Eric Valentine | Why You Shouldn't Use Yamaha NS10's
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- Опубліковано 25 вер 2021
- Eric Valentine on the drawbacks of NS10s, and his preferences for affordable monitor speakers.
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My first experience with NS10s was hilarious. I was a teenager at Berklee and recording in the big studio there (first time I ever touched an SSL). As a young production student, needless to say, I was pretty mindblown at all of this incredible gear…and behind this spaceship SSL, facing this gorgeous collection of outboard gear were these irritating little black and white speakers. I’ll never forget the way they “fizzed” at me…my first impression was so distinctive…to me, they FIZZED. I knew intrinsically that they served a purpose and that engineers must’ve used them for surgical listening but they were just awful to my teenage brain. 20 years later, I understand the deal but man…I’ll never forget all of this incredible sounding gear being piped into those awful little Yamahas. What a first impression lol
I disagree. My NS10s are my primary speakers. If you keep in mind 2 things then they can work for you.
1. They are midrange sounding for a reason and if you avoid scooping the mids, boosting the highs and lows then you can get to the primary purpose of the speakers which is -
2. Working in the midrange. All speakers sound different and mostly because of the range on the top end and bottom end. But all speakers cover the midrange. That's where the real action is. And that's great for getting a balance between vocals and instruments. And most of my clients, for better or worse, are listening to music on cell phones, ear buds or computer speakers anyway.
If you can make a mix work in the midrange the rest will follow.
Of course I do switch to 2 other set of speakers during a mix, but I've mixed many hit records including a Grammy winning album primarily on NS10s.
agree 100%
I also disagree with the video, but in addition to everything you've said, I would add that the very low group delay inherent in the sealed enclosure design is an incredibly useful attribute for nearfields, and I never see anyone talk about it!
Not all people know,NS10 and Auratone has written the book! 💯 Don't switch speakers and focus on the mids. When done switch to the mains and voila
let's face it, for those of us who learned on ns-10 and have worked with them for decades they are a crucial tool... and nobody else is gonna get it.
@@adotbeckthe low group delay is in fact more useful than the specific frequency response, IMO. this is always gonna be debated because it's harder to even explain to folks but the proof is in the pudding. but I believe this feature is NS-10s makes any painful aspects of your mids more painful. anything confusing or crowded will call more attention to itself.
NS10s are great for beginners because they teach you how to mix the midrange. Once you "get it" you'll hear that same midrange in other speakers but they're a great training tool.
no they are junk and it was just a monkey see monkey doo that made them famous. someone with skill, used junk but know what he was doing and made good sound.
Well, you certainly nailed it. And that's my point as well, once you get it. 👍🏼
Eric has mixed some records that sound truly amazing. He is right up there with some of my favorites -- love his perspective.
I used to have NS 10s and loved them… although I did a large part of my mixing on them I only thought of them as reference monitors. I always finished my mixes on bigger monitors, where I fixed the lows and sub frequencies …
i have NS 10' s that I bought brand new way back.
They are cool but really never got a perfect eq master final straight from them.
I'm using Adam A7X's now and they are awesome!
You mentioned the Adam speakers 5:15 and I totally like them a lot!!..
Crazy bro hahah I still use the NS-10m studios without the sub as mains and I make heavy 808/rnb/dance music most of the time though I'm finding out more and more that WITH the sub, it's translating much better. I can usually dial in distortion for low end/808's much better without though.
Just like Analog vs Digital, it doesn't REALLY matter, just get use to what you have and know what you've got. Some will make you work harder than others but it's just about what you can get used to. Dope podcast!!
Wow! There IS an Eric Valentine in us for sure. Soooo relatable and honest!
Aboslutely... you know.
I do 50 % of my mixing on mid-range headphones. Real low volume. Then check my work against the speakers in my Mack Book. It’s an eye opener. Then when I’m close to being happy I use 8” Yamahas at moderate volume to taste.
Ive only experienced NS 10's in local studio's, and such.... So I never got use to the mid-range bump that SO many others have spoken about. But I think at the end of the day... its all about your attention to detail and what you're used to too, (speaker wise) and your willingness to cross-reference your mixes upon multiple options...(headphones, and speaker options) to come up with your own workflow choices.BTW...ERIC VALENTINE ROCKS HARD and DETROIT loves ya man!!
Your view is much more inexpensive and it makes you "Learn to use what cha' got". Thanks for your input.
NS 10's were originally retail consumer speakers and are used as a reference point in studios now. It's considered a "bad speaker" for audiophiles and that's the point of them.
I have a pair of sE Munro Eg 150's that have served me incredibly well for over a decade now. Considering the company no longer exists, once these go I'm going to have to move on to another model unfortunately. These things go all the way down to 40Hz, and the shape of the cabinet means they perform reasonably well in almost any room you could put them in. Shame they didn't really take off as I've done some of the best work of my career on them.
i use NS10's for focus on midrange, and proac 100's as the "inverse" of what the NS10s convey. Finishing is done on Adam A7s with a sub, and Sony MDR-7506's. Never been more satisfied with all the information this configuration provides for a mix. "Why you shouldn't use NS10's" is a silly title - they still do a job, and they still do it very well. You can get CLA-10's and when we compared them to a pair of original NS10s, there was no audible difference. They are still a more-than-relevant choice.
My approach is very similar 10s and 100s. If the midrange doesn’t change switching between the two you got “it” right.
When he did the mouth thing for the ns10 , it was magnificently accurate
NS10s are great as A-B speakers and for mixing the midrange. I would recommend using them for those tasks but definitely not as mains. Use a good power amp if you can get one
I had the same experience with Genelec - demoed 8351B, measured and calibrated with GLM (my room is really good, GLM didn't do anything significant), made some test mixes. It really sounded great in my room. After a few days switched back to my monitors and man was I surprised - all those mixes sucked, especially in the low end, boomy and muddy as hell. Never expected this.
I got the 'modern' ns10's which are the CLA-10's. Changed my mixes to a different level. They're my B monitors, but I find myself working on them more, as I am getting more and more familiar with them. I should say though, these monitors are CRAP, but I believe that's the point. Where these monitors shine, other than the midrange, is also the stereo field, being sooo transparent, letting you pocket your components perfectly, giving you such a 3D mix. Another is things like reverb and being able to really understand and flesh out the tail end. To anyone considering pulling the trigger, I warn you, be prepared to be initially let down, but the reward is waiting later. Also, don't start mixing straight away, give it time and use them as 'listening' monitors to just hear your favourite music and even some of your older mixes. Once you feel confident you know what's going on, give it a shot in a project.
IMHO It's important to remember that near field is a listening position, not a type of monitor. You can be in the near field of an 18" JBL woofer and it won't do you much good. Whatever you choose for near field monitoring - more or less arm's length distant, because that minimizes the effect of the room - it should produce its flattest output at low to mid 80 dB spl output (using an spl meter at the listening position). Why 83-85 dB? Because that's where most human ears are flattest per the Fletcher-Munson curve.
NS10's were always used as part of a multiway speaker set up, never alone. Plenty of hits were mixed on them in that configuration too ( especially UK dance music in the 90's, you'd find them on the back of pretty much every large format studio desk I ever used in London for sure ) you can't really argue with that heritage to be honest.
Not as relevant now as they once were, but still good as a grot box for sure.
'Grot box'?
YOUR BLUETOOTH SOUND BAR IS BETTER THAN SOME NS10'S! THEY SUCK IN 2023 STANDARDS! ADAM 5"CHERS ARE THE NEW KING OF SPEAKERS!
@@maximustheproducer The whole point is that they suck. You get a mix to sound great on them and it sounds great everywhere. It's all about mix translation.
@@billB101 oh I know they are crap! They were crap originally when they were made for home audio! Then Sony and JbL kicked Yamaha’s a$$ in the 80’s
By the way that wasn't Jürgen Strauß you showed.... He looks very different ;) Strauss Monitors are insane though !!
I use their (Strauss) SE-MF-4 Midfields.....And Adam A44H nearfields.
I don't agree that the main thing about the response of NS10s is that it makes you add a smile curve - It's more that because the sound is almost entirely midrange, you work harder on getting that range to be balanced and musically exciting, to fight against the limits of the speakers
If you can make a track sound good on these it will sound good anywhere. That’s the point
Exactly.
I get your point but if you can't hear some elements at all with them, wouldn't that be just taking a guess and hoping for the best?
same with a boombox
@@JiihaaS i think you don't get its all about the mids first. No extraction from subs and highs. Thats where the most music information is. Once the mids are nice and tight switch to the main speakers (full range) or headphones to match the lows and highs to the mids. 🧠
@@Dr_Beat I do get that, but op basically said these are the only speakers you need to make a track sound good everywhere. I disagree and the reason is in what you said: you still need something to hear the lows and highs with.
The paper is to thin for you. There's a guy upgrading the woofer but ya know.... I've had to add some girth and eq
overall to get the sound that is tolerable (Used Jason Bourne movie to find the eq). Will be checking out those
NF3s.
do you think you could just you any pair of other cheap speakers?
What he says in this interview about NS10's and Genelec is 100% spot on to my own experience. I use the Yamaha HS8 right now and they have translated well. If I was going to try something else it would be the Adam A7x
A7xs are very good. I own a pair and their top end is *chef's kiss
A7X’s are incredible. I can attest
A7x are beginner monitors. They are mostly for producing. Not mixing. You CAN mix on them but they have practically no mid range. There are way better options. Imo PMC and ATC are the best.
@@johnwalter6410 Lol are you serious? You're comparing monitors that are at LEAST double the price of the adams, and those are the absolute starting models in either line. On top of that I've seen the A7X's in some serious studio's as mains...
@@tyoung I'm very serious. And the monitors that I mentioned are roughly 20 times what the Adam's cost. I've owned the Adams. Those are what I started off on. Now I mix on eve sc307's and ns10's (for mid reference). I will eventually get the ATC's. The sv7 are ok But I wouldn't rely on them in a professional studio
Personally I like the Yamaha HS7s. They have a very present midrange like the NS10s, but they have a bit more balance across the frequency range. The Adams are too bassy for my tastes. But then again I like to focus on the mids. I find too much low end just gets in the way.
often my track sound perfect on my HS7 and sounds not ok on other supports ...... often .....
@@ChrisBessyThen you're doing it wrong
@@silkroad1201 I have better results with RP5 or with my ns10 ... the HS7 is not flat and the sound is not natural. I prefer the sound of the ns10 :) wich speakers you use ?
Kali IN8 Mark II are 300 for 3 way coaxial midfields. Nothing can compete under the 1k range for me. I mix on a pair on Kii Three.
vs the eve audio sc207?
never heard them, never missed them.....use avantones to set levels right though....
I still don’t understand the NS10 thing. Back in the day where mix guys would put paper tissues over the tweeter. WTF!!!
I just heard a comparison to a mix I did on my Focal Trio 6 be’s on ATC speakers. It was embarrassing how bad my mix sounded on them.
It’s not that the Focals aren’t ok on other speakers like Dynaudio, Genelec etc but the ATC’s were so unbelievably honest in comparison.
It's taken a really long time but I've finally become comfortable with the idea of using different speakers for different parts of mixing. I've got my high end stuff that I could mix on all day - K&H0300, MM27s etc.. but I love my auratone for balancing the mids and checking stereo blend of different panned tracks in mono. I'm hearing people also like a shitty boombox and there's always the in-car check as well!
These days I also own a pair of Slate VSX and I absolutely love them, I'm weirdly doing more and work on quality headphones with this new 3D software that makes it sound like you're in a room.
whats your take on aurotones ? quincey jones “truth speakers “
[ HELP ]
Almost every Yamaha Ns10 video has someone in the comment section that says "once you nail the mid range, the rest will follow". Im buying a pair next week but my question is this: If the Yamaha Ns10s struggle with high end and low end performance, [meaning the highs and lows dont exist or struggle to exist?] how does the rest of the bass, kick drum and hi hats follow if it is struggling to exist or have a roll off? Or is the process of "nailing the mid range first" means that Im able to master the high and lows on the Ns10s? Or do I have to get a next pair of monitors to master the hi and lows?
I hope this question makes sense and someone is able to give me an accurate answer. Thanks for reading.
I own a set of NS-10M’s and I can’t really use them. I don’t see how anyone actually mixes on them. They definitely will tell you if the mid range of your mix has issues, but then it’s back to the main monitors to sort of figure it out.
That being said, Bob Clearmountain and Elliot Scheiner haven’t seemed to have had a problem with them, and they’ve done umm… GOAT level mixing jobs on those, so there’s that.
I might just suck at mixing 🤣
Adam Audio A series are awesome
What a nice talk, do we get more from him?
The full interview can be found on our channel!
UA-cam Search "Making records with Eric Valentine"
what I always "ejoyed" abtout the NS10 is the fact, that when I mix with them I simply dont't care about the lowend. And that was the trick: I just leveled the lows and left die "mixing-equing" of the very lows alone and all of the sudden my mixes where way better than before. The thought me to care about the really important things. But I have to say I just mix metal, punk and rock so mayebe with dance music or hip hopp nowadays .... I dont know. For my job in guitar heavy music - they are the best I know.
This guy really knows his stuff. I wish he’d specify what he meant about the Genelecs. Is it all of their speakers or is it just a particular model? “The ones” are very spendy, so I hope they wouldn’t be so misleading at the price point
We use 8020s.
@@HavingaGAS as a second monitor?
I've worked on them. Also used a bunch of Yamaha's active monitors. It was a struggle, to get it sounding good across all platforms (speakers, car, phone, etc). Since I've bought Focals (Trio 6 be), mixing feels like cheating- I do it in no time with less plugins and it translates better. 🙂
So mixing on focal trio 6 the mix will translate over other speakers without much fuzzing over it?
@@barneyrubble8255 Yes and as you wrote- the mix will translate over other speakers without much fuzzing over it.
Monitoring is about what works for you. Like Eric, I do not get on with Genelecs. I also can't stand ATC or PMC. In the end, I went with Living Voice passive floor-standing speakers, which I have mounted so that the tweeters are at ear level. The speakers probably do not measure very accurately, because they were designed by ear rather than by measurements. Newsflash: we listen using ears, not using measurement equipment. So, every style of music, at every SPL, sounds natural but also incredibly detailed. My own mixes now translate vastly better than on any studio monitor I have used over the last 20 years or so. YMMV.
If you want to get the workflow of making yourself work hard on ns10s without being so disoriented, try some tannoy system 8s.
I like Event.
Talk to Eric Alexander of Tekton Design. He had a fascinating article about them on his site at one time.
Kali is a great affordable speaker. I have the LP6’s but their IN8’s are also great.
Big Red Uries. 1980s NYC recording studios
+1 for the Adam T8Vs. They’ve easily got to be the most amount of monitor for the least amount of money. I love mine! NS10s are ok if you really know what you’re doing with them but, as this guy intimates, are probably somewhat irrelevant for this day and age.
“Im fuckin awesome at this! *checks mix* ………hmm. 4:43
Looks like Steve O
Maybe an NS1000M then.
He just recommended a 6500$ pair of speakers for the starter producer :)
maybe ns10 arent so bad after all :)
He sure didn't.
Yeah the Adam T8Vs are like 300 a piece new, which was the real answer.
He actually said he couldn’t recommend them... but yeah! And for that price you don’t get amplifiers. There’s a good review on the Strauss site that recommends amps that cost around €330.
I wish Strauss where only 30k...LMAO
Kali LP6
Had a pair and my opinion is that they are not for mixing. Maybe listening or computer speakers.
@@ericmaldonado4557 gotta disagree. These are way better than simple computer speakers, and just fine as nearfields for mixing. To each his own!
@@petermcateer1354 i tried the LP6 and they sounds flat .... but no precision, it was very difficult for me to adjust a equaliser on them....
A great engineer can make a great record on ns!0's, barefoot, focals, genelec etc. Doesn't matter.
I'm sorry, I can't. Worked with Genelecs and Focals; they just turn transients into mush. They're far from being tight. The only speaker I know, and I can trust, are passive Quested's.
@@davidclarkson3066 Trick I see out there is to have more than one monitoring setup, and great headphones. Plus most listeners aren't navy submarine sonar audio lilsteneers with how they digest music.
Why would you even wanna go below 80hz lol
NS10 are controlls, not mains. What are you talking about?
Why you shouldn't use Yamaha NS-10M, NS-10M PRO STUDIO, NS-10MC, NS-10MX, and especially NS-10MT monitors. Think I'll get a pair of 10mt's
the thing about ns10 from my own little experience is that they take the character of the amp driving them immaculately. if you use solid state you're going to get a very sterile and somewhat lifeless sound, despite the "accuracy". however on the other if you're willing to let go a little of that "accuracy" and use a tube based power amp to run them, boy do they sound "nice", I don't how accurate but definitely "nice" and enjoyable.
if your NS10s sound "nice" something is wrong, LOL =)
@@francamour1084 i hear. fair enough.
?
Gear Acquisition Syndrome
Ns10s are a 1980s bookshelf. Crap.
Quested speakers are great. I recommend them.
The truth is that regardless of the monitors used, the engineer has to learn how a mix translates. NS10’S ARE NOT BRUTALLY HONEST. They are fatiguing, midrange dominant, and quite distorted in mid through higher frequencies. What they are is limited in terms of lows and extended highs. Given that most studios are not capable of supporting bass below 85Hz in terms of room dimensions, and that 20 Hz requires bout 58 feet minimum in at least 1 dimension to not fold back into midrange, limited low frequency support may be about the best thing NS10’s have going for them.
If they were “brutally honest” mastering engineers would use them… but they do NOT use NS10’s because they lack fidelity.
They are phenomenal for mixing vocals, why do you think they are in ALL good studios in the world 🤦🏻♂️
It is really helpful…
Who is this dude even, dude?! 😂
In the words of Chris Crocker leave the NS10'S alone! 😂
Hand Zimmer doesn’t mix Wannabe Pop Songs.
Well, that was useful. No no, it wasn't at all. It was shit. How about this for and crazy idea? Do a vid on how the average mix engineer can affordable up their monitoring game? I know it's crazy right?
Thé mistake to make, is to eq to NS10's. They're not 'designed' for that purpose. Their main purpose is for balance, volume balance, fx balance, dynamics balance, that's it. If you want to eq, get a second set. I always laugh really hard, when people only rant about frequencies, and forget about the rest. Adam, Genelec, they all suck.
NS 10s are JUNK!
NS 10s are ASS. Use whatever you want and check mix on the iPhone and air pods