Thank you for this... now I have a better understanding of what was happening to my body. It was a chronic fatigue & fibro diagnosis (after years of seeing specialists for a reason for my low blood pressure, dizziness and extreme exhaustion) that led, in part, to my ADHD diagnosis. After starting a course of Cymbalta and Adderall the fatigue has improved but regular yoga is necessary to fight off the muscle pain that comes with the Adderall. Your video is the best explanation for what was happening to me internally though
@DrJohnKruse thank you! Even my psychiatrist (ADHD inattentive subtype) had no further information about the impacts of perimenopause, although was supportive of me going on HRT and wanted to be kept in the loop
diagnosed last year, now long covid on top. the brain fog is debilitating. it could have been worse, so Im grateful for that. Still not being able to return to a normal cognitive state. Im doing all the things you mentioned, it was good to have this confirmed. thanks for this high value information.
Not knowing fatigue and ADHD are related, is the reason I was diagnosed at age 42. I think a new name for ADHD would raise a lot more awareness and save many people from a lifetime of despair.
Kia Ora Dr John, likely ADHDer (awaiting diagnostic screening) but ND with dyslexia and dyspraxia. My partner and i do well together as we both accept that fatigue is a part of our respective ND wiring and we accimodate it. We also have identified SAD increases the fatigue and time spent doing mindful activities reduces it
Wow I had no idea that my ADHD is causing fatigue. My energy usually tapers off around 3pm or sooner. I battle with feelings of shame around this tiredness. But now I think I’ll be more compassionate and kind with myself. Sometimes, my body is unwilling to take any action a things that I have to do. As I lay there paralyzed or fixated, a nagging voice joins in and then it adds to my discouragement…
What do you think about inflammation causing the fatigue for some people ADHD? I know many many peope who have asthma and ADHD, for some reason it’s a very common combo. Anyways, I was talking to my asthma doctor and she was saying that chronic allergies can cause fatigue because of how much energy it takes for you body to constantly have year around allergies. And she said it’s possible some of these allergies can kind of bleed into Brain inflammation, but mostly systemic.
Yes, neuro-inflammation seems to play an important role in fatigue from many sources. I talked about the connection between auto-immune illnesses and ADHD a few years ago ua-cam.com/video/TDvK8BIQLoM/v-deo.html and also addressed this with respect to COVID brain fog ua-cam.com/video/Q0o4faoarVM/v-deo.html
Dr. John, thank you for covering this topic that doesn't get discussed oftrn enough. Currently I'm 45, at 42.5 I started to experience what I would call borderline debilitating chronic fatigue, (I would consider from ADHD, Innatentive type as moderate, with the exception of when attempting to complete scholastic, higher level math, which I would then subjectively coassify as severe). I have several related questions. Is research showing that it's common, or has potential to be, in regards to developing a moderate - severe insidious onset of fatigue, in midlife? I dod also notice at this time a drop in free and total testosterone, and have treated accordingly with TRT, but to no avial of alleviation of my fatigue symptoms. Can long term use of stimulant medications cause a ln eventusl negative feedback loop and thus the blunt and impair the body's ability for the ADHD individual to achieve energy within normal limits? Ie; in relation to their cohorts who are neurotypical? Are the the energy impairment the result of a being a potentially common comorbitity, such as a form of narcolepsy, that due to the physiological neurological differences of ADHD brain's, almost bound to happen, (or have a hugh likelihood of doing so), with certain ADHD afflectrd individuals? Ie; akin/similar to the laundry list of comorbitities that type two diabetics suffer, secondary to their highly predisposed to many other maladies? Lastly, has there been any research showing that ADHD individuals have, or have the predisposition to have alterations, or degradations regarding how their bodies use, produce, and/or utilize orexin, and has there been any research involving the use of the peptide Orexin-A, or any prptides mimicking Orexin-A 's wakefulness properties, in ameliorating energy, and wakefulness? Sorry for being so verbose in my questioning. This area has had an extreme negative impact on my recent quality of life and abilities to properly engage in tertiary, rigerous degree, (accelerated,secondary master's of nursing degree), especially in relation to the math prerequisites. Even though I'm ADHD- Innatentive type, prior to my recent insidious onset of almost chronic fatigue like symptomatology, I was very physically and mentally driven, with high energy and less need for sleep and recovery than the majority of my cohorts.
I appreciate the insight on Dr. Lenz. If you don't mind me asking, have you noticed anything in particular that has made your etiologies worse or better, and in general have they gotten worse, better, or stayed the same over time? Lastly, are there any general or specific coping strategies,(emotional, medical, psychological, etc.), that help you to cope and adapt? I've usually been able to more or less grind things out while keeping a greater goal in mind at all times, however with the newer onset of CFS and narcoleptic type symptoms, I don't have the convenience of having that mindset anymore. I It's weird, it's almost as if subconsciously my mind is aligning with my body and my determination is just at a malaise default state and adhedonia is 99% the norm.
I haven't seen any research on how common the emergence of fatigue is after long term stimulant use. Clearly many people with ADHD have energy management problems even without / before starting stimulants. My expectation would be that if the major contributor to midlife fatigue was the medication, that the effects would be more gradual than you described. A relatively sudden onset to me suggests infectious/autoimmune origins. Overall, decreased energy/fatigue are often hard to identify, define, and label, so this has been a barrier to research. Many experts believe modafinil's major action on alertness and energy is through the orexin system (although others claim it is via dopamine). Modafinil has been shown to benefit many with ADHD.
@@ggram0551well I had a fall 1997 trigred hellish pelvic pain then CFS OCD from birth as my son and late mother great grandmother great great grandmother muscle pain started 2017 upper body do you have hypomobility now diagnosed autism ADHD causation central sensitisation late diagnosed 43 wish it been found earlier awaiting to start meds because shortage do you have hypomobility
Do you see much pain in ADHD in your practice all my father's side have ADHD sleep apnea fybromyalgia migraine I've taken no stimulants yet late diagnosed
I'm so frustrated - got now 15 days strattera expirience, which made me sleepy, I try to combine it with tyrosine rich foods, like 100g peanut butter plus 100g almonds, full grain pancakes, went ok , still no activity kicked in. I think my dopamine receptors have not enough dopamine, which is relevant for motivation which causes activity. I only sleep, have a regression in hygiene, which is a red flag honestly. I'm 39 I lost so much time, was late diagnosed in July this year. Strattera feels like a huge disappoinment. I put a lot of hope in it.
While Strattera does help many people with ADHD, I'm not a particularly big fan of it, and far more often have seen it produce more side effects and problems than benefits. ua-cam.com/video/_xDSfqWE3CM/v-deo.html If there are important reasons to start with a "non-stimulant" I generally recommend buproprion, duloxetine, viloxazine, or guanfacine before I go to atomoxetine (Strattera). I have additional videos on those substances on this channel.
@@Truerealism747 I'm not aware of any research that would indicate that it does. And since many antidepressants with SSRI action have neuroprotective effects on the hippocampus, one might expect that it would help with memory in the long run.
don't even get me started~ can't sleep, sleep for months, night owl and adhdeed to the hilt- im freaking so tired and loss muscle from just sleeping ...it's nuts. i feel there is never enough support in society for the genuine night owl and that factors in...but, mostly, if i can't tolerate stimulation stims, which stimulant could help? memory is dog doo, too. anybody relate? what did you do? thanks, dr. kruze, great topic!
I tried to keep this short, but nothing I do ends shortly so I'll leave it there for whoever feels like reading my comments on this generous clip from the Dr, and about my experiences with ADHD, especially in regards to motivation, study, and medication. Firstly thank you for explaining the fatigue aspect systematically! This shorter fom of biological processes in relation to an illness is quite rare and hard to find! It's a skill, so thank you. AAnd thank you to whoever created this algorithm. I haven't watched anything about ADHD in months but it read my mind... or just managed to control mine.q Describing the basic chemical processes of fatigue/actions of medication made this a lot easier for me to grasp! I have these fatigue issues myself since childhood and have always wondered if I didn't just have something else, or the classic "maybe I'm just weak... and dumber than I think I am... etc". When you feel good, you live your life. When you don't, it can be too easy to focus entirely on your illness and on the causes behind it. So I recommend that we keep a good balance: don't let your illness become your only interest! Always try to keep a shred if yourself in your pocket. Many with ADHD (me included, every single day, perhaps every hour) will get lost in the woods on the way to the dimplest of plans, from one thought to the next. You see a mushroom you learned to identify while procrastinating from studying something else. In the forest, on your lunch break: Are there any important things I forgot? You come back to the main path... the bag of mushrooms! You left them in the forest... you just put them down to free up your hands, and now you've left the only think you came here for. You pushed your break to the final minute, and you had to return to work on time... and then a few more areas looked interesting. Now you're running down the hill, yet still somehow looking for mushrooms, and you roll your ankle on a root. Damn... damn it. Up again, jogging now instead. Your head is spinning because you're moving too fast to see the detail needed to see the mushrooms, though you haven't got the time, and you don't want to look: but you look... you want to look. Ypu want to look all day. The ankle isn't too bad. In a panicked sweat you get to the bottom of the hill. You finally come to the surfaced road, and it hits you; my bloody bike! Damn! Maybe you'd even cry if you still had any sympathy for yourself (despite others saying how selfish you are sometimes, you don't rate yourself, or are at least indifferent in some way). The boke isn't locked, though the key hangs round your neck. You "didn't have time", and couldn't be bothered twisting a key 3 seconds, not when there were mushrooms... nobody will take it. On the way back up the hill you're quickly exhausted, and your back hurts. This is a drag. You broke your back surfing when you were 20, because you were mucking around. It hurts. It would probably be fine if you ever did your exercises, but naturally you don't, and never did since leaving the hospital 2 decades ago... you think about doing exercises every single day. You'll think about living right till the day you die... you're 40 years old, have 4 kids and a wife, acting childish on a hill, in pain, sweaty and dirty, and you should be at work... at the new job you were lucky to get after being let go for... for this kind of thing... from nearly every job you've had... even the ones you liked! You've come up with a good excuse: I rolled my ankle... kind of true...no I'd have to limp more then. Too silly. I ran out of fuel? You're on a bicycle... it was stolen!? What if they see me parked round the corner... and I've done this before; they will know. You need an excuse but you are already bored of thinking for one. Not in the mood. It'll come to me! No worries; please try to remember. Finally you reach the bike and shoot off down the forest track. It's not for offroad, and you jolt and bounce off stones, in the zone, one your late 80s city bike, the gears not working... I hope the wheel bolts aren't loose.... you never check them. There's no time... Your head swivels, eyes dart: hunting for mushrooms at 30km/h, late to work, almost falling twice. You never have a helmet... And yeah, damn, there's a whole bunch of chantarelles! But I can't stop! You stop, park, and jog back. It's fine, remember!? You had a good excuse organised... what was it? It'll come back to you. You grab the mushrooms, and realise you have no bag: you left it with all the mushrooms you picked in the forest. Joy dies. Damn... bloody Idiot! I'll get it tomorrow... you don't work tomorrow. Anyway, I don't really like eating most mushrooms... but picking them! You feel sick... your plan was to not bring lunch, and find it in 30 minutes in the forest... you suck at judging time, sometimes always. Will it ever change? Back on the track now, 35km/h, your front wheel turbs and slides, f&%£! Your stomach is in your throat, testicles ache with fear,dirty and sweaty, later than late, back stiff; but you save it. Sliw down a bit... back to work, 20m late... 21. You hear a ringtone... it's the work phone. Fuck! It was in your pocket. The others needed it to check off tasks from the list... damn. "Hi! Yeah I'm here, just round the corner. I'm coming. Sorry!" They hear your heavy breathing, wind, and the wheels over stones and dust. You tear into the carpark, park and lock, bending awkwardly because you couldn't be bothered taking it off your neck where the always hang, otherwise you'd lose them. Though you try hard to act calm, you burst into the office like a tornado. The door bumps the wall. Workmates are a little startled. Your eyes are wild, sweat beads on your head, panting... you look worried... how do I really look to them!? You don't know... no time to know. You smile, but that looks even crazier. They laugh 😂 "Where have you been, you're late! We were wondering! Why are you so sweaty 😂😂"! "Yeah so sorry... I rolled my ankle"! Damn... "Rolled it on your bike? Weren't you at the store?! You rolled it in your car or at the store?! Have you even eaten lunch?" Damn... damn... "Yeah... I had a walk... ate lunch in the forest! Little romantic picnic (you signal maybe you had a wank; risky move, since these are women), but I got lost... rolled my ankle running back... to my bike"! There's a nervous laugh from the ladies, then just side-looks... you need to reassure them before you leave. You're not a wanker! You didn't wank... fix something difficult here, like the clogged drain, tell a funny, mature story... damn effen damn it! You fix is the drain. And it makes you work overtime a little. This is your life. This is the best it has been in a few years... is thus the pinnacle? No... you have the psychology degree you started... you're only pausing a bit. Things are crazy, 4 kids, potential divorce, and will they renew my contract... and we are moving too. See next...
This makes you late for the bus, so you ride like lightning through the little obscure Swedish town... you ended up here by taking a break from a previous degree, and deciding to take a month or two off in Norway. After the last minute change to Sweden you translated a website poorly and ended up on a dating site... that's how you met your wife 9 years ago... that's how you never finished the degree... that's why you now live in Sweden instead of Australia. Thats the way it goes... she was pregnant after 3 weeks. 1 becomes 4, and all your kids are speaking Swedish. That character us based on me, it happened yesterday, and every detail is as close to true as I can remember... it's hard to remember details, especially names, dates, plans, times, words, what is important, birthdays, telephone numbers, two-item shopping lists, if you took your medication or not, and that this short post was supposed to be a short list of helpful insights. This is me almost fully operational. This is medicated me, working and fathering me. This is me not being late so often, and leaving a good impression. As I was saying... stimulant medication is finally working (my brain settles down at higher than recommended doses. I had refused to take it for years since it never worked at those doses. Then I fell in a heap [again] and agreed to try it. Rock bottom is often a better starting point than any other which isn't starting from the front-foot with building/reinforcing/preventing). So I tend to agree with medication now, and the diagnosis; at this dose I can take the medication properly, sleep better, exercise, hold better dietary habits, and just generally recognise myself a little more somehow. I can elaborate on my plans... I mean that I even HAVE plans blows my mind. I'm not usually late (as apposed to being nearly always late). I can build positive habbits (health, family, finance, personal), as opposed to negative habits (pain relief, short-sighted excitement with inherant dangers, etc) *Quick side-note-question: Would complementing stimulant therapy and good habit building with something to reign in tryptophan and/or other fatigue causing chemicals also have a positive impact on ADHD associated fatigue? And Re sleep: very important... not in the way of "I've heard this before" but as in please do it! What a difference to get 5 or 6 hours of sleep vs 3 or 4. From someone who has never slept well one week of his life, believe me when I say please sleep. I take varying doses of melatonin every night. All other medications - from zopiclone to zyprexa, old antihistamines, benzos, herbs - had side effects which make sleep an issue for me. I've tried them all. Often we take a benzo-based medication instead because our deeper issue is chronic stress, anxiety, emotional pain. So try to separate them, don't say melatonin doesn't work: it works for sleep. Your pain and stress relief will develop with time through developing a positive relationship with yourself and the world. Yes, you can learn. *Right now, my emotions and thoughts are racing, even with medication. I've slid off topic 14 times. I'm writing a too-long comment for most people. But won't stop. You can't feel bad for that: you accep it, note it, and continue. Be as gracious with yourself as with others. Youre fine. Because with acceptance and a positive valuation of yourself will give your instinct and creative mind the opportunity to recover, and run without pressure, and that will eventually make your ideas better, more cohesive, and easier to read!... if not a tiny bit long-winded. A few things I've noticed which could work with others: do not downplay your own interests and sense of your own intelligence! I have struggled to stay at university. I'm now studying psychology at 40. This is my 5th attempt at a 4th degree. I studied creative writing/Authorship (art school for writers), Bachelor of Arts, sone economics bachelor, and now psychology. Of all these, though others and my recent-past self seemed to think psych to be the most difficult. But psychology was by far the easiest, even if a grade minimum of 70% is required. Why? Because the other degrees and numerous certificates I've never managed to finish are too predictable, too familiar, too easy, and are uninteresting to me. Make it hard... maybe even impossible: make it interesting, and raise the stakes. I had a very solid belief of myself that I was quite stupid, and that I'd be worse in Psych than the quarter-nurse position I tried to study for, or whatever you are after a bachelor arts. It seemed so hard! I had a lot more to say, useful and important things but I need to turn the tap off, clean the house thoroughly, then get the kids from school
I stopped taking new patients when I moved to Hawaii two years ago. I felt that at this stage of my life it made sense for me to help lots of people to a small extent rather than focus on helping a handful of people in a bigger way.
Do you think adhd causes more fatigue than the autism my mum had austisnmand grandfather up until her illness ms she had loads energy father has adhd loads fatigue and had cfs have both.😊
Best channel for in-depth knowledge of the subject 😊
Thank you for this... now I have a better understanding of what was happening to my body. It was a chronic fatigue & fibro diagnosis (after years of seeing specialists for a reason for my low blood pressure, dizziness and extreme exhaustion) that led, in part, to my ADHD diagnosis. After starting a course of Cymbalta and Adderall the fatigue has improved but regular yoga is necessary to fight off the muscle pain that comes with the Adderall. Your video is the best explanation for what was happening to me internally though
I'm so glad that it provided some help.
Add perimenopause to the mix for me
@@egon2012 there's been a great deal of interest in the impact of menopause on ADHD, so I will be addressing that in the not too distant future.
@DrJohnKruse thank you! Even my psychiatrist (ADHD inattentive subtype) had no further information about the impacts of perimenopause, although was supportive of me going on HRT and wanted to be kept in the loop
diagnosed last year, now long covid on top. the brain fog is debilitating. it could have been worse, so Im grateful for that. Still not being able to return to a normal cognitive state. Im doing all the things you mentioned, it was good to have this confirmed. thanks for this high value information.
Not knowing fatigue and ADHD are related, is the reason I was diagnosed at age 42. I think a new name for ADHD would raise a lot more awareness and save many people from a lifetime of despair.
Yes, we need to keep improving understanding and awareness of what ADHD can entail.
Kia Ora Dr John, likely ADHDer (awaiting diagnostic screening) but ND with dyslexia and dyspraxia.
My partner and i do well together as we both accept that fatigue is a part of our respective ND wiring and we accimodate it.
We also have identified SAD increases the fatigue and time spent doing mindful activities reduces it
I'm glad that you've found approaches that work for the two of you.
Wow I had no idea that my ADHD is causing fatigue.
My energy usually tapers off around 3pm or sooner.
I battle with feelings of shame around this tiredness. But now I think I’ll be more compassionate and kind with myself.
Sometimes, my body is unwilling to take any action a things that I have to do. As I lay there paralyzed or fixated, a nagging voice joins in and then it adds to my discouragement…
What do you think about inflammation causing the fatigue for some people ADHD? I know many many peope who have asthma and ADHD, for some reason it’s a very common combo. Anyways, I was talking to my asthma doctor and she was saying that chronic allergies can cause fatigue because of how much energy it takes for you body to constantly have year around allergies. And she said it’s possible some of these allergies can kind of bleed into Brain inflammation, but mostly systemic.
Yes, neuro-inflammation seems to play an important role in fatigue from many sources. I talked about the connection between auto-immune illnesses and ADHD a few years ago ua-cam.com/video/TDvK8BIQLoM/v-deo.html and also addressed this with respect to COVID brain fog ua-cam.com/video/Q0o4faoarVM/v-deo.html
Thank you!
By the way, your voice has gotten a lot better
Thanks, but I'm still me. However, Max Poli has been generously spending time to edit and improve the audio on these older Live videos.
Dr. John, thank you for covering this topic that doesn't get discussed oftrn enough.
Currently I'm 45, at 42.5 I started to experience what I would call borderline debilitating chronic fatigue, (I would consider from ADHD, Innatentive type as moderate, with the exception of when attempting to complete scholastic, higher level math, which I would then subjectively coassify as severe).
I have several related questions. Is research showing that it's common, or has potential to be, in regards to developing a moderate - severe insidious onset of fatigue, in midlife? I dod also notice at this time a drop in free and total testosterone, and have treated accordingly with TRT, but to no avial of alleviation of my fatigue symptoms.
Can long term use of stimulant medications cause a ln eventusl negative feedback loop and thus the blunt and impair the body's ability for the ADHD individual to achieve energy within normal limits? Ie; in relation to their cohorts who are neurotypical?
Are the the energy impairment the result of a being a potentially common comorbitity, such as a form of narcolepsy, that due to the physiological neurological differences of ADHD brain's, almost bound to happen, (or have a hugh likelihood of doing so), with certain ADHD afflectrd individuals? Ie; akin/similar to the laundry list of comorbitities that type two diabetics suffer, secondary to their highly predisposed to many other maladies?
Lastly, has there been any research showing that ADHD individuals have, or have the predisposition to have alterations, or degradations regarding how their bodies use, produce, and/or utilize orexin, and has there been any research involving the use of the peptide Orexin-A, or any prptides mimicking Orexin-A 's wakefulness properties, in ameliorating energy, and wakefulness?
Sorry for being so verbose in my questioning. This area has had an extreme negative impact on my recent quality of life and abilities to properly engage in tertiary, rigerous degree, (accelerated,secondary master's of nursing degree), especially in relation to the math prerequisites.
Even though I'm ADHD- Innatentive type, prior to my recent insidious onset of almost chronic fatigue like symptomatology, I was very physically and mentally driven, with high energy and less need for sleep and recovery than the majority of my cohorts.
Dr lenz talks about ADHD fybromyalgia CFS connection I have fybromyalgia CFS ADHD autism heds
I appreciate the insight on Dr. Lenz. If you don't mind me asking, have you noticed anything in particular that has made your etiologies worse or better, and in general have they gotten worse, better, or stayed the same over time?
Lastly, are there any general or specific coping strategies,(emotional, medical, psychological, etc.), that help you to cope and adapt?
I've usually been able to more or less grind things out while keeping a greater goal in mind at all times, however with the newer onset of CFS and narcoleptic type symptoms, I don't have the convenience of having that mindset anymore. I
It's weird, it's almost as if subconsciously my mind is aligning with my body and my determination is just at a malaise default state and adhedonia is 99% the norm.
I haven't seen any research on how common the emergence of fatigue is after long term stimulant use. Clearly many people with ADHD have energy management problems even without / before starting stimulants. My expectation would be that if the major contributor to midlife fatigue was the medication, that the effects would be more gradual than you described. A relatively sudden onset to me suggests infectious/autoimmune origins.
Overall, decreased energy/fatigue are often hard to identify, define, and label, so this has been a barrier to research.
Many experts believe modafinil's major action on alertness and energy is through the orexin system (although others claim it is via dopamine). Modafinil has been shown to benefit many with ADHD.
@@ggram0551well I had a fall 1997 trigred hellish pelvic pain then CFS OCD from birth as my son and late mother great grandmother great great grandmother muscle pain started 2017 upper body do you have hypomobility now diagnosed autism ADHD causation central sensitisation late diagnosed 43 wish it been found earlier awaiting to start meds because shortage do you have hypomobility
Do you see much pain in ADHD in your practice all my father's side have ADHD sleep apnea fybromyalgia migraine I've taken no stimulants yet late diagnosed
I'm so frustrated - got now 15 days strattera expirience, which made me sleepy, I try to combine it with tyrosine rich foods, like 100g peanut butter plus 100g almonds, full grain pancakes, went ok , still no activity kicked in. I think my dopamine receptors have not enough dopamine, which is relevant for motivation which causes activity. I only sleep, have a regression in hygiene, which is a red flag honestly. I'm 39 I lost so much time, was late diagnosed in July this year. Strattera feels like a huge disappoinment. I put a lot of hope in it.
While Strattera does help many people with ADHD, I'm not a particularly big fan of it, and far more often have seen it produce more side effects and problems than benefits. ua-cam.com/video/_xDSfqWE3CM/v-deo.html If there are important reasons to start with a "non-stimulant" I generally recommend buproprion, duloxetine, viloxazine, or guanfacine before I go to atomoxetine (Strattera). I have additional videos on those substances on this channel.
@@DrJohnKruse does doulexatine damage long term memory
@@Truerealism747 I'm not aware of any research that would indicate that it does. And since many antidepressants with SSRI action have neuroprotective effects on the hippocampus, one might expect that it would help with memory in the long run.
don't even get me started~ can't sleep, sleep for months, night owl and adhdeed to the hilt- im freaking so tired and loss muscle from just sleeping ...it's nuts. i feel there is never enough support in society for the genuine night owl and that factors in...but, mostly, if i can't tolerate stimulation stims, which stimulant could help? memory is dog doo, too. anybody relate? what did you do? thanks, dr. kruze, great topic!
I tried to keep this short, but nothing I do ends shortly so I'll leave it there for whoever feels like reading my comments on this generous clip from the Dr, and about my experiences with ADHD, especially in regards to motivation, study, and medication.
Firstly thank you for explaining the fatigue aspect systematically! This shorter fom of biological processes in relation to an illness is quite rare and hard to find! It's a skill, so thank you.
AAnd thank you to whoever created this algorithm. I haven't watched anything about ADHD in months but it read my mind... or just managed to control mine.q
Describing the basic chemical processes of fatigue/actions of medication made this a lot easier for me to grasp!
I have these fatigue issues myself since childhood and have always wondered if I didn't just have something else, or the classic "maybe I'm just weak... and dumber than I think I am... etc".
When you feel good, you live your life. When you don't, it can be too easy to focus entirely on your illness and on the causes behind it. So I recommend that we keep a good balance: don't let your illness become your only interest! Always try to keep a shred if yourself in your pocket.
Many with ADHD (me included, every single day, perhaps every hour) will get lost in the woods on the way to the dimplest of plans, from one thought to the next. You see a mushroom you learned to identify while procrastinating from studying something else.
In the forest, on your lunch break:
Are there any important things I forgot? You come back to the main path... the bag of mushrooms! You left them in the forest... you just put them down to free up your hands, and now you've left the only think you came here for. You pushed your break to the final minute, and you had to return to work on time... and then a few more areas looked interesting.
Now you're running down the hill, yet still somehow looking for mushrooms, and you roll your ankle on a root. Damn... damn it. Up again, jogging now instead. Your head is spinning because you're moving too fast to see the detail needed to see the mushrooms, though you haven't got the time, and you don't want to look: but you look... you want to look. Ypu want to look all day. The ankle isn't too bad.
In a panicked sweat you get to the bottom of the hill. You finally come to the surfaced road, and it hits you; my bloody bike! Damn! Maybe you'd even cry if you still had any sympathy for yourself (despite others saying how selfish you are sometimes, you don't rate yourself, or are at least indifferent in some way). The boke isn't locked, though the key hangs round your neck. You "didn't have time", and couldn't be bothered twisting a key 3 seconds, not when there were mushrooms... nobody will take it.
On the way back up the hill you're quickly exhausted, and your back hurts. This is a drag. You broke your back surfing when you were 20, because you were mucking around. It hurts. It would probably be fine if you ever did your exercises, but naturally you don't, and never did since leaving the hospital 2 decades ago... you think about doing exercises every single day. You'll think about living right till the day you die... you're 40 years old, have 4 kids and a wife, acting childish on a hill, in pain, sweaty and dirty, and you should be at work... at the new job you were lucky to get after being let go for... for this kind of thing... from nearly every job you've had... even the ones you liked!
You've come up with a good excuse: I rolled my ankle... kind of true...no I'd have to limp more then. Too silly. I ran out of fuel? You're on a bicycle... it was stolen!? What if they see me parked round the corner... and I've done this before; they will know.
You need an excuse but you are already bored of thinking for one. Not in the mood. It'll come to me! No worries; please try to remember.
Finally you reach the bike and shoot off down the forest track. It's not for offroad, and you jolt and bounce off stones, in the zone, one your late 80s city bike, the gears not working... I hope the wheel bolts aren't loose.... you never check them. There's no time...
Your head swivels, eyes dart: hunting for mushrooms at 30km/h, late to work, almost falling twice. You never have a helmet... And yeah, damn, there's a whole bunch of chantarelles! But I can't stop! You stop, park, and jog back. It's fine, remember!? You had a good excuse organised... what was it? It'll come back to you.
You grab the mushrooms, and realise you have no bag: you left it with all the mushrooms you picked in the forest.
Joy dies. Damn... bloody Idiot! I'll get it tomorrow... you don't work tomorrow.
Anyway, I don't really like eating most mushrooms... but picking them! You feel sick... your plan was to not bring lunch, and find it in 30 minutes in the forest... you suck at judging time, sometimes always. Will it ever change?
Back on the track now, 35km/h, your front wheel turbs and slides, f&%£! Your stomach is in your throat, testicles ache with fear,dirty and sweaty, later than late, back stiff; but you save it. Sliw down a bit... back to work, 20m late... 21. You hear a ringtone... it's the work phone. Fuck! It was in your pocket. The others needed it to check off tasks from the list... damn.
"Hi! Yeah I'm here, just round the corner. I'm coming. Sorry!" They hear your heavy breathing, wind, and the wheels over stones and dust.
You tear into the carpark, park and lock, bending awkwardly because you couldn't be bothered taking it off your neck where the always hang, otherwise you'd lose them.
Though you try hard to act calm, you burst into the office like a tornado. The door bumps the wall. Workmates are a little startled. Your eyes are wild, sweat beads on your head, panting... you look worried... how do I really look to them!? You don't know... no time to know. You smile, but that looks even crazier. They laugh 😂
"Where have you been, you're late! We were wondering! Why are you so sweaty 😂😂"!
"Yeah so sorry... I rolled my ankle"! Damn...
"Rolled it on your bike? Weren't you at the store?! You rolled it in your car or at the store?! Have you even eaten lunch?"
Damn... damn...
"Yeah... I had a walk... ate lunch in the forest! Little romantic picnic (you signal maybe you had a wank; risky move, since these are women), but I got lost... rolled my ankle running back... to my bike"!
There's a nervous laugh from the ladies, then just side-looks... you need to reassure them before you leave. You're not a wanker! You didn't wank... fix something difficult here, like the clogged drain, tell a funny, mature story... damn effen damn it!
You fix is the drain. And it makes you work overtime a little.
This is your life. This is the best it has been in a few years... is thus the pinnacle? No... you have the psychology degree you started... you're only pausing a bit. Things are crazy, 4 kids, potential divorce, and will they renew my contract... and we are moving too.
See next...
This makes you late for the bus, so you ride like lightning through the little obscure Swedish town... you ended up here by taking a break from a previous degree, and deciding to take a month or two off in Norway. After the last minute change to Sweden you translated a website poorly and ended up on a dating site... that's how you met your wife 9 years ago... that's how you never finished the degree... that's why you now live in Sweden instead of Australia. Thats the way it goes... she was pregnant after 3 weeks. 1 becomes 4, and all your kids are speaking Swedish.
That character us based on me, it happened yesterday, and every detail is as close to true as I can remember... it's hard to remember details, especially names, dates, plans, times, words, what is important, birthdays, telephone numbers, two-item shopping lists, if you took your medication or not, and that this short post was supposed to be a short list of helpful insights. This is me almost fully operational. This is medicated me, working and fathering me. This is me not being late so often, and leaving a good impression.
As I was saying... stimulant medication is finally working (my brain settles down at higher than recommended doses. I had refused to take it for years since it never worked at those doses. Then I fell in a heap [again] and agreed to try it. Rock bottom is often a better starting point than any other which isn't starting from the front-foot with building/reinforcing/preventing).
So I tend to agree with medication now, and the diagnosis; at this dose I can take the medication properly, sleep better, exercise, hold better dietary habits, and just generally recognise myself a little more somehow. I can elaborate on my plans... I mean that I even HAVE plans blows my mind. I'm not usually late (as apposed to being nearly always late). I can build positive habbits (health, family, finance, personal), as opposed to negative habits (pain relief, short-sighted excitement with inherant dangers, etc)
*Quick side-note-question:
Would complementing stimulant therapy and good habit building with something to reign in tryptophan and/or other fatigue causing chemicals also have a positive impact on ADHD associated fatigue?
And Re sleep: very important... not in the way of "I've heard this before" but as in please do it! What a difference to get 5 or 6 hours of sleep vs 3 or 4. From someone who has never slept well one week of his life, believe me when I say please sleep.
I take varying doses of melatonin every night. All other medications - from zopiclone to zyprexa, old antihistamines, benzos, herbs - had side effects which make sleep an issue for me. I've tried them all. Often we take a benzo-based medication instead because our deeper issue is chronic stress, anxiety, emotional pain. So try to separate them, don't say melatonin doesn't work: it works for sleep. Your pain and stress relief will develop with time through developing a positive relationship with yourself and the world.
Yes, you can learn.
*Right now, my emotions and thoughts are racing, even with medication. I've slid off topic 14 times. I'm writing a too-long comment for most people. But won't stop.
You can't feel bad for that: you accep it, note it, and continue. Be as gracious with yourself as with others. Youre fine.
Because with acceptance and a positive valuation of yourself will give your instinct and creative mind the opportunity to recover, and run without pressure, and that will eventually make your ideas better, more cohesive, and easier to read!... if not a tiny bit long-winded.
A few things I've noticed which could work with others: do not downplay your own interests and sense of your own intelligence!
I have struggled to stay at university. I'm now studying psychology at 40. This is my 5th attempt at a 4th degree. I studied creative writing/Authorship (art school for writers), Bachelor of Arts, sone economics bachelor, and now psychology.
Of all these, though others and my recent-past self seemed to think psych to be the most difficult. But psychology was by far the easiest, even if a grade minimum of 70% is required.
Why? Because the other degrees and numerous certificates I've never managed to finish are too predictable, too familiar, too easy, and are uninteresting to me. Make it hard... maybe even impossible: make it interesting, and raise the stakes.
I had a very solid belief of myself that I was quite stupid, and that I'd be worse in Psych than the quarter-nurse position I tried to study for, or whatever you are after a bachelor arts. It seemed so hard!
I had a lot more to say, useful and important things but I need to turn the tap off, clean the house thoroughly, then get the kids from school
That captures it pretty well.
I think lots of patient with afhd have depression and do not get diagnosed properly. Often only the depression is treated.
Can I do a consultation with you
I stopped taking new patients when I moved to Hawaii two years ago. I felt that at this stage of my life it made sense for me to help lots of people to a small extent rather than focus on helping a handful of people in a bigger way.
Adhd meds help muscle pain in ADHD fatigue syndrome s
Do you think adhd causes more fatigue than the autism my mum had austisnmand grandfather up until her illness ms she had loads energy father has adhd loads fatigue and had cfs have both.😊
Most people feel intimidated by phsychiatrists, I , on the other hand, tend to hold/view them with contempt and derision. Why do you think this is?
There is s popular notion that most psychologists are seeing a psychiatrist, and vice versa. Is there any voracity to this notion?