Astarion’s story is about the cycle of abuse, and the way I see it the choice to complete the ritual is the choice to perpetuate it. He was a victim for so many years, and now that he gained power he wishes to victimise the rest of the world. He says he will be different, but every word out of his mouth is a lie. It’s masterfully written.
@@Tea_Noire yes. The cycle of abuse is a constant in life. An abuser is most often an abused victim too, and when they dont break from the cycle they repeat it. Cazador had a master who was cruel too, and now astarion has taken his place.
'You're going to be wonderfully obedient." --> "Thou shall obey me in all things" "Just don't stray too far. But you'd never dream of doing that, would you?" --> "Thou shall not leave my side unless directed" " I wish to sequester you in a deep chamber of my palace and keep you all to myself" --> "Thou shall know that thou art mine" Dude couldn't even wait until the tadpole is gone before reciting Cazadors (Vellioths) rules.
... maybe he will learn to follow the rules in a healthy way? Like... don't stray too far? Might mean, don't get lost? Or sequestered could mean, He wants us to know each other and spend quality time together. And that isn't so bad, is it? It's about perspective, right?
"Don't stray too far" is a practical rule in this case - if Tav gets too far, Astarion's protection from sunlight won't work, and Tav will be cinders. Presumably, though, Astarion will tighten the leash as he adjusts to his new power and status. @@JasmineGeminiDragon
Lmao, I know. Best case scenario for Tav in this plotline is that he/she has a relentless submission/degradation kink. The moment there’s any push back, there’s going to be a problem.
@@JasmineGeminiDragon Vampires undergo an alignment shift to evil after transformation. Most forms of undead (even the mindless ones, if left unattended) are possessed with hatred of the living, though vampires remain among the closest to humanity and the most able to mingle with it.
Even losing his humanity to the ritual, he still has some of it, mainly those insecurities. He's so afraid of the loneliness he faced during abuse, and so attached to the person who was saving him (as doing the ritual ends the path of you actually helping him heal) that he refuses to let them go. As hot as the words sound, he doesn't mean them the way a real dom does. His love isn't real love anymore, it's a love of ownership of the thing he felt empowered him.
I haven't even played this game, yet I've fallen for this character so much. When Ascendant Astarion speaks, there's hints of the character you love as well as an underlining darkness that makes your love for him give way to fear. Your desire to be with him is no longer a choice of your own, but a demand from someone who knows he has the power to make you stay regardless of how you feel. And he will.
It truly is terrifying, and I don't think people can understand it. But imagine. Wanting to rather die than become someone's plaything or slave, and you don't even have that choice, because he'd rather turn you into an obedient spawn as a mocking gesture. Then having to stay with a monstrous thing in place of someone you did care for, now there to use you instead of love you. Ugh, don't even wanna imagine such a degrading and cruel fate.
@@saradenunzio4700 - Sadly its 90% karlach/Astarion - (probably due to the fact that they never finished the withers end credits for all characters. But, if you are curious: Here: ua-cam.com/video/yXSfqCvClW8/v-deo.html
On the one hand, I don't begrudge him the power he's gained, but then is he so mean and you know he's lying with every syllable.... at the same time you wish that he means everything single word like he said. The threat in his last sentence...wow. This is better than cinema. Thanks for sharing. I am always amazed at this mega acting performance.
Ascended Astarion is TERRIFYING in my opinion. The man that once was is no longer there and he will NEVER be coming back. I couldn’t EVER stay with someone like the person he becomes. The Monster he becomes.
I don’t know if this is official d&d lore (this might have been GM world building), but full vampires in d&d loose their souls while spawns do not. I’m pretty sure Cazador did not have a soul to sacrifice, but Astarion did. (This might not transfer to the video game, if it is even official lore, but it’s something to think about.) Also maybe there’s just enough of Astarion’s empathy left to not want Tav to be soulless. Though the relationship is still as toxic as it can get. Even if Tav still has a soul as a spawn, Astarion has full control over them and is continuing the cycle of abuse Cazador started. Astarion might not be as bad as Cazador yet, but he just might end up there.
Astarion has already achieved all that Cazador wanted to achieve. He is new to the ascended status, just learning all his new abilities. In time, he may very well acknowledge that having his consort be at an adequate level of power, could benefit him personally too. But that's a when, sometime in decades or maybe centuries. Rather than a thing in the near future.
@@aquamarinerain Those were the words of a spawn freshly freed from his enslavement, thanks to the illithid tadpole. He had extremely limited experience with full vampires besides Cazador at that point. The vampiric perspective covers many millennia, potentially. It is hard to predict what the future will bring and what challenges they will encounter. He may need the backing of someone whom he can trust, who is the power of a full vampire. Or need to empower them to avoid losing them to someone targeting him by trying to kill those he loves. A spawn is little more than a mortal in this context, whereas a full vampire may stand a fighting chance. Endless possibilities really.
@@aquamarinerain Over time perspective can change. A creature new to a condition will have a different point of view than one secure in their role after a century or two. He cannot know what the future holds. He clearly wants the player character by his side. If, eventually, maintaining that relation requires freeing the spawn, he may do it. Or not. It is somewhat unpredictable. Keep in mind that in D&D, spawn receiving orders going against their own nature/preferences, do receive saving throws against it. Spellcasting spawn retain their spellcasting ability and can use some abjuration and divination spells to foil and fool supervision. Not sure how familiar you are with D&D magic system, but a spellcasting higher lvl spawn and a non-caster master vampire is not the same as a lvl 1 rogue spawn with a master who is a much higher lvl spellcaster.
Yes, they do hint at it. SPOILER BELOW * * If you choose to give Astarion over to the hunter in Act 1, at the end you get to kill Cazador yourself and you can read his dreams while he’s sleeping in his coffin. This way you find out that he’s a prisoner in his own body and has no free will.
I've never played baulder's gate 3 and only got into it for astarion (gonna buy it when it goes on sale in november) but through all the different videos I've seen of this character this really doesn't sound like him at all, and I can understand why the 'ascended' ending is considered the bad ending to most people. Astarion never WANTED the night. He never wanted to rule the world. He wanted revenge, and then he wanted his life back. He didn't want to cast the world in darkness and make a safe haven for himself so he wouldn't be hurt anymore, he wanted to CHOOSE. But this? Here he seems to have lost his choice. "I hear the whispers of the night but I do not yet understand its language" he's once again being compelled by something, no longer his own person. And yeah that plus the obvious dialogue line in the 'good' ending where he thanks you and says he was blinded by the swell of blood and hysteria while he was killing cazedor, that it would've been a bad idea for him to complete the ritual. I love the very OBVIOUS set up that Astarion ascended is eventually going to repeat the cycle of abuse with us if we ever went against him "of course you're going to be obedient." big red flag oof. XD still love both versions of this elf though
This was my fear and why I was unwilling to ascend him. OMG do those words sound so hot off his lips, but he doesn't mean them. He isn't really a dom, a trusted partner indulging in a kink, he really intended to own you. To control you. To hurt you if you fall out of line. His stopped healing the moment he ascended. But helping him see past the power-lust gives him the space to break the cycle or abuse and heal. And as a survivor of something similar I wanted that for him. I was willing to risk our whole relationship and the only partner I had built to fight back to back with for just a fraction of a chance that he could maintain his humanity. Unconditional love and all that jazz.
What he isn’t telling you is that in DnD a vampire bride (made by draining her blood and then drinking some of the vampire lords blood and never buried) cannot be compelled and has free will. This is exactly how he changes tav in game. He literally can’t compel tav but isn’t saying so. Tav will figure it out. It all comes down to he is afraid of not having you honestly. As an ascended vampire his mortal emotions have returned to him, he isn’t “mad.” He is legitimately alive again with a beating heart and he wants to share his eternity with you, and he can not actually compel you.
So glad to see an accurate take that isn’t hating on him because of the flaws. None of the companions are perfect they each have their flaws. Though I feel Karlach got done dirty in her endings ( she seems the kindest in my opinion and the most normal despite her trauma ). Certain thinks my Tav hates but while she has her limits and is strong willed she is also patient so she gives him a chance and benefit of the doubt even if some of the behaviors like the bite kiss piss her off. On the turning night she absolutely hated being made to kneel and hesitated to do it before with a begrudging sigh did so for him knowing what her options were. She has her boundaries but is fairly tolerant and will occasionally bend her morals for him like when they did the ritual she didn’t like any of her options but what he said about let thier sacrifice mean something was probably the only time she agreed with his coercion.
I'm grateful for the clips of ascended Astarion because, similar to the genocide route of Undertale, I'm very adamantly saying "no no no no no no no no no no no no" to doing this in my playthroughs. I wanna protect the cinnamon roll side of our boy 😢
I kinda wish if you took this path in the romance and he makes you a spawn, that he actually gets to influence the end. After all, a vampire can compel their spawn no problem, so wonder if he actually can do this at the end given how much he talks about controlling the brain n shit.
The tadpole prevented Cazador from influencing Astarion, so same with the player character as his spawn. I think that's why you can no longer break up with him in the post credit scene - there's no more tadpole to grant the PC the autonomy to do so.
@@ChangesOfTomorrow what happens if you let him turn you into a spawn, then you break up with him, and then you free yourselves of the tadpole? because after you're free of the tadpole, he doesn't let you break up with him. so i'm curious if he compels you to get back with him if you broke up with him earlier on
@@acapybara3032 @acapybara3032 he gets angry and after a few long rests will claim he was only using you and didn't think you had it in you to break up. Personally, it all sounds like sour grapes to me but there are people using this as proof Ascended Astarion didn't love Tav, so it's open for interpretations. In data mined cut epilogue there's a line about Ascended Astarion missing Tav but thinking it's beneath him to reach out first.
@@acapybara3032 - I did this for science..lol - Let him turn you, break up with him, then immediatly go fight the brain. It basically breaks the ending, and Astarion. Sometimes when you talk to him, its like he is NOT ascendant, and sometimes he is. Then at the "Ending" scene on the docks, he is Fine standing in the sun (as ascendant) and is fine doing w/e Tav decides they want to do. There is no "romance" Inn room scene, the game just ends as you have no romance.
I've played two playthroughs so far. One where I didn't ascend Astarion, and one where I did. I loved both experiences, and see the good with the struggles in both. Because there are struggles in both, but that doesn't mean everything ends there in black and white. I don't care how the game thinks trauma recovery works, the writers are still human, as am I. I might be totally wrong about all of this, but relationships, love, emotions, trauma don't all get processed the same way, sometimes things turn out for the worse, the better or somewhere in between. There's so many experiences people have all around the world, everyone has their interpretations of what a healthy relationship looks like, what a healthy way to deal with trauma looks like, some will completely dismiss or rebuke some interpretations and that's okay, I'm not beyond criticism and it's none of my business, whatever works for others works. If I happened to write a relationship in a video game, I wouldn't be beyond my human judgement, we're fallible and we have biases, I'll likely be writing with at least some modicum of personal bias even if I take inspiration from other people's experiences. This is going to be a pretty long read, like, over 2000 words kind of read. But if you don't like ascending Astarion and you don't wanna hear about it period, then I just want to leave a disclaimer here that I'll be talking in favor of it. It has a lot to do with my personal journey and experiences in life, so while I really, really loved both endings, I couldn't help but enjoy the ascended more purely due to how I personally related to it. Okay. Let's get into it. To when I first met Astarion. (some self reflection but I relate it to him in the end). Man I really didn't like him.. at first. Then I did, kind of like him. In the beginning he reminded me of someone. And as I got to know him more I realized that someone was actually me and not who I initially thought it was. Then it made a lot of sense right away. Why I found him so annoying. At times I kind of hated him. Realizing this, I thought about myself more, the parts I didn't like anyways. And then the parts that I did. I grew to love him in time. I really get where he comes from with a lot of things. I looked at him, and I started to see so much of myself there. There, right there standing in front of me, not a caricature but a real person. And when I found myself staring into what felt like the abyss itself, despair, it would dawn on me just how difficult it is to look at yourself, perceive yourself. When I saw him I would see too much. Or at least so much that I couldn't decide whether I was feeling a kindred warmth, a content sadness, disgust, love, sometimes it pained me dearly. But how could I look at these parts, these parts in him, and love them, love him so much, when I didn't look toward those parts I had with the same tenderness. How could I love him, when I didn't love myself. Those words never meant anything to me before. The phrase didn't have any meaning in my heart. And now it does. Then when I would look at him, I still felt all of those things, but with less disgust, less hatred, less pain, less.. sadness. Now, I would feel.. worry, the warmth, the comfort of home, the feeling of safety, love. And then I liked myself a little more. I was much kinder to myself than I ever have before. It made me realize I'm not so bad. Not just a thought but a great comfort. And then, I realized that no matter what, I wasn't going to leave his side. A lot of people feel this way about themselves until they're shown otherwise with support. I believe Astarion, isn't any different. It's a video game, and it's a character, but it went beyond that when both but especially the latter affected me how they did. Which.. is why this is my interpretation of things when ascending him, the next line I'll say is gonna sound like "what the fuck" but if someone does hear me out then thank you, I appreciate it. I personally think all relationships are 'predatory'. (Maybe I could use a different word? Yeah okay, definitely a different word LOL) And I don't think or see that as inherently something negative, some are more and some are less but all relationships have a give and take. 1/4
And I really like this one. Because this one requires a lot of trust and patience on your side, and someone who really needs both before being able to give just as much back. I sympathize with Astarion, especially in the ascension route. He follows eerily in the steps of his abuser, but not quite. He doesn't truly compel you. You're able to have conversations of disapproval about his actions and the relationship even after everything with the absolute is over, some dialogue choices even lead to him saying something like 'This again?' as he sighs lol. He lets you disagree and speak your mind often. I'm surprised he would let Tav/Durge have so much agency at all if he supposedly turns them into a spawn. It still makes me wonder why, and I think despite his fears and despite not wanting to lose you, he still wants you to express yourself and love him and willingly, if he didn't care enough about that then I'm sure he would just enthrall you. And on some level he wants to be better than Cazador, he's expressed that he is, so if he were to compel you that probably wouldn't bode so well on his conscience. I read about the bride theory here recently and.. In the rules it says they bride/groom can't be compelled. But they are still bound to one another, like a magical marriage contract. Both parties have to agree to let go for the bond to break. This means that if the roles were reversed and Astarion wanted to break up with Tav/Durge, then he can't do it without Tav/Durge's permission and Astarion can't kill them without harming himself. They both have to be willing to "sign the papers". It makes a lot of sense if he's just lying to you so you're afraid of the possibility of getting enthralled/compelled without him actually having the power to do that to you. So like what I thought initially, he wants you to express yourself and and love him willingly, he wants to better than Cazador, everyone and everything in his life have been taken away from him or left so the fear of that really comes through here, etc, etc.. whether he decides to share this information with you one day is another thing. This is manipulative, but if he does care about you this comes off to me as a 'test' of sorts. I call it 'shit testing' which isn't healthy but it's something people with a lot of low, warped self esteem and trust and abandonment issues typically do. So, while toxic, this explains why Astarion is so evasive about whether he can actually compel you or not. He might simply be lying to buy himself time to feel out the situation. It's like he's chasing you away. Then, if you run, it only confirms his thoughts about you. Doesn’t he say something like "You've finally shown your true colors at last" like he's saying, "Gotcha! I knew you never loved me!" It's certainly toxic, I know I've behaved that way before with friends and lovers and had to work on not doing crap like that. It's totally a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. I believe that both ascendant and unascendant Astarion still have problems when his personal quest ends. They're just on different journeys to recovery. Things just aren't as simple as black and white. And they certainly aren't here no matter how much easier it would be to believe so and call anyone who thinks otherwise deluded, lol. When I found out about this it made me kind of sad and it gripped at my heart. So I have a feeling my character would work toward ways to reassure him/let him feel like he can trust her more before bringing it up, and if he never does then she will. I think the bride thing might be a way for him to protect Tav/Durge from himself, while still ensuring they’ll stay with him. He doesn't trust himself entirely clearly, and I sympathize with that. It's not so easy to accept that maybe you are reliable and worthy of trust without someone showing you that first. Link to the bride theory with more details. www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17qonm3/an_oddly_specific_thing_about_ascendant_astarion/ Anyways.. going back to the cycle of abuse topic, I was a lot like that when given the opportunity to finally not feel utterly helpless. I took it. I hated myself for it, the guilt and shame. But I'm glad the person I cared most about never left my side through it all, I'll spend my life making up to them for the hurt. Astarion has forever to figure himself and everything he's went through out and what he wants in the future from here. Yes, he's still afraid. Of losing you. Of others. Of losing agency. So he overcompensates with control. When it comes to you, I think he genuinely does love you, but it's taken on the form of possession because he's still insecure. When he feels like he finally has complete agency, he sees ascension as the fix to everything. When the reality is.. it isn't. And all he really wants, is to feel safe. 2/4
I think he can have that in both endings, I think whether he chooses to ascend or not, both are ways to cope with the trauma he's gone through. Both will have their struggles if he is to heal, though one more greatly than the other (ascension) as the copium is more easily accessible to him. It'll be easier to distract himself with his newfound power trip from becoming more intimate with his feelings of fear and distrust with everyone and the world. Easier to shy away from healing. But I believe in him. He's defensive and prickly now that he has his 'fix', expecting if not desperately begging for it to fix everything, if it won't, if he has all this power and he is still afraid, if he still loses you, what was the point? He actually alludes to the last thing in the epilogue, he says something along the lines of all his power would amount to being pointless without you at his side - that you complete him. It's complicated. But this is my interpretation of the events and because of that I didn't want to leave his side, still don't. Now is when I felt he was at his most sensitive and most troubled, I couldn't leave him like that. If you are more understanding towards him after ascension, he still gets defensive but he doesn't lash out at you. And I don't mean bending over backwards for him, you don't need to say whatever you think he wants to hear. I chose the dialogue options which aligned with what I did want to actually say to him "I hope you learned something from this" to me choosing something about power and sex that I can't quite remember, and then I chose "I wanted you to feel safe" after he asked me why I was fine with letting him do the ritual. He was defensive, and upset about the conversation. After I picked the last option he disapproved. But then, I was given four more options, one of them being me telling him that I still want to work things out together, I did, so I chose that and he approved. In that moment, IMO he responds very genuinely and it's telling. In his words, in his voice, his eyes. There are more moments like this, moments of care, residing by the fear and insecurity. And when I came across them I couldn't for a moment think that someone who can display and feel those things lost their soul in any way. Which is something many people say about him but.. I feel like that's a cop out to make things easier in a black and white sense. A lot of people don't like ascending Astarion because it's not all clear sweetness and vulnerability from the beginning, so acting like he just lost his soul to Mephistopheles rather than this just being part of who he is as a person if he chooses to take power after 200 years of abuse and terror is more simple. For many people, if they take offense to that.. well, lol. It's easier for many people to believe "No, that's not him! he's not there anymore. He's so mean and arrogant now." And I just lol at the idea because this is just another way victims of abuse can act when they actually feel like they have the power to. It's not that he suddenly doesn't have a soul. It's that there's a lot he bites his tongue on when he doesn't feel like he could get away with it before ascending. You can say that he turns evil (aligned) therefore he's incapable of love. And while you can say he turns evil, I don't agree with the entire statement, it's incorrect. Evil aligned people are more than capable of having real emotions, the only difference is the reasoning/morality behind it. And again, regarding him losing his soul, there's no proof that he did. Cazador was the one who actually made the deal with Mephistopheles, so if anyone's soul was on the line.. And we know how devils are with their deals, they'll deliver but there might just be a catch 22. The catch 22 likely being that any of his spawn could carve the same rituals into his back and become the vampire ascendant. Another one that I keep hearing is that Vampires in D&D canonically don't have souls. Ok, maybe in the rule book, but in BG3? For the ritual, you need 7007 souls to sacrifice. And what were they? Vampires. Even Cazador (a True Vampire) was sacrificed and his soul counted. And if we were going by the book, that means Spawn Astarion would also not have a soul, so what's the point? Depending on how you treat him after he ascends, his line delivery the morning after will actually be different. If you react negatively, he actually sounds scarier and grandiose, which is unfortunately what most people come across. When you're more understanding and accepting, he actually sounds much more mellow and gentle. From my understanding he's just afraid you will reject him the way he is now. And while he still has insecurities and he's still afraid, he really did get a boost of confidence, he does have more power now in a sense, but most importantly now he feels like he has much more agency. When you react negatively or outright push him away.. he might just feel what you're really rejecting is an Astarion with agency. 3/4
The ways he reacts to your rejection, and the way he reacts to you wanting to end things makes complete sense, a lot of people say things to hurt their companion if they themselves are hurt, scared, and want to deflect from their own feelings. It's so clear to me that it's purely reactionary and he wants to avoid feeling the pain of such loss. Despite everything, he's proven to me with actions and words that.. He's still still him. And not beyond a better outcome if he ascends for himself and Tav/Durge. Not at all. And it is not just up to you. It is mostly up to him to find those vulnerable parts of himself and come face to face with them again. In time, having someone there with him who is understanding and patient through it all will likely help him find his way toward that road more, I was given that. I can't help but sympathize with him. On an off note after only a few months, he seems to have mellowed out a lot more than I expected in the epilogue. He still says possessive things to you, but on a lesser scale. He admits that he can't keep you all to himself and encourages you to go mingle with the others. Based off of my own personal experiences, and, well, everything written above, I'm hopeful. And his development only makes me more so. Lol at him asking you to come right back to him if they drop any tea. ☕ This was long, but I guess I thought a lot about it, and I wanted to share my opinions. Whatever choices you guys made while playing the game, I hope you enjoyed yourselves. Cause I really did, man. Also I really want to thank some users on their theories and takes on Astarion, and his character in general. I took some paragraphs, ideas and wording sometimes directly from another person because I completely agreed with them word for word, and felt I couldn't say it better. When I talked about the bride theory for example. I first heard of it from a youtuber going by 'Nyloth' and then from the user 'VampireDuckling8' who made a post going into more detail on it. Wording from the users 'Yharmeru' and 'RochR0k' was also input, specifically their replies to the bride post link I shared. And there's a one more post made by the user 'lt9093' along with the replies in it from 'Yharmeru' I took inspiration from to write mine. Here is 'lt9093''s post. www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/16je2n1/thoughts_on_ascended_astarion/ And the bride one again, for ease of access. www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17qonm3/an_oddly_specific_thing_about_ascendant_astarion/ tl;dr The healing process will be a struggle and not a fairytale, as I think it is in both routes - ascension and spawn, but one more so. Ascension will have some slightly bigger copium to get past before being more consistently vulnerable and yet, I'm hopeful. One of the many reasons I say this is because I sympathize with the feeling of complete helplessness, powerlessness of control for years. Then getting an opportunity to regain it, feeling wracked with guilt after choosing the way I went about it, not realizing I still felt scared and powerless until someone close to me helped me to. 4/4
That was lovely to read, and I‘m glad you managed to move past the worst of your trauma responses. As for Astarion, I‘m currently playing a mostly neutral Durge. I‘l purposely confront Orin, and deny Bhaal, before facing Cazador. Lead by example, you know? This is my second playthrough (neutral evil asexual Drow Tav the first time), this time romancing Astarion and Halsin (because I CAN, lol), and I‘ve decided to just accept whatever triggers. Because this Durge is 100 % serious about her relationships. Though Ascanded Astarion is going to be kinda awkward because 1: I‘m ace, and all these scenes are really hard to sit through, and 2: my husband’s in the room when I play, so going full vampire romance is gonna be even more awkward. Because I will go in-character vampire. =D I also like the Bride/Groom interpretation. That’s my headcanon, and since there is a psychic connection, my Durge will be pretty relaxed about it. Replacing one insatiable urge for another, really. At least this one can be temporarily satisfied.
Astarion: On your knees My Tav (no hesitation): Yes Master, anything for you Master. Narrator: he will see you as degrading yourself, but prehaps thats what you want Me: Damn game, you got me there. Astarion: I won't need to compel you, you'll be obedient Me: Damn right I will Narrators VA: If you fancy Astarion, you need therpy Me: Got me again, where's my phone
and whenever he says "yes my treasure" he twirls so cutely and and he calls you his little love, saying he doesn't intend to die unless YOU do, always putting YOU before him in every sentences n etc
Just one question… in D&D lore you become a true vampire by drinking another true vampire’s blood. I don’t think Ascended Astarion wants Tav to become a True Vampire, but he speak of them drinking his blood. So, how would this work exactly? Is it different because he’s ascended?
apparently the vampire has to willingly grant the spawn freedom??? its very vague but its implied the previous vampire almost always dies before a new spawn rises up
I think in BG3 one drop (as much as Astarion admits to giving) is not enough whereas the DnD lore doesn't specify what amount of blood. Although you can bite him and it still doesn't make you a full vampire, so I think it's mostly the devs not wanting to give both of you extra powers, so probably some nonsense about needing more than a bite
I Think, because of his love /obsession Of Tav and that Astarion as Ascendant, Is more than willing to turn Tav into a "True Vampire" (Because no matter what (romanced) Tav is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in the world to Astarion!) - The part that everyone misses, is that as an Ascendant, Astarion has the power to control Both Vampires AND spawn alike. So, Yes, you will become a full Vampire and be his "Sovereign" (Queen/King) BUT, he still has the ability to control you, should Tav ever decide to go against Astarion.
@@FranWest. where did you get that an Ascended vampire can control other full vampires? We'll know he'll develop more powers over time but I do not recall this one in particular being mentioned anywhere
@@ChangesOfTomorrow - Well, it's not specifically stated anywhere, but the black mass will "Amplify ALL of his vampiric traits" (one of which is controlling spawn.. Those turned by the vampire) Astarion is not a "vampire" though, he is "a new creature entirely". So anything he turns, spawn or Vampire, he will have control over. Also, like Astarion says if you ask him to "make you a vampire like him" - He states, there will "never be another vampire like him" - Which is true... He can't just make you a Vampire Ascendant, with all that entails (Warm, living heart, "the appetites of man returned"etc..). (I suppose one could pretend to imagine that you could perform another black mass, IF you could make the same deal with Mephistopheles (sp)) but that is highly unlikely to ever happen. - I read somewhere once, that if you do a full evil dark urge, baals chosen/Ascendant Astarion, he mentions that they will find a way for dark urge to be an Ascendant too... But idk how true that is.. I could never go full evil..LOL
The people spewing so much garbage about Ascended Asty clearly haven’t actually played his Origin run as ascended to get his personal insights nor have they probably actually romanced him ascended past the ritual to see how much he chills out and just how much he is still the same person. Please pay attention to the lore of Ascended vampires in game. They are literally alive again with a heartbeat (revealed in his origin run), their mortal emotions and drives return to them, they no longer experience the maddening bloodthirst of a vampire, they lose the weaknesses of a vampire and keep the strengths. He isnt mad, it’s just a lot for him adjust to that night and he tells you this himself. Yeah he lashes out if you dump him but you legitimately just broke his heart what do you expect? The man is very wounded inside so if you hurt him he will say anything to hurt you back and probably doesn’t mean it.
@@aquamarinerain vampire brides made with the vampire lords blood can’t be compelled it’s literally in dnd lore, astarion knows it he’s just not telling tav 🤷🏻♀️ also why on earth would i break up with him get outta here with that weirdness
@@aquamarinerain I know a grown adult isnt telling me, another grown adult they don’t even know, how I should view and interpret a fictional character in a fictional story meant to be a choose your own adventure fantasy 🤡 And spawn aren’t made with the vampire lord’s blood and they have to be buried. Tav drinks a small amount of astarions blood and isn’t buried, this aligns with dnd vampire bride lore, do some research before telling me I’m wrong. Vampire brides are a type of spawn.
@kelsey190 also you obviously don’t give a crap about real victims of abuse if you’re going to say things like “you’re acting like a battered wife” that’s pretty disgusting my dude. And you think ascended astarion is evil 🤡
The first thing I did in act 3 was ascend Astarion.....and then refused to kneel after.nailing him one last time cause I'm a female Drow and males are lesser than to females in Drow society so a female would never kneel to a male, EVER. That, and I read his thoughts. He broke up with me. /frustrated That too isnt allowed in Drow society and would be grounds for execution. Only the females can end the relationship at thwir whim. Also, my Drow is a worshiper of Kiaransalee the drow goddess of the undead and vengeance. My Drow wants to be a Lich. I have a WHOLE quest line that could go from act 1-3 to become a lich as a Mod, and you would need Astarion's help to do it. I even have a reconciliation for if you succeed and ascend him. Just need talented modders.
As a huge fan of drows and one who tries to read all the books with them, (War of The Spider Queen and the forgotten realms series by R.A Salvatore is amazing) I love how you're playing true to a female drow. Bravo! I'm playing as a half drow follower of Eilistraee. So not as cruel but still cunning. 😅
No, in Vampire lore. U would only be a spawn. This is one of the ways to turn one. It’s a more sexual nature. But technically he is a master Vampire now once he ascended and all the others are nothing more then spawn to him. I think that’s another thing about this scene.
And I'm sure neither Astarion nor Mephistopheles are factoring in Bhaal, who likes to let his playthings tire themselves out before he consumes them. (for want of a better way to put it). His plans tend to cover a lot of time and territory and being "dead" has only made him patient. Of course, I'm coming from the perspective of having played the first BG games. I haven't gotten to this point, so I'm making what could be inaccurate assumptions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@plasmocat1863 Mephistopheles may have planned for Bhaal, but not Astarion. Or Cazador. And Astarion (or, as I like to call him, Ascendion) has no idea what is actually in that contract. Which is EXACTLY the type of thing Mephistopheles plays with.
@@tymora11 you can find the Black Mass scroll while exploring - 7000 thousands souls sacrificed to Mephistopheles in return for the Ascended power and Astarion can also read about the ritual at the end of the Necromancy of Thay, so he would know what he signed up for. Much like some of Raphael's deals we see, not every one is for the soul of the benefitting party.
He’s shallow. BUT illithids lose their soul and are shells of the person they used to be , crafted from their memories by the parasites.emperor and Karlach are good examples. Omeluum I’m not sure about they seem genuinely good or with good intentions.
Nope apparently no or maybe not yet? He’s full on lost his soul at this point. He’s just a shell of his former self. Filled with memories with you that he loved and cherished, but that is all. His moral compass doesn’t exist anymore. He’s just as selfish and arrogant as his master was now.
This is one of the reasons why I will always choose to ascend Astarion 😁😍 Also, Astarion finally got his freedom and power to rule over people! My love for villains never fades!
Astarion’s story is about the cycle of abuse, and the way I see it the choice to complete the ritual is the choice to perpetuate it. He was a victim for so many years, and now that he gained power he wishes to victimise the rest of the world. He says he will be different, but every word out of his mouth is a lie. It’s masterfully written.
I also like how it accurately depicts how EASY it is for someone abused to choose to become an abuser.
@@Tea_Noire yes. The cycle of abuse is a constant in life. An abuser is most often an abused victim too, and when they dont break from the cycle they repeat it. Cazador had a master who was cruel too, and now astarion has taken his place.
'You're going to be wonderfully obedient." --> "Thou shall obey me in all things"
"Just don't stray too far. But you'd never dream of doing that, would you?" --> "Thou shall not leave my side unless directed"
" I wish to sequester you in a deep chamber of my palace and keep you all to myself" --> "Thou shall know that thou art mine"
Dude couldn't even wait until the tadpole is gone before reciting Cazadors (Vellioths) rules.
BRROOOOOO I DIDN’T EVEN REALIZEEEEEEE
... maybe he will learn to follow the rules in a healthy way? Like... don't stray too far? Might mean, don't get lost? Or sequestered could mean, He wants us to know each other and spend quality time together. And that isn't so bad, is it? It's about perspective, right?
"Don't stray too far" is a practical rule in this case - if Tav gets too far, Astarion's protection from sunlight won't work, and Tav will be cinders. Presumably, though, Astarion will tighten the leash as he adjusts to his new power and status. @@JasmineGeminiDragon
Lmao, I know. Best case scenario for Tav in this plotline is that he/she has a relentless submission/degradation kink. The moment there’s any push back, there’s going to be a problem.
@@JasmineGeminiDragon Vampires undergo an alignment shift to evil after transformation. Most forms of undead (even the mindless ones, if left unattended) are possessed with hatred of the living, though vampires remain among the closest to humanity and the most able to mingle with it.
He calls you beautiful but sees you as degrading yourself by being with him. Every word is a lie to hide his own fears of inadequacy.
Even losing his humanity to the ritual, he still has some of it, mainly those insecurities. He's so afraid of the loneliness he faced during abuse, and so attached to the person who was saving him (as doing the ritual ends the path of you actually helping him heal) that he refuses to let them go. As hot as the words sound, he doesn't mean them the way a real dom does. His love isn't real love anymore, it's a love of ownership of the thing he felt empowered him.
I haven't even played this game, yet I've fallen for this character so much. When Ascendant Astarion speaks, there's hints of the character you love as well as an underlining darkness that makes your love for him give way to fear. Your desire to be with him is no longer a choice of your own, but a demand from someone who knows he has the power to make you stay regardless of how you feel. And he will.
It truly is terrifying, and I don't think people can understand it. But imagine. Wanting to rather die than become someone's plaything or slave, and you don't even have that choice, because he'd rather turn you into an obedient spawn as a mocking gesture. Then having to stay with a monstrous thing in place of someone you did care for, now there to use you instead of love you. Ugh, don't even wanna imagine such a degrading and cruel fate.
I feel... like he's power mad. Litterally in a never-ending psychosis. He's lost... and irrideamable. Trully.
Not if you listen to the withers cut content ending lines about him.
Well... never say never. He could get better?
@@FranWest.Ooh that’s interesting. What did Withers say?
Yeah, what did he say? I don't have the capability to play this game yet😢😢
@@saradenunzio4700 - Sadly its 90% karlach/Astarion - (probably due to the fact that they never finished the withers end credits for all characters. But, if you are curious: Here:
ua-cam.com/video/yXSfqCvClW8/v-deo.html
The creaking tin can sounds in the background are subtly hilarious. Bro found ultimate power, but he still can’t find a quiet set of armor.
On the one hand, I don't begrudge him the power he's gained, but then is he so mean and you know he's lying with every syllable.... at the same time you wish that he means everything single word like he said. The threat in his last sentence...wow.
This is better than cinema. Thanks for sharing. I am always amazed at this mega acting performance.
It's all a lie but a "beautiful lie nonetheless"~
Ascended Astarion is TERRIFYING in my opinion. The man that once was is no longer there and he will NEVER be coming back. I couldn’t EVER stay with someone like the person he becomes. The Monster he becomes.
skill issue
I don’t know if this is official d&d lore (this might have been GM world building), but full vampires in d&d loose their souls while spawns do not. I’m pretty sure Cazador did not have a soul to sacrifice, but Astarion did. (This might not transfer to the video game, if it is even official lore, but it’s something to think about.) Also maybe there’s just enough of Astarion’s empathy left to not want Tav to be soulless. Though the relationship is still as toxic as it can get. Even if Tav still has a soul as a spawn, Astarion has full control over them and is continuing the cycle of abuse Cazador started. Astarion might not be as bad as Cazador yet, but he just might end up there.
Astarion has already achieved all that Cazador wanted to achieve. He is new to the ascended status, just learning all his new abilities. In time, he may very well acknowledge that having his consort be at an adequate level of power, could benefit him personally too. But that's a when, sometime in decades or maybe centuries. Rather than a thing in the near future.
@@aquamarinerain Those were the words of a spawn freshly freed from his enslavement, thanks to the illithid tadpole. He had extremely limited experience with full vampires besides Cazador at that point. The vampiric perspective covers many millennia, potentially. It is hard to predict what the future will bring and what challenges they will encounter. He may need the backing of someone whom he can trust, who is the power of a full vampire. Or need to empower them to avoid losing them to someone targeting him by trying to kill those he loves. A spawn is little more than a mortal in this context, whereas a full vampire may stand a fighting chance. Endless possibilities really.
@@aquamarinerain Over time perspective can change. A creature new to a condition will have a different point of view than one secure in their role after a century or two. He cannot know what the future holds. He clearly wants the player character by his side. If, eventually, maintaining that relation requires freeing the spawn, he may do it. Or not. It is somewhat unpredictable. Keep in mind that in D&D, spawn receiving orders going against their own nature/preferences, do receive saving throws against it. Spellcasting spawn retain their spellcasting ability and can use some abjuration and divination spells to foil and fool supervision. Not sure how familiar you are with D&D magic system, but a spellcasting higher lvl spawn and a non-caster master vampire is not the same as a lvl 1 rogue spawn with a master who is a much higher lvl spellcaster.
Yes, they do hint at it.
SPOILER BELOW
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If you choose to give Astarion over to the hunter in Act 1, at the end you get to kill Cazador yourself and you can read his dreams while he’s sleeping in his coffin. This way you find out that he’s a prisoner in his own body and has no free will.
Love this take which is my headcannon. My Tav gives gentle nudges in a better direction and tries to limit the bloodshed and mayhem.
Oh he's scary as the ascended Astarion
I've never played baulder's gate 3 and only got into it for astarion (gonna buy it when it goes on sale in november) but through all the different videos I've seen of this character this really doesn't sound like him at all, and I can understand why the 'ascended' ending is considered the bad ending to most people. Astarion never WANTED the night. He never wanted to rule the world. He wanted revenge, and then he wanted his life back. He didn't want to cast the world in darkness and make a safe haven for himself so he wouldn't be hurt anymore, he wanted to CHOOSE. But this? Here he seems to have lost his choice. "I hear the whispers of the night but I do not yet understand its language" he's once again being compelled by something, no longer his own person.
And yeah that plus the obvious dialogue line in the 'good' ending where he thanks you and says he was blinded by the swell of blood and hysteria while he was killing cazedor, that it would've been a bad idea for him to complete the ritual.
I love the very OBVIOUS set up that Astarion ascended is eventually going to repeat the cycle of abuse with us if we ever went against him "of course you're going to be obedient." big red flag oof. XD still love both versions of this elf though
This was my fear and why I was unwilling to ascend him. OMG do those words sound so hot off his lips, but he doesn't mean them. He isn't really a dom, a trusted partner indulging in a kink, he really intended to own you. To control you. To hurt you if you fall out of line. His stopped healing the moment he ascended. But helping him see past the power-lust gives him the space to break the cycle or abuse and heal. And as a survivor of something similar I wanted that for him. I was willing to risk our whole relationship and the only partner I had built to fight back to back with for just a fraction of a chance that he could maintain his humanity. Unconditional love and all that jazz.
What he isn’t telling you is that in DnD a vampire bride (made by draining her blood and then drinking some of the vampire lords blood and never buried) cannot be compelled and has free will. This is exactly how he changes tav in game.
He literally can’t compel tav but isn’t saying so. Tav will figure it out.
It all comes down to he is afraid of not having you honestly. As an ascended vampire his mortal emotions have returned to him, he isn’t “mad.” He is legitimately alive again with a beating heart and he wants to share his eternity with you, and he can not actually compel you.
So glad to see an accurate take that isn’t hating on him because of the flaws. None of the companions are perfect they each have their flaws. Though I feel Karlach got done dirty in her endings ( she seems the kindest in my opinion and the most normal despite her trauma ).
Certain thinks my Tav hates but while she has her limits and is strong willed she is also patient so she gives him a chance and benefit of the doubt even if some of the behaviors like the bite kiss piss her off. On the turning night she absolutely hated being made to kneel and hesitated to do it before with a begrudging sigh did so for him knowing what her options were. She has her boundaries but is fairly tolerant and will occasionally bend her morals for him like when they did the ritual she didn’t like any of her options but what he said about let thier sacrifice mean something was probably the only time she agreed with his coercion.
I'm grateful for the clips of ascended Astarion because, similar to the genocide route of Undertale, I'm very adamantly saying "no no no no no no no no no no no no" to doing this in my playthroughs. I wanna protect the cinnamon roll side of our boy 😢
I kinda wish if you took this path in the romance and he makes you a spawn, that he actually gets to influence the end. After all, a vampire can compel their spawn no problem, so wonder if he actually can do this at the end given how much he talks about controlling the brain n shit.
The tadpole prevented Cazador from influencing Astarion, so same with the player character as his spawn. I think that's why you can no longer break up with him in the post credit scene - there's no more tadpole to grant the PC the autonomy to do so.
@@ChangesOfTomorrow what happens if you let him turn you into a spawn, then you break up with him, and then you free yourselves of the tadpole? because after you're free of the tadpole, he doesn't let you break up with him. so i'm curious if he compels you to get back with him if you broke up with him earlier on
@@acapybara3032 @acapybara3032 he gets angry and after a few long rests will claim he was only using you and didn't think you had it in you to break up. Personally, it all sounds like sour grapes to me but there are people using this as proof Ascended Astarion didn't love Tav, so it's open for interpretations. In data mined cut epilogue there's a line about Ascended Astarion missing Tav but thinking it's beneath him to reach out first.
@@ChangesOfTomorrow damn that's wild. i wish there was a mod to add back cut content
@@acapybara3032 - I did this for science..lol - Let him turn you, break up with him, then immediatly go fight the brain. It basically breaks the ending, and Astarion. Sometimes when you talk to him, its like he is NOT ascendant, and sometimes he is. Then at the "Ending" scene on the docks, he is Fine standing in the sun (as ascendant) and is fine doing w/e Tav decides they want to do. There is no "romance" Inn room scene, the game just ends as you have no romance.
I've played two playthroughs so far. One where I didn't ascend Astarion, and one where I did. I loved both experiences, and see the good with the struggles in both. Because there are struggles in both, but that doesn't mean everything ends there in black and white. I don't care how the game thinks trauma recovery works, the writers are still human, as am I. I might be totally wrong about all of this, but relationships, love, emotions, trauma don't all get processed the same way, sometimes things turn out for the worse, the better or somewhere in between.
There's so many experiences people have all around the world, everyone has their interpretations of what a healthy relationship looks like, what a healthy way to deal with trauma looks like, some will completely dismiss or rebuke some interpretations and that's okay, I'm not beyond criticism and it's none of my business, whatever works for others works.
If I happened to write a relationship in a video game, I wouldn't be beyond my human judgement, we're fallible and we have biases, I'll likely be writing with at least some modicum of personal bias even if I take inspiration from other people's experiences.
This is going to be a pretty long read, like, over 2000 words kind of read. But if you don't like ascending Astarion and you don't wanna hear about it period, then I just want to leave a disclaimer here that I'll be talking in favor of it. It has a lot to do with my personal journey and experiences in life, so while I really, really loved both endings, I couldn't help but enjoy the ascended more purely due to how I personally related to it.
Okay. Let's get into it. To when I first met Astarion. (some self reflection but I relate it to him in the end).
Man I really didn't like him.. at first. Then I did, kind of like him. In the beginning he reminded me of someone. And as I got to know him more I realized that someone was actually me and not who I initially thought it was. Then it made a lot of sense right away. Why I found him so annoying. At times I kind of hated him.
Realizing this, I thought about myself more, the parts I didn't like anyways. And then the parts that I did. I grew to love him in time. I really get where he comes from with a lot of things. I looked at him, and I started to see so much of myself there.
There, right there standing in front of me, not a caricature but a real person. And when I found myself staring into what felt like the abyss itself, despair, it would dawn on me just how difficult it is to look at yourself, perceive yourself. When I saw him I would see too much. Or at least so much that I couldn't decide whether I was feeling a kindred warmth, a content sadness, disgust, love, sometimes it pained me dearly. But how could I look at these parts, these parts in him, and love them, love him so much, when I didn't look toward those parts I had with the same tenderness.
How could I love him, when I didn't love myself. Those words never meant anything to me before. The phrase didn't have any meaning in my heart. And now it does. Then when I would look at him, I still felt all of those things, but with less disgust, less hatred, less pain, less.. sadness. Now, I would feel.. worry, the warmth, the comfort of home, the feeling of safety, love.
And then I liked myself a little more. I was much kinder to myself than I ever have before. It made me realize I'm not so bad. Not just a thought but a great comfort. And then, I realized that no matter what, I wasn't going to leave his side. A lot of people feel this way about themselves until they're shown otherwise with support. I believe Astarion, isn't any different.
It's a video game, and it's a character, but it went beyond that when both but especially the latter affected me how they did.
Which.. is why this is my interpretation of things when ascending him, the next line I'll say is gonna sound like "what the fuck" but if someone does hear me out then thank you, I appreciate it.
I personally think all relationships are 'predatory'. (Maybe I could use a different word? Yeah okay, definitely a different word LOL) And I don't think or see that as inherently something negative, some are more and some are less but all relationships have a give and take.
1/4
And I really like this one. Because this one requires a lot of trust and patience on your side, and someone who really needs both before being able to give just as much back.
I sympathize with Astarion, especially in the ascension route. He follows eerily in the steps of his abuser, but not quite. He doesn't truly compel you. You're able to have conversations of disapproval about his actions and the relationship even after everything with the absolute is over, some dialogue choices even lead to him saying something like 'This again?' as he sighs lol. He lets you disagree and speak your mind often. I'm surprised he would let Tav/Durge have so much agency at all if he supposedly turns them into a spawn. It still makes me wonder why, and I think despite his fears and despite not wanting to lose you, he still wants you to express yourself and love him and willingly, if he didn't care enough about that then I'm sure he would just enthrall you. And on some level he wants to be better than Cazador, he's expressed that he is, so if he were to compel you that probably wouldn't bode so well on his conscience.
I read about the bride theory here recently and..
In the rules it says they bride/groom can't be compelled. But they are still bound to one another, like a magical marriage contract. Both parties have to agree to let go for the bond to break. This means that if the roles were reversed and Astarion wanted to break up with Tav/Durge, then he can't do it without Tav/Durge's permission and Astarion can't kill them without harming himself. They both have to be willing to "sign the papers".
It makes a lot of sense if he's just lying to you so you're afraid of the possibility of getting enthralled/compelled without him actually having the power to do that to you. So like what I thought initially, he wants you to express yourself and and love him willingly, he wants to better than Cazador, everyone and everything in his life have been taken away from him or left so the fear of that really comes through here, etc, etc.. whether he decides to share this information with you one day is another thing. This is manipulative, but if he does care about you this comes off to me as a 'test' of sorts. I call it 'shit testing' which isn't healthy but it's something people with a lot of low, warped self esteem and trust and abandonment issues typically do. So, while toxic, this explains why Astarion is so evasive about whether he can actually compel you or not. He might simply be lying to buy himself time to feel out the situation.
It's like he's chasing you away. Then, if you run, it only confirms his thoughts about you. Doesn’t he say something like "You've finally shown your true colors at last" like he's saying, "Gotcha! I knew you never loved me!"
It's certainly toxic, I know I've behaved that way before with friends and lovers and had to work on not doing crap like that. It's totally a self-fulfilling prophecy situation.
I believe that both ascendant and unascendant Astarion still have problems when his personal quest ends. They're just on different journeys to recovery. Things just aren't as simple as black and white. And they certainly aren't here no matter how much easier it would be to believe so and call anyone who thinks otherwise deluded, lol.
When I found out about this it made me kind of sad and it gripped at my heart. So I have a feeling my character would work toward ways to reassure him/let him feel like he can trust her more before bringing it up, and if he never does then she will. I think the bride thing might be a way for him to protect Tav/Durge from himself, while still ensuring they’ll stay with him. He doesn't trust himself entirely clearly, and I sympathize with that. It's not so easy to accept that maybe you are reliable and worthy of trust without someone showing you that first.
Link to the bride theory with more details.
www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17qonm3/an_oddly_specific_thing_about_ascendant_astarion/
Anyways.. going back to the cycle of abuse topic, I was a lot like that when given the opportunity to finally not feel utterly helpless. I took it. I hated myself for it, the guilt and shame. But I'm glad the person I cared most about never left my side through it all, I'll spend my life making up to them for the hurt. Astarion has forever to figure himself and everything he's went through out and what he wants in the future from here.
Yes, he's still afraid. Of losing you. Of others. Of losing agency. So he overcompensates with control. When it comes to you, I think he genuinely does love you, but it's taken on the form of possession because he's still insecure. When he feels like he finally has complete agency, he sees ascension as the fix to everything. When the reality is.. it isn't. And all he really wants, is to feel safe.
2/4
I think he can have that in both endings, I think whether he chooses to ascend or not, both are ways to cope with the trauma he's gone through. Both will have their struggles if he is to heal, though one more greatly than the other (ascension) as the copium is more easily accessible to him. It'll be easier to distract himself with his newfound power trip from becoming more intimate with his feelings of fear and distrust with everyone and the world. Easier to shy away from healing.
But I believe in him. He's defensive and prickly now that he has his 'fix', expecting if not desperately begging for it to fix everything, if it won't, if he has all this power and he is still afraid, if he still loses you, what was the point? He actually alludes to the last thing in the epilogue, he says something along the lines of all his power would amount to being pointless without you at his side - that you complete him.
It's complicated. But this is my interpretation of the events and because of that I didn't want to leave his side, still don't.
Now is when I felt he was at his most sensitive and most troubled, I couldn't leave him like that.
If you are more understanding towards him after ascension, he still gets defensive but he doesn't lash out at you. And I don't mean bending over backwards for him, you don't need to say whatever you think he wants to hear.
I chose the dialogue options which aligned with what I did want to actually say to him "I hope you learned something from this" to me choosing something about power and sex that I can't quite remember, and then I chose "I wanted you to feel safe" after he asked me why I was fine with letting him do the ritual. He was defensive, and upset about the conversation. After I picked the last option he disapproved.
But then, I was given four more options, one of them being me telling him that I still want to work things out together, I did, so I chose that and he approved. In that moment, IMO he responds very genuinely and it's telling. In his words, in his voice, his eyes.
There are more moments like this, moments of care, residing by the fear and insecurity. And when I came across them I couldn't for a moment think that someone who can display and feel those things lost their soul in any way.
Which is something many people say about him but.. I feel like that's a cop out to make things easier in a black and white sense. A lot of people don't like ascending Astarion because it's not all clear sweetness and vulnerability from the beginning, so acting like he just lost his soul to Mephistopheles rather than this just being part of who he is as a person if he chooses to take power after 200 years of abuse and terror is more simple. For many people, if they take offense to that.. well, lol.
It's easier for many people to believe "No, that's not him! he's not there anymore. He's so mean and arrogant now." And I just lol at the idea because this is just another way victims of abuse can act when they actually feel like they have the power to. It's not that he suddenly doesn't have a soul. It's that there's a lot he bites his tongue on when he doesn't feel like he could get away with it before ascending.
You can say that he turns evil (aligned) therefore he's incapable of love. And while you can say he turns evil, I don't agree with the entire statement, it's incorrect. Evil aligned people are more than capable of having real emotions, the only difference is the reasoning/morality behind it. And again, regarding him losing his soul, there's no proof that he did. Cazador was the one who actually made the deal with Mephistopheles, so if anyone's soul was on the line.. And we know how devils are with their deals, they'll deliver but there might just be a catch 22. The catch 22 likely being that any of his spawn could carve the same rituals into his back and become the vampire ascendant.
Another one that I keep hearing is that Vampires in D&D canonically don't have souls. Ok, maybe in the rule book, but in BG3? For the ritual, you need 7007 souls to sacrifice. And what were they? Vampires. Even Cazador (a True Vampire) was sacrificed and his soul counted. And if we were going by the book, that means Spawn Astarion would also not have a soul, so what's the point?
Depending on how you treat him after he ascends, his line delivery the morning after will actually be different. If you react negatively, he actually sounds scarier and grandiose, which is unfortunately what most people come across. When you're more understanding and accepting, he actually sounds much more mellow and gentle.
From my understanding he's just afraid you will reject him the way he is now. And while he still has insecurities and he's still afraid, he really did get a boost of confidence, he does have more power now in a sense, but most importantly now he feels like he has much more agency. When you react negatively or outright push him away.. he might just feel what you're really rejecting is an Astarion with agency.
3/4
The ways he reacts to your rejection, and the way he reacts to you wanting to end things makes complete sense, a lot of people say things to hurt their companion if they themselves are hurt, scared, and want to deflect from their own feelings. It's so clear to me that it's purely reactionary and he wants to avoid feeling the pain of such loss.
Despite everything, he's proven to me with actions and words that.. He's still still him. And not beyond a better outcome if he ascends for himself and Tav/Durge. Not at all. And it is not just up to you. It is mostly up to him to find those vulnerable parts of himself and come face to face with them again. In time, having someone there with him who is understanding and patient through it all will likely help him find his way toward that road more, I was given that. I can't help but sympathize with him.
On an off note after only a few months, he seems to have mellowed out a lot more than I expected in the epilogue. He still says possessive things to you, but on a lesser scale. He admits that he can't keep you all to himself and encourages you to go mingle with the others. Based off of my own personal experiences, and, well, everything written above, I'm hopeful. And his development only makes me more so. Lol at him asking you to come right back to him if they drop any tea. ☕
This was long, but I guess I thought a lot about it, and I wanted to share my opinions. Whatever choices you guys made while playing the game, I hope you enjoyed yourselves. Cause I really did, man.
Also I really want to thank some users on their theories and takes on Astarion, and his character in general. I took some paragraphs, ideas and wording sometimes directly from another person because I completely agreed with them word for word, and felt I couldn't say it better. When I talked about the bride theory for example. I first heard of it from a youtuber going by 'Nyloth' and then from the user 'VampireDuckling8' who made a post going into more detail on it. Wording from the users 'Yharmeru' and 'RochR0k' was also input, specifically their replies to the bride post link I shared. And there's a one more post made by the user 'lt9093' along with the replies in it from 'Yharmeru' I took inspiration from to write mine.
Here is 'lt9093''s post. www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/16je2n1/thoughts_on_ascended_astarion/
And the bride one again, for ease of access. www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17qonm3/an_oddly_specific_thing_about_ascendant_astarion/
tl;dr
The healing process will be a struggle and not a fairytale, as I think it is in both routes - ascension and spawn, but one more so. Ascension will have some slightly bigger copium to get past before being more consistently vulnerable and yet, I'm hopeful. One of the many reasons I say this is because I sympathize with the feeling of complete helplessness, powerlessness of control for years. Then getting an opportunity to regain it, feeling wracked with guilt after choosing the way I went about it, not realizing I still felt scared and powerless until someone close to me helped me to.
4/4
That was lovely to read, and I‘m glad you managed to move past the worst of your trauma responses.
As for Astarion, I‘m currently playing a mostly neutral Durge. I‘l purposely confront Orin, and deny Bhaal, before facing Cazador. Lead by example, you know?
This is my second playthrough (neutral evil asexual Drow Tav the first time), this time romancing Astarion and Halsin (because I CAN, lol), and I‘ve decided to just accept whatever triggers. Because this Durge is 100 % serious about her relationships.
Though Ascanded Astarion is going to be kinda awkward because 1: I‘m ace, and all these scenes are really hard to sit through, and 2: my husband’s in the room when I play, so going full vampire romance is gonna be even more awkward. Because I will go in-character vampire. =D
I also like the Bride/Groom interpretation. That’s my headcanon, and since there is a psychic connection, my Durge will be pretty relaxed about it. Replacing one insatiable urge for another, really. At least this one can be temporarily satisfied.
"AsCeNdEd AsTaRiOn Is SuPeR mEaN, wHy WoUlD aNyOnE aScEnD hIm?"
My Tav: He called me his little pet and we get to spend an eternity together 🥰🥰
Right? Like I get that it's not for everyone, but I'm freaky like that. Let me enjoy being his plaything, damn it.
Astarion: On your knees
My Tav (no hesitation): Yes Master, anything for you Master.
Narrator: he will see you as degrading yourself, but prehaps thats what you want
Me: Damn game, you got me there.
Astarion: I won't need to compel you, you'll be obedient
Me: Damn right I will
Narrators VA: If you fancy Astarion, you need therpy
Me: Got me again, where's my phone
Yep. Pet? Property? No problem. Come show me that deepest chamber of your palace. 😂
and whenever he says "yes my treasure" he twirls so cutely and and he calls you his little love, saying he doesn't intend to die unless YOU do, always putting YOU before him in every sentences n etc
@@mimmikyu4452 he speaks and behaves as courteous and confident prince after ascension. Has his right though.
Ascended Astarion is best Astarion, gods, I adore him ❤
Just one question… in D&D lore you become a true vampire by drinking another true vampire’s blood. I don’t think Ascended Astarion wants Tav to become a True Vampire, but he speak of them drinking his blood. So, how would this work exactly? Is it different because he’s ascended?
apparently the vampire has to willingly grant the spawn freedom??? its very vague but its implied the previous vampire almost always dies before a new spawn rises up
I think in BG3 one drop (as much as Astarion admits to giving) is not enough whereas the DnD lore doesn't specify what amount of blood. Although you can bite him and it still doesn't make you a full vampire, so I think it's mostly the devs not wanting to give both of you extra powers, so probably some nonsense about needing more than a bite
I Think, because of his love /obsession Of Tav and that Astarion as Ascendant, Is more than willing to turn Tav into a "True Vampire" (Because no matter what (romanced) Tav is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in the world to Astarion!)
- The part that everyone misses, is that as an Ascendant, Astarion has the power to control Both Vampires AND spawn alike. So, Yes, you will become a full Vampire and be his "Sovereign" (Queen/King) BUT, he still has the ability to control you, should Tav ever decide to go against Astarion.
@@FranWest. where did you get that an Ascended vampire can control other full vampires? We'll know he'll develop more powers over time but I do not recall this one in particular being mentioned anywhere
@@ChangesOfTomorrow - Well, it's not specifically stated anywhere, but the black mass will "Amplify ALL of his vampiric traits" (one of which is controlling spawn.. Those turned by the vampire) Astarion is not a "vampire" though, he is "a new creature entirely". So anything he turns, spawn or Vampire, he will have control over.
Also, like Astarion says if you ask him to "make you a vampire like him" - He states, there will "never be another vampire like him" - Which is true... He can't just make you a Vampire Ascendant, with all that entails (Warm, living heart, "the appetites of man returned"etc..).
(I suppose one could pretend to imagine that you could perform another black mass, IF you could make the same deal with Mephistopheles (sp)) but that is highly unlikely to ever happen.
- I read somewhere once, that if you do a full evil dark urge, baals chosen/Ascendant Astarion, he mentions that they will find a way for dark urge to be an Ascendant too... But idk how true that is.. I could never go full evil..LOL
The people spewing so much garbage about Ascended Asty clearly haven’t actually played his Origin run as ascended to get his personal insights nor have they probably actually romanced him ascended past the ritual to see how much he chills out and just how much he is still the same person.
Please pay attention to the lore of Ascended vampires in game. They are literally alive again with a heartbeat (revealed in his origin run), their mortal emotions and drives return to them, they no longer experience the maddening bloodthirst of a vampire, they lose the weaknesses of a vampire and keep the strengths. He isnt mad, it’s just a lot for him adjust to that night and he tells you this himself.
Yeah he lashes out if you dump him but you legitimately just broke his heart what do you expect? The man is very wounded inside so if you hurt him he will say anything to hurt you back and probably doesn’t mean it.
@@aquamarinerain vampire brides made with the vampire lords blood can’t be compelled it’s literally in dnd lore, astarion knows it he’s just not telling tav 🤷🏻♀️ also why on earth would i break up with him get outta here with that weirdness
@@aquamarinerain I know a grown adult isnt telling me, another grown adult they don’t even know, how I should view and interpret a fictional character in a fictional story meant to be a choose your own adventure fantasy 🤡
And spawn aren’t made with the vampire lord’s blood and they have to be buried. Tav drinks a small amount of astarions blood and isn’t buried, this aligns with dnd vampire bride lore, do some research before telling me I’m wrong. Vampire brides are a type of spawn.
@kelsey190 they actually don’t, I’ve read the devnotes, stop reaching.
@kelsey190 also you obviously don’t give a crap about real victims of abuse if you’re going to say things like “you’re acting like a battered wife” that’s pretty disgusting my dude. And you think ascended astarion is evil 🤡
@@darkurgediariesI've been looking for the vampire bride variant, no results after a cursory search on google and wikis. Where can I find it?
The first thing I did in act 3 was ascend Astarion.....and then refused to kneel after.nailing him one last time cause I'm a female Drow and males are lesser than to females in Drow society so a female would never kneel to a male, EVER. That, and I read his thoughts. He broke up with me. /frustrated That too isnt allowed in Drow society and would be grounds for execution. Only the females can end the relationship at thwir whim. Also, my Drow is a worshiper of Kiaransalee the drow goddess of the undead and vengeance. My Drow wants to be a Lich. I have a WHOLE quest line that could go from act 1-3 to become a lich as a Mod, and you would need Astarion's help to do it. I even have a reconciliation for if you succeed and ascend him. Just need talented modders.
As a huge fan of drows and one who tries to read all the books with them, (War of The Spider Queen and the forgotten realms series by R.A Salvatore is amazing) I love how you're playing true to a female drow. Bravo!
I'm playing as a half drow follower of Eilistraee. So not as cruel but still cunning. 😅
Did you use a mod to get this Tav face? I cant seem to find it in character creation. Maybe Im just blind lol.
Hi, what's the name of the hair mod you're using, I think it's beautiful.
I think it's this one but not sure (De-Accessorized NPC Hairstyles)
@@dilly_1996 ty
wait but if we drink his blood, don't we become a full vampire? Why is he saying we'll drink his blood if he wants us as just a spawn?
No, in Vampire lore. U would only be a spawn. This is one of the ways to turn one. It’s a more sexual nature. But technically he is a master Vampire now once he ascended and all the others are nothing more then spawn to him. I think that’s another thing about this scene.
Don’t listen to the previous person, if you drank more of his blood you would be a full vampire.
@@aquamarinerain vampire brides are NOT full vampires they are spawn.
BS. Mephistopheles doesn't get or hold his position by offering freedom.
And I'm sure neither Astarion nor Mephistopheles are factoring in Bhaal, who likes to let his playthings tire themselves out before he consumes them. (for want of a better way to put it). His plans tend to cover a lot of time and territory and being "dead" has only made him patient. Of course, I'm coming from the perspective of having played the first BG games. I haven't gotten to this point, so I'm making what could be inaccurate assumptions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@plasmocat1863 Mephistopheles may have planned for Bhaal, but not Astarion. Or Cazador. And Astarion (or, as I like to call him, Ascendion) has no idea what is actually in that contract. Which is EXACTLY the type of thing Mephistopheles plays with.
@@tymora11 Exactly The devil is always in the details--or the small print at the bottom of the scroll. lol
The fact Astarion NEVER tries to find out what the full details of the contract is... ever. Like, there's ALWAYS fine print.@@tymora11
@@tymora11 you can find the Black Mass scroll while exploring - 7000 thousands souls sacrificed to Mephistopheles in return for the Ascended power and Astarion can also read about the ritual at the end of the Necromancy of Thay, so he would know what he signed up for. Much like some of Raphael's deals we see, not every one is for the soul of the benefitting party.
He call you beautiful and then in illithid ending he dump you lol
He’s shallow. BUT illithids lose their soul and are shells of the person they used to be , crafted from their memories by the parasites.emperor and Karlach are good examples. Omeluum I’m not sure about they seem genuinely good or with good intentions.
This is after becoming his spawn? Is there a way to get a “good” ending with ascended Astarion?
Nope apparently no or maybe not yet? He’s full on lost his soul at this point. He’s just a shell of his former self. Filled with memories with you that he loved and cherished, but that is all. His moral compass doesn’t exist anymore. He’s just as selfish and arrogant as his master was now.
closest you'd probably get is being durge and being a murder couple
what is the song in the bg?
Song of balduran
This is one of the reasons why I will always choose to ascend Astarion 😁😍 Also, Astarion finally got his freedom and power to rule over people! My love for villains never fades!
Like Astarion himself said: "I have no problem doing what's right, once I have the power...."
True evil. I likes It. But in really Life this kind of people are Murder. Good writing anyway.