When I get around to building the engine for my 1969 Mustang 428 SCJ I will be sending everything to you so you guys can put it together the right way the first time. Your guys are the best.
Is there anywhere that I can follow your build. I recently took on the design and construction of a 482ci CS engine build. It's replacing a 12k mile grenaded "428" FE in a Shelby America Eleanor. I've encountered some questionable areas here and there and I merely would like to gather as much information of engine builds out there. After building SBFs and LS engines for 20 years I'm very intrigued by the FE and 385's Good luck with your build.
I used to eat breathing sleep FE's, I don't Currently have one, but just seeing someone Mention one I had to read your comments. I just wanted to say, have you guys hurd of the 445 Stroker kits for for FE'S ? I think it's called jailbreak 445? Or brakeout? You can turn even a old truck 360 into a fire breathing beast. 🤤 check it out.✌️
Been watching your videos during my build after you appearing in my feed and wasn’t aware you had your own trunions. Been waffling updating mine with my build and you had me sold pretty quick over Che as far as price and value. Also knowing that if anything ever goes wrong, you’re a solid guy and will take care of any issues without question and that’s something hard to find these days.
I updated my 2002 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 front differential from inner needle bearings to bushings not because there was a problem but because the bushings actually have a higher load carrying capability and i did not want to take that clamshell back apart ever because those little tiny needle bearings got loose into the ring and pinion. I now know i made a wise choice because of your expertise. Thanks once again!
@@Record3677 yes I did. I also bought a small ball hone as the bushings were too tight once pressed in. You may not have this issue. Just be aware. Then i just ran my differential overfull so the bushings were always being lubed. Remember i did both ends of the clamshell and has worked flawlessly.
I had an engine failure in in 2022, when i pulled the drain plug - i initially thought a rocker had come apart. It ended up being the lifter. However, the aftermarket trunions did have a lot of slop. I did not bother reusing them. I am committed to going with bushings in the engine I am currently building.
I’m glad you checked those on my motor before it went out the door. I was shown the wear on the trunions that came out of the ls9 and it was surprising.
The lesson is that a "bushing" is actually a "plain bearing" and if provided with sufficient lubrication and proper design is often superior to needle, roller, or ball bearings :-). In a given application often far superior as far as load bearing ability.
The trunnion featured wore like that because is not hard enough and likely is not a proper steel for a bearing race application. Last upgrade I did was a BTR V2 which employs hardened inner races from the bearing manufacturer (proper grade of steel hardened and tempered properly) on heat treated trunnions. Being as the OEM rocker trunnion bearings are rolling element (needle bearings) and most LS, LT, and Vortec engines do not have trunnion bearing failures, it IS possible for a needle bearing in that application to last 100 or 200 thoussand miles of engine operation PROVIDED the components are up to snuff.
You can't make carbon steel much harder than this sample, harness isn't always the issue, tuffness is more important in many applications and we get that by tempering, our trunion isn't as "hard" but it has more toughness.
@@powellmachineinc Bearing steel has a specific chromium content. It's not some random high carbon tool steel. I'm assuming you tested the hardness, how hard is it? Bearing races are at least 60 Rockwell C scale, and that's at the low end. Engineer/machinist/fabricator/moldmaker/tool & die maker here. I know a little about metallurgy and bearing application. Again, being as OEM needle bearing trunnions can last hundreds of thousands of miles, it's not an inherent shortcoming of rolling element bearings here.
@@scudzukiThe little rollers are harder to make roll, especially under higher loads. And, once there’s a slight surface imperfection it really makes them not want to roll and they’ll just chew away at one spot. With factory stuff there’s less loading than with aftermarket cams and springs. That little bit of extra load, and often rpm, can be enough to cause failures.
I used the CHE precision LS bushing trunnion kit on my LS1 Rocker arms. Unlike some other brands, the CHE bushings rotate in the rocker and are not press fit in so any wear is not going to be in the same one spot.
@@powellmachineinc Not loose. Precision fit. Look into them and maybe test a set. Lot's of people using them with success. The press fit bushings all show wear in the same spot after use. Not the CHE bushings.
Needle bearings in an engine usually dont end well. Not a huge fan of bushings, but far superior to needles. Needles are not great due to the concentrated load peaks. You can see the needle patterns in the one you showed. Start with the correct material, centerless ground, and dlc type coated steel on steel. I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night 😅
I worked at a Yamaha dealer and the racers “YZ” engine and….well all had needle bearings on the connecting rod. They had adjustable valves lash so I was always in there. These guys ran hard and always in for something they broke. Never saw any visible failure and these had 8k red line tachometers. Personally I’ve owned 17. I am sure there is a lot of “Chinisium” out there as well as US companies selling roller trunnions. But who knows if they buy overseas bearings, finished trunnions or both. GM opened a plant in China decades ago as a Buick and certain Chevys sold as if the where Cadillacs! But, 51% of every company doing business in China belongs to the government there. They reverse engineered the TECH2 scan tool, sold them for $200, and they spilled magic smoke all over the bench. GM went totally internet based in 2013. That was the last year of software updates. Everything is messed up now!
I used Crower steel roller rockers rather than the aluminum rockers everyone else was using (Crane) at the time. The cam was by Reed cams, solid roller lifter for circle track performance. .600 intake, .618 exhaust on a 305 ci v8. It ran for 4 seasons.
I bought a Brian Tooley Racing trunnion kit for my LS rebuild due to Comp Cams brand being on back order. Of the 32 bearings in the kit, i had to toss nearly half because they would seize on the shaft when installed. Summit Racing send me a second kit for free to try and build a complete set of rocker arms from both. Of the 64 total bearings, I was able to find 40 that installed properly and did not seize up.
@@00dustincolvin I did. Not impressed by their customer service one bit. I was told to contact the company I bought them from. Summit didn't question me at all. They just sent the second kit.
Great information. One would think the companies who are having these made would have figured out the problem and addressed it by now. Maybe profits are in the way.
I am an old novice asking novice questions. How do roller bearings last so long with the bearing and race both being rock hard and running in grease? I am talking wheel/axle bearings in old rear wheel drive cars. They last 100k routinely and seem to be the same hardness? Thanks for entertaining an old guy's questions?
Ball bearing, roller bearings, needle bearings are meant to be used where constant full rotation is used and repeated shock loading is low. Whenever you go from a plain bearing to a roller bearing you reduce the surface area that carries the load. That helps with reducing friction but it des not mean it is a better fit for the job. I suppose it could be asked then why do we use needle bearings in Universal joints and that's a good question and I wish I had the answer. Maybe the shock loading is not as bad as you would think?
The main problem causing most every part of aftermarket ls valvetrain failure is greedy cam lobe designs. They push lobe design to the limits to advertise hp gains while ignoring reliability. For example, we had one ls3 camaro, gm asa cam 226/236 525 lift 110 lsa with gm blue springs make 469whp dynojet and drove 30k miles before he traded it. Another ls3 camaro made 485whp dynojet with a btr stage 4 233/250 600+ lift dual valve spring deal, they suggested replacing springs every 15k miles. Lol, the gm asa cam is in the 525hp dirt track 6.2 with blue springs, and turns 7300 for 20+ minutes in a race
There are Definitely some bad profiles out there.... but, it's rare to see one that killing parts in a hyd roller street application, if you have some I'd be eager to see them
i just watched a video whear the guy was saying , watch out for the wear in trunions , he was stirring his drained oil under led light and you could see clouds of silver flowing in the oil
I've worked on custom needle roller bearing assembly machines where individual rollers and races were measured and sorted to give uniform clearances for a bearing package. The target clearance was in low microns and was crucial for longevity. Seeing the finish on that trunion I would venture a guess that clearances were probably orders of magnitude too big. Even if they weren't that finish (and the design with the groove and shoulders) would lead to contamination locally. Whatever the cause (design, material, hardness, clearances) brinelling is what I see. Once you lose your finish you're going bad fast.
My personal experience is , that if bearings are not allowed to spin 360 degrees , with good lubrication , they fail quickly . A bushing , being supported by an oil cushion all around , is much better . Bushings still wear out and eventually fail , but take a lot longer to do it .
i learned that HARDENED metal was not hardened all the way when I lathed down some pins for my backhoe and after a lot of turning and sparks it suddenly got real easy to turn and remove metal :)
No point-loading with the bushing. Needles point-load, so they need significant rotation to dispose of the load. Does this happen to camshafts with needle bearings?
LS LT and Vortec trunnions from the factory are needle bearings. Even after the lessons learned in the LS and Vortec engines, GM still does it this way.
I have a Jeep Wrangler running a 3.6L Pentastar® V6. The engine developed a ticking sound at about 50k miles. The shop replaced my rockers, cam shafts and valves on the left engine bank. They said the rocker bearing were the point of failure. Is this the same issue you’re talking about? It’s under warrant for 100k so I’m hoping the other side fails before then if it’s going to. What’s ya think?
Those bearings working back and forth in the same track saws right down into the trunion , common with the small bearing ,trunion design in any roller rocker. Bushing best way to go . Harley was right in that set up on their rockers .
Sadly, everything is made cheap as possible with no regard to quality. There was a time you could buy quality for a price. Now you just pay more for a name on the same crap. Thanks for sharing with us!
What symptoms do you have before complete failure? I'm getting a slight squeak on cold start and goes away once warmed up. It's an 02 5.3 with a trunnion upgrade.
I wonder if Harland Sharp has any problems with their needle bearings in the Ford FE shaft rocker systems? I chose to use bushed rocker arms from Precision Oil Pumps.
Not enough surface area and other problems. When you reach arm breaking springs pressures, The bronze bushing lives on. If its properly lubricated will last a long long time.
What happens if you retain the oem LS rockers/bearings, and use a cam lobe design that needs less valvespring pressure, and turns more rpm safely? You lose that last 15hp from the latest/greatest every part of the valvetrain destroyer cam, but find replacing broken valvetrain parts every 15k miles is no longer necessary
What's your experience with the roller tips on roller rockers? Are some better than others and worth putting in a high performance engine that end up with high miles?
I would have honestly assumed the needle bearings would be the superior design. Interesting. Stock stamped rockers & fulcrums don't seem so archaic after all.Do you see similar failures on camshaft needle bearings? I would think the cam bearing deal would be long lived due to the fact that they constantly rotate, as opposed to the back and forth on the rockers.
How do the factory GM roller bearings live so long when the aftermarket bearings won't stay together? Is it just the quality of the trunion material and machine finish?
Bearings in a reciprocating motion should move far enough that the needles (or balls or rollers) makes at least a full rotation. You can calculate how much angular movement the rocker needs to make using this formula: ((needle diameter) / (shaft diameter)) x 720 degrees. The larger the roller, the more angular movement is required to get a full rotation. I doubt that you are getting enough rotation to fulfil that requirement. This is also why plain bearing typically work better for reciprocation motion. Most bearings components are all 52100 bearing steel, typically HRC 60-62, so I doubt that is the issue, although a softer shaft could cause problems.
I think if the metallurgy is right, then the problem would be finish. A "rough" finish produces small contact points instead of a wide smooth area thus concentrating force and causing breakage of those points.
I don't understand why you would add point loads when you don't need to. I wonder how much of that wear is due to where they are in terms of oiling priority.
Not hard enough at the running surface..? (Before seeing anything) - needs to be .040 deep at the least, RC 58 or better, smooth, round… Both needles, shaft, etc. need to have the right finish. (From reading Torrington docs many years ago.)
I couldn’t change the shipping criteria from United States to Canada on the website. My BTR Trunnion kit roller bearings are trashed just like the ones you showed on the UA-cam video. Must switch to the bronze bushings style.
Smedding Performance full roller rockers blue wont last 2,000 miles. Ask me how I know. **** Ive seen roller lifter bearings just as bad. ** Neither case were the springs over 350 open.
Bushed trunions win here! Wheres that kid that said something like, "why spend the money here when you can go to (some other place) for $159"? Here's your explanation of the difference in and educated choice and Facebook/forum "informative" buying.
"hard as chinese arithmetic"....lmao...that was great...!...are those GM rocker trunions or after market...?..or it dont matter...u see it in "all" them...?..the bronze bushings r a great fix...!..!..like u said...something has 2 b wearable...!..another good video.!
Love the accent. But, yep, that makes sense. Poorly engineered gimmicks rarely work. All those components should be harder than hammered horseshit or it's going to blow out. There are always, or nearly always, some imperfections in the steel. So, your trunnions may have some slight imperfections. It happens.
The problem these days is you just don't know what material is being used in anything you buy. It can look perfectly good but it's made from crap. The overseas manufacturers of our goods seem to do this all the time. They have the technology and machinery to make the part and make it to precise tolerances but they make it from rubbish. It's crazy, the manufacturing of the part is generally the expensive part of the job, the material costs run second. They are ruining perfectly good parts because they cheap out on materials.
That surface finish IS garbage! If that could be compared to the surface finish a used caged tapered bearing from a Ford 8.8 pinion bearing.....shoooooooot. Wow, I'd see wheel or differential side bearings with 100k plus miles with that kind of damage. Those are good designs on paper. Poor in the field. Very little time in R&D and straight to sales.
When I get around to building the engine for my 1969 Mustang 428 SCJ I will be sending everything to you so you guys can put it together the right way the first time. Your guys are the best.
Agreed!!!
Is there anywhere that I can follow your build. I recently took on the design and construction of a 482ci CS engine build. It's replacing a 12k mile grenaded "428" FE in a Shelby America Eleanor.
I've encountered some questionable areas here and there and I merely would like to gather as much information of engine builds out there. After building SBFs and LS engines for 20 years I'm very intrigued by the FE and 385's Good luck with your build.
I used to eat breathing sleep FE's, I don't Currently have one, but just seeing someone Mention one I had to read your comments. I just wanted to say, have you guys hurd of the 445 Stroker kits for for FE'S ? I think it's called jailbreak 445? Or brakeout? You can turn even a old truck 360 into a fire breathing beast. 🤤 check it out.✌️
You'll never be able to afford it. You're a dreamer
Thanks for the info. 66 years old , many rebuilds throughout my life and still learning
Glad to help
Been watching your videos during my build after you appearing in my feed and wasn’t aware you had your own trunions. Been waffling updating mine with my build and you had me sold pretty quick over Che as far as price and value. Also knowing that if anything ever goes wrong, you’re a solid guy and will take care of any issues without question and that’s something hard to find these days.
Tyvm!, we really appreciate you
I updated my 2002 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 front differential from inner needle bearings to bushings not because there was a problem but because the bushings actually have a higher load carrying capability and i did not want to take that clamshell back apart ever because those little tiny needle bearings got loose into the ring and pinion. I now know i made a wise choice because of your expertise. Thanks once again!
Definitely, way more surface area
Did you source yours from East Coast Gear Supply? I was looking at their part for mine.
@@Record3677 yes I did. I also bought a small ball hone as the bushings were too tight once pressed in. You may not have this issue. Just be aware. Then i just ran my differential overfull so the bushings were always being lubed. Remember i did both ends of the clamshell and has worked flawlessly.
Buyer be ware. Once again you save the day with your knowledge and honesty. Much obliged.
You are welcome!
I had an engine failure in in 2022, when i pulled the drain plug - i initially thought a rocker had come apart. It ended up being the lifter. However, the aftermarket trunions did have a lot of slop. I did not bother reusing them. I am committed to going with bushings in the engine I am currently building.
Still learning here. Thank you for your time.
Absolutely
i will be buying your trunnion kit as build gets started - awesome information - well done on the video , howdy from Texas
Awesome, thank you!, we really appreciate that
I’m glad you checked those on my motor before it went out the door. I was shown the wear on the trunions that came out of the ls9 and it was surprising.
Definitely
Another good bit of info on wear and tear on parts, that certainly would cut the life of the engine with that fine metal running thru it.
Absolutely
Appreciate the good info and visual on the parts!
Glad it was helpful!
great vid. look forward to seeing rockwell test on small block roller rockers.
The lesson is that a "bushing" is actually a "plain bearing" and if provided with sufficient lubrication and proper design is often superior to needle, roller, or ball bearings :-). In a given application often far superior as far as load bearing ability.
Correct
Thank you sir. I have been wondering about them myself.
Definitely
The trunnion featured wore like that because is not hard enough and likely is not a proper steel for a bearing race application. Last upgrade I did was a BTR V2 which employs hardened inner races from the bearing manufacturer (proper grade of steel hardened and tempered properly) on heat treated trunnions. Being as the OEM rocker trunnion bearings are rolling element (needle bearings) and most LS, LT, and Vortec engines do not have trunnion bearing failures, it IS possible for a needle bearing in that application to last 100 or 200 thoussand miles of engine operation PROVIDED the components are up to snuff.
You can't make carbon steel much harder than this sample, harness isn't always the issue, tuffness is more important in many applications and we get that by tempering, our trunion isn't as "hard" but it has more toughness.
@@powellmachineinc Bearing steel has a specific chromium content. It's not some random high carbon tool steel. I'm assuming you tested the hardness, how hard is it? Bearing races are at least 60 Rockwell C scale, and that's at the low end. Engineer/machinist/fabricator/moldmaker/tool & die maker here. I know a little about metallurgy and bearing application. Again, being as OEM needle bearing trunnions can last hundreds of thousands of miles, it's not an inherent shortcoming of rolling element bearings here.
@@scudzukiThe little rollers are harder to make roll, especially under higher loads. And, once there’s a slight surface imperfection it really makes them not want to roll and they’ll just chew away at one spot.
With factory stuff there’s less loading than with aftermarket cams and springs. That little bit of extra load, and often rpm, can be enough to cause failures.
I used the CHE precision LS bushing trunnion kit on my LS1 Rocker arms. Unlike some other brands, the CHE bushings rotate in the rocker and are not press fit in so any wear is not going to be in the same one spot.
Loose bushings...just can't see why that would be a good idea
@@powellmachineinc Not loose. Precision fit. Look into them and maybe test a set. Lot's of people using them with success. The press fit bushings all show wear in the same spot after use. Not the CHE bushings.
Yes, the bushings are better. Good look at it and the difference.
Ty!
Needle bearings in an engine usually dont end well. Not a huge fan of bushings, but far superior to needles. Needles are not great due to the concentrated load peaks. You can see the needle patterns in the one you showed. Start with the correct material, centerless ground, and dlc type coated steel on steel. I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night 😅
Thanks for the tips!
I worked at a Yamaha dealer and the racers “YZ” engine and….well all had needle bearings on the connecting rod. They had adjustable valves lash so I was always in there. These guys ran hard and always in for something they broke. Never saw any visible failure and these had 8k red line tachometers. Personally I’ve owned 17.
I am sure there is a lot of “Chinisium” out there as well as US companies selling roller trunnions. But who knows if they buy overseas bearings, finished trunnions or both. GM opened a plant in China decades ago as a Buick and certain Chevys sold as if the where Cadillacs! But, 51% of every company doing business in China belongs to the government there. They reverse engineered the TECH2 scan tool, sold them for $200, and they spilled magic smoke all over the bench. GM went totally internet based in 2013. That was the last year of software updates. Everything is messed up now!
I used Crower steel roller rockers rather than the aluminum rockers everyone else was using (Crane) at the time. The cam was by Reed cams, solid roller lifter for circle track performance. .600 intake, .618 exhaust on a 305 ci v8. It ran for 4 seasons.
I bought a Brian Tooley Racing trunnion kit for my LS rebuild due to Comp Cams brand being on back order. Of the 32 bearings in the kit, i had to toss nearly half because they would seize on the shaft when installed. Summit Racing send me a second kit for free to try and build a complete set of rocker arms from both. Of the 64 total bearings, I was able to find 40 that installed properly and did not seize up.
Dang...
Did you contact BTR about your issue?
@@00dustincolvin I did. Not impressed by their customer service one bit. I was told to contact the company I bought them from. Summit didn't question me at all. They just sent the second kit.
This answers my questions on how BTR can make the stock type bearings live on their shaft mounted rocker setup.
Good info. I thought the rollers were good, but looks like I was wrong. Nice to know for a future build.
Glad it was helpful!
Great information. One would think the companies who are having these made would have figured out the problem and addressed it by now.
Maybe profits are in the way.
Definitely
I am an old novice asking novice questions. How do roller bearings last so long with the bearing and race both being rock hard and running in grease? I am talking wheel/axle bearings in old rear wheel drive cars. They last 100k routinely and seem to be the same hardness? Thanks for entertaining an old guy's questions?
Full rotation of the bearing element, proper materials and proper finish
Ball bearing, roller bearings, needle bearings are meant to be used where constant full rotation is used and repeated shock loading is low. Whenever you go from a plain bearing to a roller bearing you reduce the surface area that carries the load. That helps with reducing friction but it des not mean it is a better fit for the job. I suppose it could be asked then why do we use needle bearings in Universal joints and that's a good question and I wish I had the answer. Maybe the shock loading is not as bad as you would think?
I agree, but.... other rockers and applications live with needle bearings.
pushrod ......Love the videos, thanks for all the great information!
The main problem causing most every part of aftermarket ls valvetrain failure is greedy cam lobe designs. They push lobe design to the limits to advertise hp gains while ignoring reliability. For example, we had one ls3 camaro, gm asa cam 226/236 525 lift 110 lsa with gm blue springs make 469whp dynojet and drove 30k miles before he traded it. Another ls3 camaro made 485whp dynojet with a btr stage 4 233/250 600+ lift dual valve spring deal, they suggested replacing springs every 15k miles. Lol, the gm asa cam is in the 525hp dirt track 6.2 with blue springs, and turns 7300 for 20+ minutes in a race
There are Definitely some bad profiles out there.... but, it's rare to see one that killing parts in a hyd roller street application, if you have some I'd be eager to see them
It would be interesting to test the factory powdered metal pieces for there hardness.
Tim Allen in “Home Improvement” when asked by his boys who make bologna? He said “Magic Meat People”.
i just watched a video whear the guy was saying , watch out for the wear in trunions , he was stirring his drained oil under led light and you could see clouds of silver flowing in the oil
I've worked on custom needle roller bearing assembly machines where individual rollers and races were measured and sorted to give uniform clearances for a bearing package. The target clearance was in low microns and was crucial for longevity. Seeing the finish on that trunion I would venture a guess that clearances were probably orders of magnitude too big. Even if they weren't that finish (and the design with the groove and shoulders) would lead to contamination locally. Whatever the cause (design, material, hardness, clearances) brinelling is what I see. Once you lose your finish you're going bad fast.
My personal experience is , that if bearings are not allowed to spin 360 degrees , with good lubrication , they fail quickly . A bushing , being supported by an oil cushion all around , is much better . Bushings still wear out and eventually fail , but take a lot longer to do it .
Definitely
Except for of course the trunnion needle bearings in millions of LS, LT, and Vortec engines, you mean.
i learned that HARDENED metal was not hardened all the way when I lathed down some pins for my backhoe and after a lot of turning and sparks it suddenly got real easy to turn and remove metal :)
That is called case hardened, very few metal is through hard, just the outside layer
@@powellmachineinc yep, i learned that like i learn everything, the hard way, now i know why they are called CASE backhoes lol
Mystery Meat... gosh dang it, what movie is that from?
id be curious to see you check the comp cams ultra pro and pro magnums. as i recently have begun to run those to get away from this in a vortec.
No point-loading with the bushing. Needles point-load, so they need significant rotation to dispose of the load. Does this happen to camshafts with needle bearings?
No, normally not, doesn't happen to u joints either with proper angle
LS LT and Vortec trunnions from the factory are needle bearings. Even after the lessons learned in the LS and Vortec engines, GM still does it this way.
Good thing I swapped my BTR trunnions for yella terra roller rockers.
I've used the BTR ones, in about 7 builds. No issues yet and hopefully nothing about to happen.
The problem is.... nobody knows till u disassemble or they disintegrate
@@powellmachineinc Yeah
I have a Jeep Wrangler running a 3.6L Pentastar® V6. The engine developed a ticking sound at about 50k miles. The shop replaced my rockers, cam shafts and valves on the left engine bank. They said the rocker bearing were the point of failure. Is this the same issue you’re talking about? It’s under warrant for 100k so I’m hoping the other side fails before then if it’s going to. What’s ya think?
Ye0, those engines are bad, we sell lifters, rockers and cams often for them, they have a severe oiling problem
I wonder if the needle bearings are actually rolling or just skidding on the shaft causing friction, catastrophic friction
Those bearings working back and forth in the same track saws right down into the trunion , common with the small bearing ,trunion design in any roller rocker. Bushing best way to go . Harley was right in that set up on their rockers .
Sadly, everything is made cheap as possible with no regard to quality. There was a time you could buy quality for a price. Now you just pay more for a name on the same crap. Thanks for sharing with us!
Great point!
What symptoms do you have before complete failure? I'm getting a slight squeak on cold start and goes away once warmed up. It's an 02 5.3 with a trunnion upgrade.
I wonder if Harland Sharp has any problems with their needle bearings in the Ford FE shaft rocker systems?
I chose to use bushed rocker arms from Precision Oil Pumps.
Not enough surface area and other problems. When you reach arm breaking springs pressures, The bronze bushing lives on. If its properly lubricated will last a long long time.
What happens if you retain the oem LS rockers/bearings, and use a cam lobe design that needs less valvespring pressure, and turns more rpm safely? You lose that last 15hp from the latest/greatest every part of the valvetrain destroyer cam, but find replacing broken valvetrain parts every 15k miles is no longer necessary
The double race/loose needle design is scary
Are there good aftermarket alternatives?
Another good video. Mystery meat and Chinese math, keep them coming. 😂
Lol, will do
What's your experience with the roller tips on roller rockers? Are some better than others and worth putting in a high performance engine that end up with high miles?
Tip has no bearing so they live
I would have honestly assumed the needle bearings would be the superior design. Interesting. Stock stamped rockers & fulcrums don't seem so archaic after all.Do you see similar failures on camshaft needle bearings? I would think the cam bearing deal would be long lived due to the fact that they constantly rotate, as opposed to the back and forth on the rockers.
Definitely
How do the factory GM roller bearings live so long when the aftermarket bearings won't stay together? Is it just the quality of the trunion material and machine finish?
the factory deal has a inner and outer bearing race, its not actually riding on the trunion, plus very low spring pressure and mild cams
When you had them in your hand, could you feel slack?
No
Bearings in a reciprocating motion should move far enough that the needles (or balls or rollers) makes at least a full rotation. You can calculate how much angular movement the rocker needs to make using this formula: ((needle diameter) / (shaft diameter)) x 720 degrees. The larger the roller, the more angular movement is required to get a full rotation. I doubt that you are getting enough rotation to fulfil that requirement. This is also why plain bearing typically work better for reciprocation motion. Most bearings components are all 52100 bearing steel, typically HRC 60-62, so I doubt that is the issue, although a softer shaft could cause problems.
hold back ur excitement, lol, still learing i am external engine guy, fun to see interior work and specs
I think if the metallurgy is right, then the problem would be finish. A "rough" finish produces small contact points instead of a wide smooth area thus concentrating force and causing breakage of those points.
I don't understand why you would add point loads when you don't need to. I wonder how much of that wear is due to where they are in terms of oiling priority.
Guess I'm pulling my rockers this weekend
Definitely worth a look
Not hard enough at the running surface..? (Before seeing anything) - needs to be .040 deep at the least, RC 58 or better, smooth, round…
Both needles, shaft, etc. need to have the right finish. (From reading Torrington docs many years ago.)
Good info
Aren’t factory Ls rockers roller?
Yes they are but the shaft is made of powdered metal. I would be curious how hard the factory powdered metal pieces are.
They have a inner and outer race, plus only 70 lbs of seat pressure
ya wonder how hard the roller in the bearing is
At what point is a trunnion kit necessary over stock?
I asking you because Google will get me a bunch of BS.
I'd say anything high mileage and or with increased spring pressure
Thank you!
Can we order that from you for ls7 1.8 rockers?
Yes sir, they are on our website
A sintered bushing can carry a lot more load than a needle setup.
Absolutely
Seemed like this was a Just For Men - Mustache and Beard, commercial. lol :)
Lol
What happened to quality control? This issue is everywhere!
Covid...lol
@@powellmachineinctrue...
To bad you guys don’t ship parts to Canada .
We do, often
I couldn’t change the shipping criteria from United States to Canada on the website. My BTR Trunnion kit roller bearings are trashed just like the ones you showed on the UA-cam video. Must switch to the bronze bushings style.
@vikenlink just emailed my wife, she can do it manually powellmachineinc@gmail.com
bearings are meant to rotate in one direction not change directions back and forth it creates a flat spots
Smedding Performance full roller rockers blue wont last 2,000 miles. Ask me how I know.
****
Ive seen roller lifter bearings just as bad.
**
Neither case were the springs over 350 open.
All these places are just buying import parts and reboxing, you can actually come to my shop and watch parts being made.....
you have a set of 1: 7 for a 5.2
What is a 5.2?
@@powellmachineinc 318 in a jeep grand Cherokee, I have the harland sharp 1.7 now but the getting up in miles,
I got a set of rockers with comp cams trunion kit in them. So basicly, i got junk? Lol
well.....
@@powellmachineinc one thing I learned is if you follow what everyone else does on the internet, that's not always the best way.
Bushed trunions win here! Wheres that kid that said something like, "why spend the money here when you can go to (some other place) for $159"? Here's your explanation of the difference in and educated choice and Facebook/forum "informative" buying.
Definitely
They probably went cheap and did not use a bearing steel.
Very possible
"hard as chinese arithmetic"....lmao...that was great...!...are those GM rocker trunions or after market...?..or it dont matter...u see it in "all" them...?..the bronze bushings r a great fix...!..!..like u said...something has 2 b wearable...!..another good video.!
These are aftermarket
@@powellmachineinc ok...thanks...Daniel...
Sad when you can’t even get a quality product anymore wonder why the Dodge trunnions are having issues.
Love the accent. But, yep, that makes sense. Poorly engineered gimmicks rarely work. All those components should be harder than hammered horseshit or it's going to blow out. There are always, or nearly always, some imperfections in the steel. So, your trunnions may have some slight imperfections. It happens.
Definitely
The problem these days is you just don't know what material is being used in anything you buy.
It can look perfectly good but it's made from crap.
The overseas manufacturers of our goods seem to do this all the time. They have the technology and machinery to make the part and make it to precise tolerances but they make it from rubbish. It's crazy, the manufacturing of the part is generally the expensive part of the job, the material costs run second.
They are ruining perfectly good parts because they cheap out on materials.
Another chinesium product from Rock Auto,Summit Racing,etc,etc,etc.
Yup
That looks like some really low grade metal...
Yep
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP
Very welcome
Why do I feel like you're that jacked and have never worked out a day in your life..
I go to to the gym 6 days a week, I use to be 315 lbs
@powellmachineinc3179 Well, it looks like the hard work is paying off!
I’m claiming cheap chinesium steel and poor QC in general does anyone sell good old American steel any more Dumb question
Most steel is not produced here because of our government
@@powellmachineinc fact actual
Hanahahaha, hard as Chinese arithmetic…..oh man
Lol
That surface finish IS garbage! If that could be compared to the surface finish a used caged tapered bearing from a Ford 8.8 pinion bearing.....shoooooooot. Wow, I'd see wheel or differential side bearings with 100k plus miles with that kind of damage.
Those are good designs on paper. Poor in the field. Very little time in R&D and straight to sales.
Chinese arithematic? They dont use arabic numerals..? Im pretty sure math is the same regardless of race
Chinese metallurgy. Bad chemistry.
Probably