For those that think I'm making a case that Goku can't be criticised, I'm not. I'm simply arguing that using his lack of "development" as a reason to not like him is a poor one considering how many great characters have that same arc. You are perfectly entitled to not like Goku.
But isn't the whole premise of this video the fact the people prefer a positive arc to a flat one? Did you forget what you were doing after reading the vegeta love? People don't dislike Goku as much as they just prefer Vegeta, as Vegeta is an actual growing, thinking person.
Great analysis. Some folk can miss the fact that, usually, a character is a tool to service the story being told. That's not to say that an interesting character can't be hindered by poor storytelling, it's just that expecting growth for growth's sake in a character like Goku is like admonishing the sun for not '"growing" past being the center of our solar system; both are where they need to be in order to facilitate growth elsewhere.
goku is dragon ball is a good statement but focusing on him all the time makes viewers not want to watch. i want to see some sub arcs with the weaker of the z fighters, they've all been tossed in the trash and forgotten about, gohan was my boy back in the day i wanted him to fight all the time but they shit canned him, pickels is just a toss in every now and then to setup for the real fight with goku or vegeta in the tourney of power i was rooting for vegeta to come out with a W under his belt. but alas it was someone who had no prevalence in the whole dragon ball super series until the tourney
Well I've liked Original post, as I like your re-iteration of the narrator's quote, and both sub comments, as I both agree and learned something. A Vegeta mega fan, who has viewed the Z series, Ep23 or so being my favourite, "it's over 9,000!!!" (anti-heroes generally, Alex from A Clockwork Orange, McMurphy from One Flew Over, Harby/Pietre from Utopia S1 & 2 (Ch4, 2013, rarely seen, would highly recommend), Omar Little HBO's The Wire, Wayne from Wayne (UA-cam orig. production) etc.)..
@@KevinJDildonik One dayt? You mean one year in the same room of non-stop intense training one-on-one? I wouldn't watch Super for the "Goku is Dragonball" feel. I'd watch Dragonball and to a lesser but still significant extent, DBZ for that feeling. From the sounds of it, they really fucked up the canon by making Super. I'd say DBGT is more "Goku" than Super as well. Shit happens though when everyone is a sellout.
G Spawn First of all Goku died for him twice, so he clearly loves him. Also there are many times in the manga and anime where goku and his family are chilling at home (ex. Before the cell games)
I feel like Goku's development into a fighter in OG DB could be considered as an arc. I first watched DBZ before DB and you'll notice where he gets most of his Z personality traits in DB. He learned not be arrogant and continue to train to get stronger from losing against Jackie Chun. He was taught to show mercy to his enemies by Android #8. He almost got his strength in a dishonest way against Korin but decided to instead complete Korin's challenge honestly as he didn't want to cheat his way out. There's also the story of him accidentally killing his Grandpa in Oozaru form and willing to go up against the Red Ribbon army to get the last object his grandpa gave to him. And all his friends keeping this secret from him to not hurt him and only learning about how Grandpa Gohan really died as an adult. There's also the arc of him accepting his Saiyan heritage after Vegeta's lament after him discrediting his heritage since Saiyans are inherently evil and they are planet brokers and Goku's only benevolent because of some accident as a kid. Basically meaning his personality's a mistake. Goku then accepted his heritage thanks to Vegeta revealing his dark past and actually showing emotion to him despite being so prideful. Vegeta also helped Gohan & Krillin on Namek and is the reason they are still alive. This showed Goku that Saiyans may be able to be redeemed and he then accepted his heritage. This can also be seen as an effect Vegeta may have had on Goku which is less obvious than the effect Goku's had on Vegeta. Hope I'm making sense here to whoever that reads this.
yeah that made perfect sense. Goku is a hardcore Spiderman basically. He actually killed his uncle Ben, and learned the same lesson which is the root of all their heroicity.
He also developed in the debut Z. When Raditz tell Goku that he was a alien from a race of killer, he was denying his original race. After the Vegeta's death, he completely accepted his race by burying Vegeta.
Actually, I think that flat characters actually do evolve. But not in the common sense of the term. Their struggle is intern, they do not struggle to become a better person but they struggle to stay the same despite everything that's thrown at them. And Goku is a good example of this: he is kind, forgiving and has a huge respect for what lives; he only kills when he has no other choice to avoid the world being destroyed. - he doesn't kill Nappa although this one was responsible for the deaths of 4 of his friends and almost killed his son - he spares Vegeta athough he tried to destroy the world and tortured his friends - he gives some spare energy to Frieza to let him live on (alright he kills him afterwards but hey! he had just gone through his first ever super saiyen transformation which was a rage induced change after Krillin's death! I'll go back to this later) - he wishes Buu to come back as someone good someday (you know... the one who destroyed planet Earth along with his family and most of his friends) Goku may be foolish and selfish for many small things but he is selfless when it comes to protect what lives. Despite everything he went through, he struggled hard to stay kind and forgiving when he could just have gone berzerk. And to me, one thing that showed his inner struggles in the best way is precisely the first time ever he turned into a super saiyan: He witnessed pure evil: Frieza doesn't only kill; he tortures physically and psychologically. Most antagonists in the Dragon Ball universe have reasons to be evil: Vegeta was raised as a servant of Frieza who threatened his people and was led to believe he needed to be powerful to overthrow Frieza. The Androids, Cell included, were created and programmed to eliminate Goku by an vengeful scientist of the fallen Red Ribbon Army. Piccolo Daima was the evil part of Kami and even he just wanted to basically rule the world and get back his youth. Buu was created by magic as the ultimate killing being to serve the megalomaniac goals of Bibidi. Frieza is on a whole other level. He already rules countless worlds and relishes in the suffering of the ones under his boots. He doesn't only whipe out those who stand in his way: he likes seeing them suffer. Frieza is an evil being like Goku had never ever seen before (and never ever saw after as far as I know). And he killed Krillin before his very eyes. And I think we can all remember what Krillins first death at the hand of Tambourine did to him in DB: he went mad and even disobeyed Master Roshi, which means quite a lot. Even worse: Having been revived by the Dragonballs already, Krillin was supposed to never be able to be brought back to life again. Goku felt a rage he had never ever felt before at that time. Pure hatred. Every single cell in his body cryed out for destruction. Master Roshi acknowledges this, saying he feels Goku is struggling the hardest battle of his life: if he fails, he might become the worst threat to the universe. Even Goku is aware of this as he tells Gohan to leave before he loses what is left of his sanity. It's the first and only time ever that Goku tells his friends to leave to protect them from himself. So yeah, Goku is a flat character. But man has he battled inside to stay the same.
Never thought through this point of view. Very interesting, I agree. Goku's struggle is to stay true to his truth despite the temptations to be someone else
Although I know he’s technically non canon, I think Goku’s ultimate nemesis is Baby. I think it was a genius move to pull off a villain that shares absolutely *none* of Goku’s virtues. More than anything, Goku is pure transparency and honesty. Baby is pure disloyalty and deception. Even Frieza has some semblance of a warrior’s dignity. But Baby? To him, literally *everything* that Goku values deserves nothing but contempt and mockery.
As someone who wants to be a book author, I appreciate this point of view. It's a very interesting take on flat characters that I will take to heart in the future.
I expected this to be a dissection of the misinterpretation of Goku as a "noble and selfless hero" basically Superman type character. Instead I got a detailed lesson on how certain types of character arcs better suit different mediums. Not what I expected, but I was not disappointed.
Same here. Specially because the english dub completely changed his personality, changing him from someone who just likes to fight, to some kind of "hero"
@@cirojnascimento The English dub did not change Goku into a hero. In the Japanese manga and anime, Goku was a hero. DBS changed Goku into a character that just likes to fight due to an interview by Akira Toriyama after DBZ was over. Toriyama likes to subvert expectations if people think Goku is going to win he going to make him lose. So if people thought Goku was a hero he going to say he is not. But in Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z if you read the manga you will see he wrote Goku as a hero. I believe when he said Goku is not a hero I think he was saying he is not a Hero like the Great Saiyaman, Goku is not going to run around a city looking for bad guys. But if some threaten to destroy the earth he is going to protect the earth. Kairi Yajuu Analysis does a good job of explaining this
@@sonnywoods6846 when did Goku ever try to be the Selfless Hero? every fight he has ever been in has been for his own benefit which is usually fighting a strong and terrifying opponent. Hell he even brought Freeza back and let him rampage again. The entire dragon ball Saga was literally goku trying to either get his dragon ball back or get stronger and beat people up literally half of dragon ball Z was caused by Goku fighting and Super is no better Goku only seemed like a Hero because his benefit usually results in a good ending for everyone else but it comes with a stupid risk just to satisfy goku. even trunks pointed it out in the cell saga and Bulma and Krillin have constantly been pointing it out throughout dragon ball and dragon ball Z
@Krillindude I know all about that but to say that Akira Toriyama didn't write Goku to be a hero is still wrong. Because in the manga he is written as a hero. People use the American version but I am talking about the Japanese version of GOku. I don't watch the Englis version of Dragon Ball. So I don't know how Funimation depicted Goku. I only know how Goku was depicted in the Japanese version and he was a hero in the Japanese version Manga and Anime
@Krillindude Also When Toriyama made that comment in 1995 or 96 the Hope of the Universe comment came out in the I think 1999. So Toriyama was not talking about the Funimation version when he said he didn't like Goku looking like a hero. Like I said the problem with Toriyama comment is that he made Goku look like a hero in his own manga. Toriyama Contradicts himself when he says that he didn't want Goku depicted as a hero, but jsut a guy that love to fight.
gokus relatively the same and yes hes only got a few emotions and yes hes made some mistakes and has flaws but because of those hes actually a well written character and even without them he would be a good hero...characterization is more than just development..thats part of it but only one part and isn't vital for me in a story even for the main character...all of gokus friends from heel turned enemies are developed aroundhim and thanks to him...that's all I need...gokus not a gary stu outside of the final freeza fight..hes not static..we seen him grow..people just didn't watch gt or og db..they look at z and super as if their the only shows that exist..its rather funny how people define a good character by change as if gokus suppose to change from the good person he was as a kid..he could fly kinta un was offered the role of guardian of earth for his unselfish nature and allowed to keep his body to train when he died ..but apparently he needs to change cause reasons...vegeta fans cant stand how shitty vegeta is treated because he deserves it...hes not suppose to be a hero..goku turned him into one...he actually is developed in gt..unlike in super where he never learns...people love vegeta but the dude was willing to kill nappa didn't care about raditz was willing to blow up earth twice has no regard for goku or his son or wife and risks humanity safety just for a brawl with goku and then when he realizes he cant stop buu he sacrificed himself but out of necessity more than being humble like goku did vs cell which he was copying...not to mention beating up gohan 3 times and then shitting on him later too..vegetas a douche...
This is so true because a child can understand it without overthinking. In my country everyone said, hey let's watch Goku, we didn't say let's watch Dragon Ball. Goku, as he stated, is Dragon Ball.
I always like Goku as a character. I know many folks like the "change of heart/redemption" trope like with Tein, Piccolo, and Vegeta (I do to), but honestly it's been done to death by other mediums. Goku however, he has this unique trait. He is a good guy, but not in a "Justice of the universe" type good .He's just someone who like to help anyone because he's generally a nice person. Yes he does like to fight, but he also doesn't want innocent people and animals to get hurt. Another thing is...he isn't perfect. (insert Cell joke here). He does make mistakes, or make certain situations worse but he usually makes up for it. Of coarse there's the bad dad trope. Goku doesn't know how to be a good dad, but he isn't a bad dad. Many people forgotten that he did risked his life for Gohan, actually spent time with him during the timeskip before the androids arrived, trained with him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/Room of Spirit and Time, and actually believed in him with his strength. As for Goten, he was dead but he is currently living with him. Oh and Goten doesn't mind if his dad does want to train somewhere. Finally, Goku has impacted other characters in many ways. For some changes there ways, like how Yamcha was a bandit, Krillin was a trouble making cheater, Tein being misguided by his Superiors from the Krane school, and Vegeta from being a ruthless prince who believed an Elite could never be surpassed. I would include Piccolo but I feel Gohan had more impact.
Adding on to that, what Super did with the majority of Goku's character development was pretty poor in all honesty. From being the good guy who wouldn't risk lives, to being a supposedly good guy who would risk a multiverse of lives for a fight. Now that's next level stupid.
@@Cabolt44 Well to be fair, it's not like Goku knew about Zeno was going to erase the universes before hand. When Zeno first suggest it at the end of the U6 arc there was no mention of destroying multiverses. Not to mention he was planning on destroying anyway. Beerus didn't know either but was just scared that Goku might upset him. igotta say, Bergamo sure made it convincing. Even to the fandom lol.
@@burgerkingJ Well Bergamo is a fox so yea that helps. However that's not really the issue. They played around with his character too much in DBS and in a lot of ways Toei didn't know who Goku was (which is super weird considering Goku is Toei's mascot). I think the manga did a better job at explaining that part (even though it fails in other aspects).
@@Cabolt44 That's a fair point. Though I do give them some slack. I think they tried to express the other traits of his character. A bit too much if I'm being honest. But hey, Goku had his goofy moments too in the series. That's just me though.
Well the full movie was uploaded onto youtube, and reached a million views before getting striked. twitter.com/imsaltyt/status/1090003242409385986?s=21
people confuse and overrate development over characterization now a days...a character changing is fine but so is their original persona...who they are matters as much as who someone else becomes..
@@jordana4936 it's a joke about moms not understanding what certain labels refer to. It's like when your mom refers to all consoles as a Nintendo, or every pokemon as Pikachu. So if "Goku is Dragonball", the joke is that Dani's mom may flip the names around too much.
Extremely well explained, I really enjoyed this and learned something. Goku has always been my number 1, and I’m glad that you shed light on just how important he is. Thank you
@@ThatAnimeSnob 1. Goku is not 50. He's 40-something 2. You're obviously here to troll. The video went deep than "oh goku acts 10 and that's why he's a good character"
@3rd Way I don't understand how people don't see that Frieza has now developed as a character, he is still bad, but not as bad as before, his wish was also to be 5cm taller while Vegeta thought it is to become immortal, if Frieza was the same as before then Vegeta would have been correct, but that wasn't the case.
I've always liked Goku, but for different reasons. This just gives me even more of a reason to like him because I can UNDERSTAND the value of a character like him. I understand what he is and how he works. A lot of people don't get that and immediately throw him in the trash, especially new newcomers, so I personally will suggest this video to newcomers to the series who feels that way towards Goku.
Deadbeat Valentine I actually think this video is more for old fans that grew up with the bad Funimation dub, since they watched a bad version of the series with a bad and inaccurate script but still well said
Most people (those who aren't clout chasers or posers) appreciate goku because they watched the OG Dragon Ball. That story has aged very well in terms of storytelling for Goku. DBZ had its ups and downs (talkin bout the japanese and kai dub btw for those "technical" people) but he did mature compared to his Dragon Ball version. Super though, they completely reversed his whole character development in DBZ and even the last arc of DB and turned into his past self, essentially. They basically GT goku'd him without having to turn him into a child.
This is a very unique take on the defense of Goku's character. People often just scramble to find evidence that Goku *does* develop, but instead you flat out say he stays the same all throughtout, but that's a good thing. You've definitely got me convinced.
But it's not true... I've said this before, Goku had some lessons in humility he had to learn from Mr Popo, as well as coming to "own" his identity as a Saiyan in a way that works for him, because the thought used to disgust him, he also had other challenging developments, such as the realization he couldn't just let Frieza go the same way he did with Vegeta, owning up that he didn't understand his son doesn't want to fight Cell, and sacrificing himself for it along with the realization that he can often bring more harm and danger than good.... so no, Goku does not just "stay the same" and it's a backhanded argument to say so
A note on Goku's character development that I find interesting, actually. To say he develops as much as Vegeta is wrong, even as a Goku fanboy, I can agree with that. But Goku seems to be hated so much because his development is opposite to that of Vegeta's. Vegeta appears as a savage bloodthirsty Saiyan but by Buu Saga, he learns to become an Earthling. Of course, he's still a Saiyan and has those moments, but we see him become more sincere and caring. Meanwhile, Goku is an Earthling who comes to terms with his Saiyan biology... he learns to become more selfish, to enjoy the fight. That's why in Super, he can come off as so obnoxious and terrible. People just don't see that his flaws might be on purpose. Just a fun thing to think about that I personally love. It's proved further by the end of the Broly movie, with what he says to Broly. "My name's Goku... but you, Broly, can call me Kakarot!" and they both smile. wholesome af.
@@smirks_ he develops as much as Vegeta Goku is a main character who in the Saiyan arc, has to come to terms with the fact that he himself is a Saiyan (as seen when he looks with shock when Raditz tells him about him and his race). He has to learn how to take a life when necessary after he defeats Freeza, which is why he helps Gohan kill Cell and why he himself kills yakon and Boo later. As a kid, he lacked a moral compass when it came to that stuff, which is why after he trained under Kami (God aka an old man in the sky with a stick), only then did we see an unwillingness for him to kill. To say Goku remains same from child to adult is false, his Saiyan Heritage changes him to risk the world for the sake of a fight, something he didn't do as a child. He kills early on because he is a kid with no guidance, gains a heart under Kami and then learns to do it when necessary after beating freeza.
In the world we are shown yeah there is no one like him but his traits are just eating a lot, being good and martial arts genius. In early parts of the show I liked how one of his other traits like big love and respect for nature was shown. Until maybe cell saga or even buu saga he was fine but in super he became just awful. While Vegeta is more strict, proud and doesn't go soft against his opponents at least he changed so much that he understands that probably sometimes he is too proud or strict. When his second child is soon to be born he still wants to look tough but in many many scenes we see how much he changed and how he cares about his family. He is ready to give up his motivation in life which is fighting to stay by his family while Goku is like "I was dead when my kids were born so what is the problem let's go fight". In super Goku is dumb beyond belief in that show and this is why Vegeta honestly won in voting.
@@vadimpolukejev374 you are right but i think the behavoir akira designed for goku is the best for me ,but the new creator didnt really understood goku's behaviour and made him look dumb and thats what i hate about dbs the most .
Everyone loving those characters who had a change of heart or character development but forget that goku being the main, hes the reason those characters changed themselves, ever since the start of dragon ball
@@Chosengaming2001 he's the positive flat arc who changes the world into the better there's also the negative flat character who changes the world around them into the worse joker and Johan liebert are examples of this
@@Anubis-xk4ht Could it be called something other than "flat arc"? I get what their saying, but the definition of an arc is a line that curves. i.e. "not flat"
@@biteme9486 flat characters aren't one dimensional as long they're done right and well executed and serve their part in the story, many people will shit on static characters while favouring other characters exactly the same like everyone seems to love uncle iroh from ATLA all in execution
Goku is Superman. A great character who changes his world for the better, but is underappreciated by most fans and written horribly by people who don't understand his character.
"Amazing. How do you do it, Kakarot? You've always been like this, ever since the day I first met you; always ready to meet the next challenge, even if it's bigger than you are... It was the same on Namek. You had improved so much that it made Recoome like he was standing still. Your power had increased so dramatically since our battle on Earth that I thought you had done it, I thought that you had become a Super Saiyan! It tore me apart! How could a low-class soldier accomplish so easily what I...I had to struggle my whole life to achieve!? After three millennia, it has finally happened; a new Super Saiyan has emerged, and, somehow, I have become this pauper's witness. Then at last, it happened. I too transformed. After living every moment of every day for the singular purpose of surpassing you, I finally became a Super Saiyan myself, the Prince had reclaimed his throne and fulfilled his destiny. But no matter how strong I became, your power still exceeded mine. At first, I thought it was your loved ones; that it was your instinct to protect them that spurred you on and pushed you beyond your limits. But then I found myself with a family of my own, and my power... didn't increase at all. I used to fight for the sheer of pleasure of it; for the thrill of the hunt, oh I had the strength unmeasurable - I spared no one. And yet, you showed mercy to everyone, even your fiercest enemies, even me! Yet, you never fought to kill, or for revenge. Only to test your limits and to push yourself beyond them, to become the strongest you could possibly be. How can a Saiyan fight like that and at the same time be so gentle that he wouldn't hurt a fly? It makes me angry just thinking about it! But, perhaps it is my anger that has made me blind to the truth for so long. I see it now, this day has made it all too clear. You're better than me Kakarot. You are the best. "
It's so true that goku changes the world around him because it's because of goku that piccolo and vegeta could have such great character development. All though i do think that goku also has character development too.
@@solitary2 Not really most protagonists do stuff then they get a outcome and will never be mentioned outside that arc but Goku does things that impacts the world like him versus Demon King Piccolo he is known for that and is always somewhat remembered as that the world doesn't impact him he forms the world as when Goku fights there was always a social impact like when Mr.Satan gets Satan City that's a social impact that was triggered by Goku
@@mindofGOAT bruh nearly all protagonists within a overlaying plotline affect the world and plot, what u on about? Naruto affected the world, luffy effected the world way more than goku in fact, eren, guts and many more
@@KarthikArmstrong Ahem mate lemme tell you what i'm on about: Goku creates short term impacts and long term impacts look at Cell if Goku didn't attack red ribbon would there be a Cell no there wouldn't that's a long term impact it affected the world not reacted to the world Also look at Buu if Goku never had Gohan or Goten, never met vegeta, never met the z fighters etc their wouldn't be a Fat Buu I know Goku doesn't always affect the world but his presence in Earth created the BUU SAGA there is point to be made here. Goku does react to world but he creates future points of interest and storylines that become long term effects of his actions
@@KarthikArmstrong Luffy never has his own arc either. He, in fact, is the best example for a flat character arc. He barely undergoes any changes. Even the life changing moments he lives through don't change his character a lot, if at all, in the story afterwards.
@@KevinJDildonik You didn't Watch the Anime. Go Watch the Anime Again. Goku actually Saved All the Universes with the Tournament and Giving at least a Chance to the Universes to Survived and to Zeno Mind Think that the No Growing of the Universes cannot be Changed. Goku didn't Know of the Rules of the Tournament until the Exhibition Tournament Came out. He Just Wanted a Tournament jus Like the Universe 6 vs 7. Zeno is the True Villain that Peoples don't Want to see.
Goku actually does have character development. OG Dragonball was an entire learning experience for him as he grew to realize there’s always someone stronger, to not give in to his own primal rage, to trust in his own abilities, etc. Then in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, we have him accepting his heritage and getting to understand that it is what actually makes him, well, him. And in the battle with Cell he accepts that his son has surpassed him and passes him the torch, while also accepting his own mistakes and “cleaning up his mess” by sacrificing himself when Cell self destructs. Plus deciding not to come back, and giving the youth more chances to save the world with the Buu arc. Freeza saga Goku would’ve fought Majin Vegeta in a heartbeat with no threats at all but Goku had grown to be a bit more logical.
Views and changes the world around them. That and, another factor in how to do the flat arc, test the character's beliefs. Give them temptations to leave their path.
Watching Z immediately after Dragon Ball really puts things in perspective for how the other characters see him. Yeah, Goku had been everyone’s hero up to then, but he was still had comprehensible strength compared to theirs. Imo his power up from King Kai’s training is his most important power up of the series because it was the first time he looked leaps and bounds above everyone else, and they basically saw him as the (fashionably late) messiah first when he arrived to face Nappa and Vegeta.
@@nnightkingj and Toryiama took inspiration from Superman (flat arc) for Sayan Saga, Star Wars (positive arc) for Namek Saga and Terminator ( ;) ) for Android Saga. Superman has a flat character arc as its roots (early comics design for long series) and no one complain about. Batman too I guess (detective comics like sherlock holmes, who has a flat arc too, for long series of short story). TLDR: Flat arcs are a thing since eons
albert taco yes he loosely took inspiration from super man nobody is denying that but kishimoto stated it himself goku originally took inspiration from journey to the west and the monkey king he wasn't technically an alien until dbz but you have no proof besides coincidence to say he took inspiration from terminator and star wars but gokus arc and character is different from superman and isn't so flat as this video states but to conclude I never said it was bad to take inspiration from something unless it's a blatant copy and paste without its own image
@@nnightkingj lol I know that journey to the west Son Wu Kong is the base of Son Goku (Captain Obvious?) but Sayan saga is what makes the show popular in western part of the world, since Journey to the West is not as relatable, as a young man coming from space (-tldr : Superman).
Goku's character is my favourite, it's like he's an unyielding object that is being pressured from all sides to change its form. Goku shall be Goku, always.
Dude i love goku i love his carefree personality and i love how he can joke around but also understand how serious a situation is but also take it with a grain of salt. Goku is awesome favorite character of the whlle serious and his father i also love him aa well.
@@xojah178 yeah dude goku is so awesome and so painful that’s why I freaking love him so much I hope one day goku will became omnipotent like toad by end of db series that’s would be badass as well
I admit too many people who said they never watched Dragon Ball when it literally came on right next to Dragon Ball Z on Toonami. That's another reason why Goku is a misunderstood character
@@tybraker27 I know it was a joke sometimes i just try to be funny but Goku does have a character in him that's what most people understand it's not about the power or his strength it's about his character and his will to fight yes he does fight and eat to get stronger yes he still does that but since then Goku has become earths greatest protecter and a hero
@@tybraker27 actually, its he is not. I looked it up and and 2020 Games’ ambassador. The official mascot name is Miraitowa, a made up friendly super hero !!
Jesus died and rose again to save you from hell. These Bible verses explain how you can accept Jesus as your savior and have eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 3:23, 3:10, 5:12, 6:23, 5:8-9, 10:9-10, 10:13, 10:17, 8:28, Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 11:1-3, James 1:17, 2 Peter 3:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.) :)
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An absolutely phenomenal video! I think that people often forget our stories require at least one character with a flat arc to define to the audience what is good or what is evil. The fact is that characters like Piccolo or Vegeta would not exist with characters like Goku. Accordingly, some of the world's most beloved character have flat-arcs. These include Captain America, Thanos, the Joker, and even Obi-Wan Kenobi. These are the types of characters who refuse to let the world change them and instead change the world. They shape the entire story and often teach the audience a moral about perseverance or a warning about true evil. I think this kind of characters are some of the most inspiring ever made. They show you that anyone including you can make a difference and change the world, hopefully for the better. I find that very encouraging and inspiring indeed!
Yes, Vegeta works _because_ of Goku. I think a lot of fan fiction (not naming names) misunderstands this when using Vegeta, because they approach it from the standpoint that Vegeta was cheated by Toriyama, and they end up just exchanging Goku for Vegeta.
@@monkey.brains Not exactly. Obi-Wan only has a slight positive arc as he continuously gets more experiance and skill as a Jedi, but I cannot justifiably call that a real positive arc because literally every single character experiences this with time. This including Goku who who was literally just established as a flat character in this very video. Character-wise Kenobi does not significantly develop because he is already given many positive qualities. In fact, you cannot really ascribe any negative qualites to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's role in Star Wars is to further Anakin's and later Luke's development. That's a character changing the world, not the world changing the character. Obi-Wan is also there to be an ideal Jedi so we can compare him to Anakin, a fallen Jedi. He's a foil to Anakin and gives the audience a standard to compare other characters to.
I find it fascinating that, when the narrative has the world around a protagonist change in any fundamental capacity, people are more likely to say they enjoy the narrative, while in scenarios in which the world causes the protagonist to change in any fundamental capacity, people are more likely to say that they enjoy the protagonist.
This is due to two key aspects of humans as beings. 1: We like things that are similar to us because we can understand these other things through our own experiences. 2: Humans are not static, we change with each day that passes in our lives. As such, elements of a story that are familiar to us are more likeable, and thus, the changing elements are the most charimastic part.
Quick little thing I'd like to add about the tenability of different types of arcs: You're absolutely right that writers shouldn't attempt to retread a character's arc like in the case of Vegeta for the sake of keeping them relevant, because that's lazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that after a character's "positive" arc is finished, the only path forward is to either retcon that character's personality to make them interesting again, or to dispense with them entirely, but there is another option, namely setting up _new_ arcs. No person is ever done changing/growing, and that fact translates to fictional characters. Take the still-relevant and ever compelling character of Iron Man for example. You could argue that after his first movie, his arc was "completed." While still a character suffering from egotism/arrogance-albeit less so than when the movie started-he has become more conscious of the suffering of others and has made an active decision to use his company/resources to help alleviate it. He has overcome his selfishness. However, there’s still more to deal with. In The Avengers, Tony’s arrogance/narcissism are challenged by the likes of people like Captain America, and he ultimately puts them aside in favor of working as part of a team, a cause bigger than himself. The most recent films like Civil War and Infinity War are filled with some of Tony’s best material (thanks to Markus and McFeely) like dealing with his past trauma; material that was still able to be crafted *after* Tony had arguably completed multiple arcs. This is something most of Toei’s writers just don’t seem to understand for characters like Vegeta or Piccolo. Again, this is a very minor nitpick/tangent. Great video as always!
Oh I absolutely agree with setting up a new account system. Though what I'm arguing is that it significantly more difficult and less reliable than relying on a flat character arc type like Goku for a long running series like dragon Ball. That's why my closing point is claiming Goku is dragon Ball. He's perfect for a show of that nature. But yes, someone like Vegeta can begin a new arc. It's just very difficult to create one.
I'd like to present another side to this: Iron Man's arcs in those movies work so well is because they are still founded in the central issue of Iron Man and his own self interest/focus. instead of being egotistical, he's so focused on his own viewpoint and his own mistakes that he forgot how to deal with other people. With cases like Vegeta, it doesn't really work as well. Vegeta's arc in Super about being a teacher to Cabba is well done and all but it loses some impact because Vegeta being a teacher or interacting that way wasn't really something that was set up in the beginning, unlike his sociopathy and his pride. Yes, it is an extension of his redemption as it showcases him passing on his knowledge to another person for their benefit but he never had set up with a mentor figure or being a mentor before hand. It's also why Vegeta's scenes with Trunks and Bulla are so impactful: because his inability to be a proper father figure was due to his sociopathy and pride. I'm not saying it's bad writing at all but I am saying that you only get one establishment of a character and unless you are REALLY dedicated or talented to introduce several key flaws to a character in said establishment in order that have these similar arcs, you only get one arc related to the core of their character (similar to how you can only experience something for the first time only once.)
@@TotallyNotMark I would say that they have set him up with one. Specifically vegeta the teacher with cabba. Passing on the saiyan tradition of growing in strength and pride
Meriza Kewel I agree. But my only point was purity of heart is stated as required to ride the nimbus. Those three all are shown to be able to ride it, though Bulma, Krillin, and Rosho cannot.
No wonder Zeno is so interested in Goku. He's just that guy who's cool with everyone. I always liked Goku. But you made me like him even more actually.
I think Zeno is the same as Goku in many respects. And Frieza and Goku are also the same as well. This is the first video that I know of that pointed that fact out.
I used to like Goku when i was younger and dragonball z just started airing on tv but now looking back i realised he actually is a massive failure as a father and the worst husband and friend to have. Heck Vegeta who wasn't even the family man type did way better on those aspects than Goku ever did. Bulma also stated that Goku never visits his friends because he is too busy training. That's all Goku does.. Train, fight and don't give a shit about anything else lol. He literally abandoned his family.
> Saves the Earth and universe countless times and sacrifices himself twice Fandom: 😴 > Doesn’t regulate the inhabitance (which is the job of the Kai and GoD) of the universe and isn’t lovey dovey enough with his wife Fandom: “hEs A sHitTy pErSoN, hE hAtEs hIS fAmiLy”
I always roll my eyes when the fandom says Goku is a “shitty father”, when he literally died twice protecting his son from harm. Not to mention in the Bojack movie he broke the laws of nature by punching Bojack from beyond the grave just to save Gohan. He’s not the perfect parent but he’s far from a shitty one
So, A friend showed me this video, and I finally found the words to describe how I feel about Goku. He asked me how if I felt Goku was a good character and I responded by saying that “He’s a good character for what he’s designed to do, and that’s to be the story telling device that we see the world through. He’s not designed to grow around the story, Akira Toriyama made Goku so that the story evolves and grows around Goku.”
Being Goku is one of the most popular characters to ever come out of Japan, it should be no surprise he has been picked for one of the mascots for the 2020 Olympic Games.
Relax, Goku isn't even top 10. You're forgetting the renaissance of animation, the birth of animation with Disney and many other classic decades. You ask a random-er who Goku is, you'll likely get stares of confusion. However you ask anyone between speaking age and 70 who sponge bob. mickey mouse or spider-man is, you'll get a standard answer. These characters are more popular than Goku too.
Bonnie Knight Comic Superman is actually really interesting. The movies just turn him into some bland stoic alien who can’t understand humans. In the comics and even some of the cartoons he acts like a actual real person: which he is. It doesn’t make any sense for him to act the way he does in the movies, the earth is his home, he was raised under human customs. Why wouldn’t he act human?
I hate character memes to such as goku isn't a good father like I mean yeah he does have his moments but in a whole goku can be as good as a father as vegeta
@@pizzaguy1127 exactly, people take the TFS jokes too seriously, Goku may not be a perfect father or husband but he always goes out of his way to protect the ones he loves the most
Jacen Bonds I disagree. Goku has always been a good father to Gohan ever since he was born, and always went out of his way to protect him in Z, even Goten, though he wasn’t around too much for his early beginnings. Vegeta too became a father in the Cell arc but was so shitty and selfish towards Trunks and didn’t even care about him until he was killed by Cell. It took him pretty much years to finally put his family first. Even though Vegeta has better traits in Super now, more than Goku to an extent, I believe that overall Goku is a better parent compared to Vegeta. To be fair though, they are completely different characters and have their own way of parenting, so I guess that are both good in their own way.
people often overlook that Goku is responsable for every Character fighting for the good in this series, Krillin,Tien,Yamcha,Piccolo,Gohan,Goten,Vegeta,Trunks,17,18 (&soon prob Broly) all are there because Goku did something at one point in the Series which caused a change in their Character the best example is roshis speak in the TOP during MUI vs Jiren everyone is there because of goku and goku is there because of everyone
nobody has overlook anything. Doesnt change the fact that goku is horrible written character all he does is fight nothin else, atleast in super he has an actual job and share with his family and grandaughter PAN, THATS ACTUALLY GOOD, but nope, fanboys just want to see goku next level, next stupid fucking transformation, his next big numbers, the same stupid ass punch and kick we have seen a bazillion of time, no new techiniques or creatives way of beating his enemies like ROSHI DID IN THE TOURNAMENT OF POWER!!
It's almost like the entire anime is based off of fighting. Y'know punches and kicks? Seriously though, the 'horribly written character' of the series is the sole reason why you have characters that people love to jerk off like Vegeta, or Piccolo.
@@raulrojas9253 Yeah guy just go away Goku learn new technique all the time so not sure what your talking about Out of all the character the Kaioken The God bind the fusion technique the teleportation attack . this is a show about fighting get the fuck out of here with this nonsense .
Raul Rojas you don’t get the series don’t you? The series is about goku getting stronger and fight not saving people like my hero or have a mighty position like naruto he just fights because he enjoys it, so your point is invalid, next time you try and criticize a series do it with valid points and not with playground insults.
This is another thing Sonic and Goku have in common, they are upbeat,adventure-loving characters who live their lives to the fullest while inspiring change in those around them.
Exactly...because apparantly Kaulifa slander is like "sooo....last Tuesday" and "no longer cool". (although kinda justified in my opinion) and obviously because DB especially Z was NOT about badass martial arts and beams shooting and action.
Basically all of Dragonball is thanks to Goku. Without him we wouldn't have a story, obviously. But without Goku Japanese Manga and Anime AS A WHOLE would be COMPLETELY different than what it is today.
@@demonking86420 I mean Goku is still boring as his own character. I guess a boring stagnant character is what you could base a long running manga series on .
goku: born to destroy given instructions in his brain as a baby to kill and fight in his genes and yet chooses to be nice and help....that's a cool story..a boy with no immediate family mind you...he didn't sulk about having no parents or his evil broher...he did something..he got stronger...he pushed hi limits..hes no sasuke basically...
@@razkableYou're completely wrong. Goku never "chose" to be good, he hit his head as a young child. He still fights and values fighting over anything else, it's stated in super in fact. Goku had no reason to care about his parents since Gohan raised him and when he died he did in fact mourn his death (the 4 star ball). I also don't see why Goku would "sulk" about a brother he never met and kidnapped his son. Getting stronger from doing something is literally what every human does almost every day. If you repeatedly do something, you get better at it and pushing ones limits is something we should all strive to do.
It's not really an Eastern or Western thing, though, I think. In the 80s, these types of flat character arcs were everywhere, Johnathan Jostar, Kenshiro, etc. But as time went on, people grew to want more humanity and nuance out of their heroes than a Flat Character Arc could deliver. People wanted to see characters grow and deal with more complex and intriguing stories that weren't afraid to give us a bit more than just a strong, resolute, good guy beating up someone who existed to be pure, unwavering, evil. And writers adapted to this new trend of audiences wanting to feel more out of their stories. That's why positive arcs are so much more common now overall. It's not like suddenly flat arcs are always bad, but people just want to see more complex and engaging stories and, because people respond to positive arcs more, it's more common for writers to write those types of arcs in fiction... and that's just sort-of how it is. It's easy to see all three types of arcs and to think they're all just as good, but, realistically, some types of arcs are just better at captivating an audience, even though any type of arc can succeed or fail given the right circumstances.
@@dracocrusher The problem is we're starting to get to a point in time where positive arcs are now over-saturated. Maybe I'm wrong since I don't have a strong argument except my personal experience. I'm starting to get really tired of positive arcs even if they are well written because I find myself starting to get more invested in how important a character is to the world and how they impact it rather than the world impacting the character. Maybe I'm watching the wrong shows but I'm just tired of watching characters grow and develop in ways that I've already seen before since now there's so many shows that do positive arcs; while for flat characters I get more invested on how they change the world around them and seeing the effects one person can cause. Maybe it's time for the era of negative arc shows.
@@iamteadle714 I don't think negative arcs will ever really take off because, writing quality aside, people are turned off by darker subject matter. Sure, it can gain popularity and acclaim, but it's much harder to make something like that mainstream because people will generally enjoy seeing characters become better and the knowledge that they, themselves, can become better, than they like the idea that them and the characters they follow are actively becoming worse. I mean, as I said, it's not impossible for something like that to become popular, but I can't see it having as wide of an appeal as someone like Deku or Goku that actively stands for how you, too, right now, as a person, can improve yourself and achieve your goals... which is to say nothing about the reliability that comes with a character who works with or stands for an idea like that.
@@dracocrusher So do you consider the story of Forrest Gump to be less complex than the two other types of arcs? You can pretty much expand his entire life into a TV series and there would be no shortage of compelling characters and events that he can influence.
i dont know why people like to hate on 'good guy' characters like classic superman and manga goku. it's like they want the hero to be as malicious and ego centric as they do. I on the other hand prefer my heroes to be a morally upright person, gives me something to aspire towards.
I do come into the other hand , i'd like a character whom i can relate to , someone who isn't perfect on morals , someone who makes mistakes. Yet , he realizes the mistake and goes forward into fixing it and improving himself. That's inspiration for me
It's not so much as that people "hate" those types of character but they never truly change or were never relatable in the first place. I'd rather have a character start off as relatable and then become an inspiration rather than a character just being born an inspiration.
I don't usually don't root for the good characters but I actually like Goku's character because he has a lot influence on characters changing like Piccolo, Vegeta and Tien
When goku comes back from the dead in the buu saga and is with the z family again. I was like the z family crying and happy to see him. He just has this warm feeling like everything is gonna be okay now and like gohan told goten hes like an angel. You're right man goku is Dragon Ball and without him people wouldn't like vegeta as much if it wasnt for goku. Vegeta would have never changed and became interesting as he is. Goku is the best!!!
People praise Vegeta for loving his family and spending time with them, they praise piccolo for having a bond with Gohan and his family, while shitting on Goku for not doing the same. What they don't realize is that without Goku, we would never get that. If Goku had spent most of his time with his family, the piccolo and Vegeta arc won't exist. The reason why Goku is the strongest and always ahead of Vegeta is because he neglects his family. DB is a good example of why you can't have both things, you either become the strongest in the universe and prevent its destruction, or you settle for your family and eventually lead to their deaths. Goku can't be with his family because doing so would lead to their demise. Now the same fans shit on Gohan for spending too much time with his family. He settled for his family and lost the title of strongest in the universe. That's the biggest problem with DB fans is that they want ALL the characters to be IDEAL. They complain about Krillin and Gohan for not training, while at the same time complaining about Goku for not being with his family.
I completely disagree. Especially after rewatching almost every movie at the beginning of January I noticed again why I love the original Dragon Ball and early DBZ so much because Goku kinda gets to be both. I wouldn't say he is the best father I've ever seen but he has cool interactions with his friends and family. Later in DBZ and Super we don't really get anything like that except maybe with Gohan in the hyperbolic time chamber and after it before the Cell games start. I can't really think of one time after they first met that Goku and Goten had a nice interaction with each other. If both are in one scene they are just there and maybe Goten gets to act really childish again but nothing more.
I agree and tbh people get on Goku for being a bad dad and dont get me wrong hes not father of the year but if u look at it he was a father to Gohan until Raditz showed up and he sacraficed himself. Then after that he had to train to protect everyone for a year then got beat to a pulp by Vegeta and had to recover while Gohan and Krillin left to Namek. Then after the fight with Friez he was recovering with the Yardrats then came back. In trunks timeline he spent time with his family till he died like a year after returning. Main timeline he was notified bout the android trained with Gohan and Piccolo until it came up. Fast forward to the Cell games Goku giving Cell a senzu bean was bad but it was because he believe in his son's power. Next he sacraficed himself and didnt come back for the sake of the earth so he didnt get to be around when Goten was born. I'll admit his actions in Super may not be the best since he does love to train all the time but then again I never said he was a perfect father. My point is that hes nowhere near as bad as people peg him to be. If Goku was my father I would be content with his behaviour tbh.
how many times are you fucking fanboys gonna keep bringing back goku ¨sacrifices¨ They werent Sacrifices at all. The 1st time agains raditz GOHAN WAS THE ONE who injury raditz and then goku had the chance to grab his tail all he needed to do is to NOT LET IT GO but he fucked up so in the end he has TO SACRIFICE because if HE DIDNT raditz would have kill them all, IT WAS HIS FUCKING FAULT IN THE 1st PLACE!!. Cell....oh boy......goku can instan transmit or teleport in less than a second, but nope he choose to kill king kai an INNOCENT GOD and he stayed there waiting while cell explode......are those suppose to be sacrifices???!!! A sacrifices will be Ace Death...yeah it was dumb and all but it made more sense since luffy reached his LIMIT (finally...or rather for the 3rd time in the arc and after this luffy is out of the rest of the arc) Ace takes the attack that was meant for luffy but he actually understimated the enemy and got burn from the inside and die that was a sacrifice and one that made sense...after all those fight, after crossing the Impel down jail, the ocean and reaching the marine ford and fighting more powerfull enemies and DODGING some of them (Because luffy was outclass in that fight) And finally free his brother the arc ends with him FAILING because he give it all he got and colapse in the middle of the fight in the end he is responsible for Ace's Death but ace made the choice to sacrifice himself to save his little brother.....thats a sacrifice or when piccolo cover gohan, there was no way around it.....but gokus? no.
Raul Rojas you might be a little slow and that's the problem. The fan base is full semi conscious spergs. "Goku didn't sacrifice anything with Raditz he fucked up" yeah so did vegeta he literally revived Buu but vegeta's useless explosion is still called a sacrifice. I can tell you didn't put much thought into your rant he can't teleport anywhere in the universe just to energy signatures he can recognize. King Kai was literally the most effective place to take cell.
I always liked Goku's character, the fact that his convictions and beliefs never waver is something I admire. Even though Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and other characters undergo developments, that doesn't mean Goku's character is boring and plain. He really helped me know when to not care about what other people say to me, that's why Goku is my favourite character of the show.
AAkiraa Well said. I totally agree. I only had the manga of DB before I got cable and cable only had DBZ around that time. The original manga was what made me love it. It was goofy and inappropriate at times, but still funny in a very Japanese way and most importantly was very strict about power scaling. You could easily tell the limits of Goku’s ability at each loss. While as in Z and Super, especially in Super, the line blurs or is nonexistent. In Super he is affected by abilities he would easily counter in Z, which makes no sense.
Me, too. I just realized that's the reason I love Goku and Dragon Ball. I love that Goku is this innocent pure-hearted goofy and yet strong character that I look forward on how the other characters (especially villains) will react to him.😆
@@crimsonxxvip goku is also a hard worker..hes not given power like luffy is magically given conqueror's haki when he needs it cause plot or given powers like say ichigo or deku or naruto...he works for it..all the time...man did not even know how to shoot a ki beam at the start...he turned ssj by accident out of anger for losing his bff in front of him and not stopping it due to being tired from the spirit bomb...goku learns things...he trains...even if its off screen or barley shown...we get the point..timeskips occur to make us understand he works hard af...
"Goku is a horrible father. Piccolo is way better" It's almost like he killed Goku and kidnapped his son at a young age, thereby stealing most of the parental training time Goku could of had before all the other craziness went down.
I mean, even though he wanted Goku dead, there really wasn't another way to win after Goku messed up on letting Raditz go. Piccolo wasn't planning on killing Goku when they got there.
Dendo Yeah, it wasn't intentional and was the only way to win the way they did. Still doesn't change the fact that it put Piccolo in a position to gain a parental like bond with Gohan and taking Goku out of said position for a good while.
@Unstoppable Plays! I'd still argue that a good part of making vegeta the better man that he is, is in part of being humbled by the Z fighters. That and with no space boss and no home to go to, where else but the place where you got your ass kicked. If I remember correctly, vegeta completely turned down the idea of mating with earth women in the very beginning when nappa brought up trying to revive the race. He wanted no future competition with knowing how strong a half blooded bastard could be.
Unstoppable Plays! He might be a little bit better but the only way trunks can ever spend time with him is when he’s training. And vegeta is always training.
Is it just me or the reason more people hate Goku nowadays is partially because many people in recent years got into Dragon Ball through watching DBZ Abridged first and took the jokes TFS made about Goku being a bad husband/father too seriously?
I like this. Really didn't know about the flat character arc, but it makes a lot of sense as to why Goku's character seems to be misunderstood. I do feel like Goku has been getting an absurd amount of hate recently, so it's cool to see someone genuinely explain how he is written, and why he's seen as "boring" for many people. Great Video man 😁
So when I was 11 we drew designs for the olimpics and I drew a general olimpic style character but the hair was Goku's, each character had one of his form's hair. Did I predict the future?
but doesnt work in long runners. So look how horrible is db after cell or friezza even. and how boring is in the actual manga. kjjj toyotaro is so bad. gladly we have world trigger in emision
Yeah damn kinda sucks that everyone around goku repeats shit. At least gohan excepts the fact his story is over. But vegeta kinda stays consistent, but absolutely not piccolo
Kinsomniac P Man I feel you. You know what they could have done? They could have made Gohan that smart fighter who does not rely on raw power to win battles. A Gohan who has control over his hidden potiential to the point where he can manipulate Ki in different ways. This would be a great character development for him since he is becoming a scholar. So mix his brains with his brawns to make a fighter he is ment to be.
But gohan fir for it, he hated fighting and only want to start a familiy and bond with them. I mean look at goku his relationship with gohan and goten is good but goku rarely there went goten is born and gohan dont want that happend to his familly
Agree'd I was disappointed that Piccolo's excuse for becoming stronger was basically "I've been training while you weren't watching", it's a damn shame because Piccolo is my second favourite character after Vegeta
I've spent a lot of time on youtube watching reviews and everything has led me to the conclusion that "In order for a character's story to have worth, they must undergo a change." Every fiber of my body rejected this assessment because a vast majority of my favourite stories feature a main character that doesn't drastically change. Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha especially featured a main character whose driving goal has just been "to help this ferret" or "to understand and befriend this sad girl that just beat me up." I've seen reviews critcise this show for having an unchanging protagonist while praising the character arc of the rival character. Until I encountered this video I had no idea how to process the idea that "the main character must change" and now it all makes sense: They don't have to change, they have to be a part of change. This video really cleared up my mind Thanks a lot, Mark.
Goku Was Retconned, He Is Not A Flat Arc Character He Is A Character That Grew From An Idealist Naive Child, The Namik Saga Made Him A Mature Martial Master That Threw Away His Naivety And Idealism When Realizing That He Has To Kill Frieza And The Cell Saga Reinforced That Even Further Which Completes His Character Arc (This Is Why Gohan Was Being Set Up To Become The Next Main Character Since Goku Was Already Complete), Which Is Why His Character Had To Be Sacrificed For Super To Succeed.
Honestly I blamed how now a days everyone is literally trying to be a 'high class critic' to show off to random people that they have 'good taste' in anime. So instead of actually learning the art they just used vague & easy spammable word & phrases so they can be passed off as smart when they critique something. Examples being. 'Cliches, generic, token-character, character arc, no personality, overhyped, plot hole, plot armor, plot convience, bullshit main character.' you get the point, words that just by saying is a cheap way of saying 'it's bad' without actually knowing fully what they're talking about. Where we got to the stigma where the terms of a 'good hearted MC who don't truly need to change' are seen as boring and generic instantly while the 'Oh I'm so morally grey character, whose secretly depressed, ahhhhh all my actions are so thought provoking' that we see as the same thing over & over again where it's basically just a edgy person doing whatever he felt like at the moment but then afterwards justify it with 'oh but I have to because this is my ideals' crap we see. People eat that shit up like it's the most daring thing ever. Like personal opinion but I much rather see someone who strades way too close to being good go through struggles to keep his ideals as the world challenges him. Then seeing some edge guy getting a free pass to do whatever he wants then after justify it saying he needed too cause his ideals. Like it's reasons like this some anime that were good get overlooked for being 'too cliche' & ones that are a bore to watch at times & at times pisses me off get praised because 'oh it have so many thoughts put into each action' like no it don't! The character are literally just doing whatever the author wants for shock value and later use 'oh morale grey ideals' thing to justify it.
So basically the main characters are suppose to be like 5-7 years old children that did something bad, but bombard their parents with advanced words they (the children) do not fully understand in hopes they will get a pass. Because apparently EVERYTHING is relative. Yup....sounds about right concerning the generation
Pretty much this. This odd tendency to be a critic also causes people to put more emphasis on certain tropes as 'good' or 'bad' without really realizing these tropes aren't inherently so. See character development. It's always seen as good and every character needs it to be a "good" character. But, they don't see how a development really affects she character, just that it happened, and how sometimes "developing" a character could make a character less entertaining/interesting/important afterwards to little benefit. Some characters benefit from a flat arc while some need development to (remain) shining.
Goku changes or tries to change everyone around him in some way, and that's what makes him a great character. We've now even sene it SLIGHTLY getting through to Frieza when he says things like he wants to use a magical wish granting dragon just to get taller.
Thank you so much for this! I've seen so much negativity surrounding Goku's character lately so it was really refreshing to hear your thoughtful take on the character! The main character is rarely my favorite one in stories but I've always loved Goku and found him inspirational in a way. ... Then again, my favorite character in Dragon Ball series is Freeza, so maybe I have a thing for the flat character arc. I think it works in a series like this precisely for the reasons you described.
Freeza wasn't my favourite but I always find it interesting, seeing what he'll do next. I'm probably one of the few people who hopes he stays the way he is.
@@Oggy5000-u8b I get you. I don't really want to see him be different either. He's fine as he is now, and if they keep his changes subtle as they have for now, I'd be more than happy with that.
The one thing I hate about people who bash on Goku is that they try to blame the ToP on him when before Goku said anything about it Zeno himself originally had the idea. How is it his fault for agreeing with the will of basically God. Another key reason as to why it wasn't his fault is that the Grand Priest said they were gonna wipe out all eight anyway, but the ToP was so at least one Universe could have a fighting chance, but yeah. Goku is evil and he forfeit countless lives for his entertainment. 😒
@@luislatinoman7055 You could say it's his fault because he reminded Zeno of the concept and Beerus did warn so I still think he was being selfish but that doesn't make him a bad character. In fact it makes him more human imo.
@@Oggy5000-u8b If Zeno forgot about the Tournament then either the Grand Priest would have reminded him or they would have just gone with their first option of destroying all eight.
For those who think goku never had a character development, you are wrong. He had, he had one. One that change his whole personality, ideology, and identity. One happen in a single day, the day when he hit his head on a rock....
people focus too much on that word development..goku has great characterization and progression and some development..he has a backstory and he changes some views..he does not have character full arc change but hes not meant to as a static flat character who changes others...to me characterization is more important then character change..does a character stay true to who they are and act that way or not...sometimes its nice to just know what to expect from a character in how they are written cough like say zoro in one piece where you know hes loyal and has a bushido code and way to present himself and hes depressed inside cause he lost kuina before surpassing her thus will never be able to prove he could surpass her and he shows it on his face....thats not changing.....so i prefer that to true full character change like say vegeta or a pure evil dark villain into a hero nice person which is rare and usually half assed and only semi or not long lasting or unrealistic...
Gohan's character arc didn't end at Cell, in the Buu saga he grew up. He wasn't the impish kid who had outbursts of anger, he turned into a strong, confident, man who didn't reply on his anger to fight anymore.
I'm not so sure even characters with positive change arcs *need* to have an expiration date. True, once an arc is completed it's very common to simply reset the character because it's easier, but I don't see why it *has* to be that way. Case in point: in the newest chapter of the Super manga we discover that Vegeta actually regrets his actions in killing the Namekian village way back in the Frieza arc. He saves a Namekian child from Moro and says that because he owes the Namekians a debt he can't allow any more of them to die. Think how cool it would be for Vegeta to go from overcoming his pride to making up for the mistakes he's made. One of the things that's always bothered me about Vegeta's redemption is that he's never actually seems sorry for any of the bad things he did. His only regret seems to be that he didn't hug his son enough. That stadium of people he slaughtered? Meh. Or take Naruto. His arc used to be gaining people's respect and finding his place in the world. But he achieved that. His new arc is learning how not to be a crappy father, which, aside from being something new and different, also flows naturally from his character since he never had a father himself. Giving a character a brand new arc requires creativity and risk-taking, things a long-running show sometimes has in short supply, but in real life people don't have one arc. They have many. I don't see why characters can't be the same way.
To be fair Vegeta took special care in wording the wish to make sure the people at the tournament got revived. ( As well as making sure the bad guys didn't get revived)
I agree with the Naruto example, and personally, Toei should take notes from Naruto's character writing if they want to improve the quality and longevity of their future positive and negative arcs.
@@four-en-tee Blame Toriyama for not having the series after 10 year timeskip....So they forgot what to do with Goku Character which was becoming a sensei to let Uub become his successor,And while working that that character Arc Goku can work on being a better husband.They had a opportunity in the T.O.P Arc where Goku could had a Gohan Moment what he had with Cell,Which is him being bloodlust in his Ultra instinct form where he loses himself against somebody but once he become himself again he probably realize he's part of the problem when comes putting his universe at risk and that make him depressed and him contemplate retirement from fighting which sounds weird.
@@four-en-tee eh given the hate Boruto gets I can't find anyone who actually likes it , so I wouldn't take any notes from naruto given I can't seem to find any naturo fans that actually like Boruto and most depise his sons . >_> /
This is very much the same case for Superman. While Superman does have a few stories where he develops, most often he remains a static character, inspiring the people around him to change for the better and to always give their all. Best story to embody this idea? *_All Star Superman_*
@@saisameer8771 not all Captain America and deadpool and blade and wonder woman and magneto and joker and lex luthor and thanos and carnage and darkseid are flat arc characters because their cores and personalities are pretty much the same and remain consistent. Daredevil and spider man and batman and the flash and deathstroke are dynamic and round characters because they change and grow and evolve
I guess this is how I understand it. Vegeta’s character arc went from someone vile to someone kind. And then, since the series is ongoing or needs to continue, he at certain points return to that person who wants to be the most powerful of all, even if he already recognized Kakarot’s supremacy over him (that scene in Buu saga, and I think in Cell saga when Goku died and Vegeta kind of got mad because Goku has the guts to sacrifice himself like that.) On the other hand, Goku is just this forever kind and caring type of person all throughout beginning when he still doesn’t know what’s the difference between a boy and a girl, up to that moment when he tried to save the entire multiverse from extinction. Still, I hate some parts of Super because it kind of messes his character up (particularly that senzu bean scene in Trunks saga.)
ria fojas yeah but to be fair the real question was did goku really kiss chichi some say not shown in the manga so anime only some also say it’s a dub exclusive
jjfeed back I saw in the manga that he really said those things, so yeah. He didn’t kiss her based on canon story. I actually don’t like that idea because it made Goku a very weird type of a person.
I hate the people who try to change the dynamic. You have a guy who literally followed from childhood to adulthood and a new guy comes and all of a sudden he gets everything
Lets put it that way, for a never ending anime like dragon ball or pokemon the protagonist needs to be someone like goku or ash, someone Who never Changes, but thats not human at all, People change thats why nowadays vegeta is more popular than goku, because People can relate to vegeta, he makes mistakes, he learns from then he is human, goku Just does the same mistakes over and over again especially on super where he is a man Child, they Gt him. Without turning him. Into a Child, its ridículos. Im. Fine with z goku, not with the kid super versiom.
Yeah, Goku is very misunderstood, He's not a perfect character, but that does not in anyway make him a bad character, it makes him (Ironically for a Saiyan) Human. It's okay to be a _Flat Character_
I completely agree with you I think the reason I'm not to interested in goku anymore because I feel like his story really ended in z and I feel like super is more of a push to keep his story going more when it shouldn't that's how I feel at least
@@christophercolumns7243 no its not logic it's narrative focus story really ended in z and I feel that keeping the story going like this is just unnecessary narrative wise not saying I don't like super I just find goku the least interesting now
Learning about the existence of flat character arcs has really allowed me to stop thinking that my style of writing, that the characters I create, are somehow inferior just because they don't conform to the ever-present positive arc. This video really helped me, and I genuinely can't thank you enough for that.
I have been criticized for writing a flat arc villain once,and I didn't knew what flat arcs were befpre this video. The common criticism was : "Villains must hace a reawon to be evil or must have at least a bitno sympathetic backatory to makenthenaudoence resonate with him/her motives as well." I disagreed because some people just enjoy money and power.
But OG dragonball disproves this, that story was literally about goku learning and changing. Even post OGDB what about the part where goku struggles coming to terms with his saiyan heritage? Or Frieza forcing Goku to realize not everyone is worth sparing? Pretty big stuff that you strangely glossed over.
The thing many people who don't like Goku don't understand is, Goku is not a hero, he is a warrior and it runs in his blood, he is a warrior who has trained ever since he was a kid to become stronger, and what better way to become stronger than to fight. Now Goku is neither a hero nor a bad guy, he will do many heroic things using his power such as saving Earth on multiple occasions but his first and most important objective is to become the strongest. Therefore anyone saying Goku is selfish and irresponsible for always wanting to fight and not caring about others, it is not his job to be a hero but to be the strongest, however, he also manages to do many great things following the objective of becoming the strongest. And this is why Goku is my favorite character, he has one objective and he won't stop at anything to achieve it.
Hahaha so true. I love how much the show acknowledges this too. Almost to the point of an inside joke entertaining those who understand it. He will first fight for the sake of fighting always, THEN if everything goes wrong cry about this person being dead, whatever whatever. Lol always secondary, which really speaks to his characters single mindedness in his experiencing of strength. Exactly why Vegeta hates him. He actually IS naturally better.
Vegeta is my favourite character but I always felt that Goku had a lot of character development (he's my 3rd) because when you think about it, Goku's principles of what it means to get stronger evolve with each antagonists. Despite being a linear and simple evolution it is still one that fits the universe because it is the very fact that Goku's a simple guy that makes the show so good in a series where everyone overthinks everything imo.
vegeta and gohan fans who grew up only seeing z being jealous that their faves get shafted...that's why..they don't get this story began before either were invented with kid goku so we all love him..its like if luffy ichigo naruto or yusuke got replaced by their side characters later on..no..we started with this hero..hes the best...fuck replacing them...I didn't sign up to see gokus son and rival take his spot...gohan was never in my thoughts watching of dragonball first..i never thought oh his son should one day take over....I went on this journey with goku ..the gohan ssj 2 moment was a moment..it wasn't the story arc we followed..it was still gokus
@@razkable For sure! I love Gohan and I think the way Vegeta has developed is something only the insane life span on dragon ball can provide. But at the end of the day I love the show most for Goku.
For those that think I'm making a case that Goku can't be criticised, I'm not.
I'm simply arguing that using his lack of "development" as a reason to not like him is a poor one considering how many great characters have that same arc.
You are perfectly entitled to not like Goku.
Totally Not Mark Amen 🙏 bravo 👏
Goku needs his tale to end
Uub it’s uub turn to be the flat character arc
Hijacking pinned comment to say this video was obviously bloated to fit the 10 minute ad revenue mark and it's fucking obnoxious.
But isn't the whole premise of this video the fact the people prefer a positive arc to a flat one? Did you forget what you were doing after reading the vegeta love? People don't dislike Goku as much as they just prefer Vegeta, as Vegeta is an actual growing, thinking person.
@@DrWiley-fm3ik thank you
Great analysis. Some folk can miss the fact that, usually, a character is a tool to service the story being told. That's not to say that an interesting character can't be hindered by poor storytelling, it's just that expecting growth for growth's sake in a character like Goku is like admonishing the sun for not '"growing" past being the center of our solar system; both are where they need to be in order to facilitate growth elsewhere.
"Goku is Dragonball"
Well stated. He is the steady baseline that the entire series of characters orbits.
goku is dragon ball is a good statement but focusing on him all the time makes viewers not want to watch. i want to see some sub arcs with the weaker of the z fighters, they've all been tossed in the trash and forgotten about, gohan was my boy back in the day i wanted him to fight all the time but they shit canned him, pickels is just a toss in every now and then to setup for the real fight with goku or vegeta
in the tourney of power i was rooting for vegeta to come out with a W under his belt. but alas it was someone who had no prevalence in the whole dragon ball super series until the tourney
Well I've liked Original post, as I like your re-iteration of the narrator's quote, and both sub comments, as I both agree and learned something. A Vegeta mega fan, who has viewed the Z series, Ep23 or so being my favourite, "it's over 9,000!!!" (anti-heroes generally, Alex from A Clockwork Orange, McMurphy from One Flew Over, Harby/Pietre from Utopia S1 & 2 (Ch4, 2013, rarely seen, would highly recommend), Omar Little HBO's The Wire, Wayne from Wayne (UA-cam orig. production) etc.)..
@@KevinJDildonik One dayt? You mean one year in the same room of non-stop intense training one-on-one?
I wouldn't watch Super for the "Goku is Dragonball" feel. I'd watch Dragonball and to a lesser but still significant extent, DBZ for that feeling.
From the sounds of it, they really fucked up the canon by making Super. I'd say DBGT is more "Goku" than Super as well.
Shit happens though when everyone is a sellout.
G Spawn First of all Goku died for him twice, so he clearly loves him. Also there are many times in the manga and anime where goku and his family are chilling at home (ex. Before the cell games)
@@KevinJDildonik you mean the 8 that would have been destroyed if he hadn't said anything?
Wait... Goku's the 2020 Olympic Games mascot?!
Yeah I'm wondering if this is true.
I love Goku, so I think it'd be cool
Sounds like fun!
Nope, the official mascots are two boring toon shits. Shinzo Abe wearing a Mario hat will always be my real Olympics mascot
Goku is one of the ambassador mascots for the 2020 Olympic Games.
Yes
I feel like Goku's development into a fighter in OG DB could be considered as an arc. I first watched DBZ before DB and you'll notice where he gets most of his Z personality traits in DB. He learned not be arrogant and continue to train to get stronger from losing against Jackie Chun. He was taught to show mercy to his enemies by Android #8. He almost got his strength in a dishonest way against Korin but decided to instead complete Korin's challenge honestly as he didn't want to cheat his way out.
There's also the story of him accidentally killing his Grandpa in Oozaru form and willing to go up against the Red Ribbon army to get the last object his grandpa gave to him. And all his friends keeping this secret from him to not hurt him and only learning about how Grandpa Gohan really died as an adult.
There's also the arc of him accepting his Saiyan heritage after Vegeta's lament after him discrediting his heritage since Saiyans are inherently evil and they are planet brokers and Goku's only benevolent because of some accident as a kid. Basically meaning his personality's a mistake. Goku then accepted his heritage thanks to Vegeta revealing his dark past and actually showing emotion to him despite being so prideful. Vegeta also helped Gohan & Krillin on Namek and is the reason they are still alive. This showed Goku that Saiyans may be able to be redeemed and he then accepted his heritage. This can also be seen as an effect Vegeta may have had on Goku which is less obvious than the effect Goku's had on Vegeta.
Hope I'm making sense here to whoever that reads this.
Interesting analysis.
Commended.
yeah that made perfect sense. Goku is a hardcore Spiderman basically. He actually killed his uncle Ben, and learned the same lesson which is the root of all their heroicity.
He also developed in the debut Z. When Raditz tell Goku that he was a alien from a race of killer, he was denying his original race. After the Vegeta's death, he completely accepted his race by burying Vegeta.
@@broken75.20 Yeah I mention this in the last paragraph of this comment.
Actually, I think that flat characters actually do evolve. But not in the common sense of the term.
Their struggle is intern, they do not struggle to become a better person but they struggle to stay the same despite everything that's thrown at them.
And Goku is a good example of this: he is kind, forgiving and has a huge respect for what lives; he only kills when he has no other choice to avoid the world being destroyed.
- he doesn't kill Nappa although this one was responsible for the deaths of 4 of his friends and almost killed his son
- he spares Vegeta athough he tried to destroy the world and tortured his friends
- he gives some spare energy to Frieza to let him live on (alright he kills him afterwards but hey! he had just gone through his first ever super saiyen transformation which was a rage induced change after Krillin's death! I'll go back to this later)
- he wishes Buu to come back as someone good someday (you know... the one who destroyed planet Earth along with his family and most of his friends)
Goku may be foolish and selfish for many small things but he is selfless when it comes to protect what lives.
Despite everything he went through, he struggled hard to stay kind and forgiving when he could just have gone berzerk.
And to me, one thing that showed his inner struggles in the best way is precisely the first time ever he turned into a super saiyan:
He witnessed pure evil: Frieza doesn't only kill; he tortures physically and psychologically.
Most antagonists in the Dragon Ball universe have reasons to be evil: Vegeta was raised as a servant of Frieza who threatened his people and was led to believe he needed to be powerful to overthrow Frieza. The Androids, Cell included, were created and programmed to eliminate Goku by an vengeful scientist of the fallen Red Ribbon Army. Piccolo Daima was the evil part of Kami and even he just wanted to basically rule the world and get back his youth. Buu was created by magic as the ultimate killing being to serve the megalomaniac goals of Bibidi.
Frieza is on a whole other level. He already rules countless worlds and relishes in the suffering of the ones under his boots. He doesn't only whipe out those who stand in his way: he likes seeing them suffer. Frieza is an evil being like Goku had never ever seen before (and never ever saw after as far as I know).
And he killed Krillin before his very eyes. And I think we can all remember what Krillins first death at the hand of Tambourine did to him in DB: he went mad and even disobeyed Master Roshi, which means quite a lot.
Even worse: Having been revived by the Dragonballs already, Krillin was supposed to never be able to be brought back to life again.
Goku felt a rage he had never ever felt before at that time. Pure hatred.
Every single cell in his body cryed out for destruction.
Master Roshi acknowledges this, saying he feels Goku is struggling the hardest battle of his life: if he fails, he might become the worst threat to the universe.
Even Goku is aware of this as he tells Gohan to leave before he loses what is left of his sanity.
It's the first and only time ever that Goku tells his friends to leave to protect them from himself.
So yeah, Goku is a flat character. But man has he battled inside to stay the same.
Great analysis
Never thought through this point of view. Very interesting, I agree. Goku's struggle is to stay true to his truth despite the temptations to be someone else
Although I know he’s technically non canon, I think Goku’s ultimate nemesis is Baby. I think it was a genius move to pull off a villain that shares absolutely *none* of Goku’s virtues. More than anything, Goku is pure transparency and honesty. Baby is pure disloyalty and deception. Even Frieza has some semblance of a warrior’s dignity. But Baby? To him, literally *everything* that Goku values deserves nothing but contempt and mockery.
Nice essay 👏👏
As someone who wants to be a book author, I appreciate this point of view. It's a very interesting take on flat characters that I will take to heart in the future.
I expected this to be a dissection of the misinterpretation of Goku as a "noble and selfless hero" basically Superman type character. Instead I got a detailed lesson on how certain types of character arcs better suit different mediums. Not what I expected, but I was not disappointed.
Same here. Specially because the english dub completely changed his personality, changing him from someone who just likes to fight, to some kind of "hero"
@@cirojnascimento The English dub did not change Goku into a hero. In the Japanese manga and anime, Goku was a hero. DBS changed Goku into a character that just likes to fight due to an interview by Akira Toriyama after DBZ was over. Toriyama likes to subvert expectations if people think Goku is going to win he going to make him lose. So if people thought Goku was a hero he going to say he is not. But in Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z if you read the manga you will see he wrote Goku as a hero.
I believe when he said Goku is not a hero I think he was saying he is not a Hero like the Great Saiyaman, Goku is not going to run around a city looking for bad guys. But if some threaten to destroy the earth he is going to protect the earth. Kairi Yajuu Analysis does a good job of explaining this
@@sonnywoods6846 when did Goku ever try to be the Selfless Hero?
every fight he has ever been in has been for his own benefit which is usually fighting a strong and terrifying opponent.
Hell he even brought Freeza back and let him rampage again.
The entire dragon ball Saga was literally goku trying to either get his dragon ball back or get stronger and beat people up
literally half of dragon ball Z was caused by Goku fighting
and Super is no better
Goku only seemed like a Hero because his benefit usually results in a good ending for everyone else but it comes with a stupid risk just to satisfy goku.
even trunks pointed it out in the cell saga and Bulma and Krillin have constantly been pointing it out throughout dragon ball and dragon ball Z
@Krillindude I know all about that but to say that Akira Toriyama didn't write Goku to be a hero is still wrong. Because in the manga he is written as a hero. People use the American version but I am talking about the Japanese version of GOku. I don't watch the Englis version of Dragon Ball. So I don't know how Funimation depicted Goku. I only know how Goku was depicted in the Japanese version and he was a hero in the Japanese version Manga and Anime
@Krillindude Also When Toriyama made that comment in 1995 or 96 the Hope of the Universe comment came out in the I think 1999. So Toriyama was not talking about the Funimation version when he said he didn't like Goku looking like a hero. Like I said the problem with Toriyama comment is that he made Goku look like a hero in his own manga. Toriyama Contradicts himself when he says that he didn't want Goku depicted as a hero, but jsut a guy that love to fight.
The world doesn't change Goku, Goku changes the world around him
Simple and best explanation
This deserves more likes
Sounds like a Chuck Norris Joke XD
Dragon Ball Super changed Goku.
@@isaiahdaniels5643 😂
The misunderstood grandpa of all main anime protagonists
I think you meant grandma, since Goku's Japanese VA is an old Japanese lady.
He Meant Super Sayian Roshi
gokus relatively the same and yes hes only got a few emotions and yes hes made some mistakes and has flaws but because of those hes actually a well written character and even without them he would be a good hero...characterization is more than just development..thats part of it but only one part and isn't vital for me in a story even for the main character...all of gokus friends from heel turned enemies are developed aroundhim and thanks to him...that's all I need...gokus not a gary stu outside of the final freeza fight..hes not static..we seen him grow..people just didn't watch gt or og db..they look at z and super as if their the only shows that exist..its rather funny how people define a good character by change as if gokus suppose to change from the good person he was as a kid..he could fly kinta un was offered the role of guardian of earth for his unselfish nature and allowed to keep his body to train when he died ..but apparently he needs to change cause reasons...vegeta fans cant stand how shitty vegeta is treated because he deserves it...hes not suppose to be a hero..goku turned him into one...he actually is developed in gt..unlike in super where he never learns...people love vegeta but the dude was willing to kill nappa didn't care about raditz was willing to blow up earth twice has no regard for goku or his son or wife and risks humanity safety just for a brawl with goku and then when he realizes he cant stop buu he sacrificed himself but out of necessity more than being humble like goku did vs cell which he was copying...not to mention beating up gohan 3 times and then shitting on him later too..vegetas a douche...
@@razkable and goku is more boring and predictable than fat buu and fat buu is asleep most the time
You mean Kenshiro?
This is so true because a child can understand it without overthinking.
In my country everyone said, hey let's watch Goku, we didn't say let's watch Dragon Ball. Goku, as he stated, is Dragon Ball.
So glad I live in your country
Same in my country
Pilipino ka ano?
Your country. I'm guessing u mean Mexico? Japan? America?
goku is so much dragonball hes in every movie and he helps gohan goku jr. as well...they get credit but goku helped them too
I always like Goku as a character. I know many folks like the "change of heart/redemption" trope like with Tein, Piccolo, and Vegeta (I do to), but honestly it's been done to death by other mediums.
Goku however, he has this unique trait. He is a good guy, but not in a "Justice of the universe" type good .He's just someone who like to help anyone because he's generally a nice person. Yes he does like to fight, but he also doesn't want innocent people and animals to get hurt. Another thing is...he isn't perfect. (insert Cell joke here). He does make mistakes, or make certain situations worse but he usually makes up for it.
Of coarse there's the bad dad trope. Goku doesn't know how to be a good dad, but he isn't a bad dad. Many people forgotten that he did risked his life for Gohan, actually spent time with him during the timeskip before the androids arrived, trained with him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/Room of Spirit and Time, and actually believed in him with his strength. As for Goten, he was dead but he is currently living with him. Oh and Goten doesn't mind if his dad does want to train somewhere.
Finally, Goku has impacted other characters in many ways. For some changes there ways, like how Yamcha was a bandit, Krillin was a trouble making cheater, Tein being misguided by his Superiors from the Krane school, and Vegeta from being a ruthless prince who believed an Elite could never be surpassed. I would include Piccolo but I feel Gohan had more impact.
Adding on to that, what Super did with the majority of Goku's character development was pretty poor in all honesty. From being the good guy who wouldn't risk lives, to being a supposedly good guy who would risk a multiverse of lives for a fight. Now that's next level stupid.
@@Cabolt44 Well to be fair, it's not like Goku knew about Zeno was going to erase the universes before hand. When Zeno first suggest it at the end of the U6 arc there was no mention of destroying multiverses. Not to mention he was planning on destroying anyway. Beerus didn't know either but was just scared that Goku might upset him. igotta say, Bergamo sure made it convincing. Even to the fandom lol.
JJDude very well said!!
@@burgerkingJ Well Bergamo is a fox so yea that helps. However that's not really the issue. They played around with his character too much in DBS and in a lot of ways Toei didn't know who Goku was (which is super weird considering Goku is Toei's mascot). I think the manga did a better job at explaining that part (even though it fails in other aspects).
@@Cabolt44 That's a fair point. Though I do give them some slack. I think they tried to express the other traits of his character. A bit too much if I'm being honest. But hey, Goku had his goofy moments too in the series. That's just me though.
Using movie frames in a video?
You have courage, young child.
Indeed
_1 hour later_
*COPPY STRIKE*
Well the full movie was uploaded onto youtube, and reached a million views before getting striked. twitter.com/imsaltyt/status/1090003242409385986?s=21
@@luigiplayer14 You absolute good fking lord, accept my like and my kneecap. *DOWNLOADED*
@@luigiplayer14 I downloaded it.
I've always loved Goku since i was a baby because he's so optimistic and i like being surrounded by positive energy plus he motivates me
😁
"To being the mascot of the 2020 Olympic Games"
That aged poorly.
-Damn you COVID-19-
Goku really does seem to be vulnerable to viruses doesn't he?
GrimoireOfTheSage I- 💀 never thought of it like that
I mean he could still be a mascot for the next olympic games.
From the looks of it as of today it may still be happening
Goku was supposed to the mascot of the Olymics Games!?
Possitive, Flat and Negative arcs are neiter bad nor good the trick is how do you use them, In what moment you could use them and why.
People who say flat character arcs are bad have never seen back to the Future or Ghostbusters
So in other words ""Tropes Are Tools"
AgentKyo yep
people confuse and overrate development over characterization now a days...a character changing is fine but so is their original persona...who they are matters as much as who someone else becomes..
@@AgentKyo Exactly.
"Goku is dragonball" dont let my mom hear that.
dani ortega I don’t get it
@@jordana4936 it's a joke about moms not understanding what certain labels refer to. It's like when your mom refers to all consoles as a Nintendo, or every pokemon as Pikachu. So if "Goku is Dragonball", the joke is that Dani's mom may flip the names around too much.
Anase Skyrider ahhhhh got ya makes sense now thanks :)
Lol like the big green dub where every attack is a kamehameha
Big green dead :(
Extremely well explained, I really enjoyed this and learned something. Goku has always been my number 1, and I’m glad that you shed light on just how important he is. Thank you
Goku still acts like a 10 year old in his 50s and he supports that as compelling
@@ThatAnimeSnob Dude that's his character he always acted like that
@@ThatAnimeSnob 1. Goku is not 50. He's 40-something
2. You're obviously here to troll. The video went deep than "oh goku acts 10 and that's why he's a good character"
@@ThatAnimeSnob
Only in TOEI fillers, not in the manga.
@3rd Way
I don't understand how people don't see that Frieza has now developed as a character, he is still bad, but not as bad as before, his wish was also to be 5cm taller while Vegeta thought it is to become immortal, if Frieza was the same as before then Vegeta would have been correct, but that wasn't the case.
I've always liked Goku, but for different reasons. This just gives me even more of a reason to like him because I can UNDERSTAND the value of a character like him. I understand what he is and how he works. A lot of people don't get that and immediately throw him in the trash, especially new newcomers, so I personally will suggest this video to newcomers to the series who feels that way towards Goku.
Deadbeat Valentine I actually think this video is more for old fans that grew up with the bad Funimation dub, since they watched a bad version of the series with a bad and inaccurate script but still well said
just watch abridged then watch the show and you'll be way more thankful for how he thinks
Most people (those who aren't clout chasers or posers) appreciate goku because they watched the OG Dragon Ball. That story has aged very well in terms of storytelling for Goku. DBZ had its ups and downs (talkin bout the japanese and kai dub btw for those "technical" people) but he did mature compared to his Dragon Ball version. Super though, they completely reversed his whole character development in DBZ and even the last arc of DB and turned into his past self, essentially. They basically GT goku'd him without having to turn him into a child.
Deadbeat Valentine Nice name.
KankSchlap good analysis
This is a very unique take on the defense of Goku's character. People often just scramble to find evidence that Goku *does* develop, but instead you flat out say he stays the same all throughtout, but that's a good thing. You've definitely got me convinced.
But it's not true... I've said this before, Goku had some lessons in humility he had to learn from Mr Popo, as well as coming to "own" his identity as a Saiyan in a way that works for him, because the thought used to disgust him, he also had other challenging developments, such as the realization he couldn't just let Frieza go the same way he did with Vegeta, owning up that he didn't understand his son doesn't want to fight Cell, and sacrificing himself for it along with the realization that he can often bring more harm and danger than good.... so no, Goku does not just "stay the same" and it's a backhanded argument to say so
A note on Goku's character development that I find interesting, actually. To say he develops as much as Vegeta is wrong, even as a Goku fanboy, I can agree with that. But Goku seems to be hated so much because his development is opposite to that of Vegeta's. Vegeta appears as a savage bloodthirsty Saiyan but by Buu Saga, he learns to become an Earthling. Of course, he's still a Saiyan and has those moments, but we see him become more sincere and caring. Meanwhile, Goku is an Earthling who comes to terms with his Saiyan biology... he learns to become more selfish, to enjoy the fight. That's why in Super, he can come off as so obnoxious and terrible. People just don't see that his flaws might be on purpose. Just a fun thing to think about that I personally love. It's proved further by the end of the Broly movie, with what he says to Broly.
"My name's Goku... but you, Broly, can call me Kakarot!" and they both smile. wholesome af.
@@smirks_ he develops as much as Vegeta
Goku is a main character who in the Saiyan arc, has to come to terms with the fact that he himself is a Saiyan (as seen when he looks with shock when Raditz tells him about him and his race). He has to learn how to take a life when necessary after he defeats Freeza, which is why he helps Gohan kill Cell and why he himself kills yakon and Boo later. As a kid, he lacked a moral compass when it came to that stuff, which is why after he trained under Kami (God aka an old man in the sky with a stick), only then did we see an unwillingness for him to kill. To say Goku remains same from child to adult is false, his Saiyan Heritage changes him to risk the world for the sake of a fight, something he didn't do as a child. He kills early on because he is a kid with no guidance, gains a heart under Kami and then learns to do it when necessary after beating freeza.
@@betarugula8886
I think it's due to the fact most of those developments really don't feel like serious struggles to most people
@@ripper3052 same 2 u
Goku has something unique ,that other characters dont have .
That what makes him unique
There is no one like Goku
In the world we are shown yeah there is no one like him but his traits are just eating a lot, being good and martial arts genius. In early parts of the show I liked how one of his other traits like big love and respect for nature was shown.
Until maybe cell saga or even buu saga he was fine but in super he became just awful. While Vegeta is more strict, proud and doesn't go soft against his opponents at least he changed so much that he understands that probably sometimes he is too proud or strict. When his second child is soon to be born he still wants to look tough but in many many scenes we see how much he changed and how he cares about his family. He is ready to give up his motivation in life which is fighting to stay by his family while Goku is like "I was dead when my kids were born so what is the problem let's go fight". In super Goku is dumb beyond belief in that show and this is why Vegeta honestly won in voting.
@@vadimpolukejev374 you are right but i think the behavoir akira designed for goku is the best for me ,but the new creator didnt really understood goku's behaviour and made him look dumb and thats what i hate about dbs the most .
Yeah, because if someone copy Goku they will get Copyrighted
Luffy is basically a dumber more emotional Goku.
Gon pretty has all of gokus traits only better developed.
Everyone loving those characters who had a change of heart or character development but forget that goku being the main, hes the reason those characters changed themselves, ever since the start of dragon ball
Facts
@@Chosengaming2001 he's the positive flat arc who changes the world into the better there's also the negative flat character who changes the world around them into the worse joker and Johan liebert are examples of this
@@Anubis-xk4ht Could it be called something other than "flat arc"? I get what their saying, but the definition of an arc is a line that curves. i.e. "not flat"
@@biteme9486 flat characters aren't one dimensional as long they're done right and well executed and serve their part in the story, many people will shit on static characters while favouring other characters exactly the same like everyone seems to love uncle iroh from ATLA all in execution
Goku is Superman. A great character who changes his world for the better, but is underappreciated by most fans and written horribly by people who don't understand his character.
"Amazing. How do you do it, Kakarot?
You've always been like this, ever since the day I first met you; always ready to meet the next challenge, even if it's bigger than you are...
It was the same on Namek. You had improved so much that it made Recoome like he was standing still. Your power had increased so dramatically since our battle on Earth that I thought you had done it, I thought that you had become a Super Saiyan! It tore me apart! How could a low-class soldier accomplish so easily what I...I had to struggle my whole life to achieve!?
After three millennia, it has finally happened; a new Super Saiyan has emerged, and, somehow, I have become this pauper's witness. Then at last, it happened. I too transformed. After living every moment of every day for the singular purpose of surpassing you, I finally became a Super Saiyan myself, the Prince had reclaimed his throne and fulfilled his destiny. But no matter how strong I became, your power still exceeded mine.
At first, I thought it was your loved ones; that it was your instinct to protect them that spurred you on and pushed you beyond your limits. But then I found myself with a family of my own, and my power... didn't increase at all.
I used to fight for the sheer of pleasure of it; for the thrill of the hunt, oh I had the strength unmeasurable - I spared no one. And yet, you showed mercy to everyone, even your fiercest enemies, even me! Yet, you never fought to kill, or for revenge. Only to test your limits and to push yourself beyond them, to become the strongest you could possibly be. How can a Saiyan fight like that and at the same time be so gentle that he wouldn't hurt a fly? It makes me angry just thinking about it! But, perhaps it is my anger that has made me blind to the truth for so long. I see it now, this day has made it all too clear.
You're better than me Kakarot. You are the best. "
Best example of how important goku's arc is
@Gian Ruiz its vegetas own words.nothing to laugh about
R Reed this quote from vegeta pretty much explains gokus whole character
It's so true that goku changes the world around him because it's because of goku that piccolo and vegeta could have such great character development. All though i do think that goku also has character development too.
@@lightninginqc7837 yeah it's really subtle but Goku does have some solid character development, mostly becoming more emotionally mature.
hey is that my beat in the background at like 7:00
...wtf is this real?
Hey jake
How did this hotboi go unnoticed for so long?
holy shit its Jakey!
L0
Goku's social ineptitude never stops making me laugh. Hes Goofy and it's fun.
Fr his immaturity is what i like about him tbh
Goku’s character arc is changing the world around him
Djsjaid You can say the same thing about a majority of protagonist
@@solitary2 Not really most protagonists do stuff then they get a outcome and will never be mentioned outside that arc but Goku does things that impacts the world like him versus Demon King Piccolo he is known for that and is always somewhat remembered as that the world doesn't impact him he forms the world as when Goku fights there was always a social impact like when Mr.Satan gets Satan City that's a social impact that was triggered by Goku
@@mindofGOAT bruh nearly all protagonists within a overlaying plotline affect the world and plot, what u on about? Naruto affected the world, luffy effected the world way more than goku in fact, eren, guts and many more
@@KarthikArmstrong
Ahem mate lemme tell you what i'm on about:
Goku creates short term impacts and long term impacts look at Cell if Goku didn't attack red ribbon would there be a Cell no there wouldn't that's a long term impact it affected the world not reacted to the world
Also look at Buu if Goku never had Gohan or Goten, never met vegeta, never met the z fighters etc their wouldn't be a Fat Buu I know Goku doesn't always affect the world but his presence in Earth created the BUU SAGA there is point to be made here.
Goku does react to world but he creates future points of interest and storylines that become long term effects of his actions
@@KarthikArmstrong Luffy never has his own arc either. He, in fact, is the best example for a flat character arc. He barely undergoes any changes. Even the life changing moments he lives through don't change his character a lot, if at all, in the story afterwards.
No..
It's not that people misunderstand him. It's that people choose not to understand him. He's a very easy character to understand.
@@KevinJDildonik That's a stretch.
No, it's that toriyama is a bad action writer.
@@fightingmedialounge519 He sure has written an extremely popular and successful action fighting show for a bad action writer. 🤔
@@KevinJDildonik You didn't Watch the Anime. Go Watch the Anime Again. Goku actually Saved All the Universes with the Tournament and Giving at least a Chance to the Universes to Survived and to Zeno Mind Think that the No Growing of the Universes cannot be Changed. Goku didn't Know of the Rules of the Tournament until the Exhibition Tournament Came out. He Just Wanted a Tournament jus Like the Universe 6 vs 7. Zeno is the True Villain that Peoples don't Want to see.
@@KevinJDildonik goku was a villain long before that
Hope you guys enjoyed the video! Don't forget to leave a like or dislike on the video! SUPER DUPER HELPS!
Love it as always. Fun and educational. Well played.
What county you from ?
@@peterstafford26 Ireland.
Yeah I'm from Ireland too. I mean what county, like I'm from wexford
Totally Not Mark Not really sure about using movie stills. You spoiled a pretty big moment from Dragon Ball Super: Broly
Goku actually does have character development. OG Dragonball was an entire learning experience for him as he grew to realize there’s always someone stronger, to not give in to his own primal rage, to trust in his own abilities, etc.
Then in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, we have him accepting his heritage and getting to understand that it is what actually makes him, well, him. And in the battle with Cell he accepts that his son has surpassed him and passes him the torch, while also accepting his own mistakes and “cleaning up his mess” by sacrificing himself when Cell self destructs. Plus deciding not to come back, and giving the youth more chances to save the world with the Buu arc. Freeza saga Goku would’ve fought Majin Vegeta in a heartbeat with no threats at all but Goku had grown to be a bit more logical.
I swear, some of this didn't even happen.
It's more character evolution
@@N.N01 it did happen
@@tatocezar1 when? When did Goku learn in to not give into his primal rage? Or to trust in his own abilities?
@@N.N01 there is a whole tv series about it , its called DragonBall 1984
My boi Goku is the most interesting, because his will infects the people he meets. Even Frieza's hand slips these days.
Holyspecter Honestly. Well said mate.
Ha, the "My hand slipped" joke, good one my guy.
Oz why tho?
ITS bullzie Then you must hate Naruto and Luffy.
Frieza kinda likes him but they’re still enemies
You make the type of videos that have so much quality that I want to start watching it again immediately after i see it.
Now that's an incredible compliment. I'm thrilled you enjoyed it so much friend :)
@@TotallyNotMark you're great my man. Keep up the fantastic work!
As much as I love them I think TFS is the most responsible for how a lot of people view Goku these days.
They are
They ar- oh
Whats TFS?? xD really tho...
@@erickhernandezcrispin9671 Team Four Star
Matthew Hilliker Its the number one fact!!
Interesting. So the flat character arc doesn’t have to do with how the character reacts to the world, but how the world views the character
Ultim8 Lifeform now that’s epic 😂
Views and changes the world around them. That and, another factor in how to do the flat arc, test the character's beliefs. Give them temptations to leave their path.
Ultim8 Lifeform DONT be a flat earther please
Watching Z immediately after Dragon Ball really puts things in perspective for how the other characters see him. Yeah, Goku had been everyone’s hero up to then, but he was still had comprehensible strength compared to theirs. Imo his power up from King Kai’s training is his most important power up of the series because it was the first time he looked leaps and bounds above everyone else, and they basically saw him as the (fashionably late) messiah first when he arrived to face Nappa and Vegeta.
More people need to see this. Goku is a good character for his respective arc. It's sad to see people criticize him for something that isnt bad.
Lol, it’s hilarious. Other characters like Naruto are the same as goku and yet people don’t seem to realize that or just don’t care.
John Zhou Naruto is Naruto because of Goku too everybody knows Kishimoto took inspiration from dragon ball
@@nnightkingj and Toryiama took inspiration from Superman (flat arc) for Sayan Saga, Star Wars (positive arc) for Namek Saga and Terminator ( ;) ) for Android Saga.
Superman has a flat character arc as its roots (early comics design for long series) and no one complain about.
Batman too I guess (detective comics like sherlock holmes, who has a flat arc too, for long series of short story).
TLDR: Flat arcs are a thing since eons
albert taco yes he loosely took inspiration from super man nobody is denying that but kishimoto stated it himself goku originally took inspiration from journey to the west and the monkey king he wasn't technically an alien until dbz but you have no proof besides coincidence to say he took inspiration from terminator and star wars but gokus arc and character is different from superman and isn't so flat as this video states but to conclude I never said it was bad to take inspiration from something unless it's a blatant copy and paste without its own image
@@nnightkingj lol I know that journey to the west Son Wu Kong is the base of Son Goku (Captain Obvious?) but Sayan saga is what makes the show popular in western part of the world, since Journey to the West is not as relatable, as a young man coming from space (-tldr : Superman).
Goku's character is my favourite, it's like he's an unyielding object that is being pressured from all sides to change its form. Goku shall be Goku, always.
Goku: What does "misunderstood" mean?
Its a food like mariage
@@wallycastagnir *It's a
@@wallycastagnir "an food" lmao
@@billrobertjoe 1time was enough dude
You wouldnt understand.
Dude i love goku i love his carefree personality and i love how he can joke around but also understand how serious a situation is but also take it with a grain of salt. Goku is awesome favorite character of the whlle serious and his father i also love him aa well.
Me too dude goku is the best I dont care what the haters about to says
@@Abrold yup I agree I like vegeta but not as much as goku
@@xojah178 yeah dude goku is so awesome and so painful that’s why I freaking love him so much I hope one day goku will became omnipotent like toad by end of db series that’s would be badass as well
Thats true and i agree for z goku, not the super versiom.
I admit too many people who said they never watched Dragon Ball when it literally came on right next to Dragon Ball Z on Toonami. That's another reason why Goku is a misunderstood character
I watched Kai but really all this time they could’ve watched dragon ball
I didn't know Goku was the mascot for the 2020 Olympics
I thought it was a weird joke. Turns out it's true... Yay?
@@tybraker27 Stop hating on Goku lol
@@BardocksChild I love Goku, I just didn't expect him to be the mascot for the Olympics.
@@tybraker27 I know it was a joke sometimes i just try to be funny but Goku does have a character in him that's what most people understand it's not about the power or his strength it's about his character and his will to fight yes he does fight and eat to get stronger yes he still does that but since then Goku has become earths greatest protecter and a hero
@@tybraker27 actually, its he is not. I looked it up and and 2020 Games’ ambassador. The official mascot name is Miraitowa, a made up friendly super hero !!
Goku changed Vegeta. Vegeta didn't change by himself.
Jesus died and rose again to save you from hell. These Bible verses explain how you can accept Jesus as your savior and have eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 3:23, 3:10, 5:12, 6:23, 5:8-9, 10:9-10, 10:13, 10:17, 8:28, Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 11:1-3, James 1:17, 2 Peter 3:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.) :)
@@Sunshine215clfh goku died for us twice
Well actually Vegeta's willingness to accept what Goku was trying to get a cross is what changed Vegeta so technically Vegeta changed himself.
@@Sunshine215clfh Thank you for sharing that. It looks as though that people these days are caught up in themselves and the world of entertainment that they don't focus on our only Saviour Jesus Christ.
Bulma and his kids changed Vegeta.
An absolutely phenomenal video! I think that people often forget our stories require at least one character with a flat arc to define to the audience what is good or what is evil. The fact is that characters like Piccolo or Vegeta would not exist with characters like Goku. Accordingly, some of the world's most beloved character have flat-arcs. These include Captain America, Thanos, the Joker, and even Obi-Wan Kenobi.
These are the types of characters who refuse to let the world change them and instead change the world. They shape the entire story and often teach the audience a moral about perseverance or a warning about true evil. I think this kind of characters are some of the most inspiring ever made. They show you that anyone including you can make a difference and change the world, hopefully for the better. I find that very encouraging and inspiring indeed!
Hello There!
obi wan only has a positive arc if you take in the prequels development
Yes, Vegeta works _because_ of Goku. I think a lot of fan fiction (not naming names) misunderstands this when using Vegeta, because they approach it from the standpoint that Vegeta was cheated by Toriyama, and they end up just exchanging Goku for Vegeta.
@@monkey.brains Not exactly. Obi-Wan only has a slight positive arc as he continuously gets more experiance and skill as a Jedi, but I cannot justifiably call that a real positive arc because literally every single character experiences this with time. This including Goku who who was literally just established as a flat character in this very video.
Character-wise Kenobi does not significantly develop because he is already given many positive qualities. In fact, you cannot really ascribe any negative qualites to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's role in Star Wars is to further Anakin's and later Luke's development. That's a character changing the world, not the world changing the character.
Obi-Wan is also there to be an ideal Jedi so we can compare him to Anakin, a fallen Jedi. He's a foil to Anakin and gives the audience a standard to compare other characters to.
Thanos is not a flat arc, he's a negative arc.
I find it fascinating that, when the narrative has the world around a protagonist change in any fundamental capacity, people are more likely to say they enjoy the narrative, while in scenarios in which the world causes the protagonist to change in any fundamental capacity, people are more likely to say that they enjoy the protagonist.
Bucko eloquently said my friend well done
This is due to two key aspects of humans as beings. 1: We like things that are similar to us because we can understand these other things through our own experiences. 2: Humans are not static, we change with each day that passes in our lives. As such, elements of a story that are familiar to us are more likeable, and thus, the changing elements are the most charimastic part.
So Goku may be flat, but not shalllow at all. Thats deep.
❤️
Quick little thing I'd like to add about the tenability of different types of arcs:
You're absolutely right that writers shouldn't attempt to retread a character's arc like in the case of Vegeta for the sake of keeping them relevant, because that's lazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that after a character's "positive" arc is finished, the only path forward is to either retcon that character's personality to make them interesting again, or to dispense with them entirely, but there is another option, namely setting up _new_ arcs.
No person is ever done changing/growing, and that fact translates to fictional characters. Take the still-relevant and ever compelling character of Iron Man for example. You could argue that after his first movie, his arc was "completed." While still a character suffering from egotism/arrogance-albeit less so than when the movie started-he has become more conscious of the suffering of others and has made an active decision to use his company/resources to help alleviate it. He has overcome his selfishness.
However, there’s still more to deal with. In The Avengers, Tony’s arrogance/narcissism are challenged by the likes of people like Captain America, and he ultimately puts them aside in favor of working as part of a team, a cause bigger than himself. The most recent films like Civil War and Infinity War are filled with some of Tony’s best material (thanks to Markus and McFeely) like dealing with his past trauma; material that was still able to be crafted *after* Tony had arguably completed multiple arcs. This is something most of Toei’s writers just don’t seem to understand for characters like Vegeta or Piccolo.
Again, this is a very minor nitpick/tangent. Great video as always!
Oh I absolutely agree with setting up a new account system. Though what I'm arguing is that it significantly more difficult and less reliable than relying on a flat character arc type like Goku for a long running series like dragon Ball. That's why my closing point is claiming Goku is dragon Ball. He's perfect for a show of that nature.
But yes, someone like Vegeta can begin a new arc. It's just very difficult to create one.
I'd like to present another side to this:
Iron Man's arcs in those movies work so well is because they are still founded in the central issue of Iron Man and his own self interest/focus. instead of being egotistical, he's so focused on his own viewpoint and his own mistakes that he forgot how to deal with other people.
With cases like Vegeta, it doesn't really work as well. Vegeta's arc in Super about being a teacher to Cabba is well done and all but it loses some impact because Vegeta being a teacher or interacting that way wasn't really something that was set up in the beginning, unlike his sociopathy and his pride. Yes, it is an extension of his redemption as it showcases him passing on his knowledge to another person for their benefit but he never had set up with a mentor figure or being a mentor before hand. It's also why Vegeta's scenes with Trunks and Bulla are so impactful: because his inability to be a proper father figure was due to his sociopathy and pride.
I'm not saying it's bad writing at all but I am saying that you only get one establishment of a character and unless you are REALLY dedicated or talented to introduce several key flaws to a character in said establishment in order that have these similar arcs, you only get one arc related to the core of their character (similar to how you can only experience something for the first time only once.)
@@TotallyNotMark I would say that they have set him up with one. Specifically vegeta the teacher with cabba. Passing on the saiyan tradition of growing in strength and pride
Why the hell are we writing huge paragraphs?
Jay Weinsten, someone has copied your comment. His name is Lawof Cinema.
Goku, as shown by many episodes, is pure of good. He is the only character in Dragonball that has no trace of evil in him.
Chi Chi and Blue Launch can ride the nimbus too. Later, Gohan rides the Kinto-un. So that’s three characters that were canonically pure of heart also.
Meriza Kewel I agree. But my only point was purity of heart is stated as required to ride the nimbus. Those three all are shown to be able to ride it, though Bulma, Krillin, and Rosho cannot.
@Midoriya Izuku he isn't. Gohan and Goten are arguably purer than him. Because they don't care about fighting.
Kevin Zefi fighting doesn’t decide in the factor of being pure??
*Laughs in Broly.*
No wonder Zeno is so interested in Goku. He's just that guy who's cool with everyone. I always liked Goku. But you made me like him even more actually.
I think Zeno is the same as Goku in many respects. And Frieza and Goku are also the same as well. This is the first video that I know of that pointed that fact out.
Zen-Oh*
PK Lo goku always like his friends and allies more then naruto he care about them more then naruto so yeah
I used to like Goku when i was younger and dragonball z just started airing on tv but now looking back i realised he actually is a massive failure as a father and the worst husband and friend to have. Heck Vegeta who wasn't even the family man type did way better on those aspects than Goku ever did. Bulma also stated that Goku never visits his friends because he is too busy training. That's all Goku does.. Train, fight and don't give a shit about anything else lol. He literally abandoned his family.
@@KiteTijink if he doesnt care about his family why does he protect them? why did he even have children?
But he's the "hope of the universe" isn't he?
Multiverse
No he's "The Super Saiyan. Son Goku!!!!"
MaxismellionMus is a crying.
Not really his fault
"I am the bacon in the fridge for all living things that cry out in hunger!"
> Saves the Earth and universe countless times and sacrifices himself twice
Fandom: 😴
> Doesn’t regulate the inhabitance (which is the job of the Kai and GoD) of the universe and isn’t lovey dovey enough with his wife
Fandom: “hEs A sHitTy pErSoN, hE hAtEs hIS fAmiLy”
I love the guys of destruction GoD's are awesome :P
Saves from himself
I gotta agree. I have to say, a father who sacrificed his life more than once for the sake of everyone around him is the best father ever.
I always roll my eyes when the fandom says Goku is a “shitty father”, when he literally died twice protecting his son from harm. Not to mention in the Bojack movie he broke the laws of nature by punching Bojack from beyond the grave just to save Gohan. He’s not the perfect parent but he’s far from a shitty one
@@RenzyTheGreat
Same, dude. You do know it was TFS that hammered that meme into everyone's heads, and then somehow it got turned into a "fact"?
So, A friend showed me this video, and I finally found the words to describe how I feel about Goku. He asked me how if I felt Goku was a good character and I responded by saying that “He’s a good character for what he’s designed to do, and that’s to be the story telling device that we see the world through. He’s not designed to grow around the story, Akira Toriyama made Goku so that the story evolves and grows around Goku.”
Wait, Goku is the mascot for the 2020 Olympics? When? HOW?
Goku, Pikachu and Mario. Tokio 2020 olympics.
@@sosapablo1995 2020. Cuz Japan
Being Goku is one of the most popular characters to ever come out of Japan, it should be no surprise he has been picked for one of the mascots for the 2020 Olympic Games.
Relax, Goku isn't even top 10. You're forgetting the renaissance of animation, the birth of animation with Disney and many other classic decades. You ask a random-er who Goku is, you'll likely get stares of confusion. However you ask anyone between speaking age and 70 who sponge bob. mickey mouse or spider-man is, you'll get a standard answer. These characters are more popular than Goku too.
@@sosapablo1995 No they won' t be. That's ridiculous and an insane rights issue. Miraitowa is the mascot.
www.olympic.org/tokyo-2020-mascot
Really well done. the same kind of people would call Superman "boring" due to his characteristics
@thereal MCPM preach
@thereal MCPM it means I agree
Bonnie Knight Comic Superman is actually really interesting. The movies just turn him into some bland stoic alien who can’t understand humans. In the comics and even some of the cartoons he acts like a actual real person: which he is. It doesn’t make any sense for him to act the way he does in the movies, the earth is his home, he was raised under human customs. Why wouldn’t he act human?
Superman powers are completely natural of his nature, goku did training. And got better then what saiyans are naturally.
He may not be the most complex character.....
He's still one of my favourite characters.
I completely agree with EVERYTHING you said. I don't care for his portrayal in Super, but I think Goku is a wonderful character in all of the others.
True
Finally! Someone who doesn’t follow stupid character memes and actually knows what Goku is all about!
Character memes are annoying. It's like people follow them just to get on a band wagon.
I hate character memes to such as goku isn't a good father like I mean yeah he does have his moments but in a whole goku can be as good as a father as vegeta
@@pizzaguy1127 exactly, people take the TFS jokes too seriously, Goku may not be a perfect father or husband but he always goes out of his way to protect the ones he loves the most
@@aishakamara3112 I kinda agree, but Vegeta is more of a better father than Goku tbh.
Jacen Bonds I disagree. Goku has always been a good father to Gohan ever since he was born, and always went out of his way to protect him in Z, even Goten, though he wasn’t around too much for his early beginnings. Vegeta too became a father in the Cell arc but was so shitty and selfish towards Trunks and didn’t even care about him until he was killed by Cell. It took him pretty much years to finally put his family first. Even though Vegeta has better traits in Super now, more than Goku to an extent, I believe that overall Goku is a better parent compared to Vegeta. To be fair though, they are completely different characters and have their own way of parenting, so I guess that are both good in their own way.
people often overlook that Goku is responsable for every Character fighting for the good in this series, Krillin,Tien,Yamcha,Piccolo,Gohan,Goten,Vegeta,Trunks,17,18 (&soon prob Broly) all are there because Goku did something at one point in the Series which caused a change in their Character the best example is roshis speak in the TOP during MUI vs Jiren everyone is there because of goku and goku is there because of everyone
nobody has overlook anything. Doesnt change the fact that goku is horrible written character all he does is fight nothin else, atleast in super he has an actual job and share with his family and grandaughter PAN, THATS ACTUALLY GOOD, but nope, fanboys just want to see goku next level, next stupid fucking transformation, his next big numbers, the same stupid ass punch and kick we have seen a bazillion of time, no new techiniques or creatives way of beating his enemies like ROSHI DID IN THE TOURNAMENT OF POWER!!
It's almost like the entire anime is based off of fighting. Y'know punches and kicks?
Seriously though, the 'horribly written character' of the series is the sole reason why you have characters that people love to jerk off like Vegeta, or Piccolo.
@@raulrojas9253 H-A-T-E-R
@@raulrojas9253 Yeah guy just go away Goku learn new technique all the time so not sure what your talking about Out of all the character the Kaioken The God bind the fusion technique the teleportation attack . this is a show about fighting get the fuck out of here with this nonsense .
Raul Rojas you don’t get the series don’t you? The series is about goku getting stronger and fight not saving people like my hero or have a mighty position like naruto he just fights because he enjoys it, so your point is invalid, next time you try and criticize a series do it with valid points and not with playground insults.
_"Oh hi mark"_
Totally Not Mark, *The Misunderstood UA-camr*
May be he is OFF THE MARK for those people.
@@shehrlock5780 no
"Being the Mascot for the 2020 olympic games"
*What!*
I'm so happy now. 😀
Yup, Goku is actually the most interesting character. He is basically the one who takes the story forward.
without goku there is no show...
I wouldnt say most interesting... hes boring, but probably the most important character.
@@josemou6172 he’s interesting as well though you probably just like edgy
@@Deathmare235 dragon ball is overrated
@@zenithlyncadet8984 then why are you watching it
Son Goku is excellent. Thanks
thank you sooooo much for this insight, Mark. This opened my eyes totally, Goku is Dragonball!!!!
OMG Mellavelli! I love your show!
😂 fool
Hoiii mellavelli hoe gaat het😁
@@fabianmz4403 Fool? say that to those losers that raised you
@@theabsolianmellavelli4186 NAsser? jij ook hier?!???
This is another thing Sonic and Goku have in common, they are upbeat,adventure-loving characters who live their lives to the fullest while inspiring change in those around them.
Remember kids
Carrots > vegetables
Well Carrots are Vegetable :)
@@swastika721 I don't know if this is a wooosh or not
OOf..lol
I hate the Goku Slander that's been happening in Twitter recently!
Dragon Scale I guarantee you these edge lord waifu lovers only make up at most 5% of the DB community. DB4 life!
@@EssentialTurnip I'm not sure where ur going with this and what you mean but good on ya!
Exactly...because apparantly Kaulifa slander is like "sooo....last Tuesday" and "no longer cool". (although kinda justified in my opinion) and obviously because DB especially Z was NOT about badass martial arts and beams shooting and action.
It’s making me mad too lol. Goku isn’t a good character, but he is not a bad one either!
ITS NOT SLANDER, I RESNT THAT
Slander is spoken, in print it’s libel...
So to sum it all up:
Piccolo and Vegeta's character arcs only exist because of (someone like) Goku.
Yep, it was thanks to him the became good guys in the first place
@@titang6173 surprisingly Piccolo fans and Vegeta fans alike fail to see that...
Basically all of Dragonball is thanks to Goku.
Without him we wouldn't have a story, obviously.
But without Goku Japanese Manga and Anime AS A WHOLE would be COMPLETELY different than what it is today.
TheFinalChapters I mean duh
@@demonking86420 I mean Goku is still boring as his own character. I guess a boring stagnant character is what you could base a long running manga series on .
So glad this video is back. It was the one that got me in to your channel.
Goku's arc is something that some people can relate to. A young boy who grows up, makes friends and gets better at what he does.
goku: born to destroy given instructions in his brain as a baby to kill and fight in his genes and yet chooses to be nice and help....that's a cool story..a boy with no immediate family mind you...he didn't sulk about having no parents or his evil broher...he did something..he got stronger...he pushed hi limits..hes no sasuke basically...
Goku was just a better character before the Namek Saga imo
@@razkableYou're completely wrong. Goku never "chose" to be good, he hit his head as a young child. He still fights and values fighting over anything else, it's stated in super in fact. Goku had no reason to care about his parents since Gohan raised him and when he died he did in fact mourn his death (the 4 star ball). I also don't see why Goku would "sulk" about a brother he never met and kidnapped his son. Getting stronger from doing something is literally what every human does almost every day. If you repeatedly do something, you get better at it and pushing ones limits is something we should all strive to do.
Oggy 5000 - yeah, I see.
I feel like these types of criticisms mostly happen in the west. Eastern audiences have different expectations of storytelling.
true that
It's not really an Eastern or Western thing, though, I think. In the 80s, these types of flat character arcs were everywhere, Johnathan Jostar, Kenshiro, etc. But as time went on, people grew to want more humanity and nuance out of their heroes than a Flat Character Arc could deliver. People wanted to see characters grow and deal with more complex and intriguing stories that weren't afraid to give us a bit more than just a strong, resolute, good guy beating up someone who existed to be pure, unwavering, evil. And writers adapted to this new trend of audiences wanting to feel more out of their stories.
That's why positive arcs are so much more common now overall. It's not like suddenly flat arcs are always bad, but people just want to see more complex and engaging stories and, because people respond to positive arcs more, it's more common for writers to write those types of arcs in fiction... and that's just sort-of how it is. It's easy to see all three types of arcs and to think they're all just as good, but, realistically, some types of arcs are just better at captivating an audience, even though any type of arc can succeed or fail given the right circumstances.
@@dracocrusher The problem is we're starting to get to a point in time where positive arcs are now over-saturated. Maybe I'm wrong since I don't have a strong argument except my personal experience. I'm starting to get really tired of positive arcs even if they are well written because I find myself starting to get more invested in how important a character is to the world and how they impact it rather than the world impacting the character. Maybe I'm watching the wrong shows but I'm just tired of watching characters grow and develop in ways that I've already seen before since now there's so many shows that do positive arcs; while for flat characters I get more invested on how they change the world around them and seeing the effects one person can cause.
Maybe it's time for the era of negative arc shows.
@@iamteadle714
I don't think negative arcs will ever really take off because, writing quality aside, people are turned off by darker subject matter. Sure, it can gain popularity and acclaim, but it's much harder to make something like that mainstream because people will generally enjoy seeing characters become better and the knowledge that they, themselves, can become better, than they like the idea that them and the characters they follow are actively becoming worse.
I mean, as I said, it's not impossible for something like that to become popular, but I can't see it having as wide of an appeal as someone like Deku or Goku that actively stands for how you, too, right now, as a person, can improve yourself and achieve your goals... which is to say nothing about the reliability that comes with a character who works with or stands for an idea like that.
@@dracocrusher So do you consider the story of Forrest Gump to be less complex than the two other types of arcs? You can pretty much expand his entire life into a TV series and there would be no shortage of compelling characters and events that he can influence.
i dont know why people like to hate on 'good guy' characters like classic superman and manga goku. it's like they want the hero to be as malicious and ego centric as they do. I on the other hand prefer my heroes to be a morally upright person, gives me something to aspire towards.
Exactly and I'd say it is because in modern world people just don't believe an all good person can exist.
I do come into the other hand , i'd like a character whom i can relate to , someone who isn't perfect on morals , someone who makes mistakes. Yet , he realizes the mistake and goes forward into fixing it and improving himself.
That's inspiration for me
@@connorscosette5440 I agree
It's not so much as that people "hate" those types of character but they never truly change or were never relatable in the first place. I'd rather have a character start off as relatable and then become an inspiration rather than a character just being born an inspiration.
I don't usually don't root for the good characters but I actually like Goku's character because he has a lot influence on characters changing like Piccolo, Vegeta and Tien
When goku comes back from the dead in the buu saga and is with the z family again. I was like the z family crying and happy to see him. He just has this warm feeling like everything is gonna be okay now and like gohan told goten hes like an angel. You're right man goku is Dragon Ball and without him people wouldn't like vegeta as much if it wasnt for goku. Vegeta would have never changed and became interesting as he is. Goku is the best!!!
Didn't he dip in his family to train some reincarnation of evil because he had no confidence in gohan or goten?
@@whirlysquirrely3368Yeah 10 years later
People praise Vegeta for loving his family and spending time with them, they praise piccolo for having a bond with Gohan and his family, while shitting on Goku for not doing the same. What they don't realize is that without Goku, we would never get that. If Goku had spent most of his time with his family, the piccolo and Vegeta arc won't exist. The reason why Goku is the strongest and always ahead of Vegeta is because he neglects his family. DB is a good example of why you can't have both things, you either become the strongest in the universe and prevent its destruction, or you settle for your family and eventually lead to their deaths. Goku can't be with his family because doing so would lead to their demise.
Now the same fans shit on Gohan for spending too much time with his family. He settled for his family and lost the title of strongest in the universe. That's the biggest problem with DB fans is that they want ALL the characters to be IDEAL. They complain about Krillin and Gohan for not training, while at the same time complaining about Goku for not being with his family.
I completely disagree.
Especially after rewatching almost every movie at the beginning of January I noticed again why I love the original Dragon Ball and early DBZ so much because Goku kinda gets to be both.
I wouldn't say he is the best father I've ever seen but he has cool interactions with his friends and family. Later in DBZ and Super we don't really get anything like that except maybe with Gohan in the hyperbolic time chamber and after it before the Cell games start. I can't really think of one time after they first met that Goku and Goten had a nice interaction with each other. If both are in one scene they are just there and maybe Goten gets to act really childish again but nothing more.
I agree and tbh people get on Goku for being a bad dad and dont get me wrong hes not father of the year but if u look at it he was a father to Gohan until Raditz showed up and he sacraficed himself. Then after that he had to train to protect everyone for a year then got beat to a pulp by Vegeta and had to recover while Gohan and Krillin left to Namek. Then after the fight with Friez he was recovering with the Yardrats then came back. In trunks timeline he spent time with his family till he died like a year after returning. Main timeline he was notified bout the android trained with Gohan and Piccolo until it came up. Fast forward to the Cell games Goku giving Cell a senzu bean was bad but it was because he believe in his son's power. Next he sacraficed himself and didnt come back for the sake of the earth so he didnt get to be around when Goten was born. I'll admit his actions in Super may not be the best since he does love to train all the time but then again I never said he was a perfect father. My point is that hes nowhere near as bad as people peg him to be. If Goku was my father I would be content with his behaviour tbh.
how many times are you fucking fanboys gonna keep bringing back goku ¨sacrifices¨ They werent Sacrifices at all. The 1st time agains raditz GOHAN WAS THE ONE who injury raditz and then goku had the chance to grab his tail all he needed to do is to NOT LET IT GO but he fucked up so in the end he has TO SACRIFICE because if HE DIDNT raditz would have kill them all, IT WAS HIS FUCKING FAULT IN THE 1st PLACE!!. Cell....oh boy......goku can instan transmit or teleport in less than a second, but nope he choose to kill king kai an INNOCENT GOD and he stayed there waiting while cell explode......are those suppose to be sacrifices???!!! A sacrifices will be Ace Death...yeah it was dumb and all but it made more sense since luffy reached his LIMIT (finally...or rather for the 3rd time in the arc and after this luffy is out of the rest of the arc) Ace takes the attack that was meant for luffy but he actually understimated the enemy and got burn from the inside and die that was a sacrifice and one that made sense...after all those fight, after crossing the Impel down jail, the ocean and reaching the marine ford and fighting more powerfull enemies and DODGING some of them (Because luffy was outclass in that fight) And finally free his brother the arc ends with him FAILING because he give it all he got and colapse in the middle of the fight in the end he is responsible for Ace's Death but ace made the choice to sacrifice himself to save his little brother.....thats a sacrifice or when piccolo cover gohan, there was no way around it.....but gokus? no.
They could all have a happy medium 😂
Raul Rojas you might be a little slow and that's the problem. The fan base is full semi conscious spergs.
"Goku didn't sacrifice anything with Raditz he fucked up" yeah so did vegeta he literally revived Buu but vegeta's useless explosion is still called a sacrifice.
I can tell you didn't put much thought into your rant he can't teleport anywhere in the universe just to energy signatures he can recognize. King Kai was literally the most effective place to take cell.
I always liked Goku's character, the fact that his convictions and beliefs never waver is something I admire. Even though Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and other characters undergo developments, that doesn't mean Goku's character is boring and plain. He really helped me know when to not care about what other people say to me, that's why Goku is my favourite character of the show.
@@negentropyagent7337
Damn. . .
U right
Son Goku is the GOAT of anime and this very video greatly explains why. Great job man !!
I only see the original Dragonball Goku as my fav. Most westerners only know DBZ Goku
AAkiraa Well said. I totally agree. I only had the manga of DB before I got cable and cable only had DBZ around that time. The original manga was what made me love it. It was goofy and inappropriate at times, but still funny in a very Japanese way and most importantly was very strict about power scaling. You could easily tell the limits of Goku’s ability at each loss. While as in Z and Super, especially in Super, the line blurs or is nonexistent. In Super he is affected by abilities he would easily counter in Z, which makes no sense.
No wonder I love the Dragon Ball Series so much. I always want to see how the world or certain characters react with Goku
Me, too. I just realized that's the reason I love Goku and Dragon Ball. I love that Goku is this innocent pure-hearted goofy and yet strong character that I look forward on how the other characters (especially villains) will react to him.😆
@@crimsonxxvip goku is also a hard worker..hes not given power like luffy is magically given conqueror's haki when he needs it cause plot or given powers like say ichigo or deku or naruto...he works for it..all the time...man did not even know how to shoot a ki beam at the start...he turned ssj by accident out of anger for losing his bff in front of him and not stopping it due to being tired from the spirit bomb...goku learns things...he trains...even if its off screen or barley shown...we get the point..timeskips occur to make us understand he works hard af...
I've always liked Goku. However, Vegeta was always my favorite. In recent years I've really grown to love Goku a lot more.
Goku is my favorite character ever, flat and everything! It's the strongest and the sweetest, he allways prevails 💜
"Goku is a horrible father. Piccolo is way better"
It's almost like he killed Goku and kidnapped his son at a young age, thereby stealing most of the parental training time Goku could of had before all the other craziness went down.
I mean, even though he wanted Goku dead, there really wasn't another way to win after Goku messed up on letting Raditz go. Piccolo wasn't planning on killing Goku when they got there.
Dendo
Yeah, it wasn't intentional and was the only way to win the way they did.
Still doesn't change the fact that it put Piccolo in a position to gain a parental like bond with Gohan and taking Goku out of said position for a good while.
@Unstoppable Plays! I'd still argue that a good part of making vegeta the better man that he is, is in part of being humbled by the Z fighters. That and with no space boss and no home to go to, where else but the place where you got your ass kicked. If I remember correctly, vegeta completely turned down the idea of mating with earth women in the very beginning when nappa brought up trying to revive the race. He wanted no future competition with knowing how strong a half blooded bastard could be.
Unstoppable Plays! He might be a little bit better but the only way trunks can ever spend time with him is when he’s training. And vegeta is always training.
Shorty The feeling is so mutual
Is it just me or the reason more people hate Goku nowadays is partially because many people in recent years got into Dragon Ball through watching DBZ Abridged first and took the jokes TFS made about Goku being a bad husband/father too seriously?
The bad father joke was made before TFS, but they definitely did make it even more known
I like this. Really didn't know about the flat character arc, but it makes a lot of sense as to why Goku's character seems to be misunderstood. I do feel like Goku has been getting an absurd amount of hate recently, so it's cool to see someone genuinely explain how he is written, and why he's seen as "boring" for many people. Great Video man 😁
I think the reason he's remained so chirpy is that blow to the head when he was a kid was harder than we thought
He did fall off of a cliff.
Those bones as strong as steel helped a lot though.
Edited? And 40 some odd ball shiners liked this? Ew. P.S. get mad
Well it did nearly kill him. He was in a coma for like weeks
I laughed so much
I mean he almost died from it, so it must have been pretty hard
"Goku is Dragon Ball"
never thought i would listen this
Basically FighterZ
well... if you poo poo when you pee pee. but you better doo doo when you wheee wheee
@@joeshmoe6798 holy crabs, ur right
So when I was 11 we drew designs for the olimpics and I drew a general olimpic style character but the hair was Goku's, each character had one of his form's hair. Did I predict the future?
Thank you, finally, for being someone who understands goku's part in dragon ball
but doesnt work in long runners. So look how horrible is db after cell or friezza even.
and how boring is in the actual manga. kjjj toyotaro is so bad.
gladly we have world trigger in emision
Yeah damn kinda sucks that everyone around goku repeats shit. At least gohan excepts the fact his story is over. But vegeta kinda stays consistent, but absolutely not piccolo
Kinsomniac P You could continue Gohans story and make him a interesting character.
@@Shazasterforever1 man i hope so since currently he's so irrelevant and painful to watch.
Kinsomniac P Man I feel you. You know what they could have done? They could have made Gohan that smart fighter who does not rely on raw power to win battles. A Gohan who has control over his hidden potiential to the point where he can manipulate Ki in different ways. This would be a great character development for him since he is becoming a scholar. So mix his brains with his brawns to make a fighter he is ment to be.
But gohan fir for it, he hated fighting and only want to start a familiy and bond with them. I mean look at goku his relationship with gohan and goten is good but goku rarely there went goten is born and gohan dont want that happend to his familly
Agree'd I was disappointed that Piccolo's excuse for becoming stronger was basically "I've been training while you weren't watching", it's a damn shame because Piccolo is my second favourite character after Vegeta
I've spent a lot of time on youtube watching reviews and everything has led me to the conclusion that "In order for a character's story to have worth, they must undergo a change."
Every fiber of my body rejected this assessment because a vast majority of my favourite stories feature a main character that doesn't drastically change. Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha especially featured a main character whose driving goal has just been "to help this ferret" or "to understand and befriend this sad girl that just beat me up." I've seen reviews critcise this show for having an unchanging protagonist while praising the character arc of the rival character.
Until I encountered this video I had no idea how to process the idea that "the main character must change" and now it all makes sense: They don't have to change, they have to be a part of change.
This video really cleared up my mind Thanks a lot, Mark.
Goku Was Retconned, He Is Not A Flat Arc Character He Is A Character That Grew From An Idealist Naive Child, The Namik Saga Made Him A Mature Martial Master That Threw Away His Naivety And Idealism When Realizing That He Has To Kill Frieza And The Cell Saga Reinforced That Even Further Which Completes His Character Arc (This Is Why Gohan Was Being Set Up To Become The Next Main Character Since Goku Was Already Complete), Which Is Why His Character Had To Be Sacrificed For Super To Succeed.
Honestly I blamed how now a days everyone is literally trying to be a 'high class critic' to show off to random people that they have 'good taste' in anime. So instead of actually learning the art they just used vague & easy spammable word & phrases so they can be passed off as smart when they critique something. Examples being.
'Cliches, generic, token-character, character arc, no personality, overhyped, plot hole, plot armor, plot convience, bullshit main character.'
you get the point, words that just by saying is a cheap way of saying 'it's bad' without actually knowing fully what they're talking about.
Where we got to the stigma where the terms of a 'good hearted MC who don't truly need to change' are seen as boring and generic instantly while the 'Oh I'm so morally grey character, whose secretly depressed, ahhhhh all my actions are so thought provoking' that we see as the same thing over & over again where it's basically just a edgy person doing whatever he felt like at the moment but then afterwards justify it with 'oh but I have to because this is my ideals' crap we see. People eat that shit up like it's the most daring thing ever.
Like personal opinion but I much rather see someone who strades way too close to being good go through struggles to keep his ideals as the world challenges him. Then seeing some edge guy getting a free pass to do whatever he wants then after justify it saying he needed too cause his ideals.
Like it's reasons like this some anime that were good get overlooked for being 'too cliche' & ones that are a bore to watch at times & at times pisses me off get praised because 'oh it have so many thoughts put into each action' like no it don't! The character are literally just doing whatever the author wants for shock value and later use 'oh morale grey ideals' thing to justify it.
Wow... this is sadly accurate
So basically the main characters are suppose to be like 5-7 years old children that did something bad, but bombard their parents with advanced words they (the children) do not fully understand in hopes they will get a pass. Because apparently EVERYTHING is relative. Yup....sounds about right concerning the generation
@@Grybster not even close to the point but ok.
Pretty much this. This odd tendency to be a critic also causes people to put more emphasis on certain tropes as 'good' or 'bad' without really realizing these tropes aren't inherently so. See character development. It's always seen as good and every character needs it to be a "good" character. But, they don't see how a development really affects she character, just that it happened, and how sometimes "developing" a character could make a character less entertaining/interesting/important afterwards to little benefit. Some characters benefit from a flat arc while some need development to (remain) shining.
This is a great post Spot on
Goku changes or tries to change everyone around him in some way, and that's what makes him a great character. We've now even sene it SLIGHTLY getting through to Frieza when he says things like he wants to use a magical wish granting dragon just to get taller.
Thank you so much for this! I've seen so much negativity surrounding Goku's character lately so it was really refreshing to hear your thoughtful take on the character! The main character is rarely my favorite one in stories but I've always loved Goku and found him inspirational in a way. ... Then again, my favorite character in Dragon Ball series is Freeza, so maybe I have a thing for the flat character arc. I think it works in a series like this precisely for the reasons you described.
Freeza wasn't my favourite but I always find it interesting, seeing what he'll do next. I'm probably one of the few people who hopes he stays the way he is.
@@Oggy5000-u8b I get you. I don't really want to see him be different either. He's fine as he is now, and if they keep his changes subtle as they have for now, I'd be more than happy with that.
The one thing I hate about people who bash on Goku is that they try to blame the ToP on him when before Goku said anything about it Zeno himself originally had the idea. How is it his fault for agreeing with the will of basically God. Another key reason as to why it wasn't his fault is that the Grand Priest said they were gonna wipe out all eight anyway, but the ToP was so at least one Universe could have a fighting chance, but yeah. Goku is evil and he forfeit countless lives for his entertainment. 😒
@@luislatinoman7055 You could say it's his fault because he reminded Zeno of the concept and Beerus did warn so I still think he was being selfish but that doesn't make him a bad character. In fact it makes him more human imo.
@@Oggy5000-u8b If Zeno forgot about the Tournament then either the Grand Priest would have reminded him or they would have just gone with their first option of destroying all eight.
For those who think goku never had a character development, you are wrong.
He had, he had one. One that change his whole personality, ideology, and identity. One happen in a single day, the day when he hit his head on a rock....
people focus too much on that word development..goku has great characterization and progression and some development..he has a backstory and he changes some views..he does not have character full arc change but hes not meant to as a static flat character who changes others...to me characterization is more important then character change..does a character stay true to who they are and act that way or not...sometimes its nice to just know what to expect from a character in how they are written cough like say zoro in one piece where you know hes loyal and has a bushido code and way to present himself and hes depressed inside cause he lost kuina before surpassing her thus will never be able to prove he could surpass her and he shows it on his face....thats not changing.....so i prefer that to true full character change like say vegeta or a pure evil dark villain into a hero nice person which is rare and usually half assed and only semi or not long lasting or unrealistic...
Hes only Carter arc is he has wqs ot fokus on new generation
Gohan's character arc didn't end at Cell, in the Buu saga he grew up. He wasn't the impish kid who had outbursts of anger, he turned into a strong, confident, man who didn't reply on his anger to fight anymore.
sadly in dbs his entire character development was thrown in a garbage can.
Lmao "Strong" he got weaker then he was against Cell💀
@@DaJuiceisLoose11 and then with a magical boost became the strongest non-fused character
@@DaJuiceisLoose11 Dude, did you even watch the Buu saga?
@@robert.mcdonald yea with some magical boost he became stronger ooooohhh. Gohan got trash.
I'm not so sure even characters with positive change arcs *need* to have an expiration date. True, once an arc is completed it's very common to simply reset the character because it's easier, but I don't see why it *has* to be that way.
Case in point: in the newest chapter of the Super manga we discover that Vegeta actually regrets his actions in killing the Namekian village way back in the Frieza arc. He saves a Namekian child from Moro and says that because he owes the Namekians a debt he can't allow any more of them to die. Think how cool it would be for Vegeta to go from overcoming his pride to making up for the mistakes he's made. One of the things that's always bothered me about Vegeta's redemption is that he's never actually seems sorry for any of the bad things he did. His only regret seems to be that he didn't hug his son enough. That stadium of people he slaughtered? Meh.
Or take Naruto. His arc used to be gaining people's respect and finding his place in the world. But he achieved that. His new arc is learning how not to be a crappy father, which, aside from being something new and different, also flows naturally from his character since he never had a father himself.
Giving a character a brand new arc requires creativity and risk-taking, things a long-running show sometimes has in short supply, but in real life people don't have one arc. They have many. I don't see why characters can't be the same way.
To be fair Vegeta took special care in wording the wish to make sure the people at the tournament got revived. ( As well as making sure the bad guys didn't get revived)
Perfectly said.
I agree with the Naruto example, and personally, Toei should take notes from Naruto's character writing if they want to improve the quality and longevity of their future positive and negative arcs.
@@four-en-tee Blame Toriyama for not having the series after 10 year timeskip....So they forgot what to do with Goku Character which was becoming a sensei to let Uub become his successor,And while working that that character Arc Goku can work on being a better husband.They had a opportunity in the T.O.P Arc where Goku could had a Gohan Moment what he had with Cell,Which is him being bloodlust in his Ultra instinct form where he loses himself against somebody but once he become himself again he probably realize he's part of the problem when comes putting his universe at risk and that make him depressed and him contemplate retirement from fighting which sounds weird.
@@four-en-tee eh given the hate Boruto gets I can't find anyone who actually likes it , so I wouldn't take any notes from naruto given I can't seem to find any naturo fans that actually like Boruto and most depise his sons . >_> /
This is very much the same case for Superman.
While Superman does have a few stories where he develops, most often he remains a static character, inspiring the people around him to change for the better and to always give their all.
Best story to embody this idea? *_All Star Superman_*
Comic book characters in general are like that.
@@saisameer8771 not all
Captain America and deadpool and blade and wonder woman and magneto and joker and lex luthor and thanos and carnage and darkseid are flat arc characters because their cores and personalities are pretty much the same and remain consistent.
Daredevil and spider man and batman and the flash and deathstroke are dynamic and round characters because they change and grow and evolve
I love me superman but most he inspires is for others to sleep while he wins battles
Superman is for me not inspiring or a good character at all.
I guess this is how I understand it.
Vegeta’s character arc went from someone vile to someone kind. And then, since the series is ongoing or needs to continue, he at certain points return to that person who wants to be the most powerful of all, even if he already recognized Kakarot’s supremacy over him (that scene in Buu saga, and I think in Cell saga when Goku died and Vegeta kind of got mad because Goku has the guts to sacrifice himself like that.)
On the other hand, Goku is just this forever kind and caring type of person all throughout beginning when he still doesn’t know what’s the difference between a boy and a girl, up to that moment when he tried to save the entire multiverse from extinction.
Still, I hate some parts of Super because it kind of messes his character up (particularly that senzu bean scene in Trunks saga.)
ria fojas yeah but to be fair the real question was did goku really kiss chichi some say not shown in the manga so anime only some also say it’s a dub exclusive
jjfeed back I saw in the manga that he really said those things, so yeah. He didn’t kiss her based on canon story. I actually don’t like that idea because it made Goku a very weird type of a person.
Johan liebert is a flat character right
I hate the people who try to change the dynamic. You have a guy who literally followed from childhood to adulthood and a new guy comes and all of a sudden he gets everything
Lets put it that way, for a never ending anime like dragon ball or pokemon the protagonist needs to be someone like goku or ash, someone Who never Changes, but thats not human at all, People change thats why nowadays vegeta is more popular than goku, because People can relate to vegeta, he makes mistakes, he learns from then he is human, goku Just does the same mistakes over and over again especially on super where he is a man Child, they Gt him. Without turning him. Into a Child, its ridículos. Im. Fine with z goku, not with the kid super versiom.
Yeah, Goku is very misunderstood, He's not a perfect character, but that does not in anyway make him a bad character, it makes him (Ironically for a Saiyan) Human. It's okay to be a _Flat Character_
I completely agree with you I think the reason I'm not to interested in goku anymore because I feel like his story really ended in z and I feel like super is more of a push to keep his story going more when it shouldn't that's how I feel at least
Made Pandora
If you watch anime because of logic most of the time then you will not enjoy it.
@@christophercolumns7243 no its not logic it's narrative focus story really ended in z and I feel that keeping the story going like this is just unnecessary narrative wise not saying I don't like super I just find goku the least interesting now
Made Pandora
Eh,
I think his character is not getting old. I see the light he emits.
no, its not okay to be a flat character lol.
Learning about the existence of flat character arcs has really allowed me to stop thinking that my style of writing, that the characters I create, are somehow inferior just because they don't conform to the ever-present positive arc. This video really helped me, and I genuinely can't thank you enough for that.
I have been criticized for writing a flat arc villain once,and I didn't knew what flat arcs were befpre this video.
The common criticism was : "Villains must hace a reawon to be evil or must have at least a bitno sympathetic backatory to makenthenaudoence resonate with him/her motives as well."
I disagreed because some people just enjoy money and power.
My characters simply suck ass cause they are shit in general.
Flat or "positive"
So happy this is back up! Perfect analysis. Keep making stellar videos bro.
But OG dragonball disproves this, that story was literally about goku learning and changing. Even post OGDB what about the part where goku struggles coming to terms with his saiyan heritage? Or Frieza forcing Goku to realize not everyone is worth sparing? Pretty big stuff that you strangely glossed over.
The thing many people who don't like Goku don't understand is, Goku is not a hero, he is a warrior and it runs in his blood, he is a warrior who has trained ever since he was a kid to become stronger, and what better way to become stronger than to fight. Now Goku is neither a hero nor a bad guy, he will do many heroic things using his power such as saving Earth on multiple occasions but his first and most important objective is to become the strongest. Therefore anyone saying Goku is selfish and irresponsible for always wanting to fight and not caring about others, it is not his job to be a hero but to be the strongest, however, he also manages to do many great things following the objective of becoming the strongest. And this is why Goku is my favorite character, he has one objective and he won't stop at anything to achieve it.
Hahaha so true. I love how much the show acknowledges this too. Almost to the point of an inside joke entertaining those who understand it. He will first fight for the sake of fighting always, THEN if everything goes wrong cry about this person being dead, whatever whatever. Lol always secondary, which really speaks to his characters single mindedness in his experiencing of strength. Exactly why Vegeta hates him. He actually IS naturally better.
@@Terranjourneys Not true Goku Is A True Hero
aka goku is a sociopath
@@jashuapizarro4729 No he is not Goku is A True Hero Deal Wit It! Lol
@@Terranjourneys Didn't he have a whole speech to Freiza about being the light of good?
TLDR
Goku's heart and disposition was in the right place from the start.
Vegeta is my favourite character but I always felt that Goku had a lot of character development (he's my 3rd) because when you think about it, Goku's principles of what it means to get stronger evolve with each antagonists. Despite being a linear and simple evolution it is still one that fits the universe because it is the very fact that Goku's a simple guy that makes the show so good in a series where everyone overthinks everything imo.
I bet piccolo is your 2nd. That's my guess, I can't imagine anyone else being in that slot
@@harrylane4 my second is actually Super Broly haha. I relate a lot to him and I hope we get to see him again in the future
@@garnetblaze1393 I really liked broly, but I need to see more of him to put him on my list.
PS cheelai 5ever
@@harrylane4 i totally understand dude. His character just hits too close to home for me hence why my afinity towards him.
Ps: damn straight
@@garnetblaze1393 New Broly is pretty much kid Goku if he was raised as a saiyan
Goku has always been my Favorite Dragon Ball Character. He is such a fun character to be around with his positive attitude.
Goku has always been my favorite character. How people can watch the show when they claim to hate him makes my head hurt. Great video man!
vegeta and gohan fans who grew up only seeing z being jealous that their faves get shafted...that's why..they don't get this story began before either were invented with kid goku so we all love him..its like if luffy ichigo naruto or yusuke got replaced by their side characters later on..no..we started with this hero..hes the best...fuck replacing them...I didn't sign up to see gokus son and rival take his spot...gohan was never in my thoughts watching of dragonball first..i never thought oh his son should one day take over....I went on this journey with goku ..the gohan ssj 2 moment was a moment..it wasn't the story arc we followed..it was still gokus
@@razkable For sure! I love Gohan and I think the way Vegeta has developed is something only the insane life span on dragon ball can provide. But at the end of the day I love the show most for Goku.
Damn yah niggas are FLAT
@@Laidback718 I see what you did there.
@@standlink3418 sUpeR rUinEd gOKu
Shut up that's overused already super didn't ruin shit