What is Subculture | What is Goth | Why Does it Matter
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- Paul Hodkinson's 4 indicators of subcultural substance:
Consistent distinctiveness, in that the group shares a consistency of style, tastes, and values, that are distinct from other groups. (accounting for slight variation between individuals)
Identity, in that "participants have a clear and sustained subjective sense of group identity" a sense of like-mindedness with other goths regardless of geographic location, and [the subculture is] often regarded as the single most important part of their identity.
Commitment, in that participation in the subculture "accounts for a considerable proportion of free time, friendship patterns, shopping routes, collections of commodities, going out habits and even internet use."
Autonomy, in that while still part of society and the politico-economic system of that country, "a good proportion of the productive or organizational activities which underpin it (the subculture) are liable to be undertaken by and for enthusiasts."
Goth as a subculture is marked by an emphasis on a distinct, structured homology of culture, whose ideologies, material objects, and rituals are shared through substantive interaction, common identity, and shared meaning, rather than as raw materials to be harvested by ephemeral, multi-affiliated post subculturalists.
My 4 markers of a goth identity:
1. An appreciation of goth music
2. Aesthetic deviance that aligns with the sartorial idioms of goth.
3. Embracing darkness (manifest as an appreciation of the macabre, Gothic literature, finding beauty in the uncanny and abnormal, etc)
4. An active pursuit of incorporating these ideologies, material objects, and rituals into substantive, communal interaction. (lifestyle curation)
References:
Derek Sweet's Paper: www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10...
Paul Hodkinson's Book: www.amazon.com/Goth-Identity-...
Paul Hodkinson on post-subcutlturalists: www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10...
Nephilim Incorruptus Video: • Goth Definition & Why ...
Catherine Spooner on The Gothic as a Revivalist movement: www.amazon.com/Contemporary-G...
Lexicography and the evolution of language: bigthink.com/think-again-podca...
Ageing in Spectacular Youth Culture (Cemetery Confessions): www.thebelfry.rip/blog/2016/5/...
Ageing in Spectacular Youth Culture (book): www.amazon.com/Ageing-Youth-C... - Розваги
Whenever I try to explain the relationship between goth music and the gothic subculture by comparing it to another culture, I usually use Gamers as an example. If you latch onto the label of a Gamer, it's expected that you at least play games. Playing games doesn't necessarily make you a Gamer, that's up to the individual to label themselves as that if they feel video games and the culture around that is intergral to their identity. Likewise, most people who identify as Gamers tend to have merchandise and collections but thats not necessary in order to be one. However, it's hard for people to accept someone who may own merchandise, may even like watching other people playing games, but who doesnt play anything themselves. I think that analogy is easier for a wider array of individuals to understand, especially the younger generation.
This is the most eloquent and thorough explanation I’ve heard on defining Goth. Thank you for your service! 🦇
I appreciate your use of inclusive language for the points of being Goth ("desire to," "intent," etc). There can be a lot of limiting factors in our lives: budget, isolation, disability, chronic health issues, expectations from parents, school, or work... But the intent and desire may still be firmly in place. Thankfully I still have the music and love of the macabre (anyone else watch forensics shows to relax?), even if I don't have the strength to be active in some of the other points very often.
That's exactly what I was going for, and the considerations I tried to keep in mind, thank you!
Or in otherworlds - Thank you for being VAGUE so we can change solids into liquids.
totally loved this. I know so well being forced to conform to other expectations for jobs ect I felt miserable that I had to suppress who I was. Goth is very much part of my identity and culture. I built my life and dreams around it. My passions, hobbies, inspirations and motivations are from the music, philisophies, art, literature and aesthetic. It drove me to pursue exploring the subculture across the country then to Germany. I find beauty, happiness and peace in darkness. My dad asked if I would be goth even when I am elderly. I was like hell yeah. Its such a part of my life he will never fully understand.
Thank you for the kind words and your story.
I'm Goth but when u do a job the job is about the job not about You . I work In. Healthcare my job is helping the residents who are blind and downs syndrome it's about them NOT me . The company pays me to dress professionally ,look appropriate and do my job. I dress Goth when I'm off work and I'm Goth mentally 24/7 anyway
A job isn't about you !!!!!! It's about the job!!!!! It really bothers me how some can't get this . If I own a company I'm not paying to hear and watch u ramble about ureself and want u want . I'm paying you to do a job , I give medications , i assist residents so they can be safe , in all aspects of daily care .
I don't care who u are a job isn't about u per say it's an employer paying u to not complete tasks
If u got hired at Field and stream than I guess it would be appropriate to wear outdoor attire . If u got hired at a psychic reading fair than by all means dress Goth . But to say society doesn't accept u becasue an employer wants u to just do ure job and be about the job is absurd and just irrational
@@janityy nobody gives a shit how you feel.
I am glad we can stand up and say this is a subculture and not a youth culture. This subculture was born from people of all ages, not exclusively children.
Thank you for making such an effort explaining things in such an calm and structural way :-)
The idea that goths view things through a darker filter/lens is something I've always thought was really interesting. It's certainly something quite true for most of us; however, what interests me the most is the question of why? Is it a choice? Something related to one's upbringing? Or perhaps it's biologically determined in some way.
Accumortis , for me having a dark outlook is my way of cutting though the saccharin bullshit of the mainstream culture in the US. I really want to know the realities of life, even the dark ones. Found it helped my expectations and a way to maneuver through life with eye wide open. serious red pill outlook.
Oh my god... this channel is everything I wanted and never knew about... you are even a structural functionalist... how do you do this, how do you speak direkty to my heart? I feel so warm and at home...
I'm so sorry, I'm over sharing here and this will be a very long response. I love your video. I think it really helps people who have been told they are not goth, or goth is dead because not everyone has the resources or support group to really dive more deeply into the goth subculture. I was fortunate and lived near an amazing club that had goth night and 'balls' and you could connect with amazing musicians and people. Despite my chronic anxiety disorder, and ptsd, I never felt unaccepted with my people, I always felt like I walked into my literal version of the afterlife and this is waht it truely feels to be reborn and alive again. Living in the day to day of society is soul sucking.
THat said, in your final points you make about goths repressing or being suppressed really hit home for me. When I got out of uni in 2017 I found myself caring about what my employers would think of me dressing goth and walking around with a old school ipod listening to goth music on my lunch break, or even while working if allowed, living in my own little world. I never changed who I was, but I didn't make many positive work associates. I was bullied, and sexually harassed. Guys looked at me like that goth fetish to pursue, women were scared to even talk to me, and it seemed the only people who were welcoming were others who had something else society shunned about them. I"m totally fine telling 99 percent of people to go F themselves, I just want to keep a job, you know? So this led to me sticking to myself, and as a loner, that worked out for me. I like socializing with people who get me in small amounts and forced socializing makes me hostile. So it was easy for me to scare people off, but, we shouldn't have to build up walls just to go to work every day when we're fantastic workers and we're there to work, not to be judged for who we are as people. Mind you my career is in the life sciences. It wasn't until I got into academic research labs writing manuscripts for peer reviewed literature, and far far away from high throughput testing labs, did I feel comfortable being myself. Management was totally different and everyone was on some level neurodivergent, creative thinkers, who just wanted to get data for the research--the high school BS was left at the door so to speak. We just cared if we were smart enough to test this hypothesis and get data for publications.
Now that I'm fully disabled due to medical neglect I'm finding that society in general misjudges goths, but they misjudge disabled goths even more LOL. It's very weird, but when people do not see me I have found they think I'm brilliant, lovely, nice person, very self-aware, etc. all the compliments, but as soon as they see me, know I'm disabled, they automatically think Goth = Satanic worshiper and refuse to even listen to a word I have to say, let alone my musical recommendations! Alternatively, I get told to make an Only Fans if I can't get a job because I'm disabled and employers refuse to accommodate me. O.O So F'in irritating. GOTH CHICKS ARE NOT SOME DAMN FETISH TO JACK OFF TO. Ugh. F off. Or the dreaded "You're too old to be goth." Like being goth has an expiration date. LOL
Its sad, but society caters towards the norm, and the norm is largely able bodied people who all listen to the latest music and dress in the latest trending clothes and have the same family values and economic mindset of buying more and more because materialistic things = happiness. When you go philosophical on them, look remotely different, or behave even slightly different, they just shun you. So now I'm trying to rebrand my career, become a freelancer and do something creative on Etsy on the side to make money because I cannot exist in a world that will judge you for how you look and what you listen to, for your views of life, death and rebirth and the Universal whole. I cannot exist in a world that sees you as a thing to be sexually used rather than seen as a valuable vibrant soul capable of bringing positive transformative ideas and actions. I need purpose in life and living in the 'norm' just doesn't do that for me. I'd rather just die and be reborn and hope the next life is better, feel me? LOL Just be yourself, and if you die in the process, at least you died with dignity. Rather than the old saying of "Fake it, until you make it."
Took me so damn long to get to this!
And I want to thank you so much for your (repeated) exhumation of the concepts from my original goth definition video, but more specifically for making of it an exploded model, if you will, and letting us all see it for what it is: a fairly sound definition of a goth identity. I like to think if I'd spent more time on it, I'd have instead crafted my video into "A Definition of What it is to be Goth." Because it really is a perspective more of who individual goths are than a description of the culture as a whole.
And I love that we get to revisit it, to lift the lid of the coffin once more and look at the corpse with clearer eyes, better tools.
Loved this video so much. I think there are definitely things that are goth and things that are not goth. For example just because I am goth and I like Empire Records that does not automatically make it a gothic film and it doesn't make any logical sense for me or other goth people who enjoy that film to argue that it is goth and get defensive. That would be inane. I think some people are afraid of offending people and they don't like voicing their opinions. I think there are a lot of misconceptions particularly with the media of someone being called goth just because they wear black and like Tim Burton. That doesn't necessarily mean they are goth or define themselves as in the goth subculture. I am not afraid of voicing my opinions and I know some people get annoyed but oh well. I love what you said about there being a piece of the puzzle missing if someone doesn't like goth music. I have friends who are goth and like goth music but I have friends who are more darkly inclined and they like the clothing/aesthetics but do not like the music. For me personally, goth music is incredibly important and I would feel in a sense naked without it. I can't really explain it but I hope that makes sense. It would definitely feel like something was missing for me. I do love all these other beautiful things but literature, music and other things are so important in the subculture and when I meet people who haven't heard of different things I try to educate them and I hope others educate me as well if there is an artist, writer or musician new/current or in the past who I have not heard of. Thank you for being such an inspiration and continuing good conversations for the community.
Adding the sociological perspective is greatly illuminating. Another excellent video Daniel. Thank you.
A big hello and a huge THANK YOU for all your effort from Estonia, city of Tallinn!!!
Found The Cemetery Confessions podcast not so long ago, and I can honestly say I am addicted in the best way possible. Can not wait to hear and learn more.
Thank you so much!
Really good videos and interesting points!
I fully agree with the "points for being a goth" part. Music is indeed a big piece for the goth puzzle, but I do not think that you can call a single piece a subculture. The mind set and aesthetic that we can see and hear in the songs/artists of goth, are present in our everyday lives too.
About the "truth" part, in my opinion, there are many opinions, but only one truth. In the example of the pikes, 2 parties state their point of view, their opinions, but only one is right, only one is telling the truth.
Goth may not have an... authority that can dictate for example what is and what isn't goth, but we can form a valid opinion based on logic, evidence and common acceptance of people that are active in the subculture for a long time (note: of course individual opinions are not proof of truth, but they can help base a structure) as to whether or not something can enter the little box that we call goth.
(exuse my poor english, greetings from Hellas)
Totally agree.
absolutely loved this video, very informative and well though out, thankyou
Thank you very much for this video! At the moment I am researching style as identity with a couple of Gothic rock musicians as case studies, and I found your video extremely enlightening.
That's wonderful! You may enjoy some of my other videos in this series, but if you'd like I can also send some papers to you on that subject. I'd also love to read your research once you've completed it if you'd like to share. My email is cemeteryconfessions@gmail.com
I love the amount of research you do in these and how you manage to keep it so well on track and focused to the point, knowing the right times to digress and not interrupting yourself like a lot of others (like myself) would do even with all that research x3
Also I think you got a really good voice, lol
But might I suggest adding in some (possibly extreemly soft) music of some kind in the background. It doesn't even have to be from a major artist or anything if you're worried about copyrights/strikes, cuz there's plenty of 'smaller' easier to contact artists on youtube that would probably be down with letting you use some of their stuff. Peter Gundry and Brunuh Ville are just two I know, and tend to have some pretty moody tracks but also have some more lively ones too. But these are just suggestions though, not trying to change your show on you.
great content!!! It was clearing to my mind
This was really helpful and refreshingly intellectual. Thanks :)
A yummy video I can save for later! 🤗
I didn’t expect that deep voice I heard!
I thought you were a Wee boy! 😆
Bauhaus is my first & last love 💔
You pretty much said everything I thought as well and it's nice to see more people talking about it.I'm happy that you still managed to state about the music which seems to get a little thrown to the side in modern days but I feel that Goth, no matter how many years we pass, it's going to be a music-based subuculture and in order to be considered "goth", you should at least enjoy or appreciate some of the music even if you don't listen to it religious. I liked how you brought the punk analogy into it because it was pretty common where I lived, well back when I was in California haha.
You're right though. Gothic isn't something that can be necessarily abandoned. It can grow with you because Gothic is always going to be here in many shapes and forms and that's why you're more likely to see older people in their 50s-60s+ still love Gothic just as much as they did when they were younger. Heck, I know that I'll always be into Gothic when I'm well into my 50s lol
Great vid!
Kai Decadence I'll be 50 in 7 years. o m g.
Haha cool
It is really an interesting topic, personally, I always had a love for the dark side of life, the gothic, romantic and fantastic litterature, the goth music and to some extent of what is possible in my day to day life, the look. But for me it is more one part of me among others. I would not call myself a goth, especially to other people since I do not want to conform to one community or "tribe" and I am not active in the goth scene. As a multiethnical person, I am more used to take things from my different cultural backgrounds and make it mine.
Great video thanks 😊
Great video
Love your jacket and pins! Where did you get them?
I love your podcasts, BTW 🖤
I know this is a 5 year old video, but you asked what topics that you touched on would we like to hear expounded on.. you mentioned you may do a video looking deeper into the effects of isolation vs. socialisation on an individual's shaping of their identity or lack thereof. As someone who struggles with bpd and long bouts of self-isolation, I would appreciate this subject being covered..or if you have, could you point the way to which vid I might find that in? Thank you 🖤
good point about lawlessness.....i feel youtube scene is lawless at times with everything is goth nothing is goth who is the authority how do we come to an understanding of two seperate truths and you bring up why looking at this has no real good conclusions
Between your podcast and Communion After Dark I get through the tedium of household chores and other daily boring things. I really enjoy your perspective and you remind me of my days in college sitting in Sociology and Psychology classes... That's not a bad thing, I loved those classes. With that being said I don't always agree with what you are saying, but of course we all have our opinions. :-) One thing I have discussed with my boyfriend (he's caught some of your talks in passing) is that the culture of Goth (and Punk, which if my boyfriend identified as anything that would be it) came out of not wanting to conform to anything and being a complete individual, so in essence defining Goth is going against the original fabric of it. Now I know as things have progressed just using the word "Goth" is giving it a definition, which in our human minds we inherently need to categorize everything for descriptive purposes. (like an animals definitive descriptions in taxonomic rank) So there are two sides to this coin, letting Goth be as it was or evolving into defining it more "accurately". And this would be where people become divided and start arguing about it, but for me personally I'm keeping an open mind and listening to all sides. I still have my opinions, but opinions can be malleable to allow growth as an individual. So my personal opinion at this time is that using music as the definition of "being Goth" is not quite a good way to define Goth... And here is why... Many cultures evolve as time goes on, so why does Goth have to be stuck in the 80's with the Bauhaus and Siouxsie? (nothing against them) I know there are a few newer bands with the same type of sound, but the music has evolved into so much more. Much like defining something by Species down to the Domain I think that if we're going to define Goth we need to allow the definition to have a flexibility in some aspects. And in Goth tradition I believe allowing a sort of undefined grey area of the culture is a must... Example... My 9 (almost 10) year old daughter loves creepy cute things, watches classic zombie movies and things like Ruby Gloom, wears a mishmash of pastels and hot pink/purple clothing (on an occasion she wears black), plays creepy video games (or turns them creepy, like minecraft), her music tastes range from things I'm listening to (within what would be considered Goth) to 8 bit and K/J Pop. This is her individual style she's developed and before her I would have laughed at someone calling themselves a Pastel Goth, but now it makes sense to me. (our world is defined by our experiences) But this is the grey area and personally I think it should be left up to the individual to use the definition Goth to identify with, but adding "Pastel" helps explain their Gothness in more detail... I think I'll leave it at that for now, more or less because I've got some things I've got to get done today even though I could go on more about this. Also I'm sure you've got a lot to do as well besides reading my comment. ;-)
Please keep putting your podcasts on UA-cam because I listen through my TV's that are UA-cam capable, as I'm not always near a computer.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment, I'm glad you've been enjoying the show.
When it comes to the idea of goth being purely individualistic, I assume you are referring to the early 80's post punk movement which turned into goth. Something I've talked about before is the massive shift if focus from the 80's to 90's, the latter of which is when the discourse around what goth is and how do we define it as a lifestyle or a music culture or a mindset, really got going. That coupled with the way culture evolves over time, I think, could make a decent case for the evolutionary shift in focus for what goth is today, and what the early 80's post punk explosion in London was.
To lead into my take on the next part of your comment, the two elements that bound the 90's forward goth movement, to the preceding post punk scene, were the music and the spectacular style/semiology. Those two elements have been a fundamental pillar of goth up to today, and are probably the two most spectacular, personally cited, and relatable elements for both outsiders, and insiders who are able to feel like they are part of a rich cultural history. Something we've begun discussing on the podcast though, is the notion that much of the truly innovative and refreshing darker music, is coming from outside of what would be considered the goth scene. I find the argument interesting, but I don't totally buy into it. You do have goth bands retreading old ground, but you also have plenty of bands who in my view, are experimenting and innovating, they just tend to get lost in the shuffle.
I'm all for shades of grey and an element of fluidity, and that in large part, drove how I structured my 4 markers of a goth identity, because it allows for individuals to focus one specific area of interest if they are less interested in the others and still have a degree of flexibility within that one element. While the other markers need to be there, this in essence leads to a homology or amalgam of elements that could identify them as goth, but without needing to stick to such rigid structures they lose themselves.
You are right to point out though, that #1 "An appreciation of or affinity for goth music." is the most rigid of the 4, however I've yet to be convinced we can move goth forward as a meaningful culture by completely abandoning the music. It simply seems to me that music is what kickstarted the whole thing, but beyond that, has woven itself into the fabric of the culture. Also for me, knowing how powerful, unifying, universal, and impactful music is neurologically (some anthropologists theorize that music was an earlier form of communal bonding and communication than language) that the music is a really unifying and deeply personal/meaningful element of goth that drives everything forward. As you stated though, I still remain open to being convinced otherwise.
When it comes to "pastel goth" and how your children identify themselves, I'm really interested in talking about that, but childhood development and fashion groupings (depending on how you define terms) are fairly complex and deserve another diatribe as long or longer than what I've written already! :) I'll try and return with another comment or perhaps base a new video off the discussion.
Again thank you for such a thoughtful comment, these were my initial thoughts but I'll continue to mull over what you've said. :)
It's the end of the day for me and I'm quite a bit tired, so I'll have to come back to your entire response tomorrow when my mind is a bit fresher. Although one thing that came to my mind when you mentioned music having a neurological impact and the theory of communal bonding... Throughout the world there are tribes (cultures) that gather together to dance and sing... Native Americans, African, Middle Eastern, Australian, and even some European. (This is off the top of my head, so I'm sure I'm missing quite a few) The thought is that throughout their history how much of their music has changed? How big are the changes and what drives them? Then we can compare what kind of changes are acceptable in our culture? What we call Goth music had roots before it in Rock and Punk, but it also had a wildly different (yet with similarities) "twin brother" in New Wave... Then they produced all of the various genres we've got now. I think that if someone is not a fan of the original Goth sound, but listens to the spin off genres from it that still makes them Goth related... Like a cousin in the tribe? Sorry I hope I'm making sense, if not let me know and I'll elaborate more tomorrow. :-)
You're welcome. :-)
Yes I was referring to the 80's post punk movement. I definitely agree that it has evolved. Maybe someone can draw a general map, timeline, or "family" tree that could show the evolution? This may help in the general understanding of the evolution for those that are visual learners.
Can you define (give a few examples of bands) the darker music that is coming from outside the goth scene?
I think a part of newer bands getting lost in the shuffle is just the vast amounts of talent that has emerged and for any one person to sift through that is difficult. Maybe if there was a free resource that bands could put their information out to the goth culture then maybe that would help?
Yes, the points of what goth is has a lot of room for individuality, but I think the confusion is when it is said that music is a must to be considered goth. As I said in last nights reply is that some people may not like the original goth style music, but they are really into a lot of the different spin off genres. So does that make them not goth, even if they have other attributes? (I do really like the points though and I have posted on my webpage a reference to Episode 15 of the podcast on UA-cam.)
Actually my daughter has not expressed identifying as pastel goth, but I've noticed many attributes that would define it if she ever does decided to identify with it. I just never thought it was possible till I noticed the direction her interests were going.
I'm not sure if it's where we live or if this is something that kids in her generation are gravitating towards, but there seems to be a lot of kids with very individualist styles and everyone for the most part is accepting of everyone else. Her elementary school is very on point about anti-bullying and "everyone is our friend" attitude, so maybe that is a factor. I'm certainly not complaining if this becomes the trend.
I've been listening to the recent podcast in pieces and so far I'm really enjoying the talk because of being able to identify with thoughts on parenting, so maybe in a future podcast you can get some more parents who's kids are starting to or do identify as goth. :-)
I'm so glad I passed the 5 points on being goth. Music, philosophical aesthetic, embracing of darkness, creating (not taking) and making all of the above part of daily life. I really enjoyed this. Removing yourself from social sects can in fact be empowering as opposed to losing your identity. I tend to disagree with that part. Very succinct and not long enough! ††
cool vid
Have you ever read Catherine Spooner's book, Post-Millennial Gothic: Comedy, Romance and the Rise of Happy Gothic (2017)? It deals with current lifestyles as Goth, in ways that riff off of older notions of the Gothic as constantly evolving in media, from novels, to cinema, to music. Oh, forgive me; I see the link to Spooner, in the description! Of course, the Gothic Revival period was originally the Renaissance, or "gothic" period after the fall of the Roman empire, to which the Neo-Gothic period of the 1700s was merely a revival, but also recombination of old parts responding to a previous iteration.
As for me, I'm always thinking about what the Gothic is, as a scholar of Gothic media, and am planning several projects pertaining to the Gothic and videogames.
mannnn that mainstream job life tho.......every day at my new job they play music and ask what to pick and i'm just silent cause i'm like yeahhhhhhhhhh i don't think post punk is going to be acceptable and meanwhile i have to listen to jarring pop rap and pop music and it's so jarring. i never understand or relate to the small talk at any job and so i feel that. it's a weird thing being plucked away from subculture to survive
Jess in king know the feeling, I work in customer care and have to listen to the same old shite on loop. I'm just happy when I'm on break and can listen to my own stuff
hahaha gurlllll. the thing is it's not even the jobs music tho. they are picking it all the time and listening to it like it's fun and make the work day go by faster and i'm like nooooooooo. i dont' get this shape of you song they keep singing and the title reminds me of an indie song i know and i get so confused.
best believe i rock out en route out route and sometimes during lunch break.
Jess in king yeah lunch break tends to be more who gets to the crew room first. I had to put Communion after dark on in my headphones as someone was blasting Coldplay.. So cringeworthy
so i have a history of coldplay with my music evolution. haha. when i heard them they opened the door to brit rock period for the first time for me. got into oasis and radiohead and the kinks and blur and more. i had a good 2 years or so i was specifcally just listening to that...which eventually shaped why i appreciate goth music today. the elements of brit rock that are in goth is i'm sure apart of what drew me to it. also they riped with me during x and y. idek what they are now but trash. haha...but i can't hate because my intial love for them shapped my rock world
I was feeling the same in my previous job as sales consultant in a big technology store. And also it was it was a struggle to bare the small talks with the collogues most of the times...
Hello! I love your videos. I from Russian, but I'm able to understand English. But most people from here don't. I really want to add a subtitles to your video for russian viewers. Can you activate this function in this video, please? Automatic Russian subtitles are terrible and distort the whole meaning.
That is a great idea, I've just enabled it for all videos, thanks!
Thank you!
I love goth music but I also like other types of music mostly with a darker tint to it but I refuse to limit what I would naturally gain pleasure or meaning from just to conform with others. I still identify as goth I also love metal music but do not identify as a 'metal head' I like a lot of other styles of music even irish pub songs however I have always been a darkly inclined individual and goth music in all it's styles I probably listen to the most and feel the most. I wear mostly but not entirely black and in varying styles I like to do things my own way. But since childhood I loved the macarbe vampires at 5 years old I wanted to watch vampire movies, the paranormal, old black and white horror movies the Adams Family I had a great love of cemetaries and a certain feeling all this brings over you I can't put in words. I have autism I am automatically different in thinking and experiencing the world to most people. One thing though many fail to consider when saying it is only about the music is there are deaf goths who can't hear the music or at least not the way a person who is not deaf to some degree can so that is almost excluding people on a disability. It is not so black and white excuse the pun. I live mostly isolated in an Australian rural area I still dress in a way that turns some heads but there is no scene here no clubs only one or 2 other gothically inclined people I know around here my experience has no real tribal kind of thing where lots of like minded people can get together so I make my own path every day. I am also an artist and most of what I make is gothic inspired.
Regarding your second point: the departure from media culture, doesn't that suggest that goth is in some ways a counter-culture?
You bring up some great points and this is a great video, but I am going to disagree a bit. I think belonging to a subculture is mostly about practicing what the subculture is all about and interacting with other members of said subculture. As far as identity goes I think part of it is also aspirational and part of it is about socialization. You see a group decide you want to be a part of, you learn about and adopt the values and practices of the group, and interact with the group. In doing so you become part of the subcultural group identity. Whatever you "truly are on the inside" doesn't matter so much, no one is likely to know. I don't really belief there is a true self to begin with either though. Pretty much, to use an aphorism, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . .
That said it's rarely ever that simple, people don't typically fit into neat little boxes. To use myself as an example, I used to be really into goth during undergrad, but kind of drifted away, just didn't find myself gellling with some other people in the subculture. But I still like the music and some stuff peripherally related to the subculture, can sometimes occasionally look the part, and find myself going to clubs, discussing stuff online and generally following the scene to some degree. I don't really identify with the subculture anymore, but at the same time sometimes I question myself based on my involvement level.
I agree on most parts but in practice my sense of where things are going with the subculture right now is very different. I think this might be in part by a portion of the community feeling that the "traditional" stuff is being threatened. You speak of culture as being multifaceted and that goth does have many different aspects. And I agree. But in real practical terms there seems to be many who will say that and then turn around and essentially tell you that the only part that really matters is that you listen to the "right" music. This also seems to me to be geocentric too in the sense that it seems to be more a North American goth thing to obsess with nailing down the subculture to a very narrow musical genre that say it's hayday 40 years ago now (or 20 plus years for Industrial). And frankly I see that as part of the problem with the die off of the subculture here because frankly those musical movements are not where the new blood is coming from anymore. I also don't see that rigid adherence to musical genres as being so prevalent in Europe. What makes it kind of odd from a philosophical perspective is that such genres in North America exist primarily so that music stores knew what shelves to put CDs on and so radio DJs could comply with licensing requirements for music. As being someone who has drifted in and out of the culture over 20 years I have to say it is one thing I do not recall from the old days. I see alot of babybats being sneered at for not meeting the approve playlist requirement that many seem to have now. As someone who originally came into the dark culture through literature and art and later the music I find the fixation on one aspect does nothing to really help the subculture thrive.
Ive experienced very few people sneering at me for not living up to their standards within the goth scene. Ive seen a few, though, but I Just shrug them off nowadays. Of course, that is not to say that it has to be true for everyone else.
Also, people tend to interpret what they read the wrong way.
IDK wether this whole elitist vs poseur- thing is kind off blown out of proportions. Especially online, things tend to blow up quite a bit, when it turns out it wasnt really that bad in the first place . Most goths Ive met seems pretty chill.
You can have other interests but you must listen to goth music to be goth. Just liking dark things doesn't make you goth.
Another way I kind of look at idenity and myself please know I am autistic so I sometimes don't make sense but I will try. I identify as goth I like a lot of other things aswell I am my own person and I have a wide range of interests not all of them 'goth' but if you told me I was forced at gun point to pick certain things like say it was club night and I had to choose between a whole bunch of clubs to go to and the only goth club was 3 hours away I would still want to go to the goth club. I love metal music and Goth music but I would rather go to a goth club. If I had to choose forever to either wear black or any other colour I would choose black. I would not like to be told I had to choose though one or the other but someone has a gun to my head what would I prefer to go with this is and it was a choice I made forever you can live in a modern white house close to shops and transport everything is easy and perfect and new or renovate an old Victorian Mansion in the country anyway yoy like I would choose the Victorian Mansion every time. You can have a bright red sports car worth $100,000 and drive as fast as you want (tempting) Or a black hearse that needs a lot of work I would still be more drawn to the hearse and so on. It' really is how I feel in my soul the external material world is a reflection of what is inside at least to me and material things to me are less important than the way I feel as a person the things I like and choose to surround myself with reflect my soul really. If Goth music didn't exist this would still be me. I am sure there were darkly inclined people before goth music existed but they didn't have an identiy or a culture. The music scene brought is together gave us a sound a voice clubs to meet each other and grow as a culture. I am isolated from all that anyway but I still listen to the music and surround myself with the dark and the strange. I am slowly going deaf that still won't change me.
What are you drinking?
How does it BECOME (IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE TERM) inaccurate?
Embrace the darkness
The Elite coven of Goth will govern this cool Batman is a pure Goth. batchildren now learn from him. The Elite coven
The Elite coven of Goth will govern, batchildren now learn yes Goths are very intelligent more so than most other music cultures so yes there will always be an Elite Goth section of the culture sorry . if you want to know if you are CHOSEN SPECIAL UGLY DARK BEAUTIFUL THE ELITE IN YOUR GOTH COMMUNITY WILL REACH OUT TO YOU.WE ARE ALWAYS WATCHING
on one hand it is a very interesting video: the contents, the character, the set, and so on. Perfect. but on the other one, its a little bit boring. takes too much time speaking,
I think so, It could be splitted in different parts of video in order to make the watching experience nicer. But there are really good informations in this video.
To be a Goth is to have passion for the dark side of your soul to have passion for the dark arts of literature to demonstrate your own artistic vision
goth or anything..it doesnt matter.. we just pick and choose things to distract us from being tax slaves to govt..hobbies, friends ,sub cultures etc