Barry Windham made everything look effortless. None of it *was* effortless, but Windham was so coordinated and talented, it all *appeared* effortless. Him and Cowboy Bob Orton both had that attribute...not too many others have had it.
I’ve seen him wrestle against flair in what is the modern day equivalent of “house shows” in Miami Beach several times. Most were 60 minute draw matches. Some of the most amazing matches I’ve ever seen to this day.
I was watching old Wccw matches the other night with David Von Erich.. I thought the same thing as well. It definitely would've been an interesting match up
Well obviously if David would have lived and if Magnum wouldn't have had his accident both of them would have had a run with the NWA title but I remember a interview Jim Crockett did many years ago and they asked him about Flair's career as NWA World Champion and Magnum's accident and he said that Magnum would have been Champ but he also said that at that time (the 1980's) that regardless of who won the title from Flair that it was going to be brief and that Magnum would have been a intermediate Champ because Flair put more butts in the seats and he Drew more money then anybody else in the company so Ric was always going to be the Dominant NWA World Champion regardless of who won it from him....That is exactly what Crockett said so that being said it don't matter who it was (David Von Erich, Magnum T.A. or Barry Windham) they all would have been intermediate NWA Champs because the belt was ALWAYS coming back to Flair and Ric was always going to be the DOMINANT NWA WORLD CHAMPION in the 1980's.
Wonder if limiting Flair would've knocked down his appetite to live his character for as long as he got to, and maybe curb some of his excesses over time.
I think the plans Kevin mentioned would have been ideal, but even if those tragedies had not occured, non of them were Flair on the mic so don't think they would have drawn as well so the belt would have always gone back to Flair ultimately. The closest one to fill his spot would have been David or a heel David better yet (mind you I didn't say he was better than the other two, just proven to be more versatile therefore better suited for the position), but times would have changed anyway so it would have come down to his political standing as much as anything else. And that would have been a question mark being as he wasn't a Dusty guy like the other two.
Windham could have been the next big thing in the WWF. A guy like that that had it all, the size, the agility, the technical skills, the pedigree, Vince could have turned him into the next Hogan, or at the very least the next Randy Savage, Piper or Ted DiBiase. Rotunda has said leaving the WWF just as it became huge was a big mistake that he and Barry made... but for different reasons. Rotunda said he was young and dumb, but Barry couldn't abide the schedule. Rotunda has also implied that Barry never wanted to be the face of any company. WWF, NWA, WCW. It is unfortunate. Barry truly was a unicorn wrestler.
The falling out with Dusty was because Barry and Blackjack bailed on him and Crockett in 1985 when Dusty was going to push him to the moon and Blackjack was going to be Flair's partner against Tully and Wahoo. Barry said he left over money...but unlike Mike Rotundo who gave notice and offer to do the jobs on the way out...Barry and Blackjack just no showed. That's when Dusty brought Magnum in to replace Barry. Barry goes to the WWF with Rotundo...who Dusty let go without jobbing him out of respect. Windham admits he blew it in the WWF when he went stir crazy from all the travel and never being home...unlike in the NWA where most guys were home at night before the TBS expansion...and just quit. He was really banished to Florida because both Dusty and Vince felt they couldn't trust him to "wig out"...Barry's own words. Barry was only brought back because of Magnum asked Dusty to bring him back. Barry even acknowledged this and his own behavior and how it took awhile for Dusty to trust him again.
Some wrestlers didn't want the World Championship, even if they would have been phenominal. Some liked the freedom to go to whatever territory they could to make money, for others being Champion would be a loss of money coupled with a brutal travel schedule.
I respect the hell out of Sullivan, but there is a problem with this. Sullivan and Dusty were not on the board of directors. I don't doubt that David, Barry and Magnum would have been champs, but nobody was gonna unseat Ric Flair. He was the ultimate heel and could wrestle anyone. He still would have been long term champ, but any or those 3 could have easily had short runs in between, because they were fantastic too, but would not have drawn heat like that
Well if you think about it . Between all of them and if they all had gotten title runs. It would have automatically made ric flairs runs shorter and less if them.
All four, Flair, David Von Erich, Windham, and Steamboat would have been a helluva round robin to battle each other for the NWA heavyweight title throughout the mid 80s - early 90s. Your champion had to rassle night after night with the top guys in each territory. These four could have done that. With that said, the political landscape was changing as the territory system gave way to McMahon and Crockett.
Barry Windham, Ricky Stemboat, David Vonerick, Magnum TA!? Flair would have had a lot of hard days to stay on top and my guess is he would not have! Man what could have been.
Yep. Dusty spent all of the 80's trying to find the NWA heir apparent. Barry didn't want it; David died and Magnum had his accident. Only Sting made it and only after Dusty was gone for a time to WWE... That's why I frown when ppl say Dusty hogged the spotlight for himself. ..
Dusty put himself vs Flair to make himself look great. None of the Von Erichs would have been a long term champion to unreliable drugs etc. Magnum was going to be the man till the car wreck. People don't understand Flair being in a limo saved his life probably a 1000 times instead of driving drunk.
Kevin Sullivan is the man and he finally tells the real story why Barry never got the NWA title. Dusty Rhodes took half the Florida roster to Crockett in his new booker position. Barry took an unexpected pay cut going with Dusty, so he up and quit JCP to join Rotunda in WWF. In 1986 Magnum TA asked his old friend Barry to squash heat with Dusty and return to Crockett. Imagine Barry Windham gets Ric Flair for the NWA title change, maybe at Starrcade instead of Nikita Koloff, Flexy Luger or Ron Garvin. Then add the fact Barry married into wealth and didn't need to wrestle, left WWF due to insane travel. After 1988 his career never got back on track. Barry only worked for WWF or WCW when he felt like it. I like when he adopted the Lone Wolf character and again used the family clawhold
It would have been awesome seeing Barry as world champion more. I know in wrestling it’s whoever is putting asses in seats gets the tittles. No one cares about a guy winning same tittle 16 times. Same problem today in wwe
Great stuff! No doubt Barry, DVE, and TA on the face side were the future of the world OUTSIDE of the WWF machine. Dusty still had epic charisma, but he was already in his 40's once Vince began his national run. None of those guys were as charismatic as Dusty. BUT I think TA and DVE had a bit more charisma than Barry. HOWEVER Barry was the best in the ring AND still over enough to dictate a main event push. With that said, Flair would have still been in that mix. And still be world champ. BECAUSE the bottom line is money! Flair and Dusty were guys who had charisma on par with Hogan, Andre, Savage, and Piper. Vince just had that epic machine behind those guys to get the most out of it. So on the heel side, Flair as the world champ with the 4H around him PRINTED MONEY!
Agreed that Flair would have still been in the mix; because as Jim Cornette said, you needed a good heel to draw heat against the baby face; and often the NWA champ was a heel because more money was made travelling the territories and wrestling the top baby faces.
Flair wouldn't have a choice. The NWA president decided who was going to be champion, so if Flair caused a ruckus he'd be persona no grata for a while. In 1984 JCP wasn't as dominant as it was in 1987. Fritz, Watts, Eddie Graham and Geigel all had a say and all had their own agendas. Only after Fritz & Watts left the NWA would JCP basically become the NWA.
And the only people who voted for Flair to become champion, in 1981, were Crockett and Vince's dad. In that scenario where those four guys are still basically running the NWA, Ric would have likely gone to New York much sooner than he eventually would.
Fritz and Watts left because Crockett and Flair had a stranglehold on the title. Flair was, and is; the master backstage politician. Flair made all the choices!
johntober - No, you are talking nonsense. Flair was a hard worker, so he was tolerated, but if he caused problems they would have booked him with a shooter and took the belt off of him for real in the ring. Fritz left because he wanted Kerry to be champion and was annoyed at his very short reign. Watts left because he wanted to partner with Vince after TBS screwed him out of the 6:05 timeslot. If the NWA wanted someone instead of Flair, and if the guy wanted the belt and all it entailed, then Flair would not have been champion. Most guys didn't want the schedule so said that they did not want the belt.
Timelines don't add up there, for that transition. David to Barry I might buy; but not Barry to Magnum. It was a couple of more years before Magnum was in that spot and Barry wasn't in the spot to take it from David. I can see David, ack to Flair, to Windham, to Flair, to Magnum; but, not what Sullivan said.
Jeff Nettleton it sort of does, by 85’ Magnum was a leading figure. What doesn’t make since is a face dropping it to another face. DVE was a tweener and worked heel in Florida so I could see him dropping it to Barry. The rest is is a bit hard to see from that perspective.
Babyface nwa champions never got long title runs. I doubt Windham talented as he was would've gotten a long run. David, I was never impressed with his ring work but his mic skills definitely yes, so I believe he could've carried the belt for a while with magnum waiting in the wings for the belt.
One of the most natural guys in the ring; smooth as glass. he could work with anyone, was a good looking guy who drew female fans and had a tough enough image that guys respected him and cheered him. Perfect babyface. Also, he could work heel and was an especially crafty sort of heel, plus, his size dwarfed a lot of guys, once he filled out his frame (he was pretty thin in his younger days, but bulked up by the time he was with Crockett). Thing was, Barry had grown up around the business, knew the politics and didn't really play them or care. He was a pretty mellow guy who was happy where he was, doing what he was. Flair and David Von Erich were guys who were driven and groomed for those top spots.
Just imagine how the face of the NWA would have changed had David Von Erich, Barry and Magnum all had runs with the belt. Flair probably would have had only half the stints he ended up getting as champ. He might have even jumped to the WWF way sooner they he actually did. Might have even did some AWA time?
Barry was smoother than an egg. He had natural ability in the ring. 6'6", 280 and could move like Steamboat. He was also believable. He could work with Hawk & Animal or he could work with Brad Armstrong. The most recent wrestler with that size and natural ability is Randy Orton.
Barry is tops of the list of underrated performers of all time IMO. Dude was amazing in his day.
Barry was incredible in his prime
Barry was awesome.
Barry Windham 4 horsemen had such potential in 1988.
Barry windham was great period
Barry Windham made everything look effortless. None of it *was* effortless, but Windham was so coordinated and talented, it all *appeared* effortless. Him and Cowboy Bob Orton both had that attribute...not too many others have had it.
I haven’t watched wrestling in years. But I love listening to the stories from the good old days when wrestling wasn’t sports entertainment.
During this time it was sports entertainment. Vince's dynamic in the 80's created it.
ditto
U ain't missing shit
It was sports entertainment. they just kept it quiet. greatest kayfabe breaking interview was Roddy struggling to admit the concept of "selling"
Barry had everything he needed to be a GIANT in the industry, except for an interest in doing so.
Barry's match against Ric Flair on World Wide Wrestling back in early 1987 is one of the best matches you'll ever see.
philaman1972 the one from Greenville, SC?
One was of their 5 star matches was from Baltimore Crockett cup 87.
@@Michael1966W Fayetteville, NC.
I’ve seen him wrestle against flair in what is the modern day equivalent of “house shows” in Miami Beach several times. Most were 60 minute draw matches. Some of the most amazing matches I’ve ever seen to this day.
Barry Windham vs David Von Erich in their primes for world title. Would have been a hell of a match.
Totally agree
I was watching old Wccw matches the other night with David Von Erich.. I thought the same thing as well. It definitely would've been an interesting match up
No Doubt!
Then there was Sting in '87 and '88 getting pushed but was one of the best feuds during the late 80's with The Great Muta.
I always loved Kevin sullivan,he's brilliant in so many ways and brought something different to wrestling a little later on😎
Greatest heel ever. Period..
He makes a great point; Flair wouldn’t have held the title anywhere near as much had Windham, David Von Erich and Magnum been given runs as NWA champ.
Well obviously if David would have lived and if Magnum wouldn't have had his accident both of them would have had a run with the NWA title but I remember a interview Jim Crockett did many years ago and they asked him about Flair's career as NWA World Champion and Magnum's accident and he said that Magnum would have been Champ but he also said that at that time (the 1980's) that regardless of who won the title from Flair that it was going to be brief and that Magnum would have been a intermediate Champ because Flair put more butts in the seats and he Drew more money then anybody else in the company so Ric was always going to be the Dominant NWA World Champion regardless of who won it from him....That is exactly what Crockett said so that being said it don't matter who it was (David Von Erich, Magnum T.A. or Barry Windham) they all would have been intermediate NWA Champs because the belt was ALWAYS coming back to Flair and Ric was always going to be the DOMINANT NWA WORLD CHAMPION in the 1980's.
Wonder if limiting Flair would've knocked down his appetite to live his character for as long as he got to, and maybe curb some of his excesses over time.
Very interesting story on the NWA title,great insight on display there.
I understand what Sullivan is saying but doesn't matter what happened. NOBODY could have carried the belt and drew like Flair back then.
Kevin’s level of Boston is 9999
I think the plans Kevin mentioned would have been ideal, but even if those tragedies had not occured, non of them were Flair on the mic so don't think they would have drawn as well so the belt would have always gone back to Flair ultimately.
The closest one to fill his spot would have been David or a heel David better yet (mind you I didn't say he was better than the other two, just proven to be more versatile therefore better suited for the position), but times would have changed anyway so it would have come down to his political standing as much as anything else. And that would have been a question mark being as he wasn't a Dusty guy like the other two.
David Von Erich vs Barry Windham is a real dream match.
I'd like to see who was taller between David and Barry. Battle of the big men
From what I remember, David was 6'7' and Barry was 6' 6".
Kevin was such a good heel 😄
Wow.Thats wild.All three of those guys would have made great world champions.Even though Barry won it later down the line.
This is great insider information. I love it.
Windham could have been the next big thing in the WWF. A guy like that that had it all, the size, the agility, the technical skills, the pedigree, Vince could have turned him into the next Hogan, or at the very least the next Randy Savage, Piper or Ted DiBiase. Rotunda has said leaving the WWF just as it became huge was a big mistake that he and Barry made... but for different reasons. Rotunda said he was young and dumb, but Barry couldn't abide the schedule. Rotunda has also implied that Barry never wanted to be the face of any company. WWF, NWA, WCW. It is unfortunate. Barry truly was a unicorn wrestler.
Barry wasn't bigger than what he was cause berry didn't wanna be dude was awesome in the ring smooth as butter
The falling out with Dusty was because Barry and Blackjack bailed on him and Crockett in 1985 when Dusty was going to push him to the moon and Blackjack was going to be Flair's partner against Tully and Wahoo. Barry said he left over money...but unlike Mike Rotundo who gave notice and offer to do the jobs on the way out...Barry and Blackjack just no showed. That's when Dusty brought Magnum in to replace Barry. Barry goes to the WWF with Rotundo...who Dusty let go without jobbing him out of respect. Windham admits he blew it in the WWF when he went stir crazy from all the travel and never being home...unlike in the NWA where most guys were home at night before the TBS expansion...and just quit. He was really banished to Florida because both Dusty and Vince felt they couldn't trust him to "wig out"...Barry's own words. Barry was only brought back because of Magnum asked Dusty to bring him back. Barry even acknowledged this and his own behavior and how it took awhile for Dusty to trust him again.
Arn said Barry just didn’t want it. Just money in his pocket,a fast car and a hot woman on his arm
Yep that's exactly what he said
Now those are some goals!
Greedy D
Keys to the Porsche. Tank full of gas.
Some wrestlers didn't want the World Championship, even if they would have been phenominal. Some liked the freedom to go to whatever territory they could to make money, for others being Champion would be a loss of money coupled with a brutal travel schedule.
Piper is the greatest heel. "The Task Master" is a very close second.
Terry Funk is #1.
@@patale1640 Terry Funk is awesome
I respect the hell out of Sullivan, but there is a problem with this. Sullivan and Dusty were not on the board of directors. I don't doubt that David, Barry and Magnum would have been champs, but nobody was gonna unseat Ric Flair. He was the ultimate heel and could wrestle anyone. He still would have been long term champ, but any or those 3 could have easily had short runs in between, because they were fantastic too, but would not have drawn heat like that
Well if you think about it . Between all of them and if they all had gotten title runs. It would have automatically made ric flairs runs shorter and less if them.
All four, Flair, David Von Erich, Windham, and Steamboat would have been a helluva round robin to battle each other for the NWA heavyweight title throughout the mid 80s - early 90s. Your champion had to rassle night after night with the top guys in each territory. These four could have done that.
With that said, the political landscape was changing as the territory system gave way to McMahon and Crockett.
Idk what he's talking about didn't Dusty go up North first!??
Barry Windham, Ricky Stemboat, David Vonerick, Magnum TA!? Flair would have had a lot of hard days to stay on top and my guess is he would not have! Man what could have been.
Yep. Dusty spent all of the 80's trying to find the NWA heir apparent. Barry didn't want it; David died and Magnum had his accident. Only Sting made it and only after Dusty was gone for a time to WWE... That's why I frown when ppl say Dusty hogged the spotlight for himself. ..
Dusty put himself vs Flair to make himself look great.
None of the Von Erichs would have been a long term champion to unreliable drugs etc. Magnum was going to be the man till the car wreck. People don't understand Flair being in a limo saved his life probably a 1000 times instead of driving drunk.
Kevin Sullivan is the man and he finally tells the real story why Barry never got the NWA title. Dusty Rhodes took half the Florida roster to Crockett in his new booker position. Barry took an unexpected pay cut going with Dusty, so he up and quit JCP to join Rotunda in WWF. In 1986 Magnum TA asked his old friend Barry to squash heat with Dusty and return to Crockett. Imagine Barry Windham gets Ric Flair for the NWA title change, maybe at Starrcade instead of Nikita Koloff, Flexy Luger or Ron Garvin. Then add the fact Barry married into wealth and didn't need to wrestle, left WWF due to insane travel. After 1988 his career never got back on track. Barry only worked for WWF or WCW when he felt like it. I like when he adopted the Lone Wolf character and again used the family clawhold
It would have been awesome seeing Barry as world champion more. I know in wrestling it’s whoever is putting asses in seats gets the tittles. No one cares about a guy winning same tittle 16 times. Same problem today in wwe
Great stuff! No doubt Barry, DVE, and TA on the face side were the future of the world OUTSIDE of the WWF machine. Dusty still had epic charisma, but he was already in his 40's once Vince began his national run. None of those guys were as charismatic as Dusty. BUT I think TA and DVE had a bit more charisma than Barry. HOWEVER Barry was the best in the ring AND still over enough to dictate a main event push.
With that said, Flair would have still been in that mix. And still be world champ. BECAUSE the bottom line is money! Flair and Dusty were guys who had charisma on par with Hogan, Andre, Savage, and Piper. Vince just had that epic machine behind those guys to get the most out of it. So on the heel side, Flair as the world champ with the 4H around him PRINTED MONEY!
Agreed that Flair would have still been in the mix; because as Jim Cornette said, you needed a good heel to draw heat against the baby face; and often the NWA champ was a heel because more money was made travelling the territories and wrestling the top baby faces.
He would interesting if david von erich stay live won belt ric flair and barry windham six months
Interesting theory but Flair wasn't going to share that title with anyone for very long during that time!!
Flair wouldn't have a choice. The NWA president decided who was going to be champion, so if Flair caused a ruckus he'd be persona no grata for a while. In 1984 JCP wasn't as dominant as it was in 1987. Fritz, Watts, Eddie Graham and Geigel all had a say and all had their own agendas. Only after Fritz & Watts left the NWA would JCP basically become the NWA.
And the only people who voted for Flair to become champion, in 1981, were Crockett and Vince's dad. In that scenario where those four guys are still basically running the NWA, Ric would have likely gone to New York much sooner than he eventually would.
Fritz and Watts left because Crockett and Flair had a stranglehold on the title. Flair was, and is; the master backstage politician. Flair made all the choices!
Vince and Crockett voting and they were the last men standing; as was Flair.
johntober - No, you are talking nonsense. Flair was a hard worker, so he was tolerated, but if he caused problems they would have booked him with a shooter and took the belt off of him for real in the ring. Fritz left because he wanted Kerry to be champion and was annoyed at his very short reign. Watts left because he wanted to partner with Vince after TBS screwed him out of the 6:05 timeslot. If the NWA wanted someone instead of Flair, and if the guy wanted the belt and all it entailed, then Flair would not have been champion. Most guys didn't want the schedule so said that they did not want the belt.
Timelines don't add up there, for that transition. David to Barry I might buy; but not Barry to Magnum. It was a couple of more years before Magnum was in that spot and Barry wasn't in the spot to take it from David. I can see David, ack to Flair, to Windham, to Flair, to Magnum; but, not what Sullivan said.
Jeff Nettleton it sort of does, by 85’ Magnum was a leading figure. What doesn’t make since is a face dropping it to another face. DVE was a tweener and worked heel in Florida so I could see him dropping it to Barry. The rest is is a bit hard to see from that perspective.
Jeff Nettleton that is if David had at least 6 to 9 months and Barry had a good 6 months as well that the timeline would add up.
DVE was suppose to win the belt in 84. TA was suppose to win the belt at Starrcade 86. Two talented guys smh
Babyface nwa champions never got long title runs. I doubt Windham talented as he was would've gotten a long run. David, I was never impressed with his ring work but his mic skills definitely yes, so I believe he could've carried the belt for a while with magnum waiting in the wings for the belt.
Damn Dusty Rhodes was keeping everyone money lol I feel Barry I'm gone I be back n two years nwa
I just never got what was so great about Barry
He was a Awesome worker...and have a great match with anyone
One of the most natural guys in the ring; smooth as glass. he could work with anyone, was a good looking guy who drew female fans and had a tough enough image that guys respected him and cheered him. Perfect babyface. Also, he could work heel and was an especially crafty sort of heel, plus, his size dwarfed a lot of guys, once he filled out his frame (he was pretty thin in his younger days, but bulked up by the time he was with Crockett). Thing was, Barry had grown up around the business, knew the politics and didn't really play them or care. He was a pretty mellow guy who was happy where he was, doing what he was. Flair and David Von Erich were guys who were driven and groomed for those top spots.
Just imagine how the face of the NWA would have changed had David Von Erich, Barry and Magnum all had runs with the belt. Flair probably would have had only half the stints he ended up getting as champ. He might have even jumped to the WWF way sooner they he actually did. Might have even did some AWA time?
Barry was smoother than an egg. He had natural ability in the ring. 6'6", 280 and could move like Steamboat. He was also believable. He could work with Hawk & Animal or he could work with Brad Armstrong.
The most recent wrestler with that size and natural ability is Randy Orton.
You had to pay attention to Barry when he wrestled to see what the fuss was he was an all time great.
Dirty Rhodes again