Yaesu FTdx10: Noise Blanker (Video #39, additional videos at Patreon.com/N4HNH)
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- NOTE: This is the last public video in the FTdx10 numerical playlist. There are more than twice as many additional videos available for Patreon team members. To view the additional videos, join the Patreon team as an S7 (Executive) or S9 (VIP) at: www.PATREON.com/N4HNH
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This is the thirty-ninth video in a series of videos I have produced to show the capabilities of the Yaesu FTdx10. In this video we look at the effectiveness of the noise blanker.
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73, de N4HNH
YOUR VIDEOS ARE ALWAYS EXCELLENT!!
Thank you!
Thanks Doug, most interesting
73 Rob G3RCE
Thanks for the video Doug. I have not had a chance to try the noise blanker yet. Is it as effective on CW as it is on SSB, and if using with CW do you still recommend keeping it below 3? Thanks, Jim
Jim, I don’t think I’ve ever used a Noise Blanker for CW. I usually use a 50 to 100Hz width. The noise pulses aren’t as noticeable.
The NB in modern transceivers isn’t great! A Noise Blanker also degrades selectivity. Maybe I mentioned it in this video. I don’t remember. I know I’ve talked about it in some videos.
Thanks Doug. I believe you did mention that the Noise Blanker degrades selectivity and introduces some distortion. Thanks for the quick reply. I received my 300Hz roofing filter in the mail today from HRO and hope to install it tomorrow, and then watch video #40, Yaesu FTdx10: Weak CW RX with 300Hz & 500Hz Filters : ) Thanks again Doug.
Yes, the NB introduces distinct distortion when set much above level 3.
Wish I lived in an area like yours, I have to have both mine up high with the background noise I get. 8 to 10 on DNR the NB doesn't really make any difference
PLEASE PURCHASED A FTDX101D. WE MAY NEED TO TAKE UP A COLLECTION FOR YOU
I still prefer my FTdx5000MP. But the FTdx101MP would be a second choice. But I have an FTdx10 now, so that is about like having half of a FTdx101D.
Thanks for the video. I would like to buy an FT-DX10, but I am not really sure about its capacity to remove the pulse noise I have.
It is mostly S5-7 on side band (and S9+ on Am) and I can reduce 50-70% of it using the NB with different radios but I am not happy because of audio degradation and difficulties to receive weak signals.
I am not looking for to the best selectivity, but to the most efficient NB filtering to remove pulse noise.
PS: I have an FT-840 and works quite good although its age.
Cheers, VE7ADA Alessandro
Most modern transceivers won’t beat your FT-840. My FT-890 has the best Noise Blanker I’ve ever used. Look for the various videos on this channel that deal with noise. There are many. There is a playlist for HF noise interference.
I’m actually uploading a new one now. It will be public on December 16, 2022.
73, de N4HNH
Well, the cake test is bringing an FT-DX10 to my home and check whether or not it works on my noise. Luckily I know a guy can bring his radio to my home, so we can test it while drinking a beer.
Cheers, Alessandro
Sounds like a good plan. If your noise if from power lines, your power company should remedy it. Any noise blanker, even if it removes the noise, will either degrade audio quality (newer radios) or degrade selectivity (older radios). A noise blanker should only be a temporary fix.
Have you tried the circuit breaker test, to be sure the noise isn’t coming from something in your home, like LED lights, laptop power supply, wireless phone charger, wall wart power supply, etc.?
@@n4hnhradio Thanks Douglas for the good info. I have actually S9+20 on 80m (I can hear something just using the QRM-Eliminator), S9+ on 40m, and variable S3 to S7 on higher bands. That one can partially be removed with NB filters, that's why I'm looking for a radio that can help me in that way. I don't have problems with selectivity (mainly on upper bands since on BC we don't have a lot of traffic there, so I am ok with older radios on 10-15m.
I done quite a few noise source researching (including powering off my home) browsing with a TinySa around the neighborhood, but other than a spot close to a condo behind my place I haven't got. I'm not really sure where is coming from (should do more investigation) but at the least I know the direction. It could be a crappy switching psu, a plasma tv, inverter etc... I should browse inside the condo property in order to have more answers. Cheers, AD
I SURE WISH YOU COULD GET OUR HANDS ON A FTDX101D. AND TO BE ABLE TO MAKE VIDEOS ON IT LIKE YOU DO ON THE 10. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR VIDEOS, MATTHEW KJ4TN
You are welcome to send me one. But seriously, it’s practically a double of the FTdx10. It just has the VC Tune preselector and two separate receivers that can operate independently.
The VC Tune is the equivalent of the mu-tuner for a FTdx5000MP. If you watch the mu-tuner videos they will show how to effectively use VC Tune.
Question If you had a chance to pick up an FTDX10. And I want to do some digital in FT8 any other devices I need. Is other than a computer USB to the radio which is basically for a printer.
The FTdx10 has everything for FT8. It has a mode button for FT8.
73, de N4HNH
Try the NB without the DNF & DNR. I get a fair bit of distortion on some SSB signals, even at the lowest level NB1. And yes I played with all 3 NB controls. But I may be a little more sensitive to distortion & artifacts. My IC-7100's NB is cleaner at less than 1/2 the cost. Have you compared the 5000 to the 10 using only the NB, for distortion products? Thanx for your vids. 73
Noise blankers in general degrade the receive audio a bit, except with my Yaesu FT-890. The FT-890 is still one of the best radios ever made. My FT-920 also has a good noise blanker, though not quite as good as the FT-890.
Digital noise blankers tend to introduce distortion. And they aren’t particularly good at eliminating noise. The NB in the FTdx10 is about as good as I’ve experienced in the digital realm.
Analog noise blankers are pretty transparent, except they can impair selectivity. It might sound like distortion but what you’re actually hearing is the splatter from another signal up or down the band. It doesn’t mean that they are actually splattering, though they could be. Most of the time, it’s because the NB has impaired the selectivity of your receiver.
Buyers assume that the latest technology is always the best. So many amateurs today are unaware that they are being hoodwinked by clever marketing. The truth is that it’s cheaper to build when the manufacturer can use a chip to replace discrete components. That’s why SDR isn’t beating superheterodyne in all aspects. The digital technology has allowed the manufacturers to increase their profit margins, while making the unsuspecting hams think they are getting the best. Dual-conversion superheterodyne, using down-conversion, still reigns supreme in my opinion. I think the FTdx5000MP represents the pinnacle of transceiver design.
One of the worst noise blankers I have experienced is the one in the Yaesu FT-891. Other than the NB, the FT-891 is a phenomenal radio. So I try to take care of the noise at the source, so I can avoid using the NB.
Yaesu has seemingly struck the best balance between digital and analog, by creating the hybrid. My fear is that Yaesu will slip more into making whatever will sell, even if it isn’t the best.
The 5000 has two noise blankers, one for narrow pulse noise and one for wide-range noise. If set too high, the wide NB will introduce distortion.
I always say, noise blankers and notch filters should only be used until you can correct the cause of the noise.
Have you called Tim Factor at Yaesu and reported the DNF distortion? I called him on Monday. He said I’m the only person who has reported it.
Despite the minor idiosyncrasies in the FTdx10, it is still a great radio. I have found it to be the best at CW. My 5000 is the best SSB radio I’ve ever used.
And, for what it’s worth, I don’t expect Yaesu to be able to fix the distortion with a firmware update, without rendering the NB and DNF as useless. The more digital radios become, the more of an issue this will be. It’s too easy to overwhelm digital processing. That happened in the music industry when they went digital. I work in the music industry and I’ve seen that transition myself. You could saturate a tape and everything sounded fine. You cannot do that with digital recording. The digital has gotten better but purists will still record to tape.
I think my friend Joel summed it up best. At the time, he had a IC-7300 at home and a IC-7100 mobile. He got in my truck one day and I turned on the FT-890. He said it makes his radios sound like there is a blanket covering the speaker. He was blown away by how clear the audio was from my FT-890.
Sidenote: Couple a FT-890 and a Timewave DSP 59+ and you have a winning combination. They’re just hard to find these days.
73, de N4HNH
I have a quick scan from right to left like a quick scan across the bands. Do you know what or why that happens?
Yes, I explain in some of my videos, and I wrote an article about that on my Patreon site. It’s in the Technical collection, on the Collections page. It isn’t anything to be concerned about.
IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HEAR YOUR VIDEOS ON THE FTDX101D'S
You could call Yaesu and tell them to send me one. I know they have sold a bunch of FTdx10’s because of this channel. I don’t think they need any marketing help though. They are running out of stock. I wonder if they will have any to sell by Christmas.
Hello newbie here..... My dad and I are newer FTDX10 users. today I heard him make a contact and his audio was not clean and smooth even at a low RF power setting. We are close 2 miles but I have not heard his audio sound like that..... After checking all the setting and connections we rebooted the radio's and still it was there... Turned out it was because my NB was on causing the distorted audio and it was set to 0. And as a test his radio did the same with the NB on and made my audio distorted. Is this normal? I was also set to ATT 6dB and IPO set to IPO.... It doesnt seem to effect stations further way with stronger signals which is baffling?
I’ve shot numerous videos about what you’ve experienced.
The NB should only be used when absolutely necessary. The DSP-based Noise Blankers tend to introduce distortion when the signal strength exceeds S9. Use IPO and up to 18dB of ATT, if necessary, to keep the signal under S9. But, again, only use NB if absolutely necessary, like when you have power line buzz.
For normal operation I recommend enabling IPO and ATT, in that order, until your noise floor is near zero. Then engage DNR at algorithm 3. DNR helps with natural noise. I might go to algorithm 4 or 5 if necessary.
The Noise Blanker is for pulse type noise, such as noise generated when hardware on a power pole gets loose, resulting in arcs. The NB has two menu settings to tweak it. But no matter what, the NB is only a band-aid, until you can get your power company to correct their loose or failed hardware. It could even be a blown lightning arrestor on the power pole. Watch my videos about RFI.
The NB should not be used to combat natural noise. That is the job of the DNR algorithms.
Note: Noise Blankers in some of the vintage (pre-DSP) radios were more effective and didn’t introduce distortion. But they did degrade selectivity. I’ve covered that in videos as well. I recommend that you watch my FTdx5000MP playlist. Also watch my FT-890/AT videos. That radio had an incredible Noise Blanker.
@@n4hnhradio Yes that is exactly how I use NB only when I get a pulse static or the similar. Just happened to be in and out of the shack today and the conditions are as you know not the best and strange static. Thank you for the reply.
How is the doublet on the other bands and how is it configured? Is it fed with ladder line or coax. Looking to improve my antenna and trying to find the best solution.
Also, do you think the DX-10 will go on sale soon or will it be a future Christmas sale only.
Thanks.
Tim.
A doublet by its nature requires ladder-line. It’s a dipole that is fed in the center with ladder-line, instead of coax. A G5RV is in the doublet family. The ladder-line figures into the overall radiation profile.
You can adjust the length of the ladder-line in 1/8th wavelength increments to move the resonant point. They are typically broadband at their resonant point. Mine exhibits a less than a 2:1 SWR from 14MHz all the way to the top end of 17 meters (18.168MHz). For that frequency range, the impedance is approximately 200 Ohms where the window-line connects to the back of my tuner. My tuner has a 4:1 balun inside. You could use an external 4:1 balun (like those from Balun Designs) and then just bring a short run of coax into the shack. This will minimize some of the RF you might get in the shack. I have ferrite chokes on my computer, mic, CAT, and mouse cables to absorb the RF.
You don’t have to be too precise with the dipole length, since the ladder-line factors in, but a rule of thumb is 125 feet for 80m and up, and 250 feet for 160m and higher. Mine is 250 feet.
I recommend using 450-Ohm “window-line” so you can use a Ladder-loc as the center insulator. The window-line isn’t much less efficient than “real” ladder line, and the Ladder-loc is a very robust center support.
You can see my doublet in the Antenna Farm video I made. It is also featured in the Things Break video that I uploaded earlier this week.
I don’t know if the FTdx10 will go on sale this year at all. Yaesu can’t build radios fast enough right now. Many of them are out of stock or discontinued. I’m happy that they aren’t engaging in price-gouging. They could command a higher price now and they would probably get it. People have been awaiting the FT-891 and FT-991A for a few months. If Yaesu decides to discount the FTdx10 for Christmas that will definitely constitute a Christmas gift.
73, de N4HNH
@@n4hnhradio
Sounds good but I think I will need an antenna that can come in the house with coax. I have to go in the attic and then down the interior wall to the shack or underground into the crawl space then up the interior wall to the shack. My inverted V is about 30 yrs old and so is the feed line.🙄
Do you have any thoughts on the DX-10 pricing I ask earlier? Hoping it will go on sale.
Thanks for the reply,
Tim, KR4AZ.
You can install a 4:1 balun outside and bring coax inside to the tuner. Balun Designs has a nice 4:1 mounted inside a weatherproof box. If you plan to run legal limit, buy a 3kW balun. Always buy twice the power rating you plan to run.
A good alternative is the ZS6BKW but you won’t get 160 meters with it.
I answered the sale price thing at the end of my previous reply. I doubt it.
73, de N4HNH
@@n4hnhradio
Ok thanks, I see your reply now about the the 10. For some reason when I first read it I didn't see it at the end, sorry.
Good ideas on the antennas.
Thanks again,
Really enjoy your videos.👍
You’re quite welcome, Tim! My main antennas are the 160m doublet and the ZS6BKW. I built the doublet but I bought the ZS6BKW from NI4L.com. Chris does such a great job with the construction of his version of the ZS6BKW.
73, de N4HNH
I have almost 160m loop , and its a loop not square ,have lots of trees, talk about gain , its a great receive antenna
Very nice! Loops are awesome!
Wow. That sound like horrible NB performance. Your baseline noise level is would be a dream for me. I have been licensed for 50 years and have tracked and solved noise problems across a wide range of actors and circumstances. I am in a very noisy environment now that is destroying nearly 100% of my radio enjoyment. I have always found that the type of noise that blankers are effective on works better on the higher frequencies than the lower ones 20m and below especially. I am very experienced at all types of noise, noise causes, noise source tracking and have in my area I must live in now tried many ways to mitigate my problem, from various radios, to multiple types of noise cancelling devices, to mag loops, to, etc., etc, to etc. I was so hoping that modern technology could perform better than old. Old in my environment is insufficient. Modern appears worse. Truly sad that some of us are trapped in areas where ham radio becomes lost. Especially since I worked all my life with the hope and desire to use ham radio in my retirement. It is super depressing. I may even let my license lapse come time to renew. I wish the best of luck to all those who can still use and enjoy the hobby of my lifetime.
Try the QRM Eliminator. NB is mostly effective at mitigating pulse noise, like noise from a power pole or noise from an automobile ignition system. Low bands have more atmospheric noise. There IPO, ATT, and RF gain help. The QRM Eliminator can help some but it is also mostly effective against pulse noise. But, rather than blanking out your receiver, which can cause distortion and degrade selectivity, it uses phase cancellation. It keeps the noise out of the receiver so you don’t need the NB. Even the old noise blankers degraded receiver performance.
That said, I’ve had two viewers tell me that the FTdx10 kept them from giving up on ham radio due to local noise. Using the various features in concert with one another, which I show in many of my videos, helped them tame the noise.
73, de N4HNH
@@n4hnhradio Thanks for the kind reply. I am familar with phase cancelling and have tried multiple designs. I have solved or mitigated many noise situations over my 50 years of hamming. I am very astute at tracking noise as well. When it is power line noise that I am after, I have never called the power company to find it. I feel that is rude, so I find the poles myself and then notifiy them it is too problematic. That really helps them and they appreciate it. At this location, and I cannot move, I have multi source composite noise that combines in a manner that is nearly impossible to significantly mitigate. MY noise floor on most bands is at least S5, but typically S7 to S9 to 10 over at times. In most case, noise blanking might drop it 1 S unit. Sometimes not at all. Phase cancelling similar. Noise reduction is useless as that does not really help with the RF S/N ratio. I can only hear stations that are above S8 and I prefer them to be at least 20 over so that when I use attenuators to bring the overall signals and noise down to where I can stand it, I can still hear them. I loved calling CQ. Now I could fire up on people and not even know it so I cant do that anymore. I have tried many radios, but not many SDR radios. I have tried separate transmit and recieve antennas. A high quality mag loop helps on recieve a tiny bit, but not enough for true enjoyment. I have spent 1000s of dollars trying multiple approaches singularly and in tandem with each other. It takes a lot of work each time I turn the radio on to try and deal with it. As soon as I turn it on, I want to vomit and cry. My old friends where I used to live can hear me wonderfully and think I can hear them, but I cannot. I can hear a some words but the noise is just so bad. I am forced to have lower antennas at this location and a lot of the noise is a composite ground level noise from many sources from multiple directions coupled with more typical line noise also from multiple sources and directions. I dont really like portable or mobil operation much. I grew up having a shack I could come in, turn on the radio, and have fun. Sadly, those days are gone when I wanted them most. Thank you very much for at least reaching out. My callsign is W8HOT. 73 from a HOT noise pit in Florida.
I’m sorry that there is nothing available to solve your noise problem. I too drive around my subdivision and identify the problematic poles. My power company appreciates it too. They were very appreciative when they came out and found the problem to be two blown lightning arrestors. But, they are legally obligated to not cause RFI.
73, de N4HNH
@@n4hnhradio Ya, lightning arrestors and loose wrappings or hardware are most of the line noise issues I had fixed over the years. Seldom the transformers that people often think are the problem...at least in my cases over the years. If I ever work-up any effective solution here I will let you know. . At an old QTH I had electric fencer issues on 2m...I bought the farmer a new fencer unit. Also once an insulator on a pole was super noisy on 2 meters. Turned out that the extender arm it was mounted on was about a 1/4 wave on 2.
Take care and thanks again.
In 32 years, the RFI engineer for my power company only saw two transformers that caused RFI. It’s usually loose hardware, dirty insulators, or blown lightning arrestors.