Drach- Could you do a segment about the ships the various Daimyo of Japan (Satsuma) or the Shogunate built/purchased prior to the Meiji restoration? I seem to remember reading that the Shogunate purchased from the British and Satsuma from the Dutch. Is this accurate?
BT3 Bryant advance boiler technician U.S.S. Gridley CG-21 here. I couldn’t believe it when we pulled into port in Hawaii in 1984 and there was a Japanese destroyer there. Progress. I’m sure glad they’re on our side, as well as the Germans and their wonderful submarine technology I.e. non-magnetic hulls etc. We are not targets or victims. We’re volunteers. Stay safe people. Thanks Drach.
That really wasn’t the problem with Satsuma. The Japanese wanted to build her as a dreadnought, they just ran out of money to do so. She was done in because she wasn’t built the way she was designed, not because the idea behind her became obsolete before she was commissioned.
The Lord Nelson were made obsolete while still on the slipways. Labour and materials that were supposed to be used for the Lord Nelson’s were shifted over to Dreadnaught to get her launched quicker.
To everyone joking about the ship being named after an orange. It wasn't. both this ship and the orange were named after the old Satsuma province on the island of Kyushu in southern Japan.
And on top of that (at least to the best of my knowledge), that fruit isn't even called a "satsuma" in Japan. That's 100% an English language thing. In Japan it's called a "mikan," while the word "satsuma" (or "satsuma imo") refers to a kind of sweet potato.
In Hindsight it might have been a Blessing that she was not the first all big gun Battleship. Just imagine an alternate timeline, in which we would have to talk about the "Satsuma Arms Race" Dreadnought just sounds better.
It would have been call the dreadnought race. The British at the time were the premiere shipwrights. Even if the South Carolina had made it out of the slipway and docks first pretty sure dreadnought would still have stolen the show. South Carolina actually had a better chance of beating Dreadnought out the sea 1st if Congress had not been money pinching the navy.
I dont think it would have made a difference like that, just would have became the battleship arms race, and, chances are that the western world wouldnt have acknowleged the japanese beat them to a new thing anyway
IJN ship designers: "We shall build the _Satsumas_ with a uniform 12"/45 main battery!" IJN ordnance officer: "Um, guys, we don't have enough 12"/45s to build even one of the _Satsumas_ like that..." IJN ship designers: "Fine, we'll give them each four 12"/45s and make up the difference with pairs of 10-inch guns." _A few years later:_ IJN ordnance officer: "Thank goodness we've finally got enough 12"/45s for a battleship class to use them for a uniform main battery..." IJN ship designers: "We shall build the _Kawachis_ with a uniform _12"/50_ main battery!" IJN ordnance officer: _"sigh"_
It seems to me that Japan's best choice for the Satsumas would've been similar to what Britain did to speed up Dreadnought's completion: swipe some turrets and guns from other, less important ships. Lord Nelson and Agamemnon didn't enter service until 2 years after Dreadnought, because their 12"/45 turrets were put on Dreadnought instead. This meant only 2 guns and 1 turret actually had to be built for Dreadnought, but afterward replacement guns and turrets had to be built for Lord Nelson and Agamemnon to be completed. Mikasa was given a rather extravagant refit from 1906-1908 that replaced her pair of 12"/40 turrets with 12"/45s. And 2 each of the Tsukuba- and Ibuki-class armoured cruisers and Katori-class battleships (all also armed with a pair of 12"/45 twin turrets) were still under construction at the time Satsuma was laid down (though some would soon be completed). If Japan had been willing to delay any of those ships until more 12"/45s could be built, that's a total of 14 turrets and 28 barrels to work with. Whereas completing Satsuma and Aki to their original design would only divert away 16 barrels and 4 turrets (the single turrets for the wing mounts would've still needed to be built from scratch).
@@RedXlV Alternatively, they could've completed the _Satsumas_ with the 10" wing guns as an interim solution and later regunned them with 12" wing turrets once enough guns became available. (Also, using guns and turrets originally meant for other ships to complete the _Satsumas_ as uniform-main-battery ships would've diverted 8 turrets and 24 barrels - remember that their amidships wing turrets would've been twins, not singles.)
I can't believe the IJN Satsuma isn't a super battleship based on a stretched yamato hull with 8 510mm main guns and 203mm secondary guns that can press a button and have the accuracy of modern missiles
You'd think that the powers that were would have armed the things entirely with a ten inch main battery. Spotting fall of shot must have been difficult.
Mind, the difference in hitting power between 12'' and 10'' guns was enough that you really wanted the 12'' guns to be sure of landing the lethal blows to the citadel. A 12'' shell is something like 300 pounds heavier on average and it is remarkable just how tough it was for even 12'' shells to get through battleships of the age. An all-10'' gun armament would greatly limit their ability to really fight other battleships. However, as you infer, it also meant that like all predreadnought battleships, Satsumas had the same problem of confusing aim by having competing falls of shot. However, they at least could be engaging more dreadnoughts at competitive ranges than most predreadnoughts that could never hope to get close enough to actually use most of their weapons.
In WW2 Japan had different colored dyes in each caliber of shell. The splashes of each caliber were tinted the same color. I reckon they did prior to that as well. See Drach's vid on the Battle Off Samar.
Great content, as always! Please consider making video about Estonian submarines Lembit and Kalev. Lembit (built in 1934) is still in existance and is now a museum ship in Tallinn.
This is one of those amazing ships like the original HMS, Hermes, Britain’s first purpose built aircraft carrier. Perhaps not the most illustrious careers, but very definitive in the future of modern navies. Hell, if USS Ranger got a video of its own, the original HMS Hermes deserves one.
😏 when we think about rapid development just consider that today is the anniversary of the Wright brothers first flight in 1903. And by 1914 , people were taking flying machines to war.
Nice looking class, would have been cool to see them modernization as coastal defense battleships. I think the Washington Naval Treaty should have ignored the older predreadnought ships and focus on limiting new construction within the established ratio. Japan may have felt less threatened and insulted if she could have disposed of her older ships in her own way and time, some of them could have proved useful as a home defense fleet, escort, and training vessels.
I can see your point but I really don’t think the Washington or London Naval Treaties would have worked even if revised they where fundamentally broken because of so many reasons: lack of ability to enforce, the fact that on the face of it it looks like it favors the United States and the United Kingdom but in reality they actually favored the Imperial Japanese Navy because it gave them the illusion that they could actually win a war with the American Navy, and the fact That is essentially they tried to enforce entropy, WW2 might have been less drastic if those stupid treaties hadn’t been put in place.
If you want to see the upper deck of the RAF Museum Hendon's Short Sunderland, check out Military Aviation History Channel. Christoph was granted exclusive access up there. You can only get to the lower deck of that Lovely Lady!
12-10in guns and 4-12in guns is a a lot of fire power ! I know these are not only guns with shorter barrels but the powder being used wasn’t even close to what was used in the interwar period and ww2.
So, who would win in a battle betwixt IJN Satsuma and a Royal Navy squadron comprised of HMS Orange, HMS Clementina and HMS Princess of Orange? We should add HNLMS Prins van Oranje as a Brucie Bonus too! 🍊🍊🍊🍊
One thing that always confused me was, they Tsukuba and Ibuki classes were both laid down about the same time as Satsuma and were planed at the same time. These 4 ships were "Armored Cruisers" each armed with 2 twin 12" turrets. that's 16 guns used on Armored Cruisers instead. Why did the Japanese Navy think it was better to arm these ships with limited numbers of 12" guns and alter their big expensive battleships when they could have simply substituted the 10" turrets onto them with very little change and use these 16 12" guns to complete the big expensive Satsuma class to spec? Nothing in the operations of the 4 cruisers would have really been different in the end. This seems to be a major screwup on their part.
The "dreadnought" version of satsuma required a dozen 12in guns, so they would build one ship instead of four. And they needed numbers after 1905. Plus, the concept of the all big gun battleship was untested, whereas armored cruisers had performed admirably against the russians. Last, the ships weren't useless, especially the Ibukis. When it came to firepower they were 2/3 of a typical early british battlecruiser and a bit better protected. If Spee had Ibukis instead of Sharnhorsts, he might have gotten away or even won.
REVIEW. Could you please review the USS Carmick DD-493/DMS-33? My grandpa served on her during the Korean war. I believe in one of the 5" gun batteries. Thank you. Either way I really enjoy your work. You do a great job
No they are clearly pre-dreadnaughts not semi-dreadnaughts. The armour, engines, top speed and armament are all comparable to the wobbly 8 rather than Dreadnaught. They lack any feature that would classify them as Dreadnaught’s. The best semi-Dreadnaughts are probably something like USS South Carolina or USS Texas which have most but not all of the defining features of a Dreadnaught.
@David Wright I agree that USS Texas is not a Dreadnought! It is a Super Dreadnought! As far as whether the Satsuma is a semi-dreadnought, it's original design makes it one! And I would point out that the South Carolina's gun layout was superior to the Dreadnought's! Even after the British adopted the inline gun layout, they still couldn't fire them over each other, due to the fact they were using an outdated turret sighting system. The American ships could do so from the beginning! The first Britishship that could superfire along the axis was the HMS Hood! So much for the vaunted British superiority in design!
No! Brains, stop that! Why did I just think "that looks like an interesting ship to make a model from!"... AGAIN! Damn this curse of a list that is imposed on all of us hobby-modelists... Very nice video btw!
That was when it first got obvious that Wargaming was penny-pinching by skipping low-tier ships. It used to be that battleship lines always started at Tier 3, Destroyers at Tier 2, and Cruisers at Tier 1. Now they routinely skip lower tiers even when one or more obvious candidates exist to fill it. The Pan-Asia cruiser line, for example, had no reason to skip tiers 2-4, which unlike tiers 6-10 could've had real rather than made-up cruisers fill them. The 2nd US battleship line could also have easily been a full line spanning tiers 3-10 instead of a mini-line from only 8-10. The Russian CL/CA split could've kept Kirov in the tech tree (instead of becoming one of *4* Tier 5 Soviet premium cruisers) and had the CA line start at Tier 4.
You said that they had Krupp steel armour. Does that mean that they bought and shipped the steel plates from Germany or were they able to produce steel of similar quality locally?
If I remember correctly, some German companies are already trading Krupp making process and equipment as far as 1903(?). Even before that, Krupp supplied military equipment to Japanese, which I think back in 1853(?) There are also various trade agreements with some German steel companies. But I think the Japanese started producing it locally somewhere around 1920s(?).
@@Aelxi Thank you. I tried a few quick searches but it looks like finding good sources on this isn't easy. And if I understood it correctly we are talking about Krupp cemented steel already at that point in time. Shipping all that stuff can't have been cheap. No wonder Japan's budget was as unbalanced as it was. Still better than ending up like China I guess.
You'd think an Island Nation like Japan would be more conscious of raw materials and would save the scrap for future use rather than sending it to the bottom.
Gunnery training is still important, and shooting up a real battleship means you're not only training crews, you're also testing your shells to make sure they work properly. As well as getting a better understanding of how to improve your armor scheme on future battleships.
It would be cool to see her in World of Warships. As a super cruiser of some sort heavily min-maxed. Hey, as Drach recently proved, the 8" anti-aircraft Iowa-class that WoW is introducing WAS feasible. Why not Satsuma?
Would they _actually've_ been that similar? Even with just a 2-inch caliber difference, the _Satsumas'_ 12" shells were still nearly two thirds again as heavy as their 10" shells.
So Satsuma didn’t have a uniform main battery, didn’t have turbine engines and had a top speed below 20 Knots. Why are these considered early dreadnaughts again.
@@bkjeong4302 No they didn’t “run out of money” they were unable to manufacture enough 12 inch guns. A very different thing and why the follow on class were only semi-Dreadnaughts not true Dreadnaught’s either.
@@bkjeong4302 no she wasn’t a semi-Dreadnaught she was a classic pre-Dreadnaught as built similar to the King Edward class and arguably inferior to the Lord Nelson class. Had the Japanese wanted a semi-Dreadnaught they would have built one with a uniform 10 inch armament. The fact remains the IJN never built a classic Dreadnaught with their first ship with a uniform main battery being the Fuso super Dreadnaughts. For a ship to be considered a semi-Dreadnaught it needs to have some but not all of the characteristics of a Dreadnaught which are a uniform main battery allowing central fire control (the Kawasaki’s lack this), turbine propulsion (lacking on the South Carolina’s and every US ship from then to Texas) giving a high sustained cruising speed, and a top speed of over 20 knots. Satsuma has none of this
@@davidwright7193 The defining feature sought by the different navies was a uniform (mostly around 12") all-big-gun armament on a reasonably armored hull. What kind of propulsion system to be used was of secondary concern at best. Steam turbines of that size and power rating were just gaining traction, if you will, and also still had their shortcomings in durability and fuel economy compared to triple expansion steam engines.
Christ, all the people in the comments) who have apparently ONLY ever encountered the word "satsuma" (which is pronounced more like "SAH-tsu-ma" or "SAH-ts-ma") referring to an orange. Shockingly, the ships were not, in fact, named after oranges. In fact that fruit isn't even called a satsuma in Japan, it's called a mikan. The ships were named after the historic Satsuma province in what is today Kagoshima prefecture (waaaay down at the extreme southwestern end of the main Japanese archipelago, on Kyushu). Meanwhile if you went to Japan today and asked for a satsuma, what you'd actually get is a sweet potato.
So, they built two ships. They sailed around for 9 to 10 years as second rates and then offered up as lambs to a naval conference slaughter? Did I get this right?
This is why criticizing Admiral Fisher for tge Dreadnaught race is silly! The Japanese were very close to one, and were planning to build an all big gun ship! The US Navy had the designs for one, and were only months behind the British, and had a superior gun layout to boot! The all big gun Battleship was comming!
Yes the US was only months behind the RN with its first all big gun ship. 37 months to be precise. Seems more like 3 years to me. The South Carolina only just beat the 3rd RN generation of Dreadnaughts into commission.
@David Wright I guess you missed my point! If the British hadn't done it first, the Americans or the Japanese would have done it! In fact, both planned to do it before the British decided to! Their plans, which were not secret, forced the British, to do it first! I don't think this is any great revelation!
@@davidwright7193 That's because American shipyards were at the time a good deal slower than the British ones. The fact remains that by starting the race as soon as possible, Fisher gave the British a huge head start in the construction of dreadnoughts. A lead that Britain never relinquished until the Washington Naval Treaty forced everybody to put the race on hold for a decade.
No, the ship was named after the former Satsuma Province on the island of Kyushu in southern Japan. Oh and the orange is also named after that same province.
Nope, name of a historic province in what's now Kagoshima (at least I assume that's what the ship was named after). Although if you went to Japan today and asked for a satsuma, what you'd get is a sweet potato.
Pinned post for Q&A :)
What was and is the pounder measurement system for Canon and rifle guns like the US army 14-pounder james rifle gun
Drach- Could you do a segment about the ships the various Daimyo of Japan (Satsuma) or the Shogunate built/purchased prior to the Meiji restoration? I seem to remember reading that the Shogunate purchased from the British and Satsuma from the Dutch. Is this accurate?
If the Japanese didn't run out of 12” guns and built Satsuma as a dreadnought, what terminology would be used for the all-big-gun battleships?
Why did the Ottomans stop winning naval engagements after Lepanto?
if the satsuma's were built as full on dreadnaughts, would it change anything in the grand scheme of things?
"And by 1905 they had a number of russian built ships in their inventory."
How nice of the russians to work with them
They learned from the British who favored adding French ships to their navy.
A tradition of generosity that continues with Ukraine being the beneficiary.
Kamchatka not included*
Early Russian Lend-Lease.
@@Aelxi Another Russian warship launched upside down, on fire and with a couple of dead Hookers in her bunkers.
BT3 Bryant advance boiler technician U.S.S. Gridley CG-21 here. I couldn’t believe it when we pulled into port in Hawaii in 1984 and there was a Japanese destroyer there. Progress. I’m sure glad they’re on our side, as well as the Germans and their wonderful submarine technology I.e. non-magnetic hulls etc. We are not targets or victims. We’re volunteers. Stay safe people. Thanks Drach.
Rapid technology development on that era is insane that once commissioned, they're already outdated
That really wasn’t the problem with Satsuma. The Japanese wanted to build her as a dreadnought, they just ran out of money to do so.
She was done in because she wasn’t built the way she was designed, not because the idea behind her became obsolete before she was commissioned.
The Lord Nelson were made obsolete while still on the slipways.
The Lord Nelson were made obsolete while still on the slipways. Labour and materials that were supposed to be used for the Lord Nelson’s were shifted over to Dreadnaught to get her launched quicker.
To everyone joking about the ship being named after an orange. It wasn't. both this ship and the orange were named after the old Satsuma province on the island of Kyushu in southern Japan.
Many thanks for correcting this point 👉 :-)
And on top of that (at least to the best of my knowledge), that fruit isn't even called a "satsuma" in Japan. That's 100% an English language thing. In Japan it's called a "mikan," while the word "satsuma" (or "satsuma imo") refers to a kind of sweet potato.
In Hindsight it might have been a Blessing that she was not the first all big gun Battleship.
Just imagine an alternate timeline, in which we would have to talk about the "Satsuma Arms Race"
Dreadnought just sounds better.
It would have been call the dreadnought race. The British at the time were the premiere shipwrights. Even if the South Carolina had made it out of the slipway and docks first pretty sure dreadnought would still have stolen the show. South Carolina actually had a better chance of beating Dreadnought out the sea 1st if Congress had not been money pinching the navy.
It could have been worse it could have been South Carolina race.
@@calvingreene90 good Point. I think we're lucky that Tirpitz got no chance to build the first. With cöüntließ umlauts and ie/eis in the Name.
I dont think it would have made a difference like that, just would have became the battleship arms race, and, chances are that the western world wouldnt have acknowleged the japanese beat them to a new thing anyway
@@comentedonakeyboard Really trips of the tongue that one.
Thanks!
IJN ship designers: "We shall build the _Satsumas_ with a uniform 12"/45 main battery!"
IJN ordnance officer: "Um, guys, we don't have enough 12"/45s to build even one of the _Satsumas_ like that..."
IJN ship designers: "Fine, we'll give them each four 12"/45s and make up the difference with pairs of 10-inch guns."
_A few years later:_
IJN ordnance officer: "Thank goodness we've finally got enough 12"/45s for a battleship class to use them for a uniform main battery..."
IJN ship designers: "We shall build the _Kawachis_ with a uniform _12"/50_ main battery!"
IJN ordnance officer: _"sigh"_
There are people at whom one can only marvel.
It seems to me that Japan's best choice for the Satsumas would've been similar to what Britain did to speed up Dreadnought's completion: swipe some turrets and guns from other, less important ships. Lord Nelson and Agamemnon didn't enter service until 2 years after Dreadnought, because their 12"/45 turrets were put on Dreadnought instead. This meant only 2 guns and 1 turret actually had to be built for Dreadnought, but afterward replacement guns and turrets had to be built for Lord Nelson and Agamemnon to be completed.
Mikasa was given a rather extravagant refit from 1906-1908 that replaced her pair of 12"/40 turrets with 12"/45s. And 2 each of the Tsukuba- and Ibuki-class armoured cruisers and Katori-class battleships (all also armed with a pair of 12"/45 twin turrets) were still under construction at the time Satsuma was laid down (though some would soon be completed). If Japan had been willing to delay any of those ships until more 12"/45s could be built, that's a total of 14 turrets and 28 barrels to work with. Whereas completing Satsuma and Aki to their original design would only divert away 16 barrels and 4 turrets (the single turrets for the wing mounts would've still needed to be built from scratch).
@@RedXlV Alternatively, they could've completed the _Satsumas_ with the 10" wing guns as an interim solution and later regunned them with 12" wing turrets once enough guns became available. (Also, using guns and turrets originally meant for other ships to complete the _Satsumas_ as uniform-main-battery ships would've diverted 8 turrets and 24 barrels - remember that their amidships wing turrets would've been twins, not singles.)
Thanks for peeling back the story to the core, pips and all.
Drach told this ship's story with such zest.
Thanks Drach, it shows the incredible speed of tech development when a ship can be considered obsolete even before it launched
I can't believe the IJN Satsuma isn't a super battleship based on a stretched yamato hull with 8 510mm main guns and 203mm secondary guns that can press a button and have the accuracy of modern missiles
WoWs moment
Weeb power
I'm not proud that I get that reference.
It’s more fun and engaging this way
OOF
I just love these big gun ships from the late 1800's - early 1900's. They're just the epitome of what a warship should look like.
These are such interesting almost world firsts. It just goes to show what the proper infrastructure does.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
You'd think that the powers that were would have armed the things entirely with a ten inch main battery. Spotting fall of shot must have been difficult.
Imagine Satsuma with an all 10 inch main battery - is it a small dreadnought? Is it a large cruiser? The arguments would be lovely to witness.
Mind, the difference in hitting power between 12'' and 10'' guns was enough that you really wanted the 12'' guns to be sure of landing the lethal blows to the citadel. A 12'' shell is something like 300 pounds heavier on average and it is remarkable just how tough it was for even 12'' shells to get through battleships of the age. An all-10'' gun armament would greatly limit their ability to really fight other battleships. However, as you infer, it also meant that like all predreadnought battleships, Satsumas had the same problem of confusing aim by having competing falls of shot. However, they at least could be engaging more dreadnoughts at competitive ranges than most predreadnoughts that could never hope to get close enough to actually use most of their weapons.
@@mikeynth7919 Would have been considered a heavily armed cruiser or possibly a 'german style' battlecruiser (battleship armor, cruiser guns).
In WW2 Japan had different colored dyes in each caliber of shell. The splashes of each caliber were tinted the same color. I reckon they did prior to that as well.
See Drach's vid on the Battle Off Samar.
@@ArcFixer Not in the 1910s. Dyepacks like that only came about around the 1930s.
Love these 5 mins (or so) vids.
Thanks for video this is the time I heard of these ships
These and the lord Nelsons are in my humble opinion the most fascinating ships.
Great content, as always! Please consider making video about Estonian submarines Lembit and Kalev. Lembit (built in 1934) is still in existance and is now a museum ship in Tallinn.
Thank god you are back on ships
My favourite; feeling I've waited years for this guide!
IJN Satsuma, the heaviest armoured citrus to ever sail the high seas
@JZ's BFF chocolate chip?
Going out to a one-sided gunfight with Nagato is fair enough, but Nagato and Friends is a pretty good excuse for why you are on the seabed.
just wondering when you would release a new episode, when up it pops! please keep them coming Drach
What do you mean wondering? He has a pretty regular schedule.
Lord I remember Cuniberti from my research! The name alone brings back memories!
This is one of those amazing ships like the original HMS, Hermes, Britain’s first purpose built aircraft carrier. Perhaps not the most illustrious careers, but very definitive in the future of modern navies. Hell, if USS Ranger got a video of its own, the original HMS Hermes deserves one.
😏 when we think about rapid development just consider that today is the anniversary of the Wright brothers first flight in 1903. And by 1914 , people were taking flying machines to war.
What flight? Do you mean that soccer field hopping?
Mind blowing
@@morriganmhor5078 it wasn't the longest flight in history. But it was the first.
@@morriganmhor5078 Like the other nations had anything better at the time lol. The Wright Brothers got proper flights going within the next year.
Civil War vets got to watch mankind go from "flying" in balloons to flying airplanes.
So you're telling me that this ship doesn't come with 20 inch guns?!??!!?
This is outrageous, it's unfair!
Take a seat, young Setsuma
Very Good - Thanks ! ! !
🙂😎👍
>Ahead of their time when they were laid down
>Outdated by the time they were commissioned
Ouch
Nice looking class, would have been cool to see them modernization as coastal defense battleships. I think the Washington Naval Treaty should have ignored the older predreadnought ships and focus on limiting new construction within the established ratio. Japan may have felt less threatened and insulted if she could have disposed of her older ships in her own way and time, some of them could have proved useful as a home defense fleet, escort, and training vessels.
I can see your point but I really don’t think the Washington or London Naval Treaties would have worked even if revised they where fundamentally broken because of so many reasons: lack of ability to enforce, the fact that on the face of it it looks like it favors the United States and the United Kingdom but in reality they actually favored the Imperial Japanese Navy because it gave them the illusion that they could actually win a war with the American Navy, and the fact That is essentially they tried to enforce entropy, WW2 might have been less drastic if those stupid treaties hadn’t been put in place.
If you want to see the upper deck of the RAF Museum Hendon's Short Sunderland, check out Military Aviation History Channel. Christoph was granted exclusive access up there. You can only get to the lower deck of that Lovely Lady!
12-10in guns and 4-12in guns is a a lot of fire power ! I know these are not only guns with shorter barrels but the powder being used wasn’t even close to what was used in the interwar period and ww2.
Great work Sir thank you
Wooooot!
So, who would win in a battle betwixt IJN Satsuma and a Royal Navy squadron comprised of HMS Orange, HMS Clementina and HMS Princess of Orange? We should add HNLMS Prins van Oranje as a Brucie Bonus too! 🍊🍊🍊🍊
I think that the Satsuma would have been forced to the bottom of a stocking by Christmas.
Imagine having to rebuild one of these during over the summer In Finland. The sheer amount of Kilju you'd have to make to finance it.
One thing that always confused me was, they Tsukuba and Ibuki classes were both laid down about the same time as Satsuma and were planed at the same time. These 4 ships were "Armored Cruisers" each armed with 2 twin 12" turrets. that's 16 guns used on Armored Cruisers instead. Why did the Japanese Navy think it was better to arm these ships with limited numbers of 12" guns and alter their big expensive battleships when they could have simply substituted the 10" turrets onto them with very little change and use these 16 12" guns to complete the big expensive Satsuma class to spec? Nothing in the operations of the 4 cruisers would have really been different in the end. This seems to be a major screwup on their part.
The "dreadnought" version of satsuma required a dozen 12in guns, so they would build one ship instead of four. And they needed numbers after 1905. Plus, the concept of the all big gun battleship was untested, whereas armored cruisers had performed admirably against the russians. Last, the ships weren't useless, especially the Ibukis. When it came to firepower they were 2/3 of a typical early british battlecruiser and a bit better protected. If Spee had Ibukis instead of Sharnhorsts, he might have gotten away or even won.
you can sail IJN settsu in War Thunder! it's her 1920 modification though. it's nice if you're tired of the whimsical nature of WoWS.
Hi, a great video. re there detailed reports / photos/ video of this death by target practice event?
thanks
Solid content
everytime there's an IJN ship I'm like "ok, so... when did it sink? 43? 44?"
REVIEW. Could you please review the USS Carmick DD-493/DMS-33? My grandpa served on her during the Korean war. I believe in one of the 5" gun batteries. Thank you. Either way I really enjoy your work. You do a great job
Its a ship ! and its Japanese ! No i mean it's REALLY Japanese not British in origin
The best semi-dreadnaught ever built ?
No they are clearly pre-dreadnaughts not semi-dreadnaughts. The armour, engines, top speed and armament are all comparable to the wobbly 8 rather than Dreadnaught. They lack any feature that would classify them as Dreadnaught’s. The best semi-Dreadnaughts are probably something like USS South Carolina or USS Texas which have most but not all of the defining features of a Dreadnaught.
@David Wright
I agree that USS Texas is not a Dreadnought!
It is a Super Dreadnought!
As far as whether the Satsuma is a semi-dreadnought, it's original design makes it one! And I would point out that the South Carolina's gun layout was superior to the Dreadnought's!
Even after the British adopted the inline gun layout, they still couldn't fire them over each other, due to the fact they were using an outdated turret sighting system. The American ships could do so from the beginning! The first Britishship that could superfire along the axis was the HMS Hood! So much for the vaunted British superiority in design!
Ooo!
Just out of curiosity. Would she still have been considered a semi dreadnought had her armament been all 10 inch guns.
I don't see why not. The first German dreadnought were armed with an all eleven inch main battery.
I'm sure it'll be another purchasable ship in World of Warships
Hugo, Congo and Nagato are names I recognize.
No! Brains, stop that!
Why did I just think "that looks like an interesting ship to make a model from!"... AGAIN!
Damn this curse of a list that is imposed on all of us hobby-modelists...
Very nice video btw!
Me too!
1:18 The fact Wargaming skips the Tier III Italian battleship that easily could’ve been that is so disappointing.
That was when it first got obvious that Wargaming was penny-pinching by skipping low-tier ships.
It used to be that battleship lines always started at Tier 3, Destroyers at Tier 2, and Cruisers at Tier 1. Now they routinely skip lower tiers even when one or more obvious candidates exist to fill it. The Pan-Asia cruiser line, for example, had no reason to skip tiers 2-4, which unlike tiers 6-10 could've had real rather than made-up cruisers fill them. The 2nd US battleship line could also have easily been a full line spanning tiers 3-10 instead of a mini-line from only 8-10. The Russian CL/CA split could've kept Kirov in the tech tree (instead of becoming one of *4* Tier 5 Soviet premium cruisers) and had the CA line start at Tier 4.
i cannot believe there is still no IJN Yubari :P
You said that they had Krupp steel armour. Does that mean that they bought and shipped the steel plates from Germany or were they able to produce steel of similar quality locally?
They bought it, they sure as fuck weren't able to produce it locally
@@chadthundercock5641 what do you base that on?
@@WALTERBROADDUS It was revealed to me in a dream.
If I remember correctly, some German companies are already trading Krupp making process and equipment as far as 1903(?). Even before that, Krupp supplied military equipment to Japanese, which I think back in 1853(?) There are also various trade agreements with some German steel companies. But I think the Japanese started producing it locally somewhere around 1920s(?).
@@Aelxi Thank you. I tried a few quick searches but it looks like finding good sources on this isn't easy.
And if I understood it correctly we are talking about Krupp cemented steel already at that point in time.
Shipping all that stuff can't have been cheap. No wonder Japan's budget was as unbalanced as it was. Still better than ending up like China I guess.
You'd think an Island Nation like Japan would be more conscious of raw materials and would save the scrap for future use rather than sending it to the bottom.
Gunnery training is still important, and shooting up a real battleship means you're not only training crews, you're also testing your shells to make sure they work properly. As well as getting a better understanding of how to improve your armor scheme on future battleships.
It would be cool to see her in World of Warships. As a super cruiser of some sort heavily min-maxed. Hey, as Drach recently proved, the 8" anti-aircraft Iowa-class that WoW is introducing WAS feasible. Why not Satsuma?
Was the _Satsuma_ ever included in War Plan Orange?
Either canarias class cruiser or the almirante Cervera story please 🥺
So, the ships committed ritual suicide rather than be submitted to the inglorious trip to the scrapyard.
Tome having 12 ans 10" guns is madness. The shell splashes would be very similar.
Would they _actually've_ been that similar? Even with just a 2-inch caliber difference, the _Satsumas'_ 12" shells were still nearly two thirds again as heavy as their 10" shells.
@@vikkimcdonough6153 At the distances you'd start firing on the enemy, yes. It'd still be similar enough to present a problem.
Satsuma, Aki boom boom down... Da da da.
Not to be confused with the Tier 11 Ultra Yamato class Battleship
So the Dreadnought won a close run race. What with the Satsuma and the South Carolina.
So Satsuma didn’t have a uniform main battery, didn’t have turbine engines and had a top speed below 20 Knots. Why are these considered early dreadnaughts again.
The Japanese wanted to have a uniform main battery, they just ran out of money.
@@bkjeong4302 No they didn’t “run out of money” they were unable to manufacture enough 12 inch guns. A very different thing and why the follow on class were only semi-Dreadnaughts not true Dreadnaught’s either.
@@davidwright7193
The point remains that the Japanese wanted to build her as a dreadnought and not as a semi-dreadnought.
@@bkjeong4302 no she wasn’t a semi-Dreadnaught she was a classic pre-Dreadnaught as built similar to the King Edward class and arguably inferior to the Lord Nelson class. Had the Japanese wanted a semi-Dreadnaught they would have built one with a uniform 10 inch armament. The fact remains the IJN never built a classic Dreadnaught with their first ship with a uniform main battery being the Fuso super Dreadnaughts.
For a ship to be considered a semi-Dreadnaught it needs to have some but not all of the characteristics of a Dreadnaught which are a uniform main battery allowing central fire control (the Kawasaki’s lack this), turbine propulsion (lacking on the South Carolina’s and every US ship from then to Texas) giving a high sustained cruising speed, and a top speed of over 20 knots. Satsuma has none of this
@@davidwright7193 The defining feature sought by the different navies was a uniform (mostly around 12") all-big-gun armament on a reasonably armored hull. What kind of propulsion system to be used was of secondary concern at best. Steam turbines of that size and power rating were just gaining traction, if you will, and also still had their shortcomings in durability and fuel economy compared to triple expansion steam engines.
Christ, all the people in the comments) who have apparently ONLY ever encountered the word "satsuma" (which is pronounced more like "SAH-tsu-ma" or "SAH-ts-ma") referring to an orange. Shockingly, the ships were not, in fact, named after oranges. In fact that fruit isn't even called a satsuma in Japan, it's called a mikan. The ships were named after the historic Satsuma province in what is today Kagoshima prefecture (waaaay down at the extreme southwestern end of the main Japanese archipelago, on Kyushu). Meanwhile if you went to Japan today and asked for a satsuma, what you'd actually get is a sweet potato.
Heavy sigh, sent to the bottom by friendly ships.
I learned a new word today. “Quantinary”
Quaternary.
Important landmark ships nonetheless
So...from then on.
Had things been different.
All battleships would be forever classed as either 'pre-Satsumas' or 'Satsumas'?
Weird.
☮
So, they built two ships. They sailed around for 9 to 10 years as second rates and then offered up as lambs to a naval conference slaughter?
Did I get this right?
I thought Imperial Japan didn't use prefixes on their ship names
Didn't the Royal Navy develop the Granny Smith class to counter these ?
Arigato
The SETSU served as target ship until about 1944 . Testimony of a pilot of dive'bomber .
t
This is why criticizing Admiral Fisher for tge Dreadnaught race is silly!
The Japanese were very close to one, and were planning to build an all big gun ship!
The US Navy had the designs for one, and were only months behind the British, and had a superior gun layout to boot!
The all big gun Battleship was comming!
Yes the US was only months behind the RN with its first all big gun ship. 37 months to be precise. Seems more like 3 years to me. The South Carolina only just beat the 3rd RN generation of Dreadnaughts into commission.
@David Wright
I guess you missed my point!
If the British hadn't done it first, the Americans or the Japanese would have done it! In fact, both planned to do it before the British decided to! Their plans, which were not secret, forced the British, to do it first!
I don't think this is any great revelation!
@@davidwright7193 That's because American shipyards were at the time a good deal slower than the British ones.
The fact remains that by starting the race as soon as possible, Fisher gave the British a huge head start in the construction of dreadnoughts. A lead that Britain never relinquished until the Washington Naval Treaty forced everybody to put the race on hold for a decade.
110th, 17 December 2022
And her sister ships, Blood and Nectarine
"seems trite, but did any Japanese battleships survive WW2?"
The Nagato immediately comes to mind, she was sunk in a nuclear test after the war
Mikasa.
The IJN Satsuma, a "plum" of a semi-dreadnought battleship.
A ship that does not have much a-peel..
The fact that a battleship is named after a mandarin orange variant makes me laugh every time.
They’re delicious, but they don’t exactly inspire fear of fiery destruction.
No, the ship was named after the former Satsuma Province on the island of Kyushu in southern Japan. Oh and the orange is also named after that same province.
IJN to Graf Spee: Have a Satsuma! Have a fucking Satsuma 🍊!
.. I'll Bet They Farted a Lot Being Aboard One Of Those Things..
Any my Summer car players Here?
この画像ってまさか薩摩型準弩級戦艦かな?
Remember small ones are more juicy.
Interesting ships.
Japanese ships have to much pride to be scrapped. Give me a warriors death!!!!?
expensive target practice
There was me thinking Satsumas where a type of orange
Nope, name of a historic province in what's now Kagoshima (at least I assume that's what the ship was named after). Although if you went to Japan today and asked for a satsuma, what you'd get is a sweet potato.
USS Orca