Can you spot the difference?
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2023
- The eternal debate rages on--will you get a better quality surface from a hand plane or a sander? My opinion: yes.
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The answer to the question, St least in part, is this; if it feels good to the hand, and looks good to the eye, then it is right. How you get there, sanding or planing, is up to the maker and the look and feel they are going for. Once in a while you may even want the tool marks from the saws, planers and jointers to be visable. And that is okay too.
If there was a comment that embodied the philosophy of this channel, this is it. How you get there is up to you. So long as the results are good, take the path most enjoyable.
There is no wrong answer. There is only make.
@@ENCurtisTruth. Key words here are looking and feeling good. If a method holds you back, always remember, you have options.
@@flowleopard893 1000% 👊
The question for you US people is/will be: DeSantis or not DeSantis?
@goofycker This has not one thing to do with this post nor this video. So why is it here?
I am subbed to several other woodworking channels but yours is the only one I have rung the bell for. I came for the woodworking but stayed for everything else.
Thank you so much!
Man you deserve so many more subscribers. You're extremely encouraging and inspiring.
Thank you so much 🙂 They'll come with time. Can't focus on what you can't control!
Off topic but related: People have been so dismissive about sandpaper that it’s sometimes even being ignored or forgotten as an option: at some point last year I saw a video about shooting boards, and the guy said he would prefer a shooting board with a fixed fence, but he doesn’t have a shoulder plane to square the fence up. I went “Just glue some sandpaper to a flat, square, straight piece of wood and sand the fence into square” - lightbulb moment. We sometimes don’t see the forest for the trees.
Sandpaper is the ugly stepchild of the hand tool woodworking community, but that’s undeserved. It’s a brilliant invention.
It may be one of the most underrated inventions of the 20th century. Sure, there were variations of it before that, but it's truly a game changer.
As a beginner, I catch myself internalizing other people’s rules like “never sand after planing”. This can have a paralyzing effect when you’re just trying to figure things out and make stuff.
This channel is a great resource!
If your otherwise consistent wood type is getting threaded, you have knicks on your blade. Probably silica or impurities from the knots taking chips off the edge. Totally agree with you about doing what works, but hand tools makes you feel "connected". What people dont realize is that hand tools can in fact be very very very fast, especially for one of projects.
I dont know to many people ho actually like going through the process of sanding....me included.....but you dont have to ask far to find their are droves of people who love hand planning....its such a zen experience and gives, to me at least a far more gratifying feeling after getting it the ay you want....just something about sizing up a peice....checking the angles andputting your own touch to it.....just cant get that same feedback from a screaming machine thats shaking my entire body lol
That zen experience is what we're all hoping to find in the creative process, I think. Plane away my dude 👊
I have found that using a hand plane can save you a ton of time in sanding. If there are a lot of machine marks or marks in the wood and you have to start at 80 grit it’s going to take forever. If you start with a plane you can jump straight to 220grit or just finish it
I tend to lean towards hand planes simply for the satisfaction of mastering the art, and less dust. I don’t know if one is actually better than the other, I just know what makes me tic.
I probably over due it, but i sand to 400 grit before i even spray my poly and then 1000 in steps to 10,000..... but now I'm starting to not really like it. People are blown away when they see it in real life but its starting to look too "plastically" I recently took a live edge piece of spalted cherry and completely sanded the poly off of it , then sanded it back up to 10,000 grit did BLO and then paste wax after curing...... really loved the warm and tactile look and feel . I have a number of antique wood, transition and metal planes I'm restoring for use and will experiment with just using them as well. Great videos and content , just subscribed . would have shared pics but no idea how lol !
Mr. Prius man another very informative video. Thank you Erik your for explaining the different ways of wood prep. I learned from my uncle, who NEVER sanded. Hand planes, spoke shaves, and card scrapers were what I was taught. Now that I am as old as some of the planes, I use sanders more often. Great video from a true master woodworker. Semper Fi brother.
Maybe a planed surface would work well as long as it's narrower than the width of the planing blade so there is little chance of planing marks? IDK , just a thought.
That's a good thought, but the plane marks were not a result of the edge of the plane blade digging in--at least in this instance. It was a result of the minor knots damaging the middle of the blade create inconsistencies in the cutting edge.
That music was great...thought you were gonna build a Saloon Door lol
😂 considered it
Thank you for this video. I am just getting started in woodworking and ran across this huge debate about sanding verses planing and it was hard to wade through. It was good to see an actual comparison.
Another great explanation. I use my hand plane in my pieces specifically because of your explanations. It made me feel comfortable trying it and I’m so glad I did.
Saturday doesn’t start until after I’ve watched your videos while enjoying my morning coffee. Thanks for the outstanding videos and the way you explain them. Excited to get out into the garage/shop and get to making something!
Ah man thank you! That one made me smile. Go crush it today!
As someone with a 9 month UA-cam woodworking university certificate, the biggest eye opened was about the silica content in the wood. I was trying to figure out how one side of a board would plane like butter, while the other one doesn't come out right no matter what I yet to do. I thought maybe my plane wasn't sharp enough, but I've been making dull things sharp for over 30 years, and still couldn't figure it out. Maybe it's not just me.
@ENCurtis may want to check this one before it gets out of hand.
If you want a "hand planed" look, go wild, and go up to 0000 steel wool, and get a burnish on the board. It will not take as much finish if you want a super deep, penetrating finish, but you get an almost film sheen look, with just oil. You get that reflection look, and for people like me, who like idiot proof BLO finishes for things that aren't needing tons of protection, it's the best of both worlds, looks wise - imo, but also more time consuming. I go 150, 180, 220, 320, 400, 0000 steel wool on things like small boxes. On a table, forget about it, that's way too much work, but for small pieces, it's a nice balance.
My two hobbies are woodworking and golf, and they’re both an evolutionary journey. I am far more evolved as a golfer and along the way arrived at the conclusion that I must “swing MY swing”. I can’t swing like anyone else. I sense my woodworking evolution will be similar, so I expose myself to a variety of YT channels with varying techniques and let it all soak in. To sand or plane? I haven’t even evolved to that point, yet. Still learning to sand. But, I am beginning to sense the organic attraction of hand tools. Great channel, great video. Many thanks.
My grandfather who was a lifelong furniture maker used to say that sanding was used to hide the sins of the woodworker. So I asked him if he ever sanded any of his work, and he said; and I quote, "every woodworker sins, but if you're a good woodworker; you are the only one who ever knows" let's all ponder that for a moment.
Part of 'which one works best' is determined by what finish you use. For paint grade, 150 grit max. Paint is more pigment and less binder, so too smooth of a surface doesn't provide enough surface roughness for the paint to stick. I used to have a precatalized lacquer sprayed on my furniture pieces. The people who did it said not beyond 220. Again, beyond a certain 'fineness' and the finish won't stick well. People viewing my pieces would say 'wow, they must have taken that up above 600 grit'. I would expect that to hold fairly true for any surface finish. For an applied oil that penetrates and soaks in, I would think you could go as high as you want, and/or a hand planed surface.
The flames in that wood stand out more with the hand planed surface more than the sanding but both are beautiful.
I simply love your videos. I watch them on Sunday morning as sort of a meditation.
My son is following woodworking at school. I can only dream of a teacher like you for him.
Me, I'm a DYIer with focus on building and maintaining our house. Lately my focus is schifting to woodworking partly by the inspiration you and other UA-cam woodworkers give me.
I like the text pop-ups but as I'm not natively seeking English most of the time I'm not fast enough to read them. I go back a few times irritating my family members in the process. 😊
Went to buy a mug but looks like you're getting them all!😊 David, more mugs please!!
I'll let him know!!
I had the same Issue!
Great video, I really appreciate the time you take to explore ideas and explain.
Thanks as always, Jeff 🙏
Thank you for posting this video. I have long wondered what the answer to this question was and had been on Team Handplane for the same reasons you like using one. But I learned that using both is a great way to finish and I learned that not sanding could be the artistic choice that really elevates a piece. Awesome!!
I was taught to use a cabinet scraper to minimize tear out (planing) and raising the grain (sandpaper)
Hand planes makes me feel good ,love the new mug.
I really enjoy your very holistic approach to woodwork. You discussed the feeling of using the hand plane, without the earbuds and dust collection. This struck a chord with me. For me woodworking is an experience to be lived. When a thing pops out at the end, well that’s just a bonus. Keep up the excellent work!
I find that I use both depending on the finish and the use of the finished product. I also like to plane because it doesn't irritate my tinnitus. But really who cares as long as it looks good. The people who see the finished product won't know how it was done, just that it is good. The only one who knows the process and any minor imperfections is you as the creator. If you are satisfied with the work, then that is what matters in the end.
Great video! As a disabled woodworker using hand planes is a massive feat and using a sander is so much easier in my circumstances, however i do enjoy using a hand plane every now and again on smaller pieces for the enjoy of using them
Of all the woodworking videos I watch yours are the most motivating, thank you.
Love to hear that. Thank you for the kind words.
Great video, man I really enjoy your topics, content, and positivity
Great comparison, great discussion, great new mug.
Thank You, David ! Keep Making!
You always make me smile….😊. Thanks for the lesson, I can see a mug cabinet in the future 😊
I think it all comes down to what floats your boat but me personally I like to plane way more than sanding. Cheers fella I always love your chats and your new killer mug
I'm with you 100% my guy 👊
Thank you so much for making this video. I am just trying to get started woodworking and getting my very first tools to start making stuff and this is incredibly helpful. Thnak you so much for what you are doing!
Thank you!!! and love the mug by the way!!
Thanks for watching! And man I couldn't possibly be more enthralled with that new mug!
I really like a sort of burnished waxed fell that a plane leaves, and I’ve never got that from sanding, unless I keep going til nauseum into 400 grit, and then I still like the plane better
I appreciate the reality of your videos. It's not what other people think about your work, but it is how satisfying your work is to you. Of course, you want to make something great for the customer, but you have to enjoy your process.
Well i don't have electric jointer/planer, so only hand planes, but i do worry a little (not much experience) about finish adhesion so i always use sandpaper in the end. If there is no tearout then i quickly use say 240 grit by hand and that's it. Much better than lot of disc grit changes, dust all over , wearing a mask with random orbital sander
A fair concern, and the best way to avoid any issues is to do exactly that. A light sand with a little 240 will do just fine.
As a man new to this craft (hobby), I really appreciate your videos. Thank you.
OUTSTANDING Video!!!
Thanks for being the sage, and not the shill. Your peaceful teaching is zen like, and a joy to listen to. The choice of music is very fitting. Would you tell me who it is? Your "be humble " shirt says so much I had to buy it. Thank you.
That finish the little green ets-ec 3mm stroke gives , is absolutely sublime.
Guaranteed to rub people up the wrong way 😄
Oh it's far and away the best sander I've used. Let the haters hate 😂
@@ENCurtis is there really a difference between the 3mm and 5mm stroke in terms of final quality? I can’t tell between the 2. I have both.
@@crashkg I don’t own both so I can’t give ab answer based on experience, but I would guess that it would matter only in a very few instances. With a high polish pass on a film building finish, for example. In that case I think the 3mm would be beneficial, which is why I bought that one. But for most operations I think they are largely interchangeable. Again, I am saying that out of speculation, not experience.
Thank you this is a really good example,
Well dude another great vid thanks, take it easy out there, see you on the next one
Didn't read through all the comments, but seems to me you guys may need a bit more technical minutia. sanding, especially the bigger the grit gets, leaves a surface that is as rough as the grit. This rough surface scatters the photons that bounce off the surface so that some very attractive visual characteristics of especially very figured surfaces are masked over or made cloudy. A surface that is struck with a metal edge is burnished and smoothed at a level only the very finest of sandpapers may achieve. Then it's the figuring in the grain that does the light scattering and that's when you get the fish scaly, prismatic effects that are achievable depending on the species and cut of the wood. I once hand scraped an entire quarter sawn oak floor in a living room as I was trying not to make dust and noise with a drum sander or the like. The result was amazing! The floor seemed to radiate colors and tones at you as you moved around and angles of reflections changed.
Keep in mind the drawback that film forming finishes will tend to have poor adhesion over burnished surfaces as mechanical bond is diminished. And water based finishes will raise the grain of a burnished surface (as they will a sanded surface) diminishing some of the visual effect.
Love the “Office Space” clip. We’ve all been there right? 😆
We've all been there more times than we care to admit 😂
I've put my back out so my personal dilemma is whether 'to stand or not to stand'
Ahhhh. The mugs!!!!
Also, the planed surface is vastly superior. It is better for finish? I don't know.
Awesome mug 👌
Thank you for all your time and effort. Still like mug number 1 !!
Seriously love the t-shirt. Have a good one
Looking at the edge of the boards it definitely looks like the sanded board absorbed more finish. I think the Wood Whisperer did a test where he tested different methods of applying finish and the one that got deeper into the board had better protection after curing. That being said I love the feel of the wood after the smoothing plane more than the sandpaper.
I believe he also tested sanding vs planing and the grain on sanded boards was a little more "muddy" then planed boards.
I think it's likely the sanded surface does absorb a little more finish given how the grain is opened by the sanding process, but it's still a useful tool to have in the kit.
One of my teachers during my woodworking journey is a master at hand plane finishing. He said that the bark side of wood always planes better than the heart side. And looking at your grain orientation that seems to be true in this case, although I'm still not sure why this is.
Thanks Erik
Thank you, Don!
At last, the video to finish the controversy! Actually the answer to most heated debates is "Eh?", but that's not as much fun as engaging caps lock. In the immortal words words of that other bard, don't worry, be happy.
Wise words of the day: the answer to most heated debates is "Eh?" 🤘
I love the vids and have been binge watching them all week. Question: What is the cloth you have on your bench when using the sander?
My question is, are you removing more material with a plane than with a sander? Also, what about a cabinet scraper as the final finishing process? Thanks, you're a fantastic teacher!
Cool. As I suck in surface planing (planing is for dimensions only...) this is good news. Very good news.
Love the The Shining thumbnail!
Well done. For me, I work with hand tools so everything gets a hand planed surface. As such, I stop there and don't sand unless there is an issue that the handplane or card scraper can't fix. I know Egyptians had sand paper so it's been around a for a while. I just don't feel the need to do more work than I already have. If you are looking for another topic, I've heard of folks in days of yore using pieces of broken glass to finish the wood. Never tried it myself. I would happily watch a video about it from you if you are searching for new content.
thank you
The lustre appears more on the planed one
Starting at 180 is something new to me as of watching this video. I would swear it's gospel and in stone somewhere that you need to work "work through all the grits" 80, 120, 150,180 and then maybe up to 220. I'm relatively new to woodworking and mostly self/UA-cam taught. Now I've got to go do some of my own testing. Whether you intend it or not, I often feel challenged by your videos, sometime uncomfortably and I keep coming back because I appreciate that and the growth that comes from it.
If I'm sanding, I start at 40 or 60 grit and move through all the grits ending at 150 or 180 for painted surfaces 220 to 320 for film forming finishes and higher for penetrating or reactivating finishes like laquer, shellac or wax or oil.
"there's no right answer, there's only make" should be a T-shirt
I love to do a purely planed surfice, but I always get streakes. Now I have gotten better with less streakes but heavent tested on a piece of furniture. Normaly I plane and after sand lightly with 400 grit. And aply wax with 0000 steel wool or a verry light scotchbright pad. That surfice is then perfect
I always have the intent to hand plane only but alas I always seem to break out the paper. Maybe one day when my confidence grows and I turn into a big boy. Love the video, thanks brother. Also getting a cool Firefly vibe from the score. Love it!
What's a Tele-gram? Looks kinda sus tbh
Great video
thanks
Divisive and green, you use a Ryobi ros?😜 You’re seriously inspiring Eric. I’m going to incorporate hand planing into my pieces because of your work. Thanks for the inspiration brother.
I'm really glad you mentioned how you can struggle with a board only on one side. That happens to me all the time! I normally plane, scrape, then sand to blend the two surfaces. Do you use a cabinet or card scraper?
Because I typically only do hobby DIY stuff, I'd never had use of a planer because I never usually worked with anything but dressed timber from the big box store. And I don't have a workspace big enough to brace properly to do planing anyway. So I just sanded. But recently started doing some more detailed work, including resawing to get custom thicknesses, and decided to give Japanese block planes a go (The pulling action works better on my tiny workbench, because I can brace the bench against my body as I pull). And it's a game changer! I wished I'd learned to plane years ago! But's it's not ideal for everything, and I still sand as a final step. It's just a good tool and skill to have!
Like you, I do woodworking as a hobby/stress relief and started hand planing because I don’t have room for a power planer. This was a really struggle at times depending on the wood but my sharpening started getting better and suddenly the planing got easier.
Never give up, never surrender.
@@johnjudispicer7175it’s kind of cathartic, isn’t it? Since learning how to plane, I can’t imagine not having a planer. I use it for flattening, chamfering, shaping. I used to think the sharpening and adjusting would be more trouble than it was worth, but yeah, once you learn to sharpen and make blade adjustments, it goes fast.
As a woodworker for more years than I care to count these days and one who has never been able to get a plane to work properly to save my life, I have always sanded all my projects. That being shamefully admitted, I know when a project is requested or requires the application of a dye or stain, the way the wood takes the stain or dye is dramatically different with the different grits i.e. sanding to 100 grit the color will be MUCH darker than is sanded to 220 grit or lower, especially on figured maple. It may be my old eyes on the computer screen but it was hard to tell with the top coat finish you chose in the video. I would be curious as to how it would take on a strictly planed surface. Given how the pores may close on the planed surface I can imagine it would be on the level of the finer grits of sanding though. Just a curious mind musing as I raise a cup of coffee with you.
As a hand tool enthusiast, at around 8 minutes 50 seconds you pointed out the difference in shavings. You needed to sharpen that blade. One thing I've learned is that the more frequently I sharpen, the less I sharpen
But like you said - I plane every surface of every piece. Then I give it a few quick swipes with 220-240 grit sandpaper to give the wood a little tooth in order to accept the finish
I agree with sharpening more frequently actually is less work. I actually think of it as a fine honing versus sharpening. You take off far less material from the blade with frequent sharpening and spend more time making a thing
Just watched this video and I have to say I sand my pieces then I use a card scraper to help make a smoother surface
What did you apply to the wood?
I just started the video and already liked it because NEW MUG 🎉
It's got a beard 🧔🤣🤣🤣🤣
Using a plane can be best for some situations, but not others. Still loving the beard and great to see that your new cup is a better reflection of you - a beard and not one eyed.
The absolute most important part of this video: do what works for you.
I love it! Use a hand plane, sand, do both... absolutely. Do what works for you and for your project. Too many people set arbitrary rules with which to judge others and their work.
Thank you sir, well made.
?
Hay Eric do you have a video of that pop up stop block in your table ?
I've got a finish question. I've been told that a water based finish can have a reaction with hand oils so it's not good for high traffic items. I make dice trays for ttrpg's. I have some Birch and Maple I want to start using, but I want to keep it as bright as possible, but I don't want to use a water based finish if the finish will go bad after a couple long dnd sessions. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Love the videos!
Great content. I wish you could have tested a super surfacer...but alas...we can't get them on this continent...lol.
The answer is clearly "Eh?" because if it was definitive then the debate wouldn't rage on over the decades. Especially in a connected global modern culture. We would coalesce on the clearly superior answers if they existed on this topic.
The hand plane most definitely leaves a better finish on raw wood, which I assume is where the argument comes from. It becomes shimmery and glasslike. But once you apply finish the results aren't that different. And there will always be a place for sanding because difficult grain is typically the most beautiful. Scraping isn't as fool proof as people say (you absolutely can tear out, especially softwood) and at the end of the day, some surfaces need to be sanded into submission. Unless you want the most boring aesthetic of straight grained furniture, you're going to have to sand the most interesting pieces. (at least the faces of them). 16k blade, high angle, cap iron 1/100 of an inch from the edge, throat so closed you can barely see light. There is only so much you can do, and it's not always enough.
That being said, I would rather not sand, because dust sucks and it's time consuming and boring. Planing is a joy and romantic and quiet and if tear out didn't exist then I would throw the sander in the trash immediately.
All fair points! Some people do enjoy the sanding process, but for you and I the plane is the way to go 👊
awesome music by the way
Thank you 👊
Did you try a cabinet scraper?
No to pieces of wood can be identical… It is just an impossibilty. However they can be very similar… but it just doesn’t make them identical. Book matched top on guitars are very common, but working on/with them you quickly realize that, despite the fact that they are split from the same piece, they do differ… Just the fact that they are reversed (up is down and vice versa on the pieces), makes them very different from each other. And the grain (pattern, hardness, imperfections, patches of ”strange” grain direction etc) will ALWAYS differ in two pieces of wood… And even book matched pieces does not have the a surfaces that was ”together” after planing and other ”adjustments”.
And in these differeces lies the beauty of the material 😇
What brand of sandpaper do you use on your random orbit sanders?
I have a corded Makita sander but use Diablo from Home Depot. Even with a shop vac connected I still get minor swirls. Tried moving slowly but still get them. Starting to think a better quality sandpaper would help.
Jonathan Katz-Moses and Stump Nubs have both done sandpaper tests in the past couple of years, and there is a HUGE difference in its quality of finish and the durability of the paper. I now use 3M Cubitron sandpaper for all my random orbital sanding.
Where do we get his mugs? Nothing at that link.
Wel, so tat is a definte maybe? Cool. Question, what cabinet saw do you use?
There are polishing planes, you know.
Since you are going down the road of existentialism in hand planing versus sanding, what are your thoughts on round dog holes versus square ones? I'm building my first work bench and I am at an impasse.
Neither - they are not necessary
I am a bit of a unicorn. I enjoy some time hand sanding! I might start with an orbit or finish sander, but I like the result I get when my last pass is by hand. Time consuming and tiring, yes. SATISFYING. I love your videos.
bearded zombie mug > blue cyclops mug
Thanks again Julien Lamarche I sand a lot ,you said to go only to 120grid I go to 220grid.
I'm I doing to high of a grid?
I love the look of a freshly planed surface, except that the sole of the plane on either side of the mouth burnishes part of the surface. AFAIK, this burnishing cannot be avoided and this surface variation (besides any blade imperfections) is unavoidable. So, I always end up with a light sanding after because I don't want those streaks. But, Erik, you do not mention this. Any thoughts? Anyone?
The area that looks lighter to you looks darker from camera position.
Erik, what is your sharpening process? UA-cam has experts out the wazoo and they're all equally the best way to do it. So, sensory overload. Based on your other processes, I don't imagine it's a complicated system. What do you do? Tormek? Sandpaper and float glass? A fieldstone from the yard?
Well, nevermind. UA-cam does it again. I just saw the sharpening comparison in the list on the right from a month ago. It's like the algorithm knew this question was going to come up...
The problem is that I’ve watched dozens of videos about planing wood and have tried for years but still can’t make it work well. And doesn’t it change the thickness of the material compared to sanding?