One of those great games no one has ever herd of. I can remember walking into FLGS and there was always at least one book from HG on the shelves but no one played it or even knew what it was. Anyone remember their Silhouette skill system?
Thanks for the review! My FLGS shopkeeper, knowing my taste and past games, managed to convince me that I really should try out Heavy Gear and sold me a second edition, water damaged book for super cheap. I became a huge fan of Silhouette and its elegant "realistic" design. Sadly I had to trim down my rpg book collection several times in the past. The super worn out 2nd Edition book fell victim to one of those cullings. Notable exception, was Paxton Gambit, which I GMed several times but still held onto, just in case. Tribe 8 was a setting that I always felt that Silhouette/Silcore rules didn't fit. Sadly I never got it to the table.
They are very high and their are rumors of a new Tribe 8 but it won't be the Silhouette system, if the rumors are accurate. Supposedly it will be PbtA, but it's just rumor.
@@FMD-FullMetalDragon Tribe 8 is one of those "holy grail system" settings (like Star Wars or Shadowrun). I pondered over an alternative system a lot in the past, but PbtA is one of the worst choices they could make for Tribe 8.
@@FMD-FullMetalDragon I Believe its planned to be using the Forged in the Dark system, (Blades in the dark, Scum & villainy) not PbTA, so it will at least be more crunchy than a raw PbtA game. that may not be a bad thing for Tribe8 tbh, BitD is a SOLID system, and the much more loosey-goosey nature of the T8 Eminences and Synthesis and how they cover a lot of possible actions within a specific theme/domain actually makes it a much more (conceptually) apt fit for a more narrative system. But given how it appears they've castrated HG4th... I'm not confident they'll do a good job of translating it across.
I am glad I'm not the only one who is let down by the 4th edition. I really wanted this to be excellent, but instead, but it just isn't that great. I suspect that the new system actually works well, but it's been overly-complicated in a deliberate attempt to make it more "modern" and "flexible": reliable dice, undefined attributes, quirks, and player-defined skill lists all sound good, but they just bog things down. I am a fan of the way they've changed the basic mechanic though, with target numbers and dice pool building. I'd love to run something using a stripped down version of the system, but it would require an amount of work that I'm just not willing to do. I will say that while I too adore the 1st and 2nd editions of Heavy Gear, the Silhouette system has some major issue that come up: attributes are way too strong, and long-term campaign play could get a little broken. Still, lots of good times with 2e Heavy Gear, and I guess I'll just keep my PDF of the 4th edition, and that's that.
As a point of reference, the changes to the Silhouette system you highlighted were originally introduced in the wargame (I think the 3rd edition of Heavy Gear Blitz?), and have been transported from there into the new RPG system. They aren't a product of the 4th Edition itself. I don't personally mind the change from multiplication/division to addition/subtraction, but I can definitely see why other people would take issue with it. I will say that it does have two advantages over the old system. The first is is granularity: a weapon with 8x damage could deal 8 or 16 damage but not, say, 12 damage. Moving to addition allows the system to have a smoother damage curve rather than a sharp, staircase pattern. The second is that it removes the need for rounding: let's say you have MoS 4 on an attack with an 8x weapon, for 32 damage total. If that attack is against a target with 7 armor the attack deals a final damage* of 32/7=4.57. Now yes in principle you could just have a rule about how to handle rounding non-integer results like that (and I believe the older system did), but I do think there's something to be said for the simplicity of 4+8-7=5 damage. While I haven't crunched the numbers, I suspect that outside of extreme outliers - think a CEF/PAK hovertank getting into a firefight with a SD Hunter- the final results of both systems are probably going to be at least within shouting distance of each other. Whether or not you feel things like that are worth the costs paid in other areas will of course come down to personal preference, and I don't begrudge anybody for not liking the changes. Long time fans of the older system especially so. At the same time, I don't think it's fair to say that the new system is strictly worse. It just emphasizes different things and as a result has different design priorities. At the end of the day, there's nothing stopping anyone who wants to play 2e from doing so. All the books are still available digitally. I'm not sure how much benefit there would have been in releasing a new edition that plays the same as the old edition when the latter is easily available. * I believe that in the older system armor was divided from the incoming damage to determine the attack's final damage, but it's been a while and I may not be remembering correctly.
The game basically no longer does the things that made it truly great and a real operator in its niche, so that's bound to be a big disappointment to older fans.
@@PostmortemVideo I think I can see where you're coming from on that. I got into Heavy Gear at a later date, and primarily through the wargame, so I realize I don't have the same perspective on this as the longtime veterans. To be honest Silhouette was never a system that really "clicked" for me. It was mostly just something I made do with because I really enjoyed the setting and vehicle designs, so I never got invested enough in it as an engine to have a strong reaction to the changes. It sounds like you did though, and you're understandably frustrated that it moved away from what you enjoyed about it. Honestly DP9 is in a rough position here. One option is to stay true to the core of the game, but risk getting left behind by younger generations of players who have different tastes in RPGs and aren't interested in that sort of game. The game fails to attract enough new blood to replace the older players leaving the hobby, and eventually dies off and becomes a forgotten fossil. The other option is to try and make changes to the game to appeal to those younger generations and draw them into the franchise, but in doing so alienating the dedicated fans who have kept Heavy Gear going up until now. The game continues, but in a "ship of theseus" state where on some level it has ceased to be the same game it started as. Neither of those are good options. I'd like to believe that there's a way to revitalize the game while still maintaining the original spirit, but I'm not sure that's possible. We may be in a situation where DP9 has to pick their poison and commit to it. I'm sorry. This probably comes off as rambling, but this question of "what does the future of these sort of long, multi-decade franchises look like?" is something I've been thinking about recently.
I still kind of want to pick it up. I kept my Jovian Chronicles books but I got rid of my Heavy Gear stuff in a move, and I really miss it. But it's sad to hear it's kind of gone downhill. DP9 mecha games were always the best, setting wise. To me, anyways. A lot better than the byzantine monstrosity that Battletech is and has become. To me, again, at least.
I saw Heavy Gear on DRivethru a few years back, and the art was really appealing, but I could never work out what I was looking at. The listings on the site included various versions, some seemed to be wargame rules and some were maybe RPGs. I bailed on it in the end as it was unclear. At least now, thanks to you, I know 4th Ed is RPG. LOL
The "best" version of HG2e was an updated PDF format that was an actual digital version rather than a scan of the old print editions. DP9 did bring a few PDFs from the olden times into the modern era. Looking at dtrpg, the book that you want would be "Heavy Gear Revitalized - Rulebook 2nd Edition". This is the "modernized" digital version of the good version of the game, using the "good" version of the Silhouette system (prior to the mistake of SilCORE). (They brought many of the old 2e books up to a modern digital format this way. This is the one you want to look for, the Grand-daddy of them all.) The HG Blitz skirmish game is probably the one you want to bring the timeline forward & play in a pure minis game format, but it's not a RPG.
Own a complete run of 1st ed. HG, never found anyone willing to give it a go, too much story and background. No index in 4th sounds like insanity. Didn't know it was happening. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
I will have to dig out my copy of 2nd edition and have a trip down memory lane. I do have fond memories of playing one of the computer games, best game tutorial ever! PS. What was the song at the end of the video?
Good RPG over all. Would love to see more people play it. I know the Alexandria RPG Library has some of the books they will share with people at events.
I was really looking forward to this game but the PoD prices are insane for a basic standard quality rpg book. DP9 must be on crack to think this will sell a lot of print books.
Been DMing HG, T8, JC, from 1997+. Best SF games! for HG 2E was the best, the 4th Edition is not good! geeat review 💜💜 its an effect game you roll high you kill or destroys, you are wound you have penalties a very fasr game! you get to convert your XP in emergency dice to offset penalty. 🤔
Colour me unimpressed by 4E, for a lot of the same reasons you did. Given the IMO ridiculous pricing for the dead tree version, I'll stick to my 2E books or the fanmade D6 version. RE: Blitz damage: Blitz uses MOS + static weapon damage (modified by some weapon traits) - armor value = final damage that gets deducted from hull and structure HP.
I had the 1st edition. The setting is very interesting. The problem was, for me, the mix of RPG and Wargame, it always seemed to be neither fish nor fowl.
![[Pretentious Waffle] Political Games](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TKYYaHOr8jA/mqdefault.jpg)
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One of those great games no one has ever herd of. I can remember walking into FLGS and there was always at least one book from HG on the shelves but no one played it or even knew what it was.
Anyone remember their Silhouette skill system?
It shares with the newest version of the Blitz tactical game. The vehicles have the exact same stats. It not meant to be part of the old system.
I loved those computer games. Tanks were scary af in those games.
Shame this edition isn't a smoother more polished edition.
Thanks for the review!
My FLGS shopkeeper, knowing my taste and past games, managed to convince me that I really should try out Heavy Gear and sold me a second edition, water damaged book for super cheap. I became a huge fan of Silhouette and its elegant "realistic" design. Sadly I had to trim down my rpg book collection several times in the past. The super worn out 2nd Edition book fell victim to one of those cullings.
Notable exception, was Paxton Gambit, which I GMed several times but still held onto, just in case.
Tribe 8 was a setting that I always felt that Silhouette/Silcore rules didn't fit. Sadly I never got it to the table.
"No index."
Were they...high?
"If they were to bring back Tribe 8."
If only, if only.
They are very high and their are rumors of a new Tribe 8 but it won't be the Silhouette system, if the rumors are accurate. Supposedly it will be PbtA, but it's just rumor.
...fuck.
@@FMD-FullMetalDragon Tribe 8 is one of those "holy grail system" settings (like Star Wars or Shadowrun). I pondered over an alternative system a lot in the past, but PbtA is one of the worst choices they could make for Tribe 8.
@@FMD-FullMetalDragon I Believe its planned to be using the Forged in the Dark system, (Blades in the dark, Scum & villainy) not PbTA, so it will at least be more crunchy than a raw PbtA game. that may not be a bad thing for Tribe8 tbh, BitD is a SOLID system, and the much more loosey-goosey nature of the T8 Eminences and Synthesis and how they cover a lot of possible actions within a specific theme/domain actually makes it a much more (conceptually) apt fit for a more narrative system. But given how it appears they've castrated HG4th... I'm not confident they'll do a good job of translating it across.
I am glad I'm not the only one who is let down by the 4th edition. I really wanted this to be excellent, but instead, but it just isn't that great. I suspect that the new system actually works well, but it's been overly-complicated in a deliberate attempt to make it more "modern" and "flexible": reliable dice, undefined attributes, quirks, and player-defined skill lists all sound good, but they just bog things down. I am a fan of the way they've changed the basic mechanic though, with target numbers and dice pool building. I'd love to run something using a stripped down version of the system, but it would require an amount of work that I'm just not willing to do.
I will say that while I too adore the 1st and 2nd editions of Heavy Gear, the Silhouette system has some major issue that come up: attributes are way too strong, and long-term campaign play could get a little broken. Still, lots of good times with 2e Heavy Gear, and I guess I'll just keep my PDF of the 4th edition, and that's that.
As a point of reference, the changes to the Silhouette system you highlighted were originally introduced in the wargame (I think the 3rd edition of Heavy Gear Blitz?), and have been transported from there into the new RPG system. They aren't a product of the 4th Edition itself.
I don't personally mind the change from multiplication/division to addition/subtraction, but I can definitely see why other people would take issue with it. I will say that it does have two advantages over the old system. The first is is granularity: a weapon with 8x damage could deal 8 or 16 damage but not, say, 12 damage. Moving to addition allows the system to have a smoother damage curve rather than a sharp, staircase pattern. The second is that it removes the need for rounding: let's say you have MoS 4 on an attack with an 8x weapon, for 32 damage total. If that attack is against a target with 7 armor the attack deals a final damage* of 32/7=4.57. Now yes in principle you could just have a rule about how to handle rounding non-integer results like that (and I believe the older system did), but I do think there's something to be said for the simplicity of 4+8-7=5 damage. While I haven't crunched the numbers, I suspect that outside of extreme outliers - think a CEF/PAK hovertank getting into a firefight with a SD Hunter- the final results of both systems are probably going to be at least within shouting distance of each other.
Whether or not you feel things like that are worth the costs paid in other areas will of course come down to personal preference, and I don't begrudge anybody for not liking the changes. Long time fans of the older system especially so. At the same time, I don't think it's fair to say that the new system is strictly worse. It just emphasizes different things and as a result has different design priorities. At the end of the day, there's nothing stopping anyone who wants to play 2e from doing so. All the books are still available digitally. I'm not sure how much benefit there would have been in releasing a new edition that plays the same as the old edition when the latter is easily available.
* I believe that in the older system armor was divided from the incoming damage to determine the attack's final damage, but it's been a while and I may not be remembering correctly.
The game basically no longer does the things that made it truly great and a real operator in its niche, so that's bound to be a big disappointment to older fans.
@@PostmortemVideo I think I can see where you're coming from on that. I got into Heavy Gear at a later date, and primarily through the wargame, so I realize I don't have the same perspective on this as the longtime veterans. To be honest Silhouette was never a system that really "clicked" for me. It was mostly just something I made do with because I really enjoyed the setting and vehicle designs, so I never got invested enough in it as an engine to have a strong reaction to the changes. It sounds like you did though, and you're understandably frustrated that it moved away from what you enjoyed about it.
Honestly DP9 is in a rough position here. One option is to stay true to the core of the game, but risk getting left behind by younger generations of players who have different tastes in RPGs and aren't interested in that sort of game. The game fails to attract enough new blood to replace the older players leaving the hobby, and eventually dies off and becomes a forgotten fossil. The other option is to try and make changes to the game to appeal to those younger generations and draw them into the franchise, but in doing so alienating the dedicated fans who have kept Heavy Gear going up until now. The game continues, but in a "ship of theseus" state where on some level it has ceased to be the same game it started as. Neither of those are good options. I'd like to believe that there's a way to revitalize the game while still maintaining the original spirit, but I'm not sure that's possible. We may be in a situation where DP9 has to pick their poison and commit to it.
I'm sorry. This probably comes off as rambling, but this question of "what does the future of these sort of long, multi-decade franchises look like?" is something I've been thinking about recently.
Was that Soloman Kane in the intro?
T'was.
I loved HG and did reviews for a number of the books when I was still doing reviews.
I still kind of want to pick it up. I kept my Jovian Chronicles books but I got rid of my Heavy Gear stuff in a move, and I really miss it. But it's sad to hear it's kind of gone downhill.
DP9 mecha games were always the best, setting wise. To me, anyways. A lot better than the byzantine monstrosity that Battletech is and has become. To me, again, at least.
I saw Heavy Gear on DRivethru a few years back, and the art was really appealing, but I could never work out what I was looking at. The listings on the site included various versions, some seemed to be wargame rules and some were maybe RPGs. I bailed on it in the end as it was unclear. At least now, thanks to you, I know 4th Ed is RPG. LOL
It's all directly compatible with the wargame (or was) which I think is called Heavy Gear Blitz.
The "best" version of HG2e was an updated PDF format that was an actual digital version rather than a scan of the old print editions. DP9 did bring a few PDFs from the olden times into the modern era.
Looking at dtrpg, the book that you want would be "Heavy Gear Revitalized - Rulebook 2nd Edition". This is the "modernized" digital version of the good version of the game, using the "good" version of the Silhouette system (prior to the mistake of SilCORE). (They brought many of the old 2e books up to a modern digital format this way. This is the one you want to look for, the Grand-daddy of them all.)
The HG Blitz skirmish game is probably the one you want to bring the timeline forward & play in a pure minis game format, but it's not a RPG.
Own a complete run of 1st ed. HG, never found anyone willing to give it a go, too much story and background. No index in 4th sounds like insanity. Didn't know it was happening. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
I will have to dig out my copy of 2nd edition and have a trip down memory lane. I do have fond memories of playing one of the computer games, best game tutorial ever! PS. What was the song at the end of the video?
ua-cam.com/video/J3L6AJtX1Dg/v-deo.html
Good RPG over all. Would love to see more people play it. I know the Alexandria RPG Library has some of the books they will share with people at events.
I wish they should have just made new source books that work with the older rule books.
I was really looking forward to this game but the PoD prices are insane for a basic standard quality rpg book. DP9 must be on crack to think this will sell a lot of print books.
How much are they selling it for?
About 100 US @@PostmortemVideo
Been DMing HG, T8, JC, from 1997+. Best SF games! for HG 2E was the best, the 4th Edition is not good! geeat review 💜💜 its an effect game you roll high you kill or destroys, you are wound you have penalties a very fasr game! you get to convert your XP in emergency dice to offset penalty. 🤔
Colour me unimpressed by 4E, for a lot of the same reasons you did. Given the IMO ridiculous pricing for the dead tree version, I'll stick to my 2E books or the fanmade D6 version.
RE: Blitz damage: Blitz uses MOS + static weapon damage (modified by some weapon traits) - armor value = final damage that gets deducted from hull and structure HP.
Oh it’s out.
Nice, art maybe flat in comparison of today. I still like the retro scribblings of an yester year.
I had the 1st edition. The setting is very interesting. The problem was, for me, the mix of RPG and Wargame, it always seemed to be neither fish nor fowl.
Loved the old game. Hopefully this isn't Atlas Games level of rework fail...
Damn. I hadn't seen much before this review, but wasn't liking what I saw. Now I know 4e is garbage.