One time one of my opponents played Wheel Of Misfortune and every one bid five. I really needed the wheel but apparently the whole table did as well. everyone took five and no one wheeled. It was funny at least to me.
can someone help me here, i don´t understand what stops you to say 40 or 5,000 using Wheel Of Midfortune? the card only read 0 or greater but doesn´t have a limit on the number you can name or does it?
@@alonsoboulevard , It's basically how much life are you willing to lose to draw a fresh hand. If you're the highest bid, you lose that much life. Nothing other than your life total is preventing you from going that high.
@@alonsoboulevard it's suicide. If you bet more than your life total you die and get nothing. There's no advantage to betting the highest, it's just the card version of a game of chicken. 1 is the optimal bet if you think someone is going to bet 0, but you can't guarantee it. It's like gamble; you can tutor for your best card, but you'll possibly have to discard it too. Misfortune is edge lord the card. The only safe bet is 0, and you get and lose nothing. Still one of my favorite red cards because of table dynamics
1:21:19 I would like to point out that Urborg would help out if you have a bunch of *basic* lands in play. For example, if you have the Stronghold, a bunch of Plains, and then play Urborg, now your Plains are Basic Land - Plains Swamp, and since they're a basic Swamp, they will count for the Stronghold's effect.
It makes them swamps in addition to their other types it does not make them into basic swamps for comparison take a look at the card dryad of the ilysian grove
@@hatkiller7985 If you have a Plains in play, it's a "Basic Land - Plains". If you then play Urborg, then your Plains is a "Basic Land - Plains Swamp". It's a basic land with the subtype "Swamp", so it would count for the Stronghold's ability. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the Dryad. The Dryad will give your lands all basic land types, but it won't give a land the Basic supertype.
@@Natedogg2 the comparison is that it specifies that it gains basic land types while urborg just makes them swamps in addition to their other types the land being basic already does not make them basic swamps
@@hatkiller7985 Nathan's point was if you have several actual basic lands (e.g. actual "Plains" card) and an Urborg, then that Plains is a basic land that is also a swamp so it counts for Cabal Stronghold. Dryad of the Ilysian Grove does also add the swamp land type so it helps in the same way, but it does not add the Basic *supertype.* > CR305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes.[...] > CR205.4a An object can have one or more supertypes. A card’s supertypes are printed directly before its card types. The supertypes are basic, legendary, ongoing, snow, and world. > CR205.4c Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land, even if it has a basic land type. > CR205.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [type, supertype, or subtype].”[...]
something else that can come up with sylvan library, you can put back any 2 cards in your hand with its effect, that you have drawn this turn. Since library triggers on your draw step, you can have a phyrexian arena draw, or blue sun zenith for 15 during your upkeep, and you can choose to draw an additional 2 with library and put back 2 cards from the 15 drawn with zenith.
You can also use the replacement effect from Abundance, to "draw" the 3 cards from Sylvan Library without paying the 8 life (and even choose "land" or "nonland" for each of those).
My god - I had to stop at the very beginning - this new introduction to the subject matter is SO DOPE. It probably took a lot of time and energy but MY GOD it was worth it for me at least. If you can keep doing this sustainably, please do!!!
Moraug is worded that way to prevent infinite combats with sword of the animist type cards. Cabal stronghold only cares about the land being both a swamp and a basic. So if you have a few basics + Urborg then Cabal Stronghold it still works. It just doesn't work for non-basic lands.
It's pretty rare for me to build a multicolor deck that has enough basic lands to make it work before I've drawn half the deck. Anything more than a splash of another color results in a hand full of dead weight.
@@Kraus- if you have the budget to fix your decks mana with all the untapped duals/triomes and fetches that you have few actual basics, you can afford coffers, stronghold works with urborg for budget decks that have mostly basics or decks that want extra basics bc of, say golgari and/or jund decks who can ramp out multiple basics quickly with green. Urborg and stronghold would still function for all basic lands. And hell, a Mono black deck should be running both just for full benefit
A more recent card I see people misplay a lot is Adeline. People think you have to attack with her to get her trigger when really you can attack with any creature and get her trigger.
"Cabal Stronghold doesn't work with Urborg." True in most cases, but there are cases where it hilariously does work. If you're playing a Rakdos deck for example, and you have Urborg out with 4 Mountains and a Cabal Stronghold, those Mountains actually count now because they keep their Basic supertype and have now also become Swamps. I still don't think I'd run it outside of mono-black, but I have seen players get value out of it in Golgari, where they can use land tutor effects to get those cards out.
For me to include cabal stronghold I need atleast 15 basics if I do and I have urborg in non mono decks it's available for consideration in the deck depending on the strat
Another thing that I've seen players forget about Urza's Saga is that the final chapter ability lets you fetch an artifact with mana cost 0 or 1, NOT converted mana cost. It can't fetch things like Esper Sentinel that cost colored mana or things like Sol Talisman that have no mana cost, only things whose actual mana cost is 0 or 1.
I've seen the esper sentinel thing more than once. Admittedly I didn't know this the first time, but someone at the table explained, and since I've seen it once or twice more. Good call!
I think that Moraug is worded how he is for three reasons. One is the obvious that you can only get extra combats on your turn, two is to not print an infinite combo between him and sword of the animist so the land has to enter during a main phase and the third is to prevent him from being used as "landfall: untap all your creatures" which is what he would've effectively been if he granted another main phase or untapped immediately. There are plenty of creatures that can tap to put a land from your hand into play which would've allowed infinite combat steps with a bounceland alongside infinite landfall triggers and quasi-infinite mana if you had dorks. Basically "landfall: standard extra combat text" is just so insanely powerful that you could win through it without ever attacking.
You can still go for infinit combat steps with guys that let you play extra lands. You just wont be able to make infinit mana unless you have something that stores floating mana
I think you’re probably right that that’s why they didn’t give you extra main phases/landfall won’t work mid-combat. But I believe the way the combats stack up was an oversight. I think it just read as “landfall=extra combat step” and they didn’t really rationalize that you wouldn’t be untapped for your regular combat. It’s very, very unintuitive if it was supposed to function the way it was actually printed
I still like Moraug's interaction with Fertilid though, since as long as you don't move out of your 2nd main phase you can get an extra combat step for every 2 mana. And if you've got something like Omnath, Locus of the Roil or The Ozolith and an Amulet of Vigor or Lotus Cobra you can really squeeze out a lot of extra attacks. Your timing is just a little weird to make it work is all.
everybody should take a note from cedh: pressure the players paying life for cards. cedh uses ad nauseum, but the same principal applies to Sylvan library and necropotence in casual. so as the Sylvan or Necro player, PAY THE LIFE NOW so you can get your interaction 😌
I just re watched "John dies at the end" yesterday for the first time in years and never realized Jimmy was in it. That is pretty awesome. It's a wild movie. Highly recommend. For a mature crowd only.
The discussion around Wheel of Misfortune's game theory is almost certainly why the card was released despite having a short story amount of text. The discussion sold me on wanting to play the card
28:20 while I do agree with you on the point of sylvan library, I think there is another way people play it wrong and I think this is also important to point out. sylvan library, after drawing the two cards, refers to 2 cards from your hand that are drawn this turn. so, if you for example have a phyrexian arena out and a sylvan library, you can put the card you drew off of the library back on top to keep 2 cards from your library without paying life for them. and more importantly, because it cares about cards DRAWN this turn, it will be blind to any replacement effects you have that replace your draw. for example, if you have an abundance, it replaces the draw with putting a card from your deck to your hand, which isnt drawing. so if you have both sylvan library and abundance out, you can replace all 3 of your draws with abundance, then you keep all of them without needing to pay life, because you dont have any cards in your hand that were "drawn" this turn
Like many Black cards in the Judgment set, Filth was intentionally weaker than Anger, Wonder, Brawn, and Valor because the prior expansion in the Odyssey block, Torment, was thematically and mechanically designed around Black. There were almost as many Black cards in Torment as White and Green cards combined, and the overall power level of Black was noticeably higher. Judgment was intended to "correct" for Black's higher power level in the previous set, so the Black cards in the set's various cycles were toned down somewhat. This is why there are actually seven members in the Incarnation cycle: an uncommon for each color, and additional, more powerful rares in Green and White, Glory and Genesis. (Incidentally, WotC's attempt at correction didn't work, and in Type 2 - the format that we call "Standard" these days - Mono-Black Control ended up being stronger and more dominant than at any point before or since.)
Madness is actually one of the things I have the hardest time explaining to people when I play Anje. They have a hard time understanding that I can play madness cards at instant speed.
@@Dark-Pikachu1 No, madness gives you permission to cast the spell as part of the resolution of the madness trigger. You can cast _any_ spell with madness through its madness cost whenever the card is discarded, regardless of whether it is an instant or not. (Remember: since this is part of the resolution of a trigger, you could _never_ cast a sorcery at that time, since the stack is not empty. If casting non-instants this way was forbidden, cards other than instants would've never been printed with madness in the first place.)
My vote is for Sphinx of the Second Sun. There was a week a few months back where both MTG Muddstah and Commander VS had people playing it wrong, ruining the game. The extra beginning phase happens AFTER your second main phase, and you do not get a third main phase (go right to end step)
Actually, Sphinx of the Second Sun says "at the beginning of your postcombat main phase," so while it does not give you a third main phase, the untap and extra draw does happen before your second main phase ends. Edit- thanks for the replies. Magic is hard.
I could be misinterpreting you, but it seems you are exemplifying what people get wrong about this card. The Sphinx ability TRIGGERS at the start of your post combat main phase, but the extra beginning phase OCCURS after the post combat main phase. Once you go to the extra beginning phase, you will not return to any main phase that turn
@@randomact2007 this is how everyone thinks it works. The card actually says, "at the beginning of your postcombat main phase, you get an additional beginning phase AFTER THIS PHASE" so the sphinx triggers at the beginning of your second main, but the extra phase is inserted AFTER the second main phase.
Ironically there's another card in magic that makes things weird that goes against the 'Announcing of a spell' example with Thoughtcast and Sylvala and it's called Lion's Eye Diamond. While it's technically a mana ability, it can only be activated as an instant so can't be activated to pay for announced spells.
This was intentionally designed to avoid a very easy way to cheat: announce a card in your hand, then sacrifice LED to pay for it. (Since you've moved the spell to the stack as part of announcing it, it's not in your hand when you pay LED's activation cost.)
@@therealax6 Close! You're right on the why but not on the how it came to be. When LED was designed, you had to activate mana abilities BEFORE you could cast a spell. There was no "announce, then activate" at the time Mirage came out. (This actually got someone a match loss or a DQ at a Pro Tour back in the day, but I forget the details.) That came in 6th Edition in 1999. The errata was added at that point in time so the card worked like it did when it was released; you are correct that it was never supposed to let you cast a spell from your hand, which it never has per game rules and then errata.
My friend was playing Sylvan Library like a Brainstorm where he was drawing 3 INTO HAND then putting whichever 2 (or up to 2) from his full hand back on top of his library. I knew it didn't work that way but never realized he was doing it that way.
My hypest play ever: I mulliganed down to four (could not draw lands (34 in deck btw)), and had a Swamp, Dark Ritual, and Necropotence plus something else that didn’t matter with those three in hand. Best first turn in mono black.
@@nathangentry1419 I don’t remember exactly how much, but I probably drew around 12-15. It was a Vilis, Broker of Blood life-loss deck, so I needed to be careful about how much life I payed before getting Vilis out.
@@Spike-hl2mw 34-38 is normal, at 34 the odds are 2/7 in opening. But if you want a quick solve. To start a game Draw 10 shuffle 3 back into your deck. (Rule 0) If you get mana screwed after seeing 1/10 of your deck that’s just poor deck building.
@@Spike-hl2mw It was my only cEDH deck, in fact my playgroup constantly teased me about running too many lands so getting that reply from someone with Spike in their name is a situational irony I find pretty funny. Thank you. I also flood out all the time when I run 36+ lands in casual (just today, I flooded out in a 33 land Firesong & Sunspeaker Dragon’s Approach deck). Most of my curves are typically a 1-3 rectangle lol, that’s my playstyle, so usually my 5th+ land is a dead draw, which is why (except my big mana decks) I run between 32-34 lands and adjust over time with deck experience. Running more card draw and selection (like, ~12+) is a great way to slim your deck, you can grab a land you need or search for a major play piece. But that’s my two cents, run as many or as little lands as you think and feel your deck needs.
For why they designed Moraug that way, I think it's to introduce counterplay for your opponent; to maximize the value of your Moraug, you have to swing in the primary combat phase, and that lets your opponent soften you up without taking big losses because your creatures aren't as buffed. It also allows an entire main phase between the two swings which lets everyone decide how much they want to commit.
The card I often see played wrong is Sphinx of the Second Sun. Most times I've seen the line "after this phase" completely skipped over because the placement of that line is just before the reminder text and so much of it just texted so by the time that comes around in reading it people have already checked out.
17:00 I think Moraug was written this way to prevent pseudo-infinite combat steps: - For example, if its landfall ability could trigger during combat; you could easily get infinite combat step with Sword of Hearth and Home or with Sun Titan and a fetch land in your graveyard. - Similarly with Sun Titan and a fetch land in your graveyard, if Moraug was adding an additional main phase, you could get the same pseudo-infinite combat step this way. Sacrificing the fetch land during the additional main phase.
I always find looking to reddit for explanations on a majority of the cards mentioned and rarely find an exact answer. I couldn't thank you guys enough for the content in this video. I really hope to see more just like it in the near future.
People have already commented on the reasons Filth feels so out of place in its cycle, but I'd just like to note that it's actually stronger than you'd expect in Commander - not only because black is one of the more popular (if not the most popular) colors, but also because you can just run it with Urborg and give all your creatures unblockable. Actually, I might just put it in my Kamiz deck...
Pro tip if you have an effect that replaces drawing cards with revealing cards from your library and putting it into your hand you can get the two extra cards from Sylvan Library without having to pay life, eg abundance.
Hands down the coolest combo i pulled off was casting Wheel of Misfortune with a Jared Carthalion equipped with a Pariahs Sheild and had the monarchy and chose 450 billion.
The biggest card I see everyone play wrong is Sphinx of the Second Sun. Even I played it wrong at first. It is worded stupidly. Basically, the additional beginning phase is AFTER the post combat phase. Which means it happens after your second main phase and before your end step.
23:00 Sylvan Library, a time NOT to pay the life is when you have another way to play those cards from the library. The example in the video was, 3 lands. If you have Oracle of Mul Daya, you can play lands off the top of your library, and play an additional land on your turn. So you play the 2 lands off the top of your library and you didn't have to pay the life.
Two weird interactions I discovered in arena with arcane bombardment 1. Discontinuity triggers bombardment before resolving and is effectively more value than a regular extra turn spell 2. Shark typhoon counts cards cast and casting multiple free spells with bombardment swarms the board fast
You got Cabal stronghold and Urborg wrong. Urborg does work with cabal stronghold but only with basic lands. So if you have 3 basic swamps, 2 basic plains, urborg and rec tower your stronghold will tap for 5
My issue with Necropotence and the reason why I no longer play it in my decks is the exile on discard effect. The majority of my black decks are graveyard oriented so the advantage of seeing more cards is greatly overshadowed by the inability to play/return them from the graveyard. Also, a funny story about Brainstorm and why I'm happy you brought it up. A few months ago I was playing my Yuriko ninja deck that has Brainstorm in it. I topdecked brainstorm and played and cracked a fetch land before playing it and one of my opponents who is your typical arrogant legacy player said "Do you want to take that back, you sequenced that wrong" and acted all high and mighty like I was the naïve one when I declined. I then went to combat where I revealed the Temporal Trespass and Blightsteel Colossus I had stack on top of my deck with Brainstorm, because its role in that deck was not as a card draw spell but a topdeck fixer card, and yes that move killed the arrogant player.
I see your point on Necropotence but if your deck is more graveyard centric I image you have more way of sending cards directly into the graveyard i.e. self mill, Entomb like effects. I've personally always used Necro more as a hand fixing tool then a card advantage one.
I have played obeka wrong so often... Not waiting for the end of turn or beginning of the next end step trigger to happen so I can respond. Instead I always do it before it gets there and then sabotage myself. Love your show!
In commander Brainstorm also adds utility when discard and wheel effects are used. It can let you wheel into cards in your hand, hide an important card from a discard effect.
oh dang this is my first command zone video i've watched in a while. I really liked that opening voiceover explaining the basic concept of the podcast, that's a really nice touch!
Something I learned recently (lile a couple weeks ago). If you have Torbran and another damage doubling effect on the board, if a source you control deals damage, it is the receiver that decides the order the damage modification are applied, not the controller of the source of the damage. You can look at Torbran rules on scryfall/gatherer to verifiy.
This applies to all replacement effects. In particular, if they have a damage _prevention_ effect, they can (and should) choose to apply that _first_ (before any doublers/triplers/increasers). Any damage reduced to 0 (or less) this way ceases to exist and will _not_ see any further increases, etc. While we're at it (and while you probably know this, most people don't), remember also that combat damage is assigned ignoring all replacement effects: in particular, you have to ignore the increasing/doubling/etc. when assigning trample damage. If your 4/4 trample is blocked by a 0/3 with Torbran out, you still have to assign 3 to the creature and 1 to the player, even though Torbran will increase that to 5 and 3. You can't have the player take 5 damage. Likewise, if they block a 2/4 with two 2/2s, you can only kill one of them: you can't assign 1 damage to each and have Torbran increase it to lethal. (The one creature you kill _will_ be dealt 4 damage, but you can't split it in that scenario.)
Brainstorm can also be used to put your best cards on top of your library in response to a situation where you have to discard your hand. So, you can save cards and draw them next turn again.
Great informative discussion! One mistake I made with my playgroup, in my early Magic years, was tapping my opponents creatures *after* they declared attackers, to make it so they couldn't attack (we didn't realize you could only tap stuff before attackers were declared). I had a tap deck at the time and it was "so OP" that my friend had to do some rule diving to figure out ways to beat it. lol
thank you SO MUCH for the urzas saga clarification. I get so many games where the table always says "you cant get/keep the mana before it goes away" Will save this video time stamped for moments like those.
16:44 it is worded like that so it didn't go infinite with Uro in standard which had an attack trigger that allowed you to put a land into play. So if it wasn't phrased like that it would allow for infinite combats
@@theHeroBoy1313 so i know they design cards usually with standard in mind and actively try to avoid putting infinites in standard, which is why I said Uro, but you are correct. It does go infinite with sword of the animist
One mechanic I see people messing up a lot is X spells. More often then not it is X spells with XX in the cost of the spell or activation. Great podcast, thanks fellas.
I've played magic for YEARS and never realized thoughtcast worked like that. still learning. I would have just used the three islands to cast it before this episode hahaha
Casting a spell involves a few steps: you announce it, make choices (targets, modes...), determine its cost, then pay the cost, and then the spell is cast. (This is a simplified overview; refer to rule 601.2 and its subclauses if you want the full details.) When you pay any cost that involves mana, you can activate mana abilities before doing so (rule 118.2, and this special case in 601.2g); however, since paying a spell's cost happens _after_ you've determined its cost (which has already been reduced by affinity), if you sacrifice the treasures at this stage in the cast, they will have already reduced the cost. This works for any spell or ability: you pay the costs _after_ making choices and determining costs. An example of this that happened to me a few days ago in Arena: I had an Alseid of Life's Bounty out, which is a creature that has an ability that reads "{1}, Sacrifice Alseid of Life's Bounty: Target creature or enchantment you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn." My opponent was targetting it with some spell that would destroy it and draw them cards, and I had no other creatures out. The solution was to sacrifice it to itself in response. Activate the ability, declare _itself_ as the target, and then pay its cost, sacrificing it. This is perfectly legal, even though the ability would fizzle (no longer having a valid target, since it was sacrificed). Since the cost is paid _after_ choices and costs are determined, I can choose the creature itself as the target of its own ability, even though it will do nothing. (This way I could also fizzle my opponent's spell, no longer having a target, and deny them the cards.)
With Sylvan Library and it being a "Draw" effect, people need to remember that even if you only keep 1 card, you still DREW 3. Very important for smothering tithe and other similar effects.
This is also important to know if you have effects that can replace a draw, like Dredge or Underrealm Lich's ability. And when you replace one of the Sylvan draws, you don't have to pay the life, because you aren't drawing a card anymore. This makes Sylvan + Lich an amazing combo, because on your draw step you'll get to look at the top three and put one into hand and the other two into the graveyard THREE TIMES, seeing 9 cards total and "drawing" the 3 best, binning the rest (at least some of which you might want in the yard anyway) and paying no life.
@@Spike-hl2mw Be careful: you still have to resolve the rest of Sylvan Library's trigger. If you replace _all three_ of your draws, then you've drawn zero cards, and for the "choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn", you (probably) have no cards you can choose (unless you've drawn any during your upkeep) - _that_ is what cancels the rest of the effect. If you only replace _some_ of the draws, then you _will_ have cards drawn this turn and you have to resolve the rest of the ability (if you haven't drawn two cards, you choose as many as you can). Long story short: replacing the draws doesn't, by itself, nullify the rest of the trigger. It's the inability to choose cards drawn this turn (since you've probably drawn zero cards, having replaced those draws with other effects) what makes you not pay any life.
Jimmy touched on it a bit with Brainstorm but one of the other powerful things it does is puts cards back in your deck. If you don't want to wheel you can at least save 2 cards from it.
A recent one I just found out is Doubling Season + Aeve interaction. I've got an Aeve deck, and apparently I've been using it wrong the whole time because of a strange wording. Aeve causes him to make tokens of itself with Storm, and Doubling Seasons says you get to double any tokens you CREATE. However, tokens that are copies of permanent spells aren't created, so Doubling Seasons will only double the counters that Aeve creates.
The exact rule is this one: 608.3b If the object that’s resolving is a copy of a permanent spell, that object becomes a token permanent and is put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller. It is no longer a copy of a spell. The token put onto the battlefield this way is not “created” for the purposes of any replacement effects or triggered abilities that refer to creating a token.
Players were asking about the Moraug interaction just yesterday. Thanks for the episode! A couple others that come up frequently: -OG Selvala’s parley ability being a mana ability seems to trip people up since it can’t be interacted with. -Tragic Arrogance/Rakdos the Showstopper/etc, basically cards where choices are made as part of a resolution. A lot of players wait to see the decisions made and then respond with protection abilities…not quite how it works. -More of a pet peeve: people revealing lands to the Port Town/Fortified Village cycle without intending to use the mana. Just giving away free info.
I think the sentence "1 life for 1 card" in the Necropotence part is a bit misleading, bc when you pay 15 life you will draw 15 and probably "draw 15 and discard 12". Thats no longer "1 life for 1 card", its more like "surveil 15 draw 3" or something like that. Dont get me wrong, "surveil 15 draw 3" is probably also worth 15 life and people should use it more often and more aggressively.
I like to think of early Grand Abolisher type plays as meaningful in the way of hampering opponents, because forcing opponents to make suboptimal plays increases the likelihood that they'll make a mistake, or give me the opportunity to set the pace of the game. It's not nearly as aggravating as you make it out to be, but I do appreciate that you mentioned that it was more subjective. At the end of the day, if it eats a removal spell for something more impactful later down the line, then it's done its job.
One of my favorite reactions is when you slap flying on something that has colossus hammer because hammer removes flying when equipped but it does not prevent them from getting flying after equipped.
I actually have just realized the power of Necroptence recently. I built a K'rrk deck and put greed in and looked at the board took my life down from 35 to 3 so I was able to play Repay in Kind then I extort bringing me up to 4 life then tapped my lands to play for tapped my land for pestilence winning the game out of nowhere
@@MeanDeanHarrison I just now put Necropotence in and I won on turn 5 by Exiling till my health was at 5 the played Repay in Kind taking my health to 1 then swung for game. I agree Necroptence is great but I'll still keep Greed and Vilis in to always have good card draw
In regards to looting/necropotence effects: Something I often tell my playgroup when trying to make them more comfortable with tossing cards is, "I only put good cards in my deck" lol. It's a bit of a joke obviously, but the idea is there. Let go of the card you lost, because the next card can be just as good. You only put good cards in your deck after all.
One recent card that I've seen misunderstood is Cemetery Illuminator. People will often resolve the etb exile then look at their top card when actually you can check the top card at any time, including before you exile the first card from the etb.
Checking "Did I lose because of Sylvan Library life loss?" is a useless check because you being low would change how other players look at you at the table, so it's a pointless thought experiment
Cabal Stronghold does work with Urborg if you’re lands are basics of another type. If you have a BASIC Mountain and Urborg, the basic mountain will count.
Well I definitely didn't play the blue myojin in Jhoira for years not realizing it would never actually get the divinity counter because it was being cast from suspend... lol
Maybe people have figured it out by now but I think people play Sphinx of the Second Sun wrong a lot. I've seen many people play it as if the extra "beginning step" happens before their postcombat main phase when it actually happens after that phase (usually between second main phase and end step).
As someone who runs both paradox haze and sphinx of the second sun, I have noticed this. I use it for my Sisay shrines because it's pretty solid there, but people do tend to not notice that it provides the extra upkeep and main phase after your post combat main. They tend to play it as if it were a second Paradox Haze and it's not. Lol..
It's worth noting that if you have ways to draw cards on your upkeep, you can put THOSE cards back for Sylvan Library too. So if you draw off, say, Mishra's Bauble, you can put that card back on top after using Sylvan Library.
I know you guys were talking about the rules and the form of the cycle, but I just want to say that filth is actually very viable if you can reasonably rely on having an Urborg out.
that intro was insane. also great choice for a show topic, im inundated and bored by set reviews and product fatigue has set in some time ago. but this is a great idea to talk about. love these podcast episodes
That's a really interesting card I didn't know existed. I love the rules implications. If you want to spend the whole game explaining rules to your opponents, find some old cards with banding and put those in your deck :)
@@therealax6 I have like 4 banding creatures lol and my friend just heavy sighed and said "don't" when I got excited and showed him, but yes Defensive is amazing, only a few cents too
There are many ways to get lands in play with attacks and many new card designs for powerful aggro commander cards is geared towards getting resources (cards, impulsive draws, mana, lands) through combat, so extra postcombat main phase would change Moraug a lot.
Moraug was also printed with cards like Nahiri's Lithoforming that can dump a whole bunch of lands at once. Feels kind of bad to be on the recieving end of 10 combat steps from just 1 spell.
Great episode guys, I know we have disagreed on other issues, but I have always loved your game content and your approach to this game we all love. Keep up the great work and thank you for all you do.
During the Sylvan Library conversation. As one who is a high power/Cedh player your life total is a resource. Don't be afraid to take the 8 from it for the extra cards.
I am not a cedh Player, but I have been learning about this game from one for more than 2 years and what I have learned is that Sylvan Library, although literally everyone is playing it, requires more skill and experience at Deck building than many other cards. Your deck needs to contain just the right cards, every Slot needs to be well selected and this card doesnt forgive even one wrong decision you make. True, there is also Sethis which makes that life loss kinda meaningless in the longrun, but still, I am very sceptic towards this card
@@mcman507 True, maybe its like they said and I cannot handle that card just yet. I always rely on other card draw, Elemental Bond and Garruks Uprising since most Decks I play gave Green, and I cant complain about the card draw, tho I know experienced players will always try to shut your engine down, no matter the boardstate
It was only apparent to me recently, but effects like Wilderness Reclamation and Seed born Muse you can tap all your land before the trigger and essentially have double mana for an instant or whatever. Idk if that's been obvious for everyone else lol.
I once bid 21 on a Wheel of Misfortune in a 1v1 game. My opponent bid 20 and their face was priceless. People tend to go for multiples of 5 so going one more can really help you out.
Kinda in line with a lot of the cards you mentioned where people play it too early but I see a lot of people play scute swarm as their three drop and it’s super easy to remove. It’s so much better to play it on the turn you drop your sixth land before you drop your sixth land.
Ooh, I got one: Fertilid can be used offensively! It says "Target Player" searches for a basic land and then shuffles. So if someone has manipulated the top of their deck, it would be a shame if you came along and shuffled it for them.
Riftsweeper is a card I've recently been playing with, and in the deck it's meant to shuffle my own exiled cards. But I've only ever cast it and targeted suspended spells, such as profane tutor, and greater gargaroth.
Moraug's wording helps stop abuse. If it untapped before the combat step, you could enter a scenario where you have a creature that taps to put a land into play, then that landfall untaps all your things, then you can repeat the process. Add a landfall draw card trigger and you can burn through a chunk of your deck with a bunch of combat steps (if you have vigilance since you wouldn't get the untap in this scenario). By untapping during combat, the wording prevents this since tapping during combat wont trigger the extra combat steps, and you can't abuse the landfall triggers as a way to infinitely untap all your creatures.
I think moraug is worded the way it is so that it DOES work with multiple landfalls. If it worded as untap now, and then you get an extra combat, you won't untap between each combat so it's essentially capped at one. Because of how it is worded, you'll untap on each of the extra combats and thus it actually works with fetch lands
Regarding Sylvan Library, a lot of people don’t play it correctly when they drew cards prior to the trigger due to sylvan effect applying to any cards drawn the turn. In one of the most famous weirdest interactions in magic, Brainstorm + Sylvan requires a judge or something due to the effect requiring manipulation of hidden information. Example, if you draw a card in your upkeep, shuffle your hand, then go to sylvan effect there is no way for an opponent to know what cards were there in hand already or drawn and have to only take the player’s word; Less honest players can put any card from their hand into the sylvan library.
One missed talking point with Sylvan Library is that the card only makes you put back "two cards drwan this turn". In the case of Alhammerets Archive, you would draw 6, then you only have to put back 2. You would keep 4 as a result. Also works with phyrexian arena in a way that you can put back a card drawn with Phyrexian arena instead of a card off of Sylvan Library.
Important on Sylvan Library that they did not mention: Sylvan Library cares about cards drawn this turn, you can brainstorm on upkeep, put 2 cards on top that were on your hand already, then draw 3 on your draw step, you now have 6 cards to choose from to put on top from the 2 needed of sylvan library. You just need to be able to prove that those 3 cards from brainstorm were drawn this turn (official rulling), so just keep them on a "separated pile" of your hand.
For Moraug, there's a few creatures like Sakura Tribe Scout that let you tap them to play a land. Because Moraug does not give you extra main phases, he doesn't enable infinite landfalls with the Ravnica bounce lands. Also, if the untap was immediate, you could go infinite with the Scout.
I think the main reason Moraug is worded that way is to prevent taking combat steps equal to the basic lands in your library with things like Sword of the Animist or Sword of Hearth and Home.
Ha! This is like the whole reason I started this channel. Explaining Magic rules and pointing out crazy interactions between cards. I just uploaded a video on the newly spoiled Myrkul and how he interacts with things like Mutate, animated lands, Scroll of Fate and Manifest, and more.
@@craig1287 I'm halfway through watching this one, it's not what I expected it to be on, but still very interesting. I see these pop up all the time. And thanks for watching the Myrkul video. I hope it all made sense. That land stuff is rea cool.
Look at necro/naus in cedh, if you're on more than 5-8 life after you pobably didn't go deep enough. Really depends on your wincons but it carries over.
The difference is that, in cEDH, you'll almost never get another turn after that: you'll either win the game or be eliminated from it. Casual decks often aren't prepared to win on the spot, even after a big draw spell.
Moraug is phrased weirdly to avoid untapping in main phase, because there are infinite combos that you could hit if you untapped everything on landfall (and just ignored the extra combats)
One time one of my opponents played Wheel Of Misfortune and every one bid five. I really needed the wheel but apparently the whole table did as well. everyone took five and no one wheeled. It was funny at least to me.
misfortune is hilarious in madness decks. when I cast it it's always fun to see how badly everyone wants to prevent my wheel
very efficient lava axe. very good
can someone help me here, i don´t understand what stops you to say 40 or 5,000 using Wheel Of Midfortune? the card only read 0 or greater but doesn´t have a limit on the number you can name or does it?
@@alonsoboulevard , It's basically how much life are you willing to lose to draw a fresh hand. If you're the highest bid, you lose that much life. Nothing other than your life total is preventing you from going that high.
@@alonsoboulevard it's suicide. If you bet more than your life total you die and get nothing. There's no advantage to betting the highest, it's just the card version of a game of chicken. 1 is the optimal bet if you think someone is going to bet 0, but you can't guarantee it. It's like gamble; you can tutor for your best card, but you'll possibly have to discard it too. Misfortune is edge lord the card. The only safe bet is 0, and you get and lose nothing. Still one of my favorite red cards because of table dynamics
1:21:19 I would like to point out that Urborg would help out if you have a bunch of *basic* lands in play. For example, if you have the Stronghold, a bunch of Plains, and then play Urborg, now your Plains are Basic Land - Plains Swamp, and since they're a basic Swamp, they will count for the Stronghold's effect.
Urborg also makes the swampwalk on Filth *quite a lot better* it's worth noting.
It makes them swamps in addition to their other types it does not make them into basic swamps for comparison take a look at the card dryad of the ilysian grove
@@hatkiller7985 If you have a Plains in play, it's a "Basic Land - Plains". If you then play Urborg, then your Plains is a "Basic Land - Plains Swamp". It's a basic land with the subtype "Swamp", so it would count for the Stronghold's ability.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the Dryad. The Dryad will give your lands all basic land types, but it won't give a land the Basic supertype.
@@Natedogg2 the comparison is that it specifies that it gains basic land types while urborg just makes them swamps in addition to their other types the land being basic already does not make them basic swamps
@@hatkiller7985 Nathan's point was if you have several actual basic lands (e.g. actual "Plains" card) and an Urborg, then that Plains is a basic land that is also a swamp so it counts for Cabal Stronghold. Dryad of the Ilysian Grove does also add the swamp land type so it helps in the same way, but it does not add the Basic *supertype.*
> CR305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes.[...]
> CR205.4a An object can have one or more supertypes. A card’s supertypes are printed directly before its card types. The supertypes are basic, legendary, ongoing, snow, and world.
> CR205.4c Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land, even if it has a basic land type.
> CR205.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [type, supertype, or subtype].”[...]
"And when you're able to do broken things in commander, you should do them."
-Josh Lee Kwai
something else that can come up with sylvan library, you can put back any 2 cards in your hand with its effect, that you have drawn this turn. Since library triggers on your draw step, you can have a phyrexian arena draw, or blue sun zenith for 15 during your upkeep, and you can choose to draw an additional 2 with library and put back 2 cards from the 15 drawn with zenith.
Glad you mentioned this. I was going to bring this up as well.
Call a judge before casting brainstorm in response to a Sylvan Library trigger, or better yet don't do it.
You can also use the replacement effect from Abundance, to "draw" the 3 cards from Sylvan Library without paying the 8 life (and even choose "land" or "nonland" for each of those).
My god - I had to stop at the very beginning - this new introduction to the subject matter is SO DOPE. It probably took a lot of time and energy but MY GOD it was worth it for me at least. If you can keep doing this sustainably, please do!!!
Moraug is worded that way to prevent infinite combats with sword of the animist type cards.
Cabal stronghold only cares about the land being both a swamp and a basic. So if you have a few basics + Urborg then Cabal Stronghold it still works. It just doesn't work for non-basic lands.
It's pretty rare for me to build a multicolor deck that has enough basic lands to make it work before I've drawn half the deck. Anything more than a splash of another color results in a hand full of dead weight.
@@Kraus- if you have the budget to fix your decks mana with all the untapped duals/triomes and fetches that you have few actual basics, you can afford coffers, stronghold works with urborg for budget decks that have mostly basics or decks that want extra basics bc of, say golgari and/or jund decks who can ramp out multiple basics quickly with green. Urborg and stronghold would still function for all basic lands. And hell, a Mono black deck should be running both just for full benefit
Cards like Llanowar Scout and Scaled Herbalist with bounce lands would also do the trick.
Jimmy: "Almost a quarter of your life total"
One Fifth: "Am I a joke to you?!?"
math is for blockers, right?
@@liquidfiretibby And ONLY for blockers.
*laughs in Eight Fortieths*
cries in thirty-two one sixtieths
@@blaze556922 liquor: am I a joke to you?
A more recent card I see people misplay a lot is Adeline. People think you have to attack with her to get her trigger when really you can attack with any creature and get her trigger.
Just got Adeline, can't wait to play!
"Cabal Stronghold doesn't work with Urborg."
True in most cases, but there are cases where it hilariously does work. If you're playing a Rakdos deck for example, and you have Urborg out with 4 Mountains and a Cabal Stronghold, those Mountains actually count now because they keep their Basic supertype and have now also become Swamps. I still don't think I'd run it outside of mono-black, but I have seen players get value out of it in Golgari, where they can use land tutor effects to get those cards out.
Well thank you for telling me about the basic super type
For me to include cabal stronghold I need atleast 15 basics if I do and I have urborg in non mono decks it's available for consideration in the deck depending on the strat
Thanks for sharing this! This was exactly my thoughts as well (with the basic land subtype). I was wondering if it worked like that or not
And they (The Command Zone) say we are WRONG.
Another thing that I've seen players forget about Urza's Saga is that the final chapter ability lets you fetch an artifact with mana cost 0 or 1, NOT converted mana cost. It can't fetch things like Esper Sentinel that cost colored mana or things like Sol Talisman that have no mana cost, only things whose actual mana cost is 0 or 1.
Oooo this is a good point. I never would’ve thought of that!
Wow. I never would have thought of the fact that it has to be colourless mana and couldn't be an X cost. Thanks!
^^^ This! Also it is immediately sacrificed if it loses is saga chapters (ie. through a blood moon effect)
I've seen the esper sentinel thing more than once. Admittedly I didn't know this the first time, but someone at the table explained, and since I've seen it once or twice more. Good call!
Wouldn't you lose the mana after the 3rd stage of that saga if you tap it before sacrificing it when you move to your main phase?
I think that Moraug is worded how he is for three reasons. One is the obvious that you can only get extra combats on your turn, two is to not print an infinite combo between him and sword of the animist so the land has to enter during a main phase and the third is to prevent him from being used as "landfall: untap all your creatures" which is what he would've effectively been if he granted another main phase or untapped immediately. There are plenty of creatures that can tap to put a land from your hand into play which would've allowed infinite combat steps with a bounceland alongside infinite landfall triggers and quasi-infinite mana if you had dorks. Basically "landfall: standard extra combat text" is just so insanely powerful that you could win through it without ever attacking.
You can still go for infinit combat steps with guys that let you play extra lands. You just wont be able to make infinit mana unless you have something that stores floating mana
I think you’re probably right that that’s why they didn’t give you extra main phases/landfall won’t work mid-combat.
But I believe the way the combats stack up was an oversight. I think it just read as “landfall=extra combat step” and they didn’t really rationalize that you wouldn’t be untapped for your regular combat.
It’s very, very unintuitive if it was supposed to function the way it was actually printed
@@JikaranTV you can't go infinite with just Morag + "put land into play" creature
If it was worded like a regular extra combat, it would go infinite with the sword of heart and home, as long as it deals damage to a player.
I still like Moraug's interaction with Fertilid though, since as long as you don't move out of your 2nd main phase you can get an extra combat step for every 2 mana. And if you've got something like Omnath, Locus of the Roil or The Ozolith and an Amulet of Vigor or Lotus Cobra you can really squeeze out a lot of extra attacks. Your timing is just a little weird to make it work is all.
everybody should take a note from cedh: pressure the players paying life for cards. cedh uses ad nauseum, but the same principal applies to Sylvan library and necropotence in casual. so as the Sylvan or Necro player, PAY THE LIFE NOW so you can get your interaction 😌
I just re watched "John dies at the end" yesterday for the first time in years and never realized Jimmy was in it. That is pretty awesome. It's a wild movie. Highly recommend. For a mature crowd only.
highly recommend the book series
@@knoble4797 Such a good book series. horror comedy at it s finest.
The discussion around Wheel of Misfortune's game theory is almost certainly why the card was released despite having a short story amount of text. The discussion sold me on wanting to play the card
28:20 while I do agree with you on the point of sylvan library, I think there is another way people play it wrong and I think this is also important to point out. sylvan library, after drawing the two cards, refers to 2 cards from your hand that are drawn this turn. so, if you for example have a phyrexian arena out and a sylvan library, you can put the card you drew off of the library back on top to keep 2 cards from your library without paying life for them. and more importantly, because it cares about cards DRAWN this turn, it will be blind to any replacement effects you have that replace your draw. for example, if you have an abundance, it replaces the draw with putting a card from your deck to your hand, which isnt drawing. so if you have both sylvan library and abundance out, you can replace all 3 of your draws with abundance, then you keep all of them without needing to pay life, because you dont have any cards in your hand that were "drawn" this turn
Like many Black cards in the Judgment set, Filth was intentionally weaker than Anger, Wonder, Brawn, and Valor because the prior expansion in the Odyssey block, Torment, was thematically and mechanically designed around Black. There were almost as many Black cards in Torment as White and Green cards combined, and the overall power level of Black was noticeably higher.
Judgment was intended to "correct" for Black's higher power level in the previous set, so the Black cards in the set's various cycles were toned down somewhat. This is why there are actually seven members in the Incarnation cycle: an uncommon for each color, and additional, more powerful rares in Green and White, Glory and Genesis.
(Incidentally, WotC's attempt at correction didn't work, and in Type 2 - the format that we call "Standard" these days - Mono-Black Control ended up being stronger and more dominant than at any point before or since.)
Fascinating.
It's not weak if you have Urborg
Madness is actually one of the things I have the hardest time explaining to people when I play Anje. They have a hard time understanding that I can play madness cards at instant speed.
Yeah if it’s instants
😁
@@Dark-Pikachu1 No, madness gives you permission to cast the spell as part of the resolution of the madness trigger. You can cast _any_ spell with madness through its madness cost whenever the card is discarded, regardless of whether it is an instant or not.
(Remember: since this is part of the resolution of a trigger, you could _never_ cast a sorcery at that time, since the stack is not empty. If casting non-instants this way was forbidden, cards other than instants would've never been printed with madness in the first place.)
18:00 there are creatures that can get lands from your graveyard when they attack. So it prevents infinite combos
My vote is for Sphinx of the Second Sun. There was a week a few months back where both MTG Muddstah and Commander VS had people playing it wrong, ruining the game. The extra beginning phase happens AFTER your second main phase, and you do not get a third main phase (go right to end step)
Actually, Sphinx of the Second Sun says "at the beginning of your postcombat main phase," so while it does not give you a third main phase, the untap and extra draw does happen before your second main phase ends.
Edit- thanks for the replies. Magic is hard.
I could be misinterpreting you, but it seems you are exemplifying what people get wrong about this card. The Sphinx ability TRIGGERS at the start of your post combat main phase, but the extra beginning phase OCCURS after the post combat main phase. Once you go to the extra beginning phase, you will not return to any main phase that turn
@@randomact2007 this is how everyone thinks it works. The card actually says, "at the beginning of your postcombat main phase, you get an additional beginning phase AFTER THIS PHASE" so the sphinx triggers at the beginning of your second main, but the extra phase is inserted AFTER the second main phase.
I always played it as main 2 - untap - upkeep - draw - endstep.
@@OMNIDC13 that's how it works haha I run it in my prismatic bridge deck
Ironically there's another card in magic that makes things weird that goes against the 'Announcing of a spell' example with Thoughtcast and Sylvala and it's called Lion's Eye Diamond. While it's technically a mana ability, it can only be activated as an instant so can't be activated to pay for announced spells.
This was intentionally designed to avoid a very easy way to cheat: announce a card in your hand, then sacrifice LED to pay for it. (Since you've moved the spell to the stack as part of announcing it, it's not in your hand when you pay LED's activation cost.)
@@therealax6 Close! You're right on the why but not on the how it came to be. When LED was designed, you had to activate mana abilities BEFORE you could cast a spell. There was no "announce, then activate" at the time Mirage came out. (This actually got someone a match loss or a DQ at a Pro Tour back in the day, but I forget the details.) That came in 6th Edition in 1999. The errata was added at that point in time so the card worked like it did when it was released; you are correct that it was never supposed to let you cast a spell from your hand, which it never has per game rules and then errata.
My friend was playing Sylvan Library like a Brainstorm where he was drawing 3 INTO HAND then putting whichever 2 (or up to 2) from his full hand back on top of his library. I knew it didn't work that way but never realized he was doing it that way.
Oops, at 20:20 you actually bring up Sylvan Library, I should refrain from commenting before I've finished the video.
That's the way old copies read. That's how I played Sylvan Library 20 years ago, last time I played it.
You guys deserve an Oscar for the Wheel of Misfortune debacle. Jimmy saying “ I’m out “ from the first line of text was priceless
My hypest play ever: I mulliganed down to four (could not draw lands (34 in deck btw)), and had a Swamp, Dark Ritual, and Necropotence plus something else that didn’t matter with those three in hand. Best first turn in mono black.
Did you draw 20 though?
@@nathangentry1419 I don’t remember exactly how much, but I probably drew around 12-15. It was a Vilis, Broker of Blood life-loss deck, so I needed to be careful about how much life I payed before getting Vilis out.
34 lands is probably too few. You won't have to hope you draw such a great hand when mulling to 4 if you up your land count.
@@Spike-hl2mw 34-38 is normal, at 34 the odds are 2/7 in opening. But if you want a quick solve. To start a game Draw 10 shuffle 3 back into your deck. (Rule 0) If you get mana screwed after seeing 1/10 of your deck that’s just poor deck building.
@@Spike-hl2mw It was my only cEDH deck, in fact my playgroup constantly teased me about running too many lands so getting that reply from someone with Spike in their name is a situational irony I find pretty funny. Thank you.
I also flood out all the time when I run 36+ lands in casual (just today, I flooded out in a 33 land Firesong & Sunspeaker Dragon’s Approach deck). Most of my curves are typically a 1-3 rectangle lol, that’s my playstyle, so usually my 5th+ land is a dead draw, which is why (except my big mana decks) I run between 32-34 lands and adjust over time with deck experience. Running more card draw and selection (like, ~12+) is a great way to slim your deck, you can grab a land you need or search for a major play piece. But that’s my two cents, run as many or as little lands as you think and feel your deck needs.
For why they designed Moraug that way, I think it's to introduce counterplay for your opponent; to maximize the value of your Moraug, you have to swing in the primary combat phase, and that lets your opponent soften you up without taking big losses because your creatures aren't as buffed. It also allows an entire main phase between the two swings which lets everyone decide how much they want to commit.
The card I often see played wrong is Sphinx of the Second Sun. Most times I've seen the line "after this phase" completely skipped over because the placement of that line is just before the reminder text and so much of it just texted so by the time that comes around in reading it people have already checked out.
17:00 I think Moraug was written this way to prevent pseudo-infinite combat steps:
- For example, if its landfall ability could trigger during combat; you could easily get infinite combat step with Sword of Hearth and Home or with Sun Titan and a fetch land in your graveyard.
- Similarly with Sun Titan and a fetch land in your graveyard, if Moraug was adding an additional main phase, you could get the same pseudo-infinite combat step this way. Sacrificing the fetch land during the additional main phase.
I always find looking to reddit for explanations on a majority of the cards mentioned and rarely find an exact answer. I couldn't thank you guys enough for the content in this video. I really hope to see more just like it in the near future.
Did you include that you don't draw from Scroll Rack? I know you have made that mistake multiple times in one of the Game Knights episodes.
People have already commented on the reasons Filth feels so out of place in its cycle, but I'd just like to note that it's actually stronger than you'd expect in Commander - not only because black is one of the more popular (if not the most popular) colors, but also because you can just run it with Urborg and give all your creatures unblockable. Actually, I might just put it in my Kamiz deck...
Pro tip if you have an effect that replaces drawing cards with revealing cards from your library and putting it into your hand you can get the two extra cards from Sylvan Library without having to pay life, eg abundance.
also cards that double your draws e.g. Teferi's Ageless Insight mean you draw 6 and still only put back up to 2, so you basically pay 8 to draw 5
Hands down the coolest combo i pulled off was casting Wheel of Misfortune with a Jared Carthalion equipped with a Pariahs Sheild and had the monarchy and chose 450 billion.
Me but with wheel of misfortune and intervention pact
I love my Jared Carthalion deck so much. One time I got him to a 1,659/1,659 with trample. That game was so chaotic
The biggest card I see everyone play wrong is Sphinx of the Second Sun. Even I played it wrong at first. It is worded stupidly. Basically, the additional beginning phase is AFTER the post combat phase. Which means it happens after your second main phase and before your end step.
Yep no Main Phase after.
23:00 Sylvan Library, a time NOT to pay the life is when you have another way to play those cards from the library. The example in the video was, 3 lands. If you have Oracle of Mul Daya, you can play lands off the top of your library, and play an additional land on your turn. So you play the 2 lands off the top of your library and you didn't have to pay the life.
Two weird interactions I discovered in arena with arcane bombardment
1. Discontinuity triggers bombardment before resolving and is effectively more value than a regular extra turn spell
2. Shark typhoon counts cards cast and casting multiple free spells with bombardment swarms the board fast
You got Cabal stronghold and Urborg wrong. Urborg does work with cabal stronghold but only with basic lands. So if you have 3 basic swamps, 2 basic plains, urborg and rec tower your stronghold will tap for 5
My issue with Necropotence and the reason why I no longer play it in my decks is the exile on discard effect. The majority of my black decks are graveyard oriented so the advantage of seeing more cards is greatly overshadowed by the inability to play/return them from the graveyard.
Also, a funny story about Brainstorm and why I'm happy you brought it up. A few months ago I was playing my Yuriko ninja deck that has Brainstorm in it. I topdecked brainstorm and played and cracked a fetch land before playing it and one of my opponents who is your typical arrogant legacy player said "Do you want to take that back, you sequenced that wrong" and acted all high and mighty like I was the naïve one when I declined. I then went to combat where I revealed the Temporal Trespass and Blightsteel Colossus I had stack on top of my deck with Brainstorm, because its role in that deck was not as a card draw spell but a topdeck fixer card, and yes that move killed the arrogant player.
I see your point on Necropotence but if your deck is more graveyard centric I image you have more way of sending cards directly into the graveyard i.e. self mill, Entomb like effects. I've personally always used Necro more as a hand fixing tool then a card advantage one.
I have played obeka wrong so often... Not waiting for the end of turn or beginning of the next end step trigger to happen so I can respond. Instead I always do it before it gets there and then sabotage myself.
Love your show!
In commander Brainstorm also adds utility when discard and wheel effects are used. It can let you wheel into cards in your hand, hide an important card from a discard effect.
oh dang this is my first command zone video i've watched in a while. I really liked that opening voiceover explaining the basic concept of the podcast, that's a really nice touch!
Something I learned recently (lile a couple weeks ago). If you have Torbran and another damage doubling effect on the board, if a source you control deals damage, it is the receiver that decides the order the damage modification are applied, not the controller of the source of the damage. You can look at Torbran rules on scryfall/gatherer to verifiy.
This applies to all replacement effects. In particular, if they have a damage _prevention_ effect, they can (and should) choose to apply that _first_ (before any doublers/triplers/increasers). Any damage reduced to 0 (or less) this way ceases to exist and will _not_ see any further increases, etc.
While we're at it (and while you probably know this, most people don't), remember also that combat damage is assigned ignoring all replacement effects: in particular, you have to ignore the increasing/doubling/etc. when assigning trample damage. If your 4/4 trample is blocked by a 0/3 with Torbran out, you still have to assign 3 to the creature and 1 to the player, even though Torbran will increase that to 5 and 3. You can't have the player take 5 damage. Likewise, if they block a 2/4 with two 2/2s, you can only kill one of them: you can't assign 1 damage to each and have Torbran increase it to lethal. (The one creature you kill _will_ be dealt 4 damage, but you can't split it in that scenario.)
Brainstorm can also be used to put your best cards on top of your library in response to a situation where you have to discard your hand. So, you can save cards and draw them next turn again.
Great informative discussion!
One mistake I made with my playgroup, in my early Magic years, was tapping my opponents creatures *after* they declared attackers, to make it so they couldn't attack (we didn't realize you could only tap stuff before attackers were declared).
I had a tap deck at the time and it was "so OP" that my friend had to do some rule diving to figure out ways to beat it. lol
thank you SO MUCH for the urzas saga clarification. I get so many games where the table always says "you cant get/keep the mana before it goes away" Will save this video time stamped for moments like those.
I often see Lim-Dûl's Vault played wrong. Thanks for Moraug, he was really confusing to me.
16:44 it is worded like that so it didn't go infinite with Uro in standard which had an attack trigger that allowed you to put a land into play. So if it wasn't phrased like that it would allow for infinite combats
also sword of the animist
@@theHeroBoy1313 so i know they design cards usually with standard in mind and actively try to avoid putting infinites in standard, which is why I said Uro, but you are correct. It does go infinite with sword of the animist
Uro is not a problem because Moraug doesn't trigger outside of your main phase.
One mechanic I see people messing up a lot is X spells. More often then not it is X spells with XX in the cost of the spell or activation. Great podcast, thanks fellas.
Necropotence plus Emergence Zone allows you to immediately play those cards you picked up during your end step before you discard them. wink-wink
Only a single time though. Would be a waste of it unless you were winning. Vedalken Orrey would be better for necro
I've played magic for YEARS and never realized thoughtcast worked like that. still learning. I would have just used the three islands to cast it before this episode hahaha
Casting a spell involves a few steps: you announce it, make choices (targets, modes...), determine its cost, then pay the cost, and then the spell is cast. (This is a simplified overview; refer to rule 601.2 and its subclauses if you want the full details.) When you pay any cost that involves mana, you can activate mana abilities before doing so (rule 118.2, and this special case in 601.2g); however, since paying a spell's cost happens _after_ you've determined its cost (which has already been reduced by affinity), if you sacrifice the treasures at this stage in the cast, they will have already reduced the cost.
This works for any spell or ability: you pay the costs _after_ making choices and determining costs. An example of this that happened to me a few days ago in Arena: I had an Alseid of Life's Bounty out, which is a creature that has an ability that reads "{1}, Sacrifice Alseid of Life's Bounty: Target creature or enchantment you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn." My opponent was targetting it with some spell that would destroy it and draw them cards, and I had no other creatures out.
The solution was to sacrifice it to itself in response. Activate the ability, declare _itself_ as the target, and then pay its cost, sacrificing it. This is perfectly legal, even though the ability would fizzle (no longer having a valid target, since it was sacrificed). Since the cost is paid _after_ choices and costs are determined, I can choose the creature itself as the target of its own ability, even though it will do nothing. (This way I could also fizzle my opponent's spell, no longer having a target, and deny them the cards.)
With Sylvan Library and it being a "Draw" effect, people need to remember that even if you only keep 1 card, you still DREW 3. Very important for smothering tithe and other similar effects.
This is also important to know if you have effects that can replace a draw, like Dredge or Underrealm Lich's ability. And when you replace one of the Sylvan draws, you don't have to pay the life, because you aren't drawing a card anymore. This makes Sylvan + Lich an amazing combo, because on your draw step you'll get to look at the top three and put one into hand and the other two into the graveyard THREE TIMES, seeing 9 cards total and "drawing" the 3 best, binning the rest (at least some of which you might want in the yard anyway) and paying no life.
@@Spike-hl2mw Be careful: you still have to resolve the rest of Sylvan Library's trigger. If you replace _all three_ of your draws, then you've drawn zero cards, and for the "choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn", you (probably) have no cards you can choose (unless you've drawn any during your upkeep) - _that_ is what cancels the rest of the effect.
If you only replace _some_ of the draws, then you _will_ have cards drawn this turn and you have to resolve the rest of the ability (if you haven't drawn two cards, you choose as many as you can).
Long story short: replacing the draws doesn't, by itself, nullify the rest of the trigger. It's the inability to choose cards drawn this turn (since you've probably drawn zero cards, having replaced those draws with other effects) what makes you not pay any life.
Jimmy touched on it a bit with Brainstorm but one of the other powerful things it does is puts cards back in your deck. If you don't want to wheel you can at least save 2 cards from it.
A recent one I just found out is Doubling Season + Aeve interaction. I've got an Aeve deck, and apparently I've been using it wrong the whole time because of a strange wording.
Aeve causes him to make tokens of itself with Storm, and Doubling Seasons says you get to double any tokens you CREATE. However, tokens that are copies of permanent spells aren't created, so Doubling Seasons will only double the counters that Aeve creates.
Yup same applies to something like Volo
The exact rule is this one:
608.3b If the object that’s resolving is a copy of a permanent spell, that object becomes a token permanent and is put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller. It is no longer a copy of a spell. The token put onto the battlefield this way is not “created” for the purposes of any replacement effects or triggered abilities that refer to creating a token.
Players were asking about the Moraug interaction just yesterday. Thanks for the episode!
A couple others that come up frequently:
-OG Selvala’s parley ability being a mana ability seems to trip people up since it can’t be interacted with.
-Tragic Arrogance/Rakdos the Showstopper/etc, basically cards where choices are made as part of a resolution. A lot of players wait to see the decisions made and then respond with protection abilities…not quite how it works.
-More of a pet peeve: people revealing lands to the Port Town/Fortified Village cycle without intending to use the mana. Just giving away free info.
>cast my wheel of misfortune
>Call 85 million
>Self destruct
>Refuse to elaborate
>Leave
No wrong you call 69 sir
I think the sentence "1 life for 1 card" in the Necropotence part is a bit misleading, bc when you pay 15 life you will draw 15 and probably "draw 15 and discard 12". Thats no longer "1 life for 1 card", its more like "surveil 15 draw 3" or something like that.
Dont get me wrong, "surveil 15 draw 3" is probably also worth 15 life and people should use it more often and more aggressively.
not quite its draw 15 exile 12
@@noehonegger4624 wanted to compare it with existing mechanics. You are more correct bc they never hit the grave.
@@noobkiller1229 also since flash is a thing you can use all of those
@@noehonegger4624 good luck with that.
I like to think of early Grand Abolisher type plays as meaningful in the way of hampering opponents, because forcing opponents to make suboptimal plays increases the likelihood that they'll make a mistake, or give me the opportunity to set the pace of the game. It's not nearly as aggravating as you make it out to be, but I do appreciate that you mentioned that it was more subjective. At the end of the day, if it eats a removal spell for something more impactful later down the line, then it's done its job.
One of my favorite reactions is when you slap flying on something that has colossus hammer because hammer removes flying when equipped but it does not prevent them from getting flying after equipped.
I actually have just realized the power of Necroptence recently. I built a K'rrk deck and put greed in and looked at the board took my life down from 35 to 3 so I was able to play Repay in Kind then I extort bringing me up to 4 life then tapped my lands to play for tapped my land for pestilence winning the game out of nowhere
I actually cut Greed FOR Necropotence in my K’rrik cEDH deck, never looked back
@@MeanDeanHarrison I just now put Necropotence in and I won on turn 5 by Exiling till my health was at 5 the played Repay in Kind taking my health to 1 then swung for game. I agree Necroptence is great but I'll still keep Greed and Vilis in to always have good card draw
Thank you for clearing up Fury of Akoum! I’m going to put that in Surrak Dragonclaw Temur dragons. Y’all rock! Can’t wait for the newest Game Knights.
In regards to looting/necropotence effects: Something I often tell my playgroup when trying to make them more comfortable with tossing cards is, "I only put good cards in my deck" lol.
It's a bit of a joke obviously, but the idea is there.
Let go of the card you lost, because the next card can be just as good. You only put good cards in your deck after all.
Had my best start last weekend: Turn 1 Forest, Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, Enlightened Tutor for a Rites of Flourishing. And I was playing Sythis 🙂
One recent card that I've seen misunderstood is Cemetery Illuminator. People will often resolve the etb exile then look at their top card when actually you can check the top card at any time, including before you exile the first card from the etb.
I once played a Yeva deck not realizing that trample doesn’t work when blocking. 🤦🏻♂️
Checking "Did I lose because of Sylvan Library life loss?" is a useless check because you being low would change how other players look at you at the table, so it's a pointless thought experiment
That’s what the question is. Did me losing this life lose me the game, being focused for being low is part of that consideration
Cabal Stronghold does work with Urborg if you’re lands are basics of another type. If you have a BASIC Mountain and Urborg, the basic mountain will count.
Awesome video gentlemen, I am fairly considered an amateur/beginner player to MTG and your video has helped me tons. Thanks!
Well I definitely didn't play the blue myojin in Jhoira for years not realizing it would never actually get the divinity counter because it was being cast from suspend... lol
Me learning this week Burnt Offering cannot be played in mono black !
Maybe people have figured it out by now but I think people play Sphinx of the Second Sun wrong a lot. I've seen many people play it as if the extra "beginning step" happens before their postcombat main phase when it actually happens after that phase (usually between second main phase and end step).
As someone who runs both paradox haze and sphinx of the second sun, I have noticed this. I use it for my Sisay shrines because it's pretty solid there, but people do tend to not notice that it provides the extra upkeep and main phase after your post combat main. They tend to play it as if it were a second Paradox Haze and it's not. Lol..
@@stfinalwrath Yeah, I tend to consider it a glorified Wilderness Reclamation. It's still a good card, though.
It's worth noting that if you have ways to draw cards on your upkeep, you can put THOSE cards back for Sylvan Library too. So if you draw off, say, Mishra's Bauble, you can put that card back on top after using Sylvan Library.
I know you guys were talking about the rules and the form of the cycle, but I just want to say that filth is actually very viable if you can reasonably rely on having an Urborg out.
that intro was insane. also great choice for a show topic, im inundated and bored by set reviews and product fatigue has set in some time ago. but this is a great idea to talk about. love these podcast episodes
Defensive Formation is responsible for me learning a lot of new rules for combat. Like "I choose not to be trampled"
That's a really interesting card I didn't know existed. I love the rules implications. If you want to spend the whole game explaining rules to your opponents, find some old cards with banding and put those in your deck :)
@@therealax6 I have like 4 banding creatures lol and my friend just heavy sighed and said "don't" when I got excited and showed him, but yes Defensive is amazing, only a few cents too
There are many ways to get lands in play with attacks and many new card designs for powerful aggro commander cards is geared towards getting resources (cards, impulsive draws, mana, lands) through combat, so extra postcombat main phase would change Moraug a lot.
Moraug was also printed with cards like Nahiri's Lithoforming that can dump a whole bunch of lands at once. Feels kind of bad to be on the recieving end of 10 combat steps from just 1 spell.
Rhystic Study. I've had people miss the card draw trigger when it's a may trigger and try to draw a bunch of cards from the last few spells cast.
Great episode guys, I know we have disagreed on other issues, but I have always loved your game content and your approach to this game we all love. Keep up the great work and thank you for all you do.
During the Sylvan Library conversation. As one who is a high power/Cedh player your life total is a resource. Don't be afraid to take the 8 from it for the extra cards.
I am not a cedh Player, but I have been learning about this game from one for more than 2 years and what I have learned is that Sylvan Library, although literally everyone is playing it, requires more skill and experience at Deck building than many other cards. Your deck needs to contain just the right cards, every Slot needs to be well selected and this card doesnt forgive even one wrong decision you make. True, there is also Sethis which makes that life loss kinda meaningless in the longrun, but still, I am very sceptic towards this card
@@draconicarttheartofblades3023 Should damn near be played in every green deck unless your deck doesn't need the card draw.
@@mcman507 True, maybe its like they said and I cannot handle that card just yet. I always rely on other card draw, Elemental Bond and Garruks Uprising since most Decks I play gave Green, and I cant complain about the card draw, tho I know experienced players will always try to shut your engine down, no matter the boardstate
Imagine responding to Wheel of Misfortune with Deflecting Palm, but then bidding 0 because you don't actually want to wheel.
that is a real 200 IQ play
It was only apparent to me recently, but effects like Wilderness Reclamation and Seed born Muse you can tap all your land before the trigger and essentially have double mana for an instant or whatever. Idk if that's been obvious for everyone else lol.
I once bid 21 on a Wheel of Misfortune in a 1v1 game. My opponent bid 20 and their face was priceless. People tend to go for multiples of 5 so going one more can really help you out.
Kinda in line with a lot of the cards you mentioned where people play it too early but I see a lot of people play scute swarm as their three drop and it’s super easy to remove. It’s so much better to play it on the turn you drop your sixth land before you drop your sixth land.
I use the life loss of sylvan library as an advantage in my belodros deck by ultimately playing a profane transfusion
I love the flashback to price of glory. I have that card in Tibalt, Cosmic Imposter to hate on control players hahaha.
"The most confusing card ever."
I mean people have literally had Lagrella explained to them and still not understood how she works :P
The wording on Lagrella is quite bad.
It’s the epitome of modern card design: an effect that usually takes 1 sentence to explain instead using a paragraph of text for a small upside
Ooh, I got one: Fertilid can be used offensively! It says "Target Player" searches for a basic land and then shuffles. So if someone has manipulated the top of their deck, it would be a shame if you came along and shuffled it for them.
Riftsweeper is a card I've recently been playing with, and in the deck it's meant to shuffle my own exiled cards. But I've only ever cast it and targeted suspended spells, such as profane tutor, and greater gargaroth.
The interaction between Sylvan Library and Uba Mask is fun.
The Mourag tip is crazy helpful! I'm currently building a deck with him in it with zopandrel... and would have played him wrong. Much apreciated
playing your land before you attack is correct in 1v1, it lets you represent a wider variety of tricks .
True...unless that leaves you with only cards known to your opponent/no cards in hand. Then all you did was tell them you have no tricks.
Moraug's wording helps stop abuse. If it untapped before the combat step, you could enter a scenario where you have a creature that taps to put a land into play, then that landfall untaps all your things, then you can repeat the process. Add a landfall draw card trigger and you can burn through a chunk of your deck with a bunch of combat steps (if you have vigilance since you wouldn't get the untap in this scenario). By untapping during combat, the wording prevents this since tapping during combat wont trigger the extra combat steps, and you can't abuse the landfall triggers as a way to infinitely untap all your creatures.
I think moraug is worded the way it is so that it DOES work with multiple landfalls. If it worded as untap now, and then you get an extra combat, you won't untap between each combat so it's essentially capped at one. Because of how it is worded, you'll untap on each of the extra combats and thus it actually works with fetch lands
Regarding Sylvan Library, a lot of people don’t play it correctly when they drew cards prior to the trigger due to sylvan effect applying to any cards drawn the turn. In one of the most famous weirdest interactions in magic, Brainstorm + Sylvan requires a judge or something due to the effect requiring manipulation of hidden information.
Example, if you draw a card in your upkeep, shuffle your hand, then go to sylvan effect there is no way for an opponent to know what cards were there in hand already or drawn and have to only take the player’s word; Less honest players can put any card from their hand into the sylvan library.
One missed talking point with Sylvan Library is that the card only makes you put back "two cards drwan this turn". In the case of Alhammerets Archive, you would draw 6, then you only have to put back 2. You would keep 4 as a result. Also works with phyrexian arena in a way that you can put back a card drawn with Phyrexian arena instead of a card off of Sylvan Library.
Important on Sylvan Library that they did not mention:
Sylvan Library cares about cards drawn this turn, you can brainstorm on upkeep, put 2 cards on top that were on your hand already, then draw 3 on your draw step, you now have 6 cards to choose from to put on top from the 2 needed of sylvan library. You just need to be able to prove that those 3 cards from brainstorm were drawn this turn (official rulling), so just keep them on a "separated pile" of your hand.
For Moraug, there's a few creatures like Sakura Tribe Scout that let you tap them to play a land. Because Moraug does not give you extra main phases, he doesn't enable infinite landfalls with the Ravnica bounce lands.
Also, if the untap was immediate, you could go infinite with the Scout.
I think the main reason Moraug is worded that way is to prevent taking combat steps equal to the basic lands in your library with things like Sword of the Animist or Sword of Hearth and Home.
Ha! This is like the whole reason I started this channel. Explaining Magic rules and pointing out crazy interactions between cards. I just uploaded a video on the newly spoiled Myrkul and how he interacts with things like Mutate, animated lands, Scroll of Fate and Manifest, and more.
Just watched that video. That land stuff was really interesting. Crazy that shock lands don't give the enchantment the ability.
@@craig1287 I'm halfway through watching this one, it's not what I expected it to be on, but still very interesting. I see these pop up all the time.
And thanks for watching the Myrkul video. I hope it all made sense. That land stuff is rea cool.
Look at necro/naus in cedh, if you're on more than 5-8 life after you pobably didn't go deep enough. Really depends on your wincons but it carries over.
The difference is that, in cEDH, you'll almost never get another turn after that: you'll either win the game or be eliminated from it. Casual decks often aren't prepared to win on the spot, even after a big draw spell.
Moraug is phrased weirdly to avoid untapping in main phase, because there are infinite combos that you could hit if you untapped everything on landfall (and just ignored the extra combats)
Urborg sorta works with Cabal stronghold. A basic mountain with an urborg in play is also a basic swamp.