This is the most profound passage in the bible in Greek, considering the richness of the word "logos" simply couldn't be easily translated. E.Michael Jones wrote a book called "Logos Rising" that elaborates and expands on this
Wait... Someone wrote a _whole_ book just to elaborate the meaning of the greek word 'Λόγος' in this part of the Bible? Now _that_ is what I call: *dedication* . A few questions: what does he mean by Λόγος? Does he mean 'Word', 'Reason' or 'Discourse'?
We listen to this passage and the rest of it at the end of every Mass. I would love if this channel discussed their impression of the traditional Latin Mass.
Many younger Catholics are gravitating towards the Traditional Latin Mass over the vernacular one. It’s a strange phenomenon that has a long story but it’s a reality. I’ve visited this channel because many of the American priests and figures that teach and pray Latin sound unnatural and uncertain in their pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin. Content like this is great !
Din Giddings In my experience, which encompasses more than a decade on three continents, Catholic priests are quite consistent in attempting the basics of ecclesiastical pronunciation without making much of an effort to quash their native accents. So French priests sound very French, American priests very American, and German priests quite German, even though they all attempt something close to a traditional Italian pronunciation.
@@ScorpioMartianus Wow! I was hoping for a perspective as a Latinist, not necessarily theologically or textually critical, of a modern American like me of the celebration of a rite that is nearly 500 years old. Magister Luke has way, way more experience hearing and speaking Latin and from lots of international accents, than I do, that hearing examples of a tradition that is very much alive would certainly inspire an analysis of some kind. Thank you for your response!
I think I'm going to rewatch this one until I internalize it, as I intend to do with more of your excellent content that is a blessing for us enthusiasts of classical languages.
Luke, nice seeing my name at the end! I’m very thankful for your hard work and firmly believe you’re adding the most needed contributions to the field of classics / philology. Please keep it up. - Keith “Silvānus”
I think that by far the most beautiful era of Greek pronunciation was Late Koine. Still keeping the long vowels and partially the tone of Ancient Greek, but also beginning to change its consonants into the smoother more nice sounding (idk how else to describe them) consonants still found in modern Greek. Perfect mixture!
Yes this transitional period between ancient and modern Greek was definitely the best; That's a pity that they are rather very little videos featuring pronunciation of that period; The majority either uses the erasmian pronunciation (even when reading texts from the Koine period which is totally wrong), or the modern Greek pronunciation, as if nothing existed in between.
Thanks for linking me to this. The shift towards ecclesiastical latin in the 4th century is surprisingly far more pronounced than I had thought it was. I already had read Late Koine is basically almost already "Byzantine" (Romaiike) Greek by this point, but wasn't entirely sure how it sounded beyond that iotaization was already basically complete.
That was so interesting to hear the shifts in the second reading, especially in the latin. I like how hominum shifted more towards uomini, I wonder how a silent letter shifted to a w glide.
I'm a native Greek-speaker. Your Modern Greek pronunciation is very good, especially for an American. Ἆρά γε γινώσκεις ἃ ἀναγινώσκεις ; Ἆρά γε πιστεύεις ἃ ἀναγινώσκεις ;
Is there a way to create a complete 4th century Latin pronunciation system? I would really like to see a fully developed system that could possibly serve as a more historically accurate alternative to Ecclesiastical Latin. Although I find the Ecclesiastically pronunciation beautiful, as someone who has studied Italian, when you pointed out in your recent video that amīcae is pronounced as amice instead of amiche in Ecclesiastical Latin... well, it was like taking the red pill 😂
Certainly! I've been attempting to reconstruct the grammar and phonology of Late Latin circa late 4th century-early 7th century when most Latin dialects had a 3 case system.
I am so blown away by how the 4th century pronunciation sounds so similar to modern Italian. I wonder if the Roman state continued to exist in Italy without interruption, how that would have ended up looking.
Big question because Latin and Greek were the major languages and no-one knows how both would go on though time Could we have a mix of them? Or could just one prevail? Who knows
Fascinating. 'Ipso' becoming 'isso' is still very much in use in the dialect of Naples (in Sicily 'iddu'). I do wonder when the genitive really began being replaced by prepositions. I notice that the genitive (plural in this case) is still very much present in the 4th Century reading. Presumably 'de' creeps in to substitute it further down the road.
Eastern Romance "îns/ins" and "ons, åns, ăns" and also de+ipsum as "dânsul" and ipsum+me "însumi" + all other pronouns attached as well. Maybe Luke can find some other Eastern Romance speakers some day, would be fun to see all these uncommon vocals and consonants better represented. Aromanian especially since they are probably descendants of Rhomaioi (both Greek and Latin speaking people)
The genitive actually survived unmarked in the literary period on the Oblique case as a posessive in Gallo-romance ("Pro Deo Amur" in the Strasbourg Oaths) and on the surviving accusative form in Old Italo-Romance dialects and even in modern dialects in the Apulia region in southern Italy.
The only Roman Catholic mass is the traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo "mass" is an invalid, Protestant service that is the predicted abomination of desolation. Look up vaticancatholic.com for more info and see this video: ua-cam.com/video/WWo-7uVR8yI/v-deo.html
Pleasure to listen you recite the best opening lines in New Testament. The koine part made me wonder if those living back then in Ephesus or Thessalonike would sound just the same!
Thanks! I recite the entire Evangelion here: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gospel-of-john-english-latin-greek-trilingual-audiobook-text
As I thought: Jerome's version has metre, at least in the poetic sections such as this and the Lord's Prayer in Matthew. What kind of metre can (besides direct examination and experimental recitation of the texts) be conceived of with the help of Jerome's descriptions of the metres of biblical poetry and recitation that he was accustomed to translating from Hebrew: "Therefore, from the beginning to the words of Job, among the Hebrews the speech is prose. Next, from the words of Job in which he says, “May the day perish in which I was born, and the night in which it was said: A man is conceived,” to that place, where it is written before the end of the scroll: “Therefore I accuse myself and make repentance in dust and ashes,” the verses are in hexameter, running in dactyl and spondee and, according to the idiom of the language, also accepting numerous other (poetic) feet not of the same (number of) syllables, but of the same intervals. Sometimes also, by breaking the law of (poetic metrical) numbers, the rhythm itself is found sweet and ringing, which is understood better by prosodists than by a simple reader. And from the verse mentioned above to the end of the book, the small section that remains continues with prose speech. If that seems unbelievable to anyone, namely that among the Hebrews there are meters, and either the Psalter or the Lamentation of Jermiah or almost all the songs of the Scriptures are to be understood in the manner of our Flaccus and the Greek Pindar and Alkaios and Sappho, let him read Philo, Josephus, Origen, and Eusebius of Caesarea, and by their testimony he will prove me to speak the truth."
Salve! I am particularly interested in Biblical Koine pronunciation around 100 AD. I know that they were some greek speakers around the Roman Empire which pronounced ε or η for αι and υ for οι. I am interested to know if there were high class Romans and Greeks which also pronounced αι as e for example. I have checked your video on Latin pronunciation of AE diphtong, and there you mentioned that peasants from around Rome pronounced AE as e while in Rome this still sounded like AE. In early 2 century AD or late 1st centrury AD, do αι, οι sound as monophthongs only in Palestine or also in other places in the Empire? Also, I was interested how do we know the letter Υ sounded like ü? When are αι, οι commonly pronounced as monophthongs in the Roman Empire? Is phonemic vowel length necessary if I'm interested in biblical greek? Ευχαριστώ!
Hi Luke! I'm interested in purchasing your trilingual audiobook of the Gospel of John, and I'm just wondering which version of the English bible and which Latin and Greek pronunciations you used. I'm assuming the Greek is in the Lucian pronunciation?
That’s right! English is my normal American accent, Latin is Classical (which I’m most comfortable with, Ecclesiastical for a future release), and yes Lucian
Id really like to see more greek videos. The lucanian? pronounciation is really beautiful. I also watch the videos of giannis stratakis. They are also very nice but as a modern greek its hard to endure this kind of pronounciation sometimes :D
Χαίρε πολύ! 😃 I'm very happy to hear a Greek likes my Lucian Pronunciation! 🇬🇷 I have started this video series: ua-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam.html More is coming soon! Ευχαριστώ!
Grātiās, Lūcī! Possumne tibi petere ut et omnēs et mē, hominem ignorantem, prōnuntiātum linguae Graecae antiquae doceās? Tibi petō quod tibi fidō et tuō prōnuntiātuī ^^ et quod omnia quae in Interrete inveniō (et paucum invenīrī potest) aut male dicunt verba (ut lingua Englinikà facta sit) aut paucum clarum est.
as many probably already said, the latin of 4th century has a really high degree on intelligibility while the classical latin doen't. since I'm also into german, I find really interesting noticing things like: habere (lat) >> avere (it) but habere (lat) >> haben (de). german still has the 'h' and 'b' never became 'v'
Lucian pronunciation seems to be more realistic than any other. Of course again we have the influence of sound on the letters as they sound to the mother language of the speaker .I think I can identify an Italian there?. But this is natural to happen to anyone. Lucian sounds more "normal" and it is in my opinion one of the best attempts to recreate classical pronunciation. Greetings from Hellas ! Very nice try 👍
@@ermishatziantoniou5113 Η σύγχρονη προφορά του είναι πιο τραγουδιστή από όσο θα έπρεπε, αλλά νομίζω ότι η ελληνιστική είναι σωστή. Όσον αφορά την κλασσική προφορά, το βασικό ερώτημα είναι αν πετυχαίνει την προσωδία, αλλά δεν μπορώ καν να την ακούσω οπότε δεν μπορώ να κρίνω.
L'ultima parte latina, quella con la pronuncia italiana moderna, mi sembra eccessiva e a tratti addirittura "caricaturistica": alcune vocali sono allungate all'inverosimile (viiiiiiita erat, hoooooooooominum), io non credo che nessuno in Italia possa pronunciare il latino in questo modo, sembra quasi l'applicazione della classica parlata à la "Super Mario" nel latino moderno ecclesiastico. Mi rendo conto comunque che per l'orecchio straniero le nostre sillabe toniche sembrino molto più lunghe di quelle che in realtà sono anche perché in genere nelle altre lingue non ci sono sillabe così marcate. Comunque complimenti per il canale e per il tuo lavoro che trovo molto interessante e preziosissimo.
To me as well! 😂 I'm pretty sure I'm the first person in hundreds or even a thousand years to produce this reconstructed pronunciation. It's very nearly Italian at this point. My data collected in the spreadsheet bit.ly/ranierilatinpronunciation for this period is based on the findings in the book Latin Latin & Early Romance by Roger Wright.
"Where one word ended with a vowel (including a nasalized vowel, represented by a vowel plus m) and the next word began with a vowel, the former vowel, at least in verse, was regularly elided; that is, it was omitted altogether, or possibly (in the case of /i/ and /u/) pronounced like the corresponding semivowel [y and w]. When the second word was est or et, a different form of elision sometimes occurred (prodelision): the vowel of the preceding word was retained, and the e was elided instead. Elision also occurred in Ancient Greek, but in that language, it is shown in writing by the vowel in question being replaced by an apostrophe, whereas in Latin elision is not indicated at all in the orthography, but can be deduced from the verse form. Only occasionally is it found in inscriptions, as in scriptust for scriptum est." wikipedia on elision in Latin.
@@ricardoferreira2557 Oh, thank you very much! Yes, I know about the apostrophe in Ancient Greek, and we continue the same fashion when we write Modern Greek; that's why it seems more obvious that Greek had/has αποκοπή etc. (I don't know the English word; is it elision?) Are there any other sources that present the phenomenon in Latin? Like grammars or something other than verses and inscriptions?
I said it before, and I say it here again: You do not need to be religious or believe in God to enjoy the word of the so-called Holy Book "The Bible". Besides, I strongly believe that everything sounds way better in Latin and naturally the Bible is not an exception. Plus, one does feel connected to religion and faith more when one reads these books in their original languages. Of course having a tranlation nearby is perfetcly normal and acceptable. I love your pronounciation, Lucius. Keep it up. Vale, Lucius. Et habes tu dies benissime. Caput tua sine capillus et risus tuus sunt plus splendidus et nititus quod futurus meo.
For me everything sounds better in Greek but that's subjective :) . Also, he is not a native Greek speaker which it would help immensely in the proper pronunciation of the words.
I wouldn't say that it was wrong his pronunciation of πάντα ...when speaking colloquially at least, we do pronounce it "pada"... but of course your definition of correct and wrong matters to fully grasp what you mean... I would say though...that I do notice some aspirated ταφ ... "τη" and "σκοτία" to be precise ..I think that I do hear an influence from the english language.... Excellent content by the way...keep up
@@s.papadatos6711 Well, it depends on the region and the dialect one speaks. I am from Macedonia and that's how ντ is pronounced here, I guess in the Ionian islands it sounds more like "d" instead of "nd". Btw, when once in Crete I recall a Cretan who remarked I was pronouncing ντ as "nd" while Cretans usually pronounce it as "d".
@Basil II of Macedon the Vardaskan slayer φίλε...τα προφέρει με την αρχαία κλασσική και μετέπειτα βυζαντινή προφορά, κατι που δυστυχώς το εκπαιδευτικό σύστημα δεν αναφέρει καν (δικιά μου εμπειρία) και που παραδόξως είναι καλά θεμελιωμένη θεωρία (αυτή της ανασυντηθέμενης κλασσικής προφοράς και βυζαντινής) η οποία φαντάσου διδάσκεται και σε γλωσσολογικά τμήματα πανεπιστημίων ... Ο Μπαμπινιώτης ο ίδιος κάνει νύξη στο συγκεκριμένο θεμα και σε κατι βιντεο στο you tube που εχουν ανεβαστει με θεμα 3 λεπτα για την ελληνικη γλωσσα
@Basil II of Macedon the Vardaskan slayer Δεν ξέρω απο που αντλεις τις πληροφοριες σου ρε. Δεν θελω να σου αλλαξω γνωμη ουτε να σε πεισω...απλα σκεψου μονο αυτο...η γλωσσα αλλαζει...γιατι να εχουμε 5 τροπους να παραστησουμε τον φθογγο "ι" (ι, η,υ, οι και ει) ..παραειναι πολυτελεια..(σημειωτέων, το ελληνικο αλφαβητο εμφανιστηκε καπου στο 800 πΧ αν θυμαμαι καλα) η γιαγια σου δεν μιλαει λιγο διαφορετικά απο εσενα;;; η προγιαγιά σου; στην κύπρο;; στα επτάνησα; στην καβάλα;
The Italian pronunciation of Latin is a relatively recent thing. Originally it would have been pronounced according to the phonology of the vernacular language, which was undergoing many changes.
at the beginning sound like classic Latin pronunciation but changed to sound like italian accent . ej verbum -> uerbum not verbum and also principio with c .
There's no way Late Latin sounded so Italian, I'm not even fully convinced it had long vowels by that point, that was an innovation that developed between the 6th-9th centuries in Italian and a few other now extinct Romance languages, hence why Italian is not entirely consistent with Classical Latin in which stressed syllables are long and which are short. And notice Sardinian makes no distinction in vowel length at all. Concerning its relation to Classical Latin and even Proto-Italic, if you observe vowel shifts that occured in the aforementioned centuries and which occur now in Romance phonology you will notice that it is on the whole quite cyclical.
"There's no way Late Latin sounded so Italian" - on what do you base that assertion? 😊 From my readings of the Late Latin grammarians, and my understanding of the linguistic transformations at hand, my reconstruction of 4th and 5th century Latin pronunciation (even for the erudite! not merely for the "vulgus") is probably quite accurate. Don't get my wrong; I was equally surprised when I heard it for the first time! "I'm not even fully convinced it had long vowels by that point" - Right, the contrast of phonemic vowel length is gone by the 4th century AD, and my reading reflects that (notice that I removed the macrons for the post-Classical forms of both tongues). "that was an innovation that developed between the 6th-9th centuries in Italian and a few other now extinct Romance languages" - I have no idea what you're talking about here. What innovation are you speaking of?
@@joshuacarlson240 There is/was no contrastive vowel length in any branch except for rhaeto romance. What you're hearing is stressed open syllable lengthening (as in Italian), which is what phonemic vowel length developed into.
@@Philoglossos Precisely my point, except like what Luke said, phonemic distinction between short and long vowels was gone by the 4th century, it did not develop into anything. The open syllable lengthening was an Italian innovation, devoid of any influence from Latin. As I mentioned before Romance phonology is cyclical, and there is strong anachronistic and contemporary evidence to support the phenomenon.
@@joshuacarlson240 No, open syllable lengthening was not an Italian innovation - it is a fundamental component of the loss of phonemic vowel length and is part of the phonological history of all of romance, and is attested directly very early. Basically, here's what happened: 1) Latin had its original system of five qualities that could be long or short. 2) The distinction in length began to be neutralized in unstressed syllables, but was maintained in stressed syllables, such there were still minimal pairs such as ōs and os. 3) Short open syllables lengthened and closed long syllables shortened, completely neutralizing these minimal pairs and thus ending phonemic vowel length. 4) Some romance languages (namely Italian and Sardinian) maintained this state of affairs, while others lost it, and still others developed it into a new set of length contrasts (Rhaeto romance and Northern Italian).
Libru De Contenentia D'Infinitate Cun Editiones Sue In Parte In Latinu Et Quomo Disinfectare Dalli Spiriti De Malentia: Pro Toti Inabitantes D'Essistentia. Incipid Capu Primu. This is my use of Late-'Proto'-Romance-Very Early Italian.
@@andreastheo2019 σοβαρότατος. Ο άνθρωπος είναι πιο σπουδαγμένος από σένα κι από μένα. Οι αρχαίοι δεν μιλούσανε σαν όπως σήμερα. Η προφορά του είναι όντως εύστοχη
I very quickly recognized this as part of the Last Gospel of the Tridentine Mass.
This is the most profound passage in the bible in Greek, considering the richness of the word "logos" simply couldn't be easily translated.
E.Michael Jones wrote a book called "Logos Rising" that elaborates and expands on this
Wait... Someone wrote a _whole_ book just to elaborate the meaning of the greek word 'Λόγος' in this part of the Bible? Now _that_ is what I call: *dedication* .
A few questions: what does he mean by Λόγος? Does he mean 'Word', 'Reason' or 'Discourse'?
I love E. Micheal Jones! Would recommend all his works.
We listen to this passage and the rest of it at the end of every Mass. I would love if this channel discussed their impression of the traditional Latin Mass.
Thanks for the comment! What kind of discussion did you have in mind?
Many younger Catholics are gravitating towards the Traditional Latin Mass over the vernacular one. It’s a strange phenomenon that has a long story but it’s a reality. I’ve visited this channel because many of the American priests and figures that teach and pray Latin sound unnatural and uncertain in their pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin.
Content like this is great !
Din Giddings In my experience, which encompasses more than a decade on three continents, Catholic priests are quite consistent in attempting the basics of ecclesiastical pronunciation without making much of an effort to quash their native accents. So French priests sound very French, American priests very American, and German priests quite German, even though they all attempt something close to a traditional Italian pronunciation.
@@ScorpioMartianus Wow! I was hoping for a perspective as a Latinist, not necessarily theologically or textually critical, of a modern American like me of the celebration of a rite that is nearly 500 years old. Magister Luke has way, way more experience hearing and speaking Latin and from lots of international accents, than I do, that hearing examples of a tradition that is very much alive would certainly inspire an analysis of some kind. Thank you for your response!
I think I'm going to rewatch this one until I internalize it, as I intend to do with more of your excellent content that is a blessing for us enthusiasts of classical languages.
Alexander Perez Thank you for your kind words, sir!
Luke, nice seeing my name at the end! I’m very thankful for your hard work and firmly believe you’re adding the most needed contributions to the field of classics / philology. Please keep it up. - Keith “Silvānus”
Salvē, mī Silvāne! Thank you so much for being a patron, and for your moral support too! ☺️
I think that by far the most beautiful era of Greek pronunciation was Late Koine. Still keeping the long vowels and partially the tone of Ancient Greek, but also beginning to change its consonants into the smoother more nice sounding (idk how else to describe them) consonants still found in modern Greek. Perfect mixture!
Yes this transitional period between ancient and modern Greek was definitely the best; That's a pity that they are rather very little videos featuring pronunciation of that period; The majority either uses the erasmian pronunciation (even when reading texts from the Koine period which is totally wrong), or the modern Greek pronunciation, as if nothing existed in between.
I see Late Koine already sounded like modern Greek, by that time.
Not only "like,", but just the same, except some funny pronunciation of χ, θ and ζ 😊
@@rigormortis62 Etiam. Ita est.
@@rigormortis62 Also eta.
@@rigormortis62 upsilon too.
@@Rolando_Cueva lol no it’s all the same sound
Thanks for linking me to this. The shift towards ecclesiastical latin in the 4th century is surprisingly far more pronounced than I had thought it was. I already had read Late Koine is basically almost already "Byzantine" (Romaiike) Greek by this point, but wasn't entirely sure how it sounded beyond that iotaization was already basically complete.
That was so interesting to hear the shifts in the second reading, especially in the latin. I like how hominum shifted more towards uomini, I wonder how a silent letter shifted to a w glide.
I'm a native Greek-speaker. Your Modern Greek pronunciation is very good, especially for an American. Ἆρά γε γινώσκεις ἃ ἀναγινώσκεις ; Ἆρά γε πιστεύεις ἃ ἀναγινώσκεις ;
Very nice! Good to notice the difference and "evolution". Waiting for the next Athenaze video =D
Athenaze cap.6 is coming soon! Thanks for watching this one. 😃
This Video is 3:25 Long but you can watch it over and over and learn/discover new things
Is there a way to create a complete 4th century Latin pronunciation system? I would really like to see a fully developed system that could possibly serve as a more historically accurate alternative to Ecclesiastical Latin.
Although I find the Ecclesiastically pronunciation beautiful, as someone who has studied Italian, when you pointed out in your recent video that amīcae is pronounced as amice instead of amiche in Ecclesiastical Latin... well, it was like taking the red pill 😂
Certainly! I've been attempting to reconstruct the grammar and phonology of Late Latin circa late 4th century-early 7th century when most Latin dialects had a 3 case system.
@@ironinquisitor3656 can you give us any updates?? Please I'd be so gratefull
I am so blown away by how the 4th century pronunciation sounds so similar to modern Italian. I wonder if the Roman state continued to exist in Italy without interruption, how that would have ended up looking.
Great question! Latin probably would not have survived as it has to us today. I make a case for that here: ua-cam.com/video/XeqTuPZv9as/v-deo.html
@@ScorpioMartianus
I will definitely watch that video!!
Big question because Latin and Greek were the major languages and no-one knows how both would go on though time
Could we have a mix of them? Or could just one prevail? Who knows
I definitely like the ecclesiastical the most
1:05 4th century AD; 2:06 Modern
Love it, sir!!!!
Fascinating. 'Ipso' becoming 'isso' is still very much in use in the dialect of Naples (in Sicily 'iddu'). I do wonder when the genitive really began being replaced by prepositions. I notice that the genitive (plural in this case) is still very much present in the 4th Century reading. Presumably 'de' creeps in to substitute it further down the road.
Yes! It’s fascinating. It was fun to experiment with, but it’s probably not worthwhile as a practical system. Hence my recording of the Gospel of John
Eastern Romance "îns/ins" and "ons, åns, ăns" and also de+ipsum as "dânsul" and ipsum+me "însumi" + all other pronouns attached as well.
Maybe Luke can find some other Eastern Romance speakers some day, would be fun to see all these uncommon vocals and consonants better represented. Aromanian especially since they are probably descendants of Rhomaioi (both Greek and Latin speaking people)
The genitive actually survived unmarked in the literary period on the Oblique case as a posessive in Gallo-romance ("Pro Deo Amur" in the Strasbourg Oaths) and on the surviving accusative form in Old Italo-Romance dialects and even in modern dialects in the Apulia region in southern Italy.
Gratias et pulchre factu! You made me want to start attending the Mass in Latin!
Also, i never imagined that a "contemporary latin" almost identical to italian ever existed! Wow!
The only Roman Catholic mass is the traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo "mass" is an invalid, Protestant service that is the predicted abomination of desolation. Look up vaticancatholic.com for more info and see this video: ua-cam.com/video/WWo-7uVR8yI/v-deo.html
Pleasure to listen you recite the best opening lines in New Testament.
The koine part made me wonder if those living back then in Ephesus or Thessalonike would sound just the same!
Thanks! I recite the entire Evangelion here: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gospel-of-john-english-latin-greek-trilingual-audiobook-text
@@ScorpioMartianus
As I thought: Jerome's version has metre, at least in the poetic sections such as this and the Lord's Prayer in Matthew.
What kind of metre can (besides direct examination and experimental recitation of the texts) be conceived of with the help of Jerome's descriptions of the metres of biblical poetry and recitation that he was accustomed to translating from Hebrew:
"Therefore, from the beginning to the words of Job, among the Hebrews the speech is prose. Next, from the words of Job in which he says, “May the day perish in which I was born, and the night in which it was said: A man is conceived,”
to that place, where it is written before the end of the scroll: “Therefore I accuse myself and make repentance in dust and ashes,”
the verses are in hexameter, running in dactyl and spondee and, according to the idiom of the language, also accepting numerous other (poetic) feet not of the same (number of) syllables, but of the same intervals. Sometimes also, by breaking the law of (poetic metrical) numbers,
the rhythm itself is found sweet and ringing, which is understood better by prosodists than by a simple reader.
And from the verse mentioned above to the end of the book, the small section that remains continues with prose speech. If that seems unbelievable to anyone, namely that among the Hebrews there are meters, and either the Psalter or the Lamentation of Jermiah or almost all the songs of the Scriptures are to be understood in the manner of our Flaccus and the Greek Pindar and Alkaios and Sappho, let him read Philo, Josephus, Origen, and Eusebius of Caesarea, and by their testimony he will prove me to speak the truth."
Wonderful, but I would love to see full prologue
Salve! I am particularly interested in Biblical Koine pronunciation around 100 AD. I know that they were some greek speakers around the Roman Empire which pronounced ε or η for αι and υ for οι. I am interested to know if there were high class Romans and Greeks which also pronounced αι as e for example.
I have checked your video on Latin pronunciation of AE diphtong, and there you mentioned that peasants from around Rome pronounced AE as e while in Rome this still sounded like AE. In early 2 century AD or late 1st centrury AD, do αι, οι sound as monophthongs only in Palestine or also in other places in the Empire?
Also, I was interested how do we know the letter Υ sounded like ü?
When are αι, οι commonly pronounced as monophthongs in the Roman Empire?
Is phonemic vowel length necessary if I'm interested in biblical greek?
Ευχαριστώ!
Hi Luke! I'm interested in purchasing your trilingual audiobook of the Gospel of John, and I'm just wondering which version of the English bible and which Latin and Greek pronunciations you used. I'm assuming the Greek is in the Lucian pronunciation?
That’s right! English is my normal American accent, Latin is Classical (which I’m most comfortable with, Ecclesiastical for a future release), and yes Lucian
@@ScorpioMartianus Awesome, multās gratiās! Adding it to my shopping cart now!
Id really like to see more greek videos. The lucanian? pronounciation is really beautiful. I also watch the videos of giannis stratakis. They are also very nice but as a modern greek its hard to endure this kind of pronounciation sometimes :D
Χαίρε πολύ! 😃 I'm very happy to hear a Greek likes my Lucian Pronunciation! 🇬🇷 I have started this video series: ua-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam.html
More is coming soon! Ευχαριστώ!
Grātiās, Lūcī! Possumne tibi petere ut et omnēs et mē, hominem ignorantem, prōnuntiātum linguae Graecae antiquae doceās? Tibi petō quod tibi fidō et tuō prōnuntiātuī ^^ et quod omnia quae in Interrete inveniō (et paucum invenīrī potest) aut male dicunt verba (ut lingua Englinikà facta sit) aut paucum clarum est.
as many probably already said, the latin of 4th century has a really high degree on intelligibility while the classical latin doen't. since I'm also into german, I find really interesting noticing things like: habere (lat) >> avere (it) but habere (lat) >> haben (de). german still has the 'h' and 'b' never became 'v'
That's actually just a coincidence. German haben/English have are not related to Latin habere, but to Latin capere.
Question a friend pointed out to me: Why is this different from Pompeius Maurus' explanation of how to pronounce Late Antique Latin?
Very impressive!
Thank you!
I totally want this in Koine pronunciation!!!!
On my audiobooks store luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gospel-of-john-english-latin-greek-trilingual-audiobook-text
Altera pronuntiatio est sane Italica! Videtur esse Italica lingua!
Lucian pronunciation seems to be more realistic than any other. Of course again we have the influence of sound on the letters as they sound to the mother language of the speaker .I think I can identify an Italian there?. But this is natural to happen to anyone.
Lucian sounds more "normal" and it is in my opinion one of the best attempts to recreate classical pronunciation.
Greetings from Hellas ! Very nice try 👍
Ευχαριστώ πολύ!
Fascinating! Gratias ago.
Είσαι πολύ καλύτερος στη Λατινική, παρά στην Ελληνική. Πολύ χρήσιμη δουλειά πάντως. Εύγε!
αδερφε ετσι διαβαζονταν και προφερονταν τα ελληνικα τοτε
@@ermishatziantoniou5113 Δεν είπα το αντίθετο.
@@ermishatziantoniou5113 Η σύγχρονη προφορά του είναι πιο τραγουδιστή από όσο θα έπρεπε, αλλά νομίζω ότι η ελληνιστική είναι σωστή. Όσον αφορά την κλασσική προφορά, το βασικό ερώτημα είναι αν πετυχαίνει την προσωδία, αλλά δεν μπορώ καν να την ακούσω οπότε δεν μπορώ να κρίνω.
Ubi invenitur hoc librum?
Ubi invenītur sacra biblia? Ecce: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=SBLGNT;VULGATE
@@ScorpioMartianus gatias plurimas tibi ago
Is the last one the modern pronunciation?
Yes, the liturgical ones
@@ScorpioMartianus thanks! : )
I would be fascinated to know: precisely how did Deum evolve into Dio? And how did sunt acquire the extra syllable to become sono?
Absolutely! And the final -o develops from a schwa sound at the end of the word.
L'ultima parte latina, quella con la pronuncia italiana moderna, mi sembra eccessiva e a tratti addirittura "caricaturistica": alcune vocali sono allungate all'inverosimile (viiiiiiita erat, hoooooooooominum), io non credo che nessuno in Italia possa pronunciare il latino in questo modo, sembra quasi l'applicazione della classica parlata à la "Super Mario" nel latino moderno ecclesiastico. Mi rendo conto comunque che per l'orecchio straniero le nostre sillabe toniche sembrino molto più lunghe di quelle che in realtà sono anche perché in genere nelle altre lingue non ci sono sillabe così marcate. Comunque complimenti per il canale e per il tuo lavoro che trovo molto interessante e preziosissimo.
Mi è stato importante dare enfasi alle differenze.
As a classicist and classical pronunciation purist, that late 4th century pronunciation sounds absolutely foreign to me lol
To me as well! 😂 I'm pretty sure I'm the first person in hundreds or even a thousand years to produce this reconstructed pronunciation. It's very nearly Italian at this point. My data collected in the spreadsheet bit.ly/ranierilatinpronunciation for this period is based on the findings in the book Latin Latin & Early Romance by Roger Wright.
Dave Zav exactly! 😃👍🏻
Why do you pronounce them as «factum 'st» and «vit' erat», although they're written as «factum est» and «vita erat»?
"Where one word ended with a vowel (including a nasalized vowel, represented by a vowel plus m) and the next word began with a vowel, the former vowel, at least in verse, was regularly elided; that is, it was omitted altogether, or possibly (in the case of /i/ and /u/) pronounced like the corresponding semivowel [y and w]. When the second word was est or et, a different form of elision sometimes occurred (prodelision): the vowel of the preceding word was retained, and the e was elided instead. Elision also occurred in Ancient Greek, but in that language, it is shown in writing by the vowel in question being replaced by an apostrophe, whereas in Latin elision is not indicated at all in the orthography, but can be deduced from the verse form. Only occasionally is it found in inscriptions, as in scriptust for scriptum est." wikipedia on elision in Latin.
@@ricardoferreira2557 Oh, thank you very much! Yes, I know about the apostrophe in Ancient Greek, and we continue the same fashion when we write Modern Greek; that's why it seems more obvious that Greek had/has αποκοπή etc. (I don't know the English word; is it elision?) Are there any other sources that present the phenomenon in Latin? Like grammars or something other than verses and inscriptions?
@@Michail_Chatziasemidis www.textkit.com/scans/AG_New_Latin_Grammar_AR5.pdf this is a very old textbook. it's on page 6.
@@ricardoferreira2557 Oh, I deeply thank you, but I was referring to grammars from ancient Grammarians.
Good discussion! Thanks 😃
Gratias ago!
I said it before, and I say it here again:
You do not need to be religious or believe in God to enjoy the word of the so-called Holy Book "The Bible".
Besides, I strongly believe that everything sounds way better in Latin and naturally the Bible is not an exception.
Plus, one does feel connected to religion and faith more when one reads these books in their original languages. Of course having a tranlation nearby is perfetcly normal and acceptable.
I love your pronounciation, Lucius. Keep it up.
Vale, Lucius. Et habes tu dies benissime. Caput tua sine capillus et risus tuus sunt plus splendidus et nititus quod futurus meo.
For me everything sounds better in Greek but that's subjective :) . Also, he is not a native Greek speaker which it would help immensely in the proper pronunciation of the words.
Wow! Wonderful! I'd like to know how much time you've studying to get such level (since you're autodidact). Gratias tibi, praeceptor!
Salvē! Thanks. 😊 I first started in 2005, then after 2009 I didn't do anything again until 2017. So, 7 years of continuous work in all.
Υou got wrong the modern Greek pronunciation of "ντ" in words such as "πάντα". It is properly pronounced as "panda", not as "pada".
Ah, culpa mea! Thanks.
I wouldn't say that it was wrong his pronunciation of πάντα ...when speaking colloquially at least, we do pronounce it "pada"... but of course your definition of correct and wrong matters to fully grasp what you mean... I would say though...that I do notice some aspirated ταφ ... "τη" and "σκοτία" to be precise ..I think that I do hear an influence from the english language.... Excellent content by the way...keep up
@@s.papadatos6711 Well, it depends on the region and the dialect one speaks. I am from Macedonia and that's how ντ is pronounced here, I guess in the Ionian islands it sounds more like "d" instead of "nd". Btw, when once in Crete I recall a Cretan who remarked I was pronouncing ντ as "nd" while Cretans usually pronounce it as "d".
@Basil II of Macedon the Vardaskan slayer φίλε...τα προφέρει με την αρχαία κλασσική και μετέπειτα βυζαντινή προφορά, κατι που δυστυχώς το εκπαιδευτικό σύστημα δεν αναφέρει καν (δικιά μου εμπειρία) και που παραδόξως είναι καλά θεμελιωμένη θεωρία (αυτή της ανασυντηθέμενης κλασσικής προφοράς και βυζαντινής) η οποία φαντάσου διδάσκεται και σε γλωσσολογικά τμήματα πανεπιστημίων ... Ο Μπαμπινιώτης ο ίδιος κάνει νύξη στο συγκεκριμένο θεμα και σε κατι βιντεο στο you tube που εχουν ανεβαστει με θεμα 3 λεπτα για την ελληνικη γλωσσα
@Basil II of Macedon the Vardaskan slayer Δεν ξέρω απο που αντλεις τις πληροφοριες σου ρε. Δεν θελω να σου αλλαξω γνωμη ουτε να σε πεισω...απλα σκεψου μονο αυτο...η γλωσσα αλλαζει...γιατι να εχουμε 5 τροπους να παραστησουμε τον φθογγο "ι" (ι, η,υ, οι και ει) ..παραειναι πολυτελεια..(σημειωτέων, το ελληνικο αλφαβητο εμφανιστηκε καπου στο 800 πΧ αν θυμαμαι καλα) η γιαγια σου δεν μιλαει λιγο διαφορετικά απο εσενα;;; η προγιαγιά σου; στην κύπρο;; στα επτάνησα; στην καβάλα;
Why the Greece text sounded like a latin🤔
Koine just makes more sense than modern greek. Gotta be the greek used in english that makes it so familiar
Beautiful
Thank you
Please more bible :)
Amazing!
That’s amazing!
Non concordo con la seconda parte. Deum rimane Deum! Pronunciamo così com'è scritto.
The Italian pronunciation of Latin is a relatively recent thing. Originally it would have been pronounced according to the phonology of the vernacular language, which was undergoing many changes.
Wow, did 4-century Latin really sound that close to modern Italian?
According to my reconstruction based on Italian grammarians from that time, yes!
yes absolutely
Every time I hear ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation it hurts my head, not because it's bad or anything, but because it sounds so foreign to me lol
You can use a greek speaker for better enjoyment of greek texts.
Belíssimo. Português.
Jesus Christ is lord and my savior !
at the beginning sound like classic Latin pronunciation but changed to sound like italian accent . ej verbum -> uerbum not verbum and also principio with c .
what's ur point? the whole video is about sound changes throughout time
Make hellenes and italian become romaioi and roman again 😂😂
I was born a Roman and as a Roman I will die. ( A a
Saying we have in Hellas until today)
My ancestors talked like that ? I would have looked at them funny....
They did indeed.
👌💪
There's no way Late Latin sounded so Italian, I'm not even fully convinced it had long vowels by that point, that was an innovation that developed between the 6th-9th centuries in Italian and a few other now extinct Romance languages, hence why Italian is not entirely consistent with Classical Latin in which stressed syllables are long and which are short. And notice Sardinian makes no distinction in vowel length at all. Concerning its relation to Classical Latin and even Proto-Italic, if you observe vowel shifts that occured in the aforementioned centuries and which occur now in Romance phonology you will notice that it is on the whole quite cyclical.
"There's no way Late Latin sounded so Italian" - on what do you base that assertion? 😊 From my readings of the Late Latin grammarians, and my understanding of the linguistic transformations at hand, my reconstruction of 4th and 5th century Latin pronunciation (even for the erudite! not merely for the "vulgus") is probably quite accurate. Don't get my wrong; I was equally surprised when I heard it for the first time!
"I'm not even fully convinced it had long vowels by that point" - Right, the contrast of phonemic vowel length is gone by the 4th century AD, and my reading reflects that (notice that I removed the macrons for the post-Classical forms of both tongues).
"that was an innovation that developed between the 6th-9th centuries in Italian and a few other now extinct Romance languages" - I have no idea what you're talking about here. What innovation are you speaking of?
@@ScorpioMartianus The innovation of contrastive vowel length in late Romance. Unless of course you think it a preservation of the Classical system...
@@joshuacarlson240 There is/was no contrastive vowel length in any branch except for rhaeto romance. What you're hearing is stressed open syllable lengthening (as in Italian), which is what phonemic vowel length developed into.
@@Philoglossos Precisely my point, except like what Luke said, phonemic distinction between short and long vowels was gone by the 4th century, it did not develop into anything. The open syllable lengthening was an Italian innovation, devoid of any influence from Latin. As I mentioned before Romance phonology is cyclical, and there is strong anachronistic and contemporary evidence to support the phenomenon.
@@joshuacarlson240 No, open syllable lengthening was not an Italian innovation - it is a fundamental component of the loss of phonemic vowel length and is part of the phonological history of all of romance, and is attested directly very early. Basically, here's what happened:
1) Latin had its original system of five qualities that could be long or short.
2) The distinction in length began to be neutralized in unstressed syllables, but was maintained in stressed syllables, such there were still minimal pairs such as ōs and os.
3) Short open syllables lengthened and closed long syllables shortened, completely neutralizing these minimal pairs and thus ending phonemic vowel length.
4) Some romance languages (namely Italian and Sardinian) maintained this state of affairs, while others lost it, and still others developed it into a new set of length contrasts (Rhaeto romance and Northern Italian).
👍
Mi pan. desearía aprender lengua latina algún día, amén de ''Deutsche Sprache''.
Libru De Contenentia D'Infinitate Cun Editiones Sue In Parte In Latinu Et Quomo Disinfectare Dalli Spiriti De Malentia: Pro Toti Inabitantes D'Essistentia. Incipid Capu Primu. This is my use of Late-'Proto'-Romance-Very Early Italian.
This all sounded with an English accent. Lol
Your pronunciation in Greek is not very good.
@Achaean
It's pretty bad.
It’s actually quite good
@@YiannissB. are you serious malaka😂it sounds not good at all but he’s trying!
Lol much so
@@andreastheo2019 σοβαρότατος. Ο άνθρωπος είναι πιο σπουδαγμένος από σένα κι από μένα. Οι αρχαίοι δεν μιλούσανε σαν όπως σήμερα. Η προφορά του είναι όντως εύστοχη