The thing about chess and complication: chess is “simple” enough that the best players can have a depth of knowledge that’s so profound that it becomes incredibly complex. The movement of the pieces is straightforward enough, but the books upon books of opening theory, the underlying dynamics of position, they all point to a situation where once you know more than a little about chess, you realize you haven’t even scratched the surface. Maybe such a depth is possible in Warcraft, but the game might have too many variables to get that deep, too many ways in which randomness and small factors prevent the game from becoming theoretical. Maybe someone takes a slightly different path when moving, and it leads to an opponent having one more attacking unit in position earlier in a fight, and that’s enough. But there’s so much “noise” like that that it’s hard to get to the pure signal of the game. Chess is almost zero noise, almost entirely signal.
I think you're exactly right. Chess is just factually a simpler game mechanically, but that simplicity allows it to be a much cleaner game of strategy. In an RTS, while theoretical perfect play is likely far harder than chess, in practice most of the strategic nuances are swamped by stuff like "build your units efficiently" and "control your army better than your opponent." Execution is far more important than strategy in basically any RTS, so strategy ends up taking a back seat and becoming simple.
To add the the chess v. WC3 or other games. The fog of war only complicates things because you have to work with a deprivation of information. Like certainly Magnuson would lose more often if you played chess where the other half of the board was hidden.
If you consider movement in Wc3, it is far more complicated than chess. WC3 is chess on a more grand, real time scale with more unit variation and more movement options. I play chess. Never made it to master, but there is no way WC3 is less complicated than chess. Both opponents have a set number of units that either are aware of and LOS is irrelevant in chess. WC3, if thought about in terms of chess, is on an entirely different level. You can't just assume each others openings in WC3, whereas, in chess there is no fog of war. You know the opening your opponent is playing in chess. It's not even arguable. WC3 is far more complex than chess. Chess was just the first worldwide accepted strategy game. WC3 wouldn't exist without chess, but it is far more complex nonetheless.
Demolishers were the real MVP here, it's very clear how much better they are than glaives. The latter might need some additional flat damage buffs to become useful!
feels like every game has the same 3 stages - 1) team 1 gets early stack, pushes down tower, and equilibrium is established near team 2 fort. 2) Eventually team 2, with fort support, gets a stack, pushes down team 1 tower, and equilibrium is established near team 1 fort. 3) eventually, with fort support + more gold mines/upgrades gained from early game dominance, team 1 stacks and wins.
Chess is a very complicated game but the amount of moves and variables are higher in warcraft what you click first the order and play time are all longer as well as the game size a map is larger than a chess board but I'd say the strategies are very similar when you boil it down it's litealy like 3d chess with 4 colours (being the difrent races) it's just like having slightly difrent pieces you can make instead of getting what you got
considering all the comments talking about chess (and people on stream talking about chess) maybe grubby should play chess on stream Grubby mentioned Tyler1, maybe Grubby vs tyler1 in chess or maybe the only way to get Grubby to play chess is to make a warcraft3 custom map of it or maybe we need grubby vs tyler1 in direct strike
I think your need for symmetry really makes your army predictable. Try a more scattered approach, late arriving tanks are never bad if you're winning they will be in place for the 2nd army you face
Is there a reason you didn't go life drain on DR? There were a few times I think she would've stacked with the army behind if she had it. Like at 22:30.
Even walking is more complicated than chess. It doesn't mean that walking harder to master than chess. Just our brains work that way that it is easier to learn how to walk than master in chess.
Grubby isn't wrong and he is being objective but I think saying comments like "Blank is more complicated then chess" isn't a very useful consideration that only frustrates people who take Chess seriously. Obviously Grubby understands what it's like to not be taken seriously because you "play a game for a living" so I'm sure he can relate to why Chess players are sensitive to people under valuing it.
@@KeemzOpenDoors Walking has rules. Do not fall to the ground and try to transfer your body from point A to point B. If it's not the game it doesn't mean there are no rules
@@byrondejong9872 If a person takes chess seriously, it’s hard to upset them with such comments. I wanted to convey that something seemingly very simple can actually be very complex but is easy to grasp. Vise versa something very difficult seems easy. It’s quite a feat to remember all the move combinations in chess, isn’t it?
@@СергейПастухов-э2м wc3 is far more advanced that chess. It wouldn't exist without chess, but think of it as a more complicated version. In chess, you always see your opponents moves. That alone makes the argument invalid.
If RTS were less complex than chess than you would not need to wait until AlphaStar before computers started beating world class players. No humans can beat top computers in chess for a much longer time.
lol using this same logic, chess was so simple that computers could quickly run all the permutations and be dominant for a long time. Meanwhile WC3 was so complicated and had so many different playstyles that it was much harder for computers to analyze every little possible move and so humans were dominant for longer.
All I know is that as a kid I figured out that the computer couldn't figure out how to use boats. You don't need to figure out how to use boats in chess.
You Control positioning and spells. You can Turn spells ON and Off, thats it. So you can choose which spells they cast, but you cant choose the Targets.
That first quell thalas on a level 2 hero really isnt good, the second one you buy really is better and the third is better yet. I think. Would be fun to see a stacked demonhunter (again, but more exteme focus on items)
Hi, Grubby! I`ve never played this custom game, but I`ve watched every video of yours on it. I`ve mostly spent my gaming time playing PVE in World of Warcraft. When I`m in a fight there, I look for "burst windows", where I use offensive buff spells to boost my damage on mobs that need to die in a specific time period and that made me think, even if it`s not directly corelated. So I`ve been wondering... If you put all your damage units in 1 big ball and let them focus enemy front line 1 by one, instead of having them spread, wouldn`t it reduce your damage taken by just having less units attacking you. This would mean less overall dps for your army, but i feel it would be more meaningful dps. Of course, this is situational. I would like to hear your opinion on it. Much love, sorry for the essay.
Some of the hard cc have made into soft cc. So invis makes their target invis but only for a brief moment, but allows the unit to keep attacking while invis.
@@davidm2031 think of Dreadlords sleep ability, it makes an unit unable to act for X seconds. This would be an ability described as "hard crowd control" cause it is basically removing an entire unit and doesn't allow it to cast spells or attack with its effect. In an auto battler like this, battle is very messy and everyone wants to attack closest targets rather than systematically kill off enemies one by one. So to make sure your army doesn't interrupt your own sleep (or benefit of being invis) they have made the effects last way shorter but lose this weakness of not being able to be used in combat in a mayhem way like this. And my first sentence is incorrect, I guess what I wanted to mean was that they've edited some abilities to make them more usable
@@Tradeosmuggle completely understand now. I appreciate your time, man! Thanks! Your first comment makes perfect sense now. Just wasn't familiar with the term soft and hard CC. That's kinda why I asked cuz I knew it couldn't work the same as in the base game. Thanks again! 👍
Every mine costs about 200g, that could have been stats to hold the middle lane that is also worth gold. And after you have invested in a mine, sure you will have more gold income but it will have to generate enough for the lost value of not having a unit, the lost value of itself being bought and then enough for 1-2 more units so you can justify the total value gotten. This delay for mines also paying themselves back increases with number of mines
"Not to support any war" means to support the attacking aggressor in "any war". Look away, you must at least have a position. Although, of course, this channel is not about that, the answer is disgusting. Like no one to be offended, suddenly invaders and murderers are looking at me.
Grubby is the friendly neighborhood plug that everyone loves, just smiles and gets you addicted to all the stuff hes on.
The thing about chess and complication: chess is “simple” enough that the best players can have a depth of knowledge that’s so profound that it becomes incredibly complex. The movement of the pieces is straightforward enough, but the books upon books of opening theory, the underlying dynamics of position, they all point to a situation where once you know more than a little about chess, you realize you haven’t even scratched the surface.
Maybe such a depth is possible in Warcraft, but the game might have too many variables to get that deep, too many ways in which randomness and small factors prevent the game from becoming theoretical. Maybe someone takes a slightly different path when moving, and it leads to an opponent having one more attacking unit in position earlier in a fight, and that’s enough. But there’s so much “noise” like that that it’s hard to get to the pure signal of the game. Chess is almost zero noise, almost entirely signal.
I think you're exactly right. Chess is just factually a simpler game mechanically, but that simplicity allows it to be a much cleaner game of strategy. In an RTS, while theoretical perfect play is likely far harder than chess, in practice most of the strategic nuances are swamped by stuff like "build your units efficiently" and "control your army better than your opponent." Execution is far more important than strategy in basically any RTS, so strategy ends up taking a back seat and becoming simple.
To add the the chess v. WC3 or other games. The fog of war only complicates things because you have to work with a deprivation of information. Like certainly Magnuson would lose more often if you played chess where the other half of the board was hidden.
Back to the safe place
Played one league TD decided DS was better
If you consider movement in Wc3, it is far more complicated than chess. WC3 is chess on a more grand, real time scale with more unit variation and more movement options. I play chess. Never made it to master, but there is no way WC3 is less complicated than chess. Both opponents have a set number of units that either are aware of and LOS is irrelevant in chess. WC3, if thought about in terms of chess, is on an entirely different level. You can't just assume each others openings in WC3, whereas, in chess there is no fog of war. You know the opening your opponent is playing in chess. It's not even arguable. WC3 is far more complex than chess. Chess was just the first worldwide accepted strategy game. WC3 wouldn't exist without chess, but it is far more complex nonetheless.
Google's AlphaStar (starcraft playing AI) calculated an average of 10²⁶ legal possible moves in every moment vs Chess with about 35
Demolishers were the real MVP here, it's very clear how much better they are than glaives. The latter might need some additional flat damage buffs to become useful!
feels like every game has the same 3 stages - 1) team 1 gets early stack, pushes down tower, and equilibrium is established near team 2 fort. 2) Eventually team 2, with fort support, gets a stack, pushes down team 1 tower, and equilibrium is established near team 1 fort. 3) eventually, with fort support + more gold mines/upgrades gained from early game dominance, team 1 stacks and wins.
I mean, it's a pretty bad balanced custom game. Takes time to iron it out.
@@emilgebl8644 The game has been out for years dude. It already is extremely well balanced
Pretty sure this is a reupload, or maybe I've been watching so much Grubby direct strike that it's all starting to blend together
i really like the turin colab, i watch both of your content
that is one spicy looking wisp you have there
Chess is a very complicated game but the amount of moves and variables are higher in warcraft what you click first the order and play time are all longer as well as the game size a map is larger than a chess board but I'd say the strategies are very similar when you boil it down it's litealy like 3d chess with 4 colours (being the difrent races) it's just like having slightly difrent pieces you can make instead of getting what you got
Teammate needs to micro taunt to cancel channel spells
How big part of you liking this mode is the awesome explode animation at the end?:)
considering all the comments talking about chess (and people on stream talking about chess)
maybe grubby should play chess on stream
Grubby mentioned Tyler1, maybe Grubby vs tyler1 in chess
or maybe the only way to get Grubby to play chess is to make a warcraft3 custom map of it
or maybe we need grubby vs tyler1 in direct strike
The original RTS
Grubby, I think you'd really enjoy footman vs grunt
blitz chess on a much larger board
Wow so you can duplikate items from hero wich stacked to hero who died in the battel cool !!
Chess is mostly remembering variations and cramming
What is the yellow/blue shield passive on the knight? I dont remember that being in wc3
It's called sundering blades, it gives knight "increase damage dealt to enemy targets with Medium Armor by 10%"
Grubby can you explain when / why to get hero items?
tier1 +tierS hero +4mines must be META NOOBs NEVER KNOW
Convince to have everyone go 4 mines so you can say that you won with 4
I enter for the cleavege bait. I am disappointed in you Mannoroth!
Is it just me or does grubby always creates a reason to get a 3rd mine just to regret it 2 waves later.
I think your need for symmetry really makes your army predictable. Try a more scattered approach, late arriving tanks are never bad if you're winning they will be in place for the 2nd army you face
Is there a reason you didn't go life drain on DR? There were a few times I think she would've stacked with the army behind if she had it. Like at 22:30.
Even walking is more complicated than chess. It doesn't mean that walking harder to master than chess. Just our brains work that way that it is easier to learn how to walk than master in chess.
Walking is not a game with a fixed rule set. The argue is complexity within a fixed rule set.
Grubby isn't wrong and he is being objective but I think saying comments like "Blank is more complicated then chess" isn't a very useful consideration that only frustrates people who take Chess seriously. Obviously Grubby understands what it's like to not be taken seriously because you "play a game for a living" so I'm sure he can relate to why Chess players are sensitive to people under valuing it.
@@KeemzOpenDoors Walking has rules. Do not fall to the ground and try to transfer your body from point A to point B. If it's not the game it doesn't mean there are no rules
@@byrondejong9872 If a person takes chess seriously, it’s hard to upset them with such comments. I wanted to convey that something seemingly very simple can actually be very complex but is easy to grasp. Vise versa something very difficult seems easy. It’s quite a feat to remember all the move combinations in chess, isn’t it?
@@СергейПастухов-э2м wc3 is far more advanced that chess. It wouldn't exist without chess, but think of it as a more complicated version. In chess, you always see your opponents moves. That alone makes the argument invalid.
If RTS were less complex than chess than you would not need to wait until AlphaStar before computers started beating world class players. No humans can beat top computers in chess for a much longer time.
lol using this same logic, chess was so simple that computers could quickly run all the permutations and be dominant for a long time. Meanwhile WC3 was so complicated and had so many different playstyles that it was much harder for computers to analyze every little possible move and so humans were dominant for longer.
@@edwinalvarado3229That is exactly what he said.
@@AnimeCriticalyes, which is why I started it by saying ‘using this same logic’ and then expanded on his statement. Maybe the lol throws people off
All I know is that as a kid I figured out that the computer couldn't figure out how to use boats.
You don't need to figure out how to use boats in chess.
@aprinnyonbreak1290 Which map had Boats that computer couldn't figure out.
In this game you control only the position? Then it is autobattle? Or you can choose which spells, skills are used?
You Control positioning and spells. You can Turn spells ON and Off, thats it. So you can choose which spells they cast, but you cant choose the Targets.
That first quell thalas on a level 2 hero really isnt good, the second one you buy really is better and the third is better yet. I think. Would be fun to see a stacked demonhunter (again, but more exteme focus on items)
Hi, Grubby! I`ve never played this custom game, but I`ve watched every video of yours on it. I`ve mostly spent my gaming time playing PVE in World of Warcraft. When I`m in a fight there, I look for "burst windows", where I use offensive buff spells to boost my damage on mobs that need to die in a specific time period and that made me think, even if it`s not directly corelated.
So I`ve been wondering... If you put all your damage units in 1 big ball and let them focus enemy front line 1 by one, instead of having them spread, wouldn`t it reduce your damage taken by just having less units attacking you. This would mean less overall dps for your army, but i feel it would be more meaningful dps. Of course, this is situational.
I would like to hear your opinion on it. Much love, sorry for the essay.
How does priestess invis work in this mode?
Some of the hard cc have made into soft cc.
So invis makes their target invis but only for a brief moment, but allows the unit to keep attacking while invis.
@@Tradeosmuggle thanks bro! Sounds like it could be a double edged sword.
Also not sure what the first thing you said means :( I might be dumb, idk.
@@davidm2031 think of Dreadlords sleep ability, it makes an unit unable to act for X seconds.
This would be an ability described as "hard crowd control" cause it is basically removing an entire unit and doesn't allow it to cast spells or attack with its effect.
In an auto battler like this, battle is very messy and everyone wants to attack closest targets rather than systematically kill off enemies one by one.
So to make sure your army doesn't interrupt your own sleep (or benefit of being invis) they have made the effects last way shorter but lose this weakness of not being able to be used in combat in a mayhem way like this.
And my first sentence is incorrect, I guess what I wanted to mean was that they've edited some abilities to make them more usable
@@Tradeosmuggle completely understand now. I appreciate your time, man! Thanks!
Your first comment makes perfect sense now. Just wasn't familiar with the term soft and hard CC.
That's kinda why I asked cuz I knew it couldn't work the same as in the base game.
Thanks again! 👍
2:21 wow what a dumb comment 😂
wtf Charm has 7 recharge?
True
❤
Can anyone explain why 4 mine is bad?
Every mine costs about 200g, that could have been stats to hold the middle lane that is also worth gold.
And after you have invested in a mine, sure you will have more gold income but it will have to generate enough for the lost value of not having a unit, the lost value of itself being bought and then enough for 1-2 more units so you can justify the total value gotten.
This delay for mines also paying themselves back increases with number of mines
@@Tradeosmuggle Thank you, that makes sense. So 4th mine is basically impossible (or close to it) to justify due to just the values?
hi
Hey 💐
"Not to support any war" means to support the attacking aggressor in "any war". Look away, you must at least have a position. Although, of course, this channel is not about that, the answer is disgusting. Like no one to be offended, suddenly invaders and murderers are looking at me.
nogge
What do you mean weird when you agreed that some ru WC3 players are weird? I just can`t shake this out of my head. Thank you for video.
13 views in 2 minutes, bro fell off