink. Or, simply PUSH THE MIC AWAY as you take a drink. Seems pretty simple.
Pls dont slurp into the microphone.
Timecode?
The entire thing. Sounds like Coleman had a bit of a runny nose
@@that1chickinFL Yep and that is human but dont do it directly in to the microphone I would say.
That is so petty you just had to come in and say something petty like that, instead of getting the context and what he’s saying!
@@jerushiahylton doubt it's a petty thing if the listener suffers from misophonia it's actually quite a big thing!
I would Recommend David Reich's book, " who we are and how we got here" to everyone who liked this podcast.
need to calibrate microphones for different guests as this learned gentleman has a very high and pitchy voice
Here I am, listening to this episode again bc it’s so damn interesting and honest and it’s so clear that they both have sincere motives to help everyone. The BEST! Thanks again!
Love this topic. Love you, Coleman. Piece of constructive criticism: nasal sounds and clearing of mucus sounds in the mic aren’t conducive to focusing on what the guest is sharing. Oh, and the loud beverage slurping and nasal passage clearing…
He has hay fever like "allergies" that's where the nasal/ mucus sounds comes from. Not easy to mask.
I like and respect Razib, but he was wrong about the idea of the Romans castrating their male slaves as much as the Muslim world did. With the Muslims, it was almost all of the African slave men. With the Romans, slavery was much more organically integrated with society. Slaves in great numbers were allowed to earn money and eventually buy their own freedom. They had official status as Freedmen, wore the Roman iron ring of a free man, and a special cap of a newly freed slave. This was both a mark of pride for the newly freed man, but also, since most people stay where they are for most of their lives, folks wont keep treating them like the slaves they've been for the whole time most people there had known them, because they'd see the cap and ring. Also, that culture had the Freedman usually take the last name - the "cognomen" of the former Master. That Master would have that Freedman as what they called his Client. The Client would regularly visit to see if anything was wanted, but also would be given contacts and other help by the Master. This way his Client group, also his entourage, would be more capable and useful - a win-win situation. This made Freedmen a valuable input at the lowest level of Roman society, of trained workers who had the motivation to work hard, and the training to do specific tasks with expertise, in a way that no other free workers in large numbers were available, anywhere. These uncastrated Freemen had not just some kids, but achieved in some cases very high status and wealth in Imperial Roman society. The Castrato that Razib mentioned was a specialist type of slave from later post Empire Italy, when young singer slaves were castrated - thus called castrato - to save their trained tenor or soprano voices from the voice-change of puberty.
Bro, take this as positive criticism. That "mhming" every 5 seconds as well as the slurping and other noises you make are annoying beyond measure. You have very nice content but those types of mannerisms make it almost unbearable. You need to practice a lot to get rid of those habits.
Serious question. Why is there no genetic solution to baldness yet? I know it's not life threatening but can be quite traumatic.
Biggups to Razib! I love his work. If you’re interested in human prehistory his podcast and Substack are really worth diving into
Fascinating conversation. Nice to see the speaker so passionate about his expertise. I'm still researching about my own family tree 🌴in The Seychelles. My mother Chinese / African and my father French /Portuguese. It would be great to have a conversation with Razib Khan.
Coleman loudly slurping and swallowing his drink in the background.
Most fascinating nugget of information (at least for me): there is no unified German genetic cluster. It's also quite ironic, given key elements of Germany's history.
@ayyleeuz4892 Er, Germany became a state after the Franco-Prussian war in 1870-71 -- a fair bit more than 100 years ago. Besides, I don't know what that has to do with what I've said. People groups can be genetically unified, even if they're not a state. Meanwhile, states can exhibit a great deal of genetic diversity (the U.S., for example). Whether a people group has organised itself as a state really has no bearing on its genetic homogeneity.
The mouth and nasal sounds were too much and nearly prevented me from finishing this important podcast...
Love to see the corroboration of conclusions drawn from the area of historical linguistics using modern population genetics! I known linguists who with population geneticists in places where creoles have developed through Atlantic triangular trade, and using genetics in tandem with linguistics has helped their team figure out which varieties of the creole preserve the most traits of the earlier forms of creole. Amazing collaborative work!
Dang this was a good one! I rarely make time to listen to hr+ conversations and this one of those rarities.
Show should be retitled _Get Canceled with Coleman_
At minute 47:00 talk is about Ashkenazi Jews. They develop around 1500 AD
Omg the slurping 😂 Coleman!!!
I wish you would take small clips and posted. This is a very dense topic, but very interesting.
My new favorite interview! THANK YOU
Agreed. Very interesting and well done.
Interesting discussion. But the guest jumps around talking about linguistics, genetics and social history, and the host can't slow him down and bring out useful details.
Great conversation!
One (small) point: every time Coleman takes a drink, I can hear him slurping and swallowing!
Thank you for attending
I was just thinking about Razib and out of nowhere this gold nugget drops on my lap, fantastic!
manifesting
I would love to ask Razib to define indigenous and or indigenaity
A DNA test can only tell you what you are, but not who you are. The 'who you are' is the same for all of us: 'You are what you do when it counts' - John Steakley. Unlike your DNA, the 'who you are' must be earned every day.
Incorrect. Your genes determine what your abilities are, your personality and a host of other things. Who you are is deeply informed by the the DNA that made you.
@@thinking-ape6483 I agree with you. Our genes have significant influences on us. The statement above is meant to express the opinion that your personal identity should not be deeply tied to your genetic past. That pride is reserved for personal accomplishment, not an accident of birth.
@@thinking-ape6483 your genes allow for a wide variety of “who you are” that has to be influenced and chose by environment and will.
@ayyleeuz4892 Nonsense for not taking credit for things you never did? I don't think so.
There's no species of pride that is more hollow, superficial, and undeserved than the ancestral variety .
@@thinking-ape6483How can coded (or non-coded) sections of nucleic acids determine if someone will be an introvert vs an extrovert for example?
Or if they'll love chicken but hate turkey?
Super intrigued for your response.
I like how fast and articulately Razib talks. Super interesting podcast!
One of the most fascinating talks Coleman's done. Razib is on fire!. Boggles the mind.
Razib always cracks me up when I listen to him - but seeing his eccentric self in full HD is just too much ;)
This was amazing an amazing discussion. Quite insightful.
Its definitely interesting. The Romans thought of their concurrent greek neighbors as asiatic, and their culture was thought of as oriental in nature. Check out what the romans wrote about Elagabalus.
this guy is confirming everything people argued with me about - but everything i studied about dna tracing and ad mixture. good find
Much more than gender is. To me culture is way more important than color. Because skin changes along our history just like brains do. What makes someone unique is far more than superficial characteristics. Culture is beautiful, unless it tries to erase other cultures, such as communism which is now infecting the west, in the name of equality and diversity. It's nothing but ideological subversion. See Yuri Bezmenov.
Another great guest with no pc filter and lots of interesting things to say.
This was great! Wish you asked about IQ
That’s a pretty boring question though. Most of that us general knowledge lol
IQ ....is a social construct
@@YouGotOptions2hahahahahah😂
@@YouGotOptions2 🤣
@@YouGotOptions2😂😂😂😂
I like this dude, he tell it like it is. Kahn is based.
RACE is NOT a Social Construct. He just said it, they both did! It is based on biology ie physical reality GRANTED that physical reality has social constructs built on top of it. Ppl gotta stop saying that. I mean the definition of social constructs on google is now including examples of it like Race and Gender which are Biological truths, quantifiable and repeatable truths be they always evolving as do the understanding of things.
@Ralph_Beckman LOL if you think my word is god then to you I guess it is lol. But I agree race is Very losly defined at its core but that's because genetics is simply extremely complex and 5hese phenotypes bleed in with each other and very groups across time and the planet. But again even with that its still not a social construct. I think ppl confuse the social constructs layered on top of race as race itself.
"gender" is *not* a biological term. It's a linguistic (social) term, later adopted by anthropologists and sociologists *because it refers to something different* from "sex". If you
If you intend to mean "sex" (i.e. biology) then don't use the word "gender". This is not a "woke" position, it is an etymological one.
There is variation in every population. Race is a social construct because there is no boundary separating races. Even gender is variable, some people are inter-sex. Everything, race, gender, etc. exists on a spectrum.
@mikeg2306 There are variances between homosapiens and Race is simply (from a biological) stance just the grouping of those variances. These variances range from hormonal differences, energy express differences, bone density, muscles types, respiratory variances, hair and genetic marker variances I mean there's over 100 years of study. What ppl are doing is taking the fact that we are all Homosapiens ie like 90+% the same to ignore the biological differences that we do have. HUMANS ARE DIVERSE! We are diverse in our concepts of morality, in our beliefs, in our sexualties, in our SEX, and in our GENETIC MAKE UP. I don't understand why that TRUTH is soooooooo hard for ppl to except 😶
Great conversation and information. However, because the mic is so awesome, the sniffing and sipping was way too loud. I almost couldn’t take it. 😫
Me too! So irritating and almost made me switch off.
I subscribed to Razib Khan's sub stack. His articles were so full of unexplained jargon and demanded so much prior knowledge that I only understood about ten percent of it.
So I didn't renew my subscription.
If you subscribe, good luck.
You must be subscribed to a different substack. His pieces are very accessible
@@pathologicaldoubt Lol dude he literally just tweeted about how he's not trying to make his pieces extra ingestible and knows he's writing for a smaller slice that can grok the meaty subjects he's talking about.
I started subscribing to his Substack about two years ago with almost no higher education in the hard sciences and I found it to be really helpful in understanding such an incredibly complex field as population genetics. I think if you are someone who is curious about human history deep into the past it is well worth the price. His writing is dense with information but it’s a rewarding read every time. There’s really no one doing quite what he’s doing in the way that he’s doing it rn, it’s cool to see him getting the exposure:)
Hi @Coleman, great interviews as always.
Not sure this was mentioned to you before, but could you please turn off your microphone, or move away from it when you drink, or sniff 😅
Cheers
Given the mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome DNA tracking directly, I would be very interested to see independent genetic studies of the proportion of American Black DNA that is Irish on the mother's lineage vs fathers lineage. Might be an absolutely ground shaking chunk of data there.
Poland and Belarus are forests and marshes not steppes
If you walk from Scotland to Sudan you will never see any distinct break in the appearance of the people you pass each day. But you will find pale skinned (all but blue) people around you at the beginning of your walk and tall skinny people a dark charcoal colour at the end of your walk.
Americans divide the world into five "types" of people because those are the five most easily recogniseable divisions.
50% of all human genetic variability is found within the continent of Africa. Ro claim African heritage is very slightly less significant than claiming human ancestry.
Very good episode, excellent guest. Now have to read his Substack!
Hey @coleman Hughes, we can hear you sniffing and drinking 😅 otherwise great interview
43:30 On the causation point, my husband is Eastern European and when he came to America he had no idea what caucasian meant, he thought it probably means Asian, and it was on every official public form! 😂
Conversely, a friend of mine from Armenia is actually Caucasian and she has brown skin, and always marks Caucasian and gets weird looks from people because she looks Mexican but she is not. She’s literally from right near Caucasus mountains, she’s more Caucasian than any white American person. But Americans think it means white. Unfortunately I think for jobs if she marks Caucasian they will be less likely to hire her (without meeting her, based solely on application) if they want someone “diverse” and wouldn’t even know that her skin color is not at all white. Very interesting.