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@@bamboozled_again Every game that has ever existed should be emulatable. Even though it's the last game in need of preservation effort attention right now, in the past I would download WoW repacks from MMOwned just to have my own self-contained "copy" of the game in a functional state. I didn't care that I was the only user, connecting to my own SQL server. What mattered was that I had complete control over it and could decide for myself whether it ran or didn't. Going further, open source is the only viable future.
As @SuperGamerFan77 pointed out Thor doesnt understand the difference between an EU petition or a proposed law. Through his very US eyes he interpreted it very literally and missed the forest for the trees. If the petition passes It'll be considered by the EU parliament and It'll go through several revisions and industry experts can weigh in on it.
Everquest also have a private server running legally on the second expansion since 2008/09 called Project1999 and that never prevented Daybreak from doing their yearly PTE(play through expansions) servers and still making bank with it.
Janurary this year actually (2024) They can keep the servers up and running, and develop on it aslong as they don't make a "Profit" they can get enough to fund the servers/keep legal council, but not earn beyond that. (Atleast from what I understand.)
As likable as Thor/Pirate Software is, he gives off that insufferable coworker who if you asked “can i go to the bathroom?” He’d respond with “idk, CAN YOU?” Lol. He’s very arrogant and most of his “career advice” would get the average person canned ASAP. He’s very condescending, arrogant, and definitely mentions that blizzardAzon hacker background way too much. Thanks for saying what some in the community needed to hear.
He used to run a group on Second Life, his name was "Maldavius Figtree" and man, the drama and behavior he had back then. And I said that once and someone said "its not him": he runs the "PirateSoftware" group on SL too. He is arrogant, and he has a really nasty attitude behind the scenes unfortunately.
And to quote an FAQ about PirateSoftware: "...they are currently a creative director of Offbrand - a company whose only product is a live service game. His employment is dependent on the very idea live services who can be killed at any point are and should continue to be legal. This and his previous employment at Blizzard constitute a conflict of interest when discussing this topic. "
hey, really surprised you didn't at least credit Accursed Farms for starting the Stop Killing Games movement. It's something that could have far reaching consequence - even to the Right to Repair movement stuff out there - and in an era of ever-decreasing consumer protections, getting the conversation started so that government can catch up to technology is incredibly important.
All what pirate software said is that criminals exist . With his same idea in mind we should not have free water fountains because someone could bottle it and sell it .
I support Ross Scott/Accursed Farms for all the hard work he is doing to try to stop the ending of games that need online connection to function, and that we've paid money for. He has a great channel, and I really hope his EU petition makes an impact in changing these anti consumer practices. Thanks for bringing more attention to the subject.
it ultimately comes down to "how do we make corporations do the right thing when it won't make shareholders money" and if we can figure that out, we might be able to prevent the earth from becoming a smoldering ash heap by 2034. oh yeah and game preservation too i guess
So far in my MMO journey, I haven't found a single dead MMO that can't be played on a private server...The only issue is as games get more fancy, I can see this becoming a harder thing to pull off... 😥
Just to be clear. The "Stop Killing Games" petition is just an outline and HAS to be JUST an outline. Accursed Farms makes it extremely clear why that is the case in the FAQ. also PirateSoftware wasn't a traditional "dev" at Amazon and Blizzard. He worked security and QA, he didn't "develop" anything.
A QA job that he got because his father who worked in Blizzard's like cinema/art team got him that job. So he's a nepo baby that parades around as an "ex Blizzard dev" who has never gotten into game dev at Blizzard talking about game development and calls himself a representative of game devs in general. It's actually impressive.
As an actual MMO game dev with two decades experience, I believe PirateSoftware's opinion is as relevant as of any other gamer. As in, 1 in a billion. I mean, I don't even think mine is that much more relevant than of the average player, why should it be? Maybe I can give more informed opinions when it comes to the implementation and office politics, but that's it.
Same applies to Idyl, and every other person with a platform. No disrespect for any youtubers, I watch this channel because I like it, but don't assume someone knows what they're talking about just because they are famous.
@@madmantheepic7278Ah yes, he was wrong about a take so therefore it discredits everything and he is poser game dev. I have not always agreed with him, but people are multifaceted dude. Hating someone because you disagree with him is extreme. And guess what? Most jobs in the creative arts are done through networking and connections. Doesn't discredit your work on those projects.
At first I was a little afraid you'd be taking Thor's side, but I'm glad you ended up disagreeing with him. Also huge props for getting the word out there about the petition, we're almost half way and we're not even near the 1 year mark, we need every signature we can get.
I feel like the 'you can't experience it like you did originally' is just missing the point of preservation. It is like Elvis being a huge phenomena at the time but if you listen to his stuff compared to modern music and compare him to modern celebrities it is like... Nothing special? I'll never go to an Elvis concert when his stuff was risqué and new. Does that mean the music and history isn't worth preserving? While the laws of it needs to be carefully thought out to prevent shenanigans. I think preserving history and people's access to these video games is way more important than a company's wallet, especially when it comes to abandon products.
I see your point here, and I agree that preserving culture (and, more precisely, the influences of contemporary culture) is important, even if it does not have the same luster to the modern observer. An MMO, unfortunately, is not a piece of traditional art. It's a delicately designed system of mechanics which functions optimally (or even, minimally) when engaged by thousands of concurrent players. Economies, party wait times, clan communities, mentorship all fall apart when the player base shrinks too small. Consider then that the experience of a "preserved" MMO may end up feeling more akin to the plasticky Elvis impersonators on Vegas strip than some sort of historical archival of what the quintessential MMO experience we all loved was actually like. The experience of a burgeoning MMO, like the Elvis concert we'll never be able to attend, will only ever be available to the players who were there.
@@saint.venant I'd compare it to me putting on an MP3 of an elvis song vs the shows back then. (I was about to type CD but my brain went 'shit those are too old'.) Ultimately I'd still rather have access then none at all. It not being a traditional piece of art means little to me. Since this kind of goes beyond MMOs into live service games too (and DRM as was lightly mentioned in the video). The day WoW get shut down I'd consider it better than someone can boot up a private server and fuck around in an empty world (or with a small group of friends) rather than none at all. The day genshin impact stops getting supported I'd rather the people who play it have the choice to pop on some version of it. Still we've also seen with private server communities that they can get healthy populations too! Even if smaller they're warm and welcoming and that is also worth preserving the ability to have. So wonderful experiences can still come from them regardless.
Him saying that private servers invite the destruction of the game is a flawed argument to begin with. Like you said it will happen anyway and there are far more common reasons to bring down an active game, mostly by other companies.
@@lv100Alice the initiative doesn't affect any games already released. It would only affect future games. We don't need any more live service games squeezing money out of the players.
@@lv100Alice The SKG initiative mainly focuses on games that are offered as one-time purchases (aka 'goods', and yes, in certain countries like EU and Australia even digital games can be considered goods), and after some undisclosed period of time become obsolete because devs didn't implement other ways to make it playable (i.e. dedicated servers or P2P). "This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied" - from the initiative. And while Ross Scott, the leader of SKG movement, says it would be nice to have MMOs preserved, he acknowledges that this is probably not gonna happen, at least for some of them. Because certain games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 are accessible after paying for subscriptions. You don't pay your monthly fee, you don't get to play. Fair 'n' square. Textbook definition of a 'service'.
Counter argument to the last point Thor made: yes they are a product of the time they were released in. So is any piece of art. Thats why when you go to an art gallery there's information boards telling you the context and the history. You wouldn't choose not to preserve historical artifacts because they were "a product of their time" would you? No it's not going to be the same as playing the game at it's peak but that's not even the point of preserving it.
City of Heroes Homecoming has shown me the light, really cannot sing its praise enough, and I never loaded up City of Heroes before the private server.
Shoutout to all the Runescape preservation servers throughout the eras. OpenRSC (as shown in the video), but also 2004scape, 2009scape and Darkan (2012) - All run by great people who take 0 donations and just want to let people login to those times again
2009scape is great, definitely the most aesthetic time period for RuneScape I run a copy locally and it's hella fun playing RuneScape as essentially a single player RPG
IMO if any company no longer supports X, then it goes to public domain. That allows individuals to pursue things that are frankly not cost effective for corporations. The thing is the way copyrights work throws a huge spanner into this which is why in some cases it is illegal. So really it is the copyright laws that need to be addressed. Which is a huge can of worms that corporations aren't willing to play fair with which is why hardly anything ever goes to public domain anymore.
It's not as simple as "it goes to public domain." The _idea_ (and many other commenters have pointed out that it's just an idea, purposefully lacking detail) is this: if any company no longer supports X (live service game), then they must publish the necessary tools so that an enthuastic community can suppport that game. Not without cost, but without having to develop tools themselves from the outside looking in. And that's a very important difference.
About TF2 private servers: I played the original Team Fortress mod for Quake a lot back in the day, and so I've been around. Private servers used to be the standard. We always had good control over our communities because of it. They got rid of because it allowed companies to control their product more. Younger people just don't know how much was lost when we went to official servers. Sure, the playerpool is larger, but it's also just random people. With private servers you get to know people.
Something you forget to mention is that, "the crew" was the game which started all of this. Even if you could run a private the crew server, you would still be committing a crime, because you're using unlicensed car brands in your game. P.s. Sorry for the bad English.
I can't believe the disrespect about not discussing City of Heroes in a video about private servers taking over after official servers go offline... You could have made an entire video about the topic talking ONLY about City of Heroes...
Thank you for articulating my own thoughts! Other MMO content creators also seem to skip over coh, and I don't get it. I feel like the story of its official approval was pretty widely shared.
Hey, cool of you to give some exposure to Stop Killing Games, and thanks for your thoughts on the matter! The initative isn't centered around MMOs, but it definitely has the potential to affect them.
Ahh yes, PirateSoftware, the fraud nepobaby who entirely misunderstood the SKG petition, and wouldn't have a conversation with the creator and blocked him instead of having a discussion about it. lmao
I am all for preserving games. While games are transitory experiences, being able to experience something in a certain state is what the medium is about.
In Sony's defense with SWG, they probably have weird licensing stuff to deal with on that one. Might be a little more difficult than just saying "it's ok to make private server"
I would like to mention that many minecraft private servers have terrible monetization practices. but that doesn't prevent some really good servers to exist. yes its lame that there are predatory servers out there, but generally the successful servers do the right thing.. and people move back and fourth between servers all the time. they have their own playerbases that critique the bad owners. there are groups that find pay-to-win servers and they bot/hack to try and serve justice. I would take all that in favor of my game being inaccessible forever. especially when it would take little effort from the devs of the original.
I think something u forgot to mention regarding TF2 is that valve, actually did fix the botting situation in the game. granted it took them 4 years. But they have banned the bots, and actually implemented reporting features on steam specifically for tf2. They also went after github repositories that hosted the code for the bots.
I should've mentioned that NCSoft, the publishers behind City of Heroes actually LICENSED one of the biggest private servers, making it officially legal to run. a very based move from a usually non based company
Great video overall. I just think Idyl missed one of the best examples he could give for his argument: the case with Project 1999 Everquest and Daybreak.
I liked the video, recently (for like a good month or two) the tf2 bot problem has actually been extremely, gone. Bots are actually so hard to run into in the main servers.
I think this is a fantastic idea. LOTRO is super old, and I only just now discovered it and am having more fun with it than I've had playing games in months. I'd never be able to experience it if it had died, and it was kept going by a dedicated fan base who would do whatever they could to preserve it.
Thanks boo bear. Awesome video! I think you have a really interesting perspective. Especially considering how many games are being released that are online only.
The biggest correction I have on the reply to Pirate Software: Subscription based games are not included in Ross's movement since you have an idea as a consumer how long your purchase (usually per month) will last. It also does not require them to release the server executable. "Reasonably playable state" includes basically dumping all the assets to the internet and telling people "good luck downloading 400TB of data." [Edit] this also includes removing multiplayer from some games. Like dumping CoD multiplayer and leaving you with campaign and single player/split screen only. Minor corrections but useful clarifications nonetheless.
Everquest and Project1999 has got to be one of the most interesting official company and private server situation out there for a game that is still active and the publisher still releases their own classic servers.
Something I've thought about on this topic is how the end of a game would be defined. If a game completely overhauls every system in place and the engine so that it's entirely unrecognizable from what it originally was, would the company then be forced to release the IP of the old version of their game? To me, the answer to this question has large implications on how things would play out with future live service games.
I mostly play MMOs in a rather solo capacity, and have played AND VERY MUCH MISS a lot of games which were somewhat unpopular or never really 'took off' and were canned, but are capable of solo play independently of their MMO intent. While some games are being rebuilt by volunteers (Glitch in particular, the browser MMO, released all assets so people could rebuild and continue the project on their own) it takes a TON of effort to get functional, and if those games were not popular in the first place, that's near impossible to do. Having the games playable solo or offline would mean the world to me, it's enough that I'd miss the interactions I'd had with others, but that's much better than missing the game altogether. Requiescat in Pace to: Free Realms, Sky Saga, and yes Glitch, all of which I think about very often and will never be able to revisit.
stop because i'm literally writing my thesis about this topic. i've been a fan of yours for years but i never thought about how i could actually end up citing you as a source!
When you're talking about private servers for MMOs, I'm reminded of Neverwinter Nights. There are plenty of user-made modules hosted on servers (persisted worlds or PWs) akin to fan-made MMORPGs. They're legal since they used the official tools for their intended purpose.
I miss old school games with subscriptions, no cash shops and no time gating. My favourites were rising force online and guild wars 1, and giving people an official/endorsed way to and preserve old games is important imo
i now wander if wildstar has a private server i miss some old games that are now gone i wish the law passes and we can keep playing old games legally and maybe companies will give their source openly when they give up support of the game
I could see paid private servers being the future of MMO's. It solves two big issues: The constant desire for 'fresh' servers, and the desire to not be on a crowded server where you're constantly competing. Another possible future would be MMO's all being single player by design but just allowing for seamless conntection to a multiplayer version
There were no issues to begin with. And paid servers means the company is supporting the game still which this isn’t what this is all about. This is for when supports end.
On the point of the OSRS community servers, I don't remember if EA has done them for Battlefield 2042; but they were a popular thing in the old Battlefield games in the 2010s (3, 4, and hardline for sure I remember seeing a lot of).
Great video. This entire problem exists because of overreaching copyright laws. The solution isn't to force companies to do anything but rather to allow the use of an IP that isn't being actively used. Just like you can't squat on a inactive domain name or enforce a trademark that's not actively being used.
If I was game dev that would have never happen, I would create the perfect game wiht no flaws because I am gamer and I know what gamers want unlike those game developers
"Realistically, the code is still out there" If only he knew of all those games where the source code was completely lost after support has ended, especially old games. If i'm not mistaken, the original source for Starcraft 1, was literally considered lost media until someone found a cd with said code on a dump or something.
Yes when they aren't profitable, BUT people should be able to launch their own private servers and maintain the game after. ideally the comapny gives access to the server's source code, or at least parts that are capable of being released publically. If not, so long as it is allowed to be ran (bonus if it has the companies's blessing) is all that matters. Heck, if for some reason it is brought back at a later time I'm even okay if a private server has to shut down for the sake of an official server being brought on. So long as there is some possibility for people to be able to play the game is the important thing.
TF2 community servers have always been the backbone of the game, some of my favorite gaming memories are just me and like 18 other homies chillin on 2fort shootin the shit and never capping the intel for hours on end.
Valve has always had 1) offline modes for most games, 2) community server support. far from a perfect company, but a good example of what other companies could do to support their games
@@IdylOnTV I agree, also would love to see you try and take a crack at savage/ultimate raiding in FF14 and report back on it, as its mostly seen as the casual/story driven mmo.
while the crew 2 and the crew motorfest arent traditional mmos ubisoft announced that they give those games an offline mode in the future but i doubt giving an offline mode would work on most things
Hey Idly, thanks for telling my friends I'm not as stupid as I seem. It's things like that that would have me democratically vote for you if there had been a poll for MMO prez.
WoW Classic was very different from Vanilla because of changes in the player base. To the point that I liked it a lot less. But I still enjoyed revisiting old WoW even through the flawed lens that is Vanilla. We also learnt a lot about MMOs and confirmed a bunch of things we thought we knew about MMOs (no, turns out it wasn't all just rose tinted goggles). There's value in preserving what we can, even if it's not perfect.
I'd just like to add, that releasing server files for a dead game would be great. The ones which got shut down because they were not profitable enough to run them with a big team. I'd love to play GhostX ultimate just once more. I'd love to be king of the hill just once more in S4League. But until the original company runs the game, I think they should be able to profit from it and decide what to do with the server files.
The whole Project Zanarak(?) thing isn't really private... Jagex would technically still control the server/IP, they're just giving players access to all of the Dev options. I think there needs to be better lingo to use for these types of things.
I'm still stuck on the concept that killing a game would make people play on your private servers. If you killed the game and everyone hated it, then why would they keep playing on a server with even less resources?
Yeah, the logic doesn’t make any sense, this issue has never happened with old or current games either which is only further proof that this is a made up scenario.
The private servers are legal, the illegal part is the client and any modification done to it to connect to said servers. But yes, the server is technically legal, since it's replicating existing behavior, and not stolen from the original software
Nothing exists in this world that can't have holes poked through it. The bottom line for me is licensed/legal private servers should be a right for consumers with few limitations. What should be the actual focus of conversation is the money private servers can make, THAT is a reasonable conversation. I don't think private servers should be limited to just dead games because if a game goes the way of Runescape with the EOC change, where a game is so drastically changed it is effectively dead, I think it should be legal for private servers to exist. But obviously private servers shouldn't be profiting off of someone else's IP. There should either be licensing fees or profit splitting, or something to that effect. Countless times communities prove that they are willing to keep or create projects when there is no or little money involved.
Valve actually has gotten the bots under control. They did it a bit before the summer update and it's been pretty decent since then. Massive ban waves with cheaters and bot hosters crying on social media. It was glorious. We just hope it lasts.
Team Fortress 2 actually STARTED as Private Servers. It's from that era of FPS where the multiplayer was all servers hosted and managed by individuals or clans. And actually, I honestly preferred it. Yes, the pool of players was smaller and so skill disparity could be much larger. But you got to know the people on the servers you played on, you built rapport, and the game felt more like playing with friends. Also, people didn't act like jerks on servers where that wasn't allowed because a MOD was likely to be on and would ban them from the server. For games that have a single player or non-MMO multiplayer (Diablo 3 is a good example, but I also think of Starcraft 2) it is a no-brainer that the Publishers/devs should be compelled to make the games playable after the official servers shut down. Overwatch 1 should still be playable in local multiplayer or private servers. WC3 not Reforged should still be playable without having to try to find a CD. I like Pirate Software. But I think he is objectively wrong on this subject.
Tf2 private servers were the best I knew like 90% of people on there and we'de shoot the shit while playing for hours on end it was truely a sense of community there was even a guy who'd always ALWAYS talk like a announcer, and when he'd join everyone would mimic him and we'de continue about our conversations all in our announcer voices like it was normal till he disconnected.
Thor's arguement against releasing server binaries being that it will encourage corporate sabotage is creative at least. I think his experience with working in security for these games has greatly inflated his view of how likely and damaging such a movement could be.
UO Outlands takes a 1997 game and made it still teeming with life. It's pixelated and top down, but it is the best MMORPG I have played ever. I highly recommend it.
Honestly i feel that Toon-Town handled the shut down in one of the best ways iv seen, Releasing a version true to the original (just removing anything that Disney would shut them down over) and applying patches and some small updates to add features that would have came out or based on the games original ideas. Keeping the game in a playable state. They even had some successful spin off games as well that rebalanced some things and added new areas.
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tldr: bad and dead liveservice games can go, good ones should stay and improve
@@bamboozled_again Every game that has ever existed should be emulatable.
Even though it's the last game in need of preservation effort attention right now, in the past I would download WoW repacks from MMOwned just to have my own self-contained "copy" of the game in a functional state. I didn't care that I was the only user, connecting to my own SQL server. What mattered was that I had complete control over it and could decide for myself whether it ran or didn't.
Going further, open source is the only viable future.
@@bamboozled_again Every game that has ever existed should be emulable.
As @SuperGamerFan77 pointed out Thor doesnt understand the difference between an EU petition or a proposed law. Through his very US eyes he interpreted it very literally and missed the forest for the trees. If the petition passes It'll be considered by the EU parliament and It'll go through several revisions and industry experts can weigh in on it.
Actually, City of Heroes homecoming private servers were officially licensed by its parent company in 2023 I think. So you can legally play this game.
I was hoping he mentioned this as well! But particularly with his thumbnail.
I was supporting homecoming before 2023, and love it even more now.
I'm actually playing CoH:Homecoming as I watch this video.
Same thing for the Warhammer: Return to Reckoning private server. It was officially endorsed by the old Relic Studios devs.
Everquest also have a private server running legally on the second expansion since 2008/09 called Project1999 and that never prevented Daybreak from doing their yearly PTE(play through expansions) servers and still making bank with it.
Janurary this year actually (2024) They can keep the servers up and running, and develop on it aslong as they don't make a "Profit" they can get enough to fund the servers/keep legal council, but not earn beyond that. (Atleast from what I understand.)
As likable as Thor/Pirate Software is, he gives off that insufferable coworker who if you asked “can i go to the bathroom?” He’d respond with “idk, CAN YOU?” Lol. He’s very arrogant and most of his “career advice” would get the average person canned ASAP. He’s very condescending, arrogant, and definitely mentions that blizzardAzon hacker background way too much. Thanks for saying what some in the community needed to hear.
He used to run a group on Second Life, his name was "Maldavius Figtree" and man, the drama and behavior he had back then. And I said that once and someone said "its not him": he runs the "PirateSoftware" group on SL too.
He is arrogant, and he has a really nasty attitude behind the scenes unfortunately.
And to quote an FAQ about PirateSoftware: "...they are currently a creative director of Offbrand - a company whose only product is a live service game. His employment is dependent on the very idea live services who can be killed at any point are and should continue to be legal. This and his previous employment at Blizzard constitute a conflict of interest when discussing this topic. "
@@emijade He is also a furry though he tries to hide that, his furry name was also Maldavius Figtree.
His mask has been slipping more and more lately and people are wising up to his arrogant egotistical behavior.
Oh thought you were talking about this bald fella who uploads the vid
hey, really surprised you didn't at least credit Accursed Farms for starting the Stop Killing Games movement. It's something that could have far reaching consequence - even to the Right to Repair movement stuff out there - and in an era of ever-decreasing consumer protections, getting the conversation started so that government can catch up to technology is incredibly important.
We all know what it is.
We need another EU regulation
All what pirate software said is that criminals exist . With his same idea in mind we should not have free water fountains because someone could bottle it and sell it .
Why have laws at all if criminals exist? Pirate software is definitely big brain
I support Ross Scott/Accursed Farms for all the hard work he is doing to try to stop the ending of games that need online connection to function, and that we've paid money for. He has a great channel, and I really hope his EU petition makes an impact in changing these anti consumer practices. Thanks for bringing more attention to the subject.
I stand with Ross too
it ultimately comes down to "how do we make corporations do the right thing when it won't make shareholders money" and if we can figure that out, we might be able to prevent the earth from becoming a smoldering ash heap by 2034. oh yeah and game preservation too i guess
But it does make shareholders money. By renting out the IP/servers the company can profit from a dead project.
We already know the solution. It's called making new laws/regulations to force them to the right thing.
we make the 'right thing' more profitable than the 'wrong thing'
@homiga1 yes but that doesn't solve the problem of the MMO dying if the company goes under.
So far in my MMO journey, I haven't found a single dead MMO that can't be played on a private server...The only issue is as games get more fancy, I can see this becoming a harder thing to pull off... 😥
yeah the OGs are way easier to emulate, and even still come with a few layers of jank
@@IdylOnTV I have yet to find a working private server of say, Auto Assault or Tabulsa Rasa, two NCSoft published games that got killed years back.
"If you're watching this video, you're probably pretty stupid." What gave it away, was it the anime avatar?
…yes
Always is.
Me smart.
yes
You and me both dude
Just to be clear. The "Stop Killing Games" petition is just an outline and HAS to be JUST an outline. Accursed Farms makes it extremely clear why that is the case in the FAQ.
also PirateSoftware wasn't a traditional "dev" at Amazon and Blizzard. He worked security and QA, he didn't "develop" anything.
A QA job that he got because his father who worked in Blizzard's like cinema/art team got him that job. So he's a nepo baby that parades around as an "ex Blizzard dev" who has never gotten into game dev at Blizzard talking about game development and calls himself a representative of game devs in general. It's actually impressive.
Yeah! We hate that guy because of reasons! He took our job!
As an actual MMO game dev with two decades experience, I believe PirateSoftware's opinion is as relevant as of any other gamer. As in, 1 in a billion. I mean, I don't even think mine is that much more relevant than of the average player, why should it be? Maybe I can give more informed opinions when it comes to the implementation and office politics, but that's it.
Same applies to Idyl, and every other person with a platform. No disrespect for any youtubers, I watch this channel because I like it, but don't assume someone knows what they're talking about just because they are famous.
@@madmantheepic7278Ah yes, he was wrong about a take so therefore it discredits everything and he is poser game dev. I have not always agreed with him, but people are multifaceted dude. Hating someone because you disagree with him is extreme. And guess what? Most jobs in the creative arts are done through networking and connections. Doesn't discredit your work on those projects.
At first I was a little afraid you'd be taking Thor's side, but I'm glad you ended up disagreeing with him. Also huge props for getting the word out there about the petition, we're almost half way and we're not even near the 1 year mark, we need every signature we can get.
I got my torch and pitchfork at the ready for this guy to say something stupid but he surprised me. But now I’ve wasted my torch :(
Thor's take was so freaking weird that it tanked his momentum.
Guy was on a meteoric rise... now he's just another internet goblin. >__>
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For the conclusion, yeah Ross Scott summarizes the project as "ok but what's the alternative to private servers? no game at all?"
I feel like the 'you can't experience it like you did originally' is just missing the point of preservation. It is like Elvis being a huge phenomena at the time but if you listen to his stuff compared to modern music and compare him to modern celebrities it is like... Nothing special? I'll never go to an Elvis concert when his stuff was risqué and new. Does that mean the music and history isn't worth preserving?
While the laws of it needs to be carefully thought out to prevent shenanigans. I think preserving history and people's access to these video games is way more important than a company's wallet, especially when it comes to abandon products.
I see your point here, and I agree that preserving culture (and, more precisely, the influences of contemporary culture) is important, even if it does not have the same luster to the modern observer.
An MMO, unfortunately, is not a piece of traditional art. It's a delicately designed system of mechanics which functions optimally (or even, minimally) when engaged by thousands of concurrent players. Economies, party wait times, clan communities, mentorship all fall apart when the player base shrinks too small. Consider then that the experience of a "preserved" MMO may end up feeling more akin to the plasticky Elvis impersonators on Vegas strip than some sort of historical archival of what the quintessential MMO experience we all loved was actually like.
The experience of a burgeoning MMO, like the Elvis concert we'll never be able to attend, will only ever be available to the players who were there.
@@saint.venant I'd compare it to me putting on an MP3 of an elvis song vs the shows back then. (I was about to type CD but my brain went 'shit those are too old'.)
Ultimately I'd still rather have access then none at all. It not being a traditional piece of art means little to me. Since this kind of goes beyond MMOs into live service games too (and DRM as was lightly mentioned in the video). The day WoW get shut down I'd consider it better than someone can boot up a private server and fuck around in an empty world (or with a small group of friends) rather than none at all. The day genshin impact stops getting supported I'd rather the people who play it have the choice to pop on some version of it.
Still we've also seen with private server communities that they can get healthy populations too! Even if smaller they're warm and welcoming and that is also worth preserving the ability to have. So wonderful experiences can still come from them regardless.
Him saying that private servers invite the destruction of the game is a flawed argument to begin with. Like you said it will happen anyway and there are far more common reasons to bring down an active game, mostly by other companies.
Funny part is Thor is like "this will kill live service games"
Well goddamn you didnt have to convince me any more
Literally a good thing. That’s like saying “this will cure cancer” well goddamn give me a sip of that
mmo's are live service games tho
@@lv100Alice the initiative doesn't affect any games already released. It would only affect future games. We don't need any more live service games squeezing money out of the players.
@@lv100Alice by choice, a choice the dev chose
@@lv100Alice The SKG initiative mainly focuses on games that are offered as one-time purchases (aka 'goods', and yes, in certain countries like EU and Australia even digital games can be considered goods), and after some undisclosed period of time become obsolete because devs didn't implement other ways to make it playable (i.e. dedicated servers or P2P).
"This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied" - from the initiative.
And while Ross Scott, the leader of SKG movement, says it would be nice to have MMOs preserved, he acknowledges that this is probably not gonna happen, at least for some of them. Because certain games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 are accessible after paying for subscriptions. You don't pay your monthly fee, you don't get to play. Fair 'n' square. Textbook definition of a 'service'.
Counter argument to the last point Thor made: yes they are a product of the time they were released in. So is any piece of art. Thats why when you go to an art gallery there's information boards telling you the context and the history. You wouldn't choose not to preserve historical artifacts because they were "a product of their time" would you? No it's not going to be the same as playing the game at it's peak but that's not even the point of preserving it.
City of Heroes Homecoming has shown me the light, really cannot sing its praise enough, and I never loaded up City of Heroes before the private server.
Shoutout to all the Runescape preservation servers throughout the eras. OpenRSC (as shown in the video), but also 2004scape, 2009scape and Darkan (2012) - All run by great people who take 0 donations and just want to let people login to those times again
2009scape is great, definitely the most aesthetic time period for RuneScape
I run a copy locally and it's hella fun playing RuneScape as essentially a single player RPG
Shout out to that one guy from 2016 who played a multiplier player game on the ps2 with me.
"Cause it means something today even if it doesn't mean the same thing that it did back then"
and I felt that.
BABE, WAKE UP, THE BEAUTIFUL BALD MAN DROPPED A NEW VIDEO
IMO if any company no longer supports X, then it goes to public domain. That allows individuals to pursue things that are frankly not cost effective for corporations.
The thing is the way copyrights work throws a huge spanner into this which is why in some cases it is illegal. So really it is the copyright laws that need to be addressed. Which is a huge can of worms that corporations aren't willing to play fair with which is why hardly anything ever goes to public domain anymore.
It's not as simple as "it goes to public domain." The _idea_ (and many other commenters have pointed out that it's just an idea, purposefully lacking detail) is this: if any company no longer supports X (live service game), then they must publish the necessary tools so that an enthuastic community can suppport that game. Not without cost, but without having to develop tools themselves from the outside looking in.
And that's a very important difference.
NGL I missed the patreon song at the end.
Me too. I dance along to it.
You know any video that starts with " The Matrix online" will be an absolute banger.
About TF2 private servers: I played the original Team Fortress mod for Quake a lot back in the day, and so I've been around. Private servers used to be the standard. We always had good control over our communities because of it. They got rid of because it allowed companies to control their product more. Younger people just don't know how much was lost when we went to official servers. Sure, the playerpool is larger, but it's also just random people. With private servers you get to know people.
Yea it seems like people who defend companies have never played a game with community servers.
Something you forget to mention is that, "the crew" was the game which started all of this. Even if you could run a private the crew server, you would still be committing a crime, because you're using unlicensed car brands in your game.
P.s. Sorry for the bad English.
I can't believe the disrespect about not discussing City of Heroes in a video about private servers taking over after official servers go offline... You could have made an entire video about the topic talking ONLY about City of Heroes...
Thank you for articulating my own thoughts! Other MMO content creators also seem to skip over coh, and I don't get it. I feel like the story of its official approval was pretty widely shared.
No one cares about that literal garbage
Hey, cool of you to give some exposure to Stop Killing Games, and thanks for your thoughts on the matter! The initative isn't centered around MMOs, but it definitely has the potential to affect them.
Ahh yes, PirateSoftware, the fraud nepobaby who entirely misunderstood the SKG petition, and wouldn't have a conversation with the creator and blocked him instead of having a discussion about it. lmao
sounds like an industry puppet fr
I am all for preserving games. While games are transitory experiences, being able to experience something in a certain state is what the medium is about.
World of Warcraft and GTA are games that will never die.
Why?
So that's why.
In Sony's defense with SWG, they probably have weird licensing stuff to deal with on that one. Might be a little more difficult than just saying "it's ok to make private server"
I would like to mention that many minecraft private servers have terrible monetization practices. but that doesn't prevent some really good servers to exist. yes its lame that there are predatory servers out there, but generally the successful servers do the right thing.. and people move back and fourth between servers all the time. they have their own playerbases that critique the bad owners. there are groups that find pay-to-win servers and they bot/hack to try and serve justice. I would take all that in favor of my game being inaccessible forever. especially when it would take little effort from the devs of the original.
I swear I am not frightened by the floating torso person
It will not haunt me to the end of my days bro i promise
I think something u forgot to mention regarding TF2 is that valve, actually did fix the botting situation in the game. granted it took them 4 years. But they have banned the bots, and actually implemented reporting features on steam specifically for tf2. They also went after github repositories that hosted the code for the bots.
Wildstar mention spotted.
the hoodie tucked into the green pants should be a crime
Shout out to Daybreak games for letting Everquest Project 1999 and Project Quarm exist.
Private servers are awesome.
I should've mentioned that NCSoft, the publishers behind City of Heroes actually LICENSED one of the biggest private servers, making it officially legal to run. a very based move from a usually non based company
Breaking out paint when referring to Pirate Software is some good shit.
Great video overall. I just think Idyl missed one of the best examples he could give for his argument: the case with Project 1999 Everquest and Daybreak.
I'm actually pissed that you changed the outro song, it was an absolute banger.
I'm just commenting for the algorithm. Keep it up dude love the content
1:58 straight up dead pan calls his viewers stupid. no fear. i love this man.
im still sooking to this day i cant play wildstar anymore
Excellent job Idyl, you really did a great job with this video!
really great video. I like your idea of private servers getting support after a publisher shuts down a game!
The tucked hoodie has returned!!!!! 💯🔥🔥
Bro when you put your head over Mod Sarnie's body from the summer summit, I started cracking up
I liked the video, recently (for like a good month or two) the tf2 bot problem has actually been extremely, gone. Bots are actually so hard to run into in the main servers.
I think this is a fantastic idea. LOTRO is super old, and I only just now discovered it and am having more fun with it than I've had playing games in months. I'd never be able to experience it if it had died, and it was kept going by a dedicated fan base who would do whatever they could to preserve it.
Thor reminds me of my roommate who if you give him too much attention he starts to believe he is the most liked and infallible human to exist.
Old (mmo-victim) man here. Your sense of humor is great. You have impeccable comedic timing. Keep up the fun content.
Thanks boo bear. Awesome video! I think you have a really interesting perspective. Especially considering how many games are being released that are online only.
The biggest correction I have on the reply to Pirate Software:
Subscription based games are not included in Ross's movement since you have an idea as a consumer how long your purchase (usually per month) will last.
It also does not require them to release the server executable. "Reasonably playable state" includes basically dumping all the assets to the internet and telling people "good luck downloading 400TB of data."
[Edit] this also includes removing multiplayer from some games. Like dumping CoD multiplayer and leaving you with campaign and single player/split screen only.
Minor corrections but useful clarifications nonetheless.
Everquest and Project1999 has got to be one of the most interesting official company and private server situation out there for a game that is still active and the publisher still releases their own classic servers.
Something I've thought about on this topic is how the end of a game would be defined. If a game completely overhauls every system in place and the engine so that it's entirely unrecognizable from what it originally was, would the company then be forced to release the IP of the old version of their game?
To me, the answer to this question has large implications on how things would play out with future live service games.
I mostly play MMOs in a rather solo capacity, and have played AND VERY MUCH MISS a lot of games which were somewhat unpopular or never really 'took off' and were canned, but are capable of solo play independently of their MMO intent. While some games are being rebuilt by volunteers (Glitch in particular, the browser MMO, released all assets so people could rebuild and continue the project on their own) it takes a TON of effort to get functional, and if those games were not popular in the first place, that's near impossible to do. Having the games playable solo or offline would mean the world to me, it's enough that I'd miss the interactions I'd had with others, but that's much better than missing the game altogether. Requiescat in Pace to: Free Realms, Sky Saga, and yes Glitch, all of which I think about very often and will never be able to revisit.
the pokemon collo music is jus so perfect w these
hawk 1: any ideas for a viral joke?
hawk 2: uhhh
😂
stop because i'm literally writing my thesis about this topic. i've been a fan of yours for years but i never thought about how i could actually end up citing you as a source!
Yay new video !! Thanksssss !!!!!! Love em all !!!
When you're talking about private servers for MMOs, I'm reminded of Neverwinter Nights. There are plenty of user-made modules hosted on servers (persisted worlds or PWs) akin to fan-made MMORPGs. They're legal since they used the official tools for their intended purpose.
Yea integrated server tools are great.
I miss old school games with subscriptions, no cash shops and no time gating. My favourites were rising force online and guild wars 1, and giving people an official/endorsed way to and preserve old games is important imo
This idea is really fresh and really scary: *glares at Minecraft Realms*
One of my fav yt vids in a while
i now wander if wildstar has a private server i miss some old games that are now gone i wish the law passes and we can keep playing old games legally and maybe companies will give their source openly when they give up support of the game
Wearing green-screen pants to look like your legs are behind a desk is peak video design
Love the presentations. Keep it up.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Well we're closer than ever irl
I could see paid private servers being the future of MMO's. It solves two big issues: The constant desire for 'fresh' servers, and the desire to not be on a crowded server where you're constantly competing. Another possible future would be MMO's all being single player by design but just allowing for seamless conntection to a multiplayer version
There were no issues to begin with. And paid servers means the company is supporting the game still which this isn’t what this is all about. This is for when supports end.
On the point of the OSRS community servers, I don't remember if EA has done them for Battlefield 2042; but they were a popular thing in the old Battlefield games in the 2010s (3, 4, and hardline for sure I remember seeing a lot of).
Love that drawing in paint reference 😂
Take a drink every time Thor says "I was a hacker at Blizzard".
Great video. This entire problem exists because of overreaching copyright laws. The solution isn't to force companies to do anything but rather to allow the use of an IP that isn't being actively used. Just like you can't squat on a inactive domain name or enforce a trademark that's not actively being used.
If I was game dev that would have never happen, I would create the perfect game wiht no flaws because I am gamer and I know what gamers want unlike those game developers
"Realistically, the code is still out there"
If only he knew of all those games where the source code was completely lost after support has ended, especially old games. If i'm not mistaken, the original source for Starcraft 1, was literally considered lost media until someone found a cd with said code on a dump or something.
Yes when they aren't profitable, BUT people should be able to launch their own private servers and maintain the game after. ideally the comapny gives access to the server's source code, or at least parts that are capable of being released publically. If not, so long as it is allowed to be ran (bonus if it has the companies's blessing) is all that matters. Heck, if for some reason it is brought back at a later time I'm even okay if a private server has to shut down for the sake of an official server being brought on. So long as there is some possibility for people to be able to play the game is the important thing.
The MS paint scrawling like Pirate Software made me lol
A lot of CD Key games don't work anymore either.
They require a connection for the innitial authentification, and those servers have been taken down.
TF2 community servers have always been the backbone of the game, some of my favorite gaming memories are just me and like 18 other homies chillin on 2fort shootin the shit and never capping the intel for hours on end.
Valve has always had 1) offline modes for most games, 2) community server support. far from a perfect company, but a good example of what other companies could do to support their games
@@IdylOnTV I agree, also would love to see you try and take a crack at savage/ultimate raiding in FF14 and report back on it, as its mostly seen as the casual/story driven mmo.
while the crew 2 and the crew motorfest arent traditional mmos
ubisoft announced that they give those games an offline mode in the future
but i doubt giving an offline mode would work on most things
This channel is great when I just want to turn off my mind and not think for 20 minutes
Hey Idly, thanks for telling my friends I'm not as stupid as I seem. It's things like that that would have me democratically vote for you if there had been a poll for MMO prez.
WoW Classic was very different from Vanilla because of changes in the player base. To the point that I liked it a lot less. But I still enjoyed revisiting old WoW even through the flawed lens that is Vanilla. We also learnt a lot about MMOs and confirmed a bunch of things we thought we knew about MMOs (no, turns out it wasn't all just rose tinted goggles). There's value in preserving what we can, even if it's not perfect.
I'd just like to add, that releasing server files for a dead game would be great. The ones which got shut down because they were not profitable enough to run them with a big team.
I'd love to play GhostX ultimate just once more.
I'd love to be king of the hill just once more in S4League.
But until the original company runs the game, I think they should be able to profit from it and decide what to do with the server files.
The whole Project Zanarak(?) thing isn't really private... Jagex would technically still control the server/IP, they're just giving players access to all of the Dev options.
I think there needs to be better lingo to use for these types of things.
I'm still stuck on the concept that killing a game would make people play on your private servers.
If you killed the game and everyone hated it, then why would they keep playing on a server with even less resources?
Yeah, the logic doesn’t make any sense, this issue has never happened with old or current games either which is only further proof that this is a made up scenario.
The private servers are legal, the illegal part is the client and any modification done to it to connect to said servers. But yes, the server is technically legal, since it's replicating existing behavior, and not stolen from the original software
Nothing exists in this world that can't have holes poked through it. The bottom line for me is licensed/legal private servers should be a right for consumers with few limitations. What should be the actual focus of conversation is the money private servers can make, THAT is a reasonable conversation.
I don't think private servers should be limited to just dead games because if a game goes the way of Runescape with the EOC change, where a game is so drastically changed it is effectively dead, I think it should be legal for private servers to exist. But obviously private servers shouldn't be profiting off of someone else's IP. There should either be licensing fees or profit splitting, or something to that effect. Countless times communities prove that they are willing to keep or create projects when there is no or little money involved.
I love your content, please keep going.
Im autistic and your volume levels are just right.
Your video's bring me joy :)
Valve actually has gotten the bots under control. They did it a bit before the summer update and it's been pretty decent since then. Massive ban waves with cheaters and bot hosters crying on social media. It was glorious. We just hope it lasts.
Great vid, but where is the Patreon song???
Team Fortress 2 actually STARTED as Private Servers. It's from that era of FPS where the multiplayer was all servers hosted and managed by individuals or clans.
And actually, I honestly preferred it. Yes, the pool of players was smaller and so skill disparity could be much larger. But you got to know the people on the servers you played on, you built rapport, and the game felt more like playing with friends. Also, people didn't act like jerks on servers where that wasn't allowed because a MOD was likely to be on and would ban them from the server.
For games that have a single player or non-MMO multiplayer (Diablo 3 is a good example, but I also think of Starcraft 2) it is a no-brainer that the Publishers/devs should be compelled to make the games playable after the official servers shut down. Overwatch 1 should still be playable in local multiplayer or private servers. WC3 not Reforged should still be playable without having to try to find a CD.
I like Pirate Software. But I think he is objectively wrong on this subject.
Tf2 private servers were the best I knew like 90% of people on there and we'de shoot the shit while playing for hours on end it was truely a sense of community there was even a guy who'd always ALWAYS talk like a announcer, and when he'd join everyone would mimic him and we'de continue about our conversations all in our announcer voices like it was normal till he disconnected.
Thor's arguement against releasing server binaries being that it will encourage corporate sabotage is creative at least. I think his experience with working in security for these games has greatly inflated his view of how likely and damaging such a movement could be.
You could talk about Toontown Rewritten too. Community revived server that’s still going
UO Outlands takes a 1997 game and made it still teeming with life. It's pixelated and top down, but it is the best MMORPG I have played ever. I highly recommend it.
Never heard of that game but I’ll check it out
I haven't seen you trying Tibia. It's a German 2D MMORPG game launched in 97. Take a look and let us know what you think ;)
Honestly i feel that Toon-Town handled the shut down in one of the best ways iv seen, Releasing a version true to the original (just removing anything that Disney would shut them down over) and applying patches and some small updates to add features that would have came out or based on the games original ideas. Keeping the game in a playable state. They even had some successful spin off games as well that rebalanced some things and added new areas.
I’ve never heard of toon town, but if that’s what they did, that’s great