Jaime looking more king like than Robert may or may not be Faux-shadowing. It works really well for the story as published, even if an original story plan was different. It underlines how fat, shabby and un-king like Robert has become, and how regal and king like the Lannisters appear as a whole, including Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey (Tyrion excepted of course). This suits the Lannisters as they are so wealthy and powerful and are clearly trying to take over the realm as much as possible. Their golden royal looks add to their power. But it also teaches us that outer appearance does not necessarily match inner virtue (a central theme of the books) - as we immediately see with incest and attempted infanticide. It is true that Jaime’s redemption arc might undermine this initial lesson somewhat, but that is for much later when more nuance can be added (plus Jaime’s perfect looks have been marred by then). For this opening scene setting sequence and the early part of the story, the observation that Jaime LOOKS like he embodies kingly virtue is perfect.
On others (Others?) manipulating Ned: he is slow to make decisions, but as it's pointed out he was a soldier and trained to follow. I think his instinct is always to follow orders, and that's even apparent when he gives them. While Rickard was adaptable and and thought in the moment, Ned constantly looks for someone or something to follow, even if its his own code.
1:32:54 They aren't trying to marry Sansa to the Lannisters. Joffrey as far as they know at that point is Roberts son and a Baratheon. Regardless to his mother pushing the Lannister identity his father is the more important parent.
In going over Cat 2 a detail occurred to me with some gross implications. Proceeding on the fact that we know Lysa wrote this letter on Littlefinger’s request, we can assume that Petyr would vet the letter before they sent it. However, it is written in the Tully sisters’s secret code. Would Littlefinger really go through with a plot this risky without being able to read the letter himself? He probably knows the code. Who knows how many of the sisters’s secrets he is privy to!!
great point about "fauxshadowing": i used to think agot was the most important book in regards to foreshadowing (still might be), but now I'm more weary of it leading nowhere
About Mance at that feast: he didn't play there The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."
The last bit in Arya I where she ends up facing her mother instead of just Septa Mordane may be foreshadowing Arya's potential storyline of her meeting Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands when she comes back to Westeros. Lot's of foreshadowing that Arya will be the one to give LS the gift of mercy, which inadvertently will be placing them at odds of one another.
Yes show Cersie is easily one of the most beautiful women in the whole known world. The comics that have Cersie in them have her looking pretty dang good 😂 Im surprised you guys don't talk about the comics as much, they follow the books exactly like they are written, but they add awesome pictures of what's going on. I think the comics are up to Clash Of Kings now.
I think that was his suggestion. It is a reference to the factions in the former inter-Targaryen conflict (the Dance of Dragons), and as such foreshadows that Tyrion will be somehow caught between the factions in the upcoming inter-Targaryen conflict (Dany, Jon, fAegon).
The Ice Dragon with Adara... this story takes place during the first Dance of Dragons. She commented on their black and green colors often. Her uncle was sporting green and black on a green Dragon.
Arya may not become Queen, but she is a princess, and she also listens to her subjects. After all her nickname is "Arya Underfoot". She also recalls how she loved to listen to the men Ned would place at his table.
It is directly about the other Dire Wolves, but Aziz is suggesting that it is word play by GRRM, so could also be read as (unintentionally by Jon) referring to the Others/White Walkers.
Great video guys! I’m glad these are here to make my re-read feel more thorough. just a quick opinion (hot take?) I absolutely *HATE* the Tyrion Targaryen theory. I hate it so god-damned much. There is no other fan-theory I would be more disappointed and upset by, if it turned out true.
@@fuzzydunlop7928 Aziz was talking about the original outline was to have Catelyn head north of the wall. But her path changed a bit to her with the brotherhood without banners. Beric is the only one we've seen revived besides Catelyn (i think). Wouldn't it be bittersweet for her to revive Jon so he can avenge Robb and protect the Sansa & Arya.
@@fuzzydunlop7928 Yeah, she treated Jon like crap his whole life because of a noble lie Ned told. If she believes Rickon & Bran are dead that leaves only Jon as an option to save his sisters.
@@kijanigolkosh9532 Hmmm, if there were some way she KNEW what the truth was and THEN did that, I could see that actually being really touching but just doing it to save the Starks - I mean, she's a Tully. She's always pretty much been a Tully and she's been vindictive about her husband's bastard, and we know Stoneheart is twice as vicious as Cat. Hell - Lady Stoneheart might be the character to want to kill Jon just because of that bitterness. lol
The misspelling of Daeron is just more evidence to me that this is a fantasy version of history. I’m not saying it was deliberate, just that George is content to leave these mistakes because any student of history will tell you that standardised spelling is a relatively modern concept that was not relevant in the pre_modern period, let alone the dark ages.
2:16:00 yeah, we do start to think Tyrion is pretty alright- and you did mention that the perception of the honorable house Starks does start to shift; BUT I WILL NOT SIT QUIETLY WHEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SLANDER CATELYN. I cannot stand her
There is that 6 again. Puppies, rubies. Lost in the snow, and then found; lost in the water and then found. Maybe 6 is rare so that we make this connection.
Has anyone here ever read the *Comic Books* of *A Song Of Ice And Fire?* they are pretty awesome... they follow the books exactly word for word... some of the pictures drawn are awesome, they do a great job of painting the image of what's going on in the book. I don't think they are for every book, only *Clash of Kings* from what I seen. I wish they had comics for *A Game Of Thrones* but it seems the only ones being released are the ones for *A Clash Of Kings*
Aziz making the point about Ned Stark imagrey @1:33:34 I was similarly confused by this obvious yet unclear metaphor/symbolism... Petition to rename the series "a song of ice and fire and nudity" 😂
On FAegon, the fact that the series was supposed to be a trilogy to begin with, and that GOT through SOS were supposed to be the first book is what convinces me that he was going to be a part of it from the beginning. He's introduced at what would have been the second book in the trilogy as a counter to Dany. He was raised in safety, her in fear. He was raised by Westerosi, she was 'raised' by her brother. He is confident to the point of arrogance, she's humble to the point of being self-defacing. He comes with the Blackfyre army (and probably sword,) she comes with the Black Dread Reborn. And no, Robert is not Aerys reborn, but Aegon the Unworthy. I also don't see a Jon vs Dany conflict outside of having to choose between Dany and FAegon. Since Westeros only counts it as incest when the relationship happens within the nuclear family, Jon won't have a problem marrying Dany. No, the problem will come with FAegon, who is supposedly Jon's older brother. He will have the throne, but he is arrogant and dishonorable. Dany is the queen chosen by her subjects and deserves the throne. Where does Jon fall in that? Honor and duty say FAegon, but love and compassion say Dany. Something I find interesting is that Cat doesn't mind that Ned was supposedly unfaithful, but that he brought Ned home with him. What do you suppose that says about her?
Timing doesn't make sense. If Jon was conceived at the Tourney, he would clearly be older than Robb, but he's a little younger. If he had been conceived the next time, he'd be even younger than he actually is.
Describing Joffrey, “A thick tangle of blonde curls dropped down past his golden CHOKER and high velvet collar.”
Oh come on!!! Lol
9:45 oh my god Catelyn is our fish out of water character.
Jaime looking more king like than Robert may or may not be Faux-shadowing. It works really well for the story as published, even if an original story plan was different. It underlines how fat, shabby and un-king like Robert has become, and how regal and king like the Lannisters appear as a whole, including Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey (Tyrion excepted of course). This suits the Lannisters as they are so wealthy and powerful and are clearly trying to take over the realm as much as possible. Their golden royal looks add to their power. But it also teaches us that outer appearance does not necessarily match inner virtue (a central theme of the books) - as we immediately see with incest and attempted infanticide. It is true that Jaime’s redemption arc might undermine this initial lesson somewhat, but that is for much later when more nuance can be added (plus Jaime’s perfect looks have been marred by then). For this opening scene setting sequence and the early part of the story, the observation that Jaime LOOKS like he embodies kingly virtue is perfect.
Bran is like the Varys of Winterfell: found all the hidden passages and knows where all the little birds sleep
On others (Others?) manipulating Ned: he is slow to make decisions, but as it's pointed out he was a soldier and trained to follow. I think his instinct is always to follow orders, and that's even apparent when he gives them. While Rickard was adaptable and and thought in the moment, Ned constantly looks for someone or something to follow, even if its his own code.
There is a great theory about Lyanna and Ben by In Deep Geek and why he went to the Wall.
1:32:54 They aren't trying to marry Sansa to the Lannisters. Joffrey as far as they know at that point is Roberts son and a Baratheon. Regardless to his mother pushing the Lannister identity his father is the more important parent.
In going over Cat 2 a detail occurred to me with some gross implications. Proceeding on the fact that we know Lysa wrote this letter on Littlefinger’s request, we can assume that Petyr would vet the letter before they sent it. However, it is written in the Tully sisters’s secret code. Would Littlefinger really go through with a plot this risky without being able to read the letter himself? He probably knows the code. Who knows how many of the sisters’s secrets he is privy to!!
I’m loving the book re-reads so far!! Thanks so much History of Westeros! Appreciate all of the hard work you two but into your channel. Cheers!
great point about "fauxshadowing": i used to think agot was the most important book in regards to foreshadowing (still might be), but now I'm more weary of it leading nowhere
Love these videos! Thanks for making them!
About Mance at that feast: he didn't play there
The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."
Good catch
Thank you. I'm enjoying this journey.
The last bit in Arya I where she ends up facing her mother instead of just Septa Mordane may be foreshadowing Arya's potential storyline of her meeting Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands when she comes back to Westeros. Lot's of foreshadowing that Arya will be the one to give LS the gift of mercy, which inadvertently will be placing them at odds of one another.
Yes show Cersie is easily one of the most beautiful women in the whole known world. The comics that have Cersie in them have her looking pretty dang good 😂
Im surprised you guys don't talk about the comics as much, they follow the books exactly like they are written, but they add awesome pictures of what's going on. I think the comics are up to Clash Of Kings now.
Couldn't Tyrion eyes be a reference to the dance of dragons, the greens and the blacks.
I think that was his suggestion. It is a reference to the factions in the former inter-Targaryen conflict (the Dance of Dragons), and as such foreshadows that Tyrion will be somehow caught between the factions in the upcoming inter-Targaryen conflict (Dany, Jon, fAegon).
Thanks for doing these livestreams! I learn so much every time 😊
Fantastic series guys, keep it up.
great content
The Ice Dragon with Adara... this story takes place during the first Dance of Dragons. She commented on their black and green colors often. Her uncle was sporting green and black on a green Dragon.
Arya may not become Queen, but she is a princess, and she also listens to her subjects. After all her nickname is "Arya Underfoot". She also recalls how she loved to listen to the men Ned would place at his table.
At 1:05 the "others" Jon is talking about is the other Dire Wolves.
It is directly about the other Dire Wolves, but Aziz is suggesting that it is word play by GRRM, so could also be read as (unintentionally by Jon) referring to the Others/White Walkers.
@@willmosse3684 I understand Aziz may be trying to add another layer, but i don't believe GRRM was. Aziz is incorrectly reaching in this case.
Artemio Flores - I think I probably agree...
@@willmosse3684 right on, thanks for even caring about my comment.
Artemio Flores - Well, chat with like minded folk is always fun 👍
Great video guys! I’m glad these are here to make my re-read feel more thorough.
just a quick opinion (hot take?) I absolutely *HATE* the Tyrion Targaryen theory. I hate it so god-damned much. There is no other fan-theory I would be more disappointed and upset by, if it turned out true.
These sitcom style chapter titles in the timestamps are amazing
EDIT: There is a Hodor vs Kramer hold the door joke in here somewhere...
With the talk of the original Stoneheart plot was going north of the wall, could Lady Stoneheart be the one who will revive Jon?
Where did you get this idea?
@@fuzzydunlop7928 Aziz was talking about the original outline was to have Catelyn head north of the wall. But her path changed a bit to her with the brotherhood without banners. Beric is the only one we've seen revived besides Catelyn (i think). Wouldn't it be bittersweet for her to revive Jon so he can avenge Robb and protect the Sansa & Arya.
@@kijanigolkosh9532 Ahhhh, I see - giving up her life the same way Beric gave up his life for Cat?
@@fuzzydunlop7928 Yeah, she treated Jon like crap his whole life because of a noble lie Ned told. If she believes Rickon & Bran are dead that leaves only Jon as an option to save his sisters.
@@kijanigolkosh9532 Hmmm, if there were some way she KNEW what the truth was and THEN did that, I could see that actually being really touching but just doing it to save the Starks - I mean, she's a Tully. She's always pretty much been a Tully and she's been vindictive about her husband's bastard, and we know Stoneheart is twice as vicious as Cat. Hell - Lady Stoneheart might be the character to want to kill Jon just because of that bitterness. lol
The misspelling of Daeron is just more evidence to me that this is a fantasy version of history. I’m not saying it was deliberate, just that George is content to leave these mistakes because any student of history will tell you that standardised spelling is a relatively modern concept that was not relevant in the pre_modern period, let alone the dark ages.
2:16:00 yeah, we do start to think Tyrion is pretty alright- and you did mention that the perception of the honorable house Starks does start to shift; BUT I WILL NOT SIT QUIETLY WHEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SLANDER CATELYN. I cannot stand her
There is that 6 again. Puppies, rubies. Lost in the snow, and then found; lost in the water and then found. Maybe 6 is rare so that we make this connection.
Dornish lemon tree is cannon!
The Dornish have lemon trees, but what's to keep the Sealord from having one in a greenhouse?
A whole new world, and every detail Bran can see. The king won't be Jon Snow, or some blonde ho, it won't even be Dany...
Has anyone here ever read the *Comic Books* of *A Song Of Ice And Fire?* they are pretty awesome... they follow the books exactly word for word... some of the pictures drawn are awesome, they do a great job of painting the image of what's going on in the book. I don't think they are for every book, only *Clash of Kings* from what I seen. I wish they had comics for *A Game Of Thrones* but it seems the only ones being released are the ones for *A Clash Of Kings*
Is this what you wanted?
www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-Graphic-Novel-One/dp/044042321X
Aziz making the point about Ned Stark imagrey @1:33:34
I was similarly confused by this obvious yet unclear metaphor/symbolism...
Petition to rename the series "a song of ice and fire and nudity" 😂
I don't subscribe to TT but black eye, green eye, and white hair? Color of Dany's dragons.
If Robert knew the truth the rebellion still would’ve happened. He killed the Stark’s and many northern lords and sons
On FAegon, the fact that the series was supposed to be a trilogy to begin with, and that GOT through SOS were supposed to be the first book is what convinces me that he was going to be a part of it from the beginning. He's introduced at what would have been the second book in the trilogy as a counter to Dany. He was raised in safety, her in fear. He was raised by Westerosi, she was 'raised' by her brother. He is confident to the point of arrogance, she's humble to the point of being self-defacing. He comes with the Blackfyre army (and probably sword,) she comes with the Black Dread Reborn.
And no, Robert is not Aerys reborn, but Aegon the Unworthy. I also don't see a Jon vs Dany conflict outside of having to choose between Dany and FAegon. Since Westeros only counts it as incest when the relationship happens within the nuclear family, Jon won't have a problem marrying Dany. No, the problem will come with FAegon, who is supposedly Jon's older brother. He will have the throne, but he is arrogant and dishonorable. Dany is the queen chosen by her subjects and deserves the throne. Where does Jon fall in that? Honor and duty say FAegon, but love and compassion say Dany.
Something I find interesting is that Cat doesn't mind that Ned was supposedly unfaithful, but that he brought Ned home with him. What do you suppose that says about her?
WH !!!
I thought zorses was a typo the first time i read it lol
N + A = J
Timing doesn't make sense. If Jon was conceived at the Tourney, he would clearly be older than Robb, but he's a little younger. If he had been conceived the next time, he'd be even younger than he actually is.