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Well I love Peter Jackson's movie and it came very close to the original let's be honest this wasn't tokens Lord of the rings this was Peter Jackson's interpretation of tolkien's Lord of the rings... And he really went overboard with The Hobbit can't even call at the Hobbit You might as well say loosely inspired by the Hobbit.
What's so great about the book, is that Tolkien spends a few paragraphs to tell us about what happened to Bill the Pony. He was so fond of horses, he had to make sure we understand that Bill was going to be alright.
I think that is another WW1 moment that affected Tolkien severely. Horses were still used during WW1 and many died. While writing the book, I would assume he wanted to avoid needless horse deaths. Just my assumption though
I always thought it was because so many ponies die in the hobbit (I think 2 or three sets of 15-20) that his editors made him explain that both Bill the pony, and all the horses they lose in Bree, have a happily ever after. I like your explanation though
I love how in the book Gandalf puts a blessing (spell?) of warding(?) on Bill saying (I looked this up because my brain is not THAT good 😉) "You are a wise beast, and have learned much in Rivendell. Make your ways to places where you can find grass, and so come in time to Elrond's house, or wherever you wish to go.” It's very touching and demonstrates Gandalf's softer side. ☺
I think Tolkien himself deprived us of two chances to see Gandalf's full power. The first was the depiction of the fight between Gandalf the Grey and the 5 Nazgul atop Weathertop. It's seen in the distance by Strider and Hobbits as lighting and Gandalf briefly describes it but to have a detailed depiction and/or scene adaptation would have been epic. The second is when Gandalf the White stops the Witchking from entering Minas Tirith. The Witchking issues his challenge and Gandalf rebukes him, then Rohan arrives and the Witchking departs without a fight... Now, I must mention how PJ completely insulted Gandalf by implying that the Witchking could break his staff. There's no way a leveled up Witchking could've lasted long against Gandalf the White, especially after we know Gandalf the Grey already fought the Witchking and 4 other Nazgul to a draw on, the before mentioned, Weathertop.
Its kind of funny in the books later on when Gandalf keeps preparing himself for the showdown only to be told that the Witch King died because some chick stabbed it in the face.
I know it was changed in the movies probably just to hype up the Witch King (which I think it's good) but technically the fact he broke his staff doesn't mean he's stronger or that gandalf is weak as it was also shown in the movies Gandalf beat the Balrog only using his sword.
Also, Peter Jackson and even Dir Ian McKellen mentioned that they hated fact that Gandalf the White has no flaws. He’s perfect. That’s not good in a movie that needs to create arcs and so on. But I agree, it’s makes no sense for that scene with the Witch King.
The Witch King who attacked Minas Tirith, as Tolkien writes in his letters, was much more powerful than when he was in Rivendell. As they say in the book, in fact, the success or failure of the Nazgul depends on Sauron and how much power he grants them and how much power he allows them to use. However, it is true that the scene of the witch king shattering Gandalf's staff is inappropriate.
I think the Witch-King should last for a decent fight, when empowered to the limits - he would still lose though, and he'd not be powerful enough to break Gandalf's staff. The reason for me thinking that, is the rules of the Istari, particularly the whole "forbidden to match the Dark Lord's power with power". He'd be limited. Not limited enough to lose, but probably limited enough to have to work a little to beat a proficient sorcerer-wraith supplied with the power of Sauron himself.
This series is amazing, I just showed my son the movies and started reading the books again myself. I find it useful to note the differences between the text and the movies. He cried at the end of the return of the king and told him that he needed to try and start his journey with the hobbit. Very proud of the young Tolkienien I'm raising.
@@Mazz3D To me, the books are the best books ever, and the movies are the best movies ever, so knowing the differences between them is more to make sure that you understand and appreciate each. So you have excellent taste with your kid.
The wargs arriving at this point in the book make me laugh. I don't think Tolkien intended it as a comedic moment, but it always gives me a chuckle. Boromir: I absolutely refuse to go into Moria. Wargs: Aawooooo!!! Boromir: How far to Moria?!
There is a humour to it, but It's also probably one of the things that made Boromir such a great commander in the field, he did not let his pride stand in the way of instantly changing his mind if the situation on the battlefield took a sudden change, if what formerly seemed a poor option to him out of those available is now the best tactical option in the new circumstances, he will change his mind and his plans without hesitation.
@@pettytyrant2720 Boromir is a great character and a true leader. He would have made for a great Steward, perhaps even better than Faramir in some respects, had it not been for the Ring.
Glóin didn't go to Rivendell to ask about the Dwarves lost in Moria. He went to Rivendell to warn Bilbo that Sauron was looking for him, and to find out what they should do about Sauron's veiled threats to Erebor.
Although they did go to Rivendell to bring tidings of Sauron’s messenger, the *council* they were seeking was in regard to Balin’s company. They didn’t need advice on what to do about Sauron’s messenger. Obviously, they weren’t going to accept any sort of treaty or partnership. But they did need advice on what they should do about their lost company of dwarves in Moria. “It is largely on account of Balin that I have come. To ask the advice of those that dwell in Rivendell.” - Gloin to Frodo at the feast the night before the council.
@@factorfantasyweekly You are forgetting that Gloin said if Frodo didn't know why he was in Rivendell, then we will not speak of it. Also, during the actual council meeting Gloin says "And so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo..." So, I'm going to agree with SuStel, mainly because he beat me to it.
The point is that the dwarves came for multiple reasons. Warning bilbo is a part of that, but isn’t so much for advice. The advice they were seeking was for Balin’s lost company. My point is that making a factual statement like “Gloin didn’t go to Rivendell to ask about the Dwarves lost in Moria.” is just incorrect. Both things can be right. As stated, they came for multiple reasons. As for what Gloin said to Frodo, I am not forgetting. He said he wouldn’t speak of things before Frodo asked specifically about Balin. Once Frodo specifically asked about Balin, *then* Gloin opened up and said that is largely why they came. All-in-all, I’m not disagreeing about them coming to warn Bilbo. 😂 That’s a fact. I’m saying they *also* came to seek advice about Balin and Moria.
Here's something that most people don't understand about the book. "Speak friend and enter" IS NOT A RIDDLE. It's a translation error on Gandalf's part. The Sindarin word "pedo" can mean either "speak" or "say." Gandalf chose the wrong interpretation when he's translating. Gandalf credits Merry not because Merry figured out any riddle, but because he simply called attention to the instruction by asking what "Speak friend and enter" is supposed to mean. Gandalf laughs at himself because he realizes he simply mistranslated the instructions.
FWIW, 'to speak' is recorded by the OED with a transitive meaning dating back (surprise surprise) to Old English. Apart from the Sindarin conflating, the thing works in English too - in fact Gandalf says (quoting from memory here, so forgive me if I'm not precise) that the inscription should have been "speak 'friend' and enter".
Gandalf himself says it's just a simple instruction, too simple "for a loremaster in these trouble times. Those were happier days", when you could just literally leave the key hanging from the front door and it was allright.
Another important moment regarding Bill that wasn't in the movie -- Gandalf places a blessing of protection on Bill which, while fairly minor, is somewhat important later on.
10:22 We must have two different versions of the book, because in my copy Merry has no part in solving the riddle of the door; Gandalf figures that out entirely on his own: "With a suddenness that startled them all the wizard sprang to his feet. He was laughing! 'I have it!' he cried. 'Of course, of course! Absurdly simple, like most riddles when you see the answer.'"
@@nigeldepledge3790 Merry asks that question in both the book and the film. The claim made in the video is that "Another line shift is that in the movie they have Frodo be the one to recognize the simplicity of the riddle and solve it; in the book it is actually Merry who realizes this and Gandalf credits him with helping open the door." Book Merry doesn't "realize" anything; his only contribution is the query, "What does it mean by 'speak, friend, and enter'?", while film Merry asks, "What do you suppose that means?" Afterward, book Gandalf says Merry had been "on the right track", but neither book Merry nor film Merry solves the riddle, or even recognizes that it is a riddle. If there's a shift, it is from book Gandalf's realizing the nature of the riddle and solving it on his own to Frodo's having this insight. Merry's part is the same.
I quite appreciate your opening comments. Understanding the differences has merits, but either way you’re looking at the best books ever and the best movies ever. They are both fully worth someone’s time, and I come to channels like this because of how much I love both
The worst part of the whole film and the worst change of all was when they changed the encounter with the Witch-King to have him break Gandalf’s Staff. In the book, Gandalf exposes his power and the Witch-King flees.
It was an absolute travesty to the film and an insult to Gandalf to imply the Witchking could break Gandalf's staff. A strengthened Witchking still doesn't match up with Gandalf the White. But the Witchking doesn't flee directly from Gandalf's challege at the gate, he enters the gate and all flee save one, Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Gandalf issues his challenge stopping the Witchking's entry and then the crow calls and the horns of Rohan sound off. The Witchking then turns and exits, depriving us of the ultimate showdown...
@@philt2170 it wouldn't really be an ultimate showdown then, would it? Like all the changes made for the films, it was done for filmic reasons. It wasn't a travesty. They needed the situation to feel hopeless 'even Gandalf is about to fail' to really up the ante
@@gerardmonsen1267 That's exactly right. Saying "The Witch King flees" is completely incorrect. Here is a quote that accurately reflects what I believed about the Witch-King: "His power fluctuated greatly through his life as a wraith, as his strength was bound up with Sauron's own; the more powerful Sauron became, the more powerful the Nazgûl were." When he confronted Gandalf and broke is staff, that was not a feat he could do any old day. He said, "This is my hour."
Video Update: As many people in the comments have rightly pointed out, I don’t think Gandalf knew exactly what “Durin’s Bane” was before entering Moria. Although he would have been familiar with the lore of a Balrog, he probably didn’t guess that a Balrog was Durin’s Bane. Thanks for your comments! 🙏🏼😊
The whole journey though Moria is one of my favorite parts in the book, its simply strange how you get a sense of that something is wrong while reading it, especially in the part of the well that when Pippin hears the tapping back on the well he wishes to have something to at least cover the well, and the whole nameless things that are given a little brief mention after we see Gandalf recount the fight and pursuit of the Balrog
Aragorn's comment that he too once entered Moria is a throwback to one of Tolkien's many early drafts for the character. Aragorn was originally going to be called Trotter and have artificial legs, having been tortured in Moria by a Nazgul. Thankfully that storyline was abandoned and Trotter became Strider.
Their time in Moria is very different in the books! I understand it for time restrictive purposes. But it’s cool to take a look at everything missed from the time in the pass of Caradhras to when they leave the mines. Next week I cover the Balrog. 👀
It's so fascinating how/what the changed for the movie to make it work. So many seem to not understand that a direct one-to-one translation, even truncated (which in and of itself strays into the realm of rewriting), would never work for the visual medium. At least not if it is meant to appeal to most people.
When it comes to the clash with the wargs, it’s partly a matter of running time and partly the production cost and practicality of filming the scene. In addition, during the BTS commentary, Peter Jackson noted that the film story arc mostly emphasizes the journey of Frodo to destroy the ring, and a lot of stuff that might’ve looked cool didn’t serve that story arc. Even Christopher Lee, a HUGE fan, recognized how impractical it would have been to do a “perfect” page-screen translation , saying, that it “could go on and on and on”.
The problem is some of those changes went WAY longer than the original book scenes would have. Gandalf against the Balrog at the door would not have been as long as all the jumping over falling stairs malarkey. The balrog moving around the mines and thus having them collapse every time he did so was nonsense. It made no sense. Having all the spider-orcs, spider orcs, does whatever a spider orc does.. climbing over the mines and completely surrounding the fellowship and then just running away also made NO sense. It was terribly poor direction. The orcs worked for the Balrog. Having Gandalf put a shutting spell upon the door and having “something” dark and dangerous break it and throw Gandalf back down the stairs, so shaken they would have to go on without light (bar their glowing swords) would have been much more intensifying AND made more actual sense. Jackson broke the verisimilitude by making these Hollywoodified blunders.
I dislike all the changes to Gimli in the films, but the ones around his expectations of finding a happy Balin and Company ruling Moria really baffles me. I don't see what purpose it serves or why they did it. It makes Gimli look very stupid, and it gives viewers who are unaware of the history the impression the kingdom, if it has been lost, must have been recently lost, which contradicts not only other dialogue but the visual look of Moria itself. Bakshi managed this in less than a minute by just having Gimli, when they discuss going to Moria, simply say, "My cousin Balin led a company of dwarves there many years ago, but we have heard nothing from them in all that time." I'm quoting from memory but the point is it's simple, not entirely accurate (they did hear from them for the first few years and news seemed good, then silence) but it does the job of explaining Moria is old and deserted for a long time, Balin led some dwarves there, no one knows what happened to them. All in a line of dialogue. How or why PJ and co made such a mess of Gimli over so simple a thing is baffling to me. Maybe someone else might be able to explain PJ's thinking behind this change, as I cannot see a reason for it.
Peter left out a LOT of Gandalf's most astounding feats of power, supposedly on the poor excuse that Peter dislikes "pyrotechnics", EXCEPT when Saruman, the Witch-King, or anyone else does them. Gandalf's battle with ALL the Nazgul on Amon Sul, where he caused even the Witch-king to be, in Tolkien's words, badly "shaken by the fires of Gandalf,", the contest of wizardry/sorcery/spiritual power between Gandalf and the Balrog for control of the doors to Balin's chamber etc..
In fact, Jackson missed an opportunity to show us Gandalf's fight with the Nazgul. Tolkien doesn't show us because his entire story is the narration of the four hobbits; thus, we see only what the hobbits see. The movie, being a completely different medium, did not stick to the hobbits' narration. There was no need to give us only a second-hand account of Gandalf's battle on Weathertop.
@@nigeldepledge3790 Entirely agreed. But, worse than only giving us an after the fact account of Gandalf's battle, via narration, they ommitted the battle entirely. I THOUGHT we would get to see an alternate timeline version of it in the Desolation of Smaug 2nd Hobbit movie, since they transferred the Dol Guldur events into it, but NOPE again... Instead, we got a battle of five armies movie where the only present council member OMITTED from the battle with the 9, was Gandalf, even though in the novels he was the ONLY council member ( aside from the sadly neglected Glorfindel ) specifically stated to have had a direct battle with them. I still mostly love the movies, the 1st 2 Hobbit movies included, but the omission of that scene, like the omission of the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog for control of the chamber door, is an omission that I hated.
Absolutely loved the fight with the wolves and wargs in the book. Gandalf was portrayed great in the movies, but definitely would’ve been more OP if this scene and the fight with the Nazgûl had been included. The hobbit movies seem made him seem incompetent in his power at parts, especially in the extended edition with battle of the five armies. I seriously wonder what the filmmakers were thinking there.
Gandalfs power was not omnipotent. He is not an equal of Sauron in power. Sauron was originally an Ainur who was a near equal to Aule of the Ainur. Morgoth lured Sauron to his service and was Morgoths second in command. If you recall from the books (if you read them) Gandalf almost lost the battle of power with the Balrog twice. Once at the dwarven tombs rear doors atop the stairs and again atop the mountain when Gandalfs immortal essence was ripped from his mortal body, upon killing the Balrog, and sent back to the undying lands. By their powers the Valar then sent him back to his body again to complete his mission. (Though it is not explained in the books somehow a Balrog is granted the power to kill it's own slayer as it's final blow.) I can only draw this conclusion based on the stories in the book where no one that has slain a balrog has ever survived it. edit: also balrogs were Lesser Ainur called Maiar that Morgoth lured to his service and perverted their essence. Which is what Gandalf is a Lesser Ainur also known as Olorin. Olorin was a Maiar who's power was the casting of wisdom through dreams.
@sparkeyjames Sauron is a Maiar, though. He's not the same as Morgoth, who is an Ainur. Sauron served under him - and he was nowhere close to Aüle - who was also Ainur. Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar, lesser beings.
The first thing I would've done before entering Moria would've been to blow up the dam holding the lake there. Let's see how long the kraken lives with only air to breathe.
If Jackson had shown Galdalf's power with the wargs, it would have been one more point of contention later when he doesn't just defeat all the baddies himself. You've heard how people have complained about the eagles. It's better that Gandalf is portrayed as a messenger, sent to inspire hope and cooperation rather than a great source of deus ex machina magic. This leaves the heroic actions in the hands of regular people, which was JRRT's entire point.
I understand Jackson's desire not to show Gandalf as the powerful being he was at this point in the story, but the part that stood out to me in the theatre is how he changed the decision to go through Moria (and encounter the Balrog) from Gandalf to Frodo. In the book Gandalf DOES know there are "things against which I have not yet been tested" and could die. But he chooses to go there anyway. That is the kind of sacrifice that turns him from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. Its one of my few gripes about their adaptation because it is a small thing that tells a lot about Gandalf's character/morals.
So my brother just got a call for a job, he'd been out of work for several months, and they wanted him to start in a couple of days. I laughed to listen to him explain how he just entered Moria and would need at least two weeks before he could start. I think they gave him the two weeks.
I can understand why they might want to cut the battle with the wargs for time, as it doesn't really serve a purpose for the overall narrative. However, it does serve the purpose of being the first time that the Fellowship threw down with anything as a group (not counting the hobbits and Aragorn at Weathertop, as that was not the full Felowship). This is their first time seeing each others' fighting style, showing their capabilities, and giving them all a sort of win after being kicked in the teeth by the snow storm.
It always seemed strange, even dumb for Gandalf to let Frodo decide. Frodo's never been outside of the Shire until now and would know nothing about the best route to take. He didn't know whether to go right or left when leaving Rivendell.
I took it as Frodo was the leader of the Fellowship as he was the Ringbearer and everyone else is solely there to assist him “as long as they will” or whatever Elrond says. Everyone that had an opinion had already offered their advice and it was up to the Ringbearer to decide what he wanted to do.
Great wisdom would not have saved them, as Saruman fell despite having plenty of it. Frodo was simple and innocent. While his instincts did often land the company in murky waters, they were always saved in the end by one or other miracle, in a "Jesus takes the wheel" sort of way, Frodo was very much like a child, having to be rescued by some higher force every time he made a mess of things. He was like the youngest child that always gets defended by the parent. The same can be said about all the hobbits. That's why, when Frodo left, Galdalf was relieved to learn that Frodo still had Sam.. Not Aragorn, not Legolas, but Sam. Gandalf the white was much more aware of the same. While Gandalf the Grey was often dismissive of Merry and Pippin, Gandalf the White predicted that the two hobbits would play a great role in the upcoming wars.
And again, this is where the movie differs from the book. In the book, Gandalf debated going into Moria with Aragorn. Gandalf wanted the fellowship to go under the mountains to get out of sight for a while. Aragorn, as this video noted, had been through Moria once, and didn't want to go back. Legolas didn't want to go, but Gimli did because he wanted to find out what happened to Balin. Boromir wanted to go through the Gap of Rohan, and stated he would not go through Moria unless the vote of the whole company was against him. He then asked what the Ring-bearer thought. Frodo replied that he didn't want to go through Moria, but he would if Gandalf advised it.
Well, after Pippin throws a stone into the well in the book, no drums are heard. What is heard is a hammer which, by all accounts, is sending some kind of Morse signal. Tolkien never specifies what it is, but it can be assumed that Pippin's stone has alerted orc guards or similar to something unusual happening in the mine's paths, and the signal may be what sets off the entire orc force to attack the party a day and a half later in the chamber of Mazarbul.
I don't know if you touched on this in the previous video covering Elrod's Concil at Rivendell, but one of the other big reasons why Gloin and Gimli were sent to Rivendell was because King Dain II Ironfoot had received a message from "envoys" saying their master was looking for "a little trinket", of a golden ring, and that if he gave them info on it as well as other agreements, they would return to him something like... three? of the original Seven Dwarf Rings (the other four purportedly being consumed in dragon fire). King Dain II told the envoys where they could stick it, to which they replied with thin-veiled threats, and left. The High King of the Dwarves knew that this was seriously suspicious, so he wanted this information to be sent to Elrond (and I think a similar thing happened to King Thranduil in Mirkwood).
I've often wondered about the omission of this marvellous 'scene' from the books (i.e. Gandalf torching the wolves). I feel like Jackson goes out of his way to nerf Gandalf. Even when he faces the Balrog, it's not readily obvious that the bridge breaking is GANDALF's doing. In the film, one could think that the bridge breaks simply from the immense weight of the Balrog - but this is NOT the case.
Gandalf's fight scene would have been cool to see, but I don't mind it having been left out. What bothers me vastly more are the character changes Jackson made in the movies. Tolkien was extremely careful and deliberate with all of his characters and he was very intentional in telling you about the characters via their actions and insights. Merry and Pippin needed to show occasional wisdom so that they didn't just become annoying comic relief and so you understood why they chose to follow Frodo and Sam and why Elrond and the council allowed the them to join the fellowship. Boromir showing his frustration in such a petulant way was a key insight into his character (and a contrast to his brother, Faramir, who Jackson treated inexcusably). Gimli being aware of the likely fate of Balin and his people similarly helps to keep him from being the dumb comic relief character Jackson turned him into. It seems like Jackson never really understood why Tolkien made the character trait and expression choices he did. Honestly, even when the movies came out I wasn't really all that happy with them, and as the years have gone by I've grown more and more critical and displeased with the choices Jackson made, especially concerning his portrayal of the characters.
Actually, I think the translations resulted not from Jackson's ignorance, but the fact that he was taking into account the average ignorance of the audience. Think about the average person you know. Now, consider that half the people in the world are less intelligent than that person. Explains a lot, doesn't it?
I feel like some of these changes, particularly the shuffling of who does what among the party, really undermine the core concept of the fellowship from tolkein's perspective. It was, always, not about any one of them being the hero, or the heel.
One minor correction: you said after Pippin tosses the stone in the well, the Company hear drums. Actually they hear tapping like a signal in the deep.
Yeah. I think Gimli says it's a hammer tapping on stone or he's never heard one. Then everything goes quiet again and everyone is uneasy about what it could mean.
Yeah I'd say t was definitely a mistake made here, I'd trust to a dwarves ear to know the sound of a hammer on stone. And Gimli comes across as being very certain of his words. It is presumably goblin communications, but I always wondered if it were possibly some trapped dwarf, taken for fun by the goblins from Balin's company and forgotten about, deep down in the dark lower levels of the mines. I find the book version overall more chilling and haunting, we never get a sure answer of what was tapping with a hammer down there and I like that ambiguity Tolkien gives it, and prefer it does not provoke an immediate response, but just ups the tension as the chapter approaches Balin's tombs and its climax with the Balrog.
...tap-tom, tom-tap, tap-tap, tom... ...They sounded disquietingly like signals of some sort.... ...'that was the sound of a hammer, or I have never heard one' said Gimli.
Further changes: the Watcher in the Water is never named in the movie, and it isn't revealed to be a "kraken"; we never see anything but its tentacles, and they only crawl on the ground, not swirl about in the air.
not sure if it´s the extended version only but you also see it´s head when it tries to eat frodo and then it literally climbs out of the water to smash the door and it can clearly be identified as "kraken-like" at least
@@daniel56149 My post was a little unclear. In the movie, it's never named. In the book, you don't see a "kraken," and the tentacles just wriggle on the ground. In the book, it's not even clear if the tentacles all belong to a single creature.
@@SuStel oh, i see now! interesting, i`ve seen the movie before i read the books, so maybe i just assumed in my head that it´s a kraken since i saw one in the movie. would be interesting to know Jacksons reasoning behind showing the whole thing
@@daniel56149 Oh, Peter Jackson is fairly predictable. "Bigger! More! Cut off his head! Make it visceral!" Tolkien wrote the Watcher in the Water to be a nervous buildup leading to a frightened retreat. Jackson directed the Watcher to be a jump scare leading to a boss battle.
Major change: They didn't just find Legolas' arrows, he COLLECTED them. So his arrows were NOT INFINITE. On a more serious note, my interpretation of the lack of warg bodies was always that there never were any wargs, and it was all an illusion. What does the book say about that?
I don’t think it was an illusion, but rather a testament to the abilities of Sauron’s hounds. In Tolkien’s writings, creatures were never just mindless animals. They had personalities, and could communicate with Sauron and orcs and the like. It’s only speculative, but the dark spirits inside the wargs are probably why they disappeared. They were either spirited away, or other wargs came and moved the bodies. Or the wargs never truly died but their beaten up bodies were reanimated and able to run away to regain strength. It’s only speculative though as Tolkien never specified a direct answer.
You didn't mention that Gandalf puts a spell of protection on Bill to get him back to Rivendell safely. I loved that moment on the book. I imagine Gandalf put a similar spell on each member of the Fellowship as well.
Such a good breakdown. I also love the movies, but I do think PJ went a lil heavy handed with blaming things on Pippin. If you watch the trilogy with Pippin in mind he essentially causes more trouble for the fellowship than Saruman and Sauron combined. It’s a lil too cruel to put that much blame on the poor guy. And make him that dimwitted. Made me feel bad for him.
"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria. Pedo Mellon a Minno. Im Narvi hain echant. Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin." The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Say, friend, and enter. I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Eregion drew these signs. It's been a long time since I read the books so I might be missing something, but I never understood why nobody read the inscription aloud in Sindarin.
The watcher slammed the door shut, uprooted trees and threw them across it. It did not destroy the door. Remember that shutting the door was enough to stop Sauron after he destroyed Eregion. He couldn’t destroy the door and neither could the watcher.
Gandolf's display of power in the movies was tremendously underpowered as to the abilities a master wizard should possess. Aside from the hand to hand fight with the Balrog that was cool.
Of all the changes P.J. makes this is the one I agree with, (probably the only one) instead of a small stone Pippin knocks in an entire suit of armor. This would be enough noise to warrant investigation. You say that Gandalf knew about the balrog (and wasn't worried) but, in the book, he seems surprised by it. So much so, that Legolas is the first to figure it out, I know you are keeping this for next week, but you did say Gandalf knew a balrog was in Moria. I don't know if you said anything about there not being any dead dwarves in the entrance of Moria in the book.
Yep! I mention there not being any dead dwarves, and they don’t find out the situation with the dwarves until they reach the tomb of Balin. Also, in regard to the Balrog, I do cover that next week. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear in this video about this point… Gandalf knows what a Balrog is and the existence of one in Moria: Durin’s Bane. But in the book (as I discuss next week), he never gets a clear image of the being he faces at the door to Balin’s tomb. So he doesn’t jump to the conclusion of what it might be. It’s only when it approaches in full sight that Legolas recognizes it. But just because Legolas recognizes it first doesn’t mean Gandalf doesn’t know what it is. It’s only that Legolas saw it first and said something.
I do not remember at any point where Gandalf claimed, or it was even intimated that he was aware of the Balrog. It struck me that he was nearly as surprised as the rest of the party when it finally appeared.
You're right. In the book, Gandalf puts a locking spell on a door, and is almost broken by the counter spell of something he feels on the other side, but not knowing what it is. Gandalf then comes tumbling down the stairs with the stairway collapsing behind him. Also, he heard the orcs say, "Gash," which is their word for fire, and he opines whether they mean the lower passages are on fire. Then on the bridge, when the Balrog actually appears, Gandalf says to himself, "Gash. Now I understand."
For me the blown up fight scene against the watcher is just too much. Seems like horror for horror's sake, a fight against a random monster, considering it is not connected to Sauron or Saruman. It is also not necessary for pacing as we've just had the Carradhras scene a minute ago.
And it's not even much of a horror, just an initial jumpscare, and then Frodo flying in the air became outright ridiculous. But subtle horror and Jackson really do not go well together, he totally destroyed the Dead Marshes by being so obvious and on-the-nose.
Peter Jackson said he downplayed the Fellowships main players true powers to create a sense of real hopelessness. My biggest pet peeve was when the witch king broke Gandalf’s staff in the movie. The book scene was way more suspenseful in my opinion. Gandalf riding up with Shadowfax the only horse in middle earth that could withstand the evil.
With the adaptation from book to movie, Peter Jackson's team made a lot of interesting choices, some that you might even prefer from the book, to others that you mentally may consider as apocryphal. But with every adaptation, there are clues and consistencies that are telling as far as where the artists are placing their focus. For the Peter Jackson movies, the emphasis wasn't on Gandalf and his powers, even after he became Gandalf the White. For instance, there was a struggle in the movie between Saruman and Gandalf, both knocking each other around with a physical form of magic, at Isengard. We hear absolutely nothing about Gandalf's fight against the Ringwraiths at Weathertop. There are no great fireworks from Gandalf or Gandalf's staff at the fight of Minas Tirith: in fact, Gandalf's staff is broken, and he has to rely on a sword (a melee weapon), until he apparently has the time to find a new staff by the time of Aragorn's coronation. So, the entire Peter Jackson Trilogy is not about Gandalf's power. In fact, it could be argued that we see a 'courageous Gandalf,' or a more 'scholarly Gandalf' portrayal perhaps, with Peter Jackson's movies. Gandalf's best moments were his character scenes with the hobbits and his scenes with Aragorn, and his most powerful scene was in The Two Towers at Rohan with King Theoden's transformation. I really liked the scene in The Return of the King where Gandalf rides in on Shadowfax with the light showing on his staff, and the orcs are given pause when they realize they will have to contend with a powerful wizard. But we don't get the powerful, wiping out goblins in a single powerful flash Gandalf from the Hobbit, or any type of fireball from Gandalf. So the focus was more on character development and the actual apocalyptic feeling of struggle instead of what you might have interpreted or thought possible from the book. Perhaps there may be an interpretation of The Lord of the Rings in the future that may give more of an allowance towards Gandalf's actual powers, or give a more balanced view of the struggle vs practical ability.
Great video with a lot of respect for both the movies and the books. I love both. I would love to see an animated LOTR show that adapts the books 1-1. No plot changes. Sure maybe some pacing etc but keep it as close to the books as they can. Would be great.
I just want to point out that the difference between a pond and a lake is depth, not surface area. A lake can be small but very deep and a pond can be very large but shallow...
The question is how did Gollum get into the mine? Did he manage to sneak in unnoticed while the watcher was destroying the gate? If he was following them how did he get in?
The Tale of Years states that in August of 3018, all trace of Gollum is lost and, it’s possible, that to flee from the elves he entered Moria (from the east) and passed through. However, when he eventually found his way to the West-gate he could not get out and was trapped.
@@troysnyder1140 Actually he should had been able to get out of the west gate if he wants to becuse Gandalf or Gimli said from the inside u can just push the door open but from the outside its impossible to get in unless u know the password!
I always felt like this was one of the more important scenes that got omitted. Not only does it show some of Gandalf's power, it also sends up a signal of Gandalf's power like a beacon flare to any being with the ability to perceive it. Most notably, he gains the attention of a great dark power in the mountain, that he fears and suspects is the Balrog. Now the Balrog knows they're coming, and knows one of the Maiar is with them.
You kind of gloss over the whole "wargs are four times the size of wolves" but in reality, wolves are massive. Way bigger than what you'd call a "big dog." They aren't just "wild german shepherds." Wolves are actually very terrifying. There's a reason why wolves were considered to be the main competition of humanity up until very recently(late 19th century streetlights basically) and that's because a wolf can take down a human without issue, and worse than that, they are team players. If you woke up in Middle Earth and your village of 200 armed men had to face down a pack of say, 4-5 wargs, you'd definitely have a very slim chance of having nightmares for the rest of your life. The Fellowship had a grizzled war veteran, a ranger with royal blood, an immortal elf, a decked out dwarf elite soldier, four hobbits(who, according to the books have almost supernatural stealth abilities) and one of the few wizards in existence and they were very concerned about wargs. Anyway, my point is that while watchers in waters and balrogs are incredibly terrifying, your average person was probably more concerned about running into a "pcp wolf on steroids" than first age monsters. Our wolves are 4th of the size of wargs and one of our first things on our "to do list" when we "teched up" to firearms and street lamps was to wipe the wolves out from anywhere near where humans live. It's pretty much the only reason you can go out at night and not have to expect to be shredded. Just ask the woman whose baby was literally dragged away and ripped to shreds by dingoes. ...people who don't know anything about vicious, feral dog creatures have joked about her for decades.
Wolves have vastly different sizes depending on where you are in the world and so on. Swedish wolves aren't much bigger than large dogs. Wolves also usually don't attack fully grown humans, they are generally cowards, and aren't nearly as dangerous as you describe them. They can be dangerous for children and definitely live-stock and dogs. But there are many examples of really big dogs taking down a pack of wolves by themselves. It can take about 15 wolves to take down an adult moose. They almost never attack fully grown healthy targets if there is weaker targets available, it's too risky and a single injury can be a death sentence for a predator. A male wolf weighs about just under 40 kg as an average (there are exceptional cases that weighs about 60+kgs but they are not the norm). One single wolf would never take down one adult male human who weighs 75-90kg.
@@b.benjamineriksson6030 I don't think I've said that in 1v1, wolves beat humans, but you can't deny they aren't a huge risk to settlements with kids and women and old people. Heck, just the threat of them attacking means that you need to send an armed escort every time grandma goes out to collect twigs. Kids can't play outside, women need to stay inside to not risk injury... Everyone else needs to band up, because while 1 wolf might not take you down, against 4+, you don't really stand a chance unless you are armed, armored and trained. Trust me, if there weren't street lights, your average small town would be raided by wolves and bears on a regular basis. Nighttime lights instill an instinctive fear in predator animals(which they can actually lose over time if humans don't regularly thin them or react aggressively to them approaching.) Gone would be the days of stumbling home drunk and alone after a night of partying. Just read up on the news of how much ruckus it causes when a single bear or a wild boar casually strolls through a neighborhood. If we couldn't terrify a dozen wolves from staying the hell away from our perimeters, real estate on the rims would practically be free. Also, dingoes weigh an average of about 10-15kg, but because they attack groups of up to like 3 people while there's a dozen of them and they are vicious and whatever on them isn't bone, is muscle, they do screw up an inordinate amount of vacations, at least compared to their tiny weight. ...they also lure pet dogs away from owners to rip them apart and eat them. Could you demolish a dingo? Yes. With a swift kick to the snout. Two? Maybe. Three? Your odds are falling dude, just hope there isn't a fourth... My grandmother had a 6kg dog who pretty much beat the crap out of 13 year old, 50kg me, because the little bastard jumped up to your face and bit it with the speed and precision of an owl. Grown people were scared of him. He was a puli mutt, if you are curious. ...anyway, just don't tell me you are the kind of guy who thinks he can wrestle an alligator, beat a kangaroo in a kickboxing match and have a lick of a chance against a chimpanzee. No human who isn't armed with at least torsion tech(crossbows) has any hope of surviving a cage match with most animals half their size. I've been punching walls since I was a little kid to increase my..."fisting power."(English is my second language) While I am confident I could beat around 95% of people, even with a broken foot, I have no doubts whatsoever that armed with my fists only and wearing nothing but a t shirt and dungarees, I would flatline against most predatory animals half my weight, especially the ones who attack in packs. Give me a baseball bat and a shillelagh and my odds will increase dramatically, but...again, do I really need to spend the rest of my life trying to perfect pronouncing shillelagh just because we can't deal with some dog creatures?! Anyway, while they aren't an existential threat to the whole settlement, it does put a dent into your future plans when you need to bury a baker's dozen tiny empty coffins a year because Fido's cousin's gang ate even their clothes. TLDR: wolves terrify me and they should terrify you as well. If they don't, then I can only pray you live very very far away from nature in general. Nature be crazy, yo'.
Showing Gandalf’s true strength and power would have required an explanation as to why he was reluctant to use it…..and the whole “equality” of the wizards and Sauron and why they were sent to begin with (which would be information overload for most movie goers causing a loss of interest) which was a good call for the sake of time constraints for telling the story🤔…..these movies are great advertising for book readers who never read the books, sparking interest and rewarding them with more details in this epic story👍🏼 and this YT series furthers this curiosity 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Gandalf most powerful moment is by far is defeating the Balrog even when we didn't get to see much of the fight. Also Gandalf is the only one that defeated a real maiar Balrog. Other balrogs that got defeated in first age by elves (like Glorfindel) wasn't considered a maiar and Tolkien then buffed them to be maiar and reduced them to only 7 balrogs maximum instead of thousands and wanted to change the stories about the balrogs in the first age
I remember that worg scene but thought it was in the hobbit when they were in the trees. When I re-read the hobbit I couldn't work out why I thought Gandalf shot fire at the words. Now I know!
3:00 I've always wondered how Gollum implausibly passed through the Moria door _after_ it was destroyed, _and_ the bridge where Gandalf faced the Balrog, _again_ after it was destroyed. Both impossible feats. We know he couldn't have passed before they were destroyed, since he would have been seen by the team.. I do not recall if the books explain this, but the movie simply hand waved it. The only "explanation" I can think of is that Gollum is serving as a shadow character of Frodo (a kind of evil/weak mirror). Which was hinted when the One Ring was destroyed.
@@NikolaosSkordilis There could possibly be areas where there are fissures that Gollum could have used to 'sneak' in. After his capture and questioning by Aragorn and Gandalf, Gollum was given to the wood elves as a prisoner. When he escaped he crept through 'half open windows' to find cradles, was the description given in the books.
Gollum entered Moria from the East, not West, but he was near the West gate when the Fellowship entered and started following them from there. During the orc attack, he must have stayed hidden, and once they escaped, done the logical thing and head towards the exit by a different route, so he could have passed the bridge before it was destroyed. Also, there must have been a way to bypass the bridge, or else Orcs wouldn't have been able to pursue the Fellowship to Lórien, so it is another option where Gollum could have gone.
I think the warg scene was omitted for the simple reason of runtime. Having both the wargs and the watcher would mean they'd have to be very short, so they opted to choose one of them to do it better justice. If they removed the watcher, they'd have to have an alternative explanation why they cannot escape Moria. Plus, this left the surprise introduction of wargs for the raid in the second movie, although there could be an argument that having the monster present earlier as well grounds the world a bit better, as it seems more alive, like the "evolution" and usage of trolls throughout the movies, or with the warg of Gothmog in the third movie, for that matter.
There is no doubt that Jackson level down Gandalf's power through the film series to set up confrontations later. The attack of the Wargs where Gandalf increases in size--giant size--is incredible and probably a feat to witness. But showing that would confuse people later when Gandalf confronts the Balrog as it begs the question, why didn't Gandalf grow in size to match the Balrog? Or the Witch King? Once you go there with a giant-size Gandalf you make him so powerful that there's no tension with the villains. There is a brief moment in the Shire with Bilbo where Gandalf does seem to grow in size and power where he tells Bilbo he is not trying to rob him but help him. But that's all we get.
If I had never read the Lord of the Rings I would have enjoyed the three movies but since the LOTR book is an epic work the movies seem like trailers of the book. The movies are such a rushed version of the book or books. The changes of the personalities and motivations of the characters really rub me the wrong way. Jackson had to make conflict everywhere. Jackson said that Tolkien’s characters were “too good.” I believe that there were more than enough villains in the book but that is not what Jackson’s problem was with the heroes. He believed that the heroes needed to be flawed. They made Frodo into a real jerk when he was actually chosen to carry the ring because he had the kindest personality that would resist the ring up until the end. Aragorn was not ashamed of his family. He was anxious to fight for the people of Middle Earth. It is nonsense to think that Aragorn did not want to be king. Being king of both realms was the only way that he could get to marry the elf of his dreams! But if you need conflict just call on Jackson. He turned an epic story into a monster movie.
One of the few LOtR channels that takes people with A.D.D. into account. I love all the channels but some delve so deeply into the fabrics of the story, limited brains like mine get lost. This channel moves at the perfect speed!
After Pippin drops the stone nothing happens except Gandalf telling him off, they then travel to the large hall of pillars where Gimli loudly sings a dwarf song, they then sleep (not their first night) and its the next day with light coming down shafts that they notice the side room where Balin's tomb is. Everyone forgets Gimli's loud singing being a probable cause for the ensuing fight.
Honestly it makes sense that Gandalf doesn't show his powers earlier in the movie to give more effect to his sacrifice and his power shown through it later. Not that I agree but I can understand why they did it.
This was well done, thanks. None of the changes were good. Especially changing which character said what, if Tolkien wanted Frodo to give Gandalf the hint to the riddle he bloody would have written it that way.
Maybe the reason for not including those wargs was so it would be more epic to see him use magic when fighting the Balrog. Too much magic dulls it down somewhat.
If they left it in, people who arent familiar with the background story and the Silmarillion wouldnt understand why gandalf always held back around the free peoples of middle earth. But not so when they were not around. He was not permitted by the valar to use his full strength as Miar upon entering middle earth, but only to encourage the free peoples to fight against Sauron, for fear another Dark Lord would come to rise. Also the lake was at the east entrance IIRC. The one Druin the Deathless saw the crown of stars in anyway. Gimli stops to look in it while being perused by orcs out the east entrance.. Tolkien is never explicitly clear how the bog got to the west gate, nor how the watcher got there, nor where it came from. It's left entirely to speculation.
Jackson wanted the original theatrical release of the films to focus on Frodo. So they needed an excuse as to why everything started happening to Frodo, unlike in the books. Hence the conversation outside Moria. Once the extended releases came out, it was more closely related to the books.
We could say here that Tolkien made a mistake in the Doors of Moria that the movie just copied. The inscription on the doors could not possibly read "Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" as "Moria" is a name that was given to Khazad-Dum many years after these doors were made. Moria is an evil name, meaning Black Pit and should not be written on the doors.
The same thing occured to me! But I assumed that 'Moria' is used in Westron to replace Khazad-dum and Dwarvish is just ignored. The same way we never say 'Roma' or 'Afinai' and haven't for over a thousad years.
@@cerberus6654 The elvish name of Khazad-dum was Dwarrowdelf (Gandalf is using that name in the movie when risking for more light and they all admire the greatness of the halls of Durin before seeing the tomb of Balin). Moria was the name this place took after the gates were closed and it showed the evil that lied there
@@georgep7373 Sorry, the Sindarin elvish name was originally Gwaith-i-Mirdain, or 'the black chasm'. 'Dwarrowdelf' is used in the Common Speech or Westron. 'Moria', was used by the elves before the dwarves were driven out but then it became commonly used by all, as it was indeed by then a 'black pit'. Elves can be such hypocrites. Dwarves lived underground in vast palaces and the elves thought that it was unpleasant way to live, yet when they themselves chose to live underground then, of course, that was just fine.
I love the movies, but not nearly as much as I love the books. In some ways, Jackson made a mockery of Tolkien's work to satisfy movie goers instead of the people that made "The Lord of the Rings" so popular in the first place: book readers.
It's very possible that Gollum could have followed the company through at least a part of Caradharas, because his lust for the ring and malice made him extremely hardy, as evidenced in his pursuit of Frodo in Mordor itself, and he had even scarcer food and water than the 2 hobbits, and was practically a living skeleton with skin.
Next week we get to the first change that I seriously disapprove of. Every difference up to here has been at least basically okay, and often a positively good idea.
@@factorfantasyweekly They beat the troll and all the orcs that initially find them, instead of only killing enough of them to mess around with morale before retreating retreating. Moria benefitted from a claustrophobic, oppressive, no-win atmosphere, which this small victory broke. And it's shortly followed by the second and third changes I didn't like, where (2) they're rescued from certain doom by the balrog, and (3) wasting our time with the vapid collapsing-stairway action sequence.
Another note if I remember correctly is that Gandalf knew his massive fire spell against the wargs was a giant magical beacon that Sarumon would pick up on and Moria was a way for them to slip under the radar again.
I first heard of the LoTR from my older brother. We were watching the animated Return of the King on TV and he was explaining it to me. He lent his books to me to read (The Hobbit first of course). I even had a dream where after Frodo left the Shire, I was searching for him😄
The warg scence was removed because Gandalf is about to show off by fighting a fire shadow demon, so he doesn't need a lesser badass moment. Not to mention the scene doesn't really add anything to the characters.
43 hours is 4 days of traveling time if you walk 11 hours a day there is no timeline alteration 😊
Місяць тому
I think Peter Jackson cut the Gandalf scene because it might be somewhat confusing for people who hadn't read the books. In the context of the movie, seeing Gandalf exhibit such power might make them question why he doesn't handle other threats in a similar manner.
This makes sense. The fellowship relied on stealth and Gandalf showing his power basically lights up a giant magical beacon for Saruman or Sauron to detect thus giving away their location.
He couldn't show Gandalf using his true power because then he would have to explain that Gandalf is a Maia. And that explain is covered in silmarillion, which he didn't have rights to.
Thank you for doing these! Im reading the books for the first time and Ive seen the movies more times than I care to admit lol. Im noticing differences but these are coming out almost as Im getting to or through the sections
Well I can think of three main reasons why thing were cut. 1. Pacing: while some scene work grate for books it can throw off the rhythm of a move or over extended a lul. Other times this can be redundant. Or take away the impact of a more important scene. 2. Time: time in both production but also run time. Shit time and production time is limited, with TLOR even more so do to making all the movies back to back. So there was a lot of things they didn't have time to finish. Even if they did adding it could have over extended the run time of the movie(s). 3. Money: movies are expensive, let alone making 3 back to back! While Cgi has gotten cheaper. Actors time is money and CHI isn't cheap or wasn't cheap in comparison back then. So a all cool looking scene would cost a hell of Alot and movie have a set budget that for the most part they can not go over without approval even then there's a cap. While I said 3 there obviously is at least one more reason.(not counting poor screen writing of course ) 4, a combination of one or all of thee above: Which I would hope doesn't need to be expanded on. I'm not knock the video in any way but wanted to add some insight to something he brought up
I don't think the watcher destroyed the door in the book, I think it just slammed it shut. Gollum was trapped inside Moria and started following them after they went inside. He entered through the east gate but when he reached the west gate where the door is he couldn't figure out how to get out. I think this tidbit is contained in the appendices.
Thanks! Have an ale on me down at the Prancing Pony. It comes in pints, you know. As a fan of both the books and movies, I'm really glad you're doing this!
You’ve just made my day! 🙏🏼 I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the series so far. I’ve also enjoyed all your comments! I look forward to seeing what you think of the future episodes each week. 👀
We all know that they have to change some things when going from book to film. The one thing that I was very disappointed with was the face to face between Gandalf and the which king . Why Jackson let the Nazgul better Gandalf just didn't make sense. I was very disappointed.
Screenwriters, directors and producers for some reason always think they can do better than the original authors of the book(s) the movie(s) are based upon. While the Jackson movies are quite impressive, had he been loyal to Tolkien's works, the movies would have been significantly better (although "The Hobbit" movies versions would have been but 1, possibly 2, movies).
Well, it's not Merry who solves the riddle but Gandalf. Gandalf gives credit to Merry for asking about the underlying meaning of "Speak Friend and Enter". Neither Merry nor Gandalf know the answer then. Only after long and careful thinking does Gandalf find the answer himself. And I think it's important to point out, because I dislike Peter Jackson's choice to constantly discredit Gandalf. Gandalf is bad ass throughout the book, but in the movie he is quite lost and helpless on several occasions. I don't know why he makes that choice. Maybe to give more credence to Frodo. Anyway: It is Gandalf who solves the riddle.
Read along with me! 📖 Claim Andy Serkis’ narration of “The Fellowship of the Ring” on Audible *for FREE:* www.audibletrial.com/factorfantasyfellowship 👈 Every free trial supports the channel!
Well I love Peter Jackson's movie and it came very close to the original let's be honest this wasn't tokens Lord of the rings this was Peter Jackson's interpretation of tolkien's Lord of the rings... And he really went overboard with The Hobbit can't even call at the Hobbit You might as well say loosely inspired by the Hobbit.
The fall of Moria would be noticeable by all places nearby because they would have traded and have many coming and going.
What's so great about the book, is that Tolkien spends a few paragraphs to tell us about what happened to Bill the Pony. He was so fond of horses, he had to make sure we understand that Bill was going to be alright.
Bill the Pony is a legend 🙏🏼
I think that is another WW1 moment that affected Tolkien severely. Horses were still used during WW1 and many died.
While writing the book, I would assume he wanted to avoid needless horse deaths.
Just my assumption though
I always thought it was because so many ponies die in the hobbit (I think 2 or three sets of 15-20) that his editors made him explain that both Bill the pony, and all the horses they lose in Bree, have a happily ever after. I like your explanation though
He's really telling us more about Sam than about Bill.
I think all the comments here so far are legitimately correct and strongly agree about WW1's influence on tolkien
I love how in the book Gandalf puts a blessing (spell?) of warding(?) on Bill saying (I looked this up because my brain is not THAT good 😉) "You are a wise beast, and have learned much in Rivendell. Make your ways to places where you can find grass, and so come in time to Elrond's house, or wherever you wish to go.” It's very touching and demonstrates Gandalf's softer side. ☺
I think Tolkien himself deprived us of two chances to see Gandalf's full power.
The first was the depiction of the fight between Gandalf the Grey and the 5 Nazgul atop Weathertop. It's seen in the distance by Strider and Hobbits as lighting and Gandalf briefly describes it but to have a detailed depiction and/or scene adaptation would have been epic.
The second is when Gandalf the White stops the Witchking from entering Minas Tirith. The Witchking issues his challenge and Gandalf rebukes him, then Rohan arrives and the Witchking departs without a fight...
Now, I must mention how PJ completely insulted Gandalf by implying that the Witchking could break his staff. There's no way a leveled up Witchking could've lasted long against Gandalf the White, especially after we know Gandalf the Grey already fought the Witchking and 4 other Nazgul to a draw on, the before mentioned, Weathertop.
Its kind of funny in the books later on when Gandalf keeps preparing himself for the showdown only to be told that the Witch King died because some chick stabbed it in the face.
I know it was changed in the movies probably just to hype up the Witch King (which I think it's good) but technically the fact he broke his staff doesn't mean he's stronger or that gandalf is weak as it was also shown in the movies Gandalf beat the Balrog only using his sword.
Also, Peter Jackson and even Dir Ian McKellen mentioned that they hated fact that Gandalf the White has no flaws. He’s perfect. That’s not good in a movie that needs to create arcs and so on.
But I agree, it’s makes no sense for that scene with the Witch King.
The Witch King who attacked Minas Tirith, as Tolkien writes in his letters, was much more powerful than when he was in Rivendell. As they say in the book, in fact, the success or failure of the Nazgul depends on Sauron and how much power he grants them and how much power he allows them to use. However, it is true that the scene of the witch king shattering Gandalf's staff is inappropriate.
I think the Witch-King should last for a decent fight, when empowered to the limits - he would still lose though, and he'd not be powerful enough to break Gandalf's staff.
The reason for me thinking that, is the rules of the Istari, particularly the whole "forbidden to match the Dark Lord's power with power". He'd be limited. Not limited enough to lose, but probably limited enough to have to work a little to beat a proficient sorcerer-wraith supplied with the power of Sauron himself.
This series is amazing, I just showed my son the movies and started reading the books again myself. I find it useful to note the differences between the text and the movies.
He cried at the end of the return of the king and told him that he needed to try and start his journey with the hobbit. Very proud of the young Tolkienien I'm raising.
Aw that’s amazing! Good on you 👏🏼
@@Mazz3D To me, the books are the best books ever, and the movies are the best movies ever, so knowing the differences between them is more to make sure that you understand and appreciate each. So you have excellent taste with your kid.
The wargs arriving at this point in the book make me laugh. I don't think Tolkien intended it as a comedic moment, but it always gives me a chuckle.
Boromir: I absolutely refuse to go into Moria.
Wargs: Aawooooo!!!
Boromir: How far to Moria?!
There is a humour to it, but It's also probably one of the things that made Boromir such a great commander in the field, he did not let his pride stand in the way of instantly changing his mind if the situation on the battlefield took a sudden change, if what formerly seemed a poor option to him out of those available is now the best tactical option in the new circumstances, he will change his mind and his plans without hesitation.
@@pettytyrant2720 Boromir is a great character and a true leader. He would have made for a great Steward, perhaps even better than Faramir in some respects, had it not been for the Ring.
@alexandresobreiramartins9461 and that's where the tragedy is.
Glóin didn't go to Rivendell to ask about the Dwarves lost in Moria. He went to Rivendell to warn Bilbo that Sauron was looking for him, and to find out what they should do about Sauron's veiled threats to Erebor.
Although they did go to Rivendell to bring tidings of Sauron’s messenger, the *council* they were seeking was in regard to Balin’s company.
They didn’t need advice on what to do about Sauron’s messenger. Obviously, they weren’t going to accept any sort of treaty or partnership. But they did need advice on what they should do about their lost company of dwarves in Moria.
“It is largely on account of Balin that I have come. To ask the advice of those that dwell in Rivendell.” - Gloin to Frodo at the feast the night before the council.
@@factorfantasyweekly You are forgetting that Gloin said if Frodo didn't know why he was in Rivendell, then we will not speak of it. Also, during the actual council meeting Gloin says "And so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo..." So, I'm going to agree with SuStel, mainly because he beat me to it.
The point is that the dwarves came for multiple reasons. Warning bilbo is a part of that, but isn’t so much for advice. The advice they were seeking was for Balin’s lost company. My point is that making a factual statement like “Gloin didn’t go to Rivendell to ask about the Dwarves lost in Moria.” is just incorrect. Both things can be right. As stated, they came for multiple reasons.
As for what Gloin said to Frodo, I am not forgetting. He said he wouldn’t speak of things before Frodo asked specifically about Balin. Once Frodo specifically asked about Balin, *then* Gloin opened up and said that is largely why they came.
All-in-all, I’m not disagreeing about them coming to warn Bilbo. 😂 That’s a fact. I’m saying they *also* came to seek advice about Balin and Moria.
He went for those reasons but he also went to find news of Balin as they had heard nothing for ages from Balin
Here's something that most people don't understand about the book.
"Speak friend and enter" IS NOT A RIDDLE. It's a translation error on Gandalf's part.
The Sindarin word "pedo" can mean either "speak" or "say." Gandalf chose the wrong interpretation when he's translating.
Gandalf credits Merry not because Merry figured out any riddle, but because he simply called attention to the instruction by asking what "Speak friend and enter" is supposed to mean. Gandalf laughs at himself because he realizes he simply mistranslated the instructions.
FWIW, 'to speak' is recorded by the OED with a transitive meaning dating back (surprise surprise) to Old English. Apart from the Sindarin conflating, the thing works in English too - in fact Gandalf says (quoting from memory here, so forgive me if I'm not precise) that the inscription should have been "speak 'friend' and enter".
Tolkien, being a linguist, surely was familiar with silly things happening from mistranslations!
@@BrettWMcCoy Exactly. This sort of language- based humor is right up his alley.
Gandalf himself says it's just a simple instruction, too simple "for a loremaster in these trouble times. Those were happier days", when you could just literally leave the key hanging from the front door and it was allright.
The correct translation is of course... Speak "Friend" and enter. In other words say the elvish word for friend.
Another important moment regarding Bill that wasn't in the movie -- Gandalf places a blessing of protection on Bill which, while fairly minor, is somewhat important later on.
Yes, I love that part of the book! So sweet and also just goes deeper into the mystical element of middle earth.
And doesn't Bill make it back to Rivendale?
@@CountryLifestyle2023 He makes it back to BREE!
@@BrettWMcCoy damn, even more impressive!
10:22 We must have two different versions of the book, because in my copy Merry has no part in solving the riddle of the door; Gandalf figures that out entirely on his own: "With a suddenness that startled them all the wizard sprang to his feet. He was laughing! 'I have it!' he cried. 'Of course, of course! Absurdly simple, like most riddles when you see the answer.'"
Gandalf refers to Merry's question earlier : "What does it mean by 'speak, friend, and enter'?"
@@nigeldepledge3790 Merry asks that question in both the book and the film. The claim made in the video is that "Another line shift is that in the movie they have Frodo be the one to recognize the simplicity of the riddle and solve it; in the book it is actually Merry who realizes this and Gandalf credits him with helping open the door." Book Merry doesn't "realize" anything; his only contribution is the query, "What does it mean by 'speak, friend, and enter'?", while film Merry asks, "What do you suppose that means?" Afterward, book Gandalf says Merry had been "on the right track", but neither book Merry nor film Merry solves the riddle, or even recognizes that it is a riddle. If there's a shift, it is from book Gandalf's realizing the nature of the riddle and solving it on his own to Frodo's having this insight. Merry's part is the same.
@@TheAntibozo - well, yeah. I was giving the video creator quite a bit of leeway to interpret Gandalf's comment.
I quite appreciate your opening comments. Understanding the differences has merits, but either way you’re looking at the best books ever and the best movies ever. They are both fully worth someone’s time, and I come to channels like this because of how much I love both
The worst part of the whole film and the worst change of all was when they changed the encounter with the Witch-King to have him break Gandalf’s Staff.
In the book, Gandalf exposes his power and the Witch-King flees.
It was an absolute travesty to the film and an insult to Gandalf to imply the Witchking could break Gandalf's staff. A strengthened Witchking still doesn't match up with Gandalf the White. But the Witchking doesn't flee directly from Gandalf's challege at the gate, he enters the gate and all flee save one, Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Gandalf issues his challenge stopping the Witchking's entry and then the crow calls and the horns of Rohan sound off. The Witchking then turns and exits, depriving us of the ultimate showdown...
@@philt2170 it wouldn't really be an ultimate showdown then, would it?
Like all the changes made for the films, it was done for filmic reasons. It wasn't a travesty. They needed the situation to feel hopeless 'even Gandalf is about to fail' to really up the ante
Its one of the scenes which wasn't in the movie version for good, since Gandalf getting owned by the Witch King makes absolutely no sense plot wise
The Witch King didn't flee. He stared down Gandalf but left to deal with Rohan, when the horns of Rohan sounded.
@@gerardmonsen1267 That's exactly right. Saying "The Witch King flees" is completely incorrect.
Here is a quote that accurately reflects what I believed about the Witch-King:
"His power fluctuated greatly through his life as a wraith, as his strength was bound up with Sauron's own; the more powerful Sauron became, the more powerful the Nazgûl were."
When he confronted Gandalf and broke is staff, that was not a feat he could do any old day. He said, "This is my hour."
Video Update: As many people in the comments have rightly pointed out, I don’t think Gandalf knew exactly what “Durin’s Bane” was before entering Moria. Although he would have been familiar with the lore of a Balrog, he probably didn’t guess that a Balrog was Durin’s Bane.
Thanks for your comments! 🙏🏼😊
The whole journey though Moria is one of my favorite parts in the book, its simply strange how you get a sense of that something is wrong while reading it, especially in the part of the well that when Pippin hears the tapping back on the well he wishes to have something to at least cover the well, and the whole nameless things that are given a little brief mention after we see Gandalf recount the fight and pursuit of the Balrog
Totally agree. I love this part of the book! The sense of mystery and dread evoked by Moria is really something else!
Cthulhu
Aragorn's comment that he too once entered Moria is a throwback to one of Tolkien's many early drafts for the character. Aragorn was originally going to be called Trotter and have artificial legs, having been tortured in Moria by a Nazgul. Thankfully that storyline was abandoned and Trotter became Strider.
That would have been insane 😂💀
Trotter was a hobbit with wooden feet, I didn't know it happened in Moria.
Artificial legs wtf
At least he didn’t own a three wheeler Robin Reliant…
@@101Waylandersounds like a version of Bored of the Rings.
I’ve been reading the Fellowship and I just finished this chapter so I’m loving this comparison between them
Their time in Moria is very different in the books! I understand it for time restrictive purposes. But it’s cool to take a look at everything missed from the time in the pass of Caradhras to when they leave the mines. Next week I cover the Balrog. 👀
It's so fascinating how/what the changed for the movie to make it work. So many seem to not understand that a direct one-to-one translation, even truncated (which in and of itself strays into the realm of rewriting), would never work for the visual medium. At least not if it is meant to appeal to most people.
When it comes to the clash with the wargs, it’s partly a matter of running time and partly the production cost and practicality of filming the scene. In addition, during the BTS commentary, Peter Jackson noted that the film story arc mostly emphasizes the journey of Frodo to destroy the ring, and a lot of stuff that might’ve looked cool didn’t serve that story arc.
Even Christopher Lee, a HUGE fan, recognized how impractical it would have been to do a “perfect” page-screen translation , saying, that it “could go on and on and on”.
The problem is some of those changes went WAY longer than the original book scenes would have. Gandalf against the Balrog at the door would not have been as long as all the jumping over falling stairs malarkey. The balrog moving around the mines and thus having them collapse every time he did so was nonsense. It made no sense.
Having all the spider-orcs, spider orcs, does whatever a spider orc does.. climbing over the mines and completely surrounding the fellowship and then just running away also made NO sense. It was terribly poor direction. The orcs worked for the Balrog.
Having Gandalf put a shutting spell upon the door and having “something” dark and dangerous break it and throw Gandalf back down the stairs, so shaken they would have to go on without light (bar their glowing swords) would have been much more intensifying AND made more actual sense. Jackson broke the verisimilitude by making these Hollywoodified blunders.
I dislike all the changes to Gimli in the films, but the ones around his expectations of finding a happy Balin and Company ruling Moria really baffles me. I don't see what purpose it serves or why they did it.
It makes Gimli look very stupid, and it gives viewers who are unaware of the history the impression the kingdom, if it has been lost, must have been recently lost, which contradicts not only other dialogue but the visual look of Moria itself.
Bakshi managed this in less than a minute by just having Gimli, when they discuss going to Moria, simply say, "My cousin Balin led a company of dwarves there many years ago, but we have heard nothing from them in all that time." I'm quoting from memory but the point is it's simple, not entirely accurate (they did hear from them for the first few years and news seemed good, then silence) but it does the job of explaining Moria is old and deserted for a long time, Balin led some dwarves there, no one knows what happened to them. All in a line of dialogue.
How or why PJ and co made such a mess of Gimli over so simple a thing is baffling to me. Maybe someone else might be able to explain PJ's thinking behind this change, as I cannot see a reason for it.
Yeah, I also disliked how Peter Jackson portrayed Gimil as an aloof useful idiot in the films. It was not necessary.
@@chrisloesch1870 Jackson did that because he had such a fanboi hard-on for Legolas. He pushed Gimli down to pull Legolas up.
@@KnugLidi jackson probably running around in every mmo with Legolásx name
Gandalf was actually very tender-hearted and empathetic toward Sam when he was explaining why Bill could not go into the mines.
Peter left out a LOT of Gandalf's most astounding feats of power, supposedly on the poor excuse that Peter dislikes "pyrotechnics", EXCEPT when Saruman, the Witch-King, or anyone else does them. Gandalf's battle with ALL the Nazgul on Amon Sul, where he caused even the Witch-king to be, in Tolkien's words, badly "shaken by the fires of Gandalf,", the contest of wizardry/sorcery/spiritual power between Gandalf and the Balrog for control of the doors to Balin's chamber etc..
In fact, Jackson missed an opportunity to show us Gandalf's fight with the Nazgul. Tolkien doesn't show us because his entire story is the narration of the four hobbits; thus, we see only what the hobbits see.
The movie, being a completely different medium, did not stick to the hobbits' narration. There was no need to give us only a second-hand account of Gandalf's battle on Weathertop.
@@nigeldepledge3790 Entirely agreed. But, worse than only giving us an after the fact account of Gandalf's battle, via narration, they ommitted the battle entirely. I THOUGHT we would get to see an alternate timeline version of it in the Desolation of Smaug 2nd Hobbit movie, since they transferred the Dol Guldur events into it, but NOPE again... Instead, we got a battle of five armies movie where the only present council member OMITTED from the battle with the 9, was Gandalf, even though in the novels he was the ONLY council member ( aside from the sadly neglected Glorfindel ) specifically stated to have had a direct battle with them. I still mostly love the movies, the 1st 2 Hobbit movies included, but the omission of that scene, like the omission of the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog for control of the chamber door, is an omission that I hated.
Absolutely loved the fight with the wolves and wargs in the book. Gandalf was portrayed great in the movies, but definitely would’ve been more OP if this scene and the fight with the Nazgûl had been included. The hobbit movies seem made him seem incompetent in his power at parts, especially in the extended edition with battle of the five armies. I seriously wonder what the filmmakers were thinking there.
Gandalfs power was not omnipotent. He is not an equal of Sauron in power. Sauron was originally an Ainur who was a near equal to Aule of the Ainur. Morgoth lured Sauron to his service and was Morgoths second in command. If you recall from the books (if you read them) Gandalf almost lost the battle of power with the Balrog twice. Once at the dwarven tombs rear doors atop the stairs and again atop the mountain when Gandalfs immortal essence was ripped from his mortal body, upon killing the Balrog, and sent back to the undying lands. By their powers the Valar then sent him back to his body again to complete his mission. (Though it is not explained in the books somehow a Balrog is granted the power to kill it's own slayer as it's final blow.) I can only draw this conclusion based on the stories in the book where no one that has slain a balrog has ever survived it. edit: also balrogs were Lesser Ainur called Maiar that Morgoth lured to his service and perverted their essence. Which is what Gandalf is a Lesser Ainur also known as Olorin. Olorin was a Maiar who's power was the casting of wisdom through dreams.
@sparkeyjames Sauron is a Maiar, though. He's not the same as Morgoth, who is an Ainur. Sauron served under him - and he was nowhere close to Aüle - who was also Ainur.
Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar, lesser beings.
The first thing I would've done before entering Moria would've been to blow up the dam holding the lake there. Let's see how long the kraken lives with only air to breathe.
If Jackson had shown Galdalf's power with the wargs, it would have been one more point of contention later when he doesn't just defeat all the baddies himself. You've heard how people have complained about the eagles. It's better that Gandalf is portrayed as a messenger, sent to inspire hope and cooperation rather than a great source of deus ex machina magic. This leaves the heroic actions in the hands of regular people, which was JRRT's entire point.
I understand Jackson's desire not to show Gandalf as the powerful being he was at this point in the story, but the part that stood out to me in the theatre is how he changed the decision to go through Moria (and encounter the Balrog) from Gandalf to Frodo. In the book Gandalf DOES know there are "things against which I have not yet been tested" and could die. But he chooses to go there anyway. That is the kind of sacrifice that turns him from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. Its one of my few gripes about their adaptation because it is a small thing that tells a lot about Gandalf's character/morals.
So my brother just got a call for a job, he'd been out of work for several months, and they wanted him to start in a couple of days. I laughed to listen to him explain how he just entered Moria and would need at least two weeks before he could start. I think they gave him the two weeks.
I can understand why they might want to cut the battle with the wargs for time, as it doesn't really serve a purpose for the overall narrative. However, it does serve the purpose of being the first time that the Fellowship threw down with anything as a group (not counting the hobbits and Aragorn at Weathertop, as that was not the full Felowship). This is their first time seeing each others' fighting style, showing their capabilities, and giving them all a sort of win after being kicked in the teeth by the snow storm.
It always seemed strange, even dumb for Gandalf to let Frodo decide. Frodo's never been outside of the Shire until now and would know nothing about the best route to take. He didn't know whether to go right or left when leaving Rivendell.
Yea and it’s not like the Ring gives you ultimate wisdom or something. 😂
I took it as Frodo was the leader of the Fellowship as he was the Ringbearer and everyone else is solely there to assist him “as long as they will” or whatever Elrond says. Everyone that had an opinion had already offered their advice and it was up to the Ringbearer to decide what he wanted to do.
The theme of providence runs deep in Tolkiens books. I think Gandalf was more or less flipping a coin and trusting that the answer would work out
Great wisdom would not have saved them, as Saruman fell despite having plenty of it.
Frodo was simple and innocent. While his instincts did often land the company in murky waters, they were always saved in the end by one or other miracle, in a "Jesus takes the wheel" sort of way, Frodo was very much like a child, having to be rescued by some higher force every time he made a mess of things. He was like the youngest child that always gets defended by the parent.
The same can be said about all the hobbits. That's why, when Frodo left, Galdalf was relieved to learn that Frodo still had Sam.. Not Aragorn, not Legolas, but Sam.
Gandalf the white was much more aware of the same. While Gandalf the Grey was often dismissive of Merry and Pippin, Gandalf the White predicted that the two hobbits would play a great role in the upcoming wars.
And again, this is where the movie differs from the book. In the book, Gandalf debated going into Moria with Aragorn. Gandalf wanted the fellowship to go under the mountains to get out of sight for a while. Aragorn, as this video noted, had been through Moria once, and didn't want to go back. Legolas didn't want to go, but Gimli did because he wanted to find out what happened to Balin. Boromir wanted to go through the Gap of Rohan, and stated he would not go through Moria unless the vote of the whole company was against him. He then asked what the Ring-bearer thought. Frodo replied that he didn't want to go through Moria, but he would if Gandalf advised it.
Well, after Pippin throws a stone into the well in the book, no drums are heard. What is heard is a hammer which, by all accounts, is sending some kind of Morse signal. Tolkien never specifies what it is, but it can be assumed that Pippin's stone has alerted orc guards or similar to something unusual happening in the mine's paths, and the signal may be what sets off the entire orc force to attack the party a day and a half later in the chamber of Mazarbul.
I don't know if you touched on this in the previous video covering Elrod's Concil at Rivendell, but one of the other big reasons why Gloin and Gimli were sent to Rivendell was because King Dain II Ironfoot had received a message from "envoys" saying their master was looking for "a little trinket", of a golden ring, and that if he gave them info on it as well as other agreements, they would return to him something like... three? of the original Seven Dwarf Rings (the other four purportedly being consumed in dragon fire). King Dain II told the envoys where they could stick it, to which they replied with thin-veiled threats, and left. The High King of the Dwarves knew that this was seriously suspicious, so he wanted this information to be sent to Elrond (and I think a similar thing happened to King Thranduil in Mirkwood).
I've often wondered about the omission of this marvellous 'scene' from the books (i.e. Gandalf torching the wolves). I feel like Jackson goes out of his way to nerf Gandalf. Even when he faces the Balrog, it's not readily obvious that the bridge breaking is GANDALF's doing. In the film, one could think that the bridge breaks simply from the immense weight of the Balrog - but this is NOT the case.
You quite clearly see him striking the bridge with his staff and it breaking although Gandalf *is* nerfed massively in the movies.
Gandalf's fight scene would have been cool to see, but I don't mind it having been left out.
What bothers me vastly more are the character changes Jackson made in the movies. Tolkien was extremely careful and deliberate with all of his characters and he was very intentional in telling you about the characters via their actions and insights. Merry and Pippin needed to show occasional wisdom so that they didn't just become annoying comic relief and so you understood why they chose to follow Frodo and Sam and why Elrond and the council allowed the them to join the fellowship. Boromir showing his frustration in such a petulant way was a key insight into his character (and a contrast to his brother, Faramir, who Jackson treated inexcusably). Gimli being aware of the likely fate of Balin and his people similarly helps to keep him from being the dumb comic relief character Jackson turned him into.
It seems like Jackson never really understood why Tolkien made the character trait and expression choices he did.
Honestly, even when the movies came out I wasn't really all that happy with them, and as the years have gone by I've grown more and more critical and displeased with the choices Jackson made, especially concerning his portrayal of the characters.
Actually, I think the translations resulted not from Jackson's ignorance, but the fact that he was taking into account the average ignorance of the audience. Think about the average person you know. Now, consider that half the people in the world are less intelligent than that person. Explains a lot, doesn't it?
Boromir is probably the only character who was changed for the better, most anyone got terribly downgraded.
I feel like some of these changes, particularly the shuffling of who does what among the party, really undermine the core concept of the fellowship from tolkein's perspective. It was, always, not about any one of them being the hero, or the heel.
One minor correction: you said after Pippin tosses the stone in the well, the Company hear drums. Actually they hear tapping like a signal in the deep.
Yeah. I think Gimli says it's a hammer tapping on stone or he's never heard one. Then everything goes quiet again and everyone is uneasy about what it could mean.
Yeah I'd say t was definitely a mistake made here, I'd trust to a dwarves ear to know the sound of a hammer on stone. And Gimli comes across as being very certain of his words. It is presumably goblin communications, but I always wondered if it were possibly some trapped dwarf, taken for fun by the goblins from Balin's company and forgotten about, deep down in the dark lower levels of the mines. I find the book version overall more chilling and haunting, we never get a sure answer of what was tapping with a hammer down there and I like that ambiguity Tolkien gives it, and prefer it does not provoke an immediate response, but just ups the tension as the chapter approaches Balin's tombs and its climax with the Balrog.
...tap-tom, tom-tap, tap-tap, tom...
...They sounded disquietingly like signals of some sort....
...'that was the sound of a hammer, or I have never heard one' said Gimli.
This is what I was scrolling down looking for. No drums, just the tap tap tapping, far away.
Further changes: the Watcher in the Water is never named in the movie, and it isn't revealed to be a "kraken"; we never see anything but its tentacles, and they only crawl on the ground, not swirl about in the air.
True! I believe it is only titled the “Watcher in the Water” due to what is written in the book of Mazarbul.
not sure if it´s the extended version only but you also see it´s head when it tries to eat frodo and then it literally climbs out of the water to smash the door and it can clearly be identified as "kraken-like" at least
@@daniel56149 My post was a little unclear. In the movie, it's never named. In the book, you don't see a "kraken," and the tentacles just wriggle on the ground. In the book, it's not even clear if the tentacles all belong to a single creature.
@@SuStel oh, i see now!
interesting, i`ve seen the movie before i read the books, so maybe i just assumed in my head that it´s a kraken since i saw one in the movie.
would be interesting to know Jacksons reasoning behind showing the whole thing
@@daniel56149 Oh, Peter Jackson is fairly predictable. "Bigger! More! Cut off his head! Make it visceral!"
Tolkien wrote the Watcher in the Water to be a nervous buildup leading to a frightened retreat. Jackson directed the Watcher to be a jump scare leading to a boss battle.
Major change: They didn't just find Legolas' arrows, he COLLECTED them. So his arrows were NOT INFINITE.
On a more serious note, my interpretation of the lack of warg bodies was always that there never were any wargs, and it was all an illusion. What does the book say about that?
I don’t think it was an illusion, but rather a testament to the abilities of Sauron’s hounds. In Tolkien’s writings, creatures were never just mindless animals. They had personalities, and could communicate with Sauron and orcs and the like. It’s only speculative, but the dark spirits inside the wargs are probably why they disappeared. They were either spirited away, or other wargs came and moved the bodies. Or the wargs never truly died but their beaten up bodies were reanimated and able to run away to regain strength.
It’s only speculative though as Tolkien never specified a direct answer.
You didn't mention that Gandalf puts a spell of protection on Bill to get him back to Rivendell safely. I loved that moment on the book.
I imagine Gandalf put a similar spell on each member of the Fellowship as well.
Such a good breakdown. I also love the movies, but I do think PJ went a lil heavy handed with blaming things on Pippin. If you watch the trilogy with Pippin in mind he essentially causes more trouble for the fellowship than Saruman and Sauron combined. It’s a lil too cruel to put that much blame on the poor guy. And make him that dimwitted. Made me feel bad for him.
Just watched the Return of the King again today and it is hilarious how much pain he causes everyone. 😂
"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria. Pedo Mellon a Minno. Im Narvi hain echant. Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin."
The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Say, friend, and enter. I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Eregion drew these signs.
It's been a long time since I read the books so I might be missing something, but I never understood why nobody read the inscription aloud in Sindarin.
The watcher slammed the door shut, uprooted trees and threw them across it. It did not destroy the door. Remember that shutting the door was enough to stop Sauron after he destroyed Eregion. He couldn’t destroy the door and neither could the watcher.
Gandolf's display of power in the movies was tremendously underpowered as to the abilities a master wizard should possess. Aside from the hand to hand fight with the Balrog that was cool.
Of all the changes P.J. makes this is the one I agree with, (probably the only one) instead of a small stone Pippin knocks in an entire suit of armor. This would be enough noise to warrant investigation. You say that Gandalf knew about the balrog (and wasn't worried) but, in the book, he seems surprised by it. So much so, that Legolas is the first to figure it out, I know you are keeping this for next week, but you did say Gandalf knew a balrog was in Moria. I don't know if you said anything about there not being any dead dwarves in the entrance of Moria in the book.
Yep! I mention there not being any dead dwarves, and they don’t find out the situation with the dwarves until they reach the tomb of Balin.
Also, in regard to the Balrog, I do cover that next week. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear in this video about this point… Gandalf knows what a Balrog is and the existence of one in Moria: Durin’s Bane. But in the book (as I discuss next week), he never gets a clear image of the being he faces at the door to Balin’s tomb. So he doesn’t jump to the conclusion of what it might be. It’s only when it approaches in full sight that Legolas recognizes it. But just because Legolas recognizes it first doesn’t mean Gandalf doesn’t know what it is. It’s only that Legolas saw it first and said something.
"That's the sound of a hammer, or I've never heard one."
I do not remember at any point where Gandalf claimed, or it was even intimated that he was aware of the Balrog. It struck me that he was nearly as surprised as the rest of the party when it finally appeared.
You're right. In the book, Gandalf puts a locking spell on a door, and is almost broken by the counter spell of something he feels on the other side, but not knowing what it is. Gandalf then comes tumbling down the stairs with the stairway collapsing behind him. Also, he heard the orcs say, "Gash," which is their word for fire, and he opines whether they mean the lower passages are on fire. Then on the bridge, when the Balrog actually appears, Gandalf says to himself, "Gash. Now I understand."
For me the blown up fight scene against the watcher is just too much. Seems like horror for horror's sake, a fight against a random monster, considering it is not connected to Sauron or Saruman. It is also not necessary for pacing as we've just had the Carradhras scene a minute ago.
And it's not even much of a horror, just an initial jumpscare, and then Frodo flying in the air became outright ridiculous. But subtle horror and Jackson really do not go well together, he totally destroyed the Dead Marshes by being so obvious and on-the-nose.
Peter Jackson said he downplayed the Fellowships main players true powers to create a sense of real hopelessness.
My biggest pet peeve was when the witch king broke Gandalf’s staff in the movie. The book scene was way more suspenseful in my opinion. Gandalf riding up with Shadowfax the only horse in middle earth that could withstand the evil.
PJ himself has said he doesn't like magic solving problems with a snap of the fingers. Hence the disappointing duel between Gandalf and Saruman.
With the adaptation from book to movie, Peter Jackson's team made a lot of interesting choices, some that you might even prefer from the book, to others that you mentally may consider as apocryphal. But with every adaptation, there are clues and consistencies that are telling as far as where the artists are placing their focus. For the Peter Jackson movies, the emphasis wasn't on Gandalf and his powers, even after he became Gandalf the White. For instance, there was a struggle in the movie between Saruman and Gandalf, both knocking each other around with a physical form of magic, at Isengard. We hear absolutely nothing about Gandalf's fight against the Ringwraiths at Weathertop. There are no great fireworks from Gandalf or Gandalf's staff at the fight of Minas Tirith: in fact, Gandalf's staff is broken, and he has to rely on a sword (a melee weapon), until he apparently has the time to find a new staff by the time of Aragorn's coronation. So, the entire Peter Jackson Trilogy is not about Gandalf's power. In fact, it could be argued that we see a 'courageous Gandalf,' or a more 'scholarly Gandalf' portrayal perhaps, with Peter Jackson's movies. Gandalf's best moments were his character scenes with the hobbits and his scenes with Aragorn, and his most powerful scene was in The Two Towers at Rohan with King Theoden's transformation. I really liked the scene in The Return of the King where Gandalf rides in on Shadowfax with the light showing on his staff, and the orcs are given pause when they realize they will have to contend with a powerful wizard. But we don't get the powerful, wiping out goblins in a single powerful flash Gandalf from the Hobbit, or any type of fireball from Gandalf. So the focus was more on character development and the actual apocalyptic feeling of struggle instead of what you might have interpreted or thought possible from the book. Perhaps there may be an interpretation of The Lord of the Rings in the future that may give more of an allowance towards Gandalf's actual powers, or give a more balanced view of the struggle vs practical ability.
From the movies Gandalf seemed to be little more than a talking book.
His powers seemed to be: make a lens flare, summon a horse and summon a moth.
Great video with a lot of respect for both the movies and the books. I love both.
I would love to see an animated LOTR show that adapts the books 1-1. No plot changes. Sure maybe some pacing etc but keep it as close to the books as they can. Would be great.
That would be so cool! I’ll start saving now for that project in 50 years. 👀
I agree. LotR would be a perfect animated show.
Only with high quality animation.
I just want to point out that the difference between a pond and a lake is depth, not surface area. A lake can be small but very deep and a pond can be very large but shallow...
The question is how did Gollum get into the mine? Did he manage to sneak in unnoticed while the watcher was destroying the gate? If he was following them how did he get in?
The Tale of Years states that in August of 3018, all trace of Gollum is lost and, it’s possible, that to flee from the elves he entered Moria (from the east) and passed through. However, when he eventually found his way to the West-gate he could not get out and was trapped.
@@troysnyder1140 Actually he should had been able to get out of the west gate if he wants to becuse Gandalf or Gimli said from the inside u can just push the door open but from the outside its impossible to get in unless u know the password!
Oh, he probably enjoyed Moria, and was willing to wait there a bit before heading off to the Shire...
In the Rankin/Bass animation, it shows Gandalf shooting lightning bolts from tree to tree to kill the Wargs
Could you imagine if Radagast was hanging out with the party as Bill the pony!?
I always felt like this was one of the more important scenes that got omitted. Not only does it show some of Gandalf's power, it also sends up a signal of Gandalf's power like a beacon flare to any being with the ability to perceive it. Most notably, he gains the attention of a great dark power in the mountain, that he fears and suspects is the Balrog. Now the Balrog knows they're coming, and knows one of the Maiar is with them.
You kind of gloss over the whole "wargs are four times the size of wolves" but in reality, wolves are massive. Way bigger than what you'd call a "big dog." They aren't just "wild german shepherds." Wolves are actually very terrifying.
There's a reason why wolves were considered to be the main competition of humanity up until very recently(late 19th century streetlights basically) and that's because a wolf can take down a human without issue, and worse than that, they are team players.
If you woke up in Middle Earth and your village of 200 armed men had to face down a pack of say, 4-5 wargs, you'd definitely have a very slim chance of having nightmares for the rest of your life.
The Fellowship had a grizzled war veteran, a ranger with royal blood, an immortal elf, a decked out dwarf elite soldier, four hobbits(who, according to the books have almost supernatural stealth abilities) and one of the few wizards in existence and they were very concerned about wargs.
Anyway, my point is that while watchers in waters and balrogs are incredibly terrifying, your average person was probably more concerned about running into a "pcp wolf on steroids" than first age monsters.
Our wolves are 4th of the size of wargs and one of our first things on our "to do list" when we "teched up" to firearms and street lamps was to wipe the wolves out from anywhere near where humans live.
It's pretty much the only reason you can go out at night and not have to expect to be shredded.
Just ask the woman whose baby was literally dragged away and ripped to shreds by dingoes.
...people who don't know anything about vicious, feral dog creatures have joked about her for decades.
Wolves have vastly different sizes depending on where you are in the world and so on. Swedish wolves aren't much bigger than large dogs. Wolves also usually don't attack fully grown humans, they are generally cowards, and aren't nearly as dangerous as you describe them. They can be dangerous for children and definitely live-stock and dogs. But there are many examples of really big dogs taking down a pack of wolves by themselves. It can take about 15 wolves to take down an adult moose. They almost never attack fully grown healthy targets if there is weaker targets available, it's too risky and a single injury can be a death sentence for a predator. A male wolf weighs about just under 40 kg as an average (there are exceptional cases that weighs about 60+kgs but they are not the norm). One single wolf would never take down one adult male human who weighs 75-90kg.
@@b.benjamineriksson6030 I don't think I've said that in 1v1, wolves beat humans, but you can't deny they aren't a huge risk to settlements with kids and women and old people.
Heck, just the threat of them attacking means that you need to send an armed escort every time grandma goes out to collect twigs.
Kids can't play outside, women need to stay inside to not risk injury...
Everyone else needs to band up, because while 1 wolf might not take you down, against 4+, you don't really stand a chance unless you are armed, armored and trained.
Trust me, if there weren't street lights, your average small town would be raided by wolves and bears on a regular basis.
Nighttime lights instill an instinctive fear in predator animals(which they can actually lose over time if humans don't regularly thin them or react aggressively to them approaching.)
Gone would be the days of stumbling home drunk and alone after a night of partying.
Just read up on the news of how much ruckus it causes when a single bear or a wild boar casually strolls through a neighborhood.
If we couldn't terrify a dozen wolves from staying the hell away from our perimeters, real estate on the rims would practically be free.
Also, dingoes weigh an average of about 10-15kg, but because they attack groups of up to like 3 people while there's a dozen of them and they are vicious and whatever on them isn't bone, is muscle, they do screw up an inordinate amount of vacations, at least compared to their tiny weight.
...they also lure pet dogs away from owners to rip them apart and eat them.
Could you demolish a dingo? Yes. With a swift kick to the snout. Two? Maybe. Three? Your odds are falling dude, just hope there isn't a fourth...
My grandmother had a 6kg dog who pretty much beat the crap out of 13 year old, 50kg me, because the little bastard jumped up to your face and bit it with the speed and precision of an owl. Grown people were scared of him.
He was a puli mutt, if you are curious.
...anyway, just don't tell me you are the kind of guy who thinks he can wrestle an alligator, beat a kangaroo in a kickboxing match and have a lick of a chance against a chimpanzee.
No human who isn't armed with at least torsion tech(crossbows) has any hope of surviving a cage match with most animals half their size.
I've been punching walls since I was a little kid to increase my..."fisting power."(English is my second language) While I am confident I could beat around 95% of people, even with a broken foot, I have no doubts whatsoever that armed with my fists only and wearing nothing but a t shirt and dungarees, I would flatline against most predatory animals half my weight, especially the ones who attack in packs.
Give me a baseball bat and a shillelagh and my odds will increase dramatically, but...again, do I really need to spend the rest of my life trying to perfect pronouncing shillelagh just because we can't deal with some dog creatures?!
Anyway, while they aren't an existential threat to the whole settlement, it does put a dent into your future plans when you need to bury a baker's dozen tiny empty coffins a year because Fido's cousin's gang ate even their clothes.
TLDR: wolves terrify me and they should terrify you as well. If they don't, then I can only pray you live very very far away from nature in general.
Nature be crazy, yo'.
Because of the quote from Gandalf. There is one theory that the Kraken in fact is one of the nameless things. That is however another episode
Showing Gandalf’s true strength and power would have required an explanation as to why he was reluctant to use it…..and the whole “equality” of the wizards and Sauron and why they were sent to begin with (which would be information overload for most movie goers causing a loss of interest) which was a good call for the sake of time constraints for telling the story🤔…..these movies are great advertising for book readers who never read the books, sparking interest and rewarding them with more details in this epic story👍🏼 and this YT series furthers this curiosity 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Gandalf most powerful moment is by far is defeating the Balrog even when we didn't get to see much of the fight. Also Gandalf is the only one that defeated a real maiar Balrog. Other balrogs that got defeated in first age by elves (like Glorfindel) wasn't considered a maiar and Tolkien then buffed them to be maiar and reduced them to only 7 balrogs maximum instead of thousands and wanted to change the stories about the balrogs in the first age
7:50 The high ground always wins
It's been so long since I read the Lord of the Rings. I still have the books in storage. I really should read them again.
I remember that worg scene but thought it was in the hobbit when they were in the trees. When I re-read the hobbit I couldn't work out why I thought Gandalf shot fire at the words. Now I know!
3:00 I've always wondered how Gollum implausibly passed through the Moria door _after_ it was destroyed, _and_ the bridge where Gandalf faced the Balrog, _again_ after it was destroyed. Both impossible feats.
We know he couldn't have passed before they were destroyed, since he would have been seen by the team.. I do not recall if the books explain this, but the movie simply hand waved it.
The only "explanation" I can think of is that Gollum is serving as a shadow character of Frodo (a kind of evil/weak mirror). Which was hinted when the One Ring was destroyed.
@@NikolaosSkordilis There could possibly be areas where there are fissures that Gollum could have used to 'sneak' in. After his capture and questioning by Aragorn and Gandalf, Gollum was given to the wood elves as a prisoner. When he escaped he crept through 'half open windows' to find cradles, was the description given in the books.
Gollum entered Moria from the East, not West, but he was near the West gate when the Fellowship entered and started following them from there. During the orc attack, he must have stayed hidden, and once they escaped, done the logical thing and head towards the exit by a different route, so he could have passed the bridge before it was destroyed. Also, there must have been a way to bypass the bridge, or else Orcs wouldn't have been able to pursue the Fellowship to Lórien, so it is another option where Gollum could have gone.
I think the warg scene was omitted for the simple reason of runtime. Having both the wargs and the watcher would mean they'd have to be very short, so they opted to choose one of them to do it better justice. If they removed the watcher, they'd have to have an alternative explanation why they cannot escape Moria. Plus, this left the surprise introduction of wargs for the raid in the second movie, although there could be an argument that having the monster present earlier as well grounds the world a bit better, as it seems more alive, like the "evolution" and usage of trolls throughout the movies, or with the warg of Gothmog in the third movie, for that matter.
There is no doubt that Jackson level down Gandalf's power through the film series to set up confrontations later. The attack of the Wargs where Gandalf increases in size--giant size--is incredible and probably a feat to witness. But showing that would confuse people later when Gandalf confronts the Balrog as it begs the question, why didn't Gandalf grow in size to match the Balrog? Or the Witch King? Once you go there with a giant-size Gandalf you make him so powerful that there's no tension with the villains. There is a brief moment in the Shire with Bilbo where Gandalf does seem to grow in size and power where he tells Bilbo he is not trying to rob him but help him. But that's all we get.
I always wondered why gimley didn't know how to open the door... since, you know, he's a dwarf
If I had never read the Lord of the Rings I would have enjoyed the three movies but since the LOTR book is an epic work the movies seem like trailers of the book. The movies are such a rushed version of the book or books.
The changes of the personalities and motivations of the characters really rub me the wrong way. Jackson had to make conflict everywhere. Jackson said that Tolkien’s characters were “too good.” I believe that there were more than enough villains in the book but that is not what Jackson’s problem was with the heroes. He believed that the heroes needed to be flawed. They made Frodo into a real jerk when he was actually chosen to carry the ring because he had the kindest personality that would resist the ring up until the end.
Aragorn was not ashamed of his family. He was anxious to fight for the people of Middle Earth. It is nonsense to think that Aragorn did not want to be king. Being king of both realms was the only way that he could get to marry the elf of his dreams! But if you need conflict just call on Jackson. He turned an epic story into a monster movie.
One of the few LOtR channels that takes people with A.D.D. into account. I love all the channels but some delve so deeply into the fabrics of the story, limited brains like mine get lost. This channel moves at the perfect speed!
After Pippin drops the stone nothing happens except Gandalf telling him off, they then travel to the large hall of pillars where Gimli loudly sings a dwarf song, they then sleep (not their first night) and its the next day with light coming down shafts that they notice the side room where Balin's tomb is. Everyone forgets Gimli's loud singing being a probable cause for the ensuing fight.
You missed the sound of a distant hammer on stone, that came shortly after Pippins stone went down the well.
@@Thurgosh_OG I still don't think Gimli's loud dwarf song should be ignored
Honestly it makes sense that Gandalf doesn't show his powers earlier in the movie to give more effect to his sacrifice and his power shown through it later. Not that I agree but I can understand why they did it.
What I find interesting is the fact that Bilbo's mercy for gollum, is what saved them all in the end.
This was well done, thanks. None of the changes were good. Especially changing which character said what, if Tolkien wanted Frodo to give Gandalf the hint to the riddle he bloody would have written it that way.
Maybe the reason for not including those wargs was so it would be more epic to see him use magic when fighting the Balrog. Too much magic dulls it down somewhat.
hey I real appreciate your taking us on the differences in books vs the movies. i am super dyslexic
Of course! Thanks for watching. 🙏🏼
Gandalf in the movies was never supposed to be OP as fuck. Basically : Less is more.
Random UA-cam suggestion that lead to a great video. Thanks for making this!
The scene where Gandalf fights wargs with fire from a tree is inserted in one of the Hobbit movies.
If they left it in, people who arent familiar with the background story and the Silmarillion wouldnt understand why gandalf always held back around the free peoples of middle earth. But not so when they were not around. He was not permitted by the valar to use his full strength as Miar upon entering middle earth, but only to encourage the free peoples to fight against Sauron, for fear another Dark Lord would come to rise. Also the lake was at the east entrance IIRC. The one Druin the Deathless saw the crown of stars in anyway. Gimli stops to look in it while being perused by orcs out the east entrance.. Tolkien is never explicitly clear how the bog got to the west gate, nor how the watcher got there, nor where it came from. It's left entirely to speculation.
Great lore on this channel and smart folks in the chat. Just Subscribed!
Welcome! Happy to have you 👏🏼
Jackson wanted the original theatrical release of the films to focus on Frodo. So they needed an excuse as to why everything started happening to Frodo, unlike in the books. Hence the conversation outside Moria. Once the extended releases came out, it was more closely related to the books.
We could say here that Tolkien made a mistake in the Doors of Moria that the movie just copied. The inscription on the doors could not possibly read "Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" as "Moria" is a name that was given to Khazad-Dum many years after these doors were made. Moria is an evil name, meaning Black Pit and should not be written on the doors.
The same thing occured to me! But I assumed that 'Moria' is used in Westron to replace Khazad-dum and Dwarvish is just ignored. The same way we never say 'Roma' or 'Afinai' and haven't for over a thousad years.
@@cerberus6654 The elvish name of Khazad-dum was Dwarrowdelf (Gandalf is using that name in the movie when risking for more light and they all admire the greatness of the halls of Durin before seeing the tomb of Balin). Moria was the name this place took after the gates were closed and it showed the evil that lied there
@@georgep7373 Sorry, the Sindarin elvish name was originally Gwaith-i-Mirdain, or 'the black chasm'. 'Dwarrowdelf' is used in the Common Speech or Westron. 'Moria', was used by the elves before the dwarves were driven out but then it became commonly used by all, as it was indeed by then a 'black pit'. Elves can be such hypocrites. Dwarves lived underground in vast palaces and the elves thought that it was unpleasant way to live, yet when they themselves chose to live underground then, of course, that was just fine.
I love the movies, but not nearly as much as I love the books. In some ways, Jackson made a mockery of Tolkien's work to satisfy movie goers instead of the people that made "The Lord of the Rings" so popular in the first place: book readers.
It's very possible that Gollum could have followed the company through at least a part of Caradharas, because his lust for the ring and malice made him extremely hardy, as evidenced in his pursuit of Frodo in Mordor itself, and he had even scarcer food and water than the 2 hobbits, and was practically a living skeleton with skin.
Next week we get to the first change that I seriously disapprove of. Every difference up to here has been at least basically okay, and often a positively good idea.
Which change is that? 👀
@@factorfantasyweekly They beat the troll and all the orcs that initially find them, instead of only killing enough of them to mess around with morale before retreating retreating. Moria benefitted from a claustrophobic, oppressive, no-win atmosphere, which this small victory broke. And it's shortly followed by the second and third changes I didn't like, where (2) they're rescued from certain doom by the balrog, and (3) wasting our time with the vapid collapsing-stairway action sequence.
Another note if I remember correctly is that Gandalf knew his massive fire spell against the wargs was a giant magical beacon that Sarumon would pick up on and Moria was a way for them to slip under the radar again.
He had already given himself away by lighting the fire in the storm on Caradhras.
I first heard of the LoTR from my older brother. We were watching the animated Return of the King on TV and he was explaining it to me. He lent his books to me to read (The Hobbit first of course). I even had a dream where after Frodo left the Shire, I was searching for him😄
😂😂 that’s great
The warg scence was removed because Gandalf is about to show off by fighting a fire shadow demon, so he doesn't need a lesser badass moment. Not to mention the scene doesn't really add anything to the characters.
43 hours is 4 days of traveling time if you walk 11 hours a day there is no timeline alteration 😊
I think Peter Jackson cut the Gandalf scene because it might be somewhat confusing for people who hadn't read the books. In the context of the movie, seeing Gandalf exhibit such power might make them question why he doesn't handle other threats in a similar manner.
This makes sense. The fellowship relied on stealth and Gandalf showing his power basically lights up a giant magical beacon for Saruman or Sauron to detect thus giving away their location.
I saw the video's subject line, then read the channel title, and then I had to laugh out loud.
He couldn't show Gandalf using his true power because then he would have to explain that Gandalf is a Maia. And that explain is covered in silmarillion, which he didn't have rights to.
Darn it Jackson
😂
Thank you for doing these! Im reading the books for the first time and Ive seen the movies more times than I care to admit lol. Im noticing differences but these are coming out almost as Im getting to or through the sections
Well I can think of three main reasons why thing were cut.
1. Pacing: while some scene work grate for books it can throw off the rhythm of a move or over extended a lul. Other times this can be redundant. Or take away the impact of a more important scene.
2. Time: time in both production but also run time. Shit time and production time is limited, with TLOR even more so do to making all the movies back to back. So there was a lot of things they didn't have time to finish. Even if they did adding it could have over extended the run time of the movie(s).
3. Money: movies are expensive, let alone making 3 back to back! While Cgi has gotten cheaper. Actors time is money and CHI isn't cheap or wasn't cheap in comparison back then. So a all cool looking scene would cost a hell of Alot and movie have a set budget that for the most part they can not go over without approval even then there's a cap.
While I said 3 there obviously is at least one more reason.(not counting poor screen writing of course )
4, a combination of one or all of thee above: Which I would hope doesn't need to be expanded on.
I'm not knock the video in any way but wanted to add some insight to something he brought up
U do a nice job of this,because both are great-- and u don't have to trash one to appreciate the other
I don't think the watcher destroyed the door in the book, I think it just slammed it shut. Gollum was trapped inside Moria and started following them after they went inside. He entered through the east gate but when he reached the west gate where the door is he couldn't figure out how to get out. I think this tidbit is contained in the appendices.
Thanks! Have an ale on me down at the Prancing Pony. It comes in pints, you know. As a fan of both the books and movies, I'm really glad you're doing this!
You’ve just made my day! 🙏🏼 I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the series so far. I’ve also enjoyed all your comments! I look forward to seeing what you think of the future episodes each week. 👀
@@factorfantasyweekly Finding your videos made my day! I'm looking forward to more of your interesting and entertaining videos!
We all know that they have to change some things when going from book to film. The one thing that I was very disappointed with was the face to face between Gandalf and the which king . Why Jackson let the Nazgul better Gandalf just didn't make sense. I was very disappointed.
Screenwriters, directors and producers for some reason always think they can do better than the original authors of the book(s) the movie(s) are based upon. While the Jackson movies are quite impressive, had he been loyal to Tolkien's works, the movies would have been significantly better (although "The Hobbit" movies versions would have been but 1, possibly 2, movies).
I can understand why they got rid of him, but I missed the entire character Tom Bombadil
Well, it's not Merry who solves the riddle but Gandalf. Gandalf gives credit to Merry for asking about the underlying meaning of "Speak Friend and Enter". Neither Merry nor Gandalf know the answer then. Only after long and careful thinking does Gandalf find the answer himself.
And I think it's important to point out, because I dislike Peter Jackson's choice to constantly discredit Gandalf. Gandalf is bad ass throughout the book, but in the movie he is quite lost and helpless on several occasions. I don't know why he makes that choice. Maybe to give more credence to Frodo.
Anyway: It is Gandalf who solves the riddle.