How Dumb Are The Black Knights? | Code Geass - Betrayal
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- Опубліковано 22 вер 2022
- There's been a lot of buzz online about the coup d'etat of the Black Knights lately. Today we explore the age-old question raised by the title. Is it wise for the Black Knights to abandon the leader who has lifted them up from subjugation? Should Lelouch have realized the Black Knights no longer needed his strength? Let us know in the comments below!
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It was really dumb considering they distrusted Lelouch because although he led them to countless victories, he was a prince of Britannia and yet they trusted Schneizel who was also a prince of Britannia that did nothing for them at that point.
In Trilogy movie, that are Actually skeptical on Schneizel and during stand off on Lelouch, they quickly realize Lelouch are actually saving them by acting as scapegoat and Black Knight actually BEG Lelouch to actually defend himself. That where Schneizel act quickly by shooting at Lelouch first.
Well he did organized the marriage that would have seen them destroyed, so maybe they LIKE people who mistreat them.
@@charlestonho6733 The movies really did tidy things up
Well it was dumb because the writer make them look dumb. What other reason can make the black knights betray lelouch other than they being dumb???
To be fair, Ohgi did demand that Schneizel return Japan to them as the price for betraying Zero. At the end of the day, the goal of the Black Knights' members is to reclaim Japan, not exactly loyalty (or I guess lack thereof) to Zero. Zero just happened to be their best shot at it, hence why they followed him up to this point.
After losing their trust in Zero, the next best way to accomplish their goal of liberating Japan is to get a prince of Britannia (and I guess Cornelia as a princess too) to officially return Japan to them. I wouldn't say it's so much they _trusted_ Schneizel as a person over Zero, but he did have the authority and power to give them what they want. And it seemed like Schneizel did hold up his end of the bargain to some degree since in the next episode he signed a ceasefire treaty with the Black Knights, and had already started talks with them and Kaguya (likely to discuss the terms of "returning" Japan to them).
I don't know what the Black Knights would've done if Schneizel didn't agree to the condition Ohgi set, though; would they still have confronted Zero even without Schneizel and continue their rebellion without him? Would they continue to follow Zero until they possibly beat Britannia, then just betray him once they're done?
It’s fine if they were skeptical of Zero, but the fact that they just trusted their arch enemy so easily is what pisses me off.
Not even just trusting but siding with him and eventually becoming his pawns (that what they fear Zero would use them as) it's whats get me mad about the whole conflict
@@-Garaf- well that’s not completely true because as seen with before the emperor arc the black knights were independent… relatively and only decided to follow his lead because… they knew they couldn’t beat lelouch in strategy(which point taken)
I think trusted is wrong and it’s important to note that although they were extremely shaken they decided the best course of action was to question zero himself of these claims… just too bad when they did that lelouch was feeling really suicidal
In Trilogy movie, that are Actually skeptical on Schneizel and during stand off on Lelouch, they quickly realize Lelouch are actually saving them by acting as scapegoat and Black Knight actually BEG Lelouch to actually defend himself. That where Schneizel act quickly by shooting at Lelouch first.
@@charlestonho6733 Yeah that was a neat extra that the movie trilogy brought
The worst part of it was that NONE of the people who turned against Lelouch were geassed. The only one who was geassed, Kallen, stood by his side.
Not even in any meaningful way tho, was simply to ask her something that was obvious and he learned later anyways
@@mustardsouls1005 Yes, but that wouldn't be relevant info to the argument so it would be omitted, neither would they readily know such a detail anyway even if they could prove or at least give suspicion to her being Geassed.
@scottjs5207 but she wasn't geassed in any way that would affect her loyalty is what I mean
Once the geass is used we always see the neurons of the brains of geassed people change permanently, if the task they are given is completed the geass ends and those people become immune to geass again. We even saw lelouch trying with all his might to force geass on Shirley in her last moments, however she was immune, despite seeing the ring of geass on her eyes, though the damage to her body was too much for her to heal on her own geass or not.
fr
The biggest irony of this is that it ultimately leads to Brittania losing its freedom through mass use of geass. Thanks Schniezel.
Not to mention that Schniezel himself “made the people of pendragon disappear”. Schniezel himself never cared for the right thing, he merely sought out the best tactical and strategic advantages every step of the way, such as with the FLEIA and the destruction of the Black Knights command structure. Lelouch killed a lot of people but he always cared about the sacrifices he made, and he found his resolution to make those sacrifices worthwhile as peace dawned on humankind.
@NotVanquish :) funny part is schizel litrally ended the royal family prtty much, besides lelouch,himself,nanaully and 2 other princess (both shown in different spin offs) survived and 1 died soon with lelouch so from having like 100 members the Britannia royal family has like 4 members now
Well, only the elite nobles held the most freedom, and Lelouch mostly eliminated the entire line to the throne through his geasse
Honestly I wanted to smack the sh*t out of Ohgi when they betrayed Lelouch.
Did they really think Schneizel would honor his words?
same here omg! I was thinking how freaking blind and simple he is. Just cus his partner gave her 2 cents, and the OPPONENT said some things that sounds legit, he ought to at least know his own members, those that were in the resistance BEFORE zero appeared? He knew them prior so im sure if they feel different, he would have felt it? Plus they were figthing britannia BEFORE zero popped up so what the hell does he meant by zero lying to them lol. They don't even know what those on the papers were geassed for! What if its just "can u help me get a glass of water?" lmao.
Thankfully in the resurrection he offered up his life as repentance once so i let this part slide from then on. If not he would really be one of the characters that irritates me in the show.
Lelouch: Ohgi, Ohgi, Ohgi, you're forgetting one very important thing!
Ohgi: And what's that?
Lelouch: I dunno but you're forgetting it.
better yet is that Schneizel promise to free Japan and yet it should be a common sense that the prime minister may declare non aggressive pacts, peace and war on the Emperor's behalf, but it won't change the fact that only the Emperor has the "power" to free a conquered country never mind the fact that Charles most likely wouldn't approved the freedom of Japan in the first place regardless of how it would have split Lelouch and the black knights apart and greatly weakened them in the process and made them easy for the picking and reconquer Japan without fanfare!!
Lelouch honestly should have slaughtered those traitors
@@georgeprchal3924 Lelouch: I used Geass on your girlfriend to take her Knightmare while she was massacreing innocent people.
I vote to hereon refer to the Euphemia Incident as: The Eu-Fiasco
I love it and we will be using it
*claps like Shia Labeouf*
@@KatoBeyond 7:24 is that a fire alarm?
Idk I like the euphemincident more
Euphemia's Gamer Moment.
Lelouch must have done *really* well on that history test.
Not necessarily he only asked for the topics the test would be on
@@garrymoloney9570 they're trying to say that he must have done so well on the test hence the reason Schneizel figured he Geass'd his teacher
@@blitzzard. wasn't lelouch already a top class student from the beginning, I think they might have done some sort of test on the whole school after the end of R1
@@Demi-demon this might have just been some small plot hole tbh, cause how would you even figure he used it on the teacher 😂
@@Demi-demon im pretty sure they mentioned Lelouch grades werent perfect as he always slept on class so maybe he just slept in the history class More than the others which got him a lower degree?
The only betrayal I had problem with was Diethard. He never followed Zero out of ideology, or a sense of right and wrong. He followed him because of the spectacle that he created, and for the chance to mythologize history as it's happening. He also remained loyal to Zero by running away to the Chinese federation after the failed assault on the Tokyo settlement. Diethard has learned never to count Zero out even when it looks hopeless. So I doubt he would give up on Lelouch that easily. I'm not saying he would never betray Lelouch, but after finding out about Geass and the fact that Zero is actually a Britainnian prince. I can't help but feel the possibilities that creates would only entice him to follow Zero even more.
Nah, the dude is out to go for the story and he probably thought Zero is over and go to the other side for a better storyline.
@@Zero.Requiem Like I said I'm not saying he would never betray Zero. I just think it happened too fast, and too easily.
@@christopherbrown6523 like you said he's not out there for the ideology. Same as when one of your favorite protagonist die, you move on and shift your support to your other favorite protagonist. The case here is they didn't know Zero is the main protagonist of the story. Plus the fact that the group already decided and they didn't decide on capturing him but to kill him instead. Didn't diethard the first one to said something after zero shows up while holding a camera watch it again. That's the reason your looking for.
@@Zero.Requiem I rewatched the show again recently so I know the scene your talking about. But I still think it happened too easily. Also I think your comparison to a favorite character dying isn't appropriate because Lelouch wasn't dead yet, and like I said Diethard has seen Zero rise again after being left with nothing before.
exactlyyyy
It wasn't the betrayal itself that was irksome, it's that immediately after learning a hard lesson in why you shouldn't blindly devote yourself to a charismatic individual who promises you the world and will likely dispose of you once your use runs out... they go and blindly devote themselves to a charismatic individual who promises them the world and will likely dispose of them once their use runs out
They're chickens with their heads cut off. They floundered so hard when toudou was captured. They need to have a messiah figure to get anything done, otherwise they continue doing petty shit like disrupting a cargo shipment. Kallen second guesses her motivation constantly because of how incompetent they are without someone telling them what 1+1 is
…I wouldn’t say devote but they certainly didn’t try to stop it.
Throughout the show, we see Kallen and Oghi repeatedly act emotionally. Kallen is a 17 year old girl, and acts like it literally every episode, showing how she cannot make rational decisions in stressful situation, literally BEGGING Zero to tell her what to do. Oghi, too, is a traumatized victim of several massacres and tragedies, who loses his cool and almost starts crying the moment the plan fails. He has zero ability to improvise and mostly just LETS things happen around him while desperately clinging to his hope for peace.
And then Todo the dodo, literally cannot form a battle plan that isn't throw your bodies at the enemy and drown them in your blood.
The Black Knights are literally the worst of the worst (terrorists) who only get anywhere because they're too stupid not to get used. If not Zero, then it was the Houses of Kyoto, or local crime bosses.
The older I get, the more true to life that part is, actually.
Schneizel: Lelouch has magical powers to mind control people.
Oghi: Yes that’s totally believable.
Also Oghi: Is literally banging an enemy baroness. There’s totally nothing suspicious about that.
If the Black Knights used critical thinking skills they would have realized that if Lelouch used Geass on him, they wouldn’t be capable of going against him.
Also Kirihara knew who Zero was and put his full trust in him.
Kirihara could have been Geassed from their perspective, he was completely vulnerable and changed his attitude toward Zero when he saw his face. Whether the Black Knights could defy him also depends on what command they were given. Kallen had free will despite being a Geass victim for instance
@@KatoBeyond The whole argument "Are we uneder control?" falls apart as soon as you assert your free will. That was definitely a critical thought error.
But the other stuff works.
@@KatoBeyond To problem with that is, why should the black knights suddenly believe that a supernatural force like Geass exist in the first place? Especially when all evidence for its existence comes from the enemy?
@@darko8959 Yeah also if the prince Schnitzel knows the existence of Lelouch geass whom cannot tell he also has the same power. Why they only think Lelouch he's the only royal family member who have this power. Jesus Christ why they believed Schnitzel so fast
@@darko8959 they believe because of the recorded conversation of lelouch and suzaku it doesn't matter if come from the enemy .then a follow up of Villetta.ohgi will automatically agree with that.😁😁
Their betrayal was always the most annoying thing I have ever witnessed. Shit got me shook as a kid. But in the end, I like the fact that it happened. They didn't deserve to win, just like Suzaku did not deserve to see his goal come to fruition. They all win in the end, but not in the way they want. Only Lelouch gets to truly win.
And Lelouch only wot by pulling himself through all the blood sweat and tears, The man was literally against the world and Geass. Mother Fucker was on hardcore Extream Mode. and still won.
God I'd love a redo of this series, but made better and longer. But that's just me.
But at what cost...
@@DarthFhenix55 Not the highest really. He was always willing to sacrifice his life. He is free of his feelings towards his mother after he discovered she was just like his father and nunally was alive in the end. It could have been a lot worse. It is a happy ending technically. Though nunally certainly spent a few years grieving after the zero requiem. And the world wasn't technically saved, but he paved the way for it
@@kurozumi9834 And he came back in the movie.
@@nerobernardino88 Yeah he did.
The problem that I have with the Black Knights is that without Lelouch, they are pathetic.
Every single time the group has attempted to do something without Lelouch, they have failed miserably and resulted in Lelouch having to save them. They failed to liberate area 11, they failed to maintain their visage when Lelouch vanished at the start of season 2, they failed to kill him after this scene, and they fail to stop him at the end of the anime.
As a result, It makes me personally feel like every last one of these people only exist as pawns to tell Lelouch's story... Which I think he admits to.
That's why Lelouch outsourced some of their jobs to the Britannians.
@Traveling scales even more impressive is that the Britannians were able to win with Suzaku on their team. (but I guess Suzaku is a Britannian now, as are Kallen and Lelouch)
@Traveling scales I'm incredibly disappointed the Britannians never sang Rule Britannia at any point in the show.
@Traveling scales I wonder if the Britannians had Parks and Rec style murals put up in Japan?
That's because Lelouch build all of the order of the black knights around him. All of the order of the black knights is manipulated by Lelouch. So of course it won't work without him. See it as a car without a wheel. It can run and drive but it needs to be steered in the right direction to be affective in its job. (Lelouch manipulating people is the wheel)
“His geass can be affecting even me now.”
This line by Schneizel is why the BKs are idiots. Todoh later comes to the conclusion that Lelouch’s forces are under complete control, and yet still think Lelouch might’ve used his geass on them. Absolutely no critical thinking at all lmao
To beat a tactician, you have to be a tactician. Schnizel struck at the right time when Lelouch was at his lowest and because the the Black Knights aren't very smart, this was an extremely easy task for Schnizel to carry out
@@JaredGonzales-gv9yh Schneizel is supposed to be smart, so it’s of course no surprise that he can manipulate them.
It’s just the people in question are comically stupid and I doubt it’s intentional.
It's Magic(k) tm, if you'd lived your whole life in a rational world, and suddenly your ENEMY told you your leader had magical powers... I dunno, I feel like it'd be easier to assume THAT was a lie and that magic doesn't exist, let alone believing your faithful leader, who's been in the trenches with you, is somehow mind controlling you...
That they believe in the rules and limitations, too, is a bit of a reach. Believe in magic, sure, okay... but then to also believe it has rules and limits? I dunno, it's pretty goofy.
This is the main flaw of Code Geass... All the characters are idiots, except the MC and a few main villains . Nobody else is trying to rub two braincells together.
@@subratanandy2142 The only one that can be excused for being an idiot in Code Geass in my opinion is Suzaku. Because he weighs up his idiocy and hypocrisy with the fact that he's one of the best pilots/fighters in the series. Arguably THE best fighter/pilot.
Ohgi's betrayal was the most hypocritical thing he could have done in the series.
He betrayed them when he went and took a brittanian woman, a potential enemy without telling anyone, one that didn't have any memory but may have a clue on who's Zero, around a battlefield.
Then, during black rebellion she was let into Ashford, without checking for weapon, thanks to Ohgi himself, he was shot, lost control of the school, giving time to v.v. to take Nunnaly, putting the entire operation at risk.
He did this behind everyone's backs, and now he presents himself with the same woman by his side as a witness, witness that has any reason to condemn Zero.
OGHI was a guy whose mind was on his penis instead of his brain. NO WONDER WHY THE BLACK KNIGHTS ARE COMPLETE LOSERS UNDER HIS LAME COMAND.
He knew it was hypocritical but still did it. Because he was getting Japan back from Schnizel which zero failed to deliver despite all his theatrics.
@@AnimeCritical Ohgi's blunder was why Black Rebellion ended up failing in the first place.
Then he betrayed the world itself by going along with the man who created a nuke and wanted to throw it all around the world, a man so heinous he killed practically his entire family without any kind of remorse, a man who could just easily double cross Ohgi.
@@Hiraishin247 Yes but ohgi did not know all this about schneizel at the time. To him that was a noble prince while zero had murdered children. And zero could not give him Japan but Schneizel could very easily. I think ohgi made the correct decision.
Also how black rebellion failed due to ohgi? Zero abandoned them twice for nunally.
Oghi was never presented as a smart or rational person. He's a traumatized victim who happens to be likeable on the surface, making him an excellent stooge. Sadly, so excellent is his stooging that he stooges for anybody asking.
Just a quick note: Kirihara once hinted to Ohgi, Kallen, and Tamaki how they should trust Zero and why his face should remain hidden (because he was not Japanese).
Kirihara could have been Geassed for all they know.
@@KatoBeyond Britannian intelligence was wrong that Katase was under Geass, although the manga presented a scenario where that happens sans the Battle of Narita.
@@KatoBeyond As far as the Black Knights were concerned, knowledge on how Geass works was probably limited to Kallen, who was aware of it by the start of R2, and perhaps Urabe, who was the only one of the Four Holy Swords to know about Zero's true identity for some reason. Since Kallen was with Ohgi and Tamaki during the Kirihara meeting, she might have known the limitations of his Geass should have kept the veiled Kirihara from falling under it, but since she had become a lone voice in the sea of negativity against Zero, they probably only noted from Kallen how Geass works, and nothing much else. Sumeragi was seen in the UFN meeting covering her eyes after their Geass countermeasures failed, which implies the core leadership of the Black Knights already knew how it works, and Schneizel probably did, too, this time from Suzaku most likely - if only because the Emperor always kept him in the dark about it with words like "mundane" - as may be implied by the final moments at the Damocles. One more thing, Kirihara was not presented by Schneizel to be under Geass, but only insinuated that anyone could have been under it without their knowing. Since Kirihara was already dead by R2, he could not have been able to confirm nor deny this. Only Sumeragi and Suzaku might have known the Kirihara connection should have made the use of Geass unnecessary, but Sumeragi probably failed to catch this possibility.
@@alraposas3785 To be fair with Katase though, they did say these were suspected people not all of them confirmed, and everyone thought it was weird that he went the suicide route. So they are assuming Zero Geassed him to do it, rather than him just murdering him.
@@KatoBeyond It still probably should've been something brought up, however, as it should've been the best point they had to brush off any issue regarding his identity. That being said, it's probably necessary for the plot that it wasn't, as while a response could be that Kirihara was geassed, *Tohdoh* would've been able to put two and two together that Kirihara would've been able to believe in Lelouch's goal without the need for Geass.
Lelouch didn't keep Viletta prisoner, he didn't even know Viletta was kept prisoner, Diethard kept Viletta prisoner.
They really betrayed the man that did more in a month then the whole Japanese military and Tohdoh ever managed to do in 8 years. And Ohgi falls for mediocre 🍑 who manipulates a teenage girl to go into a war zone and spies on teenagers with a child slave soldier.
There is no world in which Villetta could be described as "mediocre".
@@DrDoompenguin you mean the world of anime? Everything about her personality and goals shows she’s a crappy person and her character arc is mediocre with the only attractive thing about her being her body. And in the world of anime even that is mediocre.
@@Warlock_Lelouch Her personality isn't great but you said "mediocre 🍑" which is objectively false.
@@DrDoompenguin nah your just basic AF
Viletta: Mediocre? That's just mean.
Oghi is a massive Simp. The dude betrayed the black knights for Viletta and all of us know it.
Another point is that the Black Knights did not even think that if they are under geass why would they be able to disobey or betray him
It's all Ohgi. That was the single most competent he ever was at being a leader, rallying everyone to stab his lord and saviour in the back.
He never repeats that level of competence in the entire length of the story.
It’s probably why he was even made Lelouch’s number 2 in the first place.
Judas
@@justinpachi3707 Kallen being his number 1. After his pact bonded partner, C.C.
Lol.
@@pumpkingamebox well you did pull a Jesus
Turns out Lelouch pretty much solos on hard difficulty. LOL accurate.
No, no. Don't forget about Rolo. Even when Lelouch disowned him, he didn't abandon his big brother, saving his life and helping him trough his depression. Best little brother ever!
If it wasn't for Rolo, Lelouch would have died. No doubt about it.
@@manolgeorgiev9664 Good point. Lelouch made some damn good allies and friends.
@@tsarfox3462 No. Rollo was a completely unexpected ally and Lelouch sure as hell didn't 'make' that happen. It was 100% on Rolo's end.
I would say Rolo was the most extreme wild card in the entire series and that's saying a lot.
Wait, but wouldn't lelouch lose because he doesn't have nina and suzaku to beat the damocles?
@@asianpersuasion4901 Well he didn't have Nina, she was an opponent by that point. But you make a good point. He does need either Kullen or Suzaku. If he ever got both he'd take over the world in a day.
Iirc the arms dealer was tasked with making Zero's iconic outfit. Lelouch ordered him to make it through underground channels as discretely as possible, then wiped his memory once it was completed.
Yep. It's very brief and easy to miss. I know I only caught it a year or two ago after a rewatch.
Although it sucks how quickly the Black Knights turn on Lelouch, no onr can say it wasn't bound to happen eventually. To anyone learning for the first time of Lelouch's actions behind the scenes in the series would look pretty inhumane and his Geass would be an automatic red flag to question your allegiance. Even Kallen felt distrustful of Lelouch after learning the first time and needed a year in story to think on it and still want to bet on him as their best chance at the time. In the end Schniezal just came at the right time to disrupt everything and force everyone to make a decision at that exact moment of confusion, emotions were high for everyone.
I've never disliked them betraying Zero, and Schniezel played it perfectly, notice that people like Kaguya and Xing-ke aren't there for instance.
My issue is that they have no proof at all. Like what if Schniezel had a video of when Rolo and Lelouch faced off. Talking about Rolo making him miss time. Both have glowing eyes. And so on. Actually hard to fake proof.
In Trilogy movie, that are Actually skeptical on Schneizel and during stand off on Lelouch, they quickly realize Lelouch are actually saving them by acting as scapegoat and Black Knight actually BEG Lelouch to actually defend himself. That where Schneizel act quickly by shooting at Lelouch first.
@@charlestonho6733 Ignoring that that's different continuity in multiple ways, they still let Schniezel into the room, they didn't have to. So, it's still them being traitorous.
@@nahte123456
More than that, nobdy of them even thought. "We remove/kill him, then what?" Those idiots failed to relise they were pawns not players, one way or another. After they betrayed Lelouch they joined Snitchel... They literaly joined another prince of brittania who will use them even worse than Zero did.
Hell even before all that they were the ones who wanted him back because they had no hope of wining instead of confronting him they betrayed him and doomed themselves in a fate worse than death. Patriots and revolutionaries that failed to free their country and it was instead freed by the person they betrayed.
If i was ordered too kill a bunch of children i my loyalty would be weaken ... I hope so
I like how Tamaki seems like he is that idiot in group but when shit hits fan and everyone is beliving that Zero betrayed them he is the only one that thinks cleary and wants clear evidence instead of being like "yeah that's true".
nah he just didn't wanted to blieve schneizel not that he trusted zero. he could have said we got results and getting geassed or not doesn't matter if it will free the japan. their first motive was freeing japan and they forgot that at that part and blieved enemy prime minister lol
Tamaki is a literal contrarian, and the only reason he doesn't go along is because he NEVER goes along without talking mad shit first.
I think realistically even if the black knights learned all of what Zero had done was true they would've still taken his side because they were so close to having true freedom from Britannia. The way they all turned on Lelouch just seemed like a fever dream, like yeah sure he may have done some screwed up things but the results spoke for themselves, would the Japanese be remotely close to being free if it wasn't for Lelouch's intervention? The only thing that would make them hesitate would be the massacre of Japanese that he accidentally forced Euphemia to commit. The state of the Japanese people was so bad that the hatred they had for Britannia was overwhelming, they would've willingly served the devil if it meant they would gain their freedom and force Britannia to recognize that Japan and it's people aren't slaves. I mean as soon as they betrayed Lelouch they pretty much never considered that Schneizel wouldn't immediately reset the board back to the way things were, the black knights without Lelouch can't be seen as anything more than a joke.
its hard to say what they would've realistically done, but the fact that lelouch massacred the japanese people twice because of geass its hard to pass
@@LuisFelipe-vn7pe a small price to oay for freedom. Would you rather trust a guy who accidentally kill X amount of Japanese or trust a guy who had killed multiple times the X amount of Japanese for years. Well the choice is yours
The massacre is a pretty good reason to betray someone. It's inevitable, but they should've waited
@@LuisFelipe-vn7pe
"Supposedly"..
I mean, would you believe the enemy's words in a jiffy and point guns at the single hope you had in decades to freedom?
@@LuisFelipe-vn7pe What do you have to say for yourself Lelouch.
It was accident, my bad; didn't realize I left the Geass on.
Small correction but at 5:52 that guy isn’t a teacher at the school, it’s the guy at the mall that lelouch geasses in R2 episode 3 to push the alarm to make a scene.
Oh wow, great catch
The unnamed arms dealer was the one who created Zero's mask. He likely noticed the discrepency in his designs and that there was slightly less materials than expected which he would report. It is also possible that his coworkers reported this after Zero's emergence.
Lelouch's teacher is a bit hard to explain but my guess is that he talked about the suspicious circumstances unknowingly. Lelouch used it to find out what would be covered on the test. As far as the teacher knows, he told Lelouch nothing but supposedly Lelouch got 100% on the test anyways. He probably mentioned it in passing to the other teachers how weird that was. Villetta waa investigating Ashford and Lelouch specifically so it is likely she heard this strange account.
I mostly agree with what you said in the video but another factor I would like to add is the context around the meeting. The FLEIJA had just dropped, wiping out the Tokyo settlement which from what we have seen seems to be the most densely populated part of area 11. This is obviously a devasting loss to the Black Knights which would leave them looking for guidance. Zero was giving strange and dangerous orders during the battle and then locked himself in his room, refusing communication right after. This left the BKs disorientated like a headless chicken. Along comes Schneizel and gives them answers, communicates, and even makes a deal that would benefit them. A big part of his point was that Zero knew about the FLEIJA and chose to attack Suzaku regardless. He ignored better judgement and gave into his rage. He never warned the Black Knights about it. When the Tokyo settlement was destroyed, he was more concerned with the welfare of the viceroy than the millions that had just died. This is a big part of why the Black Knights joined Schneizel as quickly as they did. There were only two possible culprits, Zero and Schneizel. Only one of those was open about the situation. Though they likely regretted their actions after the fact, the Black Knights locked themselves into joining Schneizel through their own emotions and couldn't take it back. Schneizel also had a FLEIJA warhead on his plane so while it was unlikely that he wouod use it, that was still a bargaining chip in his hand.
Good comment, good comment. That is important context. I agree with your guess about the teacher, but still it's a little weird. Maybe if he was specifically asked "Did Lelouch ever talk to you outside of class?" then his answer would give something away. I am also tempted to say that this moment is probably when Lelouch realized Schneizel was willing to FLEIJA them both. Knowledge which came in handy later. But unfortunately, we don't know if Lelouch ever found out that Schneizel came equipped with the FLEIJA on that occasion.
@@KatoBeyond This might not be the best explanation as Lelouch was already at the top of his class in terms of scores, but perhaps Lelouch scored particularly well on that test, combined with some knowledge that Lelouch had asked about that test that may have stuck in the teacher's head as odd. Schneizel probably interviewed everyone who attended that school in detail to try to work out exactly how Lelouch went about testing his power to try and work backwards to figure out all the rules and limits of it. If you're dealing with an unknown power and have the intelligence and resources of a person like Schneizel, I could see him trying to figure out every single detail possibly even tangentially related.
Mask? I was just headed to the comment section to mention that he supplied the giant rich person vehicle that became the black knights first base. Lelouch told them "I borrowed it from a rather liberty nobleman who indulges my requests" Although I suppose it's also possible on the mask, as that vehicle also contained the black knight uniforms. I imagine that guy did a lot for Lelouch over the course of the series.
@@ThePurpleKnightmare He didn't get the vehicle from that guy, that guy is neither a nobleman nor rich. Plus he had already used Geass on the arms dealer for the mask, he couldn't have used it a second time, and it's very clear he used Geass to get it.
i have to refute that zero didnt believe kurrugi on the fleija warhead he even says so he dosnt trust liars who sell out their frends and he hung up the call the warhead was a suprise to lelouch as much as it was to any one else
The one thing that gets me is that it took a season and a half for the black knights to fully well almost fully trust Zero, but took one conversation to make them betray him
The doubts had been building up ever since Lelouch blew up the Japanese Liberation Front. Ohgi thought Zero might be behind it and that's why he was so desperate to find out his identity, so he could find a reason to trust Zero and convince himself Zero was innocent. But he couldn't because he wasn't. But still he remains one of Zero's biggest defenders and is a large part of why the Black Knights mostly trusted him even after he abandoned them at the end of R1 and refused to give an explanation.
Speaking of that Zero abandoning them at the end of R1 and never giving a good explanation (because their isn't one, ultimately his motive while sympathetic was selfish) broke pretty much all of the trust the Black Knights placed in him and he was only able to rebuild it by saving them and by Ohgi and Todoh defending him but even after that there was a huge rift between the Black Knights and Zero.
Lastly, Zero massacared countless seemingly innocent people for no reason when he destroyed the order of Geass. This was arguably a necessary evil but Zero's rationale of "their trying to make immortal soldiers" was hardly a good enough reason to kill children. After learning of this Todoh's second closest friend (if we count Chiba as his friend), Ashina, told him he couldn't trust Zero and betrayed him (which was stupid btw, betraying him I can understand but you need to at least wait until after Japan has been liberated first). Then after this the FLEIJA destroys half of Tokyo and Ashina implies Zero is to blame. Afterwards Zero has a meltdown, tells Todoh he doesn't care about the Black Knight casualities and demands them to search for Nunally. So, Todoh has plenty of reason to betray Zero at this point. Chiba is loyal to Todoh and not Zero, Tamaki is loyal to Zero but also Ohigi and Diehard only went along with the betrayal because everyone else did and he didn't think he could change their minds.
All in all, I think the Black Knights should have at least waited for Zero to liberate Japan before betraying him and they should have tried to learn more about Geass to develop a counter so they could hear Zero's defense without risking themselves before deciding whether or not to betray him rather than trusting that the prime minister of Britannia would actually honour his word but considering a lot of their closest allies had just been killed by the FLEIJA I think it's understanable they made such a stupid decision, much like it's understanable that Lelouch has a meltdown after his Nunally dies.
TLDR: Even before this conversation the trust the Black Knights had in Zero was at an all time low for several reasons, something that had been happening for a long time.
*for a moment let's suppose that Lelouch was not overcome by grief (wanting to die cuz he believed that Nunally was dead) and had his superior IQ*
Lelouch: "...so you believe that the only reason you follow me is because of my Geass right?
The Stooges: "Right."
Lelouch: "...which is, remind me again. Absolute. No way of breaking it. So strong that Euphemia, my sister, turned from a beautiful gentle princess who wouldn't hurt a fly to a beautiful gentle princess with a murder boner for Japanese. Correct?"
The Stooges: "Right."
Lelouch: "...and you somehow have the idea that the way to stop me from using you, again, after using the geass of ABSOLUTE command, is to... confront me in an open coup d'etat. Correct?"
The Stooges (at this point with their mouths drooling and eyes swirling in opposite directions): "RiGhT."
Lelouch: "...okay then. Kill yourselves."
The Stooges: "Huh?"
Lelouch: "I'm sorry, did I stutter? Or mayhaps you have obtained some form of brain disease that lowers intelligence other than Tamaki who is actually acting as moronic as he usually does? I said, to people, apparently under my absolute command, to KILL themselves."
*silence*
The Stooges: "Wait, so we aren't-"
Lelouch: "Exactly."
I believe he would have been able to turn them back around if either of the two happened. If he was there during the conference or at the very least not distracted by the grief from Nunally's death. As you said, Schneizel's timing was impeccable.
Right? Like they accept the fact that his Geass is absolute and worry that Lelouch has used it on them…without realizing that he could order their loyalty so this discussion wouldn’t be an issue 😂
Afterwards:
Lelouch: I want a refund on these dumb fucks.
it wouldn't work everyone in the room including Schinzel would die but then the nightmares would kill lelouche
@@originalgreatdouchebag2866 at that point in the series, Lelouch had already killed Clovis and Euphemia with his own hands. I don’t believe his mental stability would be impacted much by the deaths of most people in that room. Kallen wasn’t in there at the time, anyway.
@@originalgreatdouchebag2866 nope, why kill Schneizel when you can geass him?
The Japanese resistance's main benefactor, an old man who is the primary owner of all the Sakuradite mines in existence, is the sole and primary reason that the Black Knights implicitly trusted Zero in s1.
He explicitly told them that Zero is a man to be trusted and that he hates the royal family of Britannia more than anyone else; he was the one person who could make such an endorsement, knowing the truth about Lelouche's identity and his past with Suzaku.
And the story (and fan base apparently) completely forgot about him.
Another reason to bring Shirley's file is that Kalen has just recently rejoined the Black Knights. Schniezel might not know exactly how loyal she is or how many of Lelouch's secrets he knew, so it would help to bring along ammo for something personal to Kalen. Same goes for the school teacher. These aren't just "people Lelouch used geass on" because that list is incredibly wide. They're cherrypicking targets who would upset any Black Knights representatives who might show up to the meeting. The eunich is for Xin-Qe. Jereniah is for Vidalia. Etc.
Kallen: I see, so I don't Merritt a file? My dad's a Duke or Earl or something, I demand to see your manager!
@@georgeprchal3924 I’m sorry but her being geass didn’t get known by anything like there was no file for Cornelia who was geassed justed to answer questions truthfully
This is were the argument falls apart: these revalations have the opposite effect. The fact that Zero has mind controll only makes it more important too keep him on their side, because otherwise they would begin to loose valuable members and never be able to get the same types of victories. Essentially, the implication is that the Black Knight are carried by magical powers, and that they would loose all ability to act or negotiate after betraying Zero.
In some fanfictions Schneizel's bluff is made even better when it's later revealed that he as a Prime Minister had no legal right to grant independence to an Area which is something only an Emperor can do.
PS: That arms dealer was the one who created Zero's mask.
I agree with what you said but still, I wouldn't trust my enemy before speaking to my ally. And I think that them questioning their action because of the geass it's pretty hypocritical because they were already fighting Britannia before Zero arrived! What I liked is the contrast of Lelouch taking responsibility even for his mistake against them blaming Zero for their choices!
Yes, but the fact that Zero didn't tell them not too much about him is already a suspicious move, and even worst, if he is a prince of the enemy they were fighting, i think it's easylie to assume that this wasn't about freedom but a war for the crown...
Ohgi is the biggest traitor all because he fell in love with the woman who shot him. He also got a happy ending with Viletta, the two characters who didn't deserve one.
The Black Knights didn't just betray Zero at this point, they betrayed the Kyoto group at who threw everything behind them on the basis their leader KNEW who Zero was. I would have expected Toudou to understand that Zero was a necessary evil that the Black Knights needed to survive no matter who he truly was. Their betrayal was exactly that, a betrayal. They followed him, understanding there were reasons he kept his identity hidden, then the moment the slightest doubt was hung over their heads, they pounced on him.
The greatest way to sum up the entire reason they followed Zero was the moment Oghi is aboard their flagship, looking down at the VOLCANO EXPLODING BELOW THEM. The word he utters in horror as he realises the Black Knights are in a battle they probably couldn't win.
The only thing that doesn't make sense is that if Lelouch used his Geass on them then they'd be incapable of doubting him. Thus their very doubts and suspicions and ability to choose to turn on him prove that he never hijacked their free will.
Also, given the absolute power of Lelouch's Geass, he could have made things much easier for himself if he just permanently enslaved all his enemies, as he does towards the end. The fact that he chose not to do so shows that he has respect for free will.
However, they weren't thinking straight because they've been rattled.
This is the only hole I can give on Code Geass because it doesn't make sense, Zero single handly won impossible battles no one could even think he'll win. Yet they still marked him as an enemy after everything.
The real problem there is that they should have taken him as a convict while protecting themselves from Geass and led their own investigation ; While indeed it's understandable that they have doubts and lose their faith in him, to simply try to execute him without a proper talk or investigation on their own, and not guided by two of their worst enemies doesn't make sense at all, they are dumb, Schneizel and Cornelia represent what they fought against all along, to trust them is beyond the land of acceptable;
it goes as far as them threatening to kill Kallen along Zero, to just betray the man who gave you a chance when you should have died in the shinjuku ghetto and who allowed you to get japan back and just side with those responsible of all your struggles and fight ? To threaten to kill the ace without who you'd have never go this far (and when she is like a sister to you ?)
No one say they didn't have any reason to lose faith in him, but even Asahina's moves were ridiculous, they were in a large scale operation to take back japan and the guy just decide that it's time to stop Zero ? Think, buddy, think. It's even worse in Turn 23 when you have Kallen trying to talk some sense into them and them just brushing her off like she is nothing and her opinion doesn't matter. The whole back knight betrayal was a mess and yeah they were dumb, I think you justify their lack of vision way too easily there.
They couldn't do that. To take someone prisoner is to give him time to escape and in this instance they have to account for his geass too. What if he has placed some of them under geass already and they turn against them and free him? How does his geass work exactly? They don't know and they can't take the risk.
And most importantly, Lelouch had already lost their trust with what happened at Tokyo. Schneizel only put the final nail in the coffin really.
The FLEIJA had just dropped, wiping out the Tokyo settlement which from what we have seen seems to be the most densely populated part of area 11. This is obviously a devasting loss to the Black Knights which would leave them looking for guidance. Zero was giving strange and dangerous orders during the battle and then locked himself in his room, refusing communication right after. This left the BKs disorientated like a headless chicken. Add to that the communique that Tohdoh had with Asahina about the strange missions of the Zero squad against the Geass order and the massacre that happened there and you have a recipe for disaster.
Along comes Schneizel and gives them answers, communicates, and even makes a deal that would benefit them. A big part of his point was that Zero knew about the FLEIJA and chose to attack Suzaku regardless. Something that can be proven by the communication logs at the Lancelot AND the Shinkirō. Meaning that Zero knew about the nuke and ignored it completely. Not only that, but in the aftermath he completely ignored the wellbeing of his soldiers and people and only tried to order them around to find the Viceroy. I don't know about you but that already gives credence to everything that Schneizel has being saying to them.
This whole mess is Lelouch's own mistake. He ignored better judgement and gave into his rage. He never warned the Black Knights about the FLEIJA and when the Tokyo settlement was destroyed, he was more concerned with the welfare of the viceroy than the millions that had just died.
This is a big part of why the Black Knights joined Schneizel as quickly as they did. There were only two possible culprits, Zero and Schneizel. Only one of those was open about the situation and not only offered proof, he also offered an ending to the war.
I don't think there was any other option they could make at the time. We are angry that the Black Knights betrayed Zero, but in the end, it was Lelouch's own actions that brought about the betrayal really. All of them had already doubted him at least once and his secretive ways as well as his irrational behaviour at times. His complete disregard for the lives and well being of his men during the latest battle was what led them all to abandon him in the end.
Exactly, they were children! Acting on impulce. If you remove Zero from them they have no leaders to take his place, they were pawns while Lelouch and Snitchel were the players. They only betrayed him just to join Snitchel!
Though in the end they did get a punishment worse than death, they were patriots who fought for their country and their countrymen, their only accomplisment was to betray and fight against the one who freed their country. If that is not a mark of shame for life for them i do not know what is.
@@kpetalis The only problem I have with what you said it's why they believe only Lelouch have this power. Why they didn't have doubt Schnitzel or another royal family member have also this power. They put their fate right away after betraying Zero to another royal Prince.
@@20thCenturyBoyz Tension, adrenaline and a sense of betrayal. Rage, anger, all of the above is really the reason they didn't question it.
And most importantly, it was the presence of Cornelia that made them all give credence to the evidence presented to them.
They all already knew that the massacre that Euphemia ordered was too much of coincidence and didn't really add up with the character of the princess. And they knew from experience that Cornelia really loved Euphemia and would never put her in harms way. Remember the hotel hijacking? She would never support someone that had harmed her sister and destroyed her name. So, the fact that she supported Schneizel's claims and the fact that she apparently hates geass with a passion, made them certain that Schneizel does not have geass.
In the end the fact of the matter remains that there was too much distrust, righteous anger and a sense of betrayal from the Black Knights to really trust Zero ever again. He didn't gain any points by showing everyone of them that their lives mean nothing to him as long as his nebulous goals are achieved when he ordered them around to search for an enemy Viceroy while millions of people had died and their forces where almost completely obliterated over the Tokyo Settlement. After that I really praise their ability to not jump immediately to the chance to tear him apart. This was the second time he left them to die, remember the Battle for Tokyo during season 1?
The only reason they even followed him a second time was because Oghi and Tohdoh supported him. Now, even those two cannot find it in their heart to support him.
Lelouch had lost all credibility at this point. The evidence Schneizel presented to them explained everything that happened too well. It fit with all their doubts and questions they had and it was too much for them to ignore.
The fact they even gave him a chance to explain himself was already amazing.
@@20thCenturyBoyz Thing to keep in mind is that any general who had done what Zero was doing at this point would've _also_ experienced a mutiny without the reality of "by the way, he can also control minds and has done so to your detriment in very specific ways I can prove". The geass made matters worse, but he was on thin ice even without it.
Even if they thought they had been controlled by the geass. The fact they could stand against him after being supposedly compelled to obey. Should have meant they either had never been under his control. Or could break free of it without any special effort.
Not to mention that regardless of how they might feel betrayed by him not telling them the truth. He has undoubtedly held up what he said he would do. Near the end of season one. They were on the brink of victory.
I love how Ougi enters with a known britannian baroness in tow and everyone is like "yeah he's totally not compromised"
Their IQ dropped 50 points to make the plot move ahead, lol
Considering everything, when Ohgi offered Lelouch a gun in the movie, were that me, I would have at least shot him in the leg.
@@neh1234 for real
right
CC admitted not being Japanese and yet they didn't distrust Zero because of that.
Schneizel was like: zero sus, eject him
and black nights were like: oh yeah, i actually saw him vent...
As many comments already pointed out, the arms dealer supplied Zero with the costume. I think he is also the old man who Lelouch helps in the chess game of the first episode of season 1 at least it looks like the same character. And that would explain how lelouch knew him. Although how this character is such a good costume designer, who knows.
In a conversation with C2, Lelouch says he always planned his rebellion and that receiving a geass just accelerated his plans. The costume was probably already made beforehand.
The dumbest part about this is that they react like they have some moral high ground to stand on and maintain. Todoh should know better than any of them that war is a dark, ugly thing and sometimes you have to do nasty things to win. Lelouche did those things for them and delivered the impossible, results which they accept while they reject him and his methods, like the ungrateful hypocrites they are. In this scenario they should have gone with the devil they knew, rather than let a worse one talk them into the stupidity that followed.
-Led them to victories multiple times
-saves Kallen's resistance cell from being massacred and helps turn the battle in their favor, and is able to force Prince Clovis to order a ceasefire in order to save the Japanese in the Shinjuku ghetto
-He inspires the Black Knights to fight honorably and not target civilians. In their public debut, he leads them in saving the victims of a hotel hijacking as a show of good will to the public.
-Kirihara called him a true enemy of Britannia
-He saves Tohdoh, a leader of the JLF, from execution
-Saved Black Knights from execution
-Formed the UFN, whose purpose is to liberate Japan
Schneizel (Their arch-enemy and also the emperor's son): Yeah...but he's the Emperor's son
BN: WHAAAAAAT??? FUCK HIM! HE'S OUR ENEMY
The real joke is that the Black Knights thought they would be able to hold japan against the inevitable Britannia retaking for a single day without Zero.
I get why the Black Knights wouldnt trust Lelouch after this. Especially with the recording from the Kururugi Shrine. But the thing that always makes me just blink very slowly in confusion is the fact that Tohdoh just... went along with the crowd?
Tohdoh is one of the few characters within the Japanese cast who actually knows Lelouch, and knows about him and Nunnally being left in Japan with the Kururugis. He was there at the Kururugi Shrine. You would think that Tohdoh would have something to say about Lelouch's circumstances, the same way that Lord Kirihara did.
That also is something that disappoints me dearly about R2 of code geass. This was a huge missed opportunity. It could have shown Todoh opposing this by showing a flash back to where he grows somewhat fond of Lelouch when he was younger and became friends with Suzaku. He could have been a bigger player in the entire story considering the fact that he is connected with both sides in some way. He knows Suzaku, but also knows Lelouch and Nunally. But this is never brought up in the story at all. Just another part of R2 failing.
That recording was manipulated, omitting where Suzaku called Lelouch's claim into doubt.
@@mohammedganai9636 and you are ommiting the fact that the part where suzaku calls lelouch's claims into doubt is...his own internal dialogue, which we hear because we are the audience...
@@teiull9388 Whether or not that's the case, Schneizel only played the part where Lelouch says "I gave the order".
Besides, Ohgi gets away with a lot of crap himself, like not taking it up with the UFN, and his whole business with Villetta, who 1) was an enemy soldier, 2) Ohgi had let his guard down in front of her and let her incapacitate him during the Black Rebellion, which helped weaken the BKs 3) she was responsible for keeping Lelouch under surveillance, and 4) Ohgi himself went AWOL for just episodes earlier. And yet she gets the happiest ending. She is the biggest grifter. But I digress.
'Recorded conversation'
Okay, they live in a world capable of producing mechs of very high technology as well as people that has a wide vocal range. A recording is not enough. As for the Ohgi part, it's like a friend saying another friend is bad. Both worked with them and lead them, how come one weighs more?(when the other actually brought more in the table). The last bit is that the whole fiasco was brought up by an enemy.
Literally sakoyo used a mask and voice as lelouch
Insane how Ohgi "bargained" for Japan in return for the betrayal. Like Britannia was able to keep it from them at that point. Dude might as well have asked for the moon for all Schneizel was able to give.
Why does everyone ignore that they didn't just betray Zero, they confronted him and demanded a explanation to which Zero laughed and called them fools for taking so long to figure it out.
At that point he didn't have a choice. They expected a civil explanation when they were pointing guns at him. He was also trying to protect kallen from dying with him.
Lelouch not only saw soldiers pointing guns at him up there but also Schneizel, so he knew that he had basically no chance of convincing them.
He was also basically trying to commit suicide because he thought Nunnally was dead. He WANTED them to kill him. Do you remember the scene directly after Rolo saves him? He was fucking pissed Rolo saved him and it was only after he died that Lelouch chilled out a bit. In short
1: He knew the writing was on the wall when the Black Knights confronted him. Especially after he sees Schniezel behind them, realizing that he had no chance to convince them otherwise.
2: He was in a terrible mental state, which is explained in the scenes leading up to the betrayal, because Kallen didn't want to go fetch him knowing how upset he was over Nunnally's "Death".
3: He was being deliberately antagonistic towards them to try and provoke them to attack, in fact, he seems almost relieved when they finally raise their weapons to fire at him. He's particularly hostile to Kallen because he doesn't want her to go down with him, knowing that she was gladly die for him.
@@Aleph3575 yup THIS
on a gunpoint? with the enemy on their side? you don't call that a betrayal?
There is always some points that make me salty about and it makes me think that the black knights are sometimes stupid and could easily be manipulated
1. How can they believe an enemy Commander that easily? He just revealed them what is geass and what its potential capability. They just accept that it is true. Yes he show them some proofs that zero is using it but they didn't give much thought that he could also probably using it.
2. Ohgi and Veletta backing up the claims against zero. Ohgi is literally having a relationship with a britanian officer. If they didn't know she is not part of the military its kinda ok but at that point its kinda pretty out in the open that she is part of the enemy forces. Zero being a banished prince that has a grudge for britania i bad but Ohgi banging a britanian officer that most likely killed their own comrades is fine?
3. How can they just switch sides with just a blink of an eye?---Yes what Schniezel says could all be true. But is this really the right time to doubt our leader? I mean if its true that he is a prince that means nunally which he wants to capture alive is most likely his sister that just a few moments ago got nuked and by the looks of it he really was not in composure right now. Shouldn't we deal with it after the enemy leaves our premises and not make them watch as we settle it up ourselves?
Why none of them think any of this? Instead they just you know what lets betray him right here right now and why not make Schniezel watch so he can see how easily we turn against each other and forget that britania is our true enemy in an instant
On top of all that….he betrayed us………so fucking what! All of them would have been dead many times over. He fights using realistic ideology not fever dreams that are impossible to achieve. He sacrificed a few lives to save ALL of area 11, and they feel it’s horrible that he’s royalty. They don’t bother to think about the fact that
1. He hates the emperor
2. He willingly executed his own brother to provide ample opportunity for a real resistance
3. He provided everything for them
4. He is former royalty
@@michaelbracho3956 that former is especially true because it means that he is not royalty at all and that means he isn’t a Britannian prince
@@bayarsejar5831 still born as a royal, but seriously, I always hated the black knights. They never thought more than the next move and always failed to see past their pointless pride to see the bigger picture.
@@michaelbracho3956 but he has lived half his life in Japan and he renounced his right to the throne
@@bayarsejar5831 I’m well aware. However by the strongest of the fittest mentality, him taking the throne by force is viable.
Ohgi really trusted an enemy woman more than his own long-time leader
FR he is a simp 💀
He was suspicious of Zero even in R1, he just needed someone to confirm his suspicions so he can feel better about himself when he inevitably turned.
I am very happy that people still talk about this anime so many years later.
If you know Japanese, you should check out this event in the game Super Robot Wars Z2: Sansei Hen.
There is actually an alternate secret route where you can make the Black Knights thrust Zero, and has Wufei Chang from Gundam Wing completely break down Sneitzel arguments (one of the most hilarious ones being that after the Black Knights accepted help from Newtypes, Supersoldiers, Gods reincarnated into Super Robots and even more, Zero's Geass is really not exactly a new experience for them)
Wu Fei even calls out Ohgi's horny ass on that too
When it comes to this moment, I do agree that it’s Schneizel’s scene all the way, as he’s able to move his opponents into a position where they’ll willing to betray their leader, his greatest threat to his own plans, with ease. However, while you do raise some good points as to why the Black Knights were already in a position where their trust in their leader was shaky, I still believe them foolish for four primary reasons.
(1) The source of the information in question, while Schneizel does reveal truths, if only half truths, the fact of the matter is he’s an extremely biased source, he is the enemy commander who hours before they were fighting for control for Japan. Cornelia was their primary antagonist in R1 while Viletta's a Britannian spy who was once a member of the purists.
(2) The information itself is also suspect as I first watched this when I was around 13-14 and even I picked up on the fact that Schneizel never technically gave them evidence of anything, nothing concreate anyway as all he has is suspicions and theories, sure Cornelia and Viletta can back that up but neither can actually prove their claims. The recording was shaky at best as voice changing tech is a thing in this world. Honestly, its why I think they never revealed geass to the UFN as they realized after the betrayal that they got had as like Diethard points out, they’ll be called mad if they tried as they have nothing to prove their claims.
(3) The people in the room as Tohdoh has met the boy, he was present when Lelouch and his sister first arrived at the Kururugi shrine. They spent nearly a year there so surely he either learned more about him, or had a conversation with him so while he can think Lelouch was using them, he would also know that his anger and his drive to defeat Britannia is very much real, and that drive is rooted in his love for his sister who as far as they know, is now dead. At the very least, he should have been the one most willing to hear Zero out, to see what has become of the frail boy with a fire in his eyes he met 8 years prior.
(4) Lastly, there was the FLEIJA strike and while Schneizel would leave out the part where he designed a situation where Lelouch wouldn’t believe Suzaku even had such a weapon, even if informed of it beforehand, why would he think Suzaku would use it? Think about it, he’s threatening to wipe out a Britannian city, filled with mainly Britannian civilians, just to keep it out of Black Knight hands, that’s crazy. That’s the kind of threat a despot would make and while Suzaku had fallen quite a bit, could any of them even imagined him doing that he did?
Quite frankly, they weren’t thinking straight as even when they confronted Zero in the hanger, it was clear that they weren’t willing to listen to him, to let him defend himself as they had already decided he was guilty as even when Kallen pleaded for them to just hear his side of the story, they accused her of being under his control and never lowered their guns, making it clear that they would have shot through her to get to him.
What was kinda sad, at least to me, was that we never for to see Xingke’s reaction to this as he never liked or trusted Zero either, especially after he put a gun to his empress’ head, however he was the most wary of Schneizel and would no doubt call their intelligence into question for buying his claims so completely that they’ll betray their leader without trail or question.
The fact they didnt even bother trying to listen to Lelouch/Zero's side of the story angers me to this day.
you forgot the old man who saw zero's face and proclaimed to the black nights that ZERO's identity must remain unknown no matter what and that they can be certain that Zero is a mortal enemy of Brittiana and that he wouldn't betray you. if anyone remembered this fact during the discussion it would have been resolved ino.
While I admit the Black Knight's betrayal was a masterstroke on Schneizel's part, the one main reason for his success was that the BK's forgot one thing about Zero: They need him. Throughout R1 and R2, we see that without Zero, the Black Knights were nothing. Before they were the Black Knights, they were just a miserable rebel group on its last legs. If not for Lelouch, they would've met their end at Shinjuku. When Zero went missing during the Black Rebellion, the BKs were utterly stomped. On the day the BKs leadership and surviving members were to be executed, it was Zero who saved their lives. Time and time again, it becomes clearer that Zero was what made the Black Knights so effective. Without him, they're just hilariously pathetic.
It was Schneizel's cunning manipulation that turned the Black Knights on their founder and leader, but if they had just stopped and remembered that Zero saved their lives on numerous occasions, and that it was Zero who was the reason for the Black Knights' existence, then Lelouch would've still had control over them.
I've always wpndered what would have happened if Kallen had been present, the one who knew he was lelouch, who knew about his geass and who knew him the best. Obviously they would assume she'd be geass'd but she was loved or respected by pretty much everyone in the Black knights, her opinion would probably have more impact than Ohgis.
And later, after betrayal, they don't give a flying frack what she thinks. I doubt they would pay any attention before.
Our ace opinions, without which we couldn't achieve that much, just brushed aside. Hell, BK were about to murder her when she was with Lelouch in that hangar. Truly, scum of the scum.
I can't really fault them for doubting Lelouch (even if I think they believed Schneizel, who came talking about magic and shit, too easily). He did had a lot of faults to his side.
But, going from deciding to not trust the guy, that can manipulate minds to the point that the enemy (who had them dominated) proposes to negotiate with them, to giving him to the prince of the enemy country (that orders genocide like nothing) and is holding this meeting with the threat of a nuke onboard ...
I still can't say the Black Knights weren't pretty Stupid!
Late reply, but I always felt it would have been a way better scene if Schneizal simply fed them dome bred crumbs, which over the course of time, caused Discord and an eventual internal confrontation with Zero.
Instead, they basically instantly believed Schneizal at face value, and turned on Zero on a dime with very little push. Making them all look extremely cheap with their loyalties and ungrateful. Not to mention, highly unintelligent to just immediately believe your worst enemy who was clearly trying to get rid of your biggest ace in the hole in Zero.
I felt this scene severely dropped the liability of almost all the Black Knights into the gutter, and it never recovered by the end of the show 😪
The funniest thing to me is, after their betrayal, he solos the combined forces of The Black Knights and Britannia. From their perspective, they betrayed him, he gave his villain monologue, and then escaped, then all of a sudden they start losing to his forces the next time they hear of him. And even after all of that, they STILL try to fight him later on and lose AGAIN. I'm sorry, but his initial forces were only ever cannon fodder for dealing with Britannia's stronger pieces. Without Zero at the helm, The Black Knights are a total joke of a military. I fully believe that if the roles were reversed and Lelouch was fighting for Britannia, he would be able to pick them off one by one with minimal effort Batman style and have them admitting defeat before the last soldier fell. Which we actually get to almost see later on when Lelouch fights Schneizel and the Black Knight forces are almost wiped out immediately. I truly don't know what they expected to happen when they decided to betray their galaxy brain of a leader who was the ONLY reason they were even stalemating with Britannia.
I kinda feel like the black knights dumbness was a given. I mean they followed a random voice on a radio and it just kept working
I mean that random ass voice did get them to the closest they'll ever be free people and they said the fuck themselves by siding with the literal second Prince of their enemy Nation
So on the files you questioned a bit, some of them are probably guesses. Like for Shirley, I highly doubt Schniezel actually knew about the memory stuff, but her death was suspicious enough that he could claim that was Zero and no one can really say he's wrong. We also know he's wrong about the general as that was just a mine, and while he was right about Kusakabe being Geass'd I'd bet he was actually claiming Lelouch made him do the hotel jacking, not the death thing.
Besides that you do bring up a lot of good points, and one point you don't mention that also helps is that Kaguya, Xing-ke, and Rakshata aren't there, none of whom I think would have fallen for that. Kaguya is to loyal to not fight it more, Xing-ke is smart enough to at least try and argue back, and Rakshata would question the details to much for him to keep his act of knowing everything.
Still I maintain Tohdoh and Diethardt should have had more of a resistance. Schniezel has no proof and Ohgi's proof is Villetta, also unreliable.
As a final note though, a "what if" most of Zero's actions are reactions, I doubt Lelouch planned for all of R1 to take less than 2 full months, we even see that when he wasn't reacting to Cornelia's big moves the Black Knights were mostly running drug busts and such. So I wonder if he got his presumably slower schedule, if he could have built more trust and avoided all if this.
He wasn't wrong about the General, the guy in the file was the one who stabbed himself during the Sakuradite meeting hijacking from Lelouch's Geass. The guy on the ship was a different person.
@@DBZHGWgamer that is why I said Katase right after as a completely different person. Boat guy and Katase aren't the same, I literally wrote that if you actually read my comment. Did I just get the title wrong, did you misread or what?
And that makes sense thankfully the recap movies fixed that by having Ohgi and Tamaki still willing to hear out Lelouch not believing he would see them as pawns and with Schniezels attendant instead of Todoh ordering the shooting really hits home that they atleast were willing to still trust and hear his side of things.
@@aozorahaou2643 Except Schiezel and co were still IN THE ROOM for no reason, AND they still held him at gunpoint to question him, not to mention they still accepted dumb evidence to begin with.
@@nahte123456 Ok, atleast they attempted to fix it, but we gotta admit emotions were high after Suzaku nuked the Tokyo Settlement and Lelouch acted irradical in aftermath and locked himself in his room.
That's the thing about the Geass conversations, their doubts could have been quickly used in favor of Zero if they thought about for a moment...
"If Zero has such a phenomenal power, and he used it on us, it would make no sense how we could be doubting him or thinking of betraying him right now. If we were all truly under the control of his supposed Geass power, we wouldn't have the capacity to even think of betrayal. We'd be under his complete control! With unwavering loyalty, there's no way that he used his power on us, and didn't decide to control us anyway he saw fit."
The thing is how could they easily Betrayed Lelouch when lelouch Have provided significant result for them, the fact that they were able to negotiate and compramise with Schneizel at all is thanks to lelouch, its shouldnt even matter whether or not Lelouch have used them or not as again If not for lelouch even kallen have stated that They would have all been dead back in shinjuku and that black knights wouldnt even be a thing, No UFN, No alliance with the Chinese Federation, Shinke would have been Killed by the Eunuchs along with the little girl empress, Todoh's own Liberation army would have been wiped out by Cornelia , yes lelouch used them as disposable pawn for his own gain, But they trusted lelouch not because of lelouch in the first place but rather because lelouch provides them victories that They couldn't have themselves, , so why suddenly felt that they were personally betrayed when the entire rebellion Is practically for each and everyones own gain?
My one and only gripe is that why is anyone listening to Ohgi which he is CLEARLY bias? He is walking in with Viletta, an enemy general, who he is clearly trying to bang super hard. Also despite everything Zero was still there best bet at freedom.
The only real dumb thing IMO was trusting Schneizel; They were well within their rights to distrust Zero, especially after the stunt he pulled in the First Rebellion.
It was probably best that Kallen wasn’t there Lelouch’s strongest warrior and probably best defender of character would’ve been branded a traitor, in the eyes of her comrades, especially if some of the Black Knights know how she feels about Zero romantically and especially since she’s been hit with Geass
I appreciate you took the time to analyze how this scene works in a vaccum, because the play-by-play retelling is very coherent and interesting, but there's lots of factors that do point to the Black Knight leadership just not holding up well here. However, I also agree that this is *Schneizel's scene*, because the man says the things he needs his enemies to hear to shake Lelouch's position, and more importantly, *doesnt say* the things he shouldn't to avoid shaking his own position.
For example, he only presents Lelouch's supposed supernatural prowess and its visible effect on the BK's many suspicions about Zero, but does not bring attention to weird Geass stuff that happens *outside* the scope of Zero. If someone had brought up the question of "How do we know YOU don't have a similar power?" then the discussion could have been derailed or skewed towards Geass, something that nobody on Schneizel's side has truly concrete information on. This could have led to Cornelia letting slip something about the Geass Cult, which could have raised MASSIVE questions regarding Britannia's own involvement with Geass and would have definitely made Schneizel look VERY sus.
Another one is that they demand Schneizel do something about Japan's freedom being granted to them. I don't remember enough of whatever they mention on Britannia's policies but as far as I remember short of the Emperor himself, only the Knight of One could achieve something close to it by the special right granted to them, otherwise if they wanted to be free they would either have to hope Schneizel weedled the concession out of the Emperor or put him on the throne and hope he sticks to his promise...neither of which are arrangements I would rely on a known political mastermind like Schneizel to hold true to when the man has everything to gain and basically nothing to lose from my cooperation. Plus, they only ask for JAPAN, and leave the rest of the UN out to dry, even though they're supposed to represent the entire UN. If that deal DID go through it would have just turned into a massive political SNAFU that would have destabilized Britannia's enemies, potentially letting them finish the worldwide conquest.
There's probably other things I'm not thinking about, but the one that still makes me facepalm even to this day is...Oghi shows up with a Britannian agent backing him up, one he goes on to be quite cozy with. Nobody is seen questioning him on this then or later on. Everyone gets caught up in the possibility of being mind controlled by Zero that nobody stopped to think about the possibility of Oghi himself having been subverted by the oldest mind game in the book. This is also what gets anime Oghi hated by a significant portion of the fanbase since he basically gets off scot free in the ending. At least movie Oghi regretted it terribly (although to be fair we don't see what Oghi thinks post-Requiem in the anime either).
Lelouch: Just as planned. Now I'll only have Suzaku to know my plan.
10:55 please tell me youre not a black guy because that was for sure a fire alarm beep
In your heart you know the truth
The funny thing is once he got outed as a Geass user, that only made him stronger because he doesn't need to hide his use now.
Once the Black Knights were "out of the way" he was able to fire off Geass after Geass. Schneizel did the same thing with FLEIJAs and with more sincerity
The massacre was literally the biggest reason why they betrayed Zero. Everything else just add up to their suspicions.
Lelouch: Oh c'mon how much longer are you gonna be mad about that?
Cornelia: You killed our sister. Probably at least a while!
Lelouch: I said I was sorry!
Cornelia: No! You didn't!
@@georgeprchal3924 when reading that I heard it in PurpleEyes voices.
@@YGeo as God intended.
@@georgeprchal3924 Lelouch: Sorry? How about you feel sorry for me?!
@@georgeprchal3924 funny because Cornelia killed thousands of innocent japanese
Lelouch: Builds Japan back together, liberated most of the Japanese people, made the super united state, and gathered enough force to fight against the Great Britannia Empire.
Meanwhile the Black Knights after hearing magic mumbo jumbo from the leader of their arch nemesis, and right after getting nuked by them: "Zero used us and betrayed our trust!"
The "evidence" they provided can be easily faked since most of them are from major decisive conflicts between the two factions, and like you said in the video some couldn't possibly be traced since they either completely forgets about the geass as commanded, or they are such a minor character they couldn't have possibly known. Moreover, if any normal logical thinking was involved, if Zero really had magical mind control powers, why wasn't everyone mind controlled by him already if he was so untrustworthy? "Instead of trusting the person leading us to victory, let's trust the dude who has been oppressing us for decades and literally just nuked us." Certified bruh moment right there.
It's all Ohgi's fault.
It's strange how they didn't trust zero mainly because he isn't japanese. Yet they trust the the Britannian who is not only the brother of zero but is just as a mastermind as Lelouch.
Because they are reetraded, that is why. Lelouch called them "pawns" because that is all what they are.
Ah, but Schneizel isn’t wearing a mask - he’s being honest about who he is (in their eyes). And Zero has been their trusted leader. His lies and “betrayal” sting worse because they believed in him. They reacted emotionally rather than rationally
@@Pizzellen word
thank you for making this video on episode 19 Ive always wanted someone to dive deep into this episode as this always bothered me
The dumb part is that the Black Knights didn't realize that if they were under the power of Geass, then they wouldn't be able to question Zero. They would be mindless slaves to his will. The fact that they are able to question Lelouch should be proof they aren't under a slave Geass.
The unname butler from early episodes of Code Geass is the one who made Lelouch’s Zero outfit.
Regarding the school teacher and how did they have a data on him, remember that Violeta is working at the OSI in the beginning of season 2 and probably v2 have recorded those conflicts in schools that might have kept by Charles and schnizel grabs or get intel into.
That doesn't explain how they know about a Geass event from before the OSI was founded
@@takatotakasui8307 it might be in the records of v2. Should also consider that OSI was put into ashford academy to lure out c2 while monitoring lelouch as a bait. Even though Lelouch have managed to put the OSI in ashford under his command, anyone from the royale family could just get intel and make an assumption, specially Schnizel a very intelligent man. He might bluff a way out of those situations to make an assumption. Also Schinzel's desperate move to meet the black knights right in their fortress means he is well prepared everything favoring him. Got to give him a credit tho, when he understood everything, he have taken actions immediately that causes the black knights to make the wrong decision ever
Thank you for captions!!!
Basically they desire to kill there own commander while they're at war with biggest empire in the world in less than 5 minute with these reason
- Some paper information and voice record of there commander talking to "Enemy" Ace pilot from "Enemy" side which easily to make them up
- Some word from "Prince" and "Princess" of "Enemy" side telling you that your commander is also "Prince" that possess some kind of magical power
- Some word from "Simp" who actually one of chief staff in your side but take some word from "Enemy" chick that he bang to convince the other chief staff to betray there commander
From all these reason the clowns desire to kill the guy who carry them from the point of being group execution to the point that they are operation that rivalry britania army.
Yeah, the Black Knights are pretty stupid and they wouldn't have gone anywhere without Zero. They betrayed Lelouch without even giving him a second to explain himself or his actions, this guy pulled them up from being street level thugs and made them worldleaders but he'd probably disingenious, sure that makes us sound smart, let's not even give him a second to explain himself. And in the end, he and Suzaku had to babysit them and fix society for them.
Betraying Zero for Japan should make them all international criminals. The black knights at that time were the military for a international coalition. NOT a group solely liberating Japan.
Morally and legally, questioning and even distancing themselves from Zero makes sense. Arresting/detaining him and seeking answers makes sense.
Trading away the only person that can beat Britanian long-term for a land you can't hold for more than a decade and betraying every single other country on the planet is literally the worse move possible.
There r 2 things to consider fir the 3rd thing u mentioned. 1, from everyone's else's eyes, Lelouch was tge one to instigate the genocide on Japan by using geass on euphie. So whatever the end goal was, it would be extremely hard to trust someone who would easily sacrifice that much in an instant. Also, ogie only accepted, after making a deal to return Japan. Although not the smartest move against the enemy, u can see how tge points of what Lelouch is viewed as ties together to the actions if tge black knights.
@@ghhbpolo Only that it wasnt a genocide but a massacre and considering what britannia had done to japan prior, a very small one to boot and not exactly out of line with what the royal family was doing overall. Also all the black knights present would be long dead without zeros intervention while the guy who they are listening to has actually been trying to kill them, even using WMDs! Then theres the bit that their only "proof" is the enemy leader going "trust me bro, that zero guy? Totaly has magical mind control powers.. and he totaly could have used it on all of you! I got these papers here with text and stuff" and their own comrade waltzing in with an enemy agent he has been secretly banging behind their backs for god knows how long going "yeah totaly trust the enemy guys... my britannian girlfriend who was part of the purist faction confirms all of this". Not even once considering that if what THE ENEMY LEADER tells you is true.. you wouldnt even be able to THINK about betraying Zero because you know.. magical mind control powers...
These guys arent just clowns, they are the entire circus...
Also, Schinzel might base his records with the nature of and individual. Meaning to say, if it is against his/her values, they might assume that a certain person have geass.
Black knights be like zero betrayed us! He's a prince of Britannia. Let's go join the other prince of Britannia instead!
Now I want to see what you think would've happened if Lelouch was at the meeting.
That old guy from season 1, he's the person on whom lelouch have ordered to make a costume for zero.
I love ur videos so much (If u want and can) Continue with the great job
I was literally laughing when they were so quickly turned against him. Like bruh y’all are immediately siding with Britannia😭😭😭 all part of Lelouch plan anyway. The GOAT
5:58 not a teacher, but man in the mall who triggered fire alarm in episode 3.
There was obviously an investigation on who was the person who failed Secret Intelligence operation that day.
Love your videos!
Great dive in. This information goes over many peoples heads, including my own. I just had to accept it as fact, in that hanger, that the jig was up.
I was never fond of this sudden betrayal because it makes no sense for them.
If I was in their position, even if I believed everything Schneizel said about Lelouche and the very existence of Geas - which is a monumental if - I'd still much rather take my chances with Lelouche than with Schneizel. I'd probably celebrate the Geas, since Zero clearly used it to the benefit of the black knights so far, conjuring up victories where they seemed impossible otherwise.
They can clearly see the difference of what they are with and without Zero from the period when they were without Zero between seasons. They were nothing without him and couldn't get anything done really until they got him back.
But with Zero and his Geas they gained more than they ever dared to hope, while Schneizel and his country are proofen guilty of multiple massacres and came close to annihilating the black knights multiple times.
Even the catalogue about the people they suspect have been mind controlled reads more like a advertisement reel for why they should side with Zero, since the vast majority of cases were a massive help to the Black Knights. Not to mention the simple fact that without Zero, every single one of them would either be dead or in prison on top of many civilians whom the Britanians tried to slaughter, but Zero stopped.
Even if I knew for sure that Zero would mind-control me, I'd still rather take my chances with the guy who saved tens of thousands of civilians over the Schneizel, who is well known to have lots of blood on his hands.
Even if they could be convinced to turn on Zero, why would they EVER side with Schneizel of all people? Someone who demonstrated honour and mercy like Cornelia maybe, but never ever Schneizel!
Not to mention that nobody thought of a very fundamental argument: If Lelouche can mind-control everyone at will as Schneizel claims, then why didn't he do that to them? Surely if he was controlling them, they would not be able to plot against him now, which near enough proofs he hasn't used his power on them, even when there were occasions when it would have benefited him.
At this point they have not even the slightest indication he ever used his Geas on any of them, only that he used it on their enemies for the benefit of the Black Knights.
But the most engregious issue to me is that their decision is unanimous (except for Kallen). Not a single person decides to either side with Lelouche or quite the Black Knights in protest over them allying themselves to their worst enemy Schneizel. This feels has always felt to me like the authors either were out of ideas, patience or time to make the betreyal make sense. They needed to have everyone turn on Lelouche for the story, so they made it happen not because it made sense but because the plot required it.
And that is really sad. Instead of coming off as the genius move by Schneizel it should be to build him up, it comes off as just plot armour and "because the plot says so" instead.
Overall the series is still a masterpiece and the ending makes this plothole kinda-sorta worth it I guess... but it's still a blemish on the series overall.
You forgot to mention the slaughter off the geass order and the information given to todo about the kids they were forced to kill
Pretty well done. I'm sticking around for more.
Was honestly disgusted with them all after that. It's a shame they get to survive till the end
They were pretty easy to convince that geass essentially magic exists
When Ohgi comes in, they have all proof from Viletta and Cornelia (she even says it) and they even have been at the geass cult themselves.
I adore your Code Geass analysis videos❤️
Edit: it was so complicated to me but I love how you break things down.
I was wondering if you could a breakdown of the Xenosaga series? If you consider it but it’s too much of a hassle, i’ll donate $100 to your patreon if you do, if you have one, to give some motivation.
That’s how much I want this series done
A friend of mine actually just recommended Xenosaga. I don't know if I can promise any deep insights, but I'll definitely look into it! In the meantime, feel free to check out www.patreon.com/KatoYT. We'd love to have you in the Discord server!
@@KatoBeyond 😍 Please and thank you! Let me know if it feels like a bit to chew on when you do! Any level of analysis is always welcome and will be much appreciated!
I also will check out your patreon! Been watching your vids for awhile now anyway!
Edit: just tried to sign up but it says I already have a patreon?🤷🏽♀️
ohgi trusting schniezel reminds me of how aizawa trusted near against light
after watching your vid....its time for me to watch the whole season for the 10th time maybe :) such an amazing story