Tech Talk 22: How to Improve the Klipsch RP-600M! Part 1
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- Опубліковано 27 лют 2020
- How to Improve the Klipsch RP-600M! Part 1! What Audiophiles need to know!
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Hi Danny! Bought the RP600 M:s yesterday to 1) See what the hype was all about, including "the Horn Thing" 2) Get speakers with higher sensitivity than my current ones (90 dB/W*m), to see what my little very good sounding Single ended 2*6W Class A tube amp would like that.
First two main impressions though, when using my 2*6W Single Ended Class A tube amp, were big, big disappointments;
A) The claimed sensitivity of 96 dB/W*m is clearly a marketing trick (a lie... )
They gave the impression to more likely be closer to 86 dB/W*m !! MUCH harder to drive than both my Wharfedale Lintons at 90 dB/W*m and my old but very fine sounding Heybrook HB1:s, also at 90 dB/W*m.
B) They lack fine texture and upper range detail and resolution, and are unable to create any true sense of airy, shimmering presence of voices instruments etc Full liquid decays of cymbals etc are not really there.
Direct comparisons A-B-A between the 40 years old stock Heybrook HB1:s and the RP600 M:s, were actually rather embarrassing for the RP600 M:s in that respect.
Since my Wharfedale Linton Heritage:s went through a fantastic transition , to just gorgeously sounding, by upgrading crossover components, from crap level ( industry standard sandcast 75 cent resistors, cheap no-name Chinese crap caps etc ) , I did the same to the RP600 M:s yesterday evening.
In sharp contrast to my Lintons, the RP600 M:s did not benefit significantly from high quality XO componets, and are still , when hooked up to the 2*6W SE Class A tube amp, lifeless and uninteresting to listen to, if your "personal listening apparatus" in form of your ears and brain, work anything like mine anyway.
THOUGH..... :
When :
1) Hooking the upgraded RP600 M:s up to my very good quality solid state amp,
the NAD 317, sporting 2*80 "NAD Watts", ( approx. 800$ in 1989 )
2) Placing the RP600 M:s close to a solid heavy brick wall of my house, instead of 3 meters in front of it,
the RP600 M:s wake up tremendously, and deliver a very dynamic and actually quite engaging presentation. Even the upper register gets some healthy breaths of life into it, while still not really "there" when it comes to the most delicate detail and full decays.
In this setup another weakness of the RP600 M:s gets revealed, namely a lacking "body" of midrange, making voices and instruments sounding rather thin and not as full as I am used to. The pronounced dip in the freq. response curve you showed might just be the reason for that..
To potential buyers I would state:
A) Be aware of the far below 96 dB/W*m sensitivity that is claimed ( 88 dB/W*m = true )
I found some serious real world tests both measuring roughly 88 dB/sensitivity
B) If you are an experienced audiophile, used to airy, shimmering, life like presentation, the RP600 M:s may, just may, not be for you. Or, paired with really good solid state amp, it can be your engaging and fun to listen to second system.
My RP600 M:s will be out for sale this afternoon..... Someone may get lucky, but I did not really, since having planned to use with low powered single ended tube amps, which turned out to be a far from good match.
The Klipsch speaker I really would like to try out is the Cornwall IV, which has more of real horns in comparison to the wave guides of the RP600 M:s, but that is out of my price range for now
Cheers, Magnus
OMG, I thought I knew a little about sound until I watched this. So impressed with this video. I can understand about half of which he speaks. Brilliant! Thank you so much for posting.
Hi watched all videos, and plan to upgrade my Klipsh 600m speakers soon
Danny, received the RP-600M upgrade as a Christmas gift from my folks. I thought I enjoyed the speakers before, but this really opened them up! Setup is an Onkyo 676, Klipsch RP-600M (about 1foot from the wall and 10' apart, due to room constraints, 1 speakers also about 2 feet from the corner) and dual Klipsch 10" subs. Prior to the upgrade, the speakers were bassy, and had, what I thought, detailed highs... which I like about Klipsch. I changed out the crossovers on one speaker to do a side by side comparison. I have to admit, I was a little disappointed at first as I though I was losing detail with the treble being cut back. Went ahead and completed the upgrade on the second speaker. Holy Shit! What a major difference. The center imaging was good, now it is impressive. I dont need my subs for music listening anymore as the Klipsch 600Ms are punchier, cleaner, and seem to have a little more oomph behind them (have not changed positioned of stands between builds). The treble is lessened, but the mids are drastically improved. I found myself wanting to crank the stereo up more and more as the speakers now really draw me in. I was skeptical at first, but through all genres of music, these things really opened up more clarity, detail, quickness, and all those other audiophile words. I did boost my treble as i prefer more treble in my music, bass was turned back to zero, was +3 before, and again, subs are turned way down. Great job and thanks for putting in the effort and research to make this fun speakers even more exciting!
A couple of things I did slightly different than the videos: I used pegboard for the cross over mounts instead of MDF or any other wood. Figured the pegboard would be quicker and easier with all the holes. I also added hot glue to all the components in conjunction to the zip ties to prevent any potential movement and rattle. I also hot glued the board to the base instead of screwing it down. With the soldering, I tinned all my wires beforehand as it aids with the soldering, requiring less heat and potential to melt something, and also cleans the wire as solder is added. Other than those minor changes, followed the videos. I did not put any dampening on the driver, i may go back one day and add a little putty to help with the "ringing".
What ringing?
After all that you have ringing... is this a ringing from the speakers or the upgrades?
@@anonimushbosh He's referring to the woofer basket ringing but there isn't any way to prove its happening without before/after measurements.
@@anonimushbosh you can stick bits of the No-Rez on the legs of the basket to dampen the ringing.
What You think about puttin a battery in the circuit zo pre load the capacitor as done in some JBL speakers. Does that provide any improvement?
Could the drop at the cross over point be corrected by putting the chassis in an angle of let's say 179° or a little less?
You have change everything mate
Just got my kit yesterday. Looking forward to assembling the parts this weekend!
How did it go and how are they now ?
@@stephenyoud6125 it went well, relatively speaking. I miss wired it at first, but the guys at GR were quick to help me correct my mistakes over a couple emails.
They are great now! The low end response is way cleaner and deeper. The vertical off axis is improved more than anything, which was huge for me because sometime I like to stand in front of my speakers instead of sitting in the seat at speaker level. The over all clarity is much better than before and I believe it was well worth the upgrade.
@@gavinm717gkm I'm up grading 3 pairs of Linn Tukans as wall mounted Atmos surrounds and two pairs of Linn AV 5110's as Atmos ceiling speakers. I upgraded the crossovers with better parts wit the original crossover values before measuring their responces with REW. then after measuring them I found their responces weren't flat, so now I've developed revised crossovers and ordered the additional parts of different values. My revised crossover layouts are now much better. Thanks toi Danny for the knowledge and inspiration.
@@gavinm717gkm very glad to hear it, and another positive datapoint against the doubters and haters that don’t believe this matters. I just recd my internal wire and tube connectors to upgrade my active Linn Keltiks with different drivers and new sealing gaskets, so looking forward to that. But am also rebuilding the crossovers on the surround speakers in my home Theater with better quality parts and revised crossover designs to give flatter responses just like Danny does
Hey Danny, what do you suggest on the other end of the cable, when installing the tube connectors at the speaker? Ive got standard binding posts on the back of my amp. Do you suggest wiring straight to the amp’s binding post with no connector? I currently use banana plugs on both ends, but am about to switch to the tube connectors on my speakers.
Hey Danny learning a lot by watching your channel. Thanks. Have you done any cross-over upgrades on Klipsch RF3 ii?
Not yet.
I just bought a pair of Klipsch Rp 600 m for $400. I checked on your website the upgrade kit for $315 . Was wondering what you actually get for $315. I saw a sheet of self adhesive some foam for $54 is included. Like the setup of your research lab !
I wonder if similar upgrade can be done for Klipsch R41 ? I need a small size PC speakers but want them to sound good as well (as much as it is possible with 4 inch woofer). Thank you!
How can the tube connector matter if it's just a normal binding post at the other end of the cable at your amp?
Can you expand more on how these technical changes in Freq. response, etc, change the actual sound of the speaker?? That would be really helpful!
As he's said on numerous occasions and confirmed by my own at home upgrades, the parts values and crossover design or layout determine the overall frequency responce. The higher quality parts like here show up in the clarity and imaging and not the frequency responce per se.
However buying an upgrade kit does push these into the 1000$ range, you can almost get adams for that.
What about the amp? My amp has some banana plugs on it too. Is it worth it to upgrade to some tube connectors on my klipsch then or would I have to upgrade my amp as well to hear the difference?
Thank you for your Videos, I love them. They taught me so much🔥
There are improvement to upgrade the connectors on the amp as well. We've upgraded most of the binding posts on our amps to tube connectors.
:) maybe you can show a measurement of the major difference of the connector ?
no,he can't
I see what you’re getting at here but some things can’t be measured through the traditional methods of measuring speaker’s. If you wanted to measure stuff like the difference of connectors, you’d first have to find out what the different connectors is changing. I’m not defending tune connectors or advising against them, but some things are very hard to measure with typical measuring methods.
@@musiccritic8704 Audio behaves sometimes unexplainable. I am using lately innertubes under my speakers and it's a very strange improvement. Better but strange and unexplainable.
@@berrycitroen2541 That's completely explainable and well known. You're uncoupling the speaker from the floor and preventing sound from resonating from it as well.
Does your upgrade change the impedance?
Would these upgrades be as necessary if you're using room correction software like Audyssey or Dirac? Would they be even more valuable then?
Absolutely, Room correction can't fix a poorly designed crossover. I'll address room resonances. The mid suckout in their original frequency responce will loads the room inconsistently and cause more of a challenge for the room correction. I've watched all of these upgrade videos and its a common thing especially with Klipsch and B&W models.
How do you avoid voiding the mfg warranty. Klipsch warranty states that any modification voids warranty.
Great videos.
Do you have anything for Magnepan 1.7i ?
Thanks.
He does not, but it would be nice. I like them, but if they could be improved, great.
Hi. Can I start by replacing tube connectors on my vintage Kenwood speakers? You suggested upgrading will have problems.
You start there if you like. It's an easy upgrade.
Danny Richie hi Danny, replacing tube connectors only seems difficult without altering the crossover. I am considering sending one loud speaker to you after COVID-19 is over. In the meantime can I just try No Res? Where do I get the right kind of No Res? Also, my 17in woofer cage seems weak and thin. Is woofer replacement a solution? Or can it be strengthened?
You can order the No Rez from us: gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx
If your woofer box is thin and week then add another outer layer to it.
Hi there, would you say that it's possible to convert a pair of Tannoy Mercury B3 floorstanders to some sexy looking bookshelfs? If I recall correctly there was a bookshelf version as well, so I also assume that they use the same drivers, just with a different crossover design...
Ok, I'm intrigued! I've got a pair of RP-280F's and even though I enjoy listening to them, they have caused some ear fatigue at high volume. I didn't know if it was just because I was getting old or what. Now I'm thinking that the speakers might just be too bright. I'm going to check with the wife and see if I can't scrape up the money for this upgrade. Thank you for your videos, you're a huge help to us out there looking for higher quality.
Did you ever perform the upgrade? Would like to hear about your sound improvements.
David Olchewsky I have not. I’ve had friends and family visiting all summer and then my wife and I took a vacation to the South. I haven’t had the time but I’m hoping to get to it soon.
@@jeremygattenby2183 How about now, Jeremy?
@@MaterLacrymarum I did complete the upgrade. They sound great, much easier on the ears, better imaging, better sound stage. The crossover was a little more of a challenge than I expected but that’s probably just because I’m a novice. It was a fun project and I would recommend it if you are up to the challenge.
@@jeremygattenby2183 Even after the upgrade you might see some improvement with EQ (I use mini DSP with my upgraded RP600M). The tweeter is not fatiguing at all now BUT the rise in HF presents itself in how I hear the midbass of the speaker. Sounds like it's a smaller speaker. Once I added a room curve the speaker sounds so much larger and much fuller. Mind you, i was having this "not full enough" feeling with Dual 18" sealed monster subs. It's amazing how one end of the frequency response can alter your perception of another.
how to order the components?
Love you videos Danny. My probably silly question in regards to doing this upgrade... I've had a lot of decent systems over the years ... Proac Response IIs, KEFs, Klipsch RF-5s driven by either Adcom 555s or AES 300Bs or 2A3s using AQ Diamond interconnects and bi-amp AQ Midnight speaker cables. Now I use a 300B amp and last year bought a set of Klipsch RF7-IIIs. Love em and use a Polk 12" sub. They are just too large for my oceanfront 825 ft2 condo. If I sell my 7s, buy a pair of these monitors and put your crossover in them (I'm an EE), will I be satisfied? TY in advance for your thoughts.
Ads? People see ads? I haven't seen ads since forever.
TBF, they get paid for ads to download (or stream, if you will), not to actually display the ad. So an ad blocker that allows the stream to download instead of blocking it - but simply doesn't display the ad on your screen - would be the best of both worlds. You don't see the ad, but they still get paid for it.
That's the kind of ad blocking we all need.
I'm starting to believe these companies deliverately make flawed corssover designs to justify selling more expensive models. I mean.. it can't be that hard to do right? Hmm..
It comes down to money. They could design the very best speaker possible - but no-one would be able to afford it. When they start thinking about these speakers, the price point/profit ratio is probably the first thing they come up with. They then work to the budget.
Is it the same for the older Klipsch RP-160m?
The stamp on the RP600M Crossover board says RP600M RP160M , So I would assume they are the same crossover.
Wondering the same thing.
Sorry but how is $319 not very much money? That's what I paid for the speakers new in the box! Would I be better off selling them and just getting a pair of $750 speakers that don't need modification?
He said in the video of the $2200 Focals that you'd be hard pressed to find a pair of ($750) speakers that don't need modification, sadly.
I mean no disrespect but what speakers have you designed yourself that should put you at the level where I want to destroy a perfectly designed speaker that has its popularity based on the voicing it has? Just going after better measurements does not help make what is already a classic speaker sound better. I'm sure this is a good way for people to jump in and get their feet wet on speaker design but please don't use a perfectly designed speaker and Hope that it turns out better.
This technical research and associated UA-cam videos make it even more confusing for customers who are trying to purchase speakers. What is the consumer to do?
I have been looking at the Klipsch RP-600M as the bookshelf speakers that I want to use for my left and right surrounding channels. Now I find out that the speakers are not functioning correctly, even though they are supposed to be referenced level. Apparently the RP-500M speakers are functioning better, so perhaps I could get those instead. In the meantime the other speakers I want to purchase would probably fail this test as well because for my main speakers in the front I would like to use the RP-8060FA, but you have a video where you show the frequency response of the Klipsch RP-8000F is failing. Since the 8060FA is just like the Klipsch RP-8000F, except that it has an additional Atmos upward firing speaker, I'm betting that the RP-8000F would fail your tests.
I also want to use a Klipsch center channel for my home theater, and I have my eyes on the RP-504C, but you have already reviewed and tested that speaker, and found problems in that one as well.
What the hell am I supposed to do? I chose the Klipsch reference line for it's superiority over the standard line, but it's not passing your tests. It seems like every good speaker out there has been analyzed by your research team, and has been found wanting.
(1) Can you recommend a brand of speakers, where they use high quality parts, such as the proper type of resistors and capacitors and speaker connectors and dampening? Which brand can you recommend to us that will not require subsequent modification or upgrades?
(2) Do you provide a service to your customers where they ship the speakers to you, and then you upgrade them with the proper parts, and then ship them back to the consumer? Or do you provide only the parts kits and have the consumer make the repairs on their own? I ask because I don't feel particularly confident that I can take a speaker apart, monkey with the circuit board and upgrade all the parts on the circuit board, and put it back in the speaker cabinet, without blowing something up.
Please advise, because frustrated consumers want to know. Frustrated consumers NEED to know.
Respectfully,
Chris
Chris, who makes the best pizza?
Think about that question, and then change pizza with speakers. You've probably tried more pizzas than speakers you will ever get to listen to and experience.
Klipsch reference is a bit of a misnomer if you are defining reference as "the reference." It's not. No one has that patent claim. It is "a" reference. It has its unique flavor and combination of those same basic ingredients that most speakers have. A set of drivers that reproduce sound in the audible range of human hearing.
They can have vastly different characteristics. The very best of the high end seek to produce sound waves with no added coloration and may produce a completely flat frequency response at the same levels across all frequency ranges and guess what? That might not be pleasing for your tastes because it will likely reproduce and present the source material in a way to you that is completely foreign to how you've experienced music in the past.
To quickly summarize, you could look at charts and graphs and performance all day but how does it taste, (sound) to you?
I could make you a pizza with the finest flour, prized tomatoes and buffalo mozzarella and tell you it's got all the best components inside, expertly crafted and baked and you may think pizza hut is way better.
Audio is frustrating like that because you need to spend some time living with and listening to different gear before you may find what you like to actually live with.
I've demoed gear in listening rooms that sounds flat and gravitate to the gear that excites me right away. But then getting them home and trying to listen critically for long periods across a range of material and I keep going back to the audio man wanting more and more neutral and flat so I can soak into the music more than being shouted at. It's all about your preferences and tastes and ultimately what works for you.
Welcome to all of our enjoyment/hell 😉
Go with what you like and forget about measurements. You probably wouldn't pick your significant other based on measurements solely. There is much more about character overall that is going to make someone or some speaker easier and more satisfying to live with
E
@@erics.4113 The first part of the question is easy. *I* make the best pizza! I make the homemade dough on my own, shred the mozzarella, use fresh mushrooms and a store bought sauce. Bake at 325 for 35 minutes!!! And it's perfect!!!
I like your analogy, but suppose that you discovered, through science, that your pizza was missing the sauce on three of the eight slices? Would that be merely a scientific observation? Or would there be a noticeable difference that you could perceive? Hmmmm.... It's certainly "food for thought" !!!!
I ended up getting some JBL bookshelf speakers that were on sale, $600 marked down to $249!!! TOO GOOD to resist!!! They are the JBL Studio 530 models.
Thanks for your comments and clever pizza analogy!
Chris
P.S. Never thought about the speaker / spouse analogy based on measurements alone. Is that what they mean when a speaker / wife is "too loud" ??? :) :) :)
@@FenderStrat19711 right on man I like jbl sound, always have. I haven't heard those speakers personally but I would like to. Your pizza sounds delicious as well!
Back to the analogy.. most of the food I've gotten the most pleasure from has been crafted by chefs and not objectively analyzed by science. Although with sound there are some caveats. There is a very real range of audible frequency and a speaker must, at the very least, be able to articulate all of or most of those frequencies to be satisfactory. Beyond those measurements though, how it sounds to you is ultimately what makes it enjoyable. I don't care for some delicacies despite how many food experts may tell me it's delicious.
And there is no end game for food for me. Or music. Or speakers. I don't wish to eat the same dish, listen to the same track over and over or even the same artist or genre. The same goes for speakers. What's been enjoyable is tasting different flavors and appreciating the strengths in each.
Ultimately, a goal may be to get a setup that you really enjoy across your listening tastes. And THAT becomes your 'Chris' reference. Any changes to gear you may make from there will all be based on what you like about your reference setup and any areas you discern could be improved. That's the artful creative part of it. You get to be the chef of your music!
@@ivand200 Loudness boost is against my religion, it messes up the sound when the vol ctrl goes past #6, esp on weak level sources and goes flat at max setting. I ripped out the loudness components from my compact Dynavox amp (doesn't have louds off switch), now I have a straight clean volume control range without response shifts. Many small Realistic amps have full time louds, they have also been de-loudnessed
Like the part around 4:00 where he knocks his knuckles against the klipsch and you can hear the hollow resonance.
I have these speakers and don't totally hate them, but I assure you if you get a source track that holds a frequency at the range of that hollow knock it will resonate like a mofo! Sure it gives that hollow body guitar liveliness that can be pleasing some of the times... But when it goes wrong at volume it's bad.
How to improve any speaker in my opinion is spend more money initially when purchasing in the first place and then you won't have to go to the painstaking drama of rebuilding the speaker you purchased in the first place
We upgrade a lot of high end and sometimes fairly pricey speakers as well. Sometimes big bucks won't get you as much as you think.
so you want 250 Euros for the 5 parts you have laying on the table?!?!? WOW, what a YOKE.
It‘s not a horn speaker, that‘s a waveguide
www.klipsch.com/products/rp-600m-bookshelf-speakers
Not according to Klipsch.
There’s not a tremendous difference between a horn or waveguide in reality. Horns are primarily used for added efficiency whereas waveguides are for controlling directivity.
@@MrsZambezi a horn does two things:
1. it guides the soundwaves (just like a waveguide), but the main thing of a horn is:
2. it provides gain by converting the pressure
So there is an important difference, and that's why this Klipsch isn't a horn speaker.
Best way to improve them is drop them in oven at 300c and leave them for 1 hour or so
I am NOT AT ALL a Mr Fix-it. I have next to zero technical skills or engineering type capabilities. How easy for the complete idiot to this kind of thing is an upgrade kit like this? Thanks.
I skeptical of this assessment of the RP-600M. In measurements made by others the speakers have no dip. Add to that the connectors than improve sound, and the ability to hear and be disgusted by the cable jacket material. Be aware.
The earth is not really flat.
The guy is testing a particular instance. The graphs etc. will show a little variance from speaker to speaker. This guy is also a perfectionist, so he'll be more sensitive than most.
I’m a flat earther but I believe in tube connectors
Get to the point, jack