Thanks for the overwhelming response to this video, as well as our other videos on The Real Gunsmith Channel! We appreciate your comments and questions. Due to the volume of the comments and questions, some which would take some time to answer, we just don’t have the time to respond to them all. However many of the questions will be answered in future videos. Our first priority is to our paying clients. Writing out long answers would take time away from that, and I won’t put them “on hold” to post long answers here. If you have questions about getting gun work done or a custom rifle built, contact us at randyselby@randyscustomrifles.com. I have a wide range of prices for custom rifles so even the “average Joe or Josephine” can get into a custom package, just as accurate as the higher end rifles. For our detractors, we appreciate your difference of opinion, too, but I stand by my decades of experience. To all of you, thanks again for your overwhelming support. Stay tuned! God bless you all. Randy and Cathy
I have so much respect for you Randy. I could not agree more. We should always look to put an animal down in front of our eyes and know the capabilities of our cartridge and rifle package.
The Real Gunsmith people watch movies like shooter and sniper and think” I can do that too”. And with no training, knowledge of ballistics ,or ethics. They try this nonsense out on our game. I have lost count of how many injured animals I’ve seen over the years from people whom are inexperienced and insist on hunting anyways. I believe they lack the discipline it takes as well as the respect to harvest game the proper way . Thank you for your videos. Hopefully this information sinks in for some of these people. Merry Christmas you you and your family :)
West Desert Shooter, this gentleman is referring to hunting and taking game, not general long range shooting. His entire message is about hunting ethics do's and don't. Many internet vids out there unfortunately sensationalized and even encourage that game can be taken at extremely long range.
Here is a story your dont often hear about on the internet. A few years back my one of my friends drew a Bull Elk tag in Arizona and I offered to help guide. We hunted a heavily wooded and mountainous area of the unit and spotted herd (about 10) of elk through a small break in the woods on a hill across from us. The herd bull (6x6) clearly stood out. I ranged the bull at 680 yards. This bull was magnificent ! Although it was temping to take a shot.. it was clearly unethical. His rifle was a Remington 700 3006 loaded with Barnes 180 grain TSX. His rifle was capable... however his scope had no hold over marks for this range. On top of this it would have been a standing off hand shot ..due to being on a steep hill and the elk never stopped moving! To be clear.. there was no tree nearby to lean against and if you got down on a knee or went prone you couldn't see them. We didn't want risk wounding it or hitting a cow. Too many condtions were against us. We opted to move closer in the direction they walked but the herd moved away and it was the last we saw of them.
@@uspatriot7777 that's good you passed that shot 700 is a long poke I could pull it off but not under the circumstances you described Good call on passing on that one!
instead of complaining about what other people aren't or are doing.... he could encourage to hunt predators, like he was saying in another video, is the main problem that put a large dent in game population.
I've been hunting for 35 years, I've killed deer, elk, antelope at various ranges from 50 yards out to 400. I've killed deer with the 223 , 22-250 and upto 45-70. I calculated out of all the animals I've killed the average distance was 200 yards or less. As a young man I was taught to get as close as possible to the game no matter what cartridge was used. Hell I killed a mature Mule Deer buck at 110 yards at a full run with my 1898 US Springfield 30-40 Krag, I was as proud as one could get at that shot with the original military sights.
One of the best parts about hunting is trying to figure out how to get close enough to make a good ethical kill. Not making videos called "12 year old whacks trophy Bull at 1206 yards!"
Excellent comment. I commented on that particular video. What is that young man going to learn from that experience other than laziness? Drive to the field, walk maybe 100 yards in street clothes to snipe at majestic game?
I shot my first Muley Buck at somewhere between 200 & 250 yds using a Lever-Action Marlin 30-30 with Iron Sights at about 300 yds! It took 2 shots because he was on a dead run, the 1st shot missed the 2nd took him down hard! The round I was using was a 180grn pill called a Saber Tip shooting across a Sagebrush Flat!
This. This is each how I feel as well. Stalking game to get closer is an important aspect of the hunt, one that is being lost right now in the age of extreme long range hunting. People aren't learning how to stalk and close the gap. They're only learning how to shoot. Great shooters, but not really anything on the woodsmanship side things.
I shoot long range, but it is what I did in the military. I hunt but I don't trophy hunt, I boar hunt with a .458. I don't use tree stands, and I don't bait. My dad and grandfather always said a real Hunter tracks and stalks.
excellent comment and also there are unclean kills at short range too don't forget to talk about that but it is my experience that every good hunter wants a clean one shoot kill so the animal does not suffer even at long range.
@@trev9874 at long range your time of flight and loss of energy is the main reason why it becomes unethical. There is no way you can predict animals movement and have very low chance of doing follow up shots
@@slipknnnot Hello I have hunted most of my life and I still stalk when its required but I disagree, their is a very particular skill involved in what I consider long range hunting. " not long range shooting" and like stalking it brings great reward and requires great skill and in my experience their are those that do not adhere to a standard or discipline . I do understand what you are trying to say but in my opinion you are wrong. and reading the comments there are some very stupid remarks made.
Well said. I have watched some of those videos and been disgusted. One in particular showed people baiting bears and shooting them in the ass at 700-800 yards and then they tout their "ethical kills". And God alone knows how many deer and elk have wandered away gutshot, never to be recovered. I love shooting long range for fun, and have spent countless hours practicing and working up loads to be as accurate as possible. But I can't imagine it being fun to shoot game at these distances. It would give me a hollow feeling inside. To me there is nothing like spending hours stalking a herd of antelope to 100 yards. Just to shoot a yearling doe in the head. Thank you for addressing the issue.
Shooting steal at over 1000 yards is one thing. Hunting at long range is another. With just shooting steal at long range over 1000 yards you can afford errors when it comes to game you can not afford to make any mistakes. The worst thing you can do is wound an animal. For most people as far as hunting is concerned you should Not even attempt to harvest game past 300 yards. If you are experienced and or have training I'll say 600 yards tops. After that there are way too many variables in your environment and there is a lot of math involved not to mention being squared away in your marksmanship skills. It's just that there are too many things that do go wrong in long range shooting in regards to hunting. I do have military training but I still have a lot to learn. I ain't gonna lie I did fall for the bs when I first started out. There is way too much hype about long range hunting. It will humble you and frustrate you. You quickly learn your limits. As a hunter it's your duty to harvest game cleanly and ethically.
Absolute agreement with you! When you spot your deer, elk, moose, anything at 700 yd, get down there and close your gap! You know, get down there and do some real hunting. And if he should turn and run off in this process, keep hunting. Enjoy the experience. Doesn't that sound nice? It sounds very nice to me!
Very well stated sir. I shoot at 1000 yards and beyond quite often. With that being said I could not agree more with the insanity of shooting at any game at those distances. It’s amazing how easy it is to miss by feet past 1000 yds with just mis reading the wind. I also don’t understand anyone wanting to carry all the extra gear hunting required to even make that cold bore shot possible. My main animal I hunt is deer since there are no elk here. Most of the time I’m hunting with either my 30-30 or my 45-70 both with iron sights all shots are less than 200 yds with 20 yds being about average.
One suggestion I would make for those that want to hunt at ranges beyond 400 meters. Try it out on steel targets first. There are classes you can take to train you how to shoot at that range, and if that interests you then go for it. But don't experiment on live animals. Do your experimenting on paper and steel. Also, don't go out and practice till you can hit a target ONCE at 1000 meters and then think you can hunt at those ranges. You need to get to the point where you CANT MISS, not to the point where you CAN HIT. One of the major skills of long range shooting is how to adjust your scope for all the variables. Those include wind, temperature, barometric pressure, elevation, and Coriolis effect. You need to practice that till you can get it right the first time, every time. So you need to test yourself on steel or paper targets by setting up a target, calculating all your offsets and taking a shot, and you need to hit every time without needing a sighting in shot first. You may practice at a 1000 meters one day and get to the point where you hit the target every time, but then you go out the next week and you cant hit it. The reason is the changing conditions. Many people think long range shooting is just the mechanical skills of shooting the rifle, but it isn't. The bullet will completely change its point of impact depending on whether its a cold morning or a hot afternoon. It changes the bullet muzzle velocity and therefore the bullet drop. So be ethical in your long range hunting, and make sure you can consistently hit a target with the first shot at that range before you try to take game at that range.
You failed to mention the supreme importance of bullet composition, sectional density, terminal energy, terminal velocity and maximum point blank range; then there’s the complications of recovery.
So called long range hunting is not ethical period. I don't care how much you train and think you can account for wind drift, you cannot account for time of flight and how much that animal can move during that bullet's time of flight. Learn some real hunting skills and quit using live animals for target practice.
I’ve never had any formal training on long range shooting, my father and grandfather always taught us gun safety and how to use them properly. I have a 30/06 savage model 110E that was in horrendous condition when I got it, I had to hand carve a new stock from a blank that I bought at a local store, had a gunsmith do the headspace for me when he bored the barrel and put a sleeve in. I started at 100 yards and within 2 years I was hitting the gong at 1000 yards at my gun range. Now I must admit I don’t feel confident shooting an animal beyond 500 yards, I am confident that I WILL hit that 1000 yard gong but I wouldn’t shoot at an animal beyond 500 yards. I have also learned how to work up my own loads, I purchased all the loading equipment and with zero training whatsoever I went on UA-cam and watched other guys and followed instructions with my load equipment. Now this has all been a hit and miss venture for me and I would say I am self taught but I can shoot long range confidently. I now have my fathers childhood rifle that’s a match to my own, his is a 30/06 savage 110, and now I have acquired a Winchester model 70 in .243, I’m working up loads for both of them, the 243 will be a varmint and deer rifle for me. 500 yards is my absolute max no matter what! And even that is a stretch and it has to be out in the open standing broadside! The vast majority of all my animals taken have been UNDER 200 yards. I get the point your bringing across, there is a lack of ethics out there these days and it is sad to see. I would also like to add that in ALL my interactions with the older generations of shooters and gunsmiths that not one single person has been willing to pass along their knowledge and teach a guy. I’ve known my gunsmith now for about 15 years and he will build whatever I want but he won’t teach me how to use it. I’m a very calm, quiet, patient, and humble man and have always sought to learn everything I can from every person I encounter in life but with nobody I have come across being willing to teach, and I’m not the only guy with this problem, I have had no choice but to learn through trial and error and what information I can absorb from the Internet. I’m 36, live in central Alberta Canada, grew up in southern BC in Nelson and have hunted all over BC and Alberta and in all my time not encountered one person who was willing to teach me, or even so much as throw some pointers a guys way..........the older generations don’t want to teach, that’s a problem for both ethics and shooting knowledge!
when I was a kid I got a 30-06 and started hunting ground hogs with it some of the farms where I hunted was huge and often I could get long shots of over 400 yards at ground hogs while hunting there I quickly learned alot about bullet drop .lol I always used the same 150 grain bullet for hunting grond hogs that I used during deer season and it helped me to become a much better shot with my old rifle and I got pretty good at sapping ground hogs out to around 450 yards out and the farmer had a huge Great Dane that would always follow me from his house across the fields when ever i got over there and went hunting he loved to eat the ground hogs that I shot .lol he was a big shiney jet black great dane and I fed him a many of wood chuck each summer.lol.varmint hunt with the same load you will deer hunt with it will help you become better at judging your bullet drop,and will also be able to see just how the bullet preforms on game at different ranges i love shooting the 243 and the 30-06 both are great hunting cal.
I respect your opinion. There is a great responsibility that comes with hunting. It starts with being honest about your realistic abilities and knowing your equipment. There is a point where you just can't account for all the conditions such as wind down range. Leave your ego at home and think about the one shot humane kill.
I only shoot paper or metal... If I were hunting, first criteria would be to be correctly effective and place a good shot, no chance of a wound and run. ... and then be able to retrieve it for meat without exasperation.
the hunts i remember to best for whitetails is the one where I spied a nice buck tending a Doe and stalked him and bagged him at 14 feet useing my old Lyman Great Plains RifleI kept the wind in my face and just inch wormed my way up the ridge .the hardest part was that there was 5 more Deer bedded down nearby and every now and again they would hear me moving and get nervous and moving slow I would cup my hand over my mouth while pinching my nose and bleat and this seemed to calm them ,then while watching them so I diddn't spook them I somehow lost track of the 8 pointer and the doe he was after then she came around a big boulder in front of me and walked right past me on a old deer path and she had that buck in tow i grunted at him just as he steped out from behind a huge beech tree.that was blocking my shot when that old 50 cal bellered he never flinched but just walked on towards the doe who had stopped and was waiting on him and I was busy un corking my powder horn and measureing out another dose of FFG for him but I diddn't need to his ol big Butt wobbled and he fell and that deers heart was in about 5 pcs. and the deer that was bedded down on my left got up and moved off out of sight over a small fold in the ridge and when my son came by to check on my shot I told him the little piebald deer he had said he wanted was with them just over the little hump he slipped over there and got that deer also and my nephew had got hisself a young doe that morning also and had her waiting at my pickup that morning we had 3 deer in the bed of my little chevy pick-uptruck ,so we headed into town to check in the deer at the check station and get a coke and cheese burger and start hanging and skinning deer and have some backstraps and Biscuits.
Randy: I was at sportsman's Warehouse in bend Oregon the other day, the salesman is old and he was telling me that the Nosler designer who designed the long-range accubond said it's unstable past 700 yds don't use it.... The standard nosler accubond is fine. Does this make any sense to you or any other long-range shooters out there???
Absolute truth! As a hunter in west central indiana, most of our shots at whitetail deer are within 300 yards. Personally, I try to get as close as possible before firing. And I've had deer close enough I can hear them breath. These guys that wanna brag about shooting out past 1000 yards....save it. You wanna impress me, I say get up close and personal. But, that's just my take on it. I mean no disrespect. Thank you, sir, for another great video.
I love it when a deer or other game animal is close enough to you to hear it breathe or the crunching of it eating acorns or what not. I prefer to get close as possible. That is where the skill comes into play in hunting. People wanting to shoot game at 1000 yards just don't know how to hunt. They give hunting a bad name.
i may just be an old fart but i grew up being taught how to hunt by stalking and tracking. reading the wind, trying to outsmart the game on their own turf. that is what hunting is at least to me. i am all for being able to shoot a target ( not game ) at 1000 + yards and advocate a person's right to do that if they so desire . however, please do not confuse hunting with shooting. i really think that that same person who tries to take game at excessive ranges probably has little to no skill as a hunter / tracker.
I think the same. It’s why I switched from a compound bow back to a recurve several years ago. Staking, trying to actually hunt the game is a greater skill that clanging steel at 1000 yards.
All these one shot "kills" that drop on the spot are nothing but a spine shot that does nothing but wound the animal and prolong its suffering until they can finally get close enough (or shoot enough bullets) to finish it off. Complete and utter BS that most people unfortunately eat right up.
Absolutely spot on!! Long range shooting IMO is NOT ethical hunting. Free chase hunting means giving the animal a fair chance of escape, and using your hunting skills to stalk in close and make a humane kill. 👍
Just got back from the outdoor expo in Salt Lake City. The number of booths occupied by start up “custom long range hunting rifle” builders is startling. Poorly machined actions and readily available carbon barrels bedded in composite stocks is exhaustive. Saddens me to see hunting reduced to a low commercial level.
@@stillbill1878 Yet you still whine. We get it, your mad others do not play by your rules, get the fame, praise, attention and bag more game. You need to stop the hatingg, and start bettering yourself.
I've been watching a ton of videos about 1000 yard milk jug challenge. Many, many, expertly trained and sponsored shooters on a range shooting a milk jug. Almost none of them can hit it the first shot. Most cant hit it in the first 5 shots. To sell a hunter a rifle and say 1000 yards out of the box is laughable. A lot of the guys doing the shooting will say if you don't have paper to walk your shot in that it's almost impossible to make a shot like that if you cant see your previous misses and make corrections. The fact that your zero is constantly changing because of various reasons. Its nothing short of bold faced lies!!
Totally agree. Of course one should constantly practice marksmanship with your rifle, familiarise yourself with the capabilities of your rifle and ballistics of your cartridge. However, hunting is about fieldcraft, stalking and putting your bullet exactly in the kill zone. Respect for the game is paramount!
Im 41 i started shooting competitive at 12. I shot muzzleloaders and bpcr, anywhere from a backwoods range in tn to Walter cline range for the nationals at friendship. live on a 600 acre farm in in middle tn and hunting has always been a way of life. I work for twra (tn wildlife resource agency). I don't typically comment on video's or in forums but when I do it's usually on snipers hide or long range hunting which is why I am banned from both. I don't know everything about shooting, reloading, hunting etc but I do know enough to know when I'm knee deep in bullshit and enough to know when to shut up and listen. You sir as long as your talking I'll b listening.
I used to shoot competition for the United States Army, including overall winner of the Infantry Trophy Team Match as a swing man. I am not sure how many rounds we shot per year, many thousand at least, and each of those bullets took concentration because missing the center of a target was not an option including rapid fire, let alone missing the entire target. We shot every day excluding some weekends off occasionally. With iron sights it is difficult to read the wind especially in open country with no dust, snow or leaves on trees indicating what was happening between me and what I was shooting at. I have used a scope at long range to read the wind, and at ranges beyond 300 yards I have often seen air currents moving in three to five different directions. If I could not accurately read that wind my bullet would simply be pushed away from what I was shooting at, and if I did that I would not have been shooting competition for the U.S. Army very long, I would have been sent back to the infantry unit I came from. This was before the age of hand held devices that used an application to provide shooting data in order to get close to or on the target. In a nut shell the above sounds simple, however, it was a great deal of hard work and dedication and some may have gotten tired of the tedium. Every single bullet that went down range had a great deal of thought and concentration behind it. Yes, acquired muscle memory and other factors were in the mix, however, that did not excuse me or anyone else that were master shooters of not putting great mental effort into every shot. I had a friend that used to go on hunting trips to Canada to take big game. Knowing my background he came to me one day and asked for my help on where to hold his specific rifle and ammo type at other than a known 200 yard range. I gave him an explanation and realized he had become agitated; I gave him too much information. He had hunted for years and had no clue how to take large game beyond 200 yards. So, I had to dumb down the information to the point a four year old child could understand and hoped that would be enough and that he would never try to take large game much beyond 250 yards. As you know, the NRA and other shooting organizations have done a fine job of training hunters and shooters, unfortunately there are millions of citizens in the U.S. that do not avail themselves of even basic professional training, and it is a sad thing indeed. Millions of people think they know "enough" when in actuality they have no clue. Keep up the good work. EDIT: I forgot to add the following as an example of an individual in need of professional help that uploaded a video. ua-cam.com/video/do_5DCiHqqU/v-deo.html
I agree! There is no correlation between hunting and long range shooting. Hunting request sacrificing time to get in close without being detected. Most people out there can’t hit a dinner plate 3 consecutive times at 300 yards. Stalking your selected game animal to 30 to 50 yards requires more skill than just sitting behind a rifle.
@@henrysmith7276 ‘hungry’ is subjective and in the context of time matters not at all just like being cold…and some point you’ll warm up, if not, you’ll just die. But, if you survive you really weren’t that cold in the first place.
@@richardkramer1094 ...Anyone who claims hunger is subjective has never been, for if he was he would know its bitter bite and seek to avoid it at what ever cost.
@@richardkramer1094 If you have to be told what hunger is its clear you are a bad actor playing the "what does X mean" game and a clear sign you have lost the debate. Maybe your word games can keep you company nin place of meat that was lost because you want to be extra moral and limit your abilities.
This man is wise and correct! I admit I was drawn into the excitement of drilling some long range shots on elk..but the first hunt I tried a Berger target bullet..the vld was a taret load a few years ago...but it blew up on the shoulder of my bull at 500 yards and never went past the blade...3 miles later I shot him again and I've decided something so majestic demands more respect...we should shoot better on animals than we can on paper...and there aren't any bullets truly designed to kill elk at close and far distance...the energy is too different and the bullet either blows up too fast at close range or pencil punches far out and doesn't mushroom because of lack of energy...even if we can shoot good enough...we don't have bullets that perform good enough on thicker skinned critters and we should be more resposible.
Berger makes a Hunting bullet. I dropped a cow Elk at 422 yards with 1 shot with a 280 Ackley Improved. I also trained a lot and did load development before the hunt. The rifle was also built by Phoenix Custom Rifles. The cow Elk was hit with an estimated energy of 2084 ft. lbs. I do not consider 422 yards to be long range. USMC vet. arizonahunting.net/cowelk.htm
Thomas Jochum that's great. I've killed one cow elk that dropped at 502 with a Berger and I thought all was good and got ready for my bull elk hunt. As I stated earlier it blew up on the bulls shoulder. There's no doubt sometimes it will kill an elk...but also if you hit bone, those bullets lose all ability to penetrate...even Berger says not to shoot the shoulder blade. But that's ridiculous because hitting bone and pushing it through lungs is the fastest way to drop an animal. I've shot many elk 7 cow elk and a bull...being from Utah my bull tags take a while to draw for...I've had more mishaps from this bullet in a 300 win mag than good experiences. I'm glad your a vet, so is my husband and well, a former marine but that doesn't have anything to do with this bullet's performance. If you want to learn more about bullets...start casting and using dies with jackets...it is amazing what you learn when you start becoming willing...hope you enjoy your hunting. I do feel this bullet does well on whitetail tho...it pounds mule deer and if you hit the shoulder you lose most a quarter on the far shoulder. When it comes out in a spread like a small basketball when hitting a rib on a deer...well, elk are much bigger, more dense, and harder skinned. It truly isn't fair to that majestic animal to risk having the bullet blow up prematurely. If you think you are right, call Berger, ask them if they recommend shooting a bull elk in the shoulder under 500 yards...Most people shoot under that....they will tell you not to do that. Well, their bulletsmiths have said this to me.
These are simple cup and draw target bullets put in an orange box for "hunting" but no different than their target bullets. Hundreds of failures using them have been reported to me, and that has to be just a small segment of what is happening. A game bullet they are not. Period. Sierra makes match target bullets and they don't sell them as hunting bullets. Same bullet with different profile as their competitors, but they aren't marketing it for something it isn't.
Thank you so much for this. I enjoy long range shooting at steel and paper targets, but under no circumstances would I attempt to take game at those distances. I'm only a couple of yrs younger than you, and I grew up hunting deer in North Dakota with a Marlin 336 30-30 with aperture sights at distances of 100-150 yards. Even when I had better and more accurate rifles later on, I still didn't hunt at longer ranges than 200 or so, I just figured that was far enough, and the better equipment just allowed me to place a shot more accurately with less chance of losing a wounded animal.
Enormous respect for having the courage to tackle such a controversial topic in modern day hunting. Long range shooting has become in vogue nowadays, clips of people hitting game at 800 to 1000 yards is common. That to me though is not hunting. You haven't properly stalked the animal and gotten closer to it. Like anyone else I can appreciate good marksmanship, but shooting at an animal at such a far distance, is disrespectful to the animal and ruins the image of hunters as a group. The animal has absolutely no chance to see, hear or smell you at that distance. This is not hunting, it is not fair chase; it is the antithesis of hunting, and something which only serves to inflate the ego. I just hope more hunters out there who abide by fair chase start actively discouraging such type of shooting.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 I respectfully disagree. Fair Chase is a huge factor in sport hunting. Ethics will always be a factor when it comes to sport hunting. Everyone can close the distance to get within range. I'm not saying that people should only shoot out to 200 yards, but 900, 1,000 or 1200 yards? Anyone can get closer than that, and if it's completely not possible, a hunter should be ethical enough to know that the game is out of range. Super Long range hunting and the degradation of ethics seem to go hand in hand.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 1200yds isn't alway out of range and if you think it is you need to stop watching this joker and read about modern rifle and chamberings there are a lot of modern rounds that can do it and ethics doesn't mean you have to stalk ambush hunting is a viable option.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 again, I respectfully disagree. Yes, I am well aware of modern cartridges and rifles. But technology has it's limits. Some people have no problem using drones for hunting. That is 100% modern technology, yet many of us view that as unethical and not sporting by any means. Yes, I believe that 1200 yards is too far to ethically harvest a game animal. At extremely long ranges, the hunter possesses am unfair advantage over the quarry he is pursuing. That is pretty much what Boone and Crocket Club says regarding Fair Chase. IMHO, just because one can ring steel at, say, 1700 yards, doesn't mean they should shoot a game animal that far. Shooting steel targets and shooting live game animals are not the same thing. They're two separate and different sports. Just my honest opinion. Ethics and sportsmanship should always be integral in hunting, yet I feel like more and more hunters don't care about ethics whatsoever. Which I find troubling and sad.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 if you can consistently deliver a clean kill than it is ethical. Im not out there to give the deer an advantage in there to get meat, getting close to not give yourself an advantage is what dangerous game hunting is for.
Great video - well stated. Back in the early '80's, when I first started varmint hunting, the "challenge" amongst my more experienced fellow hunters (who were teaching me the ropes) was to see how distant a shot could be taken while getting a "clean kill". I shot a 22-250 handloaded to provide 5/8" MOA (10 rounds, from the bench) and found that I had no technical problems whatsoever making clean kills on coyotes out to 350-400 yards. However, during one hunt a fellow hunter downed a coyote at 300 yards plus using a 223 Rem and although it appeared to be a clean kill when viewed through my Leupold 6.5x20 (I was spotting the shot), when we reached the animal it was still breathing although downed - my friend then immediately dispatched it with another shot. It was obvious that the animal had been suffering and that was the last time that I participated in any hunt that did not involve either a stalk up to within less than 50 yards or elsewhere calling (either lip-squeaking or hand-calling) once again within 50 yards or less. Close-in stalking/calling involves more hunting skills and is significantly more ethical as opposed to taking long shots simply to prove how "good" a shot, one supposedly is.
Yes Sir you have hurt some Egos here . Velocity it takes to open a hunting bullet is what is most important saying 2000 FPS is minimum to produce proper expansion that should determine your longest distance to take game ethically .
Thanks, Randy, for backing up with facts, what most should intuitively know. Anyone who has simply tried to work up a precision load at only a hundred yards, knows that things like mirage can significantly affect the size of the groups obtained. If you can't read the mirage correctly, you can't shoot to the potential of the rifle. I know because I can't read it. A guy can have perfect technique and if he can't deal with wind, mirage, & yes, even the rotation of the earth, he can't reliably hit at extended ranges. One of these guys put out a video where he took a factory rifle, tuned it a little, and using non-specifically developed ammunition, concluded his demo with a shot at a basketball sized rock at 1300+ yards. Remembering P.T. Barnum about now.
I really respect him, but I think he's discounting the availability of precision engineering today. It takes a good engineer with the right equipment to design and manufacture precision rifles. If the rifle is well engineered and built, with methodical load development .5MOA can be regularly achieved, if not expected. If you have an accurate measure of variables like air temperature, pressure, humidity, etc, trajectory can be accurately predicted. That's the science of it which can't be disputed. There are many companies who can get that accuracy on a regular basis. Now, whether you take that and apply it to game is another story. First and foremost, like Randy says, you have to operate within the performance limits of your projectile. After that, only the shooter can determine whether the combination of his own error, errors in estimating and measuring environmental variables, and variances in the condition of the rifle bore will give him an acceptable degree of certainty to make the shot. That acceptable degree of certainty is what we call "ethics". For me, I don't pull the trigger on big game unless I'm certain that the bullet will land in the vitals and pass through on the first shot "beyond a reasonable doubt", near close to 100%.
Technology should have it's limits for hunting though. Ethics has to do with it a lot, and skill still is King. Too many hunters are relying on technology as a crutch. Woodsmanship is taking a back seat to technology, and find that concerning.
I grew up hunting and fishing all the continents with my parents who were true international big game sport hunters and fishermen. I'm now 75 years old and I still thrill to the challenge of the "fair chase" of wary game animals. The dubious "sport" of attempting to drop a big game animal at extreme distances is questionable at best. Yes, it is possible . . . however, at what expense? Is the life, and more probable the wounding, of a majestic game animal of such nebulous value that one's ego overrides the virtues of "fair chase" . . . a value that have been held dear by true sportsmen for eons. Nothing wrong with trying to prove you can punch a hole in a milk jug at 1,000 yards, or more, but why subject one of our majestic big game animals to the statistical fate that a throw away plastic jug faces!
Very well put! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your invaluable experience with us. The majority of the feedback we are receiving agree with us.
Hi I must say this is one of the best videos I`v seen in a wile. And it`s a heads up for the normal Joe spending time on youtube or forums reading or watching longrange hunting. I`m a part of a benchrest and f-class club. From time to time we get other hunter and shoters come shoot whit us. Not to long a go a yunger hunter came and shot whit us and used my 6,5x47 Lapua. He shot ok after som pointers out to 300m But what`s bad are he coplaned that he ceap missing shots at foxes at past 250m. I asked him what gun and scope and ammo he used, gear was bad ammo was the lowest price and he had no ide on groop sizes on 250m. But when pople see the videos to meny times they think it`s normal to shoot beond what they can mange whit the gun, ammo and scope they have. And the abilety they have. Most of my guns shoots 1/2 moa 5 shoot groops. I stil dont hunt at ranges over 5-600m Most shoots are under 150m.
Always give your game a chance. My grandfather taught me that you always have to outwit the animal and sneak up on them. He was against stand hunting or 400 yard shots.
Long range hunting has, indeed, gotten out of control today. Jack O'Conner said the average hunter has no business using anything over a 4X scope. Here in the southeast, where the practical and average shot is about 100 yards, we have dudes (and bubbas) with trumpets mounted to their rifles thinking they're Quigley Down Under.
I love it brother, amen! This is a horse that could never be beat to death! You keep saying your peace. I have grown up around guns, particularly bolt action rifles. And my wonderful father taught me to shoot those guns with accuracy and consistency. But more than that he taught me how to hunt. I can say that on most days I have the capability to match distances with anybody I know. But with our precious game, I stay well within my capability, choosing far lesser distances than what I'm able to kill at. There are quite a few reasons actually that I choose this but the most important of them are: I don't want to have a downed range air movement that I misjudge that leads to the wounding of God's blessed bountiful offering to me. The second reason is that I like to hunt. Real hunting. That's it...
Without being an expert, but hunting all my life, plus reloading all my life, I know you are right. By the time you do a 1000 yard shot, bullet energy is down to such a minimal amount it's like shooting game with a 22 lr, or even something smaller. Wind effects also, are unpredictable. So anyone that says your wrong truly doesn't know what they are talking about. THE MAIN THING HERE IS THE FACT THAT NO TELLING HOW MUCH GAME IS WOUNDED AND ESCAPES TO DIE SOME OTHER PLACE NEVER TO BE RECOVERED. Those long range shots should be left at the target range.
I think he's more saying if you're not properly trained and have your skills tuned then don't shoot if you can't shoot sub moa at 100 then your not going to be ethically capable of shooting game at 500 yards stick to paper
bullet flight time .. 3 to 5 seconds .. the dead on heart shot just hit the hind end of your game because something spooked it at the trigger break ...
I do not know the bullet, velocity, cartridge, density altitude , or distance but at 900yds a 210 vld hunting from a 300 win mag going 2980 time of flight at 1521 DA is 1.16 seconds
you should if shooting it .. know your ammo .. last deer season it was a doe .. quarter away at the trigger break .. my 270 win reload at 2800 fps from book .. SP 130 gr ( where i hunt is max 300 ) i don't need the extra recoil for max load .. 30 yrds away . .. i shot .. it turned at the break .. my shot when in at the rear of the right side ribs .. broke a few .. skipped a few and got a few more ribs and into the shoulder all the same side .. i was shooting for a in on the right and out on the left shoulder . didn't happen .. but 5 steps and deer down .. .. button buck .. .. what was the flight time on that shot ?? it could have been just wounded without knowing your bullet /ammo .. ( gameking 130gr SP ) crap can happen even at 30 yrds ..
true I wear plenty of blaze orange when I am hunting were folks are shooting long range,once watched a man wearing a tan jacket running thru a field and jumping over brush at around 400 yards he had about the same motion as a deer and it was dusk dark around sun set and he had a white tee shiet on under his tan jacket ,at first I thought for sure it was a deer jumping around and running down the hill jumping over the green biars and bushes i watched him in my field glasses ,just to make sure he diddnt get killed .some folks do some crazy stuff once I was watching a pine thicket and seen some white flashing every now and then in it and i just knew it was a deer so i just kept watching and shortly a big turkey flew up out of the pines and sailed off over my head ,but the white kept flashing around in those pines and shortly a man wearing a green jacket and wearing a white UVA hoodie came into veiw and when he seen my blaze orange he walked over to me and asked if I had seen that big turkey that I had flushed up lol i laughed and told him that I had but that I had been watching him and when he asked why I pointed and told him that white shirt was showing up real good while he was messing around in that patch of pines down below and I had thought he was a deer moving around down there.also told him he was gonna get killed wearing it and to take it off and stuff it in a pocket or throw it away and go put on a blaze orange hat or vest or stay outta the woods because he was gonna get hurt wearing white and the state law requires all hunters to wear blaze orange when you are in the woods during firearms deer season here,he had a funny look on his face when I told him that I thought for sure that he was a deer crawling around in that pine thicket,and he shed that crazy sweatshirt.lol
Your right about the difficulty and years of training sniper platoons . All we done more than anything is running everywhere we went. No laggards ever made it through.
Good lord this guy is really full of himself. I have no doubt that he is a smart man when it comes to rifles but he sure acts like his way is the only way.
I would recommend learning how to hunt with a bow first like I did as a kid, thereby forcing the best stalking and still-hunting skills no matter what you hunt with. There are people with egos that their brain can’t manage. If they know about bullet composition, sectional density, maximum point blank range and wound channels, but still shoot big game beyond the cartridge/bullet’s limits, they are indeed irresponsible and unethical fools, not hunters.
The issue we have in hunting ethics today has absalutely ZERO to do range, range is just an easy scapegoat since it's easy to put a line on, ethical hunting ends at 30 yards, 300 yards or 600 yards, it's an easy comfortable benchmark that has nothing to do with ethically taking game!! I've seen gutt wrenching horrific things done to animals at close range, the lack of empathy and ethical behavior was sickening yet by these standards of range they would have been ethical clean kills. How many time do we hear the story of emptying a gun on a record book animal then going up to see if we hit it and considering it luck if it was dead, how horrifying yet praised as ethical, how is that? One of the current record deer died in a hail of gunfire from a totally in adequate chambering, if that same deer was taken at 800 yards cleanly with one round it would be denied entry based on ethics, how is going gunsmoke on a deer to get lucky more ethical than doing the work to take that animal with one clean round?I would submit the slob animal wounding troll we all should hate who slings bullets at long range was the SAME slob animal wounding troll at close range. It seems the real obsession is range not ethical behavior or cleanly taking game.
If you can't hit a penny at 100 yards coldbore, then forget about long long range shooting. This is exactly why I don't do it. I always keep my shots inside of 300 for my non magnums and 350 for my magnums. These types of shots are only taken from an improvised rest because I don't tote them there shooting sticks when hunting. Never have had never will.
Old guys or galls who know a hell of a lot more than me.i am really trying with my 30 06. Im breaking clay pigons at 150-200 yards almost every time. Is that an acceptable acuracy to take deer. Or should i be able to hit somthing smaller every time to consider it a good acceptable placement to take the game. Im trying to figure out an acceptable outer limit. I know the round will do its part at that range as i have no desire to take elk. However wight tail/mule dear are a eventual goal. I can hit this well with many light conditions as well as with considerable wind. I guess that dosent mean much at thouse distances but as i say i am really trying though. Well please let me know. Its hard to take the step up between a 22lr/223 to a 30 06. I am just trying to get over the adrenaline of the much bigger boom.
You are definitely doing the right thing. Keep it up. The practice, practice and more practice in the non-hunting situations, in many positions will help, and when it comes to taking your game you won't notice the "boom" effect nearly as much. Good shooting!
forrest If you can hit a 4 " clay every time at 200 you are good to hunt deer to 200 yards. Thats a good poke. Ive only shot a few deer and hogs over 200. Im not going to shoot too far. I like to find my deer and eat it. Not just punch a tag for a set of horns 6 hrs later after coyotes eat his hams out. 200 yards is plenty good bud. Go hunting and learn..
I hunt in NC and most shots are under 100 yards. Every time I take a magnificent white tail (doe or buck...I'm a meat hunter) I feel poorly for a bit as I say thanks for my bounty. To shoot at long ranges and wounding or causing an animal to suffer would be the end of me. I have absolute respect for these animals. Great thoughts Randy. I totally agree with your thoughts!
Very well said Mr. Selby, I couldn't agree with you more. I have taken several animals as a hunter (whitetail, black bear and rabbits) and the farthest shot I've taken was acctually this year on my biggest whitetail to date, a long shot at 77 yards with my muzzleloader. A 16 pointer that I had chased the woods of my hometown for 4 full deer seasons, an absolute old Canadian giant. This was also the first time I had every laid eyes on him other than in hundreds of trailcam photos. I couldn't imagine taking a 300 or 400 yard shot at such an animal. Long range hunting is not my idea hunting. Hunting to myself is about getting as close to the game as I possibly can, not sitting in the truck seat, driving the roads and spotting from a far then seeing if I can hit the prey with my factory rifle. Its just common sense to me as a hunter, get up close and take away much of the potential error that can be there with the longer range. I love this channel. Keep up the terrific work sir, I'll be watching. Thanks
you have taken several game...good for you..I have taken 100s of game and many have been long range....well over 800 yards....some as close as 4 yards...and often times I could not get closer that 400-500 yards.....franking I think you and the OP are too big for your britches ..
dave maher just interested what would make me to big for my britches? Because I agreed with Mr. Selby's statement. I am very capable of shooting long range, but I choose not too on game, so that makes me to big for my britches? You may be very comfortable at taking game at the distances you have stated, as well as many others are I'm sure. In the opening statement of his video he said that the long range is ego driven, I guess this is where you would fit into the statement made in Mr. Selby's video. So I've gone ahead and subscribed to your channel, so I can see some of these long range kills you're touting about. Why don't you post some so me and the other 8 subscribers can watch all of your shots. Nice chatting with you.
avid huntr1016 based on what you stated. You sad long range is not hunting. I’m guessing you are a eastern hunter. I could degrade your style as well... climbing into a tree stand waiting for a deer to wonder by is not hunting. Where I hunt I have to hike in 2-3 miles with a 40 pack. Glass up a deer and stalk him. Many times across a 400 yard canyon ......so why not stop with the bashing and support hunters. I have hunted in the east and taken hundreds of deer from a tree stand and I have hunted out west and I can tell you it is far far more difficult to hunt out west and shoot a deer 400yards than it is to sit in a tree stand and shoot them.
@@Nightmarehc130 I see what both of you are saying. I too am a western hunter, and I know full well that sometimes a long shot is all that is available. I personally believe that hunters can get within 300 yards most of the time, with a few exceptions for longer 400, 500, and even 600 yard shots. But everyone can get closer than 1000 yards, with any game animal. Just my take. And I think that is what the OP was directing his rant towards.
Trained or not taking game at these ridiculously long ranges is NOT hunting its shooting and there is a major difference! Now that its "the cool" thing to do everyone thinks they're a pro and it's disgusting. if you're not ethical enough to get within a reasonable distance you shouldn't be hunting to begin with! GREAT VIDEO!
I use 7x57's and 257 Roberts because they're easily effective to 200yds. Do these calibers work past my personal 200yd limit? Of course, but I want to make sure the deer is down and recovered. Ego shots almost always lead to extra work and aggravation.
They are monons who think they can build load and shoot any kind of rifle, long distance or not. If you are going to kill anything at whatever distance you tend to kill that animal, you better have practiced a lot. Long Range hunting is here to stay, but the ones that are good believe in top of the line guns and ammo to do it. Lb/sq inch of bullet impact is more important than what you use. Like your vid. WHAT MAKES ME CRAZY is people buying airguns and going out and killing wild pigs and deer and proclaiming they can kill these animal humanly. They are full of crap.
You said everything I was thinking myself. My grandfather always preached and practiced. Get as close to the animal to make the cleanest shot you can an out the animal out of their misery as quick as you can.
I wouldn't even consider pulling the trigger unless it was Within 4 to 500 yards it's not that I couldn't hit it it's just that I couldn't guarantee a first shot kill. If you've ever heard the term clean kill that's exactly what this gentleman is talking about. Don't put the animal through needless misery.
*Depending on the mass of the animals and projectile design, at least @1000 ft. lbs. of Terminal (Kinetic) Energy (TE,) and .201 Sectional Density (SD) are considered the minimum limits to kill deer sized game. At least @1800 ft. lbs. of TE and .250 SD are considered the minimum limits to kill Elk sized game.* Minimum Terminal Velocity (TV) is ignored, as it's highly dependent on bullet design and material; Cup and Core lead will require much less velocity to adequately expand- @1800 fps than a solid copper bullet- @2400 fps. Regardless, I'm going to show that valuing SD and TE over Ballistic Coefficient (BC) on cartridge boxes will give a hunter more realistic bullet choices better suited for hunting. There is long range shooting, and then there is hunting, but they do not mix very well for big game. High Ballistic Coefficients (BC's) dominate paper target shooting, but are much less relevent to living big game animals even at Maximum Effective Range (MER.) *Refer to the first three lines above,* as *TE, SD and TV determines bullet penetration, expansion and humane kills, which subsequently defines MER.* As the TE and TV potential to humane kills decreases per yard down range, they eventually reach a point of critical TE/TV deficiency- running out of the ability to humanely kill before the bullet reaches the point down range where a BC's Return-of-Benefit would begin; thus BC is only useful outside of hunting ranges, beyond @500 yards- the greatest MER attainable for most high performing big game hunting cartridges for class-3 game (elk.) *Again, refer to the first three lines above.* SD (Diameter to Weight) of the projectile is a product of one constant- bullet dimensions, which gives a constant value, as weight-to-diameter never changes from muzzle to impact; *it enables relevant comparisons between bullet makes and models.* BC however, is a product of variables- atmospherics, rotation/stabilization and velocity, and is vital to compare and measure for target shooting, which is *far beyond practical hunting MER's.* SD is more relevant to TE than BC for big game hunting at standard MER's because *it is a measurement of potential penetration vital for big game hunting* *(Again, refer to the first three lines above,)* but not relevant to target shooting. The following is an exerpt from a Chuck Hawks article that is poignant as to why SD and TE are the most important stats on a cartridge box: "The higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force within a smaller area (diameter) of the target. For example, if all variables are equal, a 180 grain 7mm bullet with an SD of .319 will penetrate better than a 180 grain 8mm bullet with an SD of .246. The best way to compare different calibers is by SD, not bullet weight. For example, the .270 Winchester and .30-06, which are based on the same case, can both shoot 150 grain bullets. However, the 150 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .226) is best used for Class 2 (deer size) game, while the 150 grain .270 bullet (SD .279) is more appropriate for Class 3 (elk size) game. The 150 grain .270 bullet should actually be compared to the 180 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .271), as both of these bullets are appropriate for Class 3 game in their respective calibers and boast similar SD's. This is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets." Here are some typical small game, varmint and small predator (Class 1) hunting bullets with their sectional densities: Diam. Cal. Weight Sectional Density .172" (.17) 20 grain, SD .097 .172" (.17) 25 grain, SD .121 .204" (.20) 33 grain, SD .113 .204" (.20) 40 grain, SD .137 .222" (.22LR) 40 grain, SD .116 .224" (5.56mm) 45 grain, SD .128 .224" (5.56mm) 50 grain, SD .142 .224" (5.56mm) 55 grain, SD .157 .224" (5.56mm) 60 grain, SD .171 .224" (5.56mm) 68 grain, SD .194 .243" (.24) 58 grain, SD .140 .243" (.24) 75 grain, SD .181 .243" (.24) 80 grain, SD .194 .257" (.25) 75 grain, SD .162 .257" (.25) 87 grain, SD .188 Looking at those figures illustrates why the military has had so much problem with the penetration of 5.56mm NATO (.223 Rem.) bullets in combat. Human beings are Class 2 size animals and none of these .224" bullets have adequate SD for the job, let alone for penetrating barrier materials and light armor. It also shows why none of these varmint weight bullets, regardless of the velocity at which they can be driven, should never be used to shoot deer and other medium size game animals. Here are some typical hunting bullets and their sectional densities that are recognized as effective for medium size big game animals (Class 2), such as deer, antelope, sheep and goats: Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density .243" (6mm) 90 grain, SD .218 .243" (6mm) 95 grain, SD .230 .243" (6mm) 100 grain, SD .242 .257" (.25) 100 grain, SD .216 .257" (.25) 117 grain, SD .253 .264" (6.5mm) 120 grain, SD .247 .264" (6.5mm) 125 grain, SD .256 .277" (.270) 120 grain, SD .223 .277" (.270) 130 grain, SD .242 .284" (7mm) 130 grain, SD .230 .284" (7mm) 140 grain, SD .248 .308" (7.62mm) 150 grain, SD .226 .308" (7.62mm) 160 grain, SD .241 .312" (.303) 150 grain, SD .220 .321" (.32 Spec.) 170 grain, SD .236 .323" (8mm) 150 grain, SD .205 .323" (8mm) 180 grain, SD .246 .338" (.338) 180 grain, SD .225 .358" (.35) 180 grain, SD .201 .358" (.35) 200 grain, SD .223 .375" (.375) 235 grain, SD .239 .458" (.45-70) 300 grain, SD .204 As you can see, all of the above have a sectional density of at least .201 and the average is in the .23's. All of the small bore calibers (.32 and smaller) have SDs of at least .205. This is the kind of SD you should look for in a bullet for medium game. For large (Class 3) game, such as red stag, kudu, eland, elk and moose anywhere in the world, bullets with higher sectional density should be chosen. Good examples of such bullets would be: Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density .264" (6.5mm) 140 grain, SD .287 .277" (.270) 140 grain, SD .261 .277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279 .284" (7mm) 150 grain, SD .266 .284" (7mm) 154 grain, SD .273 .284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283 .308" (7.62mm) 170 grain, SD .256 .308" (7.62mm) 180 grain, SD .271 .312" (.303) 180 grain, SD .266 .323" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274 .338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250 .338" (.338) 210 grain, SD .263 .338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281 .348" (.348 Win.) 250 grain, SD .295 .358" (.35) 225 grain, SD .251 .358" (.35) 250 grain, SD .279 .366" (9.3mm) 250 grain, SD .267 .366" (9.3mm) 270 grain, SD .288 .375" (.375) 270 grain, SD .274 .377" (.38-55) 255 grain, SD .256 .458" (.45) 400 grain, SD .272 All of the bullets immediately above have a sectional density of at least .250 and most exceed .270. Bullets of this sectional density, if adequately constructed, have proven able to penetrate deep into large game animals. I did a quick survey of the hunting bullets with SD's over .300 available in common factory loads and to the reloader in the various rifle calibers. These are the top calibers and bullet weights for maximum penetration. In medium and big bore calibers (.33+), they have proven adequate for hunting thick-skinned dangerous game (Class 4): Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density .264" (6.5mm) 160 grain, SD .328 .284" (7mm) 180 grain, SD .333 .308" (7.62mm) 200 grain, SD .301 .308" (7.62mm) 220 grain, SD .331 .312" (.303) 215 grain, SD .316 .323" (8mm) 220 grain, SD .301 .338" (.338) 250 grain, SD .313 .366" (9.3mm) 286 grain, SD .305 .375" (.375) 300 grain, SD .305 .416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330 .458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341 .474" (.470 NE) 500 grain, SD .318 .509" (.500 NE) 570 grain, SD .314 Most people will not be surprised to find the heavy .33 to .50 caliber bullets on the above list. However, many may be surprised to find that heavy weight bullets for the small bore 6.5mm, 7mm, .30, .303 and 8mm calibers are right in there with the best medium and big bore bullets in terms of SD. This may help explain why these small bore calibers are so penetration-to-recoil versatile.
could not be better said. I do wish I could get a rifle built by you that would be a rifle that could be passed generation to generation enjoy your knowledge and have respect thank you
I agree with you, I shoot paper at a 1000 often, last time out on a constant decent wind I got 8 V-Bulls out of ten, 32 clicks of windage. Time before with a weak inconsistent wind Had I been shooting at a deer, I'd have injured it more times than killed it. That's why I wouldn't shoot game over 500 and even then conditions would need to be good. I don't like injuring animals, those that shoot animals over 500 and say they don't ever injure animals are liars.
With no experience at all I put together a Savage Weather Warrior chambered in 7mm mag. I screwed on a Pacnor 27" barrel, glass bedded it with Devcon metal epoxy on a laminated thumb hole stock. Headspace was set with two pieces of Scotch tape on a case. Cold bore shot with follow up shot, 1/2 MOA very repeatable out to 1100 yards and I don't know jack. I have hurt more animals under 100 yards that over 600 yards. A snap shot at 40 yards is hands down the most unethical shot in history. "Oh I must have missed.", the shot could have hit it anywhere. We all have done it. Randy Newburg said it best, be as lethal as possible. Get as close as possible is the best advice. You have a good message, but these new rifles from nobody can be great. The male being is fueled by ego or do you just intentionally shoot the smallest animal possible to avoid showing your buddies a stellar pic of a toad? Every shooter out there is flawed in one manor or another.
Few take terminal ballistics into consideration. I remember when that dentist from Minnesota got in hot water from shooting that lion with a bow and arrow, and he prided himself on being able to hit a deck of cards at 100 yards. Never mentioned a word about whether or not that arrow was able to penetrate to the lion's vital at that range. I guarantee a lion's hide, bones and flesh protecting heart and lungs is thicker than a deck of cards.
Moral of the story be a better hunter and to cherish and respect our wildlife , love this channel , echoes of my grandfather, well said sir , much respect
When I grew up, target shooting was a means to develop ethical & effective hunting. We all wanted to be great American hunters. Now everyone wants to be the great American sniper. Hunting & sniping, are different things & have very different end goals.
The perfect example of a true hunter can be given the old 30-30 with 170 gr bullets and go out and spot the animal he or she wants to take will get within 100 yards and less and wait for the perfect shot and have the confidence in the gun to make the best shot and most ethical hit a killing the animal quick. That would be a true hunter in my opinion.
It can be hard enough to find a critter when you shoot them at normal yardages. Compounding that trouble makes no sense. If it takes you fine or ten minutes to set up and take the first shot. How in the world could you take/make a follow up shot or four if needed ?
I really enjoy your videos. I reload , target shoot and hunt here in WV all my life . I’ve been going to Colorado every other year elk hunting on public land . I’ve loaded my 300 win mag with 180 accubond. I’ve never been lucky enough to get with in range of a legal bull yet though . I think my preferred shot be anything under 300 yards . I practice out to 600 here at home but I feel 400 would be my very longest shot I’d consider but preferably one day I’ll get a shot one 300 or under .
Where is your evidence? Show me documentation that the film is doctored, put your money up, prove it...irritates me no end when someone sits there and pontificates... doesn't show evidence just "MY" experience....and slanders and attacks...where is your evidence...show me quantified numbers...prove your statement about the "MANY" lost animals...
As for documentation, the man filming the first 1 1/2 years of video was the videographer, turned his stomach, but he had a job in an area good paying jobs were hard to find and a growing family to feed. He was told how to edit the videos I mention and told me step by step how he was told to do it. He made sure before starting work for us that we'd not ask him to doctor video. I state exactly what I see and document for myself. Get your fanny off of the couch, cover the ground my sons and I have in THIS area over 72 years and there you have it, Bob's your uncle.
@@TheRealGunsmith Well since you are claiming game wastage as well, which is against the law anywhere I have hunted then you are both obligated to present this evidence to the proper authorities...I saw or I heard without presenting documentable evidence is worth absolutely nothing and can be considered slander in a court if law...so again present your legitimate evidence for all of us to review and for law enforcement to investigate...otherwise your statements and claims are worth absolutely zero...
Only thing I shoot at past 350 is steel, mainly because I’m not that good of a shot to one-shot drop an animal beyond that distance, consistently. If I can’t get the clean kill, best to wait until I can.
I figure the reason for putting long distances between yourself and your target is because the target is dangerous. Like a soldier. Sniping a deer at 400 plus yards seems nutty to me, hilarious even. I could see doing it with a big nasty boar, but I think real skill is about how close you can sneak up to a really skittish creature like a deer and kill it.
Thank you very much for this video. I appreciate your insight regarding a subject that I feel is not boding well for the long term benefit of our sport. I have been against this super long range hunting fad for a while now. I find it neither ethical nor sporting. Our technology has made such a huge leap during the past decade, and with it I feel like hunting ethics have been tossed right into the garbage can. I have even heard people throwing around the term "relative ethics". That is disheartening to hear. I was raised by my father to always be respectful and ethical to both the game we are chasing as well as towards fellow sportsmen. Today, in the age of self centered individuals with planet sized egos, that mentality seems to be diminishing. I mean come on, we have guys who defend the use of drones while hunting. In the age of Outdoor television, which is littered with slick advertising to be the biggest and the baddest Billy Badass on the block, anything goes if it means notching a tag. Including shooting over the head of another hunter, because screw him, he's trying to get YOUR deer, you know, the one that you are obviously entitled to kill. There are a few guys I still enjoy watching on TV, such as Jim Shockey and Randy Newberg. They're both model sportsmen who always display a high level of ethical conduct while hunting. But I feel like most 'hunters' today could care less about having good ethics. To them, all that matters is killing the animal. That's it. I was taught that if you killed something every single time you went hunting, it would be called killing, not hunting. Seems like guys today are more than eager to change that, utilizing every modern advantage to kill game at 1900 yards. They remind me of the market hunters from the late 1800s who nearly wiped out the bison populations. I'm sure those guys also had the same "relative ethics" mindset. I will always ensure an ethical and sporting shot on a game animal, but really I feel like it's a lost cause, and guys like us are being shoved into a back corner in a dark room, because we're standing in the way of the future of hunting. Which is relying on every technological crutch possible and be completely devoid of woodsmanship skills and ethical behavior. Sad really, because I see it as the end of hunting as we know it. Tags will become harder to draw and there will be less game animals to go around. With people sniping them at ungodly distances, game departments will have to restrict tags sold, because hunter success is going to start getting near a number where the game populations will be wiped out if they don't restrict the number of tags made available.
How you doing sir?I own a 6.5 creedmoor and been looking at 140 grain nosler accubond. Can I take elk at 300 yards or less ?I can't see shooting passed that.What is your take on this caliber for deer mule deer and pronghorn?Thanks for your time and answers.
This is a smart man.. And your right 600 is a HUGE shot.. but Im from the south east. 300 is a long shot. Too much can happen. Stuff you dont see. Im not wounding up my deer. Ive raised them too long and got way too much love for them. People just care about trophy now. And are willing to break rules of ethics. Ive only met one man hes in mid Ga has a 800 yard range that shoots all the time. He can hunt to 600 -800 but hes the only one Ive seen do it well... Others loose game all the time..
Randy, in another one of your videos on long range hunting, you noted the US military has forsaken the .308 (7.62, actually) in favor of the more recent 6.5 Creedmoor. A retired Army officer, I do not know that to be factual; but I will accept your word on it. If true, the reasoning will not be what it seems and what you infer. There is a monumental difference in objectives in military marksmanship and hunting! One objective is to dispatch an animal cleanly and quickly; another objective may be to stop a threat or to incapacitate a subject, on the prospect that two or more additional combatants will aid the wounded and thus be rendered ineffective in the engagement (Army speak).
Thanks for the overwhelming response to this video, as well as our other videos on The Real Gunsmith Channel! We appreciate your comments and questions. Due to the volume of the comments and questions, some which would take some time to answer, we just don’t have the time to respond to them all. However many of the questions will be answered in future videos.
Our first priority is to our paying clients. Writing out long answers would take time away from that, and I won’t put them “on hold” to post long answers here.
If you have questions about getting gun work done or a custom rifle built, contact us at randyselby@randyscustomrifles.com. I have a wide range of prices for custom rifles so even the “average Joe or Josephine” can get into a custom package, just as accurate as the higher end rifles.
For our detractors, we appreciate your difference of opinion, too, but I stand by my decades of experience.
To all of you, thanks again for your overwhelming support. Stay tuned! God bless you all. Randy and Cathy
I have so much respect for you Randy. I could not agree more. We should always look to put an animal down in front of our eyes and know the capabilities of our cartridge and rifle package.
The Real Gunsmith people watch movies like shooter and sniper and think” I can do that too”. And with no training, knowledge of ballistics ,or ethics. They try this nonsense out on our game. I have lost count of how many injured animals I’ve seen over the years from people whom are inexperienced and insist on hunting anyways.
I believe they lack the discipline it takes as well as the respect to harvest game the proper way . Thank you for your videos. Hopefully this information sinks in for some of these people. Merry Christmas you you and your family :)
Ever stop to think maybe we do not lack ethics but you lack skill and confideince to pull off such shots?
@@henrysmith7276 What cartridge and bullet do you use in these shots?
I really enjoy them, lots of good info!! Thank you!
To me the joy and art of hunting is being as close to game as possible and therefore insuring a precise kill shot.
I was taught to stalk as close as possible to set up for the most humane shot
West Desert Shooter, this gentleman is referring to hunting and taking game, not general long range shooting. His entire message is about hunting ethics do's and don't. Many internet vids out there unfortunately sensationalized and even encourage that game can be taken at extremely long range.
Thanks!
Here is a story your dont often hear about on the internet. A few years back my one of my friends drew a Bull Elk tag in Arizona and I offered to help guide. We hunted a heavily wooded and mountainous area of the unit and spotted herd (about 10) of elk through a small break in the woods on a hill across from us. The herd bull (6x6) clearly stood out. I ranged the bull at 680 yards. This bull was magnificent ! Although it was temping to take a shot.. it was clearly unethical. His rifle was a Remington 700 3006 loaded with Barnes 180 grain TSX. His rifle was capable... however his scope had no hold over marks for this range. On top of this it would have been a standing off hand shot ..due to being on a steep hill and the elk never stopped moving! To be clear.. there was no tree nearby to lean against and if you got down on a knee or went prone you couldn't see them. We didn't want risk wounding it or hitting a cow. Too many condtions were against us. We opted to move closer in the direction they walked but the herd moved away and it was the last we saw of them.
@@uspatriot7777 that's good you passed that shot 700 is a long poke I could pull it off but not under the circumstances you described Good call on passing on that one!
instead of complaining about what other people aren't or are doing.... he could encourage to hunt predators, like he was saying in another video, is the main problem that put a large dent in game population.
@@ralphditore1319 He wasn’t complaining, he was defining hunting ethics based on the limitations of the cartridge/bullet and recovery conditions.
I've been hunting for 35 years, I've killed deer, elk, antelope at various ranges from 50 yards out to 400. I've killed deer with the 223 , 22-250 and upto 45-70. I calculated out of all the animals I've killed the average distance was 200 yards or less. As a young man I was taught to get as close as possible to the game no matter what cartridge was used. Hell I killed a mature Mule Deer buck at 110 yards at a full run with my 1898 US Springfield 30-40 Krag, I was as proud as one could get at that shot with the original military sights.
One of the best parts about hunting is trying to figure out how to get close enough to make a good ethical kill. Not making videos called "12 year old whacks trophy Bull at 1206 yards!"
Excellent comment. I commented on that particular video. What is that young man going to learn from that experience other than laziness? Drive to the field, walk maybe 100 yards in street clothes to snipe at majestic game?
I shot my first Muley Buck at somewhere between 200 & 250 yds using a Lever-Action Marlin 30-30 with Iron Sights at about 300 yds! It took 2 shots because he was on a dead run, the 1st shot missed the 2nd took him down hard! The round I was using was a 180grn pill called a Saber Tip shooting across a Sagebrush Flat!
This. This is each how I feel as well. Stalking game to get closer is an important aspect of the hunt, one that is being lost right now in the age of extreme long range hunting. People aren't learning how to stalk and close the gap. They're only learning how to shoot. Great shooters, but not really anything on the woodsmanship side things.
High Plains Drifter Yeah, I had been following this guy all morning trying to get close and when the opportunity presented itself I struck!
I shoot long range, but it is what I did in the military. I hunt but I don't trophy hunt, I boar hunt with a .458. I don't use tree stands, and I don't bait. My dad and grandfather always said a real Hunter tracks and stalks.
excellent comment and also there are unclean kills at short range too don't forget to talk about that but it is my experience that every good hunter wants a clean one shoot kill so the animal does not suffer even at long range.
I'm definitely jealous. I bet that is a blast both literally and figuratively.
@@trev9874 at long range your time of flight and loss of energy is the main reason why it becomes unethical. There is no way you can predict animals movement and have very low chance of doing follow up shots
@@slipknnnot
Hello I have hunted most of my life and I still stalk when its required but I disagree, their is a very particular skill involved in what I consider long range hunting.
" not long range shooting" and like stalking it brings great reward and requires great skill and in my experience their are those that do not adhere to a standard or discipline .
I do understand what you are trying to say but in my opinion you are wrong.
and reading the comments there are some very stupid remarks made.
There are far more unethical short-range hunters than long-range hunters.
100% true!!
My experience too
For every one 600 yard kill you see on UA-cam 100 cripple shots weren't uploaded
Well said. I have watched some of those videos and been disgusted. One in particular showed people baiting bears and shooting them in the ass at 700-800 yards and then they tout their "ethical kills". And God alone knows how many deer and elk have wandered away gutshot, never to be recovered. I love shooting long range for fun, and have spent countless hours practicing and working up loads to be as accurate as possible. But I can't imagine it being fun to shoot game at these distances. It would give me a hollow feeling inside. To me there is nothing like spending hours stalking a herd of antelope to 100 yards. Just to shoot a yearling doe in the head. Thank you for addressing the issue.
Very well said, long range should be left at the range....
Yep, the closer you get the better the experience
Long range shooting should be done for fun or in a war to kill your enemies, it does not belong hunting and harvesting animals
Shooting steal at over 1000 yards is one thing. Hunting at long range is another. With just shooting steal at long range over 1000 yards you can afford errors when it comes to game you can not afford to make any mistakes. The worst thing you can do is wound an animal. For most people as far as hunting is concerned you should Not even attempt to harvest game past 300 yards. If you are experienced and or have training I'll say 600 yards tops. After that there are way too many variables in your environment and there is a lot of math involved not to mention being squared away in your marksmanship skills. It's just that there are too many things that do go wrong in long range shooting in regards to hunting. I do have military training but I still have a lot to learn. I ain't gonna lie I did fall for the bs when I first started out. There is way too much hype about long range hunting. It will humble you and frustrate you. You quickly learn your limits. As a hunter it's your duty to harvest game cleanly and ethically.
You are spot on, these longrange wannabe hunters are not hunting!
Agreed they probably aren’t good at camouflaging or stalking hence why they feel the need to be 500+ yds out
Absolute agreement with you! When you spot your deer, elk, moose, anything at 700 yd, get down there and close your gap! You know, get down there and do some real hunting. And if he should turn and run off in this process, keep hunting. Enjoy the experience. Doesn't that sound nice? It sounds very nice to me!
"They are not hunting because they refuse to do things my way"....No, your just a moralist hack.
"I will never change my mind about what I know" says about everything one needs to know about someone's ability to learn and understand.
Very well stated sir. I shoot at 1000 yards and beyond quite often. With that being said I could not agree more with the insanity of shooting at any game at those distances. It’s amazing how easy it is to miss by feet past 1000 yds with just mis reading the wind. I also don’t understand anyone wanting to carry all the extra gear hunting required to even make that cold bore shot possible. My main animal I hunt is deer since there are no elk here. Most of the time I’m hunting with either my 30-30 or my 45-70 both with iron sights all shots are less than 200 yds with 20 yds being about average.
One suggestion I would make for those that want to hunt at ranges beyond 400 meters. Try it out on steel targets first. There are classes you can take to train you how to shoot at that range, and if that interests you then go for it. But don't experiment on live animals. Do your experimenting on paper and steel. Also, don't go out and practice till you can hit a target ONCE at 1000 meters and then think you can hunt at those ranges. You need to get to the point where you CANT MISS, not to the point where you CAN HIT. One of the major skills of long range shooting is how to adjust your scope for all the variables. Those include wind, temperature, barometric pressure, elevation, and Coriolis effect. You need to practice that till you can get it right the first time, every time. So you need to test yourself on steel or paper targets by setting up a target, calculating all your offsets and taking a shot, and you need to hit every time without needing a sighting in shot first. You may practice at a 1000 meters one day and get to the point where you hit the target every time, but then you go out the next week and you cant hit it. The reason is the changing conditions. Many people think long range shooting is just the mechanical skills of shooting the rifle, but it isn't. The bullet will completely change its point of impact depending on whether its a cold morning or a hot afternoon. It changes the bullet muzzle velocity and therefore the bullet drop. So be ethical in your long range hunting, and make sure you can consistently hit a target with the first shot at that range before you try to take game at that range.
You failed to mention the supreme importance of bullet composition, sectional density, terminal energy, terminal velocity and maximum point blank range; then there’s the complications of recovery.
So called long range hunting is not ethical period. I don't care how much you train and think you can account for wind drift, you cannot account for time of flight and how much that animal can move during that bullet's time of flight. Learn some real hunting skills and quit using live animals for target practice.
I’ve never had any formal training on long range shooting, my father and grandfather always taught us gun safety and how to use them properly. I have a 30/06 savage model 110E that was in horrendous condition when I got it, I had to hand carve a new stock from a blank that I bought at a local store, had a gunsmith do the headspace for me when he bored the barrel and put a sleeve in. I started at 100 yards and within 2 years I was hitting the gong at 1000 yards at my gun range. Now I must admit I don’t feel confident shooting an animal beyond 500 yards, I am confident that I WILL hit that 1000 yard gong but I wouldn’t shoot at an animal beyond 500 yards. I have also learned how to work up my own loads, I purchased all the loading equipment and with zero training whatsoever I went on UA-cam and watched other guys and followed instructions with my load equipment. Now this has all been a hit and miss venture for me and I would say I am self taught but I can shoot long range confidently. I now have my fathers childhood rifle that’s a match to my own, his is a 30/06 savage 110, and now I have acquired a Winchester model 70 in .243, I’m working up loads for both of them, the 243 will be a varmint and deer rifle for me. 500 yards is my absolute max no matter what! And even that is a stretch and it has to be out in the open standing broadside! The vast majority of all my animals taken have been UNDER 200 yards. I get the point your bringing across, there is a lack of ethics out there these days and it is sad to see. I would also like to add that in ALL my interactions with the older generations of shooters and gunsmiths that not one single person has been willing to pass along their knowledge and teach a guy. I’ve known my gunsmith now for about 15 years and he will build whatever I want but he won’t teach me how to use it. I’m a very calm, quiet, patient, and humble man and have always sought to learn everything I can from every person I encounter in life but with nobody I have come across being willing to teach, and I’m not the only guy with this problem, I have had no choice but to learn through trial and error and what information I can absorb from the Internet. I’m 36, live in central Alberta Canada, grew up in southern BC in Nelson and have hunted all over BC and Alberta and in all my time not encountered one person who was willing to teach me, or even so much as throw some pointers a guys way..........the older generations don’t want to teach, that’s a problem for both ethics and shooting knowledge!
when I was a kid I got a 30-06 and started hunting ground hogs with it some of the farms where I hunted was huge and often I could get long shots of over 400 yards at ground hogs while hunting there I quickly learned alot about bullet drop .lol I always used the same 150 grain bullet for hunting grond hogs that I used during deer season and it helped me to become a much better shot with my old rifle and I got pretty good at sapping ground hogs out to around 450 yards out and the farmer had a huge Great Dane that would always follow me from his house across the fields when ever i got over there and went hunting he loved to eat the ground hogs that I shot .lol he was a big shiney jet black great dane and I fed him a many of wood chuck each summer.lol.varmint hunt with the same load you will deer hunt with it will help you become better at judging your bullet drop,and will also be able to see just how the bullet preforms on game at different ranges i love shooting the 243 and the 30-06 both are great hunting cal.
I respect your opinion. There is a great responsibility that comes with hunting. It starts with being honest about your realistic abilities and knowing your equipment. There is a point where you just can't account for all the conditions such as wind down range. Leave your ego at home and think about the one shot humane kill.
I only shoot paper or metal... If I were hunting, first criteria would be to be correctly effective and place a good shot, no chance of a wound and run. ... and then be able to retrieve it for meat without exasperation.
Excellent comment
300yards and no further in my book!
Thanks Randy, you are the best.
Where is the sport in killing an animal from a distance, that has no chance of detecting you?
the hunts i remember to best for whitetails is the one where I spied a nice buck tending a Doe and stalked him and bagged him at 14 feet useing my old Lyman Great Plains RifleI kept the wind in my face and just inch wormed my way up the ridge .the hardest part was that there was 5 more Deer bedded down nearby and every now and again they would hear me moving and get nervous and moving slow I would cup my hand over my mouth while pinching my nose and bleat and this seemed to calm them ,then while watching them so I diddn't spook them I somehow lost track of the 8 pointer and the doe he was after then she came around a big boulder in front of me and walked right past me on a old deer path and she had that buck in tow i grunted at him just as he steped out from behind a huge beech tree.that was blocking my shot when that old 50 cal bellered he never flinched but just walked on towards the doe who had stopped and was waiting on him and I was busy un corking my powder horn and measureing out another dose of FFG for him but I diddn't need to his ol big Butt wobbled and he fell and that deers heart was in about 5 pcs. and the deer that was bedded down on my left got up and moved off out of sight over a small fold in the ridge and when my son came by to check on my shot I told him the little piebald deer he had said he wanted was with them just over the little hump he slipped over there and got that deer also and my nephew had got hisself a young doe that morning also and had her waiting at my pickup that morning we had 3 deer in the bed of my little chevy pick-uptruck ,so we headed into town to check in the deer at the check station and get a coke and cheese burger and start hanging and skinning deer and have some backstraps and Biscuits.
Thanks for sharing! Now I am hungry!!
The solution to a 1,000 yard shot is to get 800 yards closer.
Randy: I was at sportsman's Warehouse in bend Oregon the other day, the salesman is old and he was telling me that the Nosler designer who designed the long-range accubond said it's unstable past 700 yds don't use it.... The standard nosler accubond is fine. Does this make any sense to you or any other long-range shooters out there???
Absolute truth! As a hunter in west central indiana, most of our shots at whitetail deer are within 300 yards. Personally, I try to get as close as possible before firing. And I've had deer close enough I can hear them breath. These guys that wanna brag about shooting out past 1000 yards....save it. You wanna impress me, I say get up close and personal. But, that's just my take on it. I mean no disrespect. Thank you, sir, for another great video.
I love it when a deer or other game animal is close enough to you to hear it breathe or the crunching of it eating acorns or what not. I prefer to get close as possible. That is where the skill comes into play in hunting. People wanting to shoot game at 1000 yards just don't know how to hunt. They give hunting a bad name.
i may just be an old fart but i grew up being taught how to hunt by stalking and tracking. reading the wind, trying to outsmart the game on their own turf.
that is what hunting is at least to me.
i am all for being able to shoot a target ( not game ) at 1000 + yards and advocate a person's right to do that if they so desire . however, please do not confuse hunting with shooting.
i really think that that same person who tries to take game at excessive ranges probably has little to no skill as a hunter / tracker.
I think the same. It’s why I switched from a compound bow back to a recurve several years ago. Staking, trying to actually hunt the game is a greater skill that clanging steel at 1000 yards.
All these one shot "kills" that drop on the spot are nothing but a spine shot that does nothing but wound the animal and prolong its suffering until they can finally get close enough (or shoot enough bullets) to finish it off. Complete and utter BS that most people unfortunately eat right up.
Absolutely spot on!! Long range shooting IMO is NOT ethical hunting. Free chase hunting means giving the animal a fair chance of escape, and using your hunting skills to stalk in close and make a humane kill. 👍
Just got back from the outdoor expo in Salt Lake City. The number of booths occupied by start up “custom long range hunting rifle” builders is startling. Poorly machined actions and readily available carbon barrels bedded in composite stocks is exhaustive. Saddens me to see hunting reduced to a low commercial level.
Do better or stop whining.
Nothing better than the truth.
@@stillbill1878 Yet you still whine. We get it, your mad others do not play by your rules, get the fame, praise, attention and bag more game. You need to stop the hatingg, and start bettering yourself.
I've been watching a ton of videos about 1000 yard milk jug challenge. Many, many, expertly trained and sponsored shooters on a range shooting a milk jug. Almost none of them can hit it the first shot. Most cant hit it in the first 5 shots. To sell a hunter a rifle and say 1000 yards out of the box is laughable.
A lot of the guys doing the shooting will say if you don't have paper to walk your shot in that it's almost impossible to make a shot like that if you cant see your previous misses and make corrections. The fact that your zero is constantly changing because of various reasons. Its nothing short of bold faced lies!!
Totally agree. Of course one should constantly practice marksmanship with your rifle, familiarise yourself with the capabilities of your rifle and ballistics of your cartridge. However, hunting is about fieldcraft, stalking and putting your bullet exactly in the kill zone. Respect for the game is paramount!
Im 41 i started shooting competitive at 12. I shot muzzleloaders and bpcr, anywhere from a backwoods range in tn to Walter cline range for the nationals at friendship. live on a 600 acre farm in in middle tn and hunting has always been a way of life. I work for twra (tn wildlife resource agency). I don't typically comment on video's or in forums but when I do it's usually on snipers hide or long range hunting which is why I am banned from both. I don't know everything about shooting, reloading, hunting etc but I do know enough to know when I'm knee deep in bullshit and enough to know when to shut up and listen. You sir as long as your talking I'll b listening.
I used to shoot competition for the United States Army, including overall winner of the Infantry Trophy Team Match as a swing man. I am not sure how many rounds we shot per year, many thousand at least, and each of those bullets took concentration because missing the center of a target was not an option including rapid fire, let alone missing the entire target. We shot every day excluding some weekends off occasionally. With iron sights it is difficult to read the wind especially in open country with no dust, snow or leaves on trees indicating what was happening between me and what I was shooting at. I have used a scope at long range to read the wind, and at ranges beyond 300 yards I have often seen air currents moving in three to five different directions. If I could not accurately read that wind my bullet would simply be pushed away from what I was shooting at, and if I did that I would not have been shooting competition for the U.S. Army very long, I would have been sent back to the infantry unit I came from. This was before the age of hand held devices that used an application to provide shooting data in order to get close to or on the target.
In a nut shell the above sounds simple, however, it was a great deal of hard work and dedication and some may have gotten tired of the tedium. Every single bullet that went down range had a great deal of thought and concentration behind it. Yes, acquired muscle memory and other factors were in the mix, however, that did not excuse me or anyone else that were master shooters of not putting great mental effort into every shot.
I had a friend that used to go on hunting trips to Canada to take big game. Knowing my background he came to me one day and asked for my help on where to hold his specific rifle and ammo type at other than a known 200 yard range. I gave him an explanation and realized he had become agitated; I gave him too much information. He had hunted for years and had no clue how to take large game beyond 200 yards. So, I had to dumb down the information to the point a four year old child could understand and hoped that would be enough and that he would never try to take large game much beyond 250 yards.
As you know, the NRA and other shooting organizations have done a fine job of training hunters and shooters, unfortunately there are millions of citizens in the U.S. that do not avail themselves of even basic professional training, and it is a sad thing indeed. Millions of people think they know "enough" when in actuality they have no clue.
Keep up the good work.
EDIT: I forgot to add the following as an example of an individual in need of professional help that uploaded a video. ua-cam.com/video/do_5DCiHqqU/v-deo.html
There is no need for a scope greater than 10x if you taking game within 400 yards max.
Everybody is a sniper these days ...posting videos of 800 yard shots, or hunting with a 338 lapua magnum for white tail ...it’s sad to watch
I agree! There is no correlation between hunting and long range shooting. Hunting request sacrificing time to get in close without being detected. Most people out there can’t hit a dinner plate 3 consecutive times at 300 yards. Stalking your selected game animal to 30 to 50 yards requires more skill than just sitting behind a rifle.
Spoken like a man who never went hungry.
@@henrysmith7276 ‘hungry’ is subjective and in the context of time matters not at all just like being cold…and some point you’ll warm up, if not, you’ll just die. But, if you survive you really weren’t that cold in the first place.
@@richardkramer1094 ...Anyone who claims hunger is subjective has never been, for if he was he would know its bitter bite and seek to avoid it at what ever cost.
@@henrysmith7276 define ‘hunger’!
@@richardkramer1094 If you have to be told what hunger is its clear you are a bad actor playing the "what does X mean" game and a clear sign you have lost the debate. Maybe your word games can keep you company nin place of meat that was lost because you want to be extra moral and limit your abilities.
This man is wise and correct! I admit I was drawn into the excitement of drilling some long range shots on elk..but the first hunt I tried a Berger target bullet..the vld was a taret load a few years ago...but it blew up on the shoulder of my bull at 500 yards and never went past the blade...3 miles later I shot him again and I've decided something so majestic demands more respect...we should shoot better on animals than we can on paper...and there aren't any bullets truly designed to kill elk at close and far distance...the energy is too different and the bullet either blows up too fast at close range or pencil punches far out and doesn't mushroom because of lack of energy...even if we can shoot good enough...we don't have bullets that perform good enough on thicker skinned critters and we should be more resposible.
THANK YOU! Well reasoned and well said. Good shooting!
Berger makes a Hunting bullet. I dropped a cow Elk at 422 yards with 1 shot with a 280 Ackley Improved. I also trained a lot and did load development before the hunt. The rifle was also built by Phoenix Custom Rifles. The cow Elk was hit with an estimated energy of 2084 ft. lbs. I do not consider 422 yards to be long range. USMC vet. arizonahunting.net/cowelk.htm
Thomas Jochum that's great. I've killed one cow elk that dropped at 502 with a Berger and I thought all was good and got ready for my bull elk hunt. As I stated earlier it blew up on the bulls shoulder. There's no doubt sometimes it will kill an elk...but also if you hit bone, those bullets lose all ability to penetrate...even Berger says not to shoot the shoulder blade. But that's ridiculous because hitting bone and pushing it through lungs is the fastest way to drop an animal. I've shot many elk 7 cow elk and a bull...being from Utah my bull tags take a while to draw for...I've had more mishaps from this bullet in a 300 win mag than good experiences. I'm glad your a vet, so is my husband and well, a former marine but that doesn't have anything to do with this bullet's performance. If you want to learn more about bullets...start casting and using dies with jackets...it is amazing what you learn when you start becoming willing...hope you enjoy your hunting. I do feel this bullet does well on whitetail tho...it pounds mule deer and if you hit the shoulder you lose most a quarter on the far shoulder. When it comes out in a spread like a small basketball when hitting a rib on a deer...well, elk are much bigger, more dense, and harder skinned. It truly isn't fair to that majestic animal to risk having the bullet blow up prematurely. If you think you are right, call Berger, ask them if they recommend shooting a bull elk in the shoulder under 500 yards...Most people shoot under that....they will tell you not to do that. Well, their bulletsmiths have said this to me.
It'd be sad if you paid 1500 bucks and because of bullet selection the next time you don't bring home the animal.
These are simple cup and draw target bullets put in an orange box for "hunting" but no different than their target bullets. Hundreds of failures using them have been reported to me, and that has to be just a small segment of what is happening. A game bullet they are not. Period. Sierra makes match target bullets and they don't sell them as hunting bullets. Same bullet with different profile as their competitors, but they aren't marketing it for something it isn't.
Thank you so much for this. I enjoy long range shooting at steel and paper targets, but under no circumstances would I attempt to take game at those distances. I'm only a couple of yrs younger than you, and I grew up hunting deer in North Dakota with a Marlin 336 30-30 with aperture sights at distances of 100-150 yards. Even when I had better and more accurate rifles later on, I still didn't hunt at longer ranges than 200 or so, I just figured that was far enough, and the better equipment just allowed me to place a shot more accurately with less chance of losing a wounded animal.
Enormous respect for having the courage to tackle such a controversial topic in modern day hunting. Long range shooting has become in vogue nowadays, clips of people hitting game at 800 to 1000 yards is common. That to me though is not hunting. You haven't properly stalked the animal and gotten closer to it. Like anyone else I can appreciate good marksmanship, but shooting at an animal at such a far distance, is disrespectful to the animal and ruins the image of hunters as a group. The animal has absolutely no chance to see, hear or smell you at that distance. This is not hunting, it is not fair chase; it is the antithesis of hunting, and something which only serves to inflate the ego. I just hope more hunters out there who abide by fair chase start actively discouraging such type of shooting.
Its not about fair chase its about getting meat in the freezer.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 I respectfully disagree. Fair Chase is a huge factor in sport hunting. Ethics will always be a factor when it comes to sport hunting. Everyone can close the distance to get within range. I'm not saying that people should only shoot out to 200 yards, but 900, 1,000 or 1200 yards? Anyone can get closer than that, and if it's completely not possible, a hunter should be ethical enough to know that the game is out of range. Super Long range hunting and the degradation of ethics seem to go hand in hand.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 1200yds isn't alway out of range and if you think it is you need to stop watching this joker and read about modern rifle and chamberings there are a lot of modern rounds that can do it and ethics doesn't mean you have to stalk ambush hunting is a viable option.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 again, I respectfully disagree. Yes, I am well aware of modern cartridges and rifles. But technology has it's limits. Some people have no problem using drones for hunting. That is 100% modern technology, yet many of us view that as unethical and not sporting by any means. Yes, I believe that 1200 yards is too far to ethically harvest a game animal. At extremely long ranges, the hunter possesses am unfair advantage over the quarry he is pursuing. That is pretty much what Boone and Crocket Club says regarding Fair Chase. IMHO, just because one can ring steel at, say, 1700 yards, doesn't mean they should shoot a game animal that far. Shooting steel targets and shooting live game animals are not the same thing. They're two separate and different sports. Just my honest opinion. Ethics and sportsmanship should always be integral in hunting, yet I feel like more and more hunters don't care about ethics whatsoever. Which I find troubling and sad.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 if you can consistently deliver a clean kill than it is ethical. Im not out there to give the deer an advantage in there to get meat, getting close to not give yourself an advantage is what dangerous game hunting is for.
Great video - well stated. Back in the early '80's, when I first started varmint hunting, the "challenge" amongst my more experienced fellow hunters (who were teaching me the ropes) was to see how distant a shot could be taken while getting a "clean kill". I shot a 22-250 handloaded to provide 5/8" MOA (10 rounds, from the bench) and found that I had no technical problems whatsoever making clean kills on coyotes out to 350-400 yards. However, during one hunt a fellow hunter downed a coyote at 300 yards plus using a 223 Rem and although it appeared to be a clean kill when viewed through my Leupold 6.5x20 (I was spotting the shot), when we reached the animal it was still breathing although downed - my friend then immediately dispatched it with another shot. It was obvious that the animal had been suffering and that was the last time that I participated in any hunt that did not involve either a stalk up to within less than 50 yards or elsewhere calling (either lip-squeaking or hand-calling) once again within 50 yards or less. Close-in stalking/calling involves more hunting skills and is significantly more ethical as opposed to taking long shots simply to prove how "good" a shot, one supposedly is.
Yes Sir you have hurt some Egos here . Velocity it takes to open a hunting bullet is what is most important saying 2000 FPS is minimum to produce proper expansion that should determine your longest distance to take game ethically .
Except sometimes even at close range controlled expansion bullets don't open up , so who's better off ?.??
Bobby Jo Rogers you saved me from having to say it! Thank you!
Agree with the message whole heartedly but I gotta say "experience" shouldn't be confused with "skill"
Thanks, Randy, for backing up with facts, what most should intuitively know. Anyone who has simply tried to work up a precision load at only a hundred yards, knows that things like mirage can significantly affect the size of the groups obtained. If you can't read the mirage correctly, you can't shoot to the potential of the rifle. I know because I can't read it. A guy can have perfect technique and if he can't deal with wind, mirage, & yes, even the rotation of the earth, he can't reliably hit at extended ranges. One of these guys put out a video where he took a factory rifle, tuned it a little, and using non-specifically developed ammunition, concluded his demo with a shot at a basketball sized rock at 1300+ yards. Remembering P.T. Barnum about now.
Putting Gunwerks and Best of the West on blast, I love it.
Rifle hunters don't seem to want to stalk into effective kill range anymore. It's a lose of hunting skills..
Not all rifle hunters, but it is a growing trend.
I really respect him, but I think he's discounting the availability of precision engineering today. It takes a good engineer with the right equipment to design and manufacture precision rifles. If the rifle is well engineered and built, with methodical load development .5MOA can be regularly achieved, if not expected. If you have an accurate measure of variables like air temperature, pressure, humidity, etc, trajectory can be accurately predicted. That's the science of it which can't be disputed. There are many companies who can get that accuracy on a regular basis.
Now, whether you take that and apply it to game is another story. First and foremost, like Randy says, you have to operate within the performance limits of your projectile.
After that, only the shooter can determine whether the combination of his own error, errors in estimating and measuring environmental variables, and variances in the condition of the rifle bore will give him an acceptable degree of certainty to make the shot.
That acceptable degree of certainty is what we call "ethics". For me, I don't pull the trigger on big game unless I'm certain that the bullet will land in the vitals and pass through on the first shot "beyond a reasonable doubt", near close to 100%.
Technology should have it's limits for hunting though. Ethics has to do with it a lot, and skill still is King. Too many hunters are relying on technology as a crutch. Woodsmanship is taking a back seat to technology, and find that concerning.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 "Tech should have its limits"....Ah...That isnt how it works.
I grew up hunting and fishing all the continents with my parents who were true international big game sport hunters and fishermen. I'm now 75 years old and I still thrill to the challenge of the "fair chase" of wary game animals. The dubious "sport" of attempting to drop a big game animal at extreme distances is questionable at best. Yes, it is possible . . . however, at what expense? Is the life, and more probable the wounding, of a majestic game animal of such nebulous value that one's ego overrides the virtues of "fair chase" . . . a value that have been held dear by true sportsmen for eons.
Nothing wrong with trying to prove you can punch a hole in a milk jug at 1,000 yards, or more, but why subject one of our majestic big game animals to the statistical fate that a throw away plastic jug faces!
Very well put! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your invaluable experience with us. The majority of the feedback we are receiving agree with us.
Hi I must say this is one of the best videos I`v seen in a wile.
And it`s a heads up for the normal Joe spending time on youtube or forums reading or watching longrange hunting. I`m a part of a benchrest and f-class club. From time to time we get other hunter and shoters come shoot whit us. Not to long a go a yunger hunter came and shot whit us and used my 6,5x47 Lapua. He shot ok after som pointers out to 300m But what`s bad are he coplaned that he ceap missing shots at foxes at past 250m. I asked him what gun and scope and ammo he used, gear was bad ammo was the lowest price and he had no ide on groop sizes on 250m. But when pople see the videos to meny times they think it`s normal to shoot beond what they can mange whit the gun, ammo and scope they have. And the abilety they have.
Most of my guns shoots 1/2 moa 5 shoot groops. I stil dont hunt at ranges over 5-600m Most shoots are under 150m.
Always give your game a chance. My grandfather taught me that you always have to outwit the animal and sneak up on them. He was against stand hunting or 400 yard shots.
Long range hunting has, indeed, gotten out of control today. Jack O'Conner said the average hunter has no business using anything over a 4X scope. Here in the southeast, where the practical and average shot is about 100 yards, we have dudes (and bubbas) with trumpets mounted to their rifles thinking they're Quigley Down Under.
In my 65 years of life, I've become suspicious of people who continually use the word "I" in their conversations.
"My" and "I've".....
Sir, You brung a tear to my eyes knowing Good people like YOU are a Extremely rare breed and might soon All be gone.
Awwww, thanks! God bless!
I love it brother, amen! This is a horse that could never be beat to death! You keep saying your peace. I have grown up around guns, particularly bolt action rifles. And my wonderful father taught me to shoot those guns with accuracy and consistency. But more than that he taught me how to hunt. I can say that on most days I have the capability to match distances with anybody I know. But with our precious game, I stay well within my capability, choosing far lesser distances than what I'm able to kill at. There are quite a few reasons actually that I choose this but the most important of them are: I don't want to have a downed range air movement that I misjudge that leads to the wounding of God's blessed bountiful offering to me. The second reason is that I like to hunt. Real hunting. That's it...
Without being an expert, but hunting all my life, plus reloading all my life, I know you are right. By the time you do a 1000 yard shot, bullet energy is down to such a minimal amount it's like shooting game with a 22 lr, or even something smaller. Wind effects also, are unpredictable. So anyone that says your wrong truly doesn't know what they are talking about. THE MAIN THING HERE IS THE FACT THAT NO TELLING HOW MUCH GAME IS WOUNDED AND ESCAPES TO DIE SOME OTHER PLACE NEVER TO BE RECOVERED. Those long range shots should be left at the target range.
Proof, that you can have lots of experience and still display that you don't have a firm grasp of what you're talking about.
I watched your video on shooting elk.
You claimed many elk taken past 500 yards some past 800 yards. Seems contradictory?
I think he's more saying if you're not properly trained and have your skills tuned then don't shoot if you can't shoot sub moa at 100 then your not going to be ethically capable of shooting game at 500 yards stick to paper
This had more to do with ethics than ethics of long range hunting. Some people are simply devoid of ethics; hunting or otherwise.
Agreed.
bullet flight time .. 3 to 5 seconds .. the dead on heart shot just hit the hind end of your game because something spooked it at the trigger break ...
Exactly...
I do not know the bullet, velocity, cartridge, density altitude , or distance but at 900yds a 210 vld hunting from a 300 win mag going 2980 time of flight at 1521 DA is 1.16 seconds
you should if shooting it .. know your ammo .. last deer season it was a doe .. quarter away at the trigger break .. my 270 win reload at 2800 fps from book .. SP 130 gr ( where i hunt is max 300 ) i don't need the extra recoil for max load .. 30 yrds away . .. i shot .. it turned at the break .. my shot when in at the rear of the right side ribs .. broke a few .. skipped a few and got a few more ribs and into the shoulder all the same side .. i was shooting for a in on the right and out on the left shoulder . didn't happen .. but 5 steps and deer down .. .. button buck .. .. what was the flight time on that shot ?? it could have been just wounded without knowing your bullet /ammo .. ( gameking 130gr SP ) crap can happen even at 30 yrds ..
michaelgnitzschke I think he is using 45ACP ballistics. Another self important expert that doesn't quite understand basic ballistics
My biggest urk is the danger of shooting long ranges. Got to know whats beyond. Way too many so called American snipers out there.
true I wear plenty of blaze orange when I am hunting were folks are shooting long range,once watched a man wearing a tan jacket running thru a field and jumping over brush at around 400 yards he had about the same motion as a deer and it was dusk dark around sun set and he had a white tee shiet on under his tan jacket ,at first I thought for sure it was a deer jumping around and running down the hill jumping over the green biars and bushes i watched him in my field glasses ,just to make sure he diddnt get killed .some folks do some crazy stuff once I was watching a pine thicket and seen some white flashing every now and then in it and i just knew it was a deer so i just kept watching and shortly a big turkey flew up out of the pines and sailed off over my head ,but the white kept flashing around in those pines and shortly a man wearing a green jacket and wearing a white UVA hoodie came into veiw and when he seen my blaze orange he walked over to me and asked if I had seen that big turkey that I had flushed up lol i laughed and told him that I had but that I had been watching him and when he asked why I pointed and told him that white shirt was showing up real good while he was messing around in that patch of pines down below and I had thought he was a deer moving around down there.also told him he was gonna get killed wearing it and to take it off and stuff it in a pocket or throw it away and go put on a blaze orange hat or vest or stay outta the woods because he was gonna get hurt wearing white and the state law requires all hunters to wear blaze orange when you are in the woods during firearms deer season here,he had a funny look on his face when I told him that I thought for sure that he was a deer crawling around in that pine thicket,and he shed that crazy sweatshirt.lol
Your right about the difficulty and years of training sniper platoons . All we done more than anything is running everywhere we went. No laggards ever made it through.
Good lord this guy is really full of himself. I have no doubt that he is a smart man when it comes to rifles but he sure acts like his way is the only way.
Technology is pissing him off that's all. Can't and won't keep up with the times. To full of himself because he lived a long life.
I would recommend learning how to hunt with a bow first like I did as a kid, thereby forcing the best stalking and still-hunting skills no matter what you hunt with.
There are people with egos that their brain can’t manage. If they know about bullet composition, sectional density, maximum point blank range and wound channels, but still shoot big game beyond the cartridge/bullet’s limits, they are indeed irresponsible and unethical fools, not hunters.
The issue we have in hunting ethics today has absalutely ZERO to do range, range is just an easy scapegoat since it's easy to put a line on, ethical hunting ends at 30 yards, 300 yards or 600 yards, it's an easy comfortable benchmark that has nothing to do with ethically taking game!! I've seen gutt wrenching horrific things done to animals at close range, the lack of empathy and ethical behavior was sickening yet by these standards of range they would have been ethical clean kills. How many time do we hear the story of emptying a gun on a record book animal then going up to see if we hit it and considering it luck if it was dead, how horrifying yet praised as ethical, how is that? One of the current record deer died in a hail of gunfire from a totally in adequate chambering, if that same deer was taken at 800 yards cleanly with one round it would be denied entry based on ethics, how is going gunsmoke on a deer to get lucky more ethical than doing the work to take that animal with one clean round?I would submit the slob animal wounding troll we all should hate who slings bullets at long range was the SAME slob animal wounding troll at close range. It seems the real obsession is range not ethical behavior or cleanly taking game.
If you can't hit a penny at 100 yards coldbore, then forget about long long range shooting. This is exactly why I don't do it. I always keep my shots inside of 300 for my non magnums and 350 for my magnums. These types of shots are only taken from an improvised rest because I don't tote them there shooting sticks when hunting.
Never have had never will.
Old guys or galls who know a hell of a lot more than me.i am really trying with my 30 06. Im breaking clay pigons at 150-200 yards almost every time. Is that an acceptable acuracy to take deer. Or should i be able to hit somthing smaller every time to consider it a good acceptable placement to take the game. Im trying to figure out an acceptable outer limit. I know the round will do its part at that range as i have no desire to take elk. However wight tail/mule dear are a eventual goal. I can hit this well with many light conditions as well as with considerable wind. I guess that dosent mean much at thouse distances but as i say i am really trying though. Well please let me know. Its hard to take the step up between a 22lr/223 to a 30 06. I am just trying to get over the adrenaline of the much bigger boom.
You are definitely doing the right thing. Keep it up. The practice, practice and more practice in the non-hunting situations, in many positions will help, and when it comes to taking your game you won't notice the "boom" effect nearly as much. Good shooting!
forrest
If you can hit a 4 " clay every time at 200 you are good to hunt deer to 200 yards. Thats a good poke. Ive only shot a few deer and hogs over 200. Im not going to shoot too far. I like to find my deer and eat it. Not just punch a tag for a set of horns 6 hrs later after coyotes eat his hams out. 200 yards is plenty good bud. Go hunting and learn..
Many thanks again for your video Randy. There are too many shooters and few hunters. a fan from Oz
I hunt in NC and most shots are under 100 yards. Every time I take a magnificent white tail (doe or buck...I'm a meat hunter) I feel poorly for a bit as I say thanks for my bounty. To shoot at long ranges and wounding or causing an animal to suffer would be the end of me. I have absolute respect for these animals. Great thoughts Randy. I totally agree with your thoughts!
Very well said Mr. Selby, I couldn't agree with you more. I have taken several animals as a hunter (whitetail, black bear and rabbits) and the farthest shot I've taken was acctually this year on my biggest whitetail to date, a long shot at 77 yards with my muzzleloader. A 16 pointer that I had chased the woods of my hometown for 4 full deer seasons, an absolute old Canadian giant. This was also the first time I had every laid eyes on him other than in hundreds of trailcam photos. I couldn't imagine taking a 300 or 400 yard shot at such an animal. Long range hunting is not my idea hunting. Hunting to myself is about getting as close to the game as I possibly can, not sitting in the truck seat, driving the roads and spotting from a far then seeing if I can hit the prey with my factory rifle. Its just common sense to me as a hunter, get up close and take away much of the potential error that can be there with the longer range. I love this channel. Keep up the terrific work sir, I'll be watching. Thanks
Thanks avid hunteer1016! We really appreciate not only your input but your dedication to fair chase hunting. So glad you got a spectacular buck.
you have taken several game...good for you..I have taken 100s of game and many have been long range....well over 800 yards....some as close as 4 yards...and often times I could not get closer that 400-500 yards.....franking I think you and the OP are too big for your britches ..
dave maher just interested what would make me to big for my britches? Because I agreed with Mr. Selby's statement. I am very capable of shooting long range, but I choose not too on game, so that makes me to big for my britches? You may be very comfortable at taking game at the distances you have stated, as well as many others are I'm sure. In the opening statement of his video he said that the long range is ego driven, I guess this is where you would fit into the statement made in Mr. Selby's video. So I've gone ahead and subscribed to your channel, so I can see some of these long range kills you're touting about. Why don't you post some so me and the other 8 subscribers can watch all of your shots. Nice chatting with you.
avid huntr1016 based on what you stated. You sad long range is not hunting. I’m guessing you are a eastern hunter. I could degrade your style as well... climbing into a tree stand waiting for a deer to wonder by is not hunting. Where I hunt I have to hike in 2-3 miles with a 40 pack. Glass up a deer and stalk him. Many times across a 400 yard canyon ......so why not stop with the bashing and support hunters. I have hunted in the east and taken hundreds of deer from a tree stand and I have hunted out west and I can tell you it is far far more difficult to hunt out west and shoot a deer 400yards than it is to sit in a tree stand and shoot them.
@@Nightmarehc130 I see what both of you are saying. I too am a western hunter, and I know full well that sometimes a long shot is all that is available. I personally believe that hunters can get within 300 yards most of the time, with a few exceptions for longer 400, 500, and even 600 yard shots. But everyone can get closer than 1000 yards, with any game animal. Just my take. And I think that is what the OP was directing his rant towards.
Trained or not taking game at these ridiculously long ranges is NOT hunting its shooting and there is a major difference! Now that its "the cool" thing to do everyone thinks they're a pro and it's disgusting. if you're not ethical enough to get within a reasonable distance you shouldn't be hunting to begin with! GREAT VIDEO!
Thanks a lot. That's exactly right. Ego driven, IMHO.
God bless you and yours Mr. Selby. You may not reach ‘em all but we share your wisdom with our young ones. Thank You
Man I am glad I found your channel! We must all know our limitations shooting!
I use 7x57's and 257 Roberts because they're easily effective to 200yds.
Do these calibers work past my personal 200yd limit? Of course, but I want to make sure the deer is down and recovered.
Ego shots almost always lead to extra work and aggravation.
They are monons who think they can build load and shoot any kind of rifle, long distance or not. If you are going to kill anything at whatever distance you tend to kill that animal, you better have practiced a lot. Long Range hunting is here to stay, but the ones that are good believe in top of the line guns and ammo to do it. Lb/sq inch of bullet impact is more important than what you use. Like your vid.
WHAT MAKES ME CRAZY is people buying airguns and going out and killing wild pigs and deer and proclaiming they can kill these animal humanly. They are full of crap.
Stay mad.
You said everything I was thinking myself. My grandfather always preached and practiced.
Get as close to the animal to make the cleanest shot you can an out the animal out of their misery as quick as you can.
I grew up on a farm near Bodines! I have lived in Montana since I got out of the Marine Corps.
I wouldn't even consider pulling the trigger unless it was Within 4 to 500 yards it's not that I couldn't hit it it's just that I couldn't guarantee a first shot kill. If you've ever heard the term clean kill that's exactly what this gentleman is talking about. Don't put the animal through needless misery.
A lot of hese "long range hunters" have little true hunting skill, try for these long range shots to make up for their lack of skill in true hunting
I f I couldn't get closer than 100 yards or less to any animal, I would never hunt again.
instant gratification. The real skill of hunting has been lost hard work has been lost. I want it and I want it now.
BINGO!!!
*Depending on the mass of the animals and projectile design, at least @1000 ft. lbs. of Terminal (Kinetic) Energy (TE,) and .201 Sectional Density (SD) are considered the minimum limits to kill deer sized game. At least @1800 ft. lbs. of TE and .250 SD are considered the minimum limits to kill Elk sized game.* Minimum Terminal Velocity (TV) is ignored, as it's highly dependent on bullet design and material; Cup and Core lead will require much less velocity to adequately expand- @1800 fps than a solid copper bullet- @2400 fps. Regardless, I'm going to show that valuing SD and TE over Ballistic Coefficient (BC) on cartridge boxes will give a hunter more realistic bullet choices better suited for hunting.
There is long range shooting, and then there is hunting, but they do not mix very well for big game. High Ballistic Coefficients (BC's) dominate paper target shooting, but are much less relevent to living big game animals even at Maximum Effective Range (MER.) *Refer to the first three lines above,* as *TE, SD and TV determines bullet penetration, expansion and humane kills, which subsequently defines MER.*
As the TE and TV potential to humane kills decreases per yard down range, they eventually reach a point of critical TE/TV deficiency- running out of the ability to humanely kill before the bullet reaches the point down range where a BC's Return-of-Benefit would begin; thus BC is only useful outside of hunting ranges, beyond @500 yards- the greatest MER attainable for most high performing big game hunting cartridges for class-3 game (elk.) *Again, refer to the first three lines above.*
SD (Diameter to Weight) of the projectile is a product of one constant- bullet dimensions, which gives a constant value, as weight-to-diameter never changes from muzzle to impact; *it enables relevant comparisons between bullet makes and models.* BC however, is a product of variables- atmospherics, rotation/stabilization and velocity, and is vital to compare and measure for target shooting, which is *far beyond practical hunting MER's.* SD is more relevant to TE than BC for big game hunting at standard MER's because *it is a measurement of potential penetration vital for big game hunting* *(Again, refer to the first three lines above,)* but not relevant to target shooting.
The following is an exerpt from a Chuck Hawks article that is poignant as to why SD and TE are the most important stats on a cartridge box:
"The higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force within a smaller area (diameter) of the target. For example, if all variables are equal, a 180 grain 7mm bullet with an SD of .319 will penetrate better than a 180 grain 8mm bullet with an SD of .246.
The best way to compare different calibers is by SD, not bullet weight. For example, the .270 Winchester and .30-06, which are based on the same case, can both shoot 150 grain bullets. However, the 150 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .226) is best used for Class 2 (deer size) game, while the 150 grain .270 bullet (SD .279) is more appropriate for Class 3 (elk size) game. The 150 grain .270 bullet should actually be compared to the 180 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .271), as both of these bullets are appropriate for Class 3 game in their respective calibers and boast similar SD's. This is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets."
Here are some typical small game, varmint and small predator (Class 1) hunting bullets with their sectional densities:
Diam. Cal. Weight Sectional Density
.172" (.17) 20 grain, SD .097
.172" (.17) 25 grain, SD .121
.204" (.20) 33 grain, SD .113
.204" (.20) 40 grain, SD .137
.222" (.22LR) 40 grain, SD .116
.224" (5.56mm) 45 grain, SD .128
.224" (5.56mm) 50 grain, SD .142
.224" (5.56mm) 55 grain, SD .157
.224" (5.56mm) 60 grain, SD .171
.224" (5.56mm) 68 grain, SD .194
.243" (.24) 58 grain, SD .140
.243" (.24) 75 grain, SD .181
.243" (.24) 80 grain, SD .194
.257" (.25) 75 grain, SD .162
.257" (.25) 87 grain, SD .188
Looking at those figures illustrates why the military has had so much problem with the penetration of 5.56mm NATO (.223 Rem.) bullets in combat. Human beings are Class 2 size animals and none of these .224" bullets have adequate SD for the job, let alone for penetrating barrier materials and light armor. It also shows why none of these varmint weight bullets, regardless of the velocity at which they can be driven, should never be used to shoot deer and other medium size game animals.
Here are some typical hunting bullets and their sectional densities that are recognized as effective for medium size big game animals (Class 2), such as deer, antelope, sheep and goats:
Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density
.243" (6mm) 90 grain, SD .218
.243" (6mm) 95 grain, SD .230
.243" (6mm) 100 grain, SD .242
.257" (.25) 100 grain, SD .216
.257" (.25) 117 grain, SD .253
.264" (6.5mm) 120 grain, SD .247
.264" (6.5mm) 125 grain, SD .256
.277" (.270) 120 grain, SD .223
.277" (.270) 130 grain, SD .242
.284" (7mm) 130 grain, SD .230
.284" (7mm) 140 grain, SD .248
.308" (7.62mm) 150 grain, SD .226
.308" (7.62mm) 160 grain, SD .241
.312" (.303) 150 grain, SD .220
.321" (.32 Spec.) 170 grain, SD .236
.323" (8mm) 150 grain, SD .205
.323" (8mm) 180 grain, SD .246
.338" (.338) 180 grain, SD .225
.358" (.35) 180 grain, SD .201
.358" (.35) 200 grain, SD .223
.375" (.375) 235 grain, SD .239
.458" (.45-70) 300 grain, SD .204
As you can see, all of the above have a sectional density of at least .201 and the average is in the .23's. All of the small bore calibers (.32 and smaller) have SDs of at least .205. This is the kind of SD you should look for in a bullet for medium game.
For large (Class 3) game, such as red stag, kudu, eland, elk and moose anywhere in the world, bullets with higher sectional density should be chosen. Good examples of such bullets would be:
Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density
.264" (6.5mm) 140 grain, SD .287
.277" (.270) 140 grain, SD .261
.277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279
.284" (7mm) 150 grain, SD .266
.284" (7mm) 154 grain, SD .273
.284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283
.308" (7.62mm) 170 grain, SD .256
.308" (7.62mm) 180 grain, SD .271
.312" (.303) 180 grain, SD .266
.323" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
.338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250
.338" (.338) 210 grain, SD .263
.338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281
.348" (.348 Win.) 250 grain, SD .295
.358" (.35) 225 grain, SD .251
.358" (.35) 250 grain, SD .279
.366" (9.3mm) 250 grain, SD .267
.366" (9.3mm) 270 grain, SD .288
.375" (.375) 270 grain, SD .274
.377" (.38-55) 255 grain, SD .256
.458" (.45) 400 grain, SD .272
All of the bullets immediately above have a sectional density of at least .250 and most exceed .270. Bullets of this sectional density, if adequately constructed, have proven able to penetrate deep into large game animals.
I did a quick survey of the hunting bullets with SD's over .300 available in common factory loads and to the reloader in the various rifle calibers. These are the top calibers and bullet weights for maximum penetration. In medium and big bore calibers (.33+), they have proven adequate for hunting thick-skinned dangerous game (Class 4):
Diam. Caliber Weight Sectional Density
.264" (6.5mm) 160 grain, SD .328
.284" (7mm) 180 grain, SD .333
.308" (7.62mm) 200 grain, SD .301
.308" (7.62mm) 220 grain, SD .331
.312" (.303) 215 grain, SD .316
.323" (8mm) 220 grain, SD .301
.338" (.338) 250 grain, SD .313
.366" (9.3mm) 286 grain, SD .305
.375" (.375) 300 grain, SD .305
.416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330
.458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341
.474" (.470 NE) 500 grain, SD .318
.509" (.500 NE) 570 grain, SD .314
Most people will not be surprised to find the heavy .33 to .50 caliber bullets on the above list. However, many may be surprised to find that heavy weight bullets for the small bore 6.5mm, 7mm, .30, .303 and 8mm calibers are right in there with the best medium and big bore bullets in terms of SD. This may help explain why these small bore calibers are so penetration-to-recoil versatile.
could not be better said. I do wish I could get a rifle built by you that would be a rifle that could be passed generation to generation enjoy your knowledge and have respect thank you
If it only shoots 1.5 moa at 1oo yards go to wal mart, what a joke when he made that comment
I agree with you, I shoot paper at a 1000 often, last time out on a constant decent wind I got 8 V-Bulls out of ten, 32 clicks of windage. Time before with a weak inconsistent wind Had I been shooting at a deer, I'd have injured it more times than killed it. That's why I wouldn't shoot game over 500 and even then conditions would need to be good. I don't like injuring animals, those that shoot animals over 500 and say they don't ever injure animals are liars.
With no experience at all I put together a Savage Weather Warrior chambered in 7mm mag. I screwed on a Pacnor 27" barrel, glass bedded it with Devcon metal epoxy on a laminated thumb hole stock. Headspace was set with two pieces of Scotch tape on a case. Cold bore shot with follow up shot, 1/2 MOA very repeatable out to 1100 yards and I don't know jack. I have hurt more animals under 100 yards that over 600 yards. A snap shot at 40 yards is hands down the most unethical shot in history. "Oh I must have missed.", the shot could have hit it anywhere. We all have done it. Randy Newburg said it best, be as lethal as possible. Get as close as possible is the best advice. You have a good message, but these new rifles from nobody can be great. The male being is fueled by ego or do you just intentionally shoot the smallest animal possible to avoid showing your buddies a stellar pic of a toad? Every shooter out there is flawed in one manor or another.
Few take terminal ballistics into consideration. I remember when that dentist from Minnesota got in hot water from shooting that lion with a bow and arrow, and he prided himself on being able to hit a deck of cards at 100 yards. Never mentioned a word about whether or not that arrow was able to penetrate to the lion's vital at that range. I guarantee a lion's hide, bones and flesh protecting heart and lungs is thicker than a deck of cards.
Moral of the story be a better hunter and to cherish and respect our wildlife , love this channel , echoes of my grandfather, well said sir , much respect
When I grew up, target shooting was a means to develop ethical & effective hunting.
We all wanted to be great American hunters.
Now everyone wants to be the great American sniper.
Hunting & sniping, are different things & have very different end goals.
You nailed it!! Thanks for watching.
The perfect example of a true hunter can be given the old 30-30 with 170 gr bullets and go out and spot the animal he or she wants to take will get within 100 yards and less and wait for the perfect shot and have the confidence in the gun to make the best shot and most ethical hit a killing the animal quick. That would be a true hunter in my opinion.
It can be hard enough to find a critter when you shoot them at normal yardages. Compounding that trouble makes no sense. If it takes you fine or ten minutes to set up and take the first shot. How in the world could you take/make a follow up shot or four if needed ?
I really enjoy your videos. I reload , target shoot and hunt here in WV all my life . I’ve been going to Colorado every other year elk hunting on public land . I’ve loaded my 300 win mag with 180 accubond. I’ve never been lucky enough to get with in range of a legal bull yet though . I think my preferred shot be anything under 300 yards . I practice out to 600 here at home but I feel 400 would be my very longest shot I’d consider but preferably one day I’ll get a shot one 300 or under .
A lot of accusations in this video without merit. I want to know exactly who you are talking about.
Probably anyone shooting game at 1000 yards. You could probably lump those who use drones in there as well.
Thanks for sharing!
Once again, outstanding !!
Thanks, again, JPquad.
they dont use expanding bullets at 1,400 yards they use giant soild .375 , 408, 50calbmg soilds and flop them into the animal
Please keep these talk coming, they are great. Please keep sharing your knowledge.
Thanks Big Racer. We appreciate your comment. We plan on keeping them coming.
👍👍, thank you for doing a video on this subject, it's not hunting it target shooting at live animals.
That's the key distinction! You don't have to worry about gut-shooting a steel gong.
Where is your evidence? Show me documentation that the film is doctored, put your money up, prove it...irritates me no end when someone sits there and pontificates... doesn't show evidence just "MY" experience....and slanders and attacks...where is your evidence...show me quantified numbers...prove your statement about the "MANY" lost animals...
As for documentation, the man filming the first 1 1/2 years of video was the videographer, turned his stomach, but he had a job in an area good paying jobs were hard to find and a growing family to feed. He was told how to edit the videos I mention and told me step by step how he was told to do it. He made sure before starting work for us that we'd not ask him to doctor video.
I state exactly what I see and document for myself. Get your fanny off of the couch, cover the ground my sons and I have in THIS area over 72 years and there you have it, Bob's your uncle.
@@TheRealGunsmith Well since you are claiming game wastage as well, which is against the law anywhere I have hunted then you are both obligated to present this evidence to the proper authorities...I saw or I heard without presenting documentable evidence is worth absolutely nothing and can be considered slander in a court if law...so again present your legitimate evidence for all of us to review and for law enforcement to investigate...otherwise your statements and claims are worth absolutely zero...
Only thing I shoot at past 350 is steel, mainly because I’m not that good of a shot to one-shot drop an animal beyond that distance, consistently. If I can’t get the clean kill, best to wait until I can.
I figure the reason for putting long distances between yourself and your target is because the target is dangerous. Like a soldier. Sniping a deer at 400 plus yards seems nutty to me, hilarious even. I could see doing it with a big nasty boar, but I think real skill is about how close you can sneak up to a really skittish creature like a deer and kill it.
Listen to good advice but it’s very hard to change some people’s bad habits
Thank you very much for this video. I appreciate your insight regarding a subject that I feel is not boding well for the long term benefit of our sport. I have been against this super long range hunting fad for a while now. I find it neither ethical nor sporting. Our technology has made such a huge leap during the past decade, and with it I feel like hunting ethics have been tossed right into the garbage can. I have even heard people throwing around the term "relative ethics". That is disheartening to hear. I was raised by my father to always be respectful and ethical to both the game we are chasing as well as towards fellow sportsmen. Today, in the age of self centered individuals with planet sized egos, that mentality seems to be diminishing. I mean come on, we have guys who defend the use of drones while hunting. In the age of Outdoor television, which is littered with slick advertising to be the biggest and the baddest Billy Badass on the block, anything goes if it means notching a tag. Including shooting over the head of another hunter, because screw him, he's trying to get YOUR deer, you know, the one that you are obviously entitled to kill. There are a few guys I still enjoy watching on TV, such as Jim Shockey and Randy Newberg. They're both model sportsmen who always display a high level of ethical conduct while hunting. But I feel like most 'hunters' today could care less about having good ethics. To them, all that matters is killing the animal. That's it. I was taught that if you killed something every single time you went hunting, it would be called killing, not hunting. Seems like guys today are more than eager to change that, utilizing every modern advantage to kill game at 1900 yards. They remind me of the market hunters from the late 1800s who nearly wiped out the bison populations. I'm sure those guys also had the same "relative ethics" mindset. I will always ensure an ethical and sporting shot on a game animal, but really I feel like it's a lost cause, and guys like us are being shoved into a back corner in a dark room, because we're standing in the way of the future of hunting. Which is relying on every technological crutch possible and be completely devoid of woodsmanship skills and ethical behavior. Sad really, because I see it as the end of hunting as we know it. Tags will become harder to draw and there will be less game animals to go around. With people sniping them at ungodly distances, game departments will have to restrict tags sold, because hunter success is going to start getting near a number where the game populations will be wiped out if they don't restrict the number of tags made available.
How you doing sir?I own a 6.5 creedmoor and been looking at 140 grain nosler accubond. Can I take elk at 300 yards or less ?I can't see shooting passed that.What is your take on this caliber for deer mule deer and pronghorn?Thanks for your time and answers.
A 200 yard elk round, 300 yard deer and antelope.
Thanks for watching!
This is a smart man..
And your right 600 is a HUGE shot.. but Im from the south east. 300 is a long shot. Too much can happen.
Stuff you dont see. Im not wounding up my deer. Ive raised them too long and got way too much love for them. People just care about trophy now. And are willing to break rules of ethics.
Ive only met one man hes in mid Ga has a 800 yard range that shoots all the time. He can hunt to 600 -800 but hes the only one Ive seen do it well... Others loose game all the time..
Good words Mr. Selby
Randy, in another one of your videos on long range hunting, you noted the US military has forsaken the .308 (7.62, actually) in favor of the more recent 6.5 Creedmoor. A retired Army officer, I do not know that to be factual; but I will accept your word on it. If true, the reasoning will not be what it seems and what you infer. There is a monumental difference in objectives in military marksmanship and hunting! One objective is to dispatch an animal cleanly and quickly; another objective may be to stop a threat or to incapacitate a subject, on the prospect that two or more additional combatants will aid the wounded and thus be rendered ineffective in the engagement (Army speak).