I splashed my 42' steel sailer year 2000. Prior to painting the hull, it was blasted to SA 2.5 in- and outside. Then the hull was sprayed with insulating and fireproof foam til 50 cm below the waterline. Weight of the steel hull is about 5 metric tons. Keel weight about 5 tons. Depl. fully loaded 16,5 t. Now the boat has bee in the water for 23 years, with two weeks on the hard every second year. Paint on top and hull sides have been renewed three times. No touch up, no washing, no polishing. Under water paint renewed two years ago. Absolutely no rust below waterline, no condensation inside, no rust anywhere, not a gram. In total, after 23 years, maintenance is a fraction of boats built from any other material, will even compete with aluminium. And Sv Hulda goes through 5 cm (2 inches) of fresh ice like a hot knife in butter. BR Sv Hulda Mc materials and corrosion engineer.
Thanks for the comment! What an awesome account of good practice! It’s just what people need to see too. Steel is fantastic when we’ll prepared and looked after. Mc materials and corrosion engineer.. This is super interesting, I would love to have a chat with you about your material/product recommendations for different materials!
And you need to realize the properties of the building material from the very start. Just to avoid 'rust traps'., condensation a so forth. This spring I hit an uncharted rock. Thought the rig should go over the side. When Hulda was up on the hard this July, it was just some paint transfered from my keel and onto the rock. Not a scrath, not a dent, nothing. A standard glass fiber production boat would probably be on the brinck of being scraped.
Sure, as a bit builder I’m aware of most of the traps involved in building. As for the material science.. I always think it would be nice to expand mr knowledge 👍
@@SailHub It's all a compromise. I chose mild steel (St 37 variant). Main welding with Innershield. High high load areas, Stick weld (Baso). Philosophy: The hull should survive hard impact with no cracking in metall or HAZ. Even in sub zero temperatures. Though, bow in 12,5 mm St 56, with an 'Ice Knife' in front. Others will of course make other choices. And we can live comfortably inside in 22 deg C, heated with an Eberspächer 4 kW diesel heater with 10 deg below freezing on the outside. And RF 50 %, or lower.
If I ever get able to buy a boat/yacht, it will be a steel hulled boat because you never hear about a killer whale/Orca, ramming into a yacht with a steel hull and sinking it.
So… we took our Steel Callisto 385 to the canaries in September and had a couple of Orca attacks. The Callisto has a full keel with a keel hung rudder… the Orca still had a go, so the theory that they only attack spade rudders is out the window! The big deal was that even though the Orca grabbed the rudder and gave it a good shake back and forwards (not just a shove)and had a couple of goes, we had no damage, not a scratch… I checked afterwards, all they did was clean the rudder a bit where they tried to take a bite. The Orca got bored pretty quickly when the didn’t get nice crunchy entertainment, they went off and took a nearby boats rudder off, despite them using flashbangs and various other deterents. Maybe a resurgence in steel blue water cruisers is on the cards!
Defo a resurgence on the horizon!! As for the orca’s I saw quite a lot of damage when we were close to the Gibraltar straits for a year… It appears they will go for anything. Mono’s, cat’s, and of any rudder variant! No one is safe… Steel has always been the best off, in fact I have seen no life threatening damage on a steel boat, though I have seen a steel rudder bent. Mental.
OK, as an Engineer, you cannot beat steel for durability. if you looking at purchasing one id very much recommend buying one based on a survey. Buy a steel thickness measuring tool as it will tell you the thickness of the material then you can make an informed decision if it has rust in the bowels or not very easily! if it shows it has then you will need to strip the inside to get at the corrosion properly and that takes time but due diligence before you buy is money well spent going forward. Hope this helps😅
It depends on what you want to do with your boat. Going through the bering sea during the winter in a grp hull will result in you sinking. It's not if, it's when. You go into the arctic in grp your boat will shatter. In aluminium? Your hull will twist and deform.
@@SailHub well, because they built their boat over 30 years ago and keeping her in excellent shape! I think Jules and Suzie have forgotten more about steel boats than any of us know :-) I learned a lot from them that isnt in the books. So, I thought you might like to talk to some elders in your same sky!
The Dutch are steel yachtbuilders by nature. If you know how to handle steel and also the maintainence of it; you could hardly find a more costeffective/durable material. Rustprevention is not that difficult, but you should start the right way.
I was looking at Bruce Roberts ms65 with some mods increase the beam 2m /6ft steel hull double sail area and custom steel mast the mast can be half the diameter of aluminum because steel is 4x stronger and have it Hot dip calvin ice coated .
Wow! That sounds fun! Your sure about weight aloft? Seems pretty like quite a compromise to me but that’s just my two cents. Is that increase the beam by 2m? Crazy talk! I love it 👍
@user-gg6om8vp4f sweet, your lucky! We’re looking at a carbon mast at the moment and the saving over aluminium is not huge but the effect in the righting moment is, get those guys to calculate that too as I would be surprised if it makes sense. Mind you, if it works for you, go for it. I would be really interested to see how you get on!
@SailHub I would be doing a ketch setup so that can help to start. Carbon nice, my only concern is ultraviolet degradation is an issue Most do not look at that.
😂🤦♂️ sometimes best to ignore the other options… To be fair, those guys are pretty handy with a piece of steel. Fabricating with aluminium is very different and I imagine they decided to stick with what they are specialist in and do it well!
We just covered the main builds that I have experience with. Stainless I’ve welded quite a bit but I can’t see it being great for a hull. Is generally not very good when constantly submerged. I’m ware there are boats out there but it doesn’t make sense to me. Like I said earlier though; I’m not qualified enough to talk about them so I will leave it to someone else… or, if you really want to know I will hunt someone down and interview them 👍
Epoxy is becoming more popular, however it’s expensive due to the fact the hull needs to be blasted before application for a good bond. As for fibreglass, not sure - as a boatbuilder I wouldn’t recommend it, similar to sheathing wooden boats, it’s all good until it’s not. Then the whole boat can become saturated, making repairs harder and also meaning it’s still wet when on the hard. For me, the real beauty of steel is how easy it is to fix, keep it simple, the repair work is easier and it will look after your for years.
@silentlamb7043 cool, I think it’s a good option. Check out cementous coatings - age old tech getting re launched, apparently a game changer (according to nasa and bowing) someone like eoncoat. Not really been used in the marine industry as yet but I’m sure it will come soon. 👍
Well if you want the real technical answer. Steel doesn't make much sense for small pleasure boats, because marine steel is no stronger than marine aluminium, but 3 times heavier. It's more expensive but that price difference will be negligible for a small boat that might only use 5-10t of it. Fabrication of the boat and sails/rigging/engines/gadgets/interiors dwarfs the cost of raw materials. However on a massive commercial ship strength to weight is less important and raw material costs are more significant. In addition steel has an infinite fatigue life - it will degrade in strength to a point, but no further, whereas aluminium and glass fibres will get weaker and weaker and weaker forever with every wave cycle - of course they'll still last a very long time, but commercial steel hulls working day after day after day can in theory last forever - with the right care.
@@SailHub I think going forward they'll be less common, but they could still work if you aren't concerned about performance and just want a big old chunky displacement hull.
@N330AA oh yeah! They are fab for higher latitudes. I’ve just got into port this moring with a friend who built a boat from a Koopmans steel hull and just finished an Atlantic circuit finishing via Canada, Iceland and Greenland this morning! A pure joy to sail into where he started in Ireland with him, the boat is an absolute trooper and loves weather! m.ua-cam.com/users/SailingYachtZora
That’s a fair point! Mind you, I was amazed to see some steel work that was damaged by those whales! It’s amazing how powerful they are! I wouldn’t the uk they would destroy a steel rudder but I would suggest they could bend it pretty easily!
I have callisto 385, all steel. We were attacked twice by orcas. They don't like steel rudders, they try... it doesn't crunch... they leave. No problem.
@oldowl33 I wish I knew where you were going or coming from with this… I mean, did you sink the ship? What happened? Have you sailed in ice much? What context are you speaking in here? I’d love to answer positively but it’s hard to know what the problem is. Cheers, Chris
@@SailHub The ice crushed her with a Gail from the north, no doubt of that, 70°58'00"N 130°03'26"W was the location, it was 14 years ago. Another one for the locker.
The great thing about steel is that it really one has one failure mode - which usually makes itself obvious to the observant. In some ways rust is your friend because it's so easy to fix if you get onto it early. And metal boat are a lot more rigid and with proper attention to detail they will not leak. The bilges should be dust dry and clean. The best tip I know is to try and keep as much of the wiring and plumbing out of the bilge as possible so that it is easy to clean out with detergent and fresh water hosing once a year or so. Keep the the bilge clean, the paint will remain solid and it will not rust. Never let wet timber sit against the steel. It will destroy the paint. Pay attention to dissimilar metals, particularly welds to 316 components. These days you can probably use other synthentic materials instead. Do these three things and 90% of the root causes of rust on a steel boat will be sorted - the other 10% is just routine maintenance of chips and no more onerous than any other material to maintain,
I worked in offshore oil & gas for 10 years in the commercial diving industry, IMCA Life Support Supervisor & Diver Medic. I spent most of my time on vessels kitted out for saturation diving. These are large offshore construction vessels made out of steel. Whenever I was working my way up through the ranks putting my time in there was always something to wire wheel, enrust, then paint. ALWAYS. Learn how to properly weld and finish off the work areas and you'll be golden. I only say learn to weld because you don't want to start paying a welder every time you need something done.
The 316 is just fine if you use a dissimilar welding electrode designed to join mild steel to stainless. a 309 SS wire is the correct one if my elderly memory serves me correct.
@@Thesilverrat Exactly correct. The only other detail I'd mention is to paint the weld if at all possible and it should last indefinitely. I've a number of 316 deck items welded to my steel hull just like you describe and they're still perfect 30yrs later.
@philipwilkie3239 great to hear this! Steel can easily last a lifetime, just so it right like you guys! We’ve seen some superb examples recently, like our friends on Belafonte (Instagram), these guys are showing the world how well steel can last when it’s done properly. Steel is most definitely real!
I have had my steel boat for 23 years. The biggest thing with steel boats is to have the inside sprayed with foam with fire retardant in it. The interior of the boat should be sprayed with a zinc coating before the spray foam as well. Other than light surface on the exterior I have no internal rust issues however when in salt water you need to take care of it as it happens. There are a lot of good epoxy paints and you need multiple coatings to prevent exterior damage. I have just completed a renovation of my folks 39 and I will easily get another 20 years of life out of her.
Hey!! Great to hear this, steel is an awesome material and it’s so good for people to hear positive comments like this! There is definitely a resurgence with metal boats right now and steel is certainly an option that interests us right now! Cheers for sharing your experience and knowledge 👍
I am an industrial painter red seal ticketed. Journeyman and I can tell you this. I've painted plenty of ships and prep. Is the most important thing? Then multiple layers of epoxy primer in all proper coatings. Proper quality control during the whole entire process. And your boat will outlast you
As part of sea rescue actuvities on the African coast we had to assist a yacht that hit the rocks. What we found was a a thousand little pieces all.over the rocks. No survivors. Steel boats when hitting th3 rocks are in tact. Not even mostly but always.
Steel is better. Fiberglass and plastic resins using forever chemicals and inevitably breaking down and apart in waters is only adding to our issues, it’s actually making fish sicker too which we then eat.. sure it may be a cheaper and lighter weight option… but at what cost? Steel can easily last 50 years. And rust isn’t a huge deal with proper maintenance, it will still be cheaper to maintain in the long run and easily outlasts fiberglass.
By that I presume you are referring to marine contamination? I would suggest there’s certainly a pollution element from paint but not a spot on what a grp boat causes. Generally because, steel boats are very good when painted properly first time and not often at all do you need to take a great deal off, where as grp boats will at some point in their life need the gel taking off and that’s horrendous. Repairs are a lot worse too. Still, there’s no perfect boat. On UA-cam we put out our findings as boatbuilders, trying to just speak the facts that we have experience with.
thank you for this series - im litterally weighing between a GRP or steel boat at the moment. as much as I hate maintenance - the urge to beach the boat, sail high north, hang in areas without marinas, means - steel might kinda outweigh GRP in having a more "utility" boat. I feel the cost / skill required to build a steel boat - tend to result in GRP boats being a bit fancier builds thats more designer booats.. steel boat interiors seems decidedly "plainer"
A hard chine being a flat surface to the water actually prevents leeway much like a leeboard. I have a Bruce Roberts 38' cutter and being Steel gives me a warm fuzzy feeling + she can sail with the best In her class. Steel is Real baby!
Steel is a labour of love and not for us. However.. That could be changing - check out EonCoat, its age old tech that has been reborn. According to nasa and bowing this stuff is amazing!
what about if one generously applies a few coats of primer and added polyurea on top of that, inside and out, would that not be a massive game changer ?
Hey, yeah.. for our boat materials series we joined up with a UA-camr for each episode who are actually doing it at the present moment - so you can actually follow it and speak with these guys! You can find their channel link in the description! Say hi from us! 🤙⛵️💨
Hi! By that I presume you mean a stainless hull? It can work and I have seen an awesome newly built adventure cruiser made out of it but.. it doesn’t seem to be selling, after years. Personally I don’t really understand it. As a material, stainless is brittle and it needs oxygen to maintain its corrosion free properties. I guess the main problem will if the hull becomes compromised by crevice corrosion through lack of oxygen. When it happens crevice corrosion is really not easy to see until it’s potentially too late. There are some stainless steel variants I presume 316L that will be better. There are also stronger alloys such as 318 but they need heat treated to gain their strength which won’t be easy on a hull. Sadly, I know about a lot of steels and have welded many stainless grades but when it comes to building a hull, it’s not something I have done and I am not able to say much more other than give my honest opinion. - I see opportunity for more trouble than good.
No mention of Corten steel. A lot of Dutch boats use this, they are the masters. No real big rust problems. I looked at one, even had bare steel inside!
I also wondered that Corten or shipyard steel wasn't mentioned. As any steel build things the kind of construction is very important. And at least the first treatment of the inside of the hull. My boat was sandblasted inside when the hull was finished and then shielded with 4 coats of 2k epoxy primer. Never had problems with corrosion inside though I had some saltwater already inside. Corten steel is corroding 0.1mm/year in saltwater, time enough for mainrence. And the notched impact strength of steel is much higher than aluminum at the same thickness of material. I hitted the ground several times, up to 5kn speed, never a problem. Ask a owner of a modern plastic boat about the damage, many of this stories here on YT. And galvanic corrosion isn't a real problem if there are zinc anodes. In comparsion to aluminium I never heard that a steel hull became a Emmentaler cheese, but aluminium does if not perfect prevented. Apologize my poor english!
Doesn't matter what a boat is built from, it seems most owners can't afford or don't want to maintain them. Have a look at the majority of boats for sale, poorly maintained the lot of them.
Dude the number of boats I have looked at that are covered inside in rubbish and junk is insane, they can't even be bothered to clean and wash the boat for sale then want 10 times what it is worth! @@SailHub
Might be easy to get steel etc to do hull repairs, but what you forgot to mention is there are alot of boat yards that dont allow hot work, ie grinding and welding steel.
@timothyblazer1749 all well and good if you have a large fleet of small steel fishing boats to support big yards dedicated to them but not everywhere has that. We don't where I am. Steel fishing boats are in the same position as everyone else.
Wow, what a boat! Not really my ideal boat but it’s an awesome machine! Just look at it! I bet you. I bet you could go anywhere in that… if you have the time, money and your happy belting 35 ton of yacht around! What a machine!
@@SailHub True, you just cannot stop ever and have a break. It's like the Eiffel Tower paintjob: you start at the bottom and once you've finisshed the top you start again at the bottom.
Considering the topic at hand does anyone have any experience with 90-10 copper nickel as a boat building material? ( yes , yes I know it's very, very expensive)
Now there’s a question. Such a rare build! I believe Bruce Roberts designed some. 90-10, possibly a close to perfect material? Pretty much no growth below the waterline, heavy but sting so the plate is quite thin. I believe you can use a 70-30 for extra strength too. Possibly the only downsides are the cost. There is galvanic corrosion too but it does appear minimal too. Are you thinking of building one?
@@SailHub Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping the Metal Boat Society will be a good resource. I would be open to any and all suggestions at this point. Thanks,...fair winds!
The weight to price ratio of steel versus aluminium is positive for aluminium (weight difference 5x)with the added positive effect that aluminium is lighter. Steel might be better if build correctly in iceberg filled waters but proper aluminium yachts can be good also there. (aluminium can be welded MIG TIG also by the way) Biggest advantage offcourse in the cost departement is that aluminium does not need paint...So in the long run aluminium gets to be even cheaper versus steel.
It’s a romantic idea however, the tig and mid welding process for aluminium takes longer due to the natural heat dissipation. Basically we need to preheat thick alloys and leave then to cool again naturally, in general it means that despite the material costs an Aluminium boat takes more time to fabricate and therefore will always cost more than a steel boat. Painting though, yeah it’s a win for the ally here! Another thing to bear in mind though is that a well blasted and sprayed steel boat will last an awfully long time before it needs a full repaint again so it’s not really a cost consideration for most metal boat owners. Still, your right that it could make the difference for some people.
@nispuck3241 yup, crevice corrosion of stainless is a real issue! Not sure it’s the same for an anchor chain though as it’s rarely submerged for long enough for it to be starved of oxygen. If it were a stainless chain on a permanent mooring though, that’s a different thing - a big no no!
Hard to understand why all steel boats don’t use Corten steel. I looked at one , built in Holland where they know their steel boatbuilding, about 15 years old, it was even unpainted in some internal areas, no rust! It does, similar to aluminium get a protective coating of oxide. Another advantage that it is stiffer than mild steel, so holds shape with thinner plate.
@markthomasson5077 it’s amazing stuff right. To be honest I’ve no idea either. I presume cost but then there’s the future maintenance of the other option to add too… In the other hand, if you look after any steel, it will last a long give for sure. Maybe that’s the thought? No idea really 🤷♂️
You can go stainless but he main issue you will have is that stainless needs oxygen to provide its full corrosion resistance properties. Unfortunately there’s not much of that under the water. So it still works, just not as well. It’s also not as strong.
@@SailHub there are alloys of stainless steel that are marine grade or better which should be nearly corrosion resistant. then again it depends on what steel they used for the boat
@curio78 as a marine fabricator I would suggest that 316L is the best alloy for marine use and my earlier comment still rings true. There are other options but you still need the O2 to get the best potential out of it. Another thing to note is that when it does corrode it’s crevice corrosion. Which is difficult to spot at the best of times let alone under a skin of antifowl.
@@SailHub I belive 316 has high corrosion resistantance but will still corrode. Super Duplex Stainless Steel should be the best. I am a bit unclear about what you mean by o2 requirement for corrosion resistantance. o2 is what is needed for corrosion. the whole exercise in corossion prevention is to prevent o2 from getting in contact is it not? chloride in the seawater simply accelerates this o2 contact corrosion by basically clearing the old corrosion allowing fresh steel to come in contact with o2.
@@curio78 the oxygen creates an oxide layer. It is that that makes it resistant to corrosion. I’ve see people waxing their stanchions and the likes to ‘protect’ them for the winter, the results are quite the opposite. Super duplex is fab but only required for high strength and of course you would need to heat treat the entire boat after the welding was complete. 316L has a lower carbon content and would be the chosen material by most. It’s an interesting subject but I would personally stay away from it just because of the crevice corrosion. It just won’t be seen under the waterline due to paint. This of course could be a big problem in years to come. There was a van de stadt built from stainless about ten/fifteen years back, I believe it’s still not sold.. or at least last year it was still for sale, still unlanunched and new, there’s a reason that sale is painfully long! Either way, if you want to build a stainless boat you go for it chap, I’m knot going to complain, where there’s a will there’s a way and I take my hat off to anybody who’s going to find that way!
@@SailHub Strongest construction, lowest overall maintenance, easiest repair [plug with Epoxy], heavy weight hull - great underway and relatively easy to do as a home build. A properly constructed hull will last decades, there are hulls in the pacific left over from WWII that are still serviceable and they have sat unserived probably since WWII! No other boat construction material will last that long.
I know about them for sure. Just before I give my thoughts on them… I just want to point out the video is about a particular material as opposed adventure boats. So I’m not so sure that ferro cement builds are the only way to go for adventure cruising but they have their love and the material is not a bad choice for adventure cruising, although they are personally not for me. Personally I think they are very good, the main limitation being weight (like steel) which… although being often overlooked by adventurers does mean slower passage times and longer weather windows.. lighter adventurers tend to get places quicker and easier but of course, weight is good when the going gets bouncy (so long as the weight is in the right place of course) There is of course the strength question, they are very strong, very strong but.. cracking on impact is a potential, and of course we can’t forget the internal steel structure. How do you definitely know what’s going on in there? The other thing to note is hull shape, it’s relatively limited due to the nature of the material needing to dissipate energy over a large area. Modern lines are not likely to be common part and fin keeled boats are not likely to take a grounding too well. Swing keels will be good and of course relatively common for the material. I’m not saying they are bad, in fact I would suggest a well built and well designed one will actually be exceptional! However, it’s a sad fact that’s there a lot more boats that do not fit into the well built category than do. My thoughts are that’s if your building a new one your into a winner, however I must ask how it is actually better than steel?
Sure, rolled steel is a good option although certainly not as common hence I generally talked about the more commonly used hard chine. Me personally, I’m totally for metallic boats and steel is certainly superior to a traditional wood or fibreglass boat for the cruiser. Electrolysis will be covered under aluminium, we should have covered it for steel too. - lessons learned every week here👍
We have a callisto 385, designed by Bill Dixon before he did Moody Yachts. All rolled hot aluminium sprayed steel, you can't tell she is steel until you knock on the side (or know what to look for) it's another level of solid cruising yacht. No creaks in big waves, no worries about hitting anything and with modern paints, no rust.
@@SailHub Galvanic corrosion is similar for all boats. Any two metals with different galvanic potential in contact with seawater forms a battery. Zinc is low potential so is used to protect all boats: plastic, aluminum, steel, wood, cement, etc.
I had a steel sail boat for 17 years and it was the best vessal i,ve ever owed at 5r ft.
Fantastic sounds like she’ll have many a great memories for you! Thanks for letting us know 🤟🏼
I splashed my 42' steel sailer year 2000. Prior to painting the hull, it was blasted to SA 2.5 in- and outside. Then the hull was sprayed with insulating and fireproof foam til 50 cm below the waterline. Weight of the steel hull is about 5 metric tons. Keel weight about 5 tons. Depl. fully loaded 16,5 t. Now the boat has bee in the water for 23 years, with two weeks on the hard every second year. Paint on top and hull sides have been renewed three times. No touch up, no washing, no polishing. Under water paint renewed two years ago. Absolutely no rust below waterline, no condensation inside, no rust anywhere, not a gram. In total, after 23 years, maintenance is a fraction of boats built from any other material, will even compete with aluminium. And Sv Hulda goes through 5 cm (2 inches) of fresh ice like a hot knife in butter.
BR
Sv Hulda
Mc materials and corrosion engineer.
Thanks for the comment!
What an awesome account of good practice! It’s just what people need to see too. Steel is fantastic when we’ll prepared and looked after.
Mc materials and corrosion engineer.. This is super interesting, I would love to have a chat with you about your material/product recommendations for different materials!
@@SailHub
And you need to realize the properties of the building material from the very start. Just to avoid 'rust traps'., condensation a so forth.
This spring I hit an uncharted rock. Thought the rig should go over the side. When Hulda was up on the hard this July, it was just some paint transfered from my keel and onto the rock. Not a scrath, not a dent, nothing. A standard glass fiber production boat would probably be on the brinck of being scraped.
Sure, as a bit builder I’m aware of most of the traps involved in building. As for the material science.. I always think it would be nice to expand mr knowledge 👍
@@SailHub It's all a compromise. I chose mild steel (St 37 variant). Main welding with Innershield. High high load areas, Stick weld (Baso). Philosophy: The hull should survive hard impact with no cracking in metall or HAZ. Even in sub zero temperatures. Though, bow in 12,5 mm St 56, with an 'Ice Knife' in front. Others will of course make other choices. And we can live comfortably inside in 22 deg C, heated with an Eberspächer 4 kW diesel heater with 10 deg below freezing on the outside. And RF 50 %, or lower.
If I ever get able to buy a boat/yacht, it will be a steel hulled boat because you never hear about a killer whale/Orca, ramming into a yacht with a steel hull and sinking it.
Sounds like a plan! I hope you manage to get your dream boat too! 👍
So… we took our Steel Callisto 385 to the canaries in September and had a couple of Orca attacks. The Callisto has a full keel with a keel hung rudder… the Orca still had a go, so the theory that they only attack spade rudders is out the window!
The big deal was that even though the Orca grabbed the rudder and gave it a good shake back and forwards (not just a shove)and had a couple of goes, we had no damage, not a scratch… I checked afterwards, all they did was clean the rudder a bit where they tried to take a bite.
The Orca got bored pretty quickly when the didn’t get nice crunchy entertainment, they went off and took a nearby boats rudder off, despite them using flashbangs and various other deterents.
Maybe a resurgence in steel blue water cruisers is on the cards!
Defo a resurgence on the horizon!!
As for the orca’s I saw quite a lot of damage when we were close to the Gibraltar straits for a year… It appears they will go for anything. Mono’s, cat’s, and of any rudder variant! No one is safe… Steel has always been the best off, in fact I have seen no life threatening damage on a steel boat, though I have seen a steel rudder bent. Mental.
@@SailingAquamarine that or a orca hunting season , maybe thinning the heard a lil would help them learn not to go near boats...
Noooo, you didn’t just say that😮🥺
OK, as an Engineer, you cannot beat steel for durability. if you looking at purchasing one id very much recommend buying one based on a survey. Buy a steel thickness measuring tool as it will tell you the thickness of the material then you can make an informed decision if it has rust in the bowels or not very easily! if it shows it has then you will need to strip the inside to get at the corrosion properly and that takes time but due diligence before you buy is money well spent going forward. Hope this helps😅
Great device especially with the ultrasound
It depends on what you want to do with your boat. Going through the bering sea during the winter in a grp hull will result in you sinking. It's not if, it's when. You go into the arctic in grp your boat will shatter. In aluminium? Your hull will twist and deform.
Much the same as the crew members on board then! No one comes back from there the same as they left!! 😃😬
Look up Emerald Steel, a self built steel yacht built a long time ago, and still going strong.
Oh whys that? We’re complete beloved in steel my friend 👍
@@SailHub well, because they built their boat over 30 years ago and keeping her in excellent shape! I think Jules and Suzie have forgotten more about steel boats than any of us know :-)
I learned a lot from them that isnt in the books. So, I thought you might like to talk to some elders in your same sky!
@timothyblazer1749 cheers matey, I appreciate that. 👍
Definitely, yes.
Agreed! 👍
The Dutch are steel yachtbuilders by nature. If you know how to handle steel and also the maintainence of it; you could hardly find a more costeffective/durable material. Rustprevention is not that difficult, but you should start the right way.
Agreed 👍
I was looking at Bruce Roberts ms65 with some mods increase the beam 2m /6ft steel hull double sail area and custom steel mast the mast can be half the diameter of aluminum because steel is 4x stronger and have it Hot dip calvin ice coated .
Wow! That sounds fun!
Your sure about weight aloft? Seems pretty like quite a compromise to me but that’s just my two cents.
Is that increase the beam by 2m? Crazy talk! I love it 👍
@SailHub the mast would not be as heavy as you think I work in nuclear plant and let's just say Access to some rocket scientist engineers
@user-gg6om8vp4f sweet, your lucky!
We’re looking at a carbon mast at the moment and the saving over aluminium is not huge but the effect in the righting moment is, get those guys to calculate that too as I would be surprised if it makes sense. Mind you, if it works for you, go for it. I would be really interested to see how you get on!
@SailHub I would be doing a ketch setup so that can help to start.
Carbon nice, my only concern is ultraviolet degradation is an issue
Most do not look at that.
@user-gg6om8vp4f Nice! 👍
Yeah, not sure how we are painting it yet. UV is a bugger mind!
Put a sacrificial anode of zinc to help
Great advice, mind you be sure to get use the correct material based on your environment. Brackish or fresh water will require a different material 👍
@@SailHub definitely agree
Last thing I would want is a wood boat add plastic and wood together run, run, run!
😂 I agree! On a positive though, they are easy to fix.
Re: all titanium sailing yacht
See the You Tube video about the Japanese 40’ all titanium sailing yacht.😊
I’m not sure I found the right one but all the same. That’s bonkers! I imagine they must have money to burn!!
Looks like Taryn & Logan have never heard of aluminium. They act like there is only steel vs fiber glass...
😂🤦♂️ sometimes best to ignore the other options… To be fair, those guys are pretty handy with a piece of steel.
Fabricating with aluminium is very different and I imagine they decided to stick with what they are specialist in and do it well!
you did not cover stainless steel boats - why?
We just covered the main builds that I have experience with. Stainless I’ve welded quite a bit but I can’t see it being great for a hull. Is generally not very good when constantly submerged.
I’m ware there are boats out there but it doesn’t make sense to me. Like I said earlier though; I’m not qualified enough to talk about them so I will leave it to someone else… or, if you really want to know I will hunt someone down and interview them 👍
Why dont they epoxy it after, or one coat fibre glass over steel 🤔
Epoxy is becoming more popular, however it’s expensive due to the fact the hull needs to be blasted before application for a good bond. As for fibreglass, not sure - as a boatbuilder I wouldn’t recommend it, similar to sheathing wooden boats, it’s all good until it’s not. Then the whole boat can become saturated, making repairs harder and also meaning it’s still wet when on the hard.
For me, the real beauty of steel is how easy it is to fix, keep it simple, the repair work is easier and it will look after your for years.
@@SailHub thanks for your reply 🧡, I am looking at steel as the superior choice 🙌
@silentlamb7043 cool, I think it’s a good option. Check out cementous coatings - age old tech getting re launched, apparently a game changer (according to nasa and bowing) someone like eoncoat. Not really been used in the marine industry as yet but I’m sure it will come soon. 👍
Well if you want the real technical answer. Steel doesn't make much sense for small pleasure boats, because marine steel is no stronger than marine aluminium, but 3 times heavier. It's more expensive but that price difference will be negligible for a small boat that might only use 5-10t of it. Fabrication of the boat and sails/rigging/engines/gadgets/interiors dwarfs the cost of raw materials.
However on a massive commercial ship strength to weight is less important and raw material costs are more significant. In addition steel has an infinite fatigue life - it will degrade in strength to a point, but no further, whereas aluminium and glass fibres will get weaker and weaker and weaker forever with every wave cycle - of course they'll still last a very long time, but commercial steel hulls working day after day after day can in theory last forever - with the right care.
Hey, thanks for the real answer!
Mind you, I still think there is a place for it in small craft building. 👍
@@SailHub I think going forward they'll be less common, but they could still work if you aren't concerned about performance and just want a big old chunky displacement hull.
@N330AA oh yeah! They are fab for higher latitudes. I’ve just got into port this moring with a friend who built a boat from a Koopmans steel hull and just finished an Atlantic circuit finishing via Canada, Iceland and Greenland this morning! A pure joy to sail into where he started in Ireland with him, the boat is an absolute trooper and loves weather! m.ua-cam.com/users/SailingYachtZora
@@SailHub Well i'd love to do the northwest passage myself.
@N330AA ohhh yeahhh! I would live that! One day!!!
You won’t have any killer whales tearing off your rudder or sinking a steel boat 😊
That’s a fair point! Mind you, I was amazed to see some steel work that was damaged by those whales! It’s amazing how powerful they are! I wouldn’t the uk they would destroy a steel rudder but I would suggest they could bend it pretty easily!
@@SailHub Agreed 😊
I have callisto 385, all steel. We were attacked twice by orcas. They don't like steel rudders, they try... it doesn't crunch... they leave. No problem.
You’ve never sailed through heavy ice and it shows.
I think you may find your wrong there, I did it in a wooden boat actually and it was terrifying.
@@SailHub Tell that to the boat which now rests at a depth of around 6700 feet down on the bottom.
@oldowl33 I wish I knew where you were going or coming from with this… I mean, did you sink the ship? What happened? Have you sailed in ice much? What context are you speaking in here? I’d love to answer positively but it’s hard to know what the problem is.
Cheers,
Chris
@@SailHub The ice crushed her with a Gail from the north, no doubt of that, 70°58'00"N 130°03'26"W was the location, it was 14 years ago. Another one for the locker.
Rescue out of Tuktoyaktuk.
The great thing about steel is that it really one has one failure mode - which usually makes itself obvious to the observant. In some ways rust is your friend because it's so easy to fix if you get onto it early. And metal boat are a lot more rigid and with proper attention to detail they will not leak. The bilges should be dust dry and clean.
The best tip I know is to try and keep as much of the wiring and plumbing out of the bilge as possible so that it is easy to clean out with detergent and fresh water hosing once a year or so. Keep the the bilge clean, the paint will remain solid and it will not rust.
Never let wet timber sit against the steel. It will destroy the paint.
Pay attention to dissimilar metals, particularly welds to 316 components. These days you can probably use other synthentic materials instead.
Do these three things and 90% of the root causes of rust on a steel boat will be sorted - the other 10% is just routine maintenance of chips and no more onerous than any other material to maintain,
Brilliant post! 👍
I worked in offshore oil & gas for 10 years in the commercial diving industry, IMCA Life Support Supervisor & Diver Medic. I spent most of my time on vessels kitted out for saturation diving. These are large offshore construction vessels made out of steel. Whenever I was working my way up through the ranks putting my time in there was always something to wire wheel, enrust, then paint. ALWAYS. Learn how to properly weld and finish off the work areas and you'll be golden. I only say learn to weld because you don't want to start paying a welder every time you need something done.
The 316 is just fine if you use a dissimilar welding electrode designed to join mild steel to stainless. a 309 SS wire is the correct one if my elderly memory serves me correct.
@@Thesilverrat Exactly correct. The only other detail I'd mention is to paint the weld if at all possible and it should last indefinitely. I've a number of 316 deck items welded to my steel hull just like you describe and they're still perfect 30yrs later.
@philipwilkie3239 great to hear this! Steel can easily last a lifetime, just so it right like you guys! We’ve seen some superb examples recently, like our friends on Belafonte (Instagram), these guys are showing the world how well steel can last when it’s done properly. Steel is most definitely real!
I have had my steel boat for 23 years. The biggest thing with steel boats is to have the inside sprayed with foam with fire retardant in it. The interior of the boat should be sprayed with a zinc coating before the spray foam as well. Other than light surface on the exterior I have no internal rust issues however when in salt water you need to take care of it as it happens. There are a lot of good epoxy paints and you need multiple coatings to prevent exterior damage. I have just completed a renovation of my folks 39 and I will easily get another 20 years of life out of her.
Hey!! Great to hear this, steel is an awesome material and it’s so good for people to hear positive comments like this! There is definitely a resurgence with metal boats right now and steel is certainly an option that interests us right now!
Cheers for sharing your experience and knowledge 👍
I am an industrial painter red seal ticketed. Journeyman and I can tell you this. I've painted plenty of ships and prep. Is the most important thing? Then multiple layers of epoxy primer in all proper coatings.
Proper quality control during the whole entire process.
And your boat will outlast you
Fantastic advice! Thanks for sharing.👍
As part of sea rescue actuvities on the African coast we had to assist a yacht that hit the rocks. What we found was a a thousand little pieces all.over the rocks. No survivors. Steel boats when hitting th3 rocks are in tact. Not even mostly but always.
Yup, steel is REAL! It’s a superb material for sailing. The hard you go the more confident you are in it!
Steel is better. Fiberglass and plastic resins using forever chemicals and inevitably breaking down and apart in waters is only adding to our issues, it’s actually making fish sicker too which we then eat.. sure it may be a cheaper and lighter weight option… but at what cost? Steel can easily last 50 years. And rust isn’t a huge deal with proper maintenance, it will still be cheaper to maintain in the long run and easily outlasts fiberglass.
Couldn’t agree more ! 👍🏼💯⛵️
Whatabout the chemicals used in the paint preserving the steel? I'm not sure it's as simplistic as you make out
By that I presume you are referring to marine contamination? I would suggest there’s certainly a pollution element from paint but not a spot on what a grp boat causes.
Generally because, steel boats are very good when painted properly first time and not often at all do you need to take a great deal off, where as grp boats will at some point in their life need the gel taking off and that’s horrendous. Repairs are a lot worse too.
Still, there’s no perfect boat. On UA-cam we put out our findings as boatbuilders, trying to just speak the facts that we have experience with.
thank you for this series - im litterally weighing between a GRP or steel boat at the moment. as much as I hate maintenance - the urge to beach the boat, sail high north, hang in areas without marinas, means - steel might kinda outweigh GRP in having a more "utility" boat.
I feel the cost / skill required to build a steel boat - tend to result in GRP boats being a bit fancier builds thats more designer booats.. steel boat interiors seems decidedly "plainer"
So pleased to have helped! Mind you… There’s plenty of steel or aluminium boats with super fancy interiors out there too! 👍
A hard chine being a flat surface to the water actually prevents leeway much like a leeboard. I have a Bruce Roberts 38' cutter and being Steel gives me a warm fuzzy feeling + she can sail with the best In her class. Steel is Real baby!
Your right! When in the right places hard chines are super for increased performance! Gotta love a BR mind! 👍🏼
And 38 is the perfect size👍
I was just thinking that same thing. Each chine can act as a point of stability in-motion.
@craigparse1439 too right, it can do exactly that, although when adding more chines we need to consider their effects on drag and skin friction too.
I'd never buy a steel boat, it's a constant, never ending fight with rust/corrosion/electrolysis. It's heavy and cold
Steel is a labour of love and not for us. However.. That could be changing - check out EonCoat, its age old tech that has been reborn. According to nasa and bowing this stuff is amazing!
what about if one generously applies a few coats of primer and added polyurea on top of that, inside and out, would that not be a massive game changer ?
It’s quite a common application to be honest, it works a treat if you can sandblast beforehand, without the blasting it’s not so effective though.
I would like to hear more from Logan i see he is the actual peron working on th3 boat. Im sure its his project too. Whats going on guys?
Hey, yeah.. for our boat materials series we joined up with a UA-camr for each episode who are actually doing it at the present moment - so you can actually follow it and speak with these guys! You can find their channel link in the description! Say hi from us! 🤙⛵️💨
Looking a steel hull boat 50 to 70 ft to rescue with a ceramic coating for a before and after .
They would be cool to see! 👍⛵️
I have owned one steel yacht and one grp yacht. My next yacht will be steel.
Nice! Thanks for sharing too 👍
What about stainless crunching the numbers
Hi! By that I presume you mean a stainless hull?
It can work and I have seen an awesome newly built adventure cruiser made out of it but.. it doesn’t seem to be selling, after years.
Personally I don’t really understand it. As a material, stainless is brittle and it needs oxygen to maintain its corrosion free properties.
I guess the main problem will if the hull becomes compromised by crevice corrosion through lack of oxygen. When it happens crevice corrosion is really not easy to see until it’s potentially too late.
There are some stainless steel variants I presume 316L that will be better. There are also stronger alloys such as 318 but they need heat treated to gain their strength which won’t be easy on a hull. Sadly, I know about a lot of steels and have welded many stainless grades but when it comes to building a hull, it’s not something I have done and I am not able to say much more other than give my honest opinion. - I see opportunity for more trouble than good.
Steel, my choice for a bluewater boat.
Yeah! That makes sense! 👍
No mention of Corten steel. A lot of Dutch boats use this, they are the masters. No real big rust problems. I looked at one, even had bare steel inside!
Hah!! Fantastic, cheers for sharing that Mark 👍 yeah, the Dutch certainly mastered the steel world!!
I also wondered that Corten or shipyard steel wasn't mentioned. As any steel build things the kind of construction is very important. And at least the first treatment of the inside of the hull. My boat was sandblasted inside when the hull was finished and then shielded with 4 coats of 2k epoxy primer. Never had problems with corrosion inside though I had some saltwater already inside. Corten steel is corroding 0.1mm/year in saltwater, time enough for mainrence.
And the notched impact strength of steel is much higher than aluminum at the same thickness of material.
I hitted the ground several times, up to 5kn speed, never a problem. Ask a owner of a modern plastic boat about the damage, many of this stories here on YT.
And galvanic corrosion isn't a real problem if there are zinc anodes. In comparsion to aluminium I never heard that a steel hull became a Emmentaler cheese, but aluminium does if not perfect prevented.
Apologize my poor english!
Some great points there! Thanks for sharing 👍
Doesn't matter what a boat is built from, it seems most owners can't afford or don't want to maintain them. Have a look at the majority of boats for sale, poorly maintained the lot of them.
Sadly.. your not wrong! Finding a good used boat is getting harder and harder to find.
Dude the number of boats I have looked at that are covered inside in rubbish and junk is insane, they can't even be bothered to clean and wash the boat for sale then want 10 times what it is worth!
@@SailHub
Might be easy to get steel etc to do hull repairs, but what you forgot to mention is there are alot of boat yards that dont allow hot work, ie grinding and welding steel.
That’s true actually, thanks for pointing it out!
It’s strange how some boat yard are like that, they must think boats are born. 😆
That's why you go to the fishing boat yards :-)
Nailed it 👍
@timothyblazer1749 all well and good if you have a large fleet of small steel fishing boats to support big yards dedicated to them but not everywhere has that. We don't where I am. Steel fishing boats are in the same position as everyone else.
@@benmac940 "where I am"... Sir, its a boat. Go to where the steel boatyard is :-)
Then you should check Yelkovan 56.
Wow, what a boat! Not really my ideal boat but it’s an awesome machine! Just look at it! I bet you. I bet you could go anywhere in that… if you have the time, money and your happy belting 35 ton of yacht around! What a machine!
Steel is easy to get by and reasonably easy to handle but it takes a lot of maintenance work.
Hello again! Yup, I would agree with that! If you do it right first time though it will last a lot longer than most people think!
@@SailHub True, you just cannot stop ever and have a break. It's like the Eiffel Tower paintjob: you start at the bottom and once you've finisshed the top you start again at the bottom.
@@diotough 😂 sailing… it’s as much about enjoying the maintenance as enjoying the sea!
Considering the topic at hand does anyone have any experience with 90-10 copper nickel as a boat building material? ( yes , yes I know it's very, very expensive)
Now there’s a question. Such a rare build! I believe Bruce Roberts designed some. 90-10, possibly a close to perfect material? Pretty much no growth below the waterline, heavy but sting so the plate is quite thin. I believe you can use a 70-30 for extra strength too. Possibly the only downsides are the cost. There is galvanic corrosion too but it does appear minimal too.
Are you thinking of building one?
@@SailHub I am "gently probing" the possibilities, yes.
Amazing, keep us posted. I would love to watch this unfold! 🤞👍
@@SailHub Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping the Metal Boat Society will be a good resource. I would be open to any and all suggestions at this point. Thanks,...fair winds!
Did it work?
The weight to price ratio of steel versus aluminium is positive for aluminium (weight difference 5x)with the added positive effect that aluminium is lighter. Steel might be better if build correctly in iceberg filled waters but proper aluminium yachts can be good also there. (aluminium can be welded MIG TIG also by the way) Biggest advantage offcourse in the cost departement is that aluminium does not need paint...So in the long run aluminium gets to be even cheaper versus steel.
It’s a romantic idea however, the tig and mid welding process for aluminium takes longer due to the natural heat dissipation. Basically we need to preheat thick alloys and leave then to cool again naturally, in general it means that despite the material costs an Aluminium boat takes more time to fabricate and therefore will always cost more than a steel boat.
Painting though, yeah it’s a win for the ally here! Another thing to bear in mind though is that a well blasted and sprayed steel boat will last an awfully long time before it needs a full repaint again so it’s not really a cost consideration for most metal boat owners. Still, your right that it could make the difference for some people.
what about a boat made from rost free steel?
What’s that then?
Forget it! Stainless steel corrodes too, but in tiny holes you hardly see. The same with ss anchor chains, same dicussion.
@nispuck3241 yup, crevice corrosion of stainless is a real issue! Not sure it’s the same for an anchor chain though as it’s rarely submerged for long enough for it to be starved of oxygen. If it were a stainless chain on a permanent mooring though, that’s a different thing - a big no no!
Hard to understand why all steel boats don’t use Corten steel.
I looked at one , built in Holland where they know their steel boatbuilding, about 15 years old, it was even unpainted in some internal areas, no rust!
It does, similar to aluminium get a protective coating of oxide.
Another advantage that it is stiffer than mild steel, so holds shape with thinner plate.
@markthomasson5077 it’s amazing stuff right. To be honest I’ve no idea either. I presume cost but then there’s the future maintenance of the other option to add too…
In the other hand, if you look after any steel, it will last a long give for sure. Maybe that’s the thought? No idea really 🤷♂️
I take a metal boat over a plastic one
We’re the same!
why not stainless steel.
You can go stainless but he main issue you will have is that stainless needs oxygen to provide its full corrosion resistance properties. Unfortunately there’s not much of that under the water. So it still works, just not as well. It’s also not as strong.
@@SailHub there are alloys of stainless steel that are marine grade or better which should be nearly corrosion resistant. then again it depends on what steel they used for the boat
@curio78 as a marine fabricator I would suggest that 316L is the best alloy for marine use and my earlier comment still rings true. There are other options but you still need the O2 to get the best potential out of it.
Another thing to note is that when it does corrode it’s crevice corrosion. Which is difficult to spot at the best of times let alone under a skin of antifowl.
@@SailHub I belive 316 has high corrosion resistantance but will still corrode. Super Duplex Stainless Steel should be the best. I am a bit unclear about what you mean by o2 requirement for corrosion resistantance. o2 is what is needed for corrosion. the whole exercise in corossion prevention is to prevent o2 from getting in contact is it not?
chloride in the seawater simply accelerates this o2 contact corrosion by basically clearing the old corrosion allowing fresh steel to come in contact with o2.
@@curio78 the oxygen creates an oxide layer. It is that that makes it resistant to corrosion. I’ve see people waxing their stanchions and the likes to ‘protect’ them for the winter, the results are quite the opposite.
Super duplex is fab but only required for high strength and of course you would need to heat treat the entire boat after the welding was complete. 316L has a lower carbon content and would be the chosen material by most. It’s an interesting subject but I would personally stay away from it just because of the crevice corrosion. It just won’t be seen under the waterline due to paint. This of course could be a big problem in years to come.
There was a van de stadt built from stainless about ten/fifteen years back, I believe it’s still not sold.. or at least last year it was still for sale, still unlanunched and new, there’s a reason that sale is painfully long! Either way, if you want to build a stainless boat you go for it chap, I’m knot going to complain, where there’s a will there’s a way and I take my hat off to anybody who’s going to find that way!
Ferro Concrete the only way to go for an adventure/cruising boat. Highly under-rated and stronger than steel.
Pretty good build construction that’s for sure. But… The only way to go? Really?
@@SailHub Strongest construction, lowest overall maintenance, easiest repair [plug with Epoxy], heavy weight hull - great underway and relatively easy to do as a home build. A properly constructed hull will last decades, there are hulls in the pacific left over from WWII that are still serviceable and they have sat unserived probably since WWII! No other boat construction material will last that long.
I know about them for sure. Just before I give my thoughts on them… I just want to point out the video is about a particular material as opposed adventure boats.
So I’m not so sure that ferro cement builds are the only way to go for adventure cruising but they have their love and the material is not a bad choice for adventure cruising, although they are personally not for me.
Personally I think they are very good, the main limitation being weight (like steel) which… although being often overlooked by adventurers does mean slower passage times and longer weather windows.. lighter adventurers tend to get places quicker and easier but of course, weight is good when the going gets bouncy (so long as the weight is in the right place of course)
There is of course the strength question, they are very strong, very strong but.. cracking on impact is a potential, and of course we can’t forget the internal steel structure. How do you definitely know what’s going on in there? The other thing to note is hull shape, it’s relatively limited due to the nature of the material needing to dissipate energy over a large area. Modern lines are not likely to be common part and fin keeled boats are not likely to take a grounding too well. Swing keels will be good and of course relatively common for the material.
I’m not saying they are bad, in fact I would suggest a well built and well designed one will actually be exceptional! However, it’s a sad fact that’s there a lot more boats that do not fit into the well built category than do.
My thoughts are that’s if your building a new one your into a winner, however I must ask how it is actually better than steel?
Rolled steel gives your boat the beautiful lines that plate steel dosent afford. 👍
Would have liked to hear about electrolysis in steel boats.
Sure, rolled steel is a good option although certainly not as common hence I generally talked about the more commonly used hard chine.
Me personally, I’m totally for metallic boats and steel is certainly superior to a traditional wood or fibreglass boat for the cruiser. Electrolysis will be covered under aluminium, we should have covered it for steel too. - lessons learned every week here👍
We have a callisto 385, designed by Bill Dixon before he did Moody Yachts. All rolled hot aluminium sprayed steel, you can't tell she is steel until you knock on the side (or know what to look for) it's another level of solid cruising yacht. No creaks in big waves, no worries about hitting anything and with modern paints, no rust.
@droneonamission Wow, it sounds amazing! I would love to see this 👍
@@SailHub Galvanic corrosion is similar for all boats. Any two metals with different galvanic potential in contact with seawater forms a battery. Zinc is low potential so is used to protect all boats: plastic, aluminum, steel, wood, cement, etc.
@@LoanwordEggcorn yup, only with a metal hull the consequences are potentially greater
are you Italian? no , then stop talking with your hands , ( right at the beginning )... it spoils the video
Geoff, get over yourself, cheers 😀
They made sense back then why not now did the ocean decide to change it's mind all of a sudden????????
Exactly!