This game makes a lot of sense actually, you just clearly aren't paying enough attention to bother understanding it. Basically, every detail ties up and can e understood with just a little bit of inward thought in regard to the timeline but u don't even want to try to because of your blind love for BioShock 1. It's so sad that you'll miss out on understanding a beautiful game because of it.
@@zoegordon9364 The sole fact another booker exists after the original's drowning is a plothole at best and renders the original booker's sacrifice meaningless at worst. And elizabeth being dumb and violent enough to leave her perfect life in Paris behind just to kill him and yell at him is character assassination and a very stupid excuse to tie infinite's characters to Rapture. Which is also very funny, since the game's desperate attempt to reconnect with the original Bioshock is like recognizing that game is much better and much more interesting than infinite, yet you claim i'm the one with blind love.
and you're wrong that rapture is 50's styled with design of base Infinite levels rapture is supposed to be stuck in 20's art-deco style aaaaaand by the time the dlc starts rapture is already supposed to be full of spliced up morons and leaking everywhere. big daddies are the wrong series and obligatory big daddy fight makes no sense since they are not bonded with little sisters yet and little sisters vents being connected to actual heating is plain stupid while making atlas in person look nothing like fontaine's picture from OG bioshock who keeps talking about his ACE IN THE HOLE for the love of god he threw that line as a throwaway when jack was taking elevator up... and atlas doesn't know the phrase "would you kindly" for no reason because he knew it all along since jack was conditioned to respond to it as a child this non-existent conflict of realities has no sense
My hatred of BioShock Infinite is so great that knowing Ken Levine hates all the R34 of his key-to-everything Mary Sue daughterfu genuinely makes me, a Mormon, sometimes think about making content to add to that profane pile just to spite him.
My favorite part about Burial at Sea is how pointless it is. It's too different from Rapture's depictions in 1&2 to even possibly take place in that universe/timeline, so it actually has no connection to 1 despite pretending it does. The Jack on the plane of Burial is not the Jack from 1. Booker/Comstock proves this. Infinite universes, infinite Jacks, meaning the whole dlc is pointless since it only effects a singular alternate Rapture. In other words, the DLC can't even justify it's own existence.
The worst part of this DLC is that it wasn't completely bad. Instead, it had all these conflicting qualities pulling me in different directions. The retconning of the base game is terrible and yet the labotomy scene was like a page out of Tarantino. I enjoyed returning to Columbia but only long enough to remember that Columbia shouldn't even exist following Booker's drowning. And I loved the trip down memory lane in Rapture even if it had to bend over backwards to link infinite to Bioshock 1. Jeez what a mess.
What part of a million universes is not clear😭😭 By that logic elizabeth shouldn’t even exist but the whole premise this game is based on is that although in many universes com stock is dead there are a few where he still exists
@@zoegordon9364 But that conflicts with the ending of Infinite. The reason she drowns Booker before the baptism choice is so that there will be no Comstocks, though i still think it's silly because logically that means there'll be no Elizabeth to drown him... God, that game really fell apart once alternate universes were introduced :(
This whole DLC is pretty much little more than Levine and the others torching the franchise and running for it, as the rights to Bioshock were to default to 2K soon after. So yeah, a case of “here’s your franchise now, douchebags”. That, and the lack of nods to Bioshock 2 is due to Levine not being involved in that game’s development, so it’s also a petty middle finger to it via him doing everything he can to not reference it and the like. In other words, it doesn’t count in the overall story, as only Levine’s games are the important canon ones. Yeah, he got a little bit petty didn’t he?
@@shagohad3I can see it that way but I can also use the multiverse plot and say Bioshock 1 happened without Elizabeth’s influence because Bioshock 1 could easily have happened on its own in a different universe and Ken Levine technically allowed Bioshock 2 in his multiverse as another possibility.
Bruh i hate this DLC so much--it basically holds the first game hostage to say "what did you NOT want that game and its happy ending to happen? Because if you don't have Elizabeth intentionally crash this plane kill innocents lives to clear her guilt then that game you love won't happen!" its so dumb. There IS a sight explanation for why the big daddy in BaS part 1 attacks Booker despite the lack of the protector gatherer bond (which according to BS2... they would've already been bonded given Suchong died before Delta and Eleanor were bonded but in BaS Suchong is alive and there are no bonds of any type) There's a sign in Suchong's lab talking about the detachable drill extension that only exists in this DLC, and how the drills fume "angry gas" into the big daddy's making them aggro on sight, so the design was dropped hence why its not in the other games. So the Big Daddy at the end of Part 1 just had ANGRY gas in its system and was just conveniently there to kill Booker and Elizabeth and then wander off without helping Sally because they weren't actually bonded. its SUPER dumb, and you can tell it was just writing back words to try and make the story work b/c why would Sally call for "mister bubbles" without the conditioning???
"why would Sally call for "mister bubbles" without the conditioning???" it really is clear to see, that the angry gas thing is just a dumb retcon, I wouldn't be surprised if Sally and Mister Bubbles were originally bonded in part 1 and they changed their minds when part 2 was being created. the detachable Drill using Big Daddy wasn't aggressive when drilling into the bedrock outside the window.
The thing that annoys me the most is that Elizabeth dies for no reason. There were ways they could have had the dlc end the way it did without killing her off. Like making use of her future seeing powers (because she does still retain some of her abilities) to find an easy escape and let go of her personal guilt. Or just have her accept the reality of the situation which would of been that no matter how many Comstocks she offed, there would always be more resulting in Elizabeth having no choice but to let go of her endless pursuit of revenge. Which would have been a more logical ending to go with in my eyes. Plus it would have fixed the writing issues in the main game and this pair of dlc. What a waste for an iconic character.
@@timothyfinch7295 There are ways given how he wrote Infinite around the character. If they wanted they could just rip another Elizabeth from another universe and call it a day.
Her death was so stupid. I don't understand why she had to die because she literally would have made such a cool addition to the list of protagonists. Couldn't agree more, it was a massive waste for a badass and iconic character.
He did it for one reason: He didn't want a sequel with his characters. Ken was leaving and he didn't want anyone playing with his toys, that's why the DLC not only ruins Infinite characters but also ruin the original Bioshock by tying what was originally a separate story to this mess of a plot. The classic "torch the franchise" and run tactic.
@@SammEater yep which is why I will never get invested in anything he makes. Because if he leaves he'll probably just torch whatever it is he's working on again.
After replaying it the other day, the storyline of this DLC is infuriating, not just for all of the reasons you outlined in the video, but because about half way through Episode 2 they keep bringing up "Hey know Atlas is going to betray you right?" and Elizabeth always is just like "Yeah I know" but she keeps going along and dancing for the organ grinder without trying literally anything else. I really think there should've been an option to take Ryan's deal, even if it's just Elizabeth playing him to get past his secret police. There aren't even inconsequential choices like in the base game (i.e. which necklace, do you let Booker get stabbed, etc.).
@@MarkaNgamer Oh how convenient, the hack writers wrote that Elizabeth is always right because she can all all dimensions so you can't criticize her for doing things that seem stupid because SHE knows more than you. This shit's literally how religious zealots justify their belief in God despite all the horrible shit that happens. There's some greater plan, this is the only way for things to possibly work you just can't see it because of your limited viewpoint~~~ Fuck off with that. The writers chose to write things this way, chose to make her act in a way that seems dumb and arbitrary.
I was thinking about this lately... and I think as the story is based on "Constant and Variables"; that she has died to allow the Bioshock 1 to happen. THere is a scene with the rebel warrior ?Fiztroy? Whos is told be Luteces that she has to be killed by the Luteces. So the same way Elisabeth has to die by the hand of Atlas. And she knows it, and she knows she has no other possibility. And she knows that this is the way how to set in motion process of destroying Atlas. Also the game is a bit about the fact that the decisions does not matter - as it brings you at the same place/ while creating infinite other possibilities in other realities.
Burial At Sea is Levine breaking his toys out of spite. It's very clear that his intention was to fuck over the franchise. Not only does it completely ignore 2, it goes out of its way to say this is the ONLY universe where Rapture exists. It shits all over the lore of 1, 2 and the excellent Rapture novel. It's a middle finger in digital form.
True ended irrational games after infinite as well he broke his toys so no one else could play with them I hope cloud chamber can pick up the pieces at least with bioshock 4
@@rustifowler9384 I feel bad for whoever works under him. It has to royally suck to have months of work regularly tossed in the trash because Levine suddenly got a new idea. Worst part is, they can't even put any of it on their resumes because they have nothing to actually show for that work.
Ken Levine is a strange man. In the previous video about BioShock Infinite, he stated that he doesn't even enjoy his own games. He apparently "only likes to make games" but "hates having to ship them out". No wonder Infinite and his current project took so long to be finalised.
@@Daud-ix4tm they ignore second game completely and maybe that's for better not gonna lie it's hilarious to sink entire building as a prison when persephone exists...
@@ryszakowy If people were an active threat to everything you'd built and had the power to ruin everything you've created....wouldn't it make more sense to lock them up somewhere they could never escape from unless helped by someone else, or the regular county jail that exists next to everyone? They are sunk there because they are too strong of a threat to be in Persephone.
@@zoegordon9364 Then fucking kill them. Ryan's certainly ruthless enough. Stop trying to do the writers jobs for them, it's their responsibility, their job, to make the world they create make sense. Not the audience's.
Man looking back at Infinite I hadn't realized how much it destroyed the Bioshock series. The gameplay went from being semi imsim System Shock 2 inspired to full on Call of Duty mode. And the story just retconned itself out of existence. Say what you will about Bioshock 2 but at least it made major improvements to the gameplay while still keeping it semi imsim and the story was a nice continuation of the first game without going off the rails.
In my opinion, Infinite's biggest flaw was the fact that it was forced to be a BioShock game. It could've been a great standalone game/new IP because its combat, vigors, equipment and enemies were simple but unadulterated fun. However, its story tarnished BS 1 and 2 and didn't even make a lot of sense in a vacuum. A lot of genuine talent was wasted on a story that ended up swallowing its own tail for no good reason.
in bioshock 2 ryan was wondering if the interactive displays with animatronics were working and if children were responding to them so having elemantary or pre-school have ryan drawn as a lion would make bit of a sense who the fuck is peter the rat...
If it didn't crash a million times then yes I had to fight the game to finish it. It randomly decides to stop working especially in combat situations. It reminds me of Bethesda and not in a good way
It would be my second favorite if it weren't for all stability issues (seems like the end of little sister defense sequence has bugs that cause crashing.)
@@main_stream_media_is_a_joke it is the one that I played and almost gave up on it, heard that original also crashes a lot but less than remaster, it is a great game otherwise
Every time Burial at Sea pops up into my mind, I have to thank God that Minerva's Den exists. I'm sorry, but this just isn't a very good DLC. I appreciate the changes made into the gameplay, and I also quite adored the "Rapture before the fall" setting in modern graphics. But all of them unfortunately failed to make up for the tremendous mess that both "Infinite" games created with the plot. Like, I get that Ken Levine likes to mess with your head, but this one's taking it way too far. It really is a shame that this is the final entry we got for the BioShock series, up until that 4th game manages to pop its head out of the crypt, if it's even going to at this point.
Minerva's Den was a better Bioshock game than Bioshock 2, and Infinite, but for obvious reason. Both 2 and Infinite are fun to play, but Bioshock 2 had a severe case of "been there, done that", so a lot of it comes off as the worse version of BO1, but with better combat. BOI is fun, but its not really a "bioshock" game, is it? Its a typical FPS with a great art style, but it wasn't exactly an immersive sim (i think the genre is called that). Minerva's Den had all the good parts of Bioshock 2, but with a completely unique and interesting story that seemed to be inspired by some of System Shock's elements. Minerva's Den should have just been Bioshock 2's main story.
@@luckyducky7819 The main problem with Infinite is that the devs wanted to capitalise on the COD style shooters that heavily saturated the market in the late 2000s and early 2010s. The result? *Clunky* combat. The 2 weapons system is honestly just such a bad implementation. I know that it's probably to complement the use of skyhooks/tears and whatnot. But it takes away the magic from the previous titles' gameplay. The thing is, gameplay is the only thing that I liked about Infinite. I was following the story just fine until they began to stick their heads way up their own arses with the many plot holes generated by the universe-leaping. To answer your curiosity, yes, the genre is called immersive sim. Minerva's den took the best of both worlds: the mind blowing plot twist of the original BioShock, combined with the better gameplay of 2, with also some of the latter's simple, self-contained story that strums your heart strings rather than messing with your brain.
So let me get this straight. Part 1 of Burial At Sea is Liz coming to Rapture 40+ years after the events of Infinite (yet still looking like she's only 10-15 years older at most) to kill this version of Corncob because he's a Corncob, and even though he's tried to repent and no longer be the person he was, going so far as to complete forget that he ever was Corncob and thus making this effectively a completely different person who Lizzie is murdering. Okay, sure. No, really, that's fine. I don't care, people want revenge for all kinds of shit, I'll allow it even if it's not very logical. But here's what gets me. If she just is looking for an excuse to murder him... why the entire game? Why doesn't she just shoot him in the back at some point when he's not expecting it? Why not use tears and push him through into outer space or the center of the earth, or just the bottom of the ocean thousands of miles away? Why go through everything just to lure him into a fight with a Large Papa and use that to kill him? It's so convoluted. And as a writer, if the answer to questions of why the character doesn't act in accordance to their core motivations is "Because then the game wouldn't exist" then that's a sign you need to rethink shit.
Because Ken Levine wants his "You were Cornstarch the whole time" twist, to deny him a chance for repentance, spend his last minute forcing him to remember what a PoS he was, and grind sulfur into his gaping chest wound, scorning him for trying to find redemption... ... Only for Elizabeth to try and find the same redemption after using a Little Sister as bait, torturing her just to get petty revenge on a completely different version of Cornstarch, and then abandoning her, when she could have just as easily used her practical omnipotence to rescue her right then and there. Except in remaining the doggedly loyal errand bish of Atlas (who she on multiple occasions affirms that she knows he WILL betray her), she ends up causing the Rapture civil war that kills thousands, and gets herself killed in the process, but Ken tries to portray his key-to-everything Mary Sue daughtfu as performing a "too good for this cruel world" sacrifice just to save a single girl as a win. Oh, and despite Atlas now being at war and in need of all the Adam he can get, and being established as enough of a morally repugnant reprobate to betray Elizabeth, he's suddenly honorable enough to not harvest Sally in front of Elizabeth as she dies, because reasons. No matter how much people hate this game, they can't hate it enough.
@@DaMaster012 The most laughable thing about the sacrifice to save a little sister is that the protagonist of BS1 (in the good ending, at least) manages to save many little sisters and _doesn't even die doing it!_ This kind of shit really brings it home that unless a game is actually only made by 1 person, like Undertale or something, no one person is wholly responsible for a game being good. Kenny clearly has no idea what he's doing, and was obviously being carried by the rest of the team for the first game.
Long story short: the first game wasn't made to have a prequel like this and so it feels really out of place. There's no sign of Elizabeth's actions or herself in the original, not even the slightest, all the connections feel kind of forced.
Great video. Really dislike what Burial at Sea did to the canon, so I simply ignore the canon. An important thing to note is that both Infinite and the DLC had Levine and other noteworthy writers. One of which was Jordan Thomas, the director and writer for BioShock 2. It makes me wonder why nothing from BioShock 2 made it passed outside of two things: Dionysus Park is mentioned in Burial at Sea in a radio broadcast. There is also cosmetics made by Sinclar Solutions in Fontaine's secret room. Still, I just hate the wasted potential of this DLC, especially knowing that 2K Marin were working on an original DLC set in Columbia that was cancelled.
The name "Sinclair" had actually dated all the way back to the first BioShock. If memory serves, there was one Power to the People station that was located near a place called "Sinclair Spirits" in Fort Frolic (I am not sure if it's just a coincidence or if it's really the same guy). Other than that, I guess maybe because he's such a popular character in the community that he was allowed to be thrown in there
Bioshock 2 is barely mentioned cuz Levine hates the game cuz he didn't want to tell another Rapture story back then. Too bad its writing trumps BaS completely.
No so fun fact: it's implementation in B@S is still self-referential 'member berries for a game that wasn't even a decade old, and it's still stupid, since the implication is that the Big Daddy you just very clearly killed pulled an "I got better" and just stood right back up during the cutscene to kill you.
2:48 *Ken Levine:* "Stop making Elizabeth porn!" 2:54 *Also Kevin Levine:* gives Elizabeth the line, "Can you turn it up? Oh, it's so intoxicating... but also... but also powerful and masculine. Oh, yes... One- one has the urge to surrender..."
@@Metalgearfox2000 considering all she did for Sally after the vent, which didn’t injure her, I just don’t see it. As for Comstock, I don’t see how the DLC makes her any more unlikable on that front, considering she was just doing the same thing she did at the end of the base game.
They just should have made a DLC where you can walk around in Raptures Prime, visit all places from 1 and 2... no story needed, just things to look, talk to NPCs and maybe some mini games. I would have loved to see that.
The reason why I think that kevin levine did not want bioshock 2 reference in the mess of a story overall because 2k had him in a consulting role for 2K marine when it came it bioshock 2 while they had Jordan Thomas a developer that work on original bioshock as the creative director. Kevin did not like the fact someone else was playing in his sandbox so he decide when it came to infinite just pretend like the events form that game never existed and then make up bunch of other crap to forcefully link bioshock to infinite. Which I like bioshock 2 because it kept building up the world of rapture that we never got to see, now was draw dropping? No. It did a good job of a expanding sequel and did not recon story elementals form bioshock one in order to tell it story unlike like what kevin levine did with infinite. Jordan had a lot respect of source material that kevin had created but kevin in turn did not give a crap about his which help increase the scope of the bioshock universe.
Not only that but knowing he was gonna leave the studio anyway, he was making sure to make as much damage as possible to not let anyone else play with his toys.
An apt title. Sure is an infinite mess. I feel like the decision to sink Fontaines Department store to imprison Fontaines followers is just so weird. Its wasteful (a whole store with who knows how much work and resources that went into it?) When Ryan killed Fontaine he claimed his other properties so he could profit off them, why not the same case with the Department store? And as you mentioned, there's already a prison available. And when you raised the point of the Big Daddy in BAS1 being a massive plot hole I just started laughing, when the DLC contradicts or retcons not just BS1 and Infinite, but even itself! The idea of all the Comstocks being dead (and yet nooo theres just one left like...) the idea has always grated me that in /infinite/ universes such a thing would be possible... Alongside the idea of constants and variables, with the idea of "Always a a man, a lighthouse, a city". I suppose the man could be any man, but if it had to be a specific one then Rosalind and Robert Lutece demonstrate in some worlds the same person could end up with a different chromosomal set up (XX or XY or beyond) and so theres not always a man. But there's always a lighthouse? What if the very concept of lighthouses was not invented? (What if theres a universe where humans didn't evolve, etc) Trying to enforce an idea of constants and variables is impossible unless those two constants are life and death, things which are hard to disprove as being constant (especially if you look at the idea of life and death more loosely as in, something exists as 'life' and something ceases to exist as 'death') As you basically said, infinite universes are, messy. Its too bad the idea that would've been in Infinite originally, of opening tears causing pain/sickness/injury to Elizabeth wasn't kept, as that would have then created an interesting way to still be able to utilise the Tears in gameplay whilst having some form of consequences as a result, rather than having to fully depower her to actually be able to play as her. Though balancing it would still be difficult. The fact that Fontaine/Atlas doesn't know what the phrase is to control Jack, when he requested the mind control? Absurd. I think the idea of Elizabeth helping Brigid Tenenbaum would be more interesting, not necessarily causing all the events to occur as occurs with Elizabeths actual actions, but expediating Brigids research (where she would have gotten there in time but Elizabeths help made it easier rather than elizabeths help making it possible at all) (said research perhaps being the Little Sister Cure? Depends on the timing, and on when Brigid began to regret her actions) As having the parallels between how they treated the Little Sisters could be interesting. As you said, theres so many things they could have done with the idea. Add in the irony that Ken Levine said "We just knew we('re) done with Rapture - We'd said what we wanted to say." And yet this happened. Either way, cheers for the video.
As you said, Imagine if Elizabeth would have helped Brigid realize the horrors she made with those girls so she helped her to make a cure for the little sisters. Then Elizabeth could have somewhat mend her mistake. Elizabeth could have put all of her trust to save Sally in Jack. That way you don't "force" a cannon ending for the first game to the player but help reinforce the goods or the horrors that you choose as a player for the first game.
It's almost as if Infinite was a different game slapped with a marketable name/logo and ham fisted into fitting in with the other games. I remember when we used to get different games all the time, now it's just sequels and franchises up the whazoo. Are one and dones... well, done?
Infinite in its original form was definitely more of a bioshock game. Even in what we got theres enough similarities that it would have been accused of ripping off Bioshock if it were released under another title
For Persephone, I think a decent explanation would have been Booker mentioning that Sofia Lamb had taken over the prison, and Ryan not wanting to give her more people to bring into her fold, chose to make the department store a new prison.
@@InitialPC We’re still taking about the story, right? If that’s the case then I’d disagree: I find Bioshock 1’s writing overly pretentious and doesn’t do a good job at delivering on the game’s theming. It’s a very surface level game trying to sound more deep and intelligent than it is. Bioshock 2 on the other hand doesn’t try to deliver on some deep message, it keeps it simple and effective by exploring the only really interesting dynamic the first game had: the relationship between a little sister and her big daddy. It was a story about love, parenthood, and being an unwitting role-model to a girl who was starved of a parental figure who actually cared about her. Bioshock 1 and 2 are both about family and free-will at their core (even though Bioshock 1 pulls that message out of it’s 🍑 near the end), but the second game does a significantly better job on delivering that theme. Now, that doesn’t mean Bioshock 1’s attempt is without merit in theory; Jack lived a life where he was a pawn to all those around him, never free to make his own decisions or forge a true connection. So in the good ending of the game he used his newly acquired freedom to care and connect with the little sisters, and he left Rapture with a real family who genuinely loved him. Now, I think the game falters with it’s execution in how the game does a poor job of setting up the game’s conclusion. Family and actual love as a plot element don’t come in till near the end, and feels unsatisfying as a result. Secondly, the game fails at selling it’s freedom and choice narrative angle when Jack is just as much of a subordinate to someone else at the end of the game as he was at the start, the only thing that’s changed is whose voice is giving the command. I don’t remember which Bioshock UA-cam video I watched that mentioned it, but the UA-camr mentioned that the issue of Jack never truly gaining independence could’ve been solved if they just gave you a third ending option to just leave in a bathysphere once you’re not gonna die of heart failure. It would’ve made it more satisfying a conclusion if Jack decided to truly stick it out on his volition, even if a low percentage of players would actually choose to just up and leave. Bioshock 2 by contrast makes the goal clear from the start: get to Eleanor, get out. Simple, easy, and it doesn’t give you any ludonarrative dissonance on why Delta wouldn’t just leave. He can’t, no matter his feelings on Eleanor, he needs her to survive. The game then goes on to test the player on how they interact with the inhabitants of Rapture, and make it impact Eleanor’s view on the world. A selfish Delta who harvested little sisters and generally showed no care or love to anyone makes Eleanor a selfish monster once she’s finally given the freedom she was robbed of by her mother. A selfless Delta who showed that he cared about others-especially the little sisters show Eleanor what real love feels like. Sophia never showed Eleanor the love a mother should provide, and her experience with Delta in the past was tainted with psychological conditioning, which is why she made Tenenbaum undo it before he was revived. The game’s literal ending sequence always ends with Eleanor giving a monologue on what Delta-what you taught her. She says in Persephone (at least in the good ending of the game) that love is just a chemical, calling back to how her relationship with Delta was born in a test tube, but also that they give it meaning through their actions, which is what the game is about. Delta cannot speak, but what he can do is speak through his actions; and in doing so, teaches Eleanor what is valuable in life through it. That’s what makes Bioshock 2 so much better to me: it used the gaming medium to make a story about choice, love and independence, and did it more effectively than the first game. And that’s not even touching on Minerva’s Den, that DLC was amazing. Though I do wish the choice of whether to harvest or save the little sisters had a greater (or any at all, really) impact on the story. Especially since the game ends without telling you what happened to the little sisters you rescued in Minerva’s Den. As far as you know you just left them at the bottom of the ocean.
Before even watching the video, I just want to say that I loved Bioshock 1 and 2 so much that I got all achievements for both games immediately after beating the game. I played Bioshock Infinite for a few hours and just could not enjoy it. I was very disappointed about that.
Same here!👋🏻 I’m about 5 hours in and and routinely stop to contemplate whether I should just DNF the game. The combat just isn’t fun and genuinely makes me feel bad (I don’t want to brutally slaughter these men and women just doing their jobs)🙁
BS: Infinite is my first Bioshock games, and I was only in it because of the hype of the BS community. Unfortunately for me, the selling point of the game was the story, and I couldn't watch or read a proper review without spoiling the game story so I forfeit watching any. That's why I only found out via first hand that BS:Infinite is an utter insult to human intelligence.
It's a shame Elizabeth never saw what impact killing Bookers has on those worlds. Also, screw Elizabeth for not just teaming up with a Booker to kill the Comstocks.
You know what bothers me the most about the writing for Burial at Sea? The way Fontaine and Atlas were written. Now, some of his actions in the DLC make sense for Fontaine, the ruthless, unscrupulous con-man out only for himself. But Fontaine's supposed to be putting on an act as Atlas. He's the Voice of the People, he helps out at food lines and hypes people up about liberating them from Ryan. He should have been portrayed as kinder, more altruistic, and more helpful to Elizabeth in the early stages. Then, Elizabeth could have found out the truth, which causes Fontaine to drop the façade of Atlas, Voice of the People, and start acting more like Fontaine around her in order to get what he wants. That way you can keep things like the Lobotomy scene while keeping true to Fontaine's ability to lie and deceive people. That, and the DLC makes Fontaine look like an idiot, in that he apparently doesn't know Jack's most important control phrase "Would you kindly", but *does* know Code Yellow, the shutdown phrase? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Suchong to keep Code Yellow a secret back-up for himself and just tell Fontaine WYK since that's what Fontaine had paid for? It makes him look like an idiot and that he'd have completely lost had it not been for this dimension-hopping god showing up.
As much as I love Rapture, I was always so disappointed they just went right back to it lol especially when they have this awesome, new crazy city. Massive missed opportunities is pretty much the definition of Infinite
The Daisy Fitzroy retcon was more than just racism. The Bioshock series overall has taken a very "libertarian" ideal, regarding the thought that anyone who becomes too focused on an idea can take it to destructive extremes; basically a "both sides"-ism at work. Thus Bioshock 1, the issues with objectivism and capitalism, while Bioshock 2, its polar opposite, collectivism. The problem with Daisy came in that in Infinite, it was trying to "both sides" both Columbia, with its investure in both American Exceptionalism ("can do no wrong") as well as heavy Christianity and religion, vs Daisy's Vox Populi (Voice of the people) which Infinite tries to show would be just as bad as Comstock in controlling Columbia.....except the Vox were fighting against things people agree should be fought against: racism, the tyranny of state-sponsored religion, the rewriting of history in order to continue lies. These facts are why showing Daisy as willing to murder the boy was such a hullabaloo; She had done nothing to really show the extremism in thought that the Bioshock series loved to take a centrist view on.
It's true that we see very little of the darkest side of the Vox in the base game, but I think that's due to them being confined to Finkton and only killing police before Daisy's death. It was more apparent in the pre release footage, but the main "point" of the Vox so to speak is that most populist revolutions are composed of a few idealists and a lot of opportunists. There may be some like Daisy who are truly in it for the social change (though these types can often take it too far and take it out on the innocent) but by and large most people are just going to take it as an excuse to rape and pillage whatever they can.
@@nathancollins1715 Yes. Revolution has never worked out for the common people because it depends by its nature on ideology, and ideology assumes conformity without scrutiny. Trusting the "grand plan" even when it seemingly has major flaws. The "both sides are equally bad" argument isn't that all policies are equally bad, but that both sides can use ideology, regardless of what the ideology is, to introduce bad policy. Saying "X is bad and should be Y" is an idea that doesn't actually consider the practical ramifications of enforcing policies to that end. I think we all agree that hunger is bad and should be eliminated but there's no solution offered in that statement. You can motivate almost any food-related policy under that guise given enough propaganda, like murdering half your population to feed the other half, or turning all the national parks into corn fields. What is an idea worth? Additionally, it's a completely sensible assumption that the violent revolutionary leader, regardless of lofty ideals, is lacking in national economics, foreign diplomacy and everyday meat-and-potatoes politics. Things important to running a prosperous country. It's just not how you end up leading a large group of very angry people.
The fact the game skips what should have been an act made to show Daisy going nuts slowly as the characters realize the Vox are just as bad as the Columbia government really damaged the overall story.
I actually assumed that 'red scare' Daisy were actually in a different timeline, were probably Comstock government pushed oppression even further, which forced this Daisy to be much more brutal than than one we initially met.
The introduction of Elizabeth will now make any "-shock" game that comes from Irrational try to include the motifs of a lighthouse and the story beats that Infinite and Bioshock 1 shared, and will most definitely try to wedge lighthouse symbolism into places like Citadel Station. It is done well in Burial At Sea to the point that it isn't mentioned though. Cohen's Art Studio is a lighthouse, and there's even a strange tie to his painting resebling songbird's cracked eye, and when you wake up in his Bathysphere and see an amber light similar to songbird as well
I wouldn't be surprised if they retcon this ending in Burial at Sea to Elizabeth pulling some Houdini magic and duplicating herself, with the duplicate being the one that dies at the end of this dlc; so that she can cheat death and appear in the new game. Would not surprise me at all, since they've done it already in this very story.
Something that really bothered me is how the handling of little sisters in this game completely undermines the big sister's trauma in bs2. Maybe I'm just a little too empathetic to fictional characters, but the big sisters always had this terrible tragedy to them that fit the themes of the first two bioshocks so well imo. I mean think about it, they're kind of like bad end versions of Jack; children who were taken away from the lives they should've had and turned into weapons, the big sisters just never escaped the cycle of abuse. And as much as BaS harps on about cycles of trauma and the value of childhood/how rapture stole it from these kids, it just. doesn't give a shit about them (or bs2 in general) at all. It especially feels scummy due to what Elizabeth did to Sally and the people aboard the plane, she comes off as REALLY selfish there if you ask me, like, there's absolutely no care given for these girls as much as Ken likes to say there is. The way the DLC is written honestly just enables the abuse of the sisters more than anything, it takes agency away from any character who isn't Elizabeth, and she's treated like a good person despite being horrifically self-serving. * quick edit: loved your idea for an alternate world with little brothers, that would've been so cool. AUs can be fun! You just. Have to know what you're doing.
@@seeeds4702 I think if there’s a darker tone it would be the Big sisters became the Big Mommies who gave birth to Little sisters and Little brothers. Thus the cycle would than continue through lineage where they became the Big daddies and mommies, and so forth
For me Infinite just never really made sense just due to how messy Infinite universe plot can be. Honestly if they left it to just rapture I think it would have been fine. Or the third game could have revisited Rapture in a more degraded state than it was. Modern explorer would find it and the whole plot would just be getting the F out of dodge due to how more insane the splicers have become.
@@flarestorm9417 He's made quite a few. It's been a while since I played it but I specifically remember a menarche rag that you can mess with, in the game. Ken Levine is a bit of a kook.
Bioshock 1, Bioshock 2 and Minerva's Den: The Rapture Saga Bioshock Infinite, Burial at sea Ep. 1 and Ep. 2: The Elizabeth Saga In my personal opinion, I totally enjoyed Bioshock Infinite more than their dlc's because the thing that made me furious was how they change the lore of the original Bioshock 1 in the dlc's of Infinite and the fact that the story of Bioshock Infinite in Columbia was really good in my opinion and also the gameplay. P. S. Minerva's Den was far a better dlc than Burial at sea which how the Infinite dlc's name suggests... that it should have been buried at sea in the first place.
Thanks for making this video man, glad it's not another one of those "Why Burial At Sea is the best DLC for a game" type videos. Great constructive look at them!
But don't get off to her or Papa Ken will get mad. Kinda interesting considering her most famous outfit presses her boobs together and lets you look straight down her cleavage. Mixed messages, Kenny.
19:47 I could've sworn there was a recording from Suchong explaining that the big daddys only responded when any little sister called and for the rest of the time didn't follow them cus they weren't bonded.
There's one of Gil Alexander talking about that. But he didn't take over the Protector Program until after Suchong died. This is still a flaw with Burial since Suchong's death shows the very first, initial bond as rudimentary as it was.
Wow, thanks for this video! You perfectly encapsulated why I hated Burial at Sea so much. Ken Levine having such a hard-on for Elizabeth being the centre of everything ruined the franchise (not really).
Of the many MANY terrible aspects of Infinite and this DLC in particular, the most egregious to me in shoe-horning Elizabeth into the Rapture story. Irrational made the original characters completely incompetent just so the player can pick up the pieces here. For example, why the heck does Atlas need Elizabeth to bring him the "Ace in the hole" (a phrase that's been forever ruined) when he specifically planned everything about Jack in the original. Fontaine said that he ordered him up, "like a Chinese dinner".
What confuses me is the timeline because if you look at Booker’s calendar it says December 31, 1958 so they’re going into the new year of 1959 the opening cut scene in BioShock one when we are introduced to Jack says 1960 so did it take Atlas a year to get in contact with Jack?
Only a few select people can use a bathysphere to leave Rapture to relay the message to get Jack on the plane. And any former "allies" who challenged Ryan wound up on his "wall". Unfortunately , they never go into detail about who got Jack on the plane.
We are having so much stories exploring multiverse right now (Especially the awesome Everything everywhere All at Once) that bioshock infinite and DLC concepts are looking even more poorly conceived by comparison. It's not aging well at all.
Am I the only one that found it weird that the developer guy even KNOWS about the Elizabeth p*rn, especially after he just claimed the Elizabeth character was like a daughter to him? And on DEVIANTART of all places?
If bioshock 4 was made, ther could have the lady thar tried to help the little sisters bring elizabeth to life through the device that was in game respawns the main charzcters.
"They wrote themselves into a corner with this whole infinite universes idea" Seriously... Bioshock infinite was fine, up until the story went off a cliff and into irritating nonsense land.
I wish they'd have added a reference to Burial At Sea in the remaster... Like around the point where Jack finds Dr. Suchong, Jack can find her body and there could be a short audio clip or Atlas can come on the radio and mention how he remembers her being Cohen's songbird for a while there, and how he was starting to wonder what had happened to her... (or that she's lucky to not have been trapped with Cohen) Or have a moment in Bioshock 2 while playing as Delta, and have a moment where you can see the remains of Songbird on the seafloor, just outside the map or something as a little easter egg for the people who played Infinite or it's DLC.
"Remind me again why Courtney Draper hasn't done anything since?" Not 100% sure on this, but, I always attribute it to the way Levine treated her. It looked like it was a miserable experience for her despite her fantastic work.
Ken Levine is a bit of a tyrant from what I've heard. Considering Infinite had been rehashed for like, 4 different times before its release, it shouldn't come off as a surprise that she was mistreated in the process as well.
I feel like Burial at Sea was meant to drag back original Bioshock fans like myself that preferred the Ayn Rand inspired dystopia of Rapture before the dimension-hopping and time travel of Infinite...but all they did was taint the original story with said dimension-hopping and time travel along with destroying any likable aspects of the characters. No joke, I think the only good thing to come from this trash was the Rapture Elizabeth character model. I say both honestly and out of spite.
Thanks again to Dustandmarbles for providing the video intro! Would you kindly check out her excellent Bioshock 2 Animated Music Video? • ua-cam.com/video/1n8MMb_7zeE/v-deo.html&t Support the channel on Patreon: www.patreon.com/boulderpunch
there is something very sinister about bioshock infinite, i suspect black magic was used in making the game. when your playing it you have an overwhelming sense of hatred directed at you THE PLAYER! the emotions is conjures up are so dark and depressing all without a proper story to make sense of it all. this game was designed to make you feel bad, to hurt your soul
The dumbest thing about BioShock Infinite is it's constants and variables bs. Because if there's an infinite amount of Comstocks out there, along with Bookers and Elizabeths, then there should be an infinite amount of Atlases, Andrew Ryans, Jacks, Deltas, Eleanors and many other "important" characters. But no, for some reason, only Elizabeth and Booker can have their multiverse of clones. That's moronic. And this is where the franchise killed itself. I've no idea what Bio4 is going to be about, although I do remember hearing something about a city where one half of the city lives a luxurious life while the bottom half lives in poverty (more or less), but this idea of such a city would also have to have its own multiverse of copies. Then again, shouldn't there be a billion of other Ruptures and Columbias in the sea of stars? Man, this was poorly written. And yet another note: if there are constants and variables, shouldn't there exist a world where this Sally girl isn't dead or in danger? Again, poorly written garbage. Burial at Sea just ruined the universe, its metaphysical rule set.
what annoys me the most about Bioshock Infinite and the DLC is the very premise it's built upon or more specifically the fact that like all time travel fiction they ignore / retcon the main flaw. the flaw being that if somebody from the future has to go back into the past to fix/ stop events happening then there won't be any reason for them to exist in the future to go back. so in the context of Bioshock Infinite if Elizabeth kills every Booker/ Comstock then she wont have been born and can't go back and kill him. it doesn't matter about constants and variables because if Booker doesn't exist then she can't go back and kill him.
Is that an April's fools joke? Bioshock Infinite is no means a masterpiece because they pull a 360 at the end making the ending useless with the multiverse crap and how all of them lead to the same outcome. Lazy writing 101
Feel like it was Kevin Levine saying you can't touch bioshock now or keeping his toys to himself by doing this and infinite cloud chamber has to probably now do there own story cause of how much of mess Kevin Levine left for 2k games
It was the start of one of the first big hype titles in modern gaming, peak E3 marketing if you will, but yeah played it once and never went back to it, compared to B1 which of be probably played through about 8 times
Ya know, I very much enjoyed the Burial At Sea DLC when it first came out. When I replayed it via the remaster a year or so ago and I was baffled as I didn't enjoy as much. This comes after completing Inifinite, Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den. Bioshock 2 is among my favorites. Those endings! Such tragedy, such beauty, such loss, such hope.
When infinite came out, blender updated their animation systems. People were making a bunch of porn with Elizabeth and needed the tools to do it and since blender is free and open source, a bunch of upgrades were made, some from the developers and a bunch from fans. XD
I think they couldve done a more dlc outcome with bioshock infinite After all having infinite universes makes infinite possibilities so they could've just added short stories like what if Andrew Ryan faked his death or something sure it would've probably cost a lot but hey its a neat idea
Atlas was my favourite character from the first BioShock, funnily enough. He was great there, and he was great in Burial at Sea. I'm a sucker for characters with unique accents like himself and Sinclair from BioShock 2.
I kinda wish they made a DLC of the Battle at Wounded Knee and maybe even a remake of Comstocks rewrite of Wounded knee. (Part one being a gritty war story and part two being a cartoonish power fantasy that makes a mockery of part 1)
The "Mr Bubbles!!" and the apearence of a big daddy and realising that I was fucked cuz of Infinites gameplay compared to B1 and 2 had me litteraly screaming in fear and terror
I thought Fontaine would put Elizabeth and Sally in a bathysphere at the end of Burial at sea 2, the very same bathysphere that explodes in Bioshock 1 supposedly with Atlas's "family" inside. Oh well...
Okay, I get that Andrew Ryan is a bit of a *rabid* libertarian... but he's supposed to be smart. And a smart person doesn't push forward the idea that public health is only for those with expendable wealth *IN A CLOSE-QUARTERS CITY WITH STAGNANT AIR THAT IS CONSTANTLY BEING RECYLCED.* Anyone who's gotten far enough in Oxygen Not Included knows what I'm talking about. Not only should you be crowding everyone into the doctor's office, you should making it *mandatory.*
I’m my opinion, they didn’t need to make bioshock infinite or it’s dlc connected to the first game , I’d be fine with them mentioning Andrew Ryan but , by this point Ryan would probably be a young man by the base game but bioShock infinite should have been it’s stand alone thing .
All this, yes. But also... How does Elizabeth travel back to Columbia when the ending of the main game had her literally (supposedly) destroy _every_ timeline in which it existed, the whole point of drowning Booker/Comstock was to erase every timeline in which he went on to create Columbia. I can buy a version of Comstock still existing by essentially not being in his home dimension when it is erased but Elizabeth cannot go _back_ to Columbia after she has erased its timeline. It's like in Back to the Future 2 when they can't return to the future to stop Old Biff from going to the past (because that future no longer exists from their present), they can only move to the past to steal the almanac from Young Biff after Old Biff gives it to him. Plus their explanation for her losing her godlike powers and becoming killable again is that while she was immortally unkillable she was killed by a Big Daddy?? If I as Booker can shoot the Luteces at point blank range to no effect whatsoever (in the main game) then how the blazes was a Big Daddy able to kill a similarly 'outside of physical reality' being?
Burial at Sea makes me feel really sad for Elizabeth. She was so sweet, but the world ground her into dust. She didn’t deserve what she got. Not by a long shot.
She cooked alive a child to get revenge on an old man. And then she made it so an entire plane full of people would crash into the sea, to kickstart the events of BS1. I kindly disagree with your last statements, sir.
@James Gk not the point and topic of my first comment above and halo isnt worst then bioshock infinite, when it comes to the specific game in a series, as such as infinite in the bioshock series is terrible vs the other bioshock games
Shortly before Infinite was released, it was reported that one of Irrational's key employees wanted to leave the company, because they had religious objections with the game's ending. Levine said in an interview that as he wanted to keep that employee on board, he sat down with and talked to them about their point of view, and then decided to change the ending within the final three months of release, explaining the nonsensical final act of that game. I am mentioning this because Burial at Sea was quite obviously already in development at that point, with the story based on Infinite's original ending. While we don't know what that ending entails (and probably never will), it can be concluded that Elizabeth didn't become a demigod (as she was meant to die in BaS) but Booker did (explaining his constant appearance as a vision in part 2 of the DLC). Of course, when the ending of the base game was changed, the plot of the DLC had to be adjusted accordingly, leading to those handwaved explanations of storybeats that directly contradict Infinite's final ending. And it was all for nothing, as Irrational was closed after Infinite concluded, so that employee who caused this mess was gone anyways.
Finally someone pointed out the red conning of Daisy, it bugged me what they did with her character they made her something that had her fall into a bloodlust tragedy which is more understandable to a “Oh I guess Elizabeth needs character development. Guess I’ll die.” It always bugged me they did that too her character.
The lobotomy scene had me squirming in my chair while I was playing it for the first time. Absolutely horrific in the best way possible. Oh, a big reason why they would have used the Department Store as a prison instead of Persephone is that Atlas/Fontaine and his men were already in there. Much easier to just sink the store and cut off their routes of escape than to bother wasting men's lives in a bloodbath fighting the parasites. Plus Persephone was more about making problematic individuals disappear, not processing an army.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"When 2K tried to take control of MY franchise, i destroyed all sense of logical writing and burned it to the ground".
-Ken Levine
I THREW IT ON THE GROUND! YOU CAN'T BUY ME, 2K MAN!
@@redman9493 I see what you did there.
Funny. He hasn’t had any major hits since this DLC.
This game makes a lot of sense actually, you just clearly aren't paying enough attention to bother understanding it. Basically, every detail ties up and can e understood with just a little bit of inward thought in regard to the timeline but u don't even want to try to because of your blind love for BioShock 1. It's so sad that you'll miss out on understanding a beautiful game because of it.
@@zoegordon9364 The sole fact another booker exists after the original's drowning is a plothole at best and renders the original booker's sacrifice meaningless at worst. And elizabeth being dumb and violent enough to leave her perfect life in Paris behind just to kill him and yell at him is character assassination and a very stupid excuse to tie infinite's characters to Rapture. Which is also very funny, since the game's desperate attempt to reconnect with the original Bioshock is like recognizing that game is much better and much more interesting than infinite, yet you claim i'm the one with blind love.
For how much of a mess it is I'm glad it exists for the sake of getting to see Rapture in its prime in high fidelity.
Yeah, Rapture and Paris from Episode 2's intro were among the very few things that I liked about Burial at Sea.
And Noir Elizabeth rule34
and you're wrong
that rapture is 50's styled with design of base Infinite levels
rapture is supposed to be stuck in 20's art-deco style
aaaaaand by the time the dlc starts rapture is already supposed to be full of spliced up morons and leaking everywhere.
big daddies are the wrong series
and obligatory big daddy fight makes no sense since they are not bonded with little sisters yet
and little sisters vents being connected to actual heating is plain stupid
while making atlas in person look nothing like fontaine's picture from OG bioshock who keeps talking about his ACE IN THE HOLE
for the love of god he threw that line as a throwaway when jack was taking elevator up...
and atlas doesn't know the phrase "would you kindly" for no reason because he knew it all along since jack was conditioned to respond to it as a child
this non-existent conflict of realities has no sense
@@steelbear2063 she's literally named "50's elizabeth"
@@ryszakowy
Who by?
Knowing Ken Levine hates all the Elizabeth porn makes me smile inside
and Elizabeth too, as we seen
It makes me smile outside while fapping harder.lmao
Makes those that make it smile even more
My hatred of BioShock Infinite is so great that knowing Ken Levine hates all the R34 of his key-to-everything Mary Sue daughterfu genuinely makes me, a Mormon, sometimes think about making content to add to that profane pile just to spite him.
ok, like, I get the frustration with the man, but I do think these reactions are a bit excessive.
My favorite part about Burial at Sea is how pointless it is. It's too different from Rapture's depictions in 1&2 to even possibly take place in that universe/timeline, so it actually has no connection to 1 despite pretending it does. The Jack on the plane of Burial is not the Jack from 1. Booker/Comstock proves this. Infinite universes, infinite Jacks, meaning the whole dlc is pointless since it only effects a singular alternate Rapture. In other words, the DLC can't even justify it's own existence.
The worst part of this DLC is that it wasn't completely bad. Instead, it had all these conflicting qualities pulling me in different directions. The retconning of the base game is terrible and yet the labotomy scene was like a page out of Tarantino. I enjoyed returning to Columbia but only long enough to remember that Columbia shouldn't even exist following Booker's drowning. And I loved the trip down memory lane in Rapture even if it had to bend over backwards to link infinite to Bioshock 1. Jeez what a mess.
What part of a million universes is not clear😭😭 By that logic elizabeth shouldn’t even exist but the whole premise this game is based on is that although in many universes com stock is dead there are a few where he still exists
@@zoegordon9364 But that conflicts with the ending of Infinite. The reason she drowns Booker before the baptism choice is so that there will be no Comstocks, though i still think it's silly because logically that means there'll be no Elizabeth to drown him... God, that game really fell apart once alternate universes were introduced :(
@@johnythefox100 I don't think so. THAT Comstock would not exist. But who knows which was the last one, obviously not that one.
@@MarkaNgamer you're missing the point, drowning Booker before the baptism means there will be NO Comstock, ever. That's why she killed him.
@@zoegordon9364 bioshock 1 fanboys are something else lol
This whole DLC is pretty much little more than Levine and the others torching the franchise and running for it, as the rights to Bioshock were to default to 2K soon after. So yeah, a case of “here’s your franchise now, douchebags”.
That, and the lack of nods to Bioshock 2 is due to Levine not being involved in that game’s development, so it’s also a petty middle finger to it via him doing everything he can to not reference it and the like. In other words, it doesn’t count in the overall story, as only Levine’s games are the important canon ones.
Yeah, he got a little bit petty didn’t he?
Burial At Sea is Levine breaking his toys out of spite. It's very clear that his intention was to fuck over the franchise.
@@shagohad3I can see it that way but I can also use the multiverse plot and say Bioshock 1 happened without Elizabeth’s influence because Bioshock 1 could easily have happened on its own in a different universe and Ken Levine technically allowed Bioshock 2 in his multiverse as another possibility.
@@shagohad3 Or maybe Levine was just not as good of a writer as he believed...
Bruh i hate this DLC so much--it basically holds the first game hostage to say "what did you NOT want that game and its happy ending to happen? Because if you don't have Elizabeth intentionally crash this plane kill innocents lives to clear her guilt then that game you love won't happen!" its so dumb.
There IS a sight explanation for why the big daddy in BaS part 1 attacks Booker despite the lack of the protector gatherer bond (which according to BS2... they would've already been bonded given Suchong died before Delta and Eleanor were bonded but in BaS Suchong is alive and there are no bonds of any type)
There's a sign in Suchong's lab talking about the detachable drill extension that only exists in this DLC, and how the drills fume "angry gas" into the big daddy's making them aggro on sight, so the design was dropped hence why its not in the other games. So the Big Daddy at the end of Part 1 just had ANGRY gas in its system and was just conveniently there to kill Booker and Elizabeth and then wander off without helping Sally because they weren't actually bonded.
its SUPER dumb, and you can tell it was just writing back words to try and make the story work b/c why would Sally call for "mister bubbles" without the conditioning???
"why would Sally call for "mister bubbles" without the conditioning???" it really is clear to see, that the angry gas thing is just a dumb retcon, I wouldn't be surprised if Sally and Mister Bubbles were originally bonded in part 1 and they changed their minds when part 2 was being created.
the detachable Drill using Big Daddy wasn't aggressive when drilling into the bedrock outside the window.
It's so hard to get that is a different universe? Don't worry about the final ending in bioshock 1, somehow both are canon
@@prufan Maybe Suchong didn't know how to vinculate all the big daddys? Tbh the whole scene with Sally (in episode 1) was good but also odd
The dlc was gimmicky
@@hadessdlt8720 except it's not. the creator said many time that the rapture of the DLC is the one frome the first 2 games.
The thing that annoys me the most is that Elizabeth dies for no reason. There were ways they could have had the dlc end the way it did without killing her off. Like making use of her future seeing powers (because she does still retain some of her abilities) to find an easy escape and let go of her personal guilt. Or just have her accept the reality of the situation which would of been that no matter how many Comstocks she offed, there would always be more resulting in Elizabeth having no choice but to let go of her endless pursuit of revenge.
Which would have been a more logical ending to go with in my eyes. Plus it would have fixed the writing issues in the main game and this pair of dlc. What a waste for an iconic character.
Nah, Ken just wanted to ensure 2K couldn't keep using the characters after he left.
@@timothyfinch7295 There are ways given how he wrote Infinite around the character. If they wanted they could just rip another Elizabeth from another universe and call it a day.
Her death was so stupid. I don't understand why she had to die because she literally would have made such a cool addition to the list of protagonists. Couldn't agree more, it was a massive waste for a badass and iconic character.
He did it for one reason: He didn't want a sequel with his characters.
Ken was leaving and he didn't want anyone playing with his toys, that's why the DLC not only ruins Infinite characters but also ruin the original Bioshock by tying what was originally a separate story to this mess of a plot.
The classic "torch the franchise" and run tactic.
@@SammEater yep which is why I will never get invested in anything he makes. Because if he leaves he'll probably just torch whatever it is he's working on again.
After replaying it the other day, the storyline of this DLC is infuriating, not just for all of the reasons you outlined in the video, but because about half way through Episode 2 they keep bringing up "Hey know Atlas is going to betray you right?" and Elizabeth always is just like "Yeah I know" but she keeps going along and dancing for the organ grinder without trying literally anything else. I really think there should've been an option to take Ryan's deal, even if it's just Elizabeth playing him to get past his secret police. There aren't even inconsequential choices like in the base game (i.e. which necklace, do you let Booker get stabbed, etc.).
She was stubborn because she knew it was the only way. I don't see a problem here.
@@MarkaNgamer Oh how convenient, the hack writers wrote that Elizabeth is always right because she can all all dimensions so you can't criticize her for doing things that seem stupid because SHE knows more than you.
This shit's literally how religious zealots justify their belief in God despite all the horrible shit that happens. There's some greater plan, this is the only way for things to possibly work you just can't see it because of your limited viewpoint~~~ Fuck off with that. The writers chose to write things this way, chose to make her act in a way that seems dumb and arbitrary.
I was thinking about this lately... and I think as the story is based on "Constant and Variables"; that she has died to allow the Bioshock 1 to happen. THere is a scene with the rebel warrior ?Fiztroy? Whos is told be Luteces that she has to be killed by the Luteces.
So the same way Elisabeth has to die by the hand of Atlas. And she knows it, and she knows she has no other possibility. And she knows that this is the way how to set in motion process of destroying Atlas.
Also the game is a bit about the fact that the decisions does not matter - as it brings you at the same place/ while creating infinite other possibilities in other realities.
Burial At Sea is Levine breaking his toys out of spite. It's very clear that his intention was to fuck over the franchise. Not only does it completely ignore 2, it goes out of its way to say this is the ONLY universe where Rapture exists. It shits all over the lore of 1, 2 and the excellent Rapture novel. It's a middle finger in digital form.
True ended irrational games after infinite as well he broke his toys so no one else could play with them I hope cloud chamber can pick up the pieces at least with bioshock 4
Take two could easily make Burial at Sea non canon for future Bioshock games.
It's funny, I read an article about him today and his "perfectionism" and figured he was a narcissist rather quickly.
@@rustifowler9384 I feel bad for whoever works under him. It has to royally suck to have months of work regularly tossed in the trash because Levine suddenly got a new idea. Worst part is, they can't even put any of it on their resumes because they have nothing to actually show for that work.
Ken Levine is a strange man. In the previous video about BioShock Infinite, he stated that he doesn't even enjoy his own games. He apparently "only likes to make games" but "hates having to ship them out". No wonder Infinite and his current project took so long to be finalised.
This DLC is the definition of ..
“You need to buy this to see what we did to the lore of the original game”
More like "You need to buy this DLC to ruin everything we built up about the first game"
@@samuellinn and 2 as well
@@Daud-ix4tm they ignore second game completely and maybe that's for better
not gonna lie it's hilarious to sink entire building as a prison when persephone exists...
@@ryszakowy If people were an active threat to everything you'd built and had the power to ruin everything you've created....wouldn't it make more sense to lock them up somewhere they could never escape from unless helped by someone else, or the regular county jail that exists next to everyone? They are sunk there because they are too strong of a threat to be in Persephone.
@@zoegordon9364 Then fucking kill them. Ryan's certainly ruthless enough. Stop trying to do the writers jobs for them, it's their responsibility, their job, to make the world they create make sense. Not the audience's.
Man looking back at Infinite I hadn't realized how much it destroyed the Bioshock series. The gameplay went from being semi imsim System Shock 2 inspired to full on Call of Duty mode. And the story just retconned itself out of existence. Say what you will about Bioshock 2 but at least it made major improvements to the gameplay while still keeping it semi imsim and the story was a nice continuation of the first game without going off the rails.
In my opinion, Infinite's biggest flaw was the fact that it was forced to be a BioShock game. It could've been a great standalone game/new IP because its combat, vigors, equipment and enemies were simple but unadulterated fun. However, its story tarnished BS 1 and 2 and didn't even make a lot of sense in a vacuum. A lot of genuine talent was wasted on a story that ended up swallowing its own tail for no good reason.
14:58 "Was Ryan a furry?"
He's asking the real questions here.
I like to think he didn't sink that low.
in bioshock 2 ryan was wondering if the interactive displays with animatronics were working and if children were responding to them
so having elemantary or pre-school have ryan drawn as a lion would make bit of a sense
who the fuck is peter the rat...
@@ryszakowy guess his depiction of parasites above rapture to be more of rat like character
@@ryszakowy Peter the Parasite. Literally everyone Ryan dislikes is a "Dirty Rat"
Well, Rapture _was_ a city for rich artists and such. And people that draw wolf ass rake in commission bucks like nothing else.
Bioshock 2 will always be my personal favorite in the series, especially the DLC.
if it didn't crash almost as often as bethesda games...
even in 2022...
If it didn't crash a million times then yes I had to fight the game to finish it. It randomly decides to stop working especially in combat situations. It reminds me of Bethesda and not in a good way
It would be my second favorite if it weren't for all stability issues (seems like the end of little sister defense sequence has bugs that cause crashing.)
@@nikso1496 Does even the remastered version have stability issues?
@@main_stream_media_is_a_joke it is the one that I played and almost gave up on it, heard that original also crashes a lot but less than remaster, it is a great game otherwise
Every time Burial at Sea pops up into my mind, I have to thank God that Minerva's Den exists. I'm sorry, but this just isn't a very good DLC. I appreciate the changes made into the gameplay, and I also quite adored the "Rapture before the fall" setting in modern graphics. But all of them unfortunately failed to make up for the tremendous mess that both "Infinite" games created with the plot. Like, I get that Ken Levine likes to mess with your head, but this one's taking it way too far. It really is a shame that this is the final entry we got for the BioShock series, up until that 4th game manages to pop its head out of the crypt, if it's even going to at this point.
Minerva's Den was a better Bioshock game than Bioshock 2, and Infinite, but for obvious reason. Both 2 and Infinite are fun to play, but Bioshock 2 had a severe case of "been there, done that", so a lot of it comes off as the worse version of BO1, but with better combat. BOI is fun, but its not really a "bioshock" game, is it? Its a typical FPS with a great art style, but it wasn't exactly an immersive sim (i think the genre is called that).
Minerva's Den had all the good parts of Bioshock 2, but with a completely unique and interesting story that seemed to be inspired by some of System Shock's elements. Minerva's Den should have just been Bioshock 2's main story.
@@luckyducky7819 The main problem with Infinite is that the devs wanted to capitalise on the COD style shooters that heavily saturated the market in the late 2000s and early 2010s. The result? *Clunky* combat. The 2 weapons system is honestly just such a bad implementation. I know that it's probably to complement the use of skyhooks/tears and whatnot. But it takes away the magic from the previous titles' gameplay. The thing is, gameplay is the only thing that I liked about Infinite. I was following the story just fine until they began to stick their heads way up their own arses with the many plot holes generated by the universe-leaping. To answer your curiosity, yes, the genre is called immersive sim.
Minerva's den took the best of both worlds: the mind blowing plot twist of the original BioShock, combined with the better gameplay of 2, with also some of the latter's simple, self-contained story that strums your heart strings rather than messing with your brain.
I have no idea why Minerva's Den is so worshipped.
4th game has been announced! Everyone grab your vigors, up your health, load your clips, and get ready for the newest installment of mindfuck!
So let me get this straight. Part 1 of Burial At Sea is Liz coming to Rapture 40+ years after the events of Infinite (yet still looking like she's only 10-15 years older at most) to kill this version of Corncob because he's a Corncob, and even though he's tried to repent and no longer be the person he was, going so far as to complete forget that he ever was Corncob and thus making this effectively a completely different person who Lizzie is murdering.
Okay, sure. No, really, that's fine. I don't care, people want revenge for all kinds of shit, I'll allow it even if it's not very logical.
But here's what gets me. If she just is looking for an excuse to murder him... why the entire game? Why doesn't she just shoot him in the back at some point when he's not expecting it? Why not use tears and push him through into outer space or the center of the earth, or just the bottom of the ocean thousands of miles away? Why go through everything just to lure him into a fight with a Large Papa and use that to kill him? It's so convoluted. And as a writer, if the answer to questions of why the character doesn't act in accordance to their core motivations is "Because then the game wouldn't exist" then that's a sign you need to rethink shit.
Because Ken Levine wants his "You were Cornstarch the whole time" twist, to deny him a chance for repentance, spend his last minute forcing him to remember what a PoS he was, and grind sulfur into his gaping chest wound, scorning him for trying to find redemption...
... Only for Elizabeth to try and find the same redemption after using a Little Sister as bait, torturing her just to get petty revenge on a completely different version of Cornstarch, and then abandoning her, when she could have just as easily used her practical omnipotence to rescue her right then and there. Except in remaining the doggedly loyal errand bish of Atlas (who she on multiple occasions affirms that she knows he WILL betray her), she ends up causing the Rapture civil war that kills thousands, and gets herself killed in the process, but Ken tries to portray his key-to-everything Mary Sue daughtfu as performing a "too good for this cruel world" sacrifice just to save a single girl as a win.
Oh, and despite Atlas now being at war and in need of all the Adam he can get, and being established as enough of a morally repugnant reprobate to betray Elizabeth, he's suddenly honorable enough to not harvest Sally in front of Elizabeth as she dies, because reasons.
No matter how much people hate this game, they can't hate it enough.
@@DaMaster012 The most laughable thing about the sacrifice to save a little sister is that the protagonist of BS1 (in the good ending, at least) manages to save many little sisters and _doesn't even die doing it!_
This kind of shit really brings it home that unless a game is actually only made by 1 person, like Undertale or something, no one person is wholly responsible for a game being good. Kenny clearly has no idea what he's doing, and was obviously being carried by the rest of the team for the first game.
Freakin Cornpop, man.
Long story short: the first game wasn't made to have a prequel like this and so it feels really out of place. There's no sign of Elizabeth's actions or herself in the original, not even the slightest, all the connections feel kind of forced.
Great video. Really dislike what Burial at Sea did to the canon, so I simply ignore the canon. An important thing to note is that both Infinite and the DLC had Levine and other noteworthy writers. One of which was Jordan Thomas, the director and writer for BioShock 2. It makes me wonder why nothing from BioShock 2 made it passed outside of two things: Dionysus Park is mentioned in Burial at Sea in a radio broadcast. There is also cosmetics made by Sinclar Solutions in Fontaine's secret room. Still, I just hate the wasted potential of this DLC, especially knowing that 2K Marin were working on an original DLC set in Columbia that was cancelled.
Adonis Luxury Resort is also one of the possible targets for Atlas' thugs to attack
The name "Sinclair" had actually dated all the way back to the first BioShock. If memory serves, there was one Power to the People station that was located near a place called "Sinclair Spirits" in Fort Frolic (I am not sure if it's just a coincidence or if it's really the same guy). Other than that, I guess maybe because he's such a popular character in the community that he was allowed to be thrown in there
@@aleisinwndrlen7113 Augustus Sinclair owns all the businesses under the name Sinclair
Bioshock 2 is barely mentioned cuz Levine hates the game cuz he didn't want to tell another Rapture story back then. Too bad its writing trumps BaS completely.
@@solairedude7119 It's never stated anywhere that he hates Bioshock 2
8:21
Fun fact:This scene is a reference to the first bioshock trailer
I remember thinking the same thing when I played through this recently. The way the drill pops up from behind, then a cut to black.
That wasn't the first trailer...
@@Ronam0451 **Cough** Downer! **Cough**
No so fun fact: it's implementation in B@S is still self-referential 'member berries for a game that wasn't even a decade old, and it's still stupid, since the implication is that the Big Daddy you just very clearly killed pulled an "I got better" and just stood right back up during the cutscene to kill you.
2:48 *Ken Levine:* "Stop making Elizabeth porn!"
2:54 *Also Kevin Levine:* gives Elizabeth the line, "Can you turn it up? Oh, it's so intoxicating... but also... but also powerful and masculine. Oh, yes... One- one has the urge to surrender..."
Wasn't she buying time in that instance? I haven't played the game, but it looked like she was just distracting the goon
My hatred of BioShock Infinite is so great that at times, I, a Christian, am tempted to make R34 of Elizabeth just to spite Ken Levine.
Elizabeth was incredibly unlikable in the DLC. Levine clearly disliked Booker, I wonder why.
For real. He seems to take pleasure in killing booker and making his actions futile.
Lol….why? What about her made her unlikable?
@@BeggarsNight burning Sally in the dlc and using comstock in the dlc to send him to his death.
@@Metalgearfox2000 considering all she did for Sally after the vent, which didn’t injure her, I just don’t see it. As for Comstock, I don’t see how the DLC makes her any more unlikable on that front, considering she was just doing the same thing she did at the end of the base game.
@@BeggarsNight that proves the point further she was my least favorite in base game and dlc
They just should have made a DLC where you can walk around in Raptures Prime, visit all places from 1 and 2... no story needed, just things to look, talk to NPCs and maybe some mini games. I would have loved to see that.
I honestly would've preferred that over retcon and plothole central lol
3:25 all i could think of is Bobby Hill screaming I DONT KNOW YOU! and THATS MY PURSE!
and now im fucking dying of laughter.
The reason why I think that kevin levine did not want bioshock 2 reference in the mess of a story overall because 2k had him in a consulting role for 2K marine when it came it bioshock 2 while they had Jordan Thomas a developer that work on original bioshock as the creative director. Kevin did not like the fact someone else was playing in his sandbox so he decide when it came to infinite just pretend like the events form that game never existed and then make up bunch of other crap to forcefully link bioshock to infinite. Which I like bioshock 2 because it kept building up the world of rapture that we never got to see, now was draw dropping? No. It did a good job of a expanding sequel and did not recon story elementals form bioshock one in order to tell it story unlike like what kevin levine did with infinite. Jordan had a lot respect of source material that kevin had created but kevin in turn did not give a crap about his which help increase the scope of the bioshock universe.
True why he ended it so messy to with infinite and burial at sea didn't want no one playing in his sandbox
Not only that but knowing he was gonna leave the studio anyway, he was making sure to make as much damage as possible to not let anyone else play with his toys.
@@SammEater damn that's so toxic of him jesus christ
@@SammEater Damn, reminded me of David and Dan form Game of thrones
An apt title. Sure is an infinite mess.
I feel like the decision to sink Fontaines Department store to imprison Fontaines followers is just so weird. Its wasteful (a whole store with who knows how much work and resources that went into it?) When Ryan killed Fontaine he claimed his other properties so he could profit off them, why not the same case with the Department store? And as you mentioned, there's already a prison available.
And when you raised the point of the Big Daddy in BAS1 being a massive plot hole I just started laughing, when the DLC contradicts or retcons not just BS1 and Infinite, but even itself!
The idea of all the Comstocks being dead (and yet nooo theres just one left like...) the idea has always grated me that in /infinite/ universes such a thing would be possible... Alongside the idea of constants and variables, with the idea of "Always a a man, a lighthouse, a city". I suppose the man could be any man, but if it had to be a specific one then Rosalind and Robert Lutece demonstrate in some worlds the same person could end up with a different chromosomal set up (XX or XY or beyond) and so theres not always a man. But there's always a lighthouse? What if the very concept of lighthouses was not invented? (What if theres a universe where humans didn't evolve, etc) Trying to enforce an idea of constants and variables is impossible unless those two constants are life and death, things which are hard to disprove as being constant (especially if you look at the idea of life and death more loosely as in, something exists as 'life' and something ceases to exist as 'death')
As you basically said, infinite universes are, messy.
Its too bad the idea that would've been in Infinite originally, of opening tears causing pain/sickness/injury to Elizabeth wasn't kept, as that would have then created an interesting way to still be able to utilise the Tears in gameplay whilst having some form of consequences as a result, rather than having to fully depower her to actually be able to play as her. Though balancing it would still be difficult.
The fact that Fontaine/Atlas doesn't know what the phrase is to control Jack, when he requested the mind control? Absurd.
I think the idea of Elizabeth helping Brigid Tenenbaum would be more interesting, not necessarily causing all the events to occur as occurs with Elizabeths actual actions, but expediating Brigids research (where she would have gotten there in time but Elizabeths help made it easier rather than elizabeths help making it possible at all) (said research perhaps being the Little Sister Cure? Depends on the timing, and on when Brigid began to regret her actions) As having the parallels between how they treated the Little Sisters could be interesting.
As you said, theres so many things they could have done with the idea.
Add in the irony that Ken Levine said "We just knew we('re) done with Rapture - We'd said what we wanted to say." And yet this happened.
Either way, cheers for the video.
As you said, Imagine if Elizabeth would have helped Brigid realize the horrors she made with those girls so she helped her to make a cure for the little sisters. Then Elizabeth could have somewhat mend her mistake. Elizabeth could have put all of her trust to save Sally in Jack. That way you don't "force" a cannon ending for the first game to the player but help reinforce the goods or the horrors that you choose as a player for the first game.
It's almost as if Infinite was a different game slapped with a marketable name/logo and ham fisted into fitting in with the other games. I remember when we used to get different games all the time, now it's just sequels and franchises up the whazoo. Are one and dones... well, done?
Infinite in its original form was definitely more of a bioshock game. Even in what we got theres enough similarities that it would have been accused of ripping off Bioshock if it were released under another title
@@iamantieverything87 I’ll have to check out preproduction for the game and see what the beta was like. 😎
Didn't bioshock infinite rip off infamous 2?
@@joshuaharry4163 I have no idea 🤷♂️
For Persephone, I think a decent explanation would have been Booker mentioning that Sofia Lamb had taken over the prison, and Ryan not wanting to give her more people to bring into her fold, chose to make the department store a new prison.
Yeah there's a bunch of very simple ways to have it make sense. But the writers didn't care, so they didn't bother even trying.
that would involve legitimizing bioshock 2, ken levine would not have that
@@InitialPCWhich sucks because Bioshock 2 has easily the best writing in the franchise.
@@Hewasnumber1 It's better than Infinite but without Minerva's Den it's not as good as the first IMO.
@@InitialPC We’re still taking about the story, right? If that’s the case then I’d disagree: I find Bioshock 1’s writing overly pretentious and doesn’t do a good job at delivering on the game’s theming. It’s a very surface level game trying to sound more deep and intelligent than it is. Bioshock 2 on the other hand doesn’t try to deliver on some deep message, it keeps it simple and effective by exploring the only really interesting dynamic the first game had: the relationship between a little sister and her big daddy. It was a story about love, parenthood, and being an unwitting role-model to a girl who was starved of a parental figure who actually cared about her.
Bioshock 1 and 2 are both about family and free-will at their core (even though Bioshock 1 pulls that message out of it’s 🍑 near the end), but the second game does a significantly better job on delivering that theme. Now, that doesn’t mean Bioshock 1’s attempt is without merit in theory; Jack lived a life where he was a pawn to all those around him, never free to make his own decisions or forge a true connection. So in the good ending of the game he used his newly acquired freedom to care and connect with the little sisters, and he left Rapture with a real family who genuinely loved him. Now, I think the game falters with it’s execution in how the game does a poor job of setting up the game’s conclusion. Family and actual love as a plot element don’t come in till near the end, and feels unsatisfying as a result. Secondly, the game fails at selling it’s freedom and choice narrative angle when Jack is just as much of a subordinate to someone else at the end of the game as he was at the start, the only thing that’s changed is whose voice is giving the command. I don’t remember which Bioshock UA-cam video I watched that mentioned it, but the UA-camr mentioned that the issue of Jack never truly gaining independence could’ve been solved if they just gave you a third ending option to just leave in a bathysphere once you’re not gonna die of heart failure. It would’ve made it more satisfying a conclusion if Jack decided to truly stick it out on his volition, even if a low percentage of players would actually choose to just up and leave.
Bioshock 2 by contrast makes the goal clear from the start: get to Eleanor, get out. Simple, easy, and it doesn’t give you any ludonarrative dissonance on why Delta wouldn’t just leave. He can’t, no matter his feelings on Eleanor, he needs her to survive. The game then goes on to test the player on how they interact with the inhabitants of Rapture, and make it impact Eleanor’s view on the world. A selfish Delta who harvested little sisters and generally showed no care or love to anyone makes Eleanor a selfish monster once she’s finally given the freedom she was robbed of by her mother. A selfless Delta who showed that he cared about others-especially the little sisters show Eleanor what real love feels like. Sophia never showed Eleanor the love a mother should provide, and her experience with Delta in the past was tainted with psychological conditioning, which is why she made Tenenbaum undo it before he was revived. The game’s literal ending sequence always ends with Eleanor giving a monologue on what Delta-what you taught her. She says in Persephone (at least in the good ending of the game) that love is just a chemical, calling back to how her relationship with Delta was born in a test tube, but also that they give it meaning through their actions, which is what the game is about. Delta cannot speak, but what he can do is speak through his actions; and in doing so, teaches Eleanor what is valuable in life through it. That’s what makes Bioshock 2 so much better to me: it used the gaming medium to make a story about choice, love and independence, and did it more effectively than the first game.
And that’s not even touching on Minerva’s Den, that DLC was amazing. Though I do wish the choice of whether to harvest or save the little sisters had a greater (or any at all, really) impact on the story. Especially since the game ends without telling you what happened to the little sisters you rescued in Minerva’s Den. As far as you know you just left them at the bottom of the ocean.
Before even watching the video, I just want to say that I loved Bioshock 1 and 2 so much that I got all achievements for both games immediately after beating the game. I played Bioshock Infinite for a few hours and just could not enjoy it. I was very disappointed about that.
Same here!👋🏻 I’m about 5 hours in and and routinely stop to contemplate whether I should just DNF the game. The combat just isn’t fun and genuinely makes me feel bad (I don’t want to brutally slaughter these men and women just doing their jobs)🙁
BS: Infinite is my first Bioshock games, and I was only in it because of the hype of the BS community.
Unfortunately for me, the selling point of the game was the story, and I couldn't watch or read a proper review without spoiling the game story so I forfeit watching any.
That's why I only found out via first hand that BS:Infinite is an utter insult to human intelligence.
@@gelmir7322 How do you feel about 1 & 2?
It's a shame Elizabeth never saw what impact killing Bookers has on those worlds.
Also, screw Elizabeth for not just teaming up with a Booker to kill the Comstocks.
You know what bothers me the most about the writing for Burial at Sea? The way Fontaine and Atlas were written.
Now, some of his actions in the DLC make sense for Fontaine, the ruthless, unscrupulous con-man out only for himself. But Fontaine's supposed to be putting on an act as Atlas. He's the Voice of the People, he helps out at food lines and hypes people up about liberating them from Ryan. He should have been portrayed as kinder, more altruistic, and more helpful to Elizabeth in the early stages. Then, Elizabeth could have found out the truth, which causes Fontaine to drop the façade of Atlas, Voice of the People, and start acting more like Fontaine around her in order to get what he wants. That way you can keep things like the Lobotomy scene while keeping true to Fontaine's ability to lie and deceive people.
That, and the DLC makes Fontaine look like an idiot, in that he apparently doesn't know Jack's most important control phrase "Would you kindly", but *does* know Code Yellow, the shutdown phrase? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Suchong to keep Code Yellow a secret back-up for himself and just tell Fontaine WYK since that's what Fontaine had paid for? It makes him look like an idiot and that he'd have completely lost had it not been for this dimension-hopping god showing up.
In life no one is kind and everyone has a motive. Seems real to me
@@MrMcflanigengamingI'm sorry you've lived a way that's led you to believe that. How tragic.
@@FrostandFyre Ok the world’s perfect. We all know or part and get along. Theirs not a cloud in site. I guess we live in different worlds.
@@MrMcflanigengamingmy dude knowing just extremes and can't conceive that it's more complicated than black and white.
@@Vulkan1998 it is black and white. I didn’t say it has to be depressing
As much as I love Rapture, I was always so disappointed they just went right back to it lol especially when they have this awesome, new crazy city. Massive missed opportunities is pretty much the definition of Infinite
The Daisy Fitzroy retcon was more than just racism. The Bioshock series overall has taken a very "libertarian" ideal, regarding the thought that anyone who becomes too focused on an idea can take it to destructive extremes; basically a "both sides"-ism at work. Thus Bioshock 1, the issues with objectivism and capitalism, while Bioshock 2, its polar opposite, collectivism. The problem with Daisy came in that in Infinite, it was trying to "both sides" both Columbia, with its investure in both American Exceptionalism ("can do no wrong") as well as heavy Christianity and religion, vs Daisy's Vox Populi (Voice of the people) which Infinite tries to show would be just as bad as Comstock in controlling Columbia.....except the Vox were fighting against things people agree should be fought against: racism, the tyranny of state-sponsored religion, the rewriting of history in order to continue lies. These facts are why showing Daisy as willing to murder the boy was such a hullabaloo; She had done nothing to really show the extremism in thought that the Bioshock series loved to take a centrist view on.
It's true that we see very little of the darkest side of the Vox in the base game, but I think that's due to them being confined to Finkton and only killing police before Daisy's death. It was more apparent in the pre release footage, but the main "point" of the Vox so to speak is that most populist revolutions are composed of a few idealists and a lot of opportunists. There may be some like Daisy who are truly in it for the social change (though these types can often take it too far and take it out on the innocent) but by and large most people are just going to take it as an excuse to rape and pillage whatever they can.
@@nathancollins1715 Yes. Revolution has never worked out for the common people because it depends by its nature on ideology, and ideology assumes conformity without scrutiny. Trusting the "grand plan" even when it seemingly has major flaws.
The "both sides are equally bad" argument isn't that all policies are equally bad, but that both sides can use ideology, regardless of what the ideology is, to introduce bad policy. Saying "X is bad and should be Y" is an idea that doesn't actually consider the practical ramifications of enforcing policies to that end. I think we all agree that hunger is bad and should be eliminated but there's no solution offered in that statement. You can motivate almost any food-related policy under that guise given enough propaganda, like murdering half your population to feed the other half, or turning all the national parks into corn fields. What is an idea worth?
Additionally, it's a completely sensible assumption that the violent revolutionary leader, regardless of lofty ideals, is lacking in national economics, foreign diplomacy and everyday meat-and-potatoes politics. Things important to running a prosperous country. It's just not how you end up leading a large group of very angry people.
The fact the game skips what should have been an act made to show Daisy going nuts slowly as the characters realize the Vox are just as bad as the Columbia government really damaged the overall story.
I think that having a revolution go to the extreme is reasonable, but it was not set up
I actually assumed that 'red scare' Daisy were actually in a different timeline, were probably Comstock government pushed oppression even further, which forced this Daisy to be much more brutal than than one we initially met.
Burial At Sea is nothing but rushed fan fiction
It kinda feels like that, yeah.
@James Gk I swear to God, they did Fitzroy and Songbird dirty.
@@aleisinwndrlen7113 All to appease woke game journalists
@James Gk They literally said that Daisy's death was racist lol
@James Gk They're horrible at the games they report on too like that journalist who couldn't get past the tutorial in Cuphead for example
The introduction of Elizabeth will now make any "-shock" game that comes from Irrational try to include the motifs of a lighthouse and the story beats that Infinite and Bioshock 1 shared, and will most definitely try to wedge lighthouse symbolism into places like Citadel Station.
It is done well in Burial At Sea to the point that it isn't mentioned though. Cohen's Art Studio is a lighthouse, and there's even a strange tie to his painting resebling songbird's cracked eye, and when you wake up in his Bathysphere and see an amber light similar to songbird as well
I wouldn't be surprised if they retcon this ending in Burial at Sea to Elizabeth pulling some Houdini magic and duplicating herself, with the duplicate being the one that dies at the end of this dlc; so that she can cheat death and appear in the new game. Would not surprise me at all, since they've done it already in this very story.
Oh no, Irrational Games closed down the moment burial at sea part 2 came out.
@@Professional_Ghost To be fair, they could bring her back the same way Eleanor brought Delta back: Using her hair sample from Columbia.
@@laylamorrison9596 Like a clone? Yeah I can see that.
Something that really bothered me is how the handling of little sisters in this game completely undermines the big sister's trauma in bs2. Maybe I'm just a little too empathetic to fictional characters, but the big sisters always had this terrible tragedy to them that fit the themes of the first two bioshocks so well imo. I mean think about it, they're kind of like bad end versions of Jack; children who were taken away from the lives they should've had and turned into weapons, the big sisters just never escaped the cycle of abuse.
And as much as BaS harps on about cycles of trauma and the value of childhood/how rapture stole it from these kids, it just. doesn't give a shit about them (or bs2 in general) at all. It especially feels scummy due to what Elizabeth did to Sally and the people aboard the plane, she comes off as REALLY selfish there if you ask me, like, there's absolutely no care given for these girls as much as Ken likes to say there is.
The way the DLC is written honestly just enables the abuse of the sisters more than anything, it takes agency away from any character who isn't Elizabeth, and she's treated like a good person despite being horrifically self-serving.
* quick edit: loved your idea for an alternate world with little brothers, that would've been so cool. AUs can be fun! You just. Have to know what you're doing.
Wait, if theres little brothers, does that mean they would have *b i g m o m m i e s* ?
@@seeeds4702 that’s Elizabeth
@@seeeds4702 I think if there’s a darker tone it would be the Big sisters became the Big Mommies who gave birth to Little sisters and Little brothers. Thus the cycle would than continue through lineage where they became the Big daddies and mommies, and so forth
For me Infinite just never really made sense just due to how messy Infinite universe plot can be. Honestly if they left it to just rapture I think it would have been fine. Or the third game could have revisited Rapture in a more degraded state than it was. Modern explorer would find it and the whole plot would just be getting the F out of dodge due to how more insane the splicers have become.
@@seeeds4702 Instead of a drill they chase you around with a shoe
16:54 Ah, yes, Ken Levine's never ending obsession with menstrual blood. Thanks for bringing attention to Daisy Fitzroy's spineless retcon.
Ken "she bleedy, she ready-to-breedy" Levine
I don't think it was a retcon. It's another universe Daisy.
Wait, this isn't the only time he's made a reference like this?
@@flarestorm9417 He's made quite a few. It's been a while since I played it but I specifically remember a menarche rag that you can mess with, in the game. Ken Levine is a bit of a kook.
@@MarkaNgamer Either way, it's still shitty writing.
Its actually genious that he put in infinite universes before he did his indulgent writing in of his setting into the original
Bioshock 1, Bioshock 2 and Minerva's Den: The Rapture Saga
Bioshock Infinite, Burial at sea Ep. 1 and Ep. 2: The Elizabeth Saga
In my personal opinion, I totally enjoyed Bioshock Infinite more than their dlc's because the thing that made me furious was how they change the lore of the original Bioshock 1 in the dlc's of Infinite and the fact that the story of Bioshock Infinite in Columbia was really good in my opinion and also the gameplay.
P. S.
Minerva's Den was far a better dlc than Burial at sea which how the Infinite dlc's name suggests... that it should have been buried at sea in the first place.
2 has always been my favorite when I tried to play this game it seemed like a mess I played 10 minutes and quit playing.
Sometimes I just rewatch your videos in the background because I can’t find anything fresh and better on youtube
Thanks for making this video man, glad it's not another one of those "Why Burial At Sea is the best DLC for a game" type videos. Great constructive look at them!
In hindesight infinite along with Elizabeth with her puppy blue eyes seduced a whole generation of gamers
But don't get off to her or Papa Ken will get mad.
Kinda interesting considering her most famous outfit presses her boobs together and lets you look straight down her cleavage. Mixed messages, Kenny.
and ofc, a number of them truly were, "seduced" as you put it. (insert ken levine tweet asking deviantart people to stop making elizabeth smut here. )
That's true
I admit that the final ending of a whole made me sad. On a positive note, seeing rapture before the war was beautiful.
19:47
I could've sworn there was a recording from Suchong explaining that the big daddys only responded when any little sister called and for the rest of the time didn't follow them cus they weren't bonded.
There's one of Gil Alexander talking about that. But he didn't take over the Protector Program until after Suchong died. This is still a flaw with Burial since Suchong's death shows the very first, initial bond as rudimentary as it was.
@@redraptorwrites6778 "Sshh.. we don't talk about BioShock 2" - Ken Levine probably
Wow, thanks for this video! You perfectly encapsulated why I hated Burial at Sea so much. Ken Levine having such a hard-on for Elizabeth being the centre of everything ruined the franchise (not really).
I think the actress who voiced Elizabeth is a lawyer now lol
Is she really? Well, good on her.
@2 Corinthians 4:7-11 well she was going to law school while doing the voice acting of Burial at Sea
@2 Corinthians 4:7-11 She can still be lawyer and do voice acting lol
Of the many MANY terrible aspects of Infinite and this DLC in particular, the most egregious to me in shoe-horning Elizabeth into the Rapture story. Irrational made the original characters completely incompetent just so the player can pick up the pieces here. For example, why the heck does Atlas need Elizabeth to bring him the "Ace in the hole" (a phrase that's been forever ruined) when he specifically planned everything about Jack in the original. Fontaine said that he ordered him up, "like a Chinese dinner".
"I miss... the idea of it. But not the truth; the weakness."
Elizabeth, a SFM video icon.
2:56 to 3:07 is where it's at. Thanks, Zone.
oh boy you have no idea how low in popularity elizabeth is in that department
Weirdos & creeps
I'll sum up your infinite reviews "just play bioshock 2"
And he's right.
"I die a little inside with every page view."
And even YOU can't stop, so God help the rest of us.
What confuses me is the timeline because if you look at Booker’s calendar it says December 31, 1958 so they’re going into the new year of 1959 the opening cut scene in BioShock one when we are introduced to Jack says 1960 so did it take Atlas a year to get in contact with Jack?
Only a few select people can use a bathysphere to leave Rapture to relay the message to get Jack on the plane.
And any former "allies" who challenged Ryan wound up on his "wall".
Unfortunately , they never go into detail about who got Jack on the plane.
We are having so much stories exploring multiverse right now (Especially the awesome Everything everywhere All at Once) that bioshock infinite and DLC concepts are looking even more poorly conceived by comparison. It's not aging well at all.
Am I the only one that found it weird that the developer guy even KNOWS about the Elizabeth p*rn, especially after he just claimed the Elizabeth character was like a daughter to him?
And on DEVIANTART of all places?
If bioshock 4 was made, ther could have the lady thar tried to help the little sisters bring elizabeth to life through the device that was in game respawns the main charzcters.
"They wrote themselves into a corner with this whole infinite universes idea"
Seriously... Bioshock infinite was fine, up until the story went off a cliff and into irritating nonsense land.
The Burial at Sea Elizabeth also gets the title of having the hardest working shirt-buttons in the business
I wish they'd have added a reference to Burial At Sea in the remaster... Like around the point where Jack finds Dr. Suchong, Jack can find her body and there could be a short audio clip or Atlas can come on the radio and mention how he remembers her being Cohen's songbird for a while there, and how he was starting to wonder what had happened to her... (or that she's lucky to not have been trapped with Cohen)
Or have a moment in Bioshock 2 while playing as Delta, and have a moment where you can see the remains of Songbird on the seafloor, just outside the map or something as a little easter egg for the people who played Infinite or it's DLC.
"Remind me again why Courtney Draper hasn't done anything since?"
Not 100% sure on this, but, I always attribute it to the way Levine treated her. It looked like it was a miserable experience for her despite her fantastic work.
Ken Levine is a bit of a tyrant from what I've heard. Considering Infinite had been rehashed for like, 4 different times before its release, it shouldn't come off as a surprise that she was mistreated in the process as well.
Ken Levine is kinda like Ryan and Atlas.
I believe she was also pursuing a law education/career at the time, so maybe she's pivoted to that in the years since?
I feel like Burial at Sea was meant to drag back original Bioshock fans like myself that preferred the Ayn Rand inspired dystopia of Rapture before the dimension-hopping and time travel of Infinite...but all they did was taint the original story with said dimension-hopping and time travel along with destroying any likable aspects of the characters.
No joke, I think the only good thing to come from this trash was the Rapture Elizabeth character model. I say both honestly and out of spite.
The only way Comstock is “the last Comstock” is if he’s the equivalent to the reverse flash in the events flashpoint. Even then it’s still a plot hole
Man i am so glad i found this video. You got my sub for your views well stated opinions and the love for bioshock 2
“Just go play BioShock 2. It’s the best BioShock.”
Ah, a fellow man of culture. ❤️
That ending had me in STITCHES! Another banger of a video.
Thanks again to Dustandmarbles for providing the video intro!
Would you kindly check out her excellent Bioshock 2 Animated Music Video?
• ua-cam.com/video/1n8MMb_7zeE/v-deo.html&t
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there is something very sinister about bioshock infinite, i suspect black magic was used in making the game. when your playing it you have an overwhelming sense of hatred directed at you THE PLAYER! the emotions is conjures up are so dark and depressing all without a proper story to make sense of it all. this game was designed to make you feel bad, to hurt your soul
The dumbest thing about BioShock Infinite is it's constants and variables bs. Because if there's an infinite amount of Comstocks out there, along with Bookers and Elizabeths, then there should be an infinite amount of Atlases, Andrew Ryans, Jacks, Deltas, Eleanors and many other "important" characters. But no, for some reason, only Elizabeth and Booker can have their multiverse of clones. That's moronic. And this is where the franchise killed itself. I've no idea what Bio4 is going to be about, although I do remember hearing something about a city where one half of the city lives a luxurious life while the bottom half lives in poverty (more or less), but this idea of such a city would also have to have its own multiverse of copies. Then again, shouldn't there be a billion of other Ruptures and Columbias in the sea of stars? Man, this was poorly written. And yet another note: if there are constants and variables, shouldn't there exist a world where this Sally girl isn't dead or in danger? Again, poorly written garbage. Burial at Sea just ruined the universe, its metaphysical rule set.
what annoys me the most about Bioshock Infinite and the DLC is the very premise it's built upon or more specifically the fact that like all time travel fiction they ignore / retcon the main flaw.
the flaw being that if somebody from the future has to go back into the past to fix/ stop events happening then there won't be any reason for them to exist in the future to go back.
so in the context of Bioshock Infinite if Elizabeth kills every Booker/ Comstock then she wont have been born and can't go back and kill him. it doesn't matter about constants and variables because if Booker doesn't exist then she can't go back and kill him.
It's really sad to see so many people acting like infinite is some kind of masterpiece.
Is that an April's fools joke? Bioshock Infinite is no means a masterpiece because they pull a 360 at the end making the ending useless with the multiverse crap and how all of them lead to the same outcome. Lazy writing 101
Feel like it was Kevin Levine saying you can't touch bioshock now or keeping his toys to himself by doing this and infinite cloud chamber has to probably now do there own story cause of how much of mess Kevin Levine left for 2k games
It’s okay I like it .. just not one of those cry baby gamers
It was the start of one of the first big hype titles in modern gaming, peak E3 marketing if you will, but yeah played it once and never went back to it, compared to B1 which of be probably played through about 8 times
@@Legion849 It's July
Ya know, I very much enjoyed the Burial At Sea DLC when it first came out. When I replayed it via the remaster a year or so ago and I was baffled as I didn't enjoy as much. This comes after completing Inifinite, Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den.
Bioshock 2 is among my favorites. Those endings! Such tragedy, such beauty, such loss, such hope.
Bioshock peak with 2 and minerva’s den no discussion
Last good Bioshock
When infinite came out, blender updated their animation systems. People were making a bunch of porn with Elizabeth and needed the tools to do it and since blender is free and open source, a bunch of upgrades were made, some from the developers and a bunch from fans. XD
dude actually pronounced tears like tears lmao
I think they couldve done a more dlc outcome with bioshock infinite After all having infinite universes makes infinite possibilities so they could've just added short stories like what if Andrew Ryan faked his death or something sure it would've probably cost a lot but hey its a neat idea
great video, glad u got to it!
As much as it isn’t perfect. That lobotomy scene is genuinely thrilling.
Atlas was my favourite character from the first BioShock, funnily enough. He was great there, and he was great in Burial at Sea. I'm a sucker for characters with unique accents like himself and Sinclair from BioShock 2.
Part 1 ending also. Brutal.
Elizabeth was the first video game crush many of us had
This comment made me feel very old
Yeah, wtf, this game isn't even old yet.
@@stillmorereviews9114 Same lol
Jaina Proudmoore from Warcraft 3 was the very first of my video game crushes. It makes me feel even more older.
Jesus. I can feel myself turning into dust.
The nonsensical plot twist at the end of PT 1 soured me on the whole series. And I wasn't too terriglybfond of Infinite in the first place.
I think the Big Daddy saved Sally because Little Sisters are an asset for Rapture.
It's a Big Daddy's function to maintain Rapture after all.
one thing im thinking about from this game "what the fuck am i looking at"
lol that writing, George Lucas'd his own franchise even harder
maaaaaan it would'a been cool to have a dlc based on citadel station with booker n elizabeth experiencing shodan's take over!
I kinda wish they made a DLC of the Battle at Wounded Knee and maybe even a remake of Comstocks rewrite of Wounded knee. (Part one being a gritty war story and part two being a cartoonish power fantasy that makes a mockery of part 1)
The "Mr Bubbles!!" and the apearence of a big daddy and realising that I was fucked cuz of Infinites gameplay compared to B1 and 2 had me litteraly screaming in fear and terror
I thought Fontaine would put Elizabeth and Sally in a bathysphere at the end of Burial at sea 2, the very same bathysphere that explodes in Bioshock 1 supposedly with Atlas's "family" inside. Oh well...
2:49 you cant stop the internet
Okay, I get that Andrew Ryan is a bit of a *rabid* libertarian... but he's supposed to be smart. And a smart person doesn't push forward the idea that public health is only for those with expendable wealth *IN A CLOSE-QUARTERS CITY WITH STAGNANT AIR THAT IS CONSTANTLY BEING RECYLCED.* Anyone who's gotten far enough in Oxygen Not Included knows what I'm talking about. Not only should you be crowding everyone into the doctor's office, you should making it *mandatory.*
I’m my opinion, they didn’t need to make bioshock infinite or it’s dlc connected to the first game , I’d be fine with them mentioning Andrew Ryan but , by this point Ryan would probably be a young man by the base game but bioShock infinite should have been it’s stand alone thing .
All this, yes. But also... How does Elizabeth travel back to Columbia when the ending of the main game had her literally (supposedly) destroy _every_ timeline in which it existed, the whole point of drowning Booker/Comstock was to erase every timeline in which he went on to create Columbia. I can buy a version of Comstock still existing by essentially not being in his home dimension when it is erased but Elizabeth cannot go _back_ to Columbia after she has erased its timeline.
It's like in Back to the Future 2 when they can't return to the future to stop Old Biff from going to the past (because that future no longer exists from their present), they can only move to the past to steal the almanac from Young Biff after Old Biff gives it to him.
Plus their explanation for her losing her godlike powers and becoming killable again is that while she was immortally unkillable she was killed by a Big Daddy?? If I as Booker can shoot the Luteces at point blank range to no effect whatsoever (in the main game) then how the blazes was a Big Daddy able to kill a similarly 'outside of physical reality' being?
Burial at Sea makes me feel really sad for Elizabeth. She was so sweet, but the world ground her into dust. She didn’t deserve what she got. Not by a long shot.
She cooked alive a child to get revenge on an old man. And then she made it so an entire plane full of people would crash into the sea, to kickstart the events of BS1.
I kindly disagree with your last statements, sir.
Burial at Sea:
Me: Look how they masscarued my [daughter].
its shocking how bioshock infinite still has overall rating of Overwhelming posivite ratings on steam
@James Gk no, really?
@James Gk halo games within mcc is all good between each games campaing. not at bad as bioshock infinite, and i think your going off this topic
@James Gk not the point and topic of my first comment above and halo isnt worst then bioshock infinite, when it comes to the specific game in a series, as such as infinite in the bioshock series is terrible vs the other bioshock games
@@iamboringvideos6832 what did he say?
I enjoyed Infinite but the ending was such a cop out. As you said it creates so many plotholes that can not be easily filled.
One of my favorite creators, love the videos
Bioshock 2 gang all day
the two little sisters at 19:32 were mention in bioshock 1
Your takeaway from the Ryan the Lion segment has to be one of the strangest takeaways anyone has had from the plot of Bioshock
Shortly before Infinite was released, it was reported that one of Irrational's key employees wanted to leave the company, because they had religious objections with the game's ending. Levine said in an interview that as he wanted to keep that employee on board, he sat down with and talked to them about their point of view, and then decided to change the ending within the final three months of release, explaining the nonsensical final act of that game.
I am mentioning this because Burial at Sea was quite obviously already in development at that point, with the story based on Infinite's original ending. While we don't know what that ending entails (and probably never will), it can be concluded that Elizabeth didn't become a demigod (as she was meant to die in BaS) but Booker did (explaining his constant appearance as a vision in part 2 of the DLC). Of course, when the ending of the base game was changed, the plot of the DLC had to be adjusted accordingly, leading to those handwaved explanations of storybeats that directly contradict Infinite's final ending.
And it was all for nothing, as Irrational was closed after Infinite concluded, so that employee who caused this mess was gone anyways.
Finally someone pointed out the red conning of Daisy, it bugged me what they did with her character they made her something that had her fall into a bloodlust tragedy which is more understandable to a “Oh I guess Elizabeth needs character development. Guess I’ll die.” It always bugged me they did that too her character.
The lobotomy scene had me squirming in my chair while I was playing it for the first time. Absolutely horrific in the best way possible.
Oh, a big reason why they would have used the Department Store as a prison instead of Persephone is that Atlas/Fontaine and his men were already in there. Much easier to just sink the store and cut off their routes of escape than to bother wasting men's lives in a bloodbath fighting the parasites. Plus Persephone was more about making problematic individuals disappear, not processing an army.
That fact that it just completely ignores bioshock 2 makes me mad