A Silly Battle in The Last Jedi and How to Fix It
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 лис 2018
- Spacedock breaks down some strange tactics in Star Wars: The Last Jedi and suggests some alternatives.
• Video
SUPPORT SPACEDOCK:
www.patreon.com/officialspace...
FACEBOOK: officialspac...
TWITTER: / spacedockhq
TWITCH: / spacedockhq
REDDIT: / officialspacedock
SPACEDOCK MERCHANDISE:
www.redbubble.com/people/space...
Do not contact regarding network proposals.
Battlezone II Music by Carey Chico
Sci-Tech Intro Features Animated Elements by SKIBBZ.
Spacedock does not hold ownership of the copyrighted materiel (Footage, Stills etc) taken from the various works of fiction covered in this series, and uses them within the boundaries of Fair Use for the purpose of Analysis, Discussion and Review. Produced by Daniel Orrett. Owner/Executive Producer at Spacedock. - Розваги
Ryan Johnson:We made the Bombers similar to the B-17 Flying Fortress!
Me: Last I checked, they could actually take a hit
People Knowledgeable of B-17's: You know that B-17's are terrible at attacking capital ships, right?
Ryan Johnson: ::covers ears with hands:: I can't hear toxic manbabies!
People Knowledgeable of WW2: That's why dive bombers and torpedo bombers are a thing for attacking warships, Ryan.
Ryan Johnson: ::covers ears with hands:: Historical accuracy about a war fought by racists? Racist manbabies!
TheMaleRei Yet another point! I can understand using them to bomb the space docks where they land or refuel, but not when it’s moving
@@wilsthelimit
It could have been so easy to even have a Midway like moment - TIE fighters pulled away to hit bomber group A...
There's jamming or interference...
Bomber group B come out of 'nowhere' to shatter three capital ships / carriers...
Rian Johnson, you wanted WW2 - that's an easy way to do it...
That Imperial battlegroup was only a scouting force to confirm the Rebel base position.
The rebels have to jump away as Imperial reinforcements arrive.
TheMaleRei Yep
I mean, they took plenty of hits. And better than a Y-wing ever has...
Poe: “We have to take this thing down! It’s a fleet killer!”
*Cannidy proceeds to shoot a barren rock rather than kill the fleet*
I think if, rather than the whole "yay we evacuated the whole base" they'd still had troops escaping from the ground, it would work better because there would be an actual loss when their base is hit.
All they needed to do to justify it was have an ion cannon in place on the base. They could even justify the star destroyers hanging back as waiting for the long range ship to clear said cannon so that they could push forward next. I mean, still dumb they were too far away to lend fighter support, but I have a low bar for TLJ improvements
@@byron2FZ it'd still be dumb to target the base though. The base was evacuating to the ship itself. Take out the ship and they'd have nowhere to run from the subsequent bombardment.
I suppose if the plan all along was to track them through hyperspace though it makes more sense to not worry about it. Still bad priority
@@michaelcross7665 yeah if you hit the first base you frighten them and can potentially track them to any other secret bastions they have.
@@michaelcross7665 remember that TFA was a copy of ANH
if the base on dqar have ion canon it would be literly looks like the base of hoth minus the snow
It's weird how they treat poe as the idiot in the movie when he did the most logical things in the situations he was in. He took out the ship according to the plan, then mutinied when the admiral was either incompetent or helping the first order. And yet he still gets shot in the face by a stun blast from leia's pistol.
Because logic is of the patriarchy and at least part of the movie was about men being problems that thought out rational solutions and women being the solution who issued orders that men better damn well obey.
Yes, I know that's a bit hyperbolic, but there was definitely a bit of a "men bad because they're logical" element of some sort.
Because it was a very badly written movie.
The only thing they needed to do to fix that is have 'or it could be a traitor' be a plot point introduced along with the whole 'tracking through hyperspace' thing. The reason they need unquestioning obedience to the plan? there could be a traitor. The reason no-one explains it in front of the bridge crew to a fighter pilot? There could be a traitor. And so on. It wraps everything up, but then we get their attempt to disable the tracker (the actual problem, but no-one will believe... Finn? he probably heard it as a rumour when he was still with the first order, but everyone thinks it's propaganda), which bones them worse than just keeping shtum.
Cause man dumb woman smart. Modern movies aren't about making good movies. It's about shoving "the message" down people throats.
@@notyou2353 You say it as a hyperbole but it’s important to understand that this film was developed at the height of the “me too” movement and when Trump was running the first time and being labeled as misogynistic. The entire reaction to all that was to believe all women and that clearly carried over into the premise of this movie. Believe women.
So basically what you're saying is if TLJ had better, more competent writing, it would have been better. Noted.
I think that's what everyone is saying. They wanted the film to work and truly, it's premise is good. But there were many missteps. Honestly, I could take TLJ and make it better with what's available and found in it.
@@FLJBeliever1776 At least we can all agree it's not remotely the worst film in the trilogy. Honestly it might be the best.
@@InchonDM it's definitely the worst
@@DerpaTure9503 okay fine, TLJ is tied with ROS for worst. They're both incredibly terrible. TFA is unoriginal and the characters are still bland, but at least if you turn your brain completely off you can have some fun with it. That puts it on par with attack of the clones
@@sdsdfdu4437 The entire 3 movies were one big political message. Wahmen knows best, wahmen power, SJW crap.
If only the battle was the only silly thing in that movie...
People in a movie making stupid decisions does not count as bad writing
People are allowed to change their plans dude
Ah, Leia Poppins...
The first order actors were horrible
Pollux Pavonis
"Silly" more of a ungodly insult to everything Star Wars.
It's...not really jumping on the "bandwagon" if you've genuinely come to reasonable conclusions.
It's only a bandwagon if the critique is disputable, TLJ can not defend any of this.
But the entire bandwagon is made of reasonable conclusions.
There are certainly reasonable critiques of the movie, but hardly enough to describe the movie as an assault on childhood and everything good and innocent in this world. For example I agree the Canto Bight section of the movie could have been structured in a more viewer-friendly format, but by the same token I struggle to see a critique of the film that can describe the film as an abomination. I feel most scenes in the movie have just as reasonable an explanation as any other Star Wars movie but I understand that lots of fans were upset because they expected different things in the movie (i.e. Luke facing down the whole First Order with a laser sword, or a mighty space battle, or Rey to be descended from someone famous...I guess stratch that one now).
@Cypher Well the Bight section was part of the character arc for Finn, Rose, and Poe, and it influenced large sections of the plot and it introduced interesting themes to the Star Wars franchise that have only been covered in the Clone Wars and Rebels series before.I do wish they had cut out the part of them being put into prison and was a bit more to the point, but it definitely had purpose.
Well people did expect Luke to be a super dooper Jedi taking down foes left, right, and centre during the movie but I will skip on past that. I wouldn't classify him as similar to Yoda in ESB in any way except that they were both exiles on far-flung planets. Both had completely different mind-sets, did different things, and had completely different arcs (Yoda didn't even really have an arc in ESB being mostly a minor character more or less).
I do agree that Rey shouldn't have been able to use mind powers in the first movie, but I don't think anything else she did was much different to what Luke could do. Luke was able to use force pull and already use other force powers before he even saw Yoda for the first time. I think Rian actually did quite well to dispell the Mary Sue argument after the first movie, showing that she wasn't as powerful or as great as she expected and that what she did have was great faith.
It's a bandwagon when people _won't shut up_ about it.
Why is no one pointing out, that if Poe had not destroyed the dreadnaught, it would have shown up later, and sniped their escaping ships.
Sage Channel a fair point however the resistance didn’t know the first order had the ability to track their ships though hyperspace (even though the technology already existed with the empire seems the writers forgot that) they didn’t know the dreadnought would be able to chase them
I do! I point it out all the time. Which is why the movie really can't say he was in the wrong. But the movie REALLY wanted him to be in the wrong.
@@TNA-Aylin it doesn't matter. They still give him shit for the rest of the movie despite the fact that he was clearly right and saved them all
He says they are PLANET KILLERS. I'm assuming that means that it is a heavy bomber used for unloading on large targets, like carpet bombing a planet. I imagined it was for the "London Blitz" or the bombing of Tokyo or Dresden on a planetary scale (which is why it's there. It is there to destroy the base from orbit). It could have been used on Crait from orbit ... but the star destroyer likely have some orbital bombardment capabilities, cause it's a battle in SPACE, so Poe help ... in this small respect. But they were planning getting away (they didn't know about the tracking) or and later hiding on Crait and not having to fight anyone with or without a dreadnought. Its likely not designed for ship to ship fighting (he CALLS IT A PLANET KILLER, that suggest really bad aim). Also the FIRST ORDER likely has more than one dreadnought so losing the resistance's WHOLE bombing fleet against it is DUMB if it was the only dreadnought in existence he MIGHT have had a point. If they couldn't take Crait from the ground, they could just wait for a new dreadnought to arrive, so yeah, Poe gains almost nothing at a HUGE cost. Bombs would have allowed the resistance to send bombing runs against the First Order fleet during the tracking portion of the movie, to hopefully disrupt the tracking, (Chaff would be useful here). In fact, those bomber would there best bet. The tracker must be a sensor, so near the SURFACE of the ships, likely in front somewhere. Bombing runs against the nose of the Supremacy would have worked. Also his, Finn's and Rose's dumb plan to destroy the tracker from within exposes the evacuation to the First Order. Poe's actually does a better job destroying the resistance than The First Order. He DISOBEYED ORDERS IN BATTLE, and GOT PEOPLE KILLED. EVERY SINGLE PERSON UNDER HIS COMMAND DIED. That's a court martial offense with very serious repercussions, death in many time periods. He is a version of the stupid glory hound young hothead officer/commander that gets his whole division killed. The scary thing is they exist in real life too! It is a "Charge of the Light Brigade" level mistake (which was the result of a miscommunication).
@@maggiemakgill He also called it a fleet killer. Indicating it could have easily targeted and destroyed the fleet.
The Order has THOUSANDS of ships!? from where!? it was specified in the Force Awakens that they had a relatively small force, THATS why they built the Planet of Death and blew up the New Republic Fleet without engaging it wasnt it? did I miss something, like I was under the impression that the First Order's resources were so streched they couldnt chase the Resistance fleet or properly defend the Planet of Death from half a dozen fighters.
Did I miss something? where did they get THOUSANDS of ships? and why didnt they used them?
When you have two different directors working on a movie and its sequel, without any frame or reference to keep the second one on track with the first one, you get major plot holes like that. It served JJ's purposes for the First Order to still be small and growing, where as it serves Johnson's interests to have them suddenly be a big massive force. It served JJ's interests to have Luke mysteriously vanish after his Jedi were killed, while it served Johnson's interests to then assassinate the character entirely for his plot. This is why the Harry Potter movies can still mostly work when having different directors, but these ones can't. the HP movies were mostly bound to the books, these are bound only to what the directors want and what Kathleen Kennedy wants.
@@TechLeafRanger I mean, there's a decent possibility--if the First Order did manage to crack the New Republic in half with the Starkiller in TFA, and brought a bunch of the galaxy to surrender out of fear, then they could have secured a bunch of locally based fleets. The New Republic is much less centralized than the Old by what we can see, so having it be more of a federation like NATO and having the various sector members maintain their own fleets either in place of or in addition to the Republic Navy would be plausible and explain where the First Order is getting their fleet.
So you get a First Order fleet of widely assorted ships led by the few homogenous super-capable ships they've built themselves.
But of course, you need to _tell people that_ if that's what you're going for. And _none_ of the Sequel movies have been great at explaining their background or offscreen information.
@InchonDM Except we DON'T get that. The First Order fleet literally is made up of thousands of ships that were meant specifically for the First Order. It's not a fleet made up of local ships pressed into service after they blew up the leadership of the New Republic, every one of their ships is still SPECIFICALLY a warship built or bought exclusively for the First Order. The Resurgence-class Battle Cruisers, along with the dreadnaught and whatever the Supremacy is. Besides, the point of this isn't that they took out the New Republic leadership and THEN had the thousands of ships they needed to conquer these planets, the point is they literally have these ships as soon as Last Jedi's title crawl begins, when they are only NOW swarming in to take over those planets. So they somehow have this massive fleet when literally, not even 24 hours ago, they apparently didn't. Because, again, you have two different directors/writers who have absolutely no interest or care in making sure their stories connect. Ruin Jokeson (and I will call him that forever) literally even admitted recently, in an interview, that he doesn't care about anything except giving you that 'two hour experience', stating he didn't care how the movie connects to Force Awakens or to Star Wars itself. He just wanted to make what he wanted to make. So literally, Last Jedi has no connection to anything else except that it has the name Star Wars, and it has characters from Force Awakens in it. The First Order was building itself up for years after Endor, but still they should not have had the resources or manpower to build up a massive fleet that we're led to believe they have in Last Jedi, or even Star Killer base in Force Awakens. It was just bad, inconsistent writing on the part of people who honestly didn't give a crap about Star Wars, and just used it for their own ends.
@@TechLeafRanger No, I know that's not what we got. I'm saying that's how I would explain the discrepancy.
@InchonDM I could maybe see that except for the fact that really, it just wouldn't make sense either way. Starkiller Base is what would allow the First Order to cow these other systems into complacency and thus allow them to press their ships into service. Without it, the First Order wouldn't have enough ships to actually force any local systems or governments to give them their ships, except for the smallest and weakest ones. If they did have enough ships to do that, they wouldn't need to do it anyways because they would have enough ships to intimidate these governments, and so they wouldn't need them. Either way, the First Order either wouldn't have the ships to succeed in cowing the governments into submission to gain access to their fleets, or they would have enough ships that they don't need to do that anyways. Ultimately, none of this would really make sense simply because Jar Jar and Ruin simply did their best to rip off the plots of A New Hope and Empire strikes Back, except making it all unrealistic. With the OT, the Empire being able to do what it does make sense because it is a vast, powerful Empire that controls most if not all the galaxy, and has the resources and manpower to do that. In the Disney trilogy, the First Order is made out to be the smaller group in comparison, and yet it is randomly given all these ships, resources, and manpower it shouldn't have, with no realistic explanation. And Ruin made it worse by making them even bigger then they could be. *shakes head* It just is a massive inconsistent, unrealistic mess.
Nothing's more infuriating than a conflict motivated solely by the stupidity of the villains.
Not true. It's worse when the conflict is caused by the stupidity of the villains and the protaganists.
@@frostryu Having both sides be let down by poor command structures could be really interesting if it was done differently. Say, the First Order are fanatics who are so top down that nobody does anything unless specifically told to (which is kinda what they're like in the sequel trilogy I guess) while the Resistance or Republic or whatever had the opposite problem where it was never totally clear who was in charge, and commanders couldn't stop their underlings from doing whatever they wanted.
They would have needed some scenes to establish this prior to the battle, though, and then the rest of the movie would probably have had to be about how both sides try to overcome their limitations.
It really feels like this is *kind of* what they were going for, but they must have spent so much time bickering over creative direction they eventually had to rush out the script or something.
@@MisdirectedSasha i feel like i've seen that in some Gundam stuff before. Both federation and Zeon have issues with corrupt and incompetent leadership but typically for different reasons. Zeon's commanders achieved their power through Nepotism and is full of brown nosers willing to pull any trick they have to climb up their respective ladders. While the Federations leadership on the other hand is made up of career politicians taking actions they think will make them look good enough for promotions at the expense of their troops well being and relying on the rigid command structure to force friendly forces to follow their commands. It's really good at showing both sides being frustrated and fucked over by their leadrship. The two specific instances that come into mind are when Zeon at one points gets a new mobile suit capable of defeating new federation weapons, yet the commander of these new mobile suits refuses to send them to the front lines simply because he doesn't like the front line commander, they end up getting held in reserve which allows federation forces time to regroup and launch a counterattack. And the other is when a Federation warship is attempting to retreat to earth to regroup with other federation forces only to be impounded in a space station on the way by it's commanding officer because he wants his own warship, especially if it can help him defend his station, despite the fact that the warship in question is not under his jurisdiction and that defending the station is hopeless with their current manpower.
Anyway sorry for the long comment but reading yours made me think of that
What drives me nuts is when the Heroes plan works because it either requires the antagonist to flee, give up, fail to act, or do something inappropriate for them to win, when non of those actions would be rational to take.
Unfortunately Po's "anti-risk" character development is totally self-defeating, as every risk he takes is both tactically justifiable and caused by his incompetent superiors making bizarre choices that leave the Resistance no other options to win. The point his character arc completes and he realises his "mistake" of taking risky actions is the worst moment possible, as his choice to break off the speeder attack would leave the resistance completely defenceless and without any chance against the mini-Death star laser without Finn deciding to sacrifice himself to destroy it (something that would have been a good example of show-not-tell for another attempted theme if Rose hadn't fucked it up, but that's another argument entirely). Basically, Rian Johnson turned the one competent person in the film into a philosophically deluded moron right at the moment his original character was needed.
the whole operation is commanded by an elderly princess of a destroyed planet, she has no idea what she is doing, but its her personal fleet...
Leia used to be a competent commander, or at least a competent operative. But then the new canon decided to give her and Han "failed my child" baggage for dumb reasons. The biggest travesty of Poe's shoehorned arc however was that it was made totally meaningless and irrelevant. Rian's subversion of the heroic sacrifice was itself subverted when he made admiral(don't heroically sacrifice yourself) Holdo heroically sacrifice herself with a suicide ram that by all rights should've been done by Ackbar. And then subverted Finn's heroic sacrifice to save dozens of people by having Rose try to heroically sacrifice herself to save Finn which dooms those dozens of people. If ever there was an example of why the artist does not inherently have to right to do whatever the fuck they want with an established IP, this movie was it. It was like watching a 12yr old's shitty fanfic.
Also, having an ace pilot who takes remarkable risks for remarkable reward is extremely entertaining, and subduing him neuters the character
Exactly. If Po hadn't destroyed the dreadnought, guess what would've obliterated the fleet once they were followed out of hyperspace
If they really wanted to go that way, have the bombers fail to destroy the dreadnought, the dreadnought hits the Raddus but doesn't destroy it, but now it's leaking fuel. That actually helps the chase after, instead of having the Supremacy lead the chase the dreadnought would still be in pursuit, and they wouldn't want to use their fighters against the Resistance because they're a little worried that there may be more bombers and so they order the TIE Fighters to hold back and defend the fleet, because let's be honest I seriously doubt they are that concerned with losing fighters. Holdo does her kamikaze on the dreadnought and it's escorts but just when the Resistance thinks they've won and escaped have the Supremacy and her escort jump in system to finish them off.
Heck, they could have just thrown out some reference to some automated planetary defense system on the base, which would give some reason for the First Order to prioritize its destruction, even with the personnel evacuated.
Or maybe they hadn't finished the evacuation.
@@kaicreech7336 targeting the crsuier first would have been the right move regardless if there was resistance personnel in the ground. That base ain't going anyway anytime soon.
Like an ion cannon power generator, since Empire Strikes Back established the Rebels had used them to break blockades in the past. Coulda just dubbed it in during the commander's walk and talk as off-screen chatter and it'd be immeasurably better...
The Last Jedi deserves all the criticism it receives, vicious or not.
tell me about youre complain about TLJ
" Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none. " EXTERMINATUS!
Cowards die in shame.
Die for the Emperor or die trying.
Success is measured in blood. Hours, or the enemies.
It is better to die for the emperor, than live for your self.
only in death does duty end
@@cyberpunkfalangist2899 that's my other favourite !!!
The battle is not just silly; it is totally inconsistent with all of the other ships and tactics we have seen in the other Star Wars movies. The heavy bombers are useless ships. They are too slow and fragile to be used in space combat - as demonstrated in this very battle - and don’t appear to be designed for atmospheric flight so they are of no use for planetary bombardment either. What military organization would waste precious resources to purchase such worthless ships?
they could be useful if the bombs they dropped can be dropped from orbit onto planets surface. That is really the only use they could have. Its ironic that these leftys want to make a film that shows space vehicles based on WW2 Heavy bombers when those bombers were known for inflicting such heavy causalities on civilians.
CAN WE LOOK AT THE POSITIVE SIDES OF IT?!
Exotic Madness, there are no positive sides. Unless you enjoy mocking idiots, in which case the entire movie is a treasure trove of stupidity.
@@Martiandawn Maybe we are the ones looking at it from the wrong side. Maybe The Last Jedi is a parody. But to be honest, even for that it's shit., still it's better as a parody than something that we are supposed to take seriously.
Peter Farkas, I’ll write the Disney board of directors and let them know that Rian Johnson was just using their billion dollar cash cow to make a parody. I’m sure that news will ease the pain over all the money they lost.
8:35 I like the idea of the Raddus being in danger right from the start. Hell, it's supposed to have some of the very strongest non-space-station shields in the movies. I would buy it being able to face-tank one shot from the Dreadnought's cannons, but the power of the shots knocking out the shields (or at least leave them at very diminished capacity). This would still save the Resistance from that first barrage, establish a real sense of danger for the safety of the ship, and allow Kylo to demolish the hangar later on, without that whole "concentrate shields on the engines" line to try to justify their removing the shields from the hangar bay.
Rian's shitty first draft needed at least half a dozen writers to revise and proof it, but he pushed for zero instead.
Honestly he needed someone to sit him down and tell him he done fucked up star wars
@@michaelcross7665 Nah. TLJ has a bunch of good ideas. The problem is that they don't evolve beyond IDEAS into a cohesive, focused script.
Why didn't they have an interdictor. Can't jump into hyperspace until that ship is disabled.
Wait...this new starwars doesn't believe in gravity wells preventing hyperspace. SMH...I hate starwars now
The Interdictor Cruiser at the time of your comment had been a major part of Star Wars Canon for a while, Appearing in Rebels and the new Thrawn Trilogy. Also Gravity Wells preventing hyperspace has been a contended point throughout all of star wars, not just Canon.
Taseric how gay are you? Interdictors prevent ships from jumping to hyperspace, that’s a fact.
@@punctuationman334 Well yes, but the whole premise of "Large Mass stops hyperspace" has been a contested point. The Clone Wars (2008) frequently shows ships straight into atmosphere, almost through stars etc. Same with Rebels, although it's not as bad there as they actually have interdictor cruisers.
Also i never said that Interdictors didn't prevent it, but the entire premise of the interdictor (ships can't hyperspace near large mass) hasn't been consistent. Also calling people gay makes you sound like a 14 year old lmao
@@tTaseric it hasn't been consistent since Disney took SW over. Rebels is Disney. Rogue One and TFA is Disney
I don't recall reading one SW novel where they violated this
@@animated000 As i said before, The Clone Wars has frequently shown ships jumping directly in atmosphere or very close to planets. I can't think of any specifics as a lot of the battles kinda blend together but there was that one episode where a Corvette was about to crash into a star through hyperspace, which technically shouldn't even be possible since the Star counts as a large enough mass. Even then, surely the planets in the system would draw it out.
And The Clone Wars wasn't made by Disney back then.
And you're really going to tell me that Star Wars Legends was consistent with Hyperspace for the entire 30-40 years of it's existence? They could barely even keep their most iconic ships consistent let alone something as lesser known as the mechanics of hyperspace.
The postitives to the Last Jedi: It looked good, sounded good, the cinematography was just gorgeous, one of the best looking Star wars movies I've seen.
The negatives: a meandering plot that offered no progression to the characters, and in some cases literally made light of some of the potentially awesome set ups from the last movie. With no logical explanation some characters were jarringly changed for no apparent reason other than that was the story the director wanted and you had to take it or leave it.
The only subversion was how incompetent the film was in a story telling perspective, it offered no new understanding of the universe, but was instead wish fulfillment for the director.
@@catmani2 Here's another thing to add, Kylo killing Snoke actually regressed and ultimately locked his character into a dark path
There were 1 or 2 plot points / scenes i thought were written really well (Snoke punishing Kylo, Snoke torturing Rey, Luke revealing himself to the First Order, which is kind of a controversial one but if you remove the other 90% of the film, this is what ROTJ Luke would have done)
Nah, it wasn't wish fulfilment. Just Jian Rohnson trying to act all edgy and hip or w/e he thinks that shitty plot was meant to be.
The "meandering plot" and general lack of character development (there was some important development as pointed out by others) is middle-chapter syndrome. Empire actually had those issues too, yet was my favorite SW movie.
The big problem IMO is that the plot rests almost entirely on characters repeatedly doing phenomenally stupid things.
That's the problem with these Holly wood movies, you throw a pile of money at anything and it's bound to have at least some visual quality. But looking good doesn't excuse the lack of writing and planning. Lasers are dope tho
Thank you so much for this. It's incredibly difficult to discuss anything related to this movie without getting two polar reactions out of most people. I'm happy you stuck to just trying to fix not only the battle, but the main reason for it in regards to character motivations. Great short!
I like to think that Cannady didn't know the base was evacuated. it was stated that the fighters were made ready, but he couldn't launch them because he had been ordered not to, but as soon as an opportunity presented itself, he had them scrambled. he's the most competent commander we see in the film, besides Leia.
@@crimsonquill4255 Considering the numerous times SW fighters have proven more effective than capital ships, why would anyone NOT launch CAP at least, more if you know your in a hostile system. Hux forgot this was Star WARS and not Star TREK where fighters are useless.
@@crimsonquill4255 regardless of whether the base was already evacuated, the resistance fleet was a far better choice to engage from a tactical perspective, the base certainly isn't going anywhere.
You are trying to apply logic or reason to NPC/SJWs.
@@crimsonquill4255 Leia isn't a competent commander in the film. She forgot everything she ever knew about waging asymmetrical warfare and makes incredibly bad decisions repeatedly.
Whenever I see the Star Fortress I cringe at what it could have been. Since it was obviously based off of the flying fortress, but for some reason doesn't act anything like it, I think it should have been super durable, like can continue flying with have a ship, and should have only like two point defense cannons that can spin and stuff. The flying fortress was also super durable, sometimes flying with only half a wing and multiple holes in the fuselage. The dropping of the bombs straight down doesn't bother me as much as the fact that they made it so slow that it couldn't out run it's own ordnance. It would have also been nice to have seen a turbolaser on it since it is obviously designed for heavy weapons and because it would be so unique to see any small ship with a turbolaser. Sigh, what the Star Fortress could have been,
it should have more than two-point defense cannons, the B-17 actually had a competent defensive armament, one German bomber ace remarked that attacking a B-17 was like "making love to a porcupine that's on fire"
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 how the hell does he know what thats like
@@awhahoo You probably don't want to know. Must like it rough. 😂
Those bombers were perhaps the dumbest thing in the entire scene. Did they run out of Y-Wings? B-Wings?
When fans can write a better script than Hollywood.
There are better fan short films on you tube. Real fans know SW better than Disney.
To be honest the entire movie was a bit silly.
"Silly" ? It was gobshite!
"That's just silly"
Like entire SW franchise...
Yea it was confusing at first but now I see why it was silly. still I believed leia should've been demoted because she and poe created the plan to destroy it. after the dernought was destroyed she demotes poe for his reklesness instead of taking the blame for changing the plan while it was being excuted and wasting time to organize the bombers in formation and then deciding that after the plan was 60% done she decides to change it. It doesn't make sense and its illogical to do that. Who in the military does that. I still think poe did the right thing besides the resistance lost what 16 heavy bombers and 80 bomber crew compared to the first order who lost candy, 2,000+ personal and a drenought capable of destroying the radius. Besides the resources to build the bombers is a fraction of the resources that was required to build the drenought. I believe thay poe should've been promoted instead of being demoted. There are war heros who disobeyed orders form their superiors and end up saving the lives of the countless others who would've died.
"a bit silly"
if ever there was an understatement...
Once you start thinking about it for 10 seconds, about 90% of this movie starts to sound extremely silly
My younger brother (who's like 11) claimed that this entire movie was stupid on a HEARTBEAT. When the kids start to criticize your movie without thinking, your movie's got an issue.
Rising Horizon Gaming Well... Even children criticize it.
Just because something is meant for children, that doesn't mean it HAS to be stupid.
@Rising Horizon Gaming You're underestimating children it seems.
Leia: Oh my god... what is that screaming... is that Han? WHAT IS HE DOING WITH HIM!!!
Lando: I'm sure he'll be fine... Vader's just... tickling him relentlessly. Yeah, that's it.
*Han in the distance*: ASK ME A QUESTION ALREADY! ARE YOU TORTURING ME JUST FOR FUN!!!
Lando: Eh he he...
The big issue with having idiotic villains is that it’s like playing a game on easy mode versus playing it on hard mode. Hard mode makes the story make more sense and it makes beating the game entirely more satisfying.
This just makes Leia look like a villain; like she is playing politics by setting the situation up so that she gets all the glory but casts all the blame on Poe. Political figures do it to the military all the time.
It would make a great story if it wasn’t LEIA ORGANA who is not a selfish scheming asshole. Yet another character butchered by TLJ, because... Roundhead Rian.
Like Carrie Fisher herself (may she rest in peace) described Ryan Johnsson: *"He's an asshole."*
Ruin Johnson
I love how brutally honest she was. Rest in peace
#1 Maybe the First Order only has very few Dreadnoughts? So the loss of one is actually a significant loss for the FO.
#2 Use B-Wings instead of the Star Forts. They were designed as anti capital ship fighters. Also could introduce the K-wing. The Star Forts just don't make sense when you have proton torpedoes.
The Star Fortresses don't make sense because they fall apart under even the least concentrated TIE fire.... And they are .... why are they so slow? Are their engines that underpowered?
Do they not have shields either?
FUCKKK this movie.
#1 you are probably right
#2 the resistance clearly doesn't have any B or Y-wings (I dont even know what a K-wing is) or they would have used them, their entire fighter complement was deployed before the start of the battle.
the use of these star fortress bombers actually serves as a direct WW2 aerial combat homage, In a similar vain to OT star wars's dogfights but in space.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense in-universe I'm saying it makes sense from a "I am writing a battle I've been told I need to include this new ship so Disney can sell more toys, so let's manufacture a situation where I make a reference to WW2 in a call-back kinda way" it could have been written better but I understand why it wasn't.
Why does the Resistance not have B-wings and Y-wings? If they are strapped for cash and such why not have some relic ships that they got out of mothballs or something. A old Y or B-wing in bad repair is still better than those exploding coffins
@@kazmark_gl8652 the k-wing was an extended universe replacement for the extremely out of date y-wing that the new republic used. it was one ship, similar to the e-wing (x-wing replacement) that Disney threw out when they made all non-film/tv-series content non-canon.
@Rising Horizon Gaming ok where the fuck would the resistance get Star fortresses? they are a rogue paramilitary organization run by the daughter of the worst mass murderer in galactic history they can get only what they can buy, steal or salvage top of the line military fighters are not on that list most of what they have is 30 years out of date or custom made. AFAIK, Star fort are new and B wing is old that means Star fort is more expensive. Leia is just dumb at military I guess.
Totally valid points. A little negative is necessary to move forward. And a few other points:
1 - Why couldnt the bombers approach from above the dreadnought, just above the main target?
2 - Is really a DN so defenseless against one fighter?
3 - Was it me that watched too many WWII pacific naval battles videos to accept such incompetent planning and execution or mr. Johnson who watched none?
4 - Why most of this movie problems can be solved in two lines?
5 - How come the FO is so incompetent and dominate galaxies? One could answer "look back at Vietnam". But the FO doesn't seem bound to the same constraints US did at that time.
to answer your first point, star wars (and star trek) treats space like an atmosphere, so spacecraft bank to turn and otherwise behave aerodynamically, you have sound and, crucially to your point, aircraft are usually orientated along the same axial plane (except that one time han gets two star destroyers to collide at a right angle). so yeah, it would actually look really cool if the bombers were arranged in a line directly above the dreadnought at 90 degrees, or if anyone used three-dimensional tactics in space combat at all in any of these films, but alas, it's science fantasy not science fiction
@@wolfgangrecordings I got it. It is really a limitation on cinematic vision.
I think the bigger issue is that at the end nobody knows how to zigzag to avoid incoming fire from the First order fleet.
I've said this before (and on this channel) to my mind, the theme of the movie is that leadership has broken down. The people in charge can't do anything useful and the structure of command has fallen apart.
Not that what was done wasn't really ill-concidred, but that that's the point.
But yeah, you've got some good changes.
You know guys, after The Expanse, every other space battle looks silly.
Sometimes I think some producers are not aware about what their potential audiences were watching.
Most os the people who saw TLJ, also saw the batltle of bastards, band of brothers and tons of WWII videos.
@@mustavogaia2655 yes, you are absolutely right. However, I think, Sci-Fy gives an opportunity not to copy WWII scenarios of battles.
@@sergusy7005 Sure that is what the Expanse showed us.
I really need to see the Expanse (on my long list). Another good sequence of space battles is from Babylon 5 (older series). Many if not all B5 fans recommend Expanse as the new best Scifi series btw.
LOTRFAN33 hey! If you still have not seen it, do not start. Otherwise all other so called space battles gonna look like a crap.
Jeez, where do we begin? This movie is just mountains and mountains of bad writing
Agreed, I'll start though by saying bombers don't work in space, because there's no gravity in space =)
And poor ship design almost every ship they added has some massive glaring design issues
@@Doublebarreledsimian The bombs were magnetic, but that's beside the point. It's still one Jar Jar away from prequel bad.
I don't like the last jedi but I mean the whole "bombers in space" argument is kinda nonesense...there is clearly artificial gravity inside the ship...so the bombs would fall and carry on after they left the grav-field
(That is if you don't trust the Information from the book (cant remember the name sorry) in which it is stated that the bombs are accelerated by the rails they are on
Edit: its the last jedi guidebook, its stated they are accelerated electro-magnetically
@@alexknj1 The Prequels had issues dont get me wrong, but at least there is a decent story behind it (if not very well portrayed on screen), one of palpatinates infiltration and corruption of once good to evil, the Sequels though have no story, it just looks pretty, and I will take a poorly portrayed good story over a well portrayed bad one any day. Although Jar Jar can go die
You know I MIGHT have swallowed the film if they had some once of military sense, for me the lack of military competency by both sides just made me lose interest. Every fight is conducted by idiots who have no idea how to fight. How did any of these people get command? The Empire was poor at fighting the rebellion but they were not idiots they were just trained to fight the last war (the Clone Wars). The Captains of Star destroyers were not trained on how to deal with a multiplanet insurgency they were a "peacetime" military whos only experience of war was the Clone Wars. The First Order are Clowns who have no excuse. They should be excellent at counterinsurgency because they have had time to learn Rebellion tactics and how to counter them. Out of Respect to what this channel is about I won't go on with what else I did not like about the film but the tactics really ruined it for me. Mostly because the actions were just not rational. I cannot fathom the thought process behind any of these orders. The lack of communication of the Resistance could be explained if they were plucky amateurs but they are not they have GCW veterans, former officers and pilots. Where were these people trained? Why was Haldo given command when she clearly had no idea how to command. It would make sense if she was just some political figure with no experience but she was meant to have this impressive past. I could go on but won't but argh this shit really annoys me. When tactics and strategy serve a script rather than the other way around.
The Resistance essentially one because the First Order was more incompetent than them. There are so many tactical blunders it's stupid. Fighters should have been scrambled immediately, the cannon should have fired at the capital ship first, the escort Star Destroyers alone would have shredded the bombers if they actually fired, why is Haldo even a thing, Po's X-Wing pulls off maneuvers that TIE Pilots are trained in and could easily counter (TIE Pilots are literally the best pilots in the galaxy, most aces are defected TIE pilots), where the fuck are the B-Wings, didn't A-Wings make X-Wings obsolete, didn't TIE Interceptors make TIE Fighters obsolete, why are there no TIE Bombers harassing the Raditz, why did they make a bigger AT-AT when they could use a Juggernaut tank (It has more weapons, is faster, acts as a command center, and carries way more troops), the FO could have attacked the base while Kylo was fighting Ghost Luke, why doesn't the Supremacy have an interdictor field, why are the ships only firing a couple of cannons, why don't the FO ships jump in front of the ships, why are hangers used to launch fighters (I made a fanon Imperial class Star Destroyer for a fan-fiction that had 10 launch tubes on each side with the hangers mostly being for landing), why the fuck isn't the mini-death laser not mounted on any of the ships. I probably missed a whole bunch but I can't watch this again. If I was Hux, the Resistance would be dead. Anyone who isn't retarded or a child could do a better job. And is technological progress just not a thing anymore in Star Wars? That's the best part about a war, the slow shift in what each faction fields not more of the same shit given a sidegrade. Alright, I'm done. I'm just going to lie down and dream of a better Star Wars now because that's the only place it won't be colored high definition shit, my dreams.
randisides love the comment
@@maesterdanteamadeus444 i agree with you for the most part but the a wing was never designed to replace the x wing the x wing is a multi-role space superiority fighter the a wing was a dedicated interceptor.
@@louiseckstark31 There was several replacements for the X-Wing proper as the X-Wing isn't a space superiority fighter. The X-Wing is what I like to call a 'Scramble Fighter' as it wasn't even a good fighter, it's flaws more obvious with the more agile TIE's of the FO having shields. The cheapness and ease of production/maintenance of X-Wings made it a easy choice to pad out most squadrons. The only thing about the T-70 that makes it multi-role is the interchangeable weapon pods but that's as useless as it sounds considering the space for 2 proton torpedo launchers and 6 (I think?) torpedoes doesn't leave much room for anything outside of additional guns or concussion missiles. Now that I think about it, they should have upgraded the Z-95 and had 6 hardpoints to place any combination of heavy laser cannons, torpedoes, bombs, missiles, or rockets to serve as an actual multi-role or even 'swing-role' fighter. This has got my nerd brain churning. Imagine a Z-100m swing-role fighter with the 6 hardpoints and an T-70 X-Wing Interceptor with the 4 laser cannons mounted in the nose (for obvious reasons) and 8-16 mounted concussion missiles.
@@maesterdanteamadeus444 quote from star wars the complete crossections. (Carrying heavy firepower, and defensive shields, the x wing is nonetheless maneuverable enough for close combat with empire's lethally agile TIE fighters.A truly formidable space superiority fighter, the x wing's complex systems and rare alloys have delayed production of significant numbers of craft for years.) from Wikipedia copy and pasted ( The X-wing starfighter is a fictional spacecraft from the original and sequel Star Wars trilogies and the Star Wars expanded universe. Designed and manufactured by the Incom Corporation, they are depicted as the primary space superiority interceptor, close air support and dogfighter of the Rebel Alliance, the New Republic and the Resistance. They are armed with four laser cannons and two proton torpedo launchers, which allowed for extended multi-role missions that required versatile balance of speed with firepower. The craft has been merchandised as a variety of toys, models licensed for use in games, novels and comics.) also it wasn't a good fighter then you compare to a the TIE line? seriously? that entire line is a plethora of everything not to do when designing a dogfighter in real life and even in the movies we see it lose most engagements with the empire fielding better pilots the still lose a lot of fighters, and finally we haven't really seen any ships hardpoints on their wings in the current canon legends being a different story see, the k wing for a perfect example of this. For replacements lines for the x wing in legends it was the e wing that was designed for that role and in canon no replacement line currently exists.
I think the argument could be made that the entire "attack the dreadnaught" plan was one out of sheer desperation in the event the base couldn't be evacuated before the First Order arrived - the look of relief on Leia's face when the last transport reports clear of the base just shouts "Oh, thank the FORCE we don't have to actually engage the dreadnaught - let's get the hell out of here"; then Poe, who Leia presumably built up prior to the engagement as being crucial for the survival of the Resistance due to his abilities in the cockpit decides "well, I've already jumped in my X-wing, might as well blow something up" without the strategic awareness to see, as Leia did, that the entire attack plan was a suicidally desperate, steaming pile of Bantha crap.
I think the strategical stupidity can also be chalked up to the First Order being descended from an Empire whose tactical and strategic attitudes were flawed due to chronically overrating their own abilities and underrating their opponents, combined with 3 decades of isolation and relying on self-made propaganda that resulted in a group-think mentality that has departed from good sense that some people, like Captain Canady, only wake themselves from when reality is slapping them in the face (I question whether a younger, more zealous officer in Canady's place would ever realize that fighters not being deployed beforehand was a glaring oversight). The Resistance, on the other hand, is just so damn desperate that they don't have any alternative.
Doesn't take away from the fact that the Starfortress is just a terrible design.
@Chara Your points are valid, but hear me out.
If those were Canady's orders, then it proves my point - the First Order, like the Empire, is more preoccupied with 1) strict control over their forces rather than giving their commanders operational latitude to ensure victory based on a real-time assessment of the situation, and enslavement to the Tarkin Doctrine, where 2) inflicting terror on the enemy by making them watch their base be obliterated overrides the more practical approach of making sure the enemy can't escape, and 3) it is more important that they appear invulnerable by not being concerned enough to deploy fighters, thus drastically underestimating their opponents and giving them an opportunity to strike.
As far as the Resistance goes, yes, the Dreadnought would have just followed them through hyperspace. But nobody in the Resistance knew they could do that yet, so as far as they knew, retreating into hyperspace was still a viable option - which still makes Poe's decision a reckless endangerment of lives. To paraphrase SFDebris (whose material I highly recommend), if you bet all your life savings on a single spin of a roulette wheel and win, the fact that you won does not negate the fact that it was a stupidly risky decision.
Come on jump on the band wagon, we have cookies.
yep...
[walks around with a huge cookie jar on a hand truck] get cher cookies, fresh cookies here.....
FUCK TLJ! I WANT KATHLEEN KENNEDY RUIN JOHNSON AND THE REST OF THE SJW CUCKED LIBTARDS EXECUTED! ERASE EVERYTHING DISNEY HAS DONE STAR WARS IS RUINED!!!
can I get my cookie now?
*eats cookies*
Longtime member of the band wagon!
I've been on the band wagon for a year now and only now I'm learning that we cookies.
Wait, we have cookies? I want some!
TLJ: "What are these Tack-Ticks you speak of?"
Daniel: ...and Leia has to say...
Commercial: Everything is on sale...
Timing!
Quite the excellent summation of the battle's flaws, as well as how one might go about fixing them. Good work as always, Daniel!
You actually gave a sound argument rather than giving just a bunch of hate so it's cool. I do like your ideas to fix the battle.
“bunch of hate“
Of all the people I've watched criticizing TLJ, none of them have just given "a bunch of hate".
@@DonVigaDeFierro indeed. The "hateful star wars audience" and "toxic fanbase" is a disney myth. Rather than admit they made a bad movie, they lashed out at perfectly logical criticisms, like this one, and pretended everyone said "tlj is stupid because there were women generals and purple haired heroes"
Literally no youtube critics or major bloggers said that
@@JC-ph3ku To be fair plenty complained about the purple hair and a few were toxic about it but at the end of the day their overall criticisms were valid even if they were "edgy" while presenting it.
@@JamesKlemm87 there's a difference between making fun of a purple-haired woman in a stupid movie, and saying the movie is stupid because hair is purple. She got hate because the movie was hateable, it wasn't hateable because of her hair. Don't confuse the cause and effect.
You're missing a little thing called contingency. Cannady didn't scramble the fighters and fired on the ground base, because he expected the Resistance to still be there. And the Resistance had this plan to destroy the dreadnought in case they couldn't get away and they start executing it, than decide to forgo it, because it's no longer worth the cost. Hindsight is always twenty twenty. Plus, people do make mistakes.
Snoke explicitly stated that he does not keep Hux around for his tactical brilliance
@Thelondonbadger 😁 He does say why he keeps him around
LMAO i gotta say, your narration was HILARIOUS! Id definitely watch more videos of you breaking down weird/unusual scenes/space battles in other movies. Love this channel, keep doing what you're doing!
Something you forgot to mention is that while poe turned off his transmitter all the bombers and fighters still hat their transmitters on. So leigha still could have called them back.
I myself greatly dislike TLJ, but I *definitely* understand you wanting to keep the channel positive! Either way, it was great seeing you dissect the strategy in this scene. You really know your stuff, and I'd love to see more like this!
This battle is almost as suspect as the Battle of New Caprica. Looking at you Lee Adama.
Come on it wasnt that good 😂 the adama manouver alone beats everything last jedi tried
Daniel Cusack. the first half of the Battle of New Caprice was awsome. the second half was also awsome but stopped making sense the more you thought about it.
CMDR. Shepard At least the BSG one was emotionally involving with characters we actually cared about in a truly intense battle. I can forgive it for any obvious tactical errors that were made.
On the other hand, the TLJ battle started with a fucking Your Momma joke. It was embarrassing crap in the first minute of the scene.
NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars Um, they didn't have a way to replace the viper fabrication facilities of the Pegesus. Also, they didn't just lose a battlestar, they lost the single most powerful weapon in their arsenal.
@NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars It was dumb as shit in a war where the enemy had dozens if not hundreds of ships which they could easily replace while they had these 2 capital ships and that was it with no feasible way of replacing them. They gained fuck all from destroying those basestars.
Also that name yikes.
You just taught everyone how to do a proper critique. You laid out the problem, picked it apart, piece by piece, then you offered SOLUTIONS or alternatives, that could have been done, to better the movie! Thank you! Highly needed, in this day and age.
Few objections:
- Not deploying fighters was actually Hux's order. Canady could actually only prepare them for launch.
- Autocannons bombardment of the planet base makes sense. Planetary defense weapons could threaten any attacking fleet. And the First Order could not know that the base is already empty.
- Sending squads of bombers seems as the only way the Resistance could cover its retreat, but it is very costy, as we could see. General Organa made the right decision, recalling the attack group when it was not necessary to attack, to prevent high casualties.
- Poe was demoted for disobeying direct orders and causing high losses by his recklessness. The original battleplan has nothing to do with this (it works more like a guideline for soldiers to know at least approximately what to do if things take unexpected directions). General Organa was in charge of the whole operation, so she could make any changes she wanted. And sticking to the plan even when circumstances change may lead to defeat.
To end this, I have to mention that we don't have the whole picture of the battle. We may see some decision as bad simply because we cannot see the context. That may be the major flaw of many sci-fi battles. It could be solved by paying more attention to the plan and making it senseful, showing the battle from more perspectives, not only seeing soldiers fighting at some place, knowing nothing about the whole picture (funny thing is that many times those soldiers know more than viewers ever can, which leads to seemingly odd/stupid/bad decision).
My oppinion, they had the plan to destroy the dreadnought to gain some time to evacuate the base if they needed it, so they executed it to complete the evacuation, gain some little time they needed for the last transports to leave the planet and Leia decided to retreat instead of destroying the dreadnought, but Poe continued the attack instead of retreating and violeted her order
That actually makes a lot of sense - the plan was to blow it up, but since the evac was complete it was no longer worth the risk; still doesn't make sense why he went ahead and blew up the point defense cannons though.
Even if that was the case, Leia could have countered his order a recall the bombers.
That the Resistance was aware of the incoming First Order fleet ahead of time is interesting. If they had more than a couple of hours notice there would have been plenty of time to skip system with sufficient resources to continue to fight without the need to call in Holdo's contingent. That isn't including the amount of time it would have taken to get Holdo's forces in system and set up (hyperspace jumps aren't instant). First Order side: Target priority, target priority, target priority... If it has guns and can move but isn't, eliminate it first if the opportunity presents itself. The Raddus (and Poe when he was parked in the gunsights of all of the FO ships stalling for time) should have been toast immediately as the first priority target. Then bombard the base while ancillary craft take out the remaining ships.
Defenders of this movie: “Rian Johnson subverts your expectations”
Me: “if you mean that I thought this was going to be a good awesome movie.. yes consider me expectations subverted!!”
Further more due to this thing Star Wars is dead to me
Having said that good news Ivan Ortega’s the last jedi re-edit is completed.. I’m pretty sure
Subverrrtttttsssssssssss yourrr expectationnnnnssss
Saying Star Wars is dead because of one movie is such a weak argument when we still have amazing things like clone wars season 7 going on
Emperor Flare did you ever consider the fact that due to Star Wars doing so badly Disney Lucas film needed some good PR which is why they decided to release the season they had previously cancelled???
Comrade Commissar Yuri Oh I have no doubt on that, but that unironiclly keeps Star Wars alive, along with the mandalorian and Star Wars résistance (yes I actually liked that show). But that’s not the point here. Star Wars just doesn’t stop at the product of whatever mega corporation buys it. It has the fandom, it has the expanded universe, wonderful people like Fractalsponge or EC Henry, and many cool youtubers like EckartsLadder who were able to pull out gorgeous fan creations (Battle of the dreadnoughts for example) and just the fun of videos like Spacedock’s, to me, THAT keeps Star Wars relevant, now more than ever.
Emperor Flare it had the fandom I’m not sure if you noticed but Disney Star Wars didn’t seem to care about the fandom it already had an most of them have left including me
Yes! Thank you for this! The bit @3:00 is exactly what bugged me most! Leia's a commander in this movie, sadly; and her biggest failing is waffling on pre-established plans, and then blames Poe (who had already done his job and left) for the destruction of the bombers that happened (mostly by fluke) after *she* ordered them in carrying out *her* plan. (And then openly strikes him in front of subordinates). I didn't want Carrie Fisher's last movie to give me contempt for Leia... but she is a contemptible commander.
(It's just aggravating that Holdo/the movie seems to reinforce this 'It's Poe's fault/it was a bad call' mentality- when it turns out that destroying that dreadnaught saved the fleet, and none of it was Poe's fault in the first place! Leia had a good plan, scored a major victory with acceptable losses (that mostly only occurred by bad luck, when that bouncing debris takes out several) and then not only considers her success a failure, but blames someone else for it and gets others to, as well!
To be fair the dreadnought is probobly one of the few ships the first order has that can pierce planetary shields. And while yes the first order could have thousands of ships few would be of tier and maybe a hundred or less at resurgence class tier.
Not to mention having the dreadnought in the slow speed chase would mean the Raddus almost certainly gets destroyed a few minutes in by those big bad long range siege cannons... but yes, Poe's "rash" decision that saved the fleet should be demonized and punished... lol
Did the Rebel base have planetary shielding in TLJ?
@@Torente32 the main one we saw did. You see a ripple as the shot is about to hit the base as it pierces the shield.
Its possible other bases have this ability
Dragon Warhammer It was penetrating the atmosphere/breaking the sound barrier. Where’s evidence of a shield?
@@Torente32 Both bases did. We hear them say they put up the shields with the one on Craite and that is why there needed to be a land assault by the FO.
Thank you for this Spacedock! I truly loved this sequence because it was stunning and set the Pyrrhic nature of their position. Your edits would have made the scene superior while still keeping the majority of it in the film.
The reason so many of the bombers were destroyed was because one of the bombers activated their payload, then was his by a destroyed tie, causing a massive explosion that overpowered the hull or shields of the remaining craft. We see one of the craft in the beginning being the focus of the tie's fire, and instead of blowing up, it loses power and burns up as it plummets towards the planet.
How you don't have a job as some sort of quality control person for sci-fi scrips and battle sequences I'll never know. You're clearly a much better writer than most of the people in hollywood these days. 10/10 Spacedock Don't ever stop being amazing.
Spacedock laying out a better outline for the opening of TLJ in a side note for his video than what we actually got in theaters.
The use of the bombers and the plan (at least as I understood it) struck as being a semi-desperate act. They are expecting First Order soon and they don't know when exactly, so they set up for a big dogfight and bombing attack on the dreadnought while trying to evacuate. When Leia ordered the retreat, it seems like her thoughts were "ok, we can get out now." In lieu of that, then I would figure Poe's forcing the battle as reckless.
In the end Leia had the power of recalling the bombers. She didn't, so it's still her fault.
Too many comments to see if anyone else mentioned this, but isn't the simplest explanation for having a dreadnought busting plan that the Resistance didn't know if they would be able to complete the evacuation before the First Order arrived and therefore needed a contingency plan for stopping a dreadnought? But since they had successfully evacuated, there was no longer a need to risk the attack, Leia switched to the run away plan instead? In this scenario Poe missed the point that the bomber attack was risky but justified to protect the evacuation but not justified just to kill the Dreadnought.
About the First Order lack of fighter patrol, apparently they have one of those rigid militaries where you can't act without a superior's orders even when the need is obvious. See for instance the encounter between the Royal Navy's 2nd battle squadron and the German raiding force on 16 September 1914 where HMS Orion had the enemy in sight but division admiral (Arbuthnot) refused to open fire without orders from the squadron admiral (Warrender) and the enemy vessel escaped in the low visibility.
The problem ultimately is that Leia and Holdo, if the intent was 'be ready to fight, but also ready to run', should have had the bombers deployed outside the system, ready to jump into the system the moment they were needed. The Star Fortresses, like most Resistance fighters, have hyperdrives and could have done so. This way they could have jumped and surprised the first Order quickly, but also ready to run at a moments notice as well. The fact that instead the bombers were deployed in such an aggressive position means that the intent, all along, would be to engage the dreadnaught. Ignoring that though, the fault still lies with Leia and Holdo for not communicating their retreat order to the rest of the fighters and Star Fortresses after Poe refused Leia's order. There was no excuse for why they didn't do this, they simply didn't do it, and so every single resistance pilot who dies is because they didn't command Tallie in her A-wing to take over and pull everyone back. Even if we ignore THAT fact, Leia and Holdo again could have easily jumped the fleet out of the system as soon as the evacuation was done, and the fighters could then do a follow up jump as well to meet them at a rendezvous point. Because they don't do that, because they sit there and give the Dreadnaught time to aim at the Raddus, the bomber attack thus is absolutely necessary because otherwise the Raddus will be damaged or destroyed. So quite literally, the entirety of the battle is because Leia and Holdo not only didn't plan the fight properly, but continually were incompetent in how to handle Poe's disregard of their orders. We do see, in retrospect, that Poe makes the right call, but even barring that, the resistance pilots die because the ones actually in charge do nothing at all that would have spared their lives, and then blame Poe for what happens. Proving further their incompetence by not taking responsibility for their actions, something every competent officer is trained to do rather then shifting the blame onto others. But you are absolutely right about the fighter CAP on the Order side.
The movie deserves every bit of criticism it got and more along with the rest of the sequels. This isn't some independent art project people just stumbled upon and decided to hate. It's the soulless product of a multi-billion dollar corporation that bought the rights to a franchise they knew nothing about and handed it over to people that cared even less about it because they figured they'd make bank on it regardless.
The addition of the stuff from Battlefield really makes it silly, without it you could see it as Po's crazy plan.
Allegedly in the book the Dreadnought captain is an old Imperial officer who knows what he's doing but Hux wants to micromanage everything so won't allow him to launch fighters and pick his own targets.
A slight issue here. Leia doesn't call off Poe because the point-defense guns are destroyed. She recalls him because the evacuation was finished, where it wasn't before, and she wanted to retreat, because she knew that the bombers weren't well-suited for their mission.
They were only suited for combat against an enemy that couldn't shoot back. The First Order is not that enemy, so why waste lives crewing those deathtraps in the first place?
Darth Revan Because even though using the bombers carried a high risk of death, the alternative is certain death. War isn’t safe. You either fight and probably die, or you don’t fight and definitely die.
@@themetalstickman And that is why Leia and Holdo sound like such fools. They would all definitely die if the Dreadnought succeeded in firing its giant autocannons on the fleet (the Resistance's center of gravity). Poe prevented that from happening, even at the cost of the entire bomber fleet. That was true military leadership, not whatever the hell nonsense Leia was going on about. The bomber crew were all dead anyway (due to the gross incompetence of whoever was in charge of the Resistance's procurement). At least Poe made sure they died doing something that mattered.
@@darthrevan1281 The only reason the Resistance was still on-field when the dreadnought's cannons recharged was because Poe refused to retreat. Had he retreated when ordered, the Resistance fleet would have escaped long before then. Granted, they would have been destroyed later because of the First Order's hyperspace tracking, but that wasn't intel the Resistance had. My point is that Poe made a tactical error for the intel that he had, and Leia cannot be blamed for intel she didn't have.
Actually, the same kind of analysis can be easily applied to the rest of the film.
Both the villains and the heroes are equally incompetent, plot devices are everywhere, the main conflict has little to no sense.
I think everyone should stop arguing on "TLJ controversy", "fandom split" and admit that this has been just a terrible, terrible movie
Artem Maltsev. Try telling that to Dysney
@@redshirt5126 more Lucas Films than Disney, from what I have heard, Disney would love to sack that dumb bitch who is at the reigns of star wars, but they cant find a replacement
They could have simply deleted the entire b and c plots with Holdo, Leia, Finn, and Rose and we’d be left with a much more satisfying (if shorter) movie about mortality, failure, regret, and living up to one’s own legend.
@Rising Horizon Gaming
"there has never been a good star wars movie"
Empire Strikes Back says hi...
@Rising Horizon Gaming
Opinion or not... It sounds like you're smoking.
In my opinion, there's an even simpler fix. All you have to do is move the bit of dialogue where Leia tells Poe to retreat. Instead of telling him to come back after he's blown up the gun turrets, this should come later, once the bomber assault is already underway. Leia see's they're taking too many losses and calls a retreat. Poe cockily things he can do it anyway. He goes against her orders, lots of people die, and he get demoted. Easy.
Although I admit it makes him significantly less endearing than your trying to save the other ship idea.
9:32 "There are parts of that film that I really, really do enjoy..."
Me, too. The end credits, for example.
Turned into a joke character? I mean... what'd you *honestly* expect from a Weasley?
bloody hell mate
I'm surprised that they didn't make his character turn into a werewolf, or get involved with a human looking droid that used to belong to poe (ex-machina reference). Would have made as much sense as the rest of the movie really.
To be honest, I think all characters were either turned into or are joke characters in that movie, well, all beside Admiral Ackbar and the latter only because he really didn't get to do a lot.
@@DeathBYDesign666 I want to see the Daleks be a race that exists in the SW universe now for some random reason.
@imglidinhere Have we spoken before? I have talked about that about 6 months or so back and I think it was on this channel actually. Were you on that thread?
I was under the impression that the captain of the dreadnought was under strict orders to NOT launch fighters. He was probably the most intelligent officer in the film as he disobeyed these orders in a nearly successful attempt to save his ships. As for choice of targets, the dreadnought was ordered to destroy the base, while the other ships SAT STILL AND DID NOTHING except laugh at Hux for the strange call.
As for leia, she was portrayed as an idiot by calling back bombers and fighters ALREADY ON THEIR ATTACK RUN! at that point, they will either complete their objective or not, but calling them back ENSURES heavy casualties and no objective achieved.
Love your videos mate. Started seeing them with the Babylon 5 series of ships and I stuck. Keep making them
What if the bomber hyperdrive into the dreadnought
Could've probably saved everyone.
What about how a SINGLE fighter have managed to gun down ALL of CAPITAL ships Point defence? While evading its escorts...all of them. We know SW has a history of shitty ship/station plannings, but that's a whole new level. Po isn't even force sensitive or a Chosen One like Anakin was, so wtf?
What's exactly stopping Rebels from forgoing bombers completely and just gunning down capitals with X-Wings? Its not like they have shields or something...
The bomber design is also something to behold...a *ucking carpet bombing in SPAAAAAAAACE! The hell happened with Y-wings?
At least rebels make good use of their capital ships...by ramming them into the enemy.
He played a lot of Ace Combat
Y-wings by this time are outdated, and Probably very hard to find.
@@zkapsh Y and X wing are of same generation, so that doesn't make much sense. Also, if those are "up-to date" bombers they have, I'd take Y-wing over it any day.
In SW world they routinely use ships of old design. New Order still uses outdated TIE series ships.
You would definitely expect newer bombers to be more efficient. Common sense is sidelined by plot. Shame.
@@LOTRFAN33 tbh I'd be good if there were at least not the most stupid designs in SW...and that's an achievement given what stuff existed in EU. They have god damn bomb armament exposed 360 degrees and don't have ANY shields. They do good look exploding tho, which is probably not a bug but a feature.
But hey, there's one more episode of the sequels and who knows how many other movies. They still have a chance to outdo themselves. Bi-plan starship, anyone?
If the dreadnought wasn't taken out, the First Order would have used it when they found the Resistance and destroyed them.
Exactly this, better punish the man who "recklessly" lost a few men saving the entire fleet... lol
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled To be fair they didnt know they were going to be followed, plus the longer they stayed around to destroy the dreadnought the higher the chance its gun recharges and destorys their capital ship.
@@KorporateKotoo Yeah but conversely the capitals could have jumped at ANY POINT because as mentioned in the video both resistance subcapitals on the field have hyperdrives and the Raddus wasn't really doing anything anyways soooo....
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled Not what I thought. It was the right thing to do, Poe shouldn't have been punished. Leia should have seen the bigger picture. Poe saved them.
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled Didnt he just finish charging the main cannon right before the ship blew up?
You are spot on in your assessment of the lack of CAP. Can you imagine what Bill Adama would have said if Galactica didn't have Vipers airborne within seconds of coming out of an FTL jump?
How to win as the First Order:
1) Put the two Resurgences forward of the Dreadnought
2) Launch ALL of your TIEs
3) Sit back and crack open a bottle of beer as you watch the massacre!
I agree with you about the opening battle. I have a habit of writing "How I would Have Done this Movie" thought experiments and for this movie I also think that the portrayal of Poe was off. Since my HIWHDTM is to long for a comment section, and I don't want to start a comment war here, I'm going to post it on the Space Dock Patreon page. I just want to see what you think of my ideas
Most of the film felt directionless. Right out of the gate, this battle sequence seemed to fill no strategic purpose other than to blow some stuff up.
That's Star Wars for you.
Always entertaining!
Really good one
6:14 LOL
Poe: bruh.
I think the battle should have been fought after the first jump. Then you could have Poe leads the assault.
If I was at the helm of a Star Wars film, I would SO involve channels like yours to design and script a space battle that makes as much logical sense as possible while still being fun to watch.
What's wrong with making an entertaining film that ALSO can resist against nitpicking? I see it an an absolute success.
4:44 even JJagoff Abrams did it better with the first act of “Into Darkness”
Devil's Advocate: The First Order didn't realize that the planet's base was empty when they fired on it, and the Resistance didn't realize just how many ships the First Order were going to bring or that they were going to bring the Mega-class Star Destroyer (I haven't read the book or played the game). Though this still has the plot hole of why Leia didn't tell Poe to leave as soon his call with Hux had ended, which would have happened before he finished destroying the point defense on the dreadnought.
Besides, I don't see why Episode IX couldn't state that the plan wasn't Poe's idea and that Leia wasn't ever fond of it to begin with (I haven't read the EU material, so I don't know if they definitively stated who created the plan). Now if they _will_ do this is another matter entirely.
Spacedock it's ok to not like the Last Jedi you don't need to apologize for it just because it is a Star Wars film.
One thing of note. At 4:00, you mention that taking down the dreadnought wouldn’t have mattered, as there are likely thousands of ships in the FO’s navy. It should be remembered that, despite how it acted, this was a dreadnought, which means that it was not only a likely fleet centrepoint, meaning that taking it down would probably disrupt the fleet composition, they were much rarer than standard battleships, so there were probably only a handful of them in the entire First Order. Additionally, the destruction of a dreadnought would be a significant blow to morale.
Do I think Rian Johnson thought of any of this? No, absolutely not. Am I making up excuses? Yes. But it should be remembered that a dreadnought is a far more significant loss than what you make it out to be.
Anyway I always enjoy your videos Danny keep up the good work.
I think it's worth noting that Poe was out there for two reasons. Setting up for the bombing option was one, but the primary reason was that he was stalling.
One fighter cannot stall a cruiser or bigger...
We don't know why Leia abandoned her original plan, perhaps the evacuation was simply carried out faster than anticipated, maybe it was just a whim (unlikely), but, she's the general and it is not up to individual commanders to override orders from the top. The plan is always the first casualty in battle, and Poe could not justify disobeying a direct order just because it went against the original plan. If Poe had followed orders, the bomber fleet and escorts would have been saved (at least until the flight deck was conveniently destroyed) at the cost of a single First Order ship remaining intact. Poe was absolutely wrong, and should have been locked up, not just demoted.
He was wrong in disobeying an order but Leia was wrong in giving said order and when she didn't recall the the bomber fleet, she made that her problem. Unfortunately Leia's character was also a casualty of TLJ.
You forgot the Janissaries hired to perform cleaning up duties afterwards, those refreshers aren't going to flush themselves clean
Maybe General Hux being little more than a slapstick fall guy has something to do with his past as a Weasley twin...
He wasn't a Weasley twin, he was one of their older brothers.
Those damn bombers are just so useless. Why bother destroying the point defenses if the bombers are wrapped in tissue paper for armor. You know it's bad when Tie's are able to shred them, arguably the worst fighter class ever.
Not the New Order TIEs they have shields more powerful guns and the Spec Ops two seater has hyperdrive as well.
@Rising Horizon Gaming The B-17s were at least durable and could take more than a few shots to take down. And even still, the survival rate of B-17s was far higher than that of Starfortresses.
@@ShadeSlayer1911 add to that that B-17s were covered by many fighters AND had guns pointing out of almost every hole their crews could find. These level bombers had 2 twin turrets! that is not enough to provide adequate firing arcs to protect the formation.
There also seemed to be too few fighters providing cover. In WW2, 4 planes could cover 20+ as the germans would only be able to send up a small number. At best, there were equal numbers of attackers and defenders. The first order sent more that twice the number of fighters as there were bombers and your telling me that the resistance could provide coverage for those big slow flying coffins! HELL NO! not only were the characters all incompetent, the writers and producers were too.
@Rising Horizon Gaming That's becouse Germans had exellent fighters. And no, B17 weren't anihilating everything. Take the Battle of Coral sea. when B17 based in Australia attacked the approaching Port Moresby invasion forces several times during the day on 6 May without success.
To be fair of the B-17 performance in Naval combat... high level bombing of Naval targets that were underway had a pretty abysmal success rate. Many pilots found that the success rate of skip bombing justified "skip-bombing" in the face of the additional risks that were associated with it.
Well, remember that EA’s additional background was retconned.
They saw battlefront 2 story and was like this is pretty s*** I don't think you can do any worse than this and the writers were like I take that as a challenge
Suggestion: Leia cancelled the attack on the dreadnought because it wasted it's one salvo on the ground base and they could all just leave.... it makes more sense then anything else in the movie.
Just so happy you decided to join the rest of us Mr. dock.
Don't apologize. The Last Jedi was the first movie I ever walked out of, I can't get enough of these critiques. Inject it straight into my veins.
"Whe you have to read expanded material to understand a moive..you made abad movie"
EXACTLY!!!
Daniel I'll praise you for trying to fly above the general mud-slinging, yet still objectively analyzing a popular topic however controversial. I'm glad to see you agree with a lot of us, whether or not frothing at the mouth is involved.
The Last Jedi proved that Rian Johnson, Lawrence Kasden, and the leadership of Lucasfilm do not know how war works.
Rose: That's how we're gonna win. Not by fighting what we hate. But saving what we love.
Han Solo: THAT'S NOT HOW WAR WORKS!
I agree that this battle hardly makes any sense - however, I'd like to defend Canady here for a moment!
In the "TLJ: Expanded Edition" book it is clearly stated that it was Hux who ordered the FO capital ships to not launch any fighters. Canady actually had to argue with his second-in-command (!) to even get them prepped for launch (perhaps the whole bombing run would have succeeded if it wasn't for him). That is why he angrily comments on-screen on the fighters not being deployed.
It's great that you have found some ways to slightly modify the plot in order for it to make sense. I was reasoning a bit differently: Perhaps Leia's plan involved the StarFortress bombers only if the base was not evacuated in time. Canady destroyed the base only moments after it was emptied, Poe executed the first part of the plan, and in the meantime, all the transports landed on the Raddus. Leia figured that the second part of the plan was no longer necessary (as you said in the Short: what difference would one ship make?), but Poe wanted to blow up the Fulminatrix anyway.
Aaand about waiting for the fighters to land in the hangar: it seems more reasonable if we take the fuel into consideration. The Resistance was low on fuel, so maybe the fighters were drained.
*just some desperate tries to justify TLJ's plotholes*
Honestly, it seems a bit hard to find something reasonable from this film in terms of strategy and/or tactics.
The whole transport scene made me expect Holdo would perform a Ragnar Anchorage.
I was wrong.
The incompetence of both the resistance and the first order are just plain staggering.
I find talking about TLJ hard because I really did hate it, but there are those really toxic parts of the fandom that have given everyone who didn't like the movie a bad name, it's disapointing
Those are hate fanatics. Most of them haven't even seen the original trilogy on anything but the added content DVD/Blue ray releases.
Actually, the media have been smearing Star Wars fans who hated the movie. There really isn't a toxic part of the fandom as far as I've seen.
Of the new movies, only rouge one made any sense. Sure they lost a load of ships getting the death Star plans but the cost benefit easily made the cost worth the losses. One can even excuse the star destroyers under preformence as simply not expecting an engagement.
I really disliked episode IV redux (or VII as the title insists) because it was a mediocre copy, that didn't really make sense.
I enjoyed more about episode IIX overall as it was at least original... But very flawed. Like everything to do with tactical decisions, and good lord failing to inform your staff officers of your plans was an obscene contrivance that, predictably resulted in a mutiny.
Kylo Ren was one of the best things about that movie, but the kinda ruined it by arguing that the Jedi and sith are the problem equally, then just doing a 180 on the whole thing. Resulting basically no change in character or world development.
And what is it with makeing the vilian comically useless?
*Sigh*
FYI: the Roman Numeral for 8 is VIII, not "IIX."
Also, the entire plot of Rogue One contracts everything from Ep.IV (The Original Movie), from the crawl, through the intro, and right up to "the Rebellion may be dangerous to *your* Starfleet, commander …," despite taking place immediately prior.
You did go to school right? So you know it's VIII and not IIX
I really like the 'Poe tries to save a disabled ship and loses the bombers story idea'. Wish they would've done that in the movie.
I will say this, I found this battle to be silly as well. However, the book expressed how General Hux apparently had total control & basically made it clear he wanted to kill off the Resistance in a theatrical way with the admirals disapproving. That was interesting, but your argument is still very valid.