Using carbide insert boring bars on an old and slow lathe
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- After spending a couple of eons making a boring bar holder, it is now finally time to try out those 3 Banggood boring bars and Mitsubishi ccmt inserts. So in this video I will be boring out a piece of stock metal that will eventually become a backing plate for a small 4 jaw chuck.
Want to support my video efforts, you could buy some shit through my Ebay and Banggood affiliated links below :)
some products I really like:
CCMT inserts: ebay.to/2MHIqz3
Diamond hone: www.banggood.c...
Rolingmetal community tab: bit.ly/2TkLrH0
Rolingmetal photo album: bit.ly/2KQJIdu
FYI: This video is the last one in a 4 part series were I make a boring bar holder to test some Banggood boring bars and Mitsubishi inserts.
1. Making the 4 barrel revolving boring bar holder
ua-cam.com/video/d8akPKkOAd0/v-deo.html
2. A boring, reaming and drilling video
ua-cam.com/video/V0MtdSr4umU/v-deo.html
3. My drilling and tapping adventure
ua-cam.com/video/JmLqe4HN39k/v-deo.html
4. Using insert boring bars on a slow lathe
ua-cam.com/video/N0TbtGqOvrY/v-deo.html
I have a similar type of boring bar setup and it resonates leaving that crosshatch pattern. I use the bar long so I am not surprised. Possibly if used at its shortest it would be OK. If I dampen the vibration with my finger, the finish is just fine. (That is not exactly practical nor safe to do, but it shows where the problem is coming from). Adjusting feeds, speeds and cutting depth can help, and so can dynamically varying spindle speed. But basically getting that resonance out of the bar is of paramount importance. When that is done, the inserts leave a good finish.
I have the identical set - same manufacturer and including the Mitsubishi inserts. but, I got mine through Ali Express. I agree the inserts do seem genuine simply because I have had no failures with them. I mentioned that because the inserts I received with my turning tools were totally inadequate and chipped too easily. Anyway, I admire your stamina in boring that huge hole!
Cheers and thanks for sharing.
I've got a similar experiencing with cheap inserts. Accidentally moved an insert against a stationary workpiece and the whole tip broke of.
To stop all those cuttings filling up the back of the chuck and the spindle centre, simply stuff some toilet paper in them at the back of the job. Even if the cutter tip catches on the paper nothing bad will happen and the paper will stay on place.
Stops having to clean out the chuck etc.
The boring bars performed well. I don't use oil on carbide as they work best when things are hot, that's why they recommend running at a higher speed - it's all about temperature. So oil is actually not helping at low speeds.
Cheers Rob
Toilet paper. Right I shall try that out.
I had a hard time getting any heat into the workpiece. Of course making a video slows you down giving the work time to cool.
that's a great idea, i'll use that one ta
How do you say "xynudu", Rob?
I think the problem you're having with the boring bar for facing is that the insert on the boring bar sits at a 5 degree or so offset from the flats on the bar holder itself. The cutting edge is dragging on the workpiece somewhat making heat rather than pointing into the work and shearing the material off, think of a cheese grater being used in the wrong direction.
I think facing works best with no offset so the cutting edge is at the same angle as the tool post on the lathe, 90 degrees.
Thanks for the update.
Good to see that the Banggood boring bars worked well for you. I normally run my lathe about 450 rpm, the middle of my 3 spindle pulleys. I have two pulleys on the motor, normally run on the slower. Changing motor pulley is a big hassle.
My experience with the carbide inserts is that they will cut when operated as slow surface speed. The finish may not be the best.
I have not tried facing with my boring bars. I may just have to do a test to see if I also experience the noise and bad finish.
Changing pulleys is so 20th century. Get a VFD I know a website that sells them :)
Try doing a facing cut if you can. I'm curious about the result.
VFD give less power at slow speed. Which might be problem once you use HSS tool.
10:07 chip ejaculation? Who is going to clean up that mess😂
Ha ha. Chip ejaculation is messy. Rough job
Chip ejaculation is better when he did right side inverted cutting. But also ejaculated on the backdoor.
The video sound is pretty good, beyond my imagination
You do a real good job reviewing stuff. Your very informative and I like that you tried to check with Mitsubishi. Awesome job.
Thanks. I might be better at reviewing shit than this machining stuff. Maybe it's time to start a new channel RolingReviews :)
@@Rolingmetal lol perfect.
20:54, this is what my neighbors hear from 10pm until 2am when im in the shop working on the lathe
I would use the stones. Love your sense of humor!
Thanks. But I think you responded to the wrong video :)
I did, sorry about that. Autoplay.
Yes thank you prices on banggood have doubled because of videos like these!!!
But their collet prices might drop :) ua-cam.com/video/1-iUYvI4qyQ/v-deo.html
Looks like you' re wrong. This set is cheaper then ever :)
www.banggood.com/SER1212H16-Turning-Tool-Holder-Boring-Bar-with-10pcs-16ER-AG60-VP15TF-Inserts-p-1142418.html?rmmds=cart_middle_products&cur_warehouse=CN
Enjoyed the video, and watched to the (real) end. Even with every dog in the neighbourhood howling along with that facing operation.
I suggest turning down the volume before you become the neighbourhoods pariah :)
I've got a heavier, newer lathe and have found that I get better results with inserted tools when I operate at the recommended feed rates and depth of cut. Scary fast sometimes. They don't seem to like slow and shallow cuts. The expensive, name brand inserts last a lot longer and cut better. On steel I use cutting oil applied with an acid brush. I've never fired up the coolant system, probably should give it a try one of these years. I don't get really good results hand feeding. Long, thin boring bars will always vibrate. Keep the stick-out to a minimum. I had bought a set of Chinese, metric jobbers bits, not good. I also have a set of cobalt screw machine bits, cut really well. The Chinese set of Silver and Deming bits have worked well but I don't use them a lot. A quick change tool post is well worth it's price.
I believe carbide is not a sharp as HSS and that might be the reason the don't work very good at shallow cuts.
But I'm surprised how well inserts work on my old and slow turning lathes.
@@Rolingmetal you can get "cermet" type inserts for the very same holders you got out of ebay at least, they are more expensive but not still even close to the brand insert prices, they give spectacular finish on their best conditions, and also work with well lower speed than carbide. Even on structural steel or any mild steel they give reasonably good finish.
And the cermet is brittler than carbide, it breaks fast if there is lots of chatter
And i have also a slow lathe, 750rpm max, but its bigger than yours
I think the boring bar may have been sticking out too far for facing, resulting in chatter. I would move it as close to the tool holder as possible to reduce flexing.
You might be right. I regret not trying that out.
@@Rolingmetal i think he is totally right not just might be right. with steel boring bars you can usually hang the boring bar out 2.5-3 times the diameter of the boring bar and maintain decent stability. more than that and you start getting vibrations and chatter easily. if you watch the video you can in fact se the boring bar bending when you engage the material with it, you always get a bit of deflection with boring bars but it should be minimized by minimizing hangout and using proper fixturing for your bars.
Thanks for showing the insert part number...I was looking for that to buy a spare set.
There appear a lot of chatter during turning on your light lathe and sequentially poor surface. Instead of your CCMT060204 VP15TF use a positive angle sharp CCGT060204 AK inserts (intended primarily for aluminium) or sharp grinded highspeed tools.
CHIP R E M O V A L ! ! ! !
Sheezus jenny!!!!
Is the boring bar flatted top and bottom to produce a negative angle?
And why negative angle ?... wont chips fall toward the cutting edge ?
Wont the top of the insert wear and deform producing a radius ?
Intersting video, as you've likley seen I use the same boring bar and inserts and have had times of them squeeeeeeeeling at me while still giving a reasonable finish, haven't figured out why yet!
I have a video series coming up where I have a go at making an ER32 collett chuck and I'm happy with the results these cheep tools gave, having said that I have no experence of using good quility tooling so can't compare.
Looking forward to seeing you make the back plate for the 4 jaw chuck :)
I made a tail stock collet chuck once. That's a lot of work :)
I think instead of cutting the boring bar is bending down and then slapping back upward, making some weird chatter marks there.
I think you're right.
They have to be ejected not ejaculated. Poor English. Ha Ha. Keep up the good videos.
I guess I need to make a few more videos in order to improve my Engilish :)
@@Rolingmetal I bet those who are critical of your English have never learned a second language. Your English is fine!
I have the same type of boring bars in different sizes and they pretty ok for what they are, i am not a big fan of CCMT inserts but sometimes you just need something small to get inside. Unfortunately Banggood did not send any free stuff to me, so i had to purchase them (not from Banggood)
After evaluation this video and reading through the comments, Banggood just might contact you to do some reviews. I guess you bought those new lights just in time :)
We'll see,...:-) ... but it seems they can produce decent quality, just watched Steve Summers reviewing a toolmakers vice from Banggood, pretty impressive results for the price.
I like that style of vice. But a 50 min video is too much for me :)
Any ringing noise like that is a sure sign of chatter. A general rule to reduce or eliminate it is to up the feed and / or reduce the speed. That didn't really apply for what you were doing. Cutting tools such as boring bars do have some definite limits on there extension outside the tool holder. Steel boring bar limits are usually 3-5 times the tools diameter at the very maximum. Carbide shanks then approximately 5-8 times the diameter. Specially designed deep hole boring bars might get as much as 10 times the diameter but that's pushing things a lot. Chatter of any kind is death on carbide. The material is a sintered powdered metal and that chatter helps to instantly destroy the cutting tip. It takes very little to ruin the edge and the damage might be small enough it would be tough to see by eye. But that damage shows up on the surface finish just like you found. Carbide also can't take thermal shock at all well. It either needs to be run dry or a continuous heavy amount. That thermal shocking helps to literally explode the tool edge apart. The first 2 boring bars were noticeably flexing up and down and again that contributes to chatter and tool edge destruction. Carbide can and does work semi ok most times at lower than it's optimum design speeds. It's not ideal but it can work good enough. Everything else was the problem so not a really fair test for the tool or the carbide.
Maybe those were real Mitsubishi carbide tips? I dunno, the lettering looked very slightly different than what the real logo looks like but it's very hard to say for sure they are or aren't the real thing. Or maybe Mitsubishi has changed there logo a bit. It's been quite awhile since I've bought any of there carbide tips.
Thanks for your insights
About the Mitsubishi inserts. Someone left a comment linking to some Mitsubishi packaging pdf files.
I now think the inserts might be knockoffs
Since you've got the actual box of inserts with the Mitsubishi logo in front of you then comparing it in detail with the one on Misubishi's website might say yes / no to them being a knock off? If they are then Bangood are sort of encouraging counterfeit goods by my definition.
For longer bores you can sometimes cheat by presetting the boring bar slightly high and above the lathes center line so when the bar flexes down under the cutting forces it then hits roughly at the lathes center line. Not ideal, but it's a way to sometimes cheat the physics of the tooling set up. Using the largest bar diameter possible for a given starting hole size helps a lot. A bar twice as large in diameter is far more than twice as rigid. Closer to 8 times as rigid but the exact math numbers are outside my pay grade. :-) Youngs modulus for steel covers the numbers if your wanting a brain ache.
It might not be the smoothest finish, but it got the job done. :)
I ordered some tool holders for my lathe from Banggood. The post office delivered a plastic bag with the remains of a paper envelope from Banggood. Paper to ship heavy steel tools!!! After many exchanges with Banggood they made me get a USPS letter with the signature of the local postmaster on it showing that it was really lost. I had sent them photos of the envelopes. They finally sent an email asking if I wanted a refund or the tools. I answered the tools. That was months ago. They will not reply to my emails. Take care in dealing with them.
I've heard stories like this before. Their packing of heavy items certainly leaves something to be desired.
6 weeks is the longest I waited for something I ordered. Don't give up and let them win!
Since they won't respond there isn't much for options on this end.
Yeah, they are pretty crappy at responding.I complained about something two weeks ago. No response yet. And to be honest I'm not expecting a response any more.
The Chines have a bit of a f*cked up mentality when it comes to doing business with foreigners.
Hard to judge not knowing the grade of steel. Certainly not rubbish as the swarf didn't turn blue. Was it magnetic? Don't waste money and time with oil and brush just buy a can of WD40 a quick spurt now and then. Next time you face keep the over hang of the tool to minimum this one was too far out and why you got chatter.
It's not magnetic.
WD40 I usually use for alluminium. But I prefer cutting dry because it stinks my small workshop :)
The overhang for that facing experiment was about half I used for boring. But it was probably still to much.
userwl2850 WD-40 is NOT a lubricant. It is a solvent. Can help improve surface finish of aluminum but it will not do much for other metals. Use proper cutting oil as Rolingmetal is doing here.
Have you seen the work that user2850 does? :) If it works for him, it's worth a try.
Primary component of WD40 is kerosene.
From the camera angle we could see. It looked like the angle to the cutting surface was wrong. It was tilted down (rotation in the mount). So the actual cutter was trailing the surface, not biting into it (aside from any angle in the carbide cutting edge). Possibly the flats ground on the bars were wrong. Instead of a slight angle upwards, it looked like a slight angle down. Dragging the carbide, causing it to vibrate on the surface. If it was a slight angle upward, then the carbide would want to pull (bite) into the surface with a constant pressure, not vibrate the same.
Around the 22:38 minute mark, even though the camera was clearly above the center line of what you were turning, the cutter was angle looks twisted down. It looked to be on the same plane as the camera view. We should have been able to see a small amount of the top surface of the insert. Please let me know it that was just my visual error.
Thank you for the video.
The inserts are not horizontally installed in the boring bar, the are angled down.
In other words. The inserts are not parallel with the flats on the boring bar.
The tip of the insert is still on centre hight. I'm not sure why they are designed this way.
Also. The holes in the BB holder are a bit over sized and the BB them self are a bit undersized. So the cutting tip will be slightly below the centre line. I don't think it matters because I believe centre hight on the I.D. isn't as important as with the O.D.
Ask a properly qualified machinist. But in my opinion that was just wrong. They likely just set their equipment up for the opposite angle they should have when they went to grind the flats. At the very least it should have been flat, 90 deg. to the face to be milled if not a slight angle up.
Also, angled down like that. I would think you have to put more pressure on it (with the hand feed) to make it cut.
Thank you.
Perhaps they are designed this way to create more clearance underneath the cutting edge.
Yeah, I found some discussions about that. Yes some are designed with some negative rake, but the top cutting edge might actually present a slight positive rake... Typically they are poorer quality carbides that required that or they chipped more easily. Newer better quality carbides don't have that problem and thus have more clearance angles, etc...
I did come across a video where Keith Fenner had wrapped the boring bar with lead to stop the bar from singing.
I've been meaning to make a big boring bar filled with lead on the inside.
But so far I have not needed a really big boring bar.
I can't pronounce "xynudu" either... I just call The Channel "G'day, it's Rob here again". ;)
:) ua-cam.com/video/2hOLm_k6eCs/v-deo.html
@@Rolingmetal "Zan-uh-doo"
Hell yeah
You ok man?
Not really, but I hope to make a comeback.
check your center line,sounds like it riding high and rubbing causing the push off
boring barhole is a bit oversized and the boring bar is a bit thinner than indicated. So it should sit a bit low.
It's likely quieter due to break-in.
Not bad for slow and perhaps worn out machine...clamp the tools short as possible.
How long is an eon?
About a mile and a half.
did u say ejaculation lol
For info on if that box is genuine see
www.mitsubishicarbide.com/application/files/4014/4547/6421/p014g.pdf
www.mitsubishicarbide.com/en/news/201403_insert_box
they changed the box in 2014
Thanks you for that. I've compared them with these pictures goo.gl/N4LJdz goo.gl/m9zKWG and there sure are lots of differences.
4 years is a long time, so it hard to believe that those Banggood inserts are old stock genuine article inserts.
So they are most likely knockoffs!
yes. i agree. at that price, they would have sold out long ago. from my perspective, forget the label. if they give acceptable work for the price, they are a good deal.
bit of oil dopie
Messy, but probably a good idea :)
Зачем маслом мажешь?
10:06 whuuuut???
Yeah, I'm not a native English speaker :)
Chip ejaculation???!! Wtf? Pretty sure the word is ejection. Ejaculation is something a lil bit different. I'm pretty sure chips cannot ejaculate. SMH
SCRetch
amador
if you honestly think you are getting genuine Mitsubishi carbide inserts with there elcheapo boring bars you are extremely gullible!!! I am not saying they don't work..... I am just saying they are not genuine.
Do you have any proof that they are counterfeit?
Do you think Mitsubishi is above making some money by outsourcing their production to China?
Why didn't Mitsubishi reply to my email question? They only had to say that they are aware of counterfeit inserts being made in China. They didn't, so I choose to believe they are genuine till somebody proofs they are not.
But they are a bit suspicious otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them this in the first place.
GULLIBLE with a capital G.
Do you honestly think that a company that charges up to $20 an insert is going to turn around and offer an insert of equivalent quality at a fifth of the price. Wake up drongo. The Chinese are infamous for ripping off big brand names.
Without any proof and resorting yourself to name calling, this discussion is pointless. Goodnight mr. Flapdrol.
warren maker WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT?!!
@@flosi101 i bought mitutoyo branded vernier calipers and a dial indicator from ebay, i was able to prove them they are fake by some minor quality issues, and got all the money back from each item. I still use them and they are not even the worst i've used. I also got some "mitsubishi" threading inserts and i think they are very fake as well, but can't prove it because they have no visible issues. If they had something in them, i would have took my cash back immediately.
oil dopie
The video sound is pretty good, beyond my imagination