How to Build Wheels Like a Pro!
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- Опубліковано 18 січ 2020
- Let me know you how to build wheels that will last a lifetime! These methods work great for all styles of wheels from low spoke count race wheels to bicycle touring wheels.
This video definitely emphasizes prep and tensioning techniques over how to lace. If you want an easier to follow guide on lacing, you can check out this link - www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbui...
Our Website: elevationwheelcompany.com
Our Partner: performance-united.com
How to measure spoke length: • How to Calculate Spoke...
A great resource for wheel builders: www.wheelfanatyk.com/wheelbui...
Affiliate links for tools to build your own wheels:
Park Truing Stand amzn.to/30DdmXZ
Park Spoke Tension Gauge amzn.to/2NDXpeM
DT Swiss Spoke Wrench amzn.to/38kPFX0
Problem Solvers Holy Driver problemsolversbike.com/produc... - Спорт
I’d simply like to comment on Chris Murray’s workmanship and level of knowledge. As both a wheel builder and an all around bike mechanic, Chris is meticulous and tremendously knowledgeable. I’ve been taking my bikes to him for years, and every time, he treats them with the same level of care he would dedicate to his own. I’ve also had Chris build up a pair of Zipp 303’s with White Industries hubs. The wheels now have several seasons and about 20k miles on them. They’re running flawlessly, and have never required more than standard maintenance. Chris knows his business. Don’t hesitate to use his advice with your own wheels or hire him to build a set for you!
Thanks so much Brian! I still can't believe how quick time has gone by since we built up those Zipps for you!
I have built well over a thousand wheels and I just learned something from him. Love using the finger to feel for spoke torsion. I usually watch for the twist but feeling for it would be easier.
@@jamesledingham5405 happy to hear it was helpful! I am always learning myself no matter how long I have been doing this!
I can highly recommend building your own wheels. There is nothing more absorbing than tweaking with a spoke key and getting your new wheel as true as possible. It’s very relaxing as your mind is so focused. I wish I’d learnt many years ago.
Building your own wheels is definitely satisfying!
My 1st wheel was a 36h and it took me 8 hours!
Congratulations on producing this video, it certainly helped a lot, for many who had doubts about assembling wheels, one of the most complete videos I've ever seen, very Top.
Great video. I am about to build my first wheelset and will certainly watch you video over and over again until I have a good set!
Thanks Bernd! Im sure you will get it right the first go! Feel free to reach out with any questions along the way.
Man, awesome video thanks so much. Extremely helpful for sure. I've been building wheels for a while totally self learned, but missing some key tips that have costed me endless hours in the long run (years of wheel building lol)
These few extra details I know will give that extra confidence before sending a wheel off. Thanks so much.!
Happy to hear it was helpful! There are definitely a ton of little tricks that can make wheel building easier that just take building a bunch of wheels to really get down. Thanks for the kind words!
Hey Chris, great video! I like your techniques and definitely plan to incorporate some of them in my next wheel build. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you yet, but next time I'm in COS I'm going to look you up. Thanks for putting out this content.
Thanks, I definitely look forward to that!
Chris, very nicely explained and demonstrated. Quality laced wheels take a balance of knowledge, experience, and meticulous checking and rechecking. You show all these qualities with a pure spirit of genuine pride in workmanship. No ego or attitude, just confidence, and love of what you do! Thank you!
Thank you, I appreciate it George!
for the last 10 yrs, ive been a normal joe who has tried to work on his bike at home. Simple stuff like flats, swapping handlebars and pedals. i soon began 'frankenstein'ing different junk bikes together to makesimple and operational machines, for friends or fun. usually single speeds on full cassettes, without derailleurs... large, awkward brakes, but safe.
ive been lucky enough to start working at a LBS for the past year. i started by fixing flats and welcoming customers, sweeping etc..
i am now a full time mechanic, still very novice, but learning ALL the time from the awesome team at the shop.
THIS VIDEO has been so clear, concise, and extremely well done for a one man shoot! (*round of applause*)
i folded the rear wheel of the newest and coolest bike ive ever owned.. an old cannondale 2x7spd.. long way from a fixed gear to single spd flip flop hub! but i am now faced with my first wheel build...
if you read all of this, thank you! but all to say, because of your video, i am now CONFIDENT to tackle the challenge ahead of me, and i thank you for the knowledge to help along the way. i look forward to what else i can learn on your channel! Thank You Sir!
Very cool Ben! I got my start pretty similar to you, making less than ideal equipment work well is a great way to build problem solving and mechanical skills.
I'm glad you are in a great spot for growth and enjoying the process of learning and building your skills. A desire to learn new things will do wonders for you.
Thanks for the kind words and reach out if you ever have any questions!
I have learned SOOOOO much from this single video. The senior tech just left the job, so I basically got forcefully promoted lol. I had most of the bike maintrenence in my pinky, but haven't had the chance to build a wheel from zero, until few days ago. It went great and Parktool tutorial helped a lot, but now after watching your video I realised how much could be improved. You genuinely made me want to build more wheels. Thank you
Happy it was helpful! Reach out at any point if you have any questions on the process. Glad you are getting a chance to build some wheels!
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Hi, sorry to take up your time. I'm planning to build a sturdier wheel as I realized how much I'm beating on the stock one. Topic on Sheldonbrown helped me a lot to understand some things, but I'm still not sure, therefore I need expert opinion as resourses on the web are suprsingly scarse on this topic. Basically the patient is a Nukeproof hardtail so the rear wheel takes quite a beating and I already partially folded the rim in two places. I'm planning to throw DTSwiss FR541 rim on it (go big, or go home), but I have issue on which spokes to use. Do I just throw 2mm plain gauge, or should I go with 2.0/1.8/2.0 double butted ones. Should I even consider single butted ones? The rim already comes with 2mm nipples, but if a plain 1.8mm spoke would be better then I will just buy new ones, tho I would prefer to keep the provided ones. Also what spoke tension should I get them to as I cannot find any recommended amount on dtswiss site. I'm not sure if the usuall 100-120 kgf applies to a double butted spokes. Thank you for any help.
@@slavnyan1152 No worries at all! I personally like double butted 2/1.8/2 spokes as the thin section in the middle helps them absorb forces a bit better while keeping more material at the elbow and spoke nipple.
Great job Chris! Thanks for sharing
Thanks man!
A real Artisan, every gesture is beautiful and mastered. Wow
Thank you!
Thank you. Appreciate you sharing your skill and knowledge.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks Chris for a simple tutorial on building wheels, I will try to follow your technique 👍👍
Happy it was helpful!
terrific video - thanks so much Chris!!
Thanks Adam!
Nice guide Chris… helped a lot with my wheel build. Thanks.
Happy it helped!
A lot of finer details here which I missed building my first wheel. This is something I'll reference back to when I do when I build the next set.
Thanks Chris. 👍
Happy to help! Wheel building is definitely a game of nuance. Reach out at any point if you have questions.
I am not in your league by any means, but I now do a lot more tension releasing (spoke squeezing) than before and you are right, it makes a difference. Nice video, thanks for the free tips.
My pleasure and happy to help! For what its worth, if you take your time and get the details right, your first ever wheel build can be the same quality as someone who has done it for years. Those of us with more experience will just get the same level build finished up quicker.
Thank you kindly!
Very good video and lots of useful information.
Awesome! Glad it was helpful!
Wonderful video, thank you!
Thank you!
Outstanding advice, thank you for sharing 🙂👍
Thanks for watching!
Thank you, very helpful
Thanks for watching!
8:30 love the guitar reference, I thought I was the only one trueing by the ear like a pro. Great instructions!
Thanks! I love that trick, it makes balancing spoke tensions much faster although took a little bit of time before I was good at noticing the tone differences as I don't have a great ear.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC It takes a bit time. The only thing worth noting for the audience is that tone difference should be immanent between DS and NDS if the lacing is 1:1; the NDS should be at lower tensions. More like a bonk than a ding
I might try this.
Most detailed video regarding wheel building so far. :)
Quick question though, have you tried pairing 36H hubs to a 34 or 32H rim? If so, would you recommend it?
Thanks Greg! I know people who have tried that and had decent luck but I personally have never tried it. Its probably something I would do for personal builds but be hesitant to do for paying customers.
So I have a channel too and thought I knew how to build a wheel until I watched this video lol you're a bad ass sir! I want to send you my hubs and hoops and have you build up my new wheels I am looking for carbon hoops right now
Thanks man! Just checked out your channel, looks like you are in Knoxville!? I lived there about 10 years ago and my first bike shop job was at Harpers.
Such a good video !
If that would have been a bmx wheel (20", 3 cross) Would you put an emphasis on something else/ pass on anything else??
Thank you! For BMX you want to follow the same theories although some spoke tension gauges can't fit into 20" wheels so you need to go more by feel if that's the case for you, other than that you build them like anything else.
Thank really enjoyed the video. Would be interested in knowing where you get your calibration guage from?
Thanks! This is the calibration gauge I use and really like as you can swap to different style spokes easily - www.shiftbicycle.com/new-products/fouk63jscwzvhx6skog7ae70q07urt
Yeap, that's pretty much like I used to build wheels professionally ... Until my hands couldn't take it anymore. Squeezing pairs of spokes did most of the damage I guess.
Only one little difference, if I need to add some tension to an area with 4 spokes, 2 on each side. I plug the spokes and judge the overal tone on that particular side. It might be the case that only one spoke needs tensioning. I don't know if I explained that well.
Another case might be that the rim touches the arm over the length of 4 spokes. The two in the middle get say half a turn and the two on the edges get only a quarter turn. That technique is particularly useful when checking the roundess of the wheel.
When I'm happy with the final tension and truenes of the wheel, I place the wheel so one side of the hub rest on a wooden block and press down with my arms on the 15 to 3 more or less, all the way around. Turn the wheel over and do the same.
Re check / adjust lateral and roundness ....and that's it.
One thing to bear in mind, rims do have imperfections, you would never get a wheel with all the spokes at the same tension and true.
Pretty good video, one of the best I've seen.
Hey Chris....great video!! Question concerning spoke tension....I work on predominantly older bikes and you can't find any information concerning tension specs for the rim...is there a certain amount of tension you should be aiming for? Thanks for any information you can provide! Keep up the great videos!!
Thanks Jim! Most older rims don't like super high tensions so I usually aim for around 100kgf with lighter gauge spokes if I can't find any specs on the rim. Thanks for the support!
Excellent communication Chris btw. VIdeo was great to watch
Could you tell us the order/sequence of the adjustments that you make?
Like: 1.Tension 2.True 3.Dish 4.Up+down 5. Destress 6.True again 7.Destress
Thanks! Its sorta checking everything all the time. I bring them to moderate tension (60ish kgf), stress relive, balance tension, true, add tension, check dish, keep bringing up tension and stress relieving and correcting for dish until things stay stable after stress relieving. Usually its 3-4 rounds of stress relieving.
I like your teaching skills and knowledge a lot...my "new go to" in search of bike information. As a "potential wheel builder", what is the best guideline for deciding to buy a spoke cutting/threading machine? I currently buy "pre-cut" for builds and use my Hozan for replacements.
Sorry I missed your comment earlier! I think it mostly comes down to preferences. I just wrote an article about the Phil Wood spoke cutter and went into some of the differences from the Morizumi too if you are still researching. Here it is: bikemechanicnews.com/phil-wood-spoke-machine-review/
Thanks for mentioning how true the wheel should be laterally and vertically.
I seem to have been overdoing it with aiming for ±0.05mm lateral and ±0.15 vertically
I have gotten fairly good tightness tolerances but the pair of spokes right at the seam is about 10% tighter then any other spokes
Happy you found it helpful! I learned that I will drive myself crazy if I have dial indicators on my stand so have started going off the theory that if I can't see movement with my bare eyes then it is more than true enough. I definitely would prioritize balanced tension over "perfect" true anyways.
Thankfully 10% variance isn't bad but if you can get it closer to 5% while still keeping things true/round that would be better than chasing super small changes in true.
Thanks for watching!
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thank you for the response, I agree 0.01mm dial gages seem to be more of a distraction then anything else, If I was doing wheel building pofesional I would likely get a pair of 0.1mm scale Dial gauges like this one www.monotaro.sg/g/1000004224.html
0.1mm between each mark and a rotation is 10mm instead of 1mm allot less exact but most likely an exactness that would be much more appropriate for wheel building :-D
I retensioned the back wheel I am working on right now and got the drive side to all be 23.5 on the park tool so right under the limit of 1400nm on the rims, on the braking side I got 11 of the spokes to 18 and the remaining 5 to 18.5 so only around 800nm while still keeping it within -.2mm to +0.3mm from true lateral and within only 0.4mm vertical movement.
While I would have liked to tension up the disk brake side much more as I did manage to pull a wheel significantly out of true by breaking really hard once I think that will have too do, at least for now.
@@aggese That should make for a great build! On the dial indicators that could be a nice change for sure!
fantastic
Thank you!
Thanks for a great video! What spokes would you recommend for a set of enduro wheels?
Thanks! My default for durable wheels is Wheelsmith DB14 spokes but any quality 14/15/14 spoke should work well.
can you list all the tools needit thanks that you recommend
Can you explain please why u use Allen key thru axle to fix on truing stand? Is it not moving when you adjusting spokes? Video is great..... keep going 👍
Thanks! I just use that because its about the size of a 12mm thru axle, no other reason beyond that. An old axle, a dowel or anything that fits would work just as well. They also make adapters but this was already in the shop and works just as well.
gotta get apples and cake on the counter at my shop- jelly. would love to come build wheels with you at some point Ethan B
Thanks! My business partner was trying to start a small cafe inside the shop when I filmed this video. It was cool but ended up being more work than it was worth for us.
Great video and just the professional technique I needed to improve my wheel building skills.
I have a dumb question, do the right/left spoke tensions end up the same when finished? Thank you
Apologies for the slow reply here. Not a dumb question at all! If the wheel is dished symmetrically, typically just rim brake front wheels and track/single speed wheels, then the tensions between sides will be the same. Most wheels though will have lower tensions on the non drive side rear or driveside front though so you will take your tension measurement from the highest side.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC thanks for getting back to me. One key learning you teach for me is the repeated de-tensioning until the reading stops dropping.
@@wallyworld6249 My pleasure and thank you! That step goes a long way in helping the wheel stay stable after building. Its simple but makes a huge difference for sure.
This video is amazing! This helps a lot!😁 I am learning how to build wheels and I'm getting pretty good in it as well, so I want to build my own roadbike wheels now. I do have a question though. I'm doing a lot of research for it and I came up with this: I picked DT Swiss 350 non-disc hubs (J-bend) and DT Swiss RR 411 28'' Rim front 28H and the asymmetric 411 rear 28H. I want a 1 over 3 spokespattern in the rear and a 1 over 2 or 1 over 1 spokespattern in the front (I still need to think about what would be better). But I'm not sure what brand I need to choose for the spokes, so I was wondering what the difference is between Sapim Laser and DT Swiss Revolution. They are both double butted, 1.5mm in the middel and very light. What would you recommend and will this be a good wheelbuild that I have in mind?
Glad it helped! That should make for a nice build. I personally prefer DT to Sapim as I have seen some inconsistency issues in spoke quality with Sapim. Typically they are very good but I have had a couple builds with their spokes that broke multiple spokes within a few months but a rebuild with different spokes made the issue go away entirely
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thank you! And one last question. Which nipple of DT do you recommend for this build?
@@LizanneSilvertant I am a big fan of traditional brass nipples. I am not a fan of most locking nipples personally.
As informative as always from Chris,what a pro. Chris can I ask, do you have any prefernece for make of spoke key and which are best ergonomically for daily use and which will last longest? I'm asking as a cycle mechanic. Thanks for your videos.
Thanks Ben! I am actually very picky about spoke keys. When I was doing production building, my hands were always trashed until I found the DT spoke key. Once I got that I was able to build 12hrs a day without too much discomfort. I do find it a bit harder to be fast with the DT so I typically use the Park loop wrenches to get it roughly halfway up in tension then I switch to the DT. That system works really well for me.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC many thanks for your detailed response Chris, I trust your opinion. And I know what I’m treating myself to this Xmas! Regards, Ben
@@ChrisMurrayEWC many thanks for your detailed response Chris, I trust your opinion. And I know what I’m treating myself to this Xmas! Regards, Ben
@@bendench5662 you won't regret it! Thanks man!
Great video! Is it normal to scratch (a little bit) the rims in the process?
Thanks! Scratching the rim is avoidable and not ideal but its also not uncommon either. To avoid scratching the rim you will have to bend the spoke a bit while lacing to keep from scratching things up.
Have any experience with ex3 wheels? Do they work best with lower tension like the mk series? Also thanks very helpful video
Thank you! The ex3 rims build up to normal tensions much better. I much prefer the ex3 to the mk3.
I wish searching was possible on youtube comments because it must have been asked before. You said you are tightening the spokes for low spots and loosen them for high spots. Isn't that supposed to be the other way around?
Thanks for making this video Chris!
Can you tell me what kind of lube are you using for the nipple before tensioning?
Cheers
Thanks for watching! I use Triflow personally but any light oil should work just fine for between the spoke nipple and rim. On the spoke threads I use Wheelsmith Spoke Prep, let that dry and then add anti seize over the top of that.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC does the oil not affect the carbon? And are there any kind of lube's that are an absolute no no?
@@gvltv5562 carbon epoxies are pretty stable once cured so there shouldn't be anything you would want to use that is a risk. In thousands of wheels Ive never had a carbon rim pull a spoke nipple through the rim and I mostly use Triflow but have used Phil Wood oil, Dumonde tech and a couple different greases.
Chris, is that a calibration gauge, yellow meter at the back of the stand? If yes, did you built it or it is available for purchase?
Good eye! That is a calibration gauge, I bought it from www.shiftbicycle.com/ but I think they quit making them. If you can get your hands on one they work great though!
Great video thank you. What calibration gauge do use on your Park tensiometer?
Thank you! I use one made by Shift Bicycle that seems to work really well.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Do you have a link to them?
@@actonblue2012 I no longer see it on their website but this is the place I got it from if you want to reach out to them. www.shiftbicycle.com/ Hopefully they can still offer them as it works really well.
Hey Chris, very nice video! The holy driver is only for rims up to 45mm (so says problem solvers). Do you know a tool which will be good for rims for al heights?
Thanks! I've not seen one yet that fits deeper rims but I have drawn up a design for one but I am waiting to hear back from a distributor if they want to buy them before I do a production run.
Sounds great, could you keep me up to date on the production? I would be interested in one of those!
@@MennoVES will do! I will likely end up posting a video about it when the time comes and if it goes like I hope they will be available both through my website and through BTI if you are set up with a dealer there.
Thanks for shedding a whole lotta light on what was to me an arcane and terrifying right of passage. The last time I attempted to true a wheel was 35 years ago on my beat up bmx... it ended badly. This year I've been rekindling my passion for all things bike, and this chip i carried on my shoulder about truing, and by extension, wheel building, needed to be dissolved. My skills are coming together, my shop is being bootstrapped, and I need to find my niche in my LBS community so as not to step on the toes of some people I respect. Any advice on that?
Happy to hear it man. My first go at building wheels was trying to practice with already damaged parts and that turned me off on it for a while too until I realized a lot of my struggles initially were because of the parts I tried to use.
As far as not stepping on toes, friendly competition is always a good thing, there are plenty of people that are technically competition to me but we still get along well because of mutual respect. We try to show we are the best at what we do by highlighting our craftsmanship instead of trying to talk negative about the others. The golden rule of "dont be a d**ck" will get you surprisingly far.
Chris Murray You give a lot of great tips that i hadn’t seen in other videos. i’ve played guitar for 30+ years, so it really helped to think of spokes like guitar strings; not just the plucking/sound, but also releasing the tension, which is something you need to do every time you put new strings on. A couple other things reminded me of tuning a guitar. So yeah, great tips!
Respect and the golden rule, absolutely. i needed a brake boss welded on recently and called one shop, they didn’t do welding/brazing but referred me to another shop that did. I really respected that. I’m still learning about everything, maintenance side, business side, community side; and hope i always maintain that attitude of consistently learning. That was a great lesson on interaction between shops.
Jason West Bro, I used to lace and tension wheels by ear, and all I can say is get yourself the tension meter. You can buy them for $20 on amazon. You can get by without a truing stand or a dish tool. I’m not sure if your talking about starting your own business. What I think about this is, price of prebuilts have come down a lot. The days of people buying carbon rims from China and having them laced by a local or online builder have declined. Truing can be quick and easy or it could be long and slow. Lacing even more so. Some rims require washers and are super hard to lace up.
@@jasonwest3283 thanks man! If you have a good ear that makes balancing tension by plucking spokes super easy. I personally do not have a great ear and it took me a while to notice small tone differences. Like Ankit J mentions below, a tension meter is definitely a good call to figure out final tension though. I always balance by ear but check final tension value with a meter.
Great advice gents! I have the tension meter all ready to go, but i do like the idea of getting in close with plucking; shamelessly, i have a golden ear so i think i can not only get in the ballpark, but also the dugout fairly quickly. With tuning instruments, you tune one string and it will change the tension/tune on the other strings, so you have to run through a few times before you get to the sweet sound. I can see where spokes would be the same. But yeah, combine (methods) and conquer!
Since i am doing a lot ot vintage rebuilds, customs, conversions, I will be dealing with a lot of vintage steel rims ... does the tension meter charts have any data on these old rims? If not, am i going to need to experiment to find that high tension sweet spot? Any advice on old steel rims guys?
I'm thinking that the amount of times you detension might be helping to get your tension within 5% variance. I struggle to get better than 10%. How much does rim quality help with maintaining even tension and trueness vs the process? Does carbon lead to better builds than aluminum you think?
While I think carbon is easier to build close to "perfect" as tolerances are typically better, the rims are so stiff that you can also get away with very uneven tension and still have a round and true wheel. Stress relieving does seem to balance things out a small bit but honestly, if you are at 10% variance and stress relieved well you will never have an issue with the spoke structure.
Some rims are definitely better than others in that regard but one thing I see often is every other spoke being high then low. If that is how yours is looking, you can usually add an 1/8 to 1/4 turn to tighten the lower spoke and the same but loosening the neighboring tight spoke. This usually does a great job balancing tension without hurting true. If the tensions are not in a consistent pattern like that but you are dished, round and true and balance is within 10% I really wouldn't worry too much about that as not all rims will let you get much better than that.
Hope this helps!
You make it look so easy.
What is your view on a 24 vs 28 hole rear carbon 50mm wheel for 85kg rider ? You think there is a need to go 28 hole?
Secondly on the front 20 vs 24 hole
Thanx
Thanks! It definitely helps that I have built thousands of wheels. My first few definitely didn't go so smooth!
For spoke count for an 85kg rider, either would be plenty durable if built well but if they are a powerful sprinter or crit racer they may prefer the extra stiffness from 28 hole, 24 hole on a 50mm rim should still be plenty stiff for most riders though.
Similar applies to the front, if they are super powerful and sprinty I would lean towards 24 hole but 20 hole should still be sufficient for most riders.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC thanx so much for the time to respond to my question. Much appreciated
@@zaahierstanley955 my pleasure!
Some tires de-tension a wheel significantly in my experience. Do you take this into consideration when tensioning a wheel or not?
Some definitely lose a fair bit of tension when you mount a tire but I always set tension without a tire. That is another reason why I like setting spoke tension near the max rating for most rims. Even with tension loss from the tire if you stress relieve well and start near the high side of tensions you shouldn’t have a problem.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thanks. That's mostly what we've been doing, but I always wonder how others approach this.
Thanks! I definitely have been tempted to adjust for it but I decided against it as the wheels I built were doing great without the compensation for it so I didn’t want to change what was working.
Hello :) I recently purchased a set of Arc MT006 hubs, 100/135 QR. I'm currently preparing for a wheel and need to figure out the correct spoke lengths. I'm using the WTB KOM light i25 rims with an ERD of 604mm. (Rim weight: 455g) I've been told that you should add about 3mm to the rim ERD to account for the spoke nipples, which =707. Is that a correct practice? How much should I add to the rim to account for the nipple? The technical diagram available for the Arc MT006 is a bit confusing, and I can't seem to figure out what the correct flange circle diameter is. The measurements I input where. Front hub: 32H, lacing 3x, weight:160g Width 100mm. PCD: 58/45, Nut to Flange: 28.1/ 13.7, Nut to center: 21/36.3.
Rear hub: 32H, lacing 3x, weight 240g, width 135mm, PCD: 58/44, nut to Flange: 31.57/48.15, Flange to centre: 36/20. The hub uses 14G spokes. Recommended nipple length is 12mm? When using the DT Swiss calculator the total recommended spoke lengths come out at, Front (L/R): 293mm/294mm. Rear (L/R): 294mm/295mm. Could you possibly tell me if I have gone about the calculation correctly?
If the spoke is turning instead of the nipple, do you take a pair of pliers and hold spoke spoke? Or how do you prevent the spoke from turning if you feel that it is in fact turning instead of the nipple?
If you prep the spoke properly there shouldn't be much wind up but some lubricants are better than others there and super thin spokes like DT Revs are prone to wind up regardless of what you do.
If it is a round spoke, you can use pliers to hold it but make sure there are no sharp edges that could gouge the spoke. If it is a bladed spoke, a bladed spoke holder is best, my favorite there is the DT one. Another tool that works well is this one from Unior, it wont damage the spoke and gives you more leverage than standard pliers. It is listed for straight pull spokes but can work equally well on j bend if needed. uniorusa.com/products/straight-pull-spoke-pliers-1753-2b-us
Ultimately though, if you are getting wind up on 1.7mm or thicker round spokes I would start by looking at what you are using to lubricate spoke threads.
Hope this helps!
Hi. Home bike mechanic here. Great video! Simple question...If the rim has alternating left/right offset spoke holes, do you place the spoke in the left hole to the left flange or right flange? Also, do you build according to Shimano leading/trailing spoke flange relationship (inner/outer flange position for drive vs brake side)? I noticed many wheel manufacturers don't lace according to Shimano so maybe it's not necessary. Thank you.
Thanks! If the rim has alternating holes, you ALMOST always put the spoke in the hole closest to the flange. The BMX world specifically had some exceptions to this as they were trying to get larger bracing angles. You can usually tell pretty quick if its not right though as the spoke will have a sharp bend at the nipple if you laced it wrong.
Personally I don't think leading/trailing spoke actually matters. To some people they argue it like religion but in practice it really doesn't make any difference. Even talking with engineers that have high end testing equipment, they were not able to measure a real difference between the two styles. If lacing a used hub, I do try to match the previous lacing pattern though.
Hope this helps!
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Great info! I guess it makes sense to have the spoke exit at the proper angle to the hub and not cross the center line unless the rim is made specifically for that purpose.
@@mtbbiker6401 Yep!
Do you have a video suggestion in hub selection? i am changing from rim brakes to disc and just re-lacing my rims into the new hubs. i am not sure what measurements are critical in the choosing of a hub: overall width, distance between spoke flange, flange length, etc, etc. any info would be greatly appreciated.
The only video I have is talking about different hub brands rather than what you need to select the right one for your build. I might need to work on that idea over the winter.
Short version is you need to match axle spacings, freehub driver and make sure the spoke count matches whatever rims you have.
The other dimensions theoretically will make a difference in how a wheel performs but I've never met anyone that could actually tell a difference in ride quality based on different hub flange dimensions.
Hope this helps!
This is that hub video if interested. ua-cam.com/video/Sjz9N7bsO1U/v-deo.html
@@ChrisMurrayEWC thanks, I will check it out.
@@1LeggedAdventures thank you!
I have an aluminum rim tht is crack around d shell would like to knw can it be fix???m
Unfortunately once a rim starts to crack there is not much you can do other than replace it. Thankfully you can usually run it for a while before it completely fails but I would be very cautious with that.
Wheel building is basically dark lost art black magic thing for me, there's no way I'm able to do that myself
You would be surprised, it's not as difficult as it looks but it definitely takes patience, especially while starting as your first wheel build can usually take 3+ hours while you figure things out.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC it's your tensioning experience which is the art .... the lacing is a practical assignment but tensioning is something gained from skill and experience.. you make it look easy
@Craig DiCiancia only art is an art! I fully agree though, there is nothing mythical about tensioning a wheel. It just takes attention to detail and a bit of research at first.
@@Wroe thanks but it is far from art! It's all relatively basic principles but the experience is what makes it seem to go so easily. I think anyone who has a desire to learn can build a great wheel and the more you do it, the more efficient you become. Thanks again!
I plan to restore my old bike. Started doing research. Just realized that rimes aren’t really symmetrical with the hub lol
That's surprisingly common unfortunately. Thankfully its a pretty quick and easy fix!
Great video, Chris!
How long does it take you to build a wheel? And how long should a first timer give to construction?
Thanks!
Thanks Jamie! Speed to build has varied depending on what I am doing. My first build took probably 3+ hours, when I was doing production building I could build a wheel in about 15 mins without rushing too much but not that I spend most of my time doing custom builds it usually is in the 30-45 min range. Overall though, I wouldn't worry about speed and maybe not have a clock too close by for your first build and just focus on nailing the details. The speed will come in time but it usually takes a lot of wheels to get really quick at it without hurting quality.
What is the reason for twisting the hub clockwise and not anti-clockwise?
To properly line the wider gap in the spokes with the valve along with matching the way most rims are drilled. There are exceptions here where you will go counter clockwise but nearly every rim I have built goes this direction.
Hi. What are your thoughts on using 29" i30 asymmetrical rims for rear 142mm J-bend MTB hub? From what I've been reading, this will actually help to better triangulate the spokes and tension of the left/right spokes. Maybe go from 65/100% to 77/100% tension distribution by using 2.5mm offset. At first I didn't think asymmetrical rims were designed for 142mm, but the more I read it seems asymmetrical rims actually give you more of a "boost" effect when using 142mm hubs. Just wondering your thoughts of symmetrical vs asymmetrical rims for 142mm hubs in general. Also wondering if I should only consider 32 spokes vs 28 spokes for 29" i30 i.e. DT Swiss XM481 rim. My general thinking is that 32 spokes would be better for a 29" 142 spacing vs. 28 spokes or maybe it won't make much difference and I can shave some weight by going 28. This rear wheel would be for a Specialized Enduro 155mm rear travel bike so trail to AM usage, nothing downhill. Thanks.
Asymmetric rims absolutely make sense on paper but in practice I feel they are fixing an issue that doesn't really exist in a well built wheel.
Asymmetric rims are not at all bad and some of my favorite carbon rims are Asymmetric but with aluminum rims, I much prefer most symmetrical rims. That is mostly due to the rims ability to resist dents more than anything though and coincidently, the best rims I have found there are symmetrical.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thanks for your reply. It seems the trend is asymmetrical rims and it's getting harder to find symmetric rims. I'm eyeing DT Swiss XM481 or EX511 unless there is something better in the same price range.
@@mtbbiker6401 those are actually a couple of my favorites! Others I really like are the Spank 350 / 359 in similar styles and dimensions. I slightly prefer the DT to the Spanks but the Spanks are a little less expensive.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thanks for the advice! I really appreciate your input. I will take a look at the Spanks. I was also leaning toward Race Face Arc HD but those are asymmetric and I can't determine whether they are sleeved or welded. RF Customer Service told me they were sleeved, not welded. I know the XM481 and EX511 are welded. Will research the Spanks as well. I currently have DT E1700 30mm in 27.5". They are a few years old with the 18T ratchet but now need 29" for a new frame build. Thanks again!
@@mtbbiker6401 Arcs are not bad rims but I do think they are a bit more prone to denting than Spank or DT. Personally I don't worry too much about how they are joined, especially on disc wheels as either welded, pinned or sleeved can work well assuming their joining method was done properly. Happy to help!
So if I understand right. First you do one turn on drive side first and then 3 turns on both sides?
That's just generally what works well for most of what I build but as long as you are consistent, the specifics on how many you start with are not super critical
@@ChrisMurrayEWC thanks for your help
@@Rocky-hw9dv Any time!
The first time I diy built my own wheel i brought a lot with me, spoke wrench, screw driver, spoke,hub,rims,oil, and extras like phone to check youtube if you're doin it right, lunch and undo button for when you screwed up lacing or realized you skipped a spoke only after you've got a single spoke in your hand remaining and a spoke hole way farther than that spoke could reach.🤣
Ha! The first few wheels are always an adventure!
Definitely!👍
what is the name to the orange tool for calibrer the tensiometer. thank you
It is made by www.shiftbicycle.com/ but unfortunately I no longer see it on their website. I really like it though.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC gracias, soy español sorry, i thing is, super important for adjust the calibrador de tensiometer
@@gerardocollpons1881 agreed. Gracias!
What spoke size you can recommend for WTB i25 XC/Trail wheel set?
Spoke length varies a lot and is best to measure yourself. I have another video on how to do that if needed. If you are more curious about spoke type, my default for the majority of my builds is any quality double butted spoke like the Wheelsmith DB14. Hope this helps!
Hi@@ChrisMurrayEWC I appreciate your time for responding back to my question. I'm curious about which spoke thickness (1.6mm, 1.7mm or 1.8mm) should I use to build an XC/Trail wheelset, since there's a range of spoke thickness available in the market. Thanks
@@bernerteorica6929 happy to help! My default for nearly all my builds is a quality double butted spoke like Wheelsmith DB14's. They are butted at 2/1.7/2 mm so the ends are 2mm and the middle is 1.7. Despite being lighter, I believe these also make a more durable wheel as they are slightly more "elastic" letting them absorb tension spikes/impacts slightly better.
Hi Chris Murray, I really appreciate your help, and thank you for sharing your expertise. Stay safe and stay healthy.
@@bernerteorica6929 Thank you for the support! Hope you stay healthy as well!
I am a little confused. The text you cite says that the trailing spokes should run on the inside of the flange but in the video it looks like they run on the outside? What am I getting wrong? Thanks.
Good catch! There is a lot of debate in the bike world over which way to orient those spokes but in reality it very rarely matters and the engineers I know who have properly tested it with proper equipment could not find any difference in durability. I personally lace with heads in for the trailing spokes but heads out works great too. The one exception on where I get picky is if a hub was previously laced. If it has been laced before you should try to match the way it was laced previously.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Ah, thank's a lot for your quick answer and especially the detail about the used hub, because this is exactly my case. Didn't want to open a big discussion, I just got confused over it. Thank's for the explanation though!
@@markusschmid1145 my pleasure! With how aggressively some people discuss it, its easy to think it matters more than it does but thankfully both options work quite well. Happy building!
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Just recognizing that I am not fond of building wheels at all. My rear wheel is/was laced with trailing spokes on the drive side running inside of the flange and on the non-drive side running outside of the lange. (Hope Pro 4 + DT Swiss EX511) Is that common? As you mentioned, I should lace it the same way again; how am I best doing that? Thanks!
@@markusschmid1145 That is one of the common ways to do that and it works completely fine. You are best just to look at the hub and when you drop the spokes through the flange to make sure they are heading the same direction as initially laced. Wheel building can definitely be tedious!
Hello, I have a pair of Race Face AR24 wheels and I would like to know what is the ideal spoke tension for this wheel, I did not find this information on the website,
And if it is not going to bother you a lot, could you explain to me for example on the rear wheel how to work the tension on the side of the cassette and the side of the brake disc ?? and in the front how would the tension on the side of the disc and on the other side ??
Please, if you can help me, I thank you very much, here where I live I do not find mechanics who do this service efficiently, I would like to do it on my own at home, I just need these guidelines, thank you very much.
Happy to help! I have always built those wheels to 110-120 kgf with good results.
You will set the tension on the rear driveside and front brake side, the lower tension side will always just be dependent on hub geometry so if the higher sides spoke tension is at your target and the wheel is properly dished, the lower tension side is as good as it can get.
Hope this helps!
@@ChrisMurrayEWC
Thank you very much Chris, I really admire your work, I believe it is one of the most difficult and still one of the most important on a bike, thanks for your help.
I will then work with a focus on the almost maximum tension of 110-120 kgf on the sides where the tension will be highest. And as for the lower tension side, how much percent should I decrease in order to have a good dished wheel ??
Thanks
Thanks! To get dishing right you just use a dish gauge and pull it over until the high side tension is where you want it and the wheel is dished. The low side tensions will always vary so you can’t dish by tension.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC Thank you very much for your attention Chris, I will do as you instructed. Once the tension on the high side is good I will use the dish gauge to bring the low side to the correct tension.
Here in Brazil we call this gauge as a wheel umbrella meter. :D
Very cool, I did not know that!
How long does it take for a wheel?
Matt B it varies. Taking my time and cutting spokes it’s about 45min per wheel. When I was doing production builds I was consistently 20ish mins per wheel without rushing but that was always building the same thing. For your first ever build, plan on a few hours at least. The first few always take a long time.
Why don’t they make 700c touring wheels with wider rims. I have tk540 rims (18.6mm internal), but I want cliffhangers (25mm). I am heavy and so is my gear when on tour. My “factory” rims cracked on the drive side at several spoke holes.
It seems to me that the wider rim would handle more weight.
I loved Chris in Iowans vids.
Wider doesn't always mean stronger but the Cliffhangers are definitely super strong rims! I have used those on a lot of touring builds with great luck. It's definitely my go to touring rim these days.
Why cant the Stan MK3 series rims handle higher spoke tension? Are they bad rims?
Personally I think they pushed the limits a bit too far with going wide/light. Ive seen a bunch of them fail even being built exactly to spec. To be fair, it is usually riders who are doing huge miles or are fairly hard on gear so most riders will still probably be fine with Stan's rims. I just feel there are better options out there for the money.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC what you think about spank vibrocore rims and wheels ?
@@MartinTeerly I love Spank rims! I think they work well for the majority of riders. Their stock complete builds are not bad but they are not finished as well as a quality hand built wheel.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC spank claims that their wheels are hand build class a
@@MartinTeerly Their builds are not bad but I wouldn't call them class a despite what their marketing says as I have had to replace numerous broken spokes on their factory builds for riders. To be fair, these riders are strong that are breaking spokes but they are not doing anything that would justify spoke breakage. I know its just anecdotal but if I have seen a fair bit of them through my small shop I am sure there are plenty more with similar issues. Hope this doesn't come across as bashing Spank as I really do like their company and most of their products but I see problems first hand with nearly every production build out there other than maybe Zipp.
how do i unbend a rim after a small accident ??
You basically follow the same truing steps from this video on building new wheels but sometimes if the rim is badly bent it can not be fixed or to fix it you have to smack it on the ground to bend it back enough to allow adjusting spoke tension to be enough to pull it true again.
Nothing says pro like a spoke wrench where the paint has come off.
4:00 And how you can get below 10% variance on the spoke tension, when the best spoke tension meters have measurement error around 10%? It's impossible to measure tension that accurately in the first place... The only thing that you can measure very accurately is how true the wheel is.
Accuracy and consistency are not the same thing. Most gauges are consistent enough to be able to reliably give you variance numbers even if absolute numbers are off but we make a tool that lets you calibrate your gauge and they can absolutely get within 10% if calibrated to the specific spoke you are building with.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC But that's not how it works.
- Even the best spokes have thickness variation of at least 5%. Get a micrometer and see for yourself.
- Than if you have two crossing spokes, one is bent inwards, the other is bent outwards. Try and calibrate on a bent spoke.
- And the spoke stiffness is not the same over it's length - it's stiffer at the ends. Go and calibrate in different places.
So, even if you have a 0.1% error tension meter, than you still have 10% error because of the nature of the measurement. Thus, even if you have 0% variance, it's still over a 10% of a measurement error.
On the absolute value you have the problem, that the tension meter ads tension to the spoke when it's applied to it. The value of this added tension depends on the stiffness of the whole wheel. Your calibration stand can not have the same stiffness. And this added is also 5-10%.
Than truing the wheel to a crazy accuracy is also a nonsense. The rim itself is not that dimensionally accurate to begin with. And there are crazy people that go to 0.01 mm and beyond...
@@2L40K You are REALLY overthinking this. Since we cut/thread spokes all the time we pretty regularly measure them and the variance isnt enough to make that much of a difference. Beyond that, consistent tensions are absolutely workable to accurate numbers even if the absolute tension is not exactly what is on the gauge.
I also have never advocated for chasing insane accuracy numbers on trueness and even took the dial indicators off our stand for this reason. Balanced tensions will always be the key to a reliable wheel.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC It's not just me, it's Ric Hjertberg - the Wheel Fanatyk, that make the most accurate tension metter, so to speak. The design is done by Jobst Brandt.
"We list the absolute accuracy at +/-10% because it's unrealistic to pretend higher accuracy is possible."
And the problem is not the measurement of a single spoke spoke. The problem is that the measurements of different spokes are not comaparable to an error beter than +/-10%.
Nobody can touch my wheelset besides elevation!
Always happy to take care of your wheels Morgan!
Good god I completely regret trying to rebuild my wheel.
Ha! The first handful of wheels anyone builds are definitely an exercise in patience...
"I built and got wheels for days"
Wrong mate !! Ur building a mtb rear wheel with disc..... the spokes on the disc side are placed incorrect bro. Oh dear lord !!!!
TAMADrumsLover how is it wrong? Ive built wheels like this for thousands of wheels without issue including for test labs of major bike companies and never had a complaint or issue.
@@ChrisMurrayEWC very easy to explaine... first things first: braking power esspecially with MTB genarates much more torque than a humandrivin'torque. If u goto 21:16 of your video u can clearly see the spokes on the disc side is wrong. U want the have the 'outer spokes on a dischub pointing in the pushing direction so when brakes are applied they do their job... in ur case at the disc side the outer spokes are in a pulling postion, but when breaking with a dischub the pushing spokes start working. greeting from Holland bro
not to attack you or something , the rest of the video was really nice to watch
u know im right, right? ;) just simply go check a random mtb brand, check there website ,go for whatever mtb model.... u will see a diffrence on the discside ;) its a simple basic rule mate....ur spoke setup would be perfect for a gearhub setup with rollerbrake or rimbrake
@@TAMADrumsLover There really is no "right" when talking heads in vs out. Ive talked with engineers at major wheel brands who could not even measure a difference in durability with end end testing equipment. People always get hung up on debating heads in vs out but in reality it doesn't make any difference. I've built wheels for some of the most abusive riders in the country, if my way was "wrong" I would have seen a failure by now. I'm really not trying to argue here but in reality it just doesn't make a difference like some people believe.
I’m about to send you my wheels. What’s the address?
Very cool! We are at 720 W Monument St, Suite 200 Colorado Springs, CO 80904. Thanks!
None of this is making sense at least to me I've been trying to lace wheels for five years. some people say start one right from the air valve some people say start two left so which is it there's 800 videos of this s*** and no one's right
I will admit this video did a poor job showing how to lace but I recently did a video specifically on how to lace a wheel. Nearly every rim I have laced starts at the second to the right (clockwise) from the valve. This has been true for thousands of rims but there are definitely exceptions to that. The second from the right absolutely works though. Here is a video better showing that if interested - ua-cam.com/video/YQfwyb4CK0s/v-deo.html
Thanks for watching!
Sorry, but how is this a great video? what’s the point on showing a lacing video if you don’t clearly and slowly show the two most important spokes to start the build. you just rush through the whole thing
My apologies there and I completely agree. At the time of filming I had only made a few videos in my life and had pretty limited equipment plus was working solo so couldn't figure out a way I thought looked good on camera to show lacing which is why I mention pulling up the lacing guide from Sheldon Brown's website. I'll end up doing another video on this subject as I have better equipment and understanding of how to use it. This video is definitely most helpful for tensioning techniques.
I hate these bastard wheels. They ruined my desire to enjoy bike riding. I am a fat and clumsy man and the spokes or the wheel as a whole bend and this destroys the whole bike.
Bad wheels can definitely be frustrating. Constantly breaking wheels is actually what got me into building my own as I was riding a ton of miles and fairly heavy myself. Once I got that figured out I finally quit breaking wheels so there is definitely hope out there!
no comment🤨