Special thanks to everyone that was featured in this video: Zerofidelity: ua-cam.com/channels/HGNxiMlh69Q4M9w7ZV7FPw.html Steve: ua-cam.com/channels/9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg.html New record day: ua-cam.com/users/NewRecordDay Thomas&Stereo: ua-cam.com/channels/MVtSHXafOEcFN10FYygDTA.html
FLOORSTANDER+SUB mucho greater than BS+SUB ANYDAY. The possibility for a future FLOORSTANDER+SUBWOOFER exists if a guy went with the "floorstander" answer. He can save some cash and add a sub later on (aka not be stuck with a BS)
It's awesome that these UA-cam audiophile reviewers support each other and don't see each other as rivals. They all have their own styles, complement each other, and benefit the audiophile community. Thanks to all of you for helping a starting audiophile along in his journey!
There is a third option. The best of both worlds. Floor standers plus subs! I’ve just invested in a pair of Kef Reference 5 speakers. They are pretty much full range, go surprisingly low and are pretty linear. They make excellent stand alone speakers. But, I’ve added a pair of Rel T9I subs. They are adjusted to very minimal settings. But, they do re-enforce the low end where the Kefs start to roll off. They do add atmosphere. Let you feel the environment in which the recording was made. They do enhance the soundstage and smooth out bass distribution through out the listening environment. Whilst the Kefs are very good at maintaining tonality at low volume, which is one of the reasons I chose them, the Rels do just augment that low frequency at low volume to make low volume listening more pleasurable when it is inappropriate to raise the volume!
@@peerguy I wish!!! I’m a family man on a NHS salary. It has taken me years to build up my current system. My children have now all fled the nest, so it is true to say, that these days I’ve a little more disposable income. I don’t have a car, so that is one major financial strain eliminated. The wife and I don’t take regular expensive annual foreign holidays. I have no other costly hobbies, like golf, fishing, gambling Etc. I do enjoy a drink, but at home whilst enjoying listening to music. Yes, I have invested more than many in my hifi. I’ve probably spent as much ast many families spend on the family car. Many of my components are 30 years old. How many family cars last that long. It is true to say, that you could build a rig a lot less costly than mine, who’s sonic performance is not far behind mine. It is also true to say that I’ve reached the pinnacle point of the law of diminishing returns. To implement small sonic improvements I would need to dig deep, but the divorce would be even more costly! It is all a question of prioritisation. Don’t expect to be able to build a premium system overnight, Rome wasn’t built in a day. As you build up your sysem, choose components wisely keeping in mind longevity. You don’t need deep pockets to enjoy the music, and enjoying the music is our am. Don’t be scared of exploring the second hand or used market. Audiophiles are constantly upgrading equipment. There is plenty of componentry well cared for and in presteme condition waiting to be snapped up at bargain prices. Most of all, enjoy the music!
What I did is what I think Steve recommended I bought floor standing speaks and added a subwoofer. I set the sub to cover only the bottom octave, it also freed up the main speakers for position for the best image.
I have not hear a setup that does not need subs. Yes 2 sub woofers. Regardless if it is a bookshelf or floor standing design. If I could only have subs with bookshelves them that would be my choice. The low end makes the music real for me. If you are at a live performance the bass is even heard outside the arena. Good video. Nice getting many reviewers input.
I like the versatility of bookshelf+subs, especially as a renter that moves every few years. Also I think there's subs...and then there are RELs with their easy integration
@@stevenswall To each his own I guess. Sure I wouldn't use RELs for home theater, but for music, there's very few than can compete in terms of speed in the same price range
@Pong Yang Sean actually answered this on a live feed and said integrated amp unless you're spending like 10,000 on each component. He said on lesser priced units integrated has a purer signal path and the sound is more synergized . I was surprised because I assumed he would answer seperates lol
Only one of those setups is likely to get full-range sound and it aint the floorstanders. Very few floorstanders go down to 20Hz. I can excuse a -3dB point of 30Hz but anything higher and I don't think it even approximates anything you could call full-range. I'm more in line with Steve and NewRecordDay on this. The flexibility of bookshelves and subs is one clear reason to get that combo. Decoupling the bass from the mids and highs is key- especially in a small room.
There is another advantage to bookshelf plus sub. a bookshelf and sub speakers weight less separately than a floorstander so it is easier to move them alone if needed. With floorstander it requires two people to move the speaker. Another question is if sharing same cabinet for a bass, midwoofer and tweeter in a floorstander negatively affects sound quality.
I use bookshelf with subwoofer in a small room where there is no room for a floor stander. My office and my laundry room are great examples of the issue.
I personally couldn't afford a good setup at once so I've added amp, then speaker now I'm getting ready to add a sub. It's hard to decide when your budget is limited, but I guess it's the same thing even if you had a chunk of money to spend. I just don't know enough about these so I really appreciate this kind of review. 감사합니다.
Love your presentation in this video. Zero fidelity’s explanation made a lot of sense. Depends on the room size. Smaller / medium room = bookshelf + Sub Larger room = towers But.. For a home theater, most people cross over the towers and use the subs anyway, so go figure
A lot of great feedback, but I think new record day had a very astute comment on price being a critical qualifier to effectively answer this question given low pricepoint floorstanders will likely be outperformed overall by a sub sat combo. Price no object would likely be a different story.
Price no object would be studio monitors and a woofer with controlled dispersion and perfect integration. EX: Genelec W371 used as a stand with Genelec 8351B monitors.
The AudioNec Duopole DS driver is a variation on the Linaeum TLS (true line source) driver. I have some Linaeum LT1000 speakers from around 1990 that have the 6" high version of that driver. I am using a miniDSP 2x4 HD active crossover and EQ to get a nice smooth output - and the results are fantastic - the best I have ever heard.
Would you pick a pair of R5s over LS50 Meta + a good sub? The right match for the LS50 in floorstander is the LS60 at 5 times the price. The R series cannot match the LS50. When you sell them, how much shipping will the customer pay for 80kg, compared to 15/20kg? And can you even find a shipping company that will do a 1-off delivery of that size for an individual? Can a normal person change the postioning of a 45kg tower without help or ruining their floor?
Personally, I prefer Floor Standers over Bookshelves plus Sub. The integration of sub with bookshelves I find to be a pain. Since bookshelves require stands even in a small room, I still go with Floor Standers. As Steve alluded to, I am one of those audiophiles where most Towers do not have enough extension and slam for me to live with. So, I will put in a sub along with a compact Tower. My experience has been, that a small Tower’s roll off tends not be as steep. Thus, integrating a sub with them has been easier.
Capable bookshelves and multiple subwoofers with an active crossover configuration. That will beat ANY floor standing speaker. It's just physics, how sound sources interact with the room. Woofers basically never sound good where the mid/top need to be placed for proper imaging.
Yes. have just what you mention and have had very initiated friends at home and they compare my setup with floorstanders at 8k usd. my sub and standmounts are for 2,5 k usd.
Liked the video. My answer? It depends. I play the piano and organ. Organs not uncommonly produce music to 16 Hz. Once you've experienced that bottom octave, you don't want to give it up. Even with ensembles that only go to 32 Hz (C1), one octave lower gives a sense of ambience and gravitas. Still laughing at Sean dropping the ballerina with Wave Radio. He may require counseling. ;) For pop music, I see no need to go below 32 Hz. And the reviewer who said "two subs," I agree with. Being able to separate best placements for the subs from the best placements of the floor/bookshelves not only gives sonic superiority, but also keeps wives from banishing you to the basement.
Nice vlog! So I don't have any experience with subs but what would an incorrectly optimized sub sound like? Would bass notes come in late because of time alignment?
Enjoyed this a lot, I went with bookies and two subs. One reason is to free up my avr. Even though it is a pretty hefty yamaha 2080 it is powering 9 speakers when watching movies. Plus I can go to pure direct or stereo with subs for music listening.
I think it all depends on how much you spend on a bookshelf. If you buy a companies $600 bookshelf for example then I believe it will be better than their $600 floor standers in most cases and definitely better than a budget tower, imo.
The fellow with the green shirt @ 3:00 explained it very well. Was kind of on the fence with this since some ppl may have a favorite bookshelf speaker that they would like to keep the sonic character of but just need more low end and a sub could do the job. But yeah, settled for me now, floorstander seems best way to go. But bookshelves for desktop usage in 5.1 channel PC system, the sub is only choice.
For personal reasons and design strategy, I use bookshelf speakers with a Rel-S3 sub using the neutrik cable, which uses the left and right signal of the bookshelfs.
I still grapple with this one. I love floorstanders, always have. But never actually tried standmount. I’m stuck in the assumption that two channel small floor-standers is still best based on our small living room. And they sound GREAT. But can’t help wondering if adding the right and well-placed sub would extend, and add body to those lower hertz without destroying the overall balance. Size of room should be the primary concern, I guess.
Zero fidelity gave a Zero reply! Of course how can he be honest about his “ real “ opinion being a reviewer ! It’s understandable. But I applaud Ron from New Record day for his honesty and sincerity! A Very helpful reply. He’s has been a good guide in truthful assessment in Hi Fi. Thanks for this vlog, because it shows where the preference definitely is. Floor standers rule for those that don’t want to fuss around too much and surely a good way to go generally. Much appreciated I’m sure you are going to be a huge success !
The honest truth is that there are significant advantages and dis-advantages that correspond with each choice. Floorstanders have plenty of issues. They tend to be less rigid, more complex, are more expensive, load rooms in more of an uncontrollable way, and tend to fall right in line with Floyd Toole and Sean Olives research that points to most people being drawn to whatever doles out "mo bass". As for my own take and honesty: I don't care because it all sounds fake as hell to me. No matter what the product is or how well its set up. This is why I'm indifferent to the subject. If bookies are your thing, cool. If towers are your thing, that's cool too. Most of us make choices based off of our living space, budget, aesthetic taste, and listening bias. My decision has no preference as it will ultimately boil down to what I like, which will have no bearing on whether its a tower or a bookie.
Zero Fidelity Thanks A lot for your reply. I appreciate it ! You made some interesting points. It may all be fake compared to a live performance ( not amplified ). Then again I guess hardly any musician would ever be able to make a significant living without the power of amplification. I once listened to a demo in Switzerland of the Boenike SW13. I was so blown away that I was in tears. It was simply astounding. The emotion I felt was real even if it was fake compared with the a live performance. Movies are also fake. Real life is never like the movies and yet at times we can feel moved emotionally. indifference ? I assume you love what you do even if it’s creating an illusion of the real thing ? I guess the object of the exercise is to asses what works most effectively and the reason for our preference. With gratitude.
@@petergordon931 Cheers. Those Boenicke's are great. I think there's a commonground in our objective. When it comes to stereo exotica, realism is nice, but an emotional connection is the end-game.
This is a long reply and hopefully it can shed some light for some of you: Tough call for sure. For years I was all in on floor standers over bookies. But a couple of things happened at about the same time. I got a pair of Revel M20 bookies and a pair of SVS ULTRA Subs... Coming off a pair of B&W towers that replaced my NHT's that I loved. Wow! So I thought, hell why not get Revel floor standers right? I did, but found that I was crossing over the dual 8" woofers in each at about 50hz. Could the floor standers provide more scale and play louder? yeah, but at not at volumes I'd want to listen to long term... And I'm talking uncomfortable db's. Then on to large Martin Logan electrostats...humm I really enjoyed those but they dominated my room (15' x 18) and as you know they need to be pulled out into the room. Gave that up. So, I was in a Magnolia room and saw Rel Subs stacked on each other and was taken back. Did an audition and some research and boom that is what I decided. Got another pair of SVS Subs, stacked them, tuned them to a pair of Sonus Faber bookies and bruuuaaah... Couldn't be happier !
The higher up in price I go, the more I gravitate towards floorstanders. Say under a $5000 budget, a good $3000 bookshelf with x2 $1000 subs is nice. Above $5000 you can get floorstanders that have "enough" bass with great imaging and driver integration. You can always add subs to floorstanders too down the line.
I have floor standers with a sub. Magico S1MKII (two way floorstander) and a JL Fathom F110v2. For me this is a good option as the bass is good with the speakers but being only a 2 way I feel like the drivers integrate better.
Great video! The significant other wont let me add 2 subs to the living room, so the KEF LS50w's are getting sold and I'm getting floorstanders! As someone mentioned in the video they really don't take up more space than bookies + stands. Okay maybe footprint is a bit bigger but it's not like you're using the space right around your speaker anyways.
Floorstanders and a subwoofer (or 2) for me. There is a reason why bass acoustic instruments are huge. You do need a big/powerful dedicated driver for the 20-60Hz to have the same feel as the real thing.
I have a smaller space to work with. My listening space is a 9x9 square portion of the living room so it presents challenges. I have one space where I can really put the speakers which is max 2 feet from the back wall. The speaker options I'm currently weighing are the tekton lore reference and the wharfdale evo 4.2. Currently I'm leaning more toward the wharfdales.
I have three subs with bookshelf speakers, one sub beneath each of the bookshelf speakers, one between them, and a DSP that makes them all work together. Does that count?
This was funny. Vilip is the man of the day: he can throw at you his PhD in hifi while casually sipping his morning coffee 🤣🤣🤣 Still Sean is second to none. 😜
For absolute best sound in most rooms. First you need a DSP or a intigrated amp/receiver that can do high-pass filtering and phase adjusment. If you have or are willing to get those things, you can put wireless subs in the optimal locations,get them phase adjusted, and adjust the height of the bookshelf speakers so the Tweaters are even with your ears in the listening position. If you don't want to mess with that stuff or you're an analog purist who doesn't want the signal molested by DSP, just get floor-standers. If you get speakers big enough to extend down to sub-30hz subwoofer levels, placement options will be limited.
One thing I didn't hear mentioned was upgrade path. If I start with a good sub, and good stands and I want to try something different, buying, selling, and shipping bookshelves while keeping the subs/stands is a lot cheaper than buying, selling, and shipping floorstanders.
I will tell you next week as I have just purchased a pair of Osborn Eclipse reference floor stander speakers ( I encourage you to look them up). these will be joining a pair of the Klipsch RP600m and a pair of Rel T5i subwoofers. the plan is to compare and operate both.
@@swiftraider759 Well its been a week with the new Osborns and I was doing the A + B comparisons and to be honest its a bit night and day, The floor standers are absolutely a cut above the bookshelves & REL sub combination. The thing is the floor standers are not even run in yet. I will admit that the Osborns were more than 2 and a 1/2 times the price of the Klipsch & Rel combination, But its like I have moved into a whole new world. I have listened to 3 types of media on both now Streaming CD and Vinyl and all 3 are winners on the full range speaker.
@@darrens7040 thank you for following up. I got to tell you I'm leaning in that direction of a full range speaker as well. I have tinkered with single and dual RSL speedwoofer 10s and they are great for Home theater. For music they are also fine, but just could not dial them in to my taste for music. A lot of experienced folks have mentioned equalization, umik, further room correction, sub crawl, high pass filters, dirac and that is just way to much work just to get it right and even then may not be to my liking. I am thinking of getting a 3 way full range floor standers without separate subs. I just want 2.0 setup for music and still keep subs for movies. To me good bottom end on a floornstander seems a little more natural. To all their own, but this further just kind of reinforces my personal thoughts. Bookshelves may have better imaging in some cases but that's much more manageable correction with floor standers. Thanks again!
depends how good you are at dialling in a good sub, my 15ft x 12ft room is crap with floorstanders whereas my LS50's and REL sub is spot on in this space. if i had a massive room i would still probably go with the faster bookshelves and have 2 subs.
Or book shelves that have bass capability with amp that has tone controls. The key is obviously the tone controls. This is the one feature that seems to be missing from modern amps. Not sure why this is not discussed more. Could it be that sub woofer manufacturers are in kahootz with the amp manufacturers? Just saying.
I started with bookshelves. The when I have more money add subs. Then when have more money replace bookshelves with floorstanders. Best of both worlds.
I use floorstanders but for completely different reason(s) that I've heard so far---If you have a good amp (mine is Anthem P2) with some serious damping factor you can get a really tight base response from the floorstanders,with no integration issues,assuming the speakers have a good low end.
But the floor-standers will have inductors in series with with the bass units which will swamp the low output impedance of the amp, whereas the subs being active will have much higher damping factor.
Standmount vs Floorstander, they take up the same space, Stand mounts MAY have better imaging than floorstanders, floorstanders MAY have better scale, range and power handling.. Subs can be sited for best in room bass response and the standmounts can be sited for best imaging and soundstage.... Floorstanders have integration organised.. Personally I choose floorstanders and subs, accepting any integration difficulties for the benefit of power handling of the floorstander and the sheer slam and additional depth that the subs provide.
Jay, that Audionec loudspeaker looks like it has an oversized Lineaum driver. Believe it or not, back in the 90's Radio Shack had a couple of speakers that used the Lineaum tweeter.
The answer to this is not the same for everyone. Obviously some people don't have the room for floors slanders and the issues it creates with bass issues (room nodes) . Integration cN be obtained with a sub designerd solely for musical base such as a rel sub. And with some good bookshelf speakers it's hard to beat their imagining and disappearing act.
The only reason I would ever purchase "book-shelf" speakers would be for a desktop or to actually put on a shelf. If they are just going to go on a stand that is just silly vs floor speakers.
There is a speaker designer who once said, "big speakers have big problems." I find that's often true with floorstanders. Their large cabinets often produce large resonances that rob the system of imaging and transparency. This is especially common with cheap floorstanders under $3000/pair.
Harbeth monitor 30 plus subs, or harbeth 40 ..kef ls 50 pkus subs or kef floorstanders, ....it all depends on quality of each and of acoustic set up situation in listening room, several subs can manage room modes issues placing them on specific spots where midhighs are not happy....
Floorstanders for convenience. Bookshelves+Sub for sound quality. - Passive floor standers can very rarely compete with powered subs on quality or quantity of bass. - Bass quantity varies a lot among albums and subwoofer's volume control helps deal with that easily (esp if it has a remote control). - Placement issues wrt. bass with Floorstanders as noted by Steve Guttenberg is also key. Say you have Floorstander + Sub.... you still want to let the sub handle the bass instead of running the floor standers at full range as well (to avoid messy bass). So the bass capability on floorstanders doesn't matter in this situation. In larger rooms the Floorstanders+sub make some sense due to higher sensitivity and taller presentation of floorstanders.
What do you call HEDD Tower Mains system ( www.hedd.audio/en/tower-mains/ )? The TM80 component is basically a D'appolito configured, very tall, very heavy, actively amplified, bookshelf speaker system (it only does down to 80Hz and that's it). It needs it's companion subwoofer system, the TMS 36. You can make it a "Floorstanding" speaker system, you can make it a tall bookshelf speaker with a short speaker stand with a subwoofer (or two subwoofers), of you can make it a D'appolito Tower/Floorstanding speaker that has a really really really wide frequency response, and nearly limitless power to push absurd level sound into your listening room.
I could be happy with either but my wife doesn’t like the look of speakers on stands. I kinda of agree with her after she pointed that out. She will also buy the largest vegetables even though I tell her to get the smaller ones because they taste better...to no avail. It’s out of my hands.
Special thanks to everyone that was featured in this video:
Zerofidelity: ua-cam.com/channels/HGNxiMlh69Q4M9w7ZV7FPw.html
Steve: ua-cam.com/channels/9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg.html
New record day: ua-cam.com/users/NewRecordDay
Thomas&Stereo: ua-cam.com/channels/MVtSHXafOEcFN10FYygDTA.html
And Thujan... o.o
Here is Sean's (ZeroFidelity) answer:
ua-cam.com/video/9lP_AYPObos/v-deo.html
FLOORSTANDER+SUB mucho greater than BS+SUB ANYDAY. The possibility for a future FLOORSTANDER+SUBWOOFER exists if a guy went with the "floorstander" answer. He can save some cash and add a sub later on (aka not be stuck with a BS)
It's awesome that these UA-cam audiophile reviewers support each other and don't see each other as rivals. They all have their own styles, complement each other, and benefit the audiophile community. Thanks to all of you for helping a starting audiophile along in his journey!
Makes sense too right? I don't have to choose, I can watch and sub to all of them! Collegiate, not competitive.
Jay you’re the man! Love the Vlog.
Thanks for making more VLOGs. This video style is very entertaining
I think it's really cool that you did something different and called everyone up. Seriously really simple but cool idea
There is a third option. The best of both worlds. Floor standers plus subs! I’ve just invested in a pair of Kef Reference 5 speakers. They are pretty much full range, go surprisingly low and are pretty linear. They make excellent stand alone speakers. But, I’ve added a pair of Rel T9I subs. They are adjusted to very minimal settings. But, they do re-enforce the low end where the Kefs start to roll off. They do add atmosphere. Let you feel the environment in which the recording was made. They do enhance the soundstage and smooth out bass distribution through out the listening environment. Whilst the Kefs are very good at maintaining tonality at low volume, which is one of the reasons I chose them, the Rels do just augment that low frequency at low volume to make low volume listening more pleasurable when it is inappropriate to raise the volume!
Congrats! You’re rich 🤑
@@peerguy I wish!!! I’m a family man on a NHS salary. It has taken me years to build up my current system. My children have now all fled the nest, so it is true to say, that these days I’ve a little more disposable income. I don’t have a car, so that is one major financial strain eliminated. The wife and I don’t take regular expensive annual foreign holidays. I have no other costly hobbies, like golf, fishing, gambling Etc. I do enjoy a drink, but at home whilst enjoying listening to music.
Yes, I have invested more than many in my hifi. I’ve probably spent as much ast many families spend on the family car. Many of my components are 30 years old. How many family cars last that long. It is true to say, that you could build a rig a lot less costly than mine, who’s sonic performance is not far behind mine. It is also true to say that I’ve reached the pinnacle point of the law of diminishing returns. To implement small sonic improvements I would need to dig deep, but the divorce would be even more costly! It is all a question of prioritisation. Don’t expect to be able to build a premium system overnight, Rome wasn’t built in a day. As you build up your sysem, choose components wisely keeping in mind longevity. You don’t need deep pockets to enjoy the music, and enjoying the music is our am. Don’t be scared of exploring the second hand or used market. Audiophiles are constantly upgrading equipment. There is plenty of componentry well cared for and in presteme condition waiting to be snapped up at bargain prices.
Most of all, enjoy the music!
What I did is what I think Steve recommended I bought floor standing speaks and added a subwoofer. I set the sub to cover only the bottom octave, it also freed up the main speakers for position for the best image.
Dude your vlogs are very good. They're better than your reviews because they are raw and alive.
@@thewaronPR didn't say they were bad.
😉 you guys flatter me
This comment may or may not be sponsored by Bose.
I betcha sales of Bose wave radios just went up cuz of your comment, Sean! Haha!
Love this style of vlog jay. Brings out your personality and shows us the growing respect and admiration that you are developing amongst your peers.
I have not hear a setup that does not need subs. Yes 2 sub woofers. Regardless if it is a bookshelf or floor standing design. If I could only have subs with bookshelves them that would be my choice. The low end makes the music real for me. If you are at a live performance the bass is even heard outside the arena. Good video. Nice getting many reviewers input.
I like the versatility of bookshelf+subs, especially as a renter that moves every few years. Also I think there's subs...and then there are RELs with their easy integration
A MiniDSP will take care of integrating any decent sub. REL woofers don't perform well at all for their price.
@@stevenswall To each his own I guess. Sure I wouldn't use RELs for home theater, but for music, there's very few than can compete in terms of speed in the same price range
@@ruvamsi I've never seen them measure faster impulse response and don't think they have servos. Small doesn't mean inherently fast.
That was Great... learned a lot... nice that your bringing all these people together in one video!!!
Hilarious - - "buy a wave radio" - too funny !! Would it need to be 3 feet from the wall??
Great vid. Love that you got some of the great UA-cam audiophiles to answer ! Next poll should be integrated amp vs seperates!
@Pong Yang Sean actually answered this on a live feed and said integrated amp unless you're spending like 10,000 on each component. He said on lesser priced units integrated has a purer signal path and the sound is more synergized . I was surprised because I assumed he would answer seperates lol
Very fun and informative vlog. Thanks!
Only one of those setups is likely to get full-range sound and it aint the floorstanders. Very few floorstanders go down to 20Hz. I can excuse a -3dB point of 30Hz but anything higher and I don't think it even approximates anything you could call full-range.
I'm more in line with Steve and NewRecordDay on this. The flexibility of bookshelves and subs is one clear reason to get that combo. Decoupling the bass from the mids and highs is key- especially in a small room.
15:00 holy shit I was like "the fuck is going on with my parents TV" until I realised that the bass came from my sub
Vilip, steals the show here, with what has to be the most wise and succinct response to the question.
There is another advantage to bookshelf plus sub. a bookshelf and sub speakers weight less separately than a floorstander so it is easier to move them alone if needed. With floorstander it requires two people to move the speaker. Another question is if sharing same cabinet for a bass, midwoofer and tweeter in a floorstander negatively affects sound quality.
I use bookshelf with subwoofer in a small room where there is no room for a floor stander. My office and my laundry room are great examples of the issue.
I personally couldn't afford a good setup at once so I've added amp, then speaker now I'm getting ready to add a sub. It's hard to decide when your budget is limited, but I guess it's the same thing even if you had a chunk of money to spend. I just don't know enough about these so I really appreciate this kind of review. 감사합니다.
Love your presentation in this video.
Zero fidelity’s explanation made a lot of sense. Depends on the room size. Smaller / medium room = bookshelf + Sub
Larger room = towers
But..
For a home theater, most people cross over the towers and use the subs anyway, so go figure
A lot of great feedback, but I think new record day had a very astute comment on price being a critical qualifier to effectively answer this question given low pricepoint floorstanders will likely be outperformed overall by a sub sat combo. Price no object would likely be a different story.
Price no object would be studio monitors and a woofer with controlled dispersion and perfect integration. EX: Genelec W371 used as a stand with Genelec 8351B monitors.
The AudioNec Duopole DS driver is a variation on the Linaeum TLS (true line source) driver. I have some Linaeum LT1000 speakers from around 1990 that have the 6" high version of that driver. I am using a miniDSP 2x4 HD active crossover and EQ to get a nice smooth output - and the results are fantastic - the best I have ever heard.
Depends on the room. Bass seldom loads in the same place as mids/tweeters, BUT, most subs are junk, so... really HQ subs are $$$$
Robert Hart yes.
Would you pick a pair of R5s over LS50 Meta + a good sub? The right match for the LS50 in floorstander is the LS60 at 5 times the price. The R series cannot match the LS50.
When you sell them, how much shipping will the customer pay for 80kg, compared to 15/20kg? And can you even find a shipping company that will do a 1-off delivery of that size for an individual?
Can a normal person change the postioning of a 45kg tower without help or ruining their floor?
Personally, I prefer Floor Standers over Bookshelves plus Sub. The integration of sub with bookshelves I find to be a pain. Since bookshelves require stands even in a small room, I still go with Floor Standers. As Steve alluded to, I am one of those audiophiles where most Towers do not have enough extension and slam for me to live with. So, I will put in a sub along with a compact Tower. My experience has been, that a small Tower’s roll off tends not be as steep. Thus, integrating a sub with them has been easier.
Capable bookshelves and multiple subwoofers with an active crossover configuration.
That will beat ANY floor standing speaker. It's just physics, how sound sources interact with the room. Woofers basically never sound good where the mid/top need to be placed for proper imaging.
Yes. have just what you mention and have had very initiated friends at home and they compare my setup
with floorstanders at 8k usd. my sub and standmounts are for 2,5 k usd.
Liked the video. My answer? It depends.
I play the piano and organ. Organs not uncommonly produce music to 16 Hz. Once you've experienced that bottom octave, you don't want to give it up. Even with ensembles that only go to 32 Hz (C1), one octave lower gives a sense of ambience and gravitas. Still laughing at Sean dropping the ballerina with Wave Radio. He may require counseling. ;)
For pop music, I see no need to go below 32 Hz. And the reviewer who said "two subs," I agree with. Being able to separate best placements for the subs from the best placements of the floor/bookshelves not only gives sonic superiority, but also keeps wives from banishing you to the basement.
Nice vlog! So I don't have any experience with subs but what would an incorrectly optimized sub sound like? Would bass notes come in late because of time alignment?
What do you think about smaller floorstanders with active subwoofers build in? A bit of the two combined?
Enjoyed this a lot, I went with bookies and two subs. One reason is to free up my avr. Even though it is a pretty hefty yamaha 2080 it is powering 9 speakers when watching movies. Plus I can go to pure direct or stereo with subs for music listening.
Awesome video. Novel idea and approach. I like it.
I think it all depends on how much you spend on a bookshelf. If you buy a companies $600 bookshelf for example then I believe it will be better than their $600 floor standers in most cases and definitely better than a budget tower, imo.
The fellow with the green shirt @ 3:00 explained it very well. Was kind of on the fence with this since some ppl may have a favorite bookshelf speaker that they would like to keep the sonic character of but just need more low end and a sub could do the job. But yeah, settled for me now, floorstander seems best way to go. But bookshelves for desktop usage in 5.1 channel PC system, the sub is only choice.
For personal reasons and design strategy, I use bookshelf speakers with a Rel-S3 sub using the neutrik cable, which uses the left and right signal of the bookshelfs.
I still grapple with this one. I love floorstanders, always have. But never actually tried standmount. I’m stuck in the assumption that two channel small floor-standers is still best based on our small living room. And they sound GREAT. But can’t help wondering if adding the right and well-placed sub would extend, and add body to those lower hertz without destroying the overall balance. Size of room should be the primary concern, I guess.
My choice is floorstanders with subwoofers.
10" studio monitors with subwoofers.
Yep everyone knows this is the right answer, Why are they dancing around it ?
that was fun - thank you, I run longstanding with subs atm
Zero fidelity gave a Zero reply! Of course how can he
be honest about his “ real “ opinion being a reviewer ! It’s understandable. But I applaud Ron from New Record day for his honesty and sincerity! A Very helpful reply. He’s has been a good guide in truthful assessment in Hi Fi. Thanks for this vlog, because it shows where the preference definitely is. Floor standers rule for those that don’t want to fuss around too much and surely a good way to go generally. Much appreciated I’m sure you are going to be a huge success !
The honest truth is that there are significant advantages and dis-advantages that correspond with each choice. Floorstanders have plenty of issues. They tend to be less rigid, more complex, are more expensive, load rooms in more of an uncontrollable way, and tend to fall right in line with Floyd Toole and Sean Olives research that points to most people being drawn to whatever doles out "mo bass". As for my own take and honesty: I don't care because it all sounds fake as hell to me. No matter what the product is or how well its set up. This is why I'm indifferent to the subject. If bookies are your thing, cool. If towers are your thing, that's cool too. Most of us make choices based off of our living space, budget, aesthetic taste, and listening bias. My decision has no preference as it will ultimately boil down to what I like, which will have no bearing on whether its a tower or a bookie.
Zero Fidelity Thanks A lot for your reply. I appreciate it ! You made some interesting points. It may all be fake compared to a live performance ( not amplified ). Then again I guess hardly any musician would ever be able to make a significant living without the power of amplification. I once listened to a demo in Switzerland of the Boenike SW13.
I was so blown away that I was in tears. It was simply astounding. The emotion I felt was real even if it was fake compared with the a live performance. Movies are also fake. Real life is never like the movies and yet at times we can feel moved emotionally.
indifference ? I assume you love what you do even if it’s creating an illusion of the real thing ? I guess the object of the exercise is to asses what works most effectively and the reason for our preference. With gratitude.
@@petergordon931 Cheers. Those Boenicke's are great. I think there's a commonground in our objective. When it comes to stereo exotica, realism is nice, but an emotional connection is the end-game.
This is a long reply and hopefully it can shed some light for some of you: Tough call for sure. For years I was all in on floor standers over bookies. But a couple of things happened at about the same time. I got a pair of Revel M20 bookies and a pair of SVS ULTRA Subs... Coming off a pair of B&W towers that replaced my NHT's that I loved. Wow! So I thought, hell why not get Revel floor standers right? I did, but found that I was crossing over the dual 8" woofers in each at about 50hz. Could the floor standers provide more scale and play louder? yeah, but at not at volumes I'd want to listen to long term... And I'm talking uncomfortable db's. Then on to large Martin Logan electrostats...humm I really enjoyed those but they dominated my room (15' x 18) and as you know they need to be pulled out into the room. Gave that up. So, I was in a Magnolia room and saw Rel Subs stacked on each other and was taken back. Did an audition and some research and boom that is what I decided. Got another pair of SVS Subs, stacked them, tuned them to a pair of Sonus Faber bookies and bruuuaaah... Couldn't be happier !
The higher up in price I go, the more I gravitate towards floorstanders.
Say under a $5000 budget, a good $3000 bookshelf with x2 $1000 subs is nice.
Above $5000 you can get floorstanders that have "enough" bass with great imaging and driver integration.
You can always add subs to floorstanders too down the line.
I have floor standers with a sub. Magico S1MKII (two way floorstander) and a JL Fathom F110v2. For me this is a good option as the bass is good with the speakers but being only a 2 way I feel like the drivers integrate better.
I personally believe Powered subwoofer goes good with movies, for the explosions, etc etc. Not for regular music.
1:05 lol that elac was so piano gloss that your nbt studios logo looked like it was on the speakers form factory.. 😂
Bookshelves sitting on top of GR Research open baffle subs. Done.
Great video! The significant other wont let me add 2 subs to the living room, so the KEF LS50w's are getting sold and I'm getting floorstanders!
As someone mentioned in the video they really don't take up more space than bookies + stands. Okay maybe footprint is a bit bigger but it's not like you're using the space right around your speaker anyways.
I knew Ron’s answer would be much longer and more in-depth than any other participants. 😂 He’s a natural.... over thinker.
the bookshelf and two sub sounds like the choice
Floorstanding speaker. No doubt! 😁
Floorstanding speaker with 7" or bigger woofer.
What firstwatt amp are you going to review? Kinda hoping its going to be the B1 preamp :D
Floorstanders and a subwoofer (or 2) for me. There is a reason why bass acoustic instruments are huge. You do need a big/powerful dedicated driver for the 20-60Hz to have the same feel as the real thing.
I have a smaller space to work with. My listening space is a 9x9 square portion of the living room so it presents challenges. I have one space where I can really put the speakers which is max 2 feet from the back wall. The speaker options I'm currently weighing are the tekton lore reference and the wharfdale evo 4.2. Currently I'm leaning more toward the wharfdales.
Late response, for primarily home theater definitely bookshelves and 2 subs, 2 channel system I would prefer a floor stander.
I have three subs with bookshelf speakers, one sub beneath each of the bookshelf speakers, one between them, and a DSP that makes them all work together. Does that count?
This was funny. Vilip is the man of the day: he can throw at you his PhD in hifi while casually sipping his morning coffee 🤣🤣🤣
Still Sean is second to none. 😜
I came in here hoping to come to a conclusion but i am back at square one😅
For absolute best sound in most rooms. First you need a DSP or a intigrated amp/receiver that can do high-pass filtering and phase adjusment.
If you have or are willing to get those things, you can put wireless subs in the optimal locations,get them phase adjusted, and adjust the height of the bookshelf speakers so the Tweaters are even with your ears in the listening position.
If you don't want to mess with that stuff or you're an analog purist who doesn't want the signal molested by DSP, just get floor-standers. If you get speakers big enough to extend down to sub-30hz subwoofer levels, placement options will be limited.
One thing I didn't hear mentioned was upgrade path. If I start with a good sub, and good stands and I want to try something different, buying, selling, and shipping bookshelves while keeping the subs/stands is a lot cheaper than buying, selling, and shipping floorstanders.
I will tell you next week as I have just purchased a pair of Osborn Eclipse reference floor stander speakers ( I encourage you to look them up). these will be joining a pair of the Klipsch RP600m and a pair of Rel T5i subwoofers. the plan is to compare and operate both.
Keep us posted with you're impressions. Thanks
@@swiftraider759 will do !!
@@swiftraider759 Well its been a week with the new Osborns and I was doing the A + B comparisons and to be honest its a bit night and day, The floor standers are absolutely a cut above the bookshelves & REL sub combination. The thing is the floor standers are not even run in yet. I will admit that the Osborns were more than 2 and a 1/2 times the price of the Klipsch & Rel combination, But its like I have moved into a whole new world. I have listened to 3 types of media on both now Streaming CD and Vinyl and all 3 are winners on the full range speaker.
@@darrens7040 thank you for following up. I got to tell you I'm leaning in that direction of a full range speaker as well. I have tinkered with single and dual RSL speedwoofer 10s and they are great for Home theater. For music they are also fine, but just could not dial them in to my taste for music. A lot of experienced folks have mentioned equalization, umik, further room correction, sub crawl, high pass filters, dirac and that is just way to much work just to get it right and even then may not be to my liking. I am thinking of getting a 3 way full range floor standers without separate subs. I just want 2.0 setup for music and still keep subs for movies. To me good bottom end on a floornstander seems a little more natural. To all their own, but this further just kind of reinforces my personal thoughts. Bookshelves may have better imaging in some cases but that's much more manageable correction with floor standers. Thanks again!
Love these vlogs, very refreshing
Looking good! So is there a amazon link for the wave radio? 🤪
jay can you please can you tell me what's the difference between billie amp and hegel h90 ??
i'm torn between those two integrated amp
I prefer the low low bass, so bookies and subs is my choice.
depends how good you are at dialling in a good sub, my 15ft x 12ft room is crap with floorstanders whereas my LS50's and REL sub is spot on in this space. if i had a massive room i would still probably go with the faster bookshelves and have 2 subs.
Very entertaining video. My choice would be floor standers that have bass capability with amp that has tone controls.
Or book shelves that have bass capability with amp that has tone controls. The key is obviously the tone controls. This is the one feature that seems to be missing from modern amps. Not sure why this is not discussed more. Could it be that sub woofer manufacturers are in kahootz with the amp manufacturers? Just saying.
I started with bookshelves. The when I have more money add subs. Then when have more money replace bookshelves with floorstanders. Best of both worlds.
8:40
What are those speakers with metal grills on your right?
I use floorstanders but for completely different reason(s) that I've heard so far---If you have a good amp (mine is Anthem P2) with some serious damping factor you can get a really tight base response from the floorstanders,with no integration issues,assuming the speakers have a good low end.
But the floor-standers will have inductors in series with with the bass units which will swamp the low output impedance of the amp, whereas the subs being active will have much higher damping factor.
I got floorstanders with dual subs best of both worlds
Standmount vs Floorstander, they take up the same space, Stand mounts MAY have better imaging than floorstanders, floorstanders MAY have better scale, range and power handling.. Subs can be sited for best in room bass response and the standmounts can be sited for best imaging and soundstage....
Floorstanders have integration organised.. Personally I choose floorstanders and subs, accepting any integration difficulties for the benefit of power handling of the floorstander and the sheer slam and additional depth that the subs provide.
Floor standing speakers with two musical subs works great for me.
Floor standers WITH sub!
3-way floor standing + two subwoofers = real full range
Jay, that Audionec loudspeaker looks like it has an oversized Lineaum driver. Believe it or not, back in the 90's Radio Shack had a couple of speakers that used the Lineaum tweeter.
Yeap. Never this big tho and they were cheap !
The answer to this is not the same for everyone. Obviously some people don't have the room for floors slanders and the issues it creates with bass issues (room nodes) . Integration cN be obtained with a sub designerd solely for musical base such as a rel sub. And with some good bookshelf speakers it's hard to beat their imagining and disappearing act.
Bookshelf with sub. Why? So that I can get as much bass as I want when I want it. I have neighbors and kids and love my rel t5i.
New record day hit it on the dot. When you box it in with the Everyman budget. Standmounts and subs.
The only reason I would ever purchase "book-shelf" speakers would be for a desktop or to actually put on a shelf. If they are just going to go on a stand that is just silly vs floor speakers.
Can’t change your answer now just because I told you it was for a vlog! Lol
There is a speaker designer who once said, "big speakers have big problems." I find that's often true with floorstanders. Their large cabinets often produce large resonances that rob the system of imaging and transparency. This is especially common with cheap floorstanders under $3000/pair.
Harbeth monitor 30 plus subs, or harbeth 40 ..kef ls 50 pkus subs or kef floorstanders, ....it all depends on quality of each and of acoustic set up situation in listening room, several subs can manage room modes issues placing them on specific spots where midhighs are not happy....
Bookshelves for now.
Floorstanders for convenience. Bookshelves+Sub for sound quality.
- Passive floor standers can very rarely compete with powered subs on quality or quantity of bass.
- Bass quantity varies a lot among albums and subwoofer's volume control helps deal with that easily (esp if it has a remote control).
- Placement issues wrt. bass with Floorstanders as noted by Steve Guttenberg is also key.
Say you have Floorstander + Sub.... you still want to let the sub handle the bass instead of running the floor standers at full range as well (to avoid messy bass). So the bass capability on floorstanders doesn't matter in this situation.
In larger rooms the Floorstanders+sub make some sense due to higher sensitivity and taller presentation of floorstanders.
Wharfedale EVO4.2 + Dual Rythmik FVX12 = Awesome
Alright, alright! I’ll buy the Tektons!
You missed Paul McGowan! He'd probably say bookshelves with sub?
What do you call HEDD Tower Mains system ( www.hedd.audio/en/tower-mains/ )? The TM80 component is basically a D'appolito configured, very tall, very heavy, actively amplified, bookshelf speaker system (it only does down to 80Hz and that's it). It needs it's companion subwoofer system, the TMS 36. You can make it a "Floorstanding" speaker system, you can make it a tall bookshelf speaker with a short speaker stand with a subwoofer (or two subwoofers), of you can make it a D'appolito Tower/Floorstanding speaker that has a really really really wide frequency response, and nearly limitless power to push absurd level sound into your listening room.
All the bose wave radio owners are probably feeling vindicated right now lol.
I like to ask floorstander with subwoofer or bookshelf with subwoofer for movies?
How about a floorstander with built in subs to get the full range sound like the Zu Definition
I could be happy with either but my wife doesn’t like the look of speakers on stands. I kinda of agree with her after she pointed that out. She will also buy the largest vegetables even though I tell her to get the smaller ones because they taste better...to no avail. It’s out of my hands.
Yee floorstanders!
OMG, that was hilarious, man!
3:05 I couldn't have said it better myself
I have 2 subs and bookshelf speakers. Don't care so there!
Floorstanders + 2 subs.
I hear home theatres like that. They can be gang buster roof raising.
Always go floor standers over subwoofer. If you can.
Floor standers with Subwoofers (don't pay MSRP and you can get both)