As an unhinge cannibal... I mean, Noble Knight I'm very happy with the FEC changes. Both the rules and the points drops opens up fun builds. Merry Christmas to us!
>IJ gets point drops but no rule improvements >"Well, let's hope for the tome to fix things." Never woulda thought the orruk tome would leak just hours after this stream. Can't wait to see how blackpilled Vince is on greenskins on next week's show! 😆
Speaking of the Varanguard issue, something I haven't heard people suggest so far is... just lock the fight twice behind a Command Point paywall? Less feel-bad than removing it altogether or disallowing reinforce, and gives certain armies/units an option to deny the command (e.g. Command Corps for Cities, Marrowscroll Herald for FEC etc). Will the StD player still use it? Probably, but then they can't AoA in the same turn at least
Which Is why I came up with a reinforcement tax. Part of the battle profile. So that that way you can still encourage the warscroll to still be included because the non reinforced pick is efficient, but the reinforced option is not as efficient. Something like Varanguard would be 320 for 3 but 670 for 6. A 30 point tax for reinforcing. That becomes a lever they pull for balance, rather than just pointing the unit out of feasible use. And just to be clear, I'm not saying all units get a universal reinforcement tax.
Good having Tyler back,. Also, you guys are crazy. Spells go off all the time. You know what doesn’t, prayers. Because you roll a one and you can’t pray or you roll a three and you can’t pray and you put it in your back pocket until next turn when you roll a one and lose everything.
Ogres: My army is back to exactly what it was at Index release. Yay? Need new book. DoK: Doesn't do enough reliable damage for its fragility. Still completely dependent on Mindrazor. Morathi too expensive. Gitz: A spit in Trogg's eye one more time. Rude. Nurgle: Seasonal Rules are better for them than their actual rules. Skaven: Still too many points across the board. Bring Moulder waaaay down so we can see some cool beast lists.
I will say, I’ve been able to build some good beast Skaven lists, overall, I’m fairly happy with them. I could see a little bit more, but we’re not far off.
@@VinceVenturellado u know if there are a lot of top competitive players playing skaven? Skaven just feel so strong right now and have tricks to deal with varangaurd and NH, so I just wonder if we will see a skaven dominate meta in the very near future?
Thank you for the Shoutout Tyler! ❤ Great show as always. Methodical and entertaining. I'm really looking forward to these new rules. They are a step in the right direction, even if they are not all that they could have been. They found a relatively smart way to facilitate and enrich the option for secondary heroes while at the same time strenghtening infantry-based armies that were struggling a bit. They also started to make the low drop an interesting dilemma instead of a common objective.
Thanks for the enjoyable episode, was good to hear all the thoughts on the matter. Quite stoked that my CoS army just got about 180p cheaper with all the cannons and steelhelms I am running. This combined with the wonderful update to the high regiment drops, I am dining well.
Overall great stuff- AoS team continue to outperform the 40k rules and balance team. Looking forward to new books to land- especially Kruleboyz, should shake things up all over again!
obr can't use the new infantry movement buff hero honourguard, because they don't have any infantry subcommander heroes, only cavalry. the faction as a whole has been doing fine, but mortek guard just can't catch a break. -_-
Great show as always! Vince you got to give a shout out sometime for Devs and dice mordheim terrain. That guy makes great terrain...cheap and looks great!...above all thank you for all you all do and keep the hobby going...your the GOAT!...merry Christmas 🎄 and happy new year! Thanks for all the content when I hobby. I don't know what it would be like with out all your content!
I quite like the Deathmaster now but purely as a prospector option. Move 7 +2 with run and shoot. With unit of Night runners, guaranteed take the flanks turn 1. Maybe I'm biased because it's an option to avoid painting another unit of night runners.
First of all, that duelist is really neat. Second, it would be fun to see the Distraction Makers on the show, I have long argued for that and can point to examples across many platforms, so someone agreeing with me would make me feel better. :D I haven't watched their video yet, but it goes on my Christmas painting video list for sure.
For the Prized Beast Honour Guard, it says "this affects companion weapons". Not "this *also* affects companion weapons". So as written, that means *only* companion weapons (we never state *only*, as it's implied when referencing one subject, whereas we always state *also*, if it's in addition.) this seems to make sense lore wise too, considering the description talks about a single monster that is feared, not the rider on top. It's possible that they missed out the *also*, but it doesn't seem so. What are your thoughts on this?
@@VinceVenturella oh for sure, it affects units as much as single models, not questioning that :) What I mean is that some monster warscrolls have two profiles: companion weapons and normal weapons, usually if it's a mounted warscroll, the monster (claws, beak, jaws etc) is companion, and the rider (lance/sword etc) isn't. As it doesn't say "this *also* affects companion weapons", as written, it won't affect riders' weapons that don't have companion weapons. So with SDG for example, the riders still hit on 3, but the dragons buff to 3. (Seems to make sense as the descriptive fluff talks about the monster being special, not the unit as a whole). Seems to be I'm alone in noticing that, and I'd love it to affect all profiles, but the language doesn't work like that for me 🤷 Anyway, thanks for replying and Merry Christmas!
2:01:30 Can you post a few lists you like? Maybe one that’s shooty heavy? (I have two box sets, vizzik, and bought some extra shooting like lightning cannons and more jezzails) 2:04:26 The best way to take Darkoath is to put them on square bases and play Old World 😂
I think the tank commanders have some interesting potential. Vince you wrote off the steam tank, And I agree on it, But the commander gets three extra good shots and melee attacks for only 20 points more, plus it can buffets hit for one turn and gain you two sets of orders. I'm interested in running two tank commanders to take the flanks with the plus 3 inch range battle formation, and then be a flexible unit. With the order on itself it can Auto advance 17 in and still shoot or even charge which is interesting. If it gets stuck in combat it's a good target for the five plus ward order for survivability, and the commander has more ability to punch out from being screened by prospectors. What I've been thinking is that I give one of them the priest enhancement, to let It stack up points round one to get a prayer off round two. Either making itself more tanky if I need a screen or mortals if I want to help fight out of combat. For DOT I think the horror build is kneecapped pretty hard, to the point where I think it's not going to be good anymore especially as mentioned for your average player. I don't think the LOC is worth 400 points for one. The more the points go up for units in this list, The more essential Kairos becomes. Because you can never take the LOC by itself without taking Kairos first, You are left with such a limited list. Literally just taking the two birds 20 pinks and 20 blues is already 1500 points, You really lack room for anything. And then if you don't bring LOC then do you even bring horrors, because you're paying pretty ridiculous prices for them now, And it feels like you're paying for them to come back and if you can't bring them back what's the point? I mean you can say blues are strong but they are like 13 wounds on average including the returning brims, for 150 points? I think tzaangor builds have legs, But I think they killed the horrors honestly. The thing is with so few units, losing a unit is HUGE. I think if it was just a nerf it'd be one thing, but also look how much other factions got buffed. I think it will be a big swing and average tzeentch demons players are going to be finding themselves with too little stuff vs enemies with much more stuff now.
2:10:05 this is something that 40k is doing that AoS can steal notes for. Regular price. reinforced price. And you can tweak those points all over the place. 330/700 for instance for Varanguard. You can even incentivize certain units with things like 100/180 or something. Simple and clean and works with what we have already
I think being down by 6 go get a normal double turn is the right amount. Mathematically, even if you play a perfect 10 point turn, your opponent then only need to do a battle tactic and hold an objective to stay one point ahead of you at the end of that battle round.
"Rules need changing, not points" should be an entire episode now that it's basically confirmed that every tome will be a copy of their index. All of them were written months ago so even if IDK needs new rules you can almost guarantee that they won't get it.
My issue with darkoath is why I hate the change to Marks. When you make them a slow trickle where you can only have battle round number plus one at any time having them on more efficient units will always be better then a barbarian with the same buff
Hey Vince thanks for the reply last time. Tyler is always my fav guest. He taught me how to play AOS back in the day at Meta. One shot my Lord Skrolk with his dam Tree people...
Hi Longstrikes cant redeploy + covering Fire. A Unit can only be a target of the command covering Fire if it didnt run. The declare step is Not possible if you use a run ability in the same turn.
This reasoning would stop longstrikes using 'shoot' and 'charge' if they used 'run' as well since those abilities also say you can't pick a unit that used 'run' in the declare step. Longstrikes' 'vanguard chamber' ability takes precedence.
It's not clear actually, because shoot in combat units cannot use covering fire even though the explicit wording of that ability would suggest they could. Covering fire isn't supposed to be a shooting attack, it says to "resolve shooting attacks," which was the original justification for why you could redeploy and counter shoot. To make all of this even more confusing, they didn't delete the FAQ that says you can redeploy and counter shoot. So who knows!
Is there any contraindication to Eltharion getting honour guard with the +2 to move ability as a bonus hero? He can be quite interesting now (point reduction, +2 to move aura, so 12" Infantry move, including Speed of Hysh).
Vince's anti-Fyreslayer bias was showing when he mentioned half a dozen armies that greatly profit from the new Field Sergeant rule... but only added FS to that list after the chat reminded him. :P Good Battlescroll overall. I wish they'd add some incentive to go for 3+ regiments to the core rules. I also wish there was a universal way to get extra enhancements. Like 3rd edition had with the Warlord Battalion and the Command Entourage. Why not combine those two ideas and let players pick an additional enhancement for each non-Warlord regiment their army has? This would create a strong push and pull between going low drop and adding more enhancements.
I'm unsure what to think about the several new bonus heroes as if I want the new buff (mostly the +2 move) which seems interesting for a lot of them, I want to maximize my drops anyways (I guess it's nice to have the option to try to fight for priority but going 2nd for a double is also a bit less attractive now it seems like). As for the changes I'm most excited for overall for several of my armies: -Soulblight: Very excited for the massive points drops on all the vampire heroes as I want to play lists with lots of them (Kritza at 70, the anti-monster named hero also down 40, Raddukar, Lauka Vai, etc.). -LRL: Eltharion going down in points AND becoming a bonus hero seems quite interesting now to put in a regiment with E&E. Maybe the +1 hit honor guard on the cow seems potentially good (hit/wound on 2s, 5 dmg per attack). The rest doesn't seem to change too much, sentinels and wardens up a little but stoneguards, bladelords going down the same amount and some other hero went down a bit (Lyrior -20 seems nice too) makes up for it probably. -Ironjawz and Kruleboyz: possibly interesting changes but if leaks I saw are true, their book might be out in less than a month so I don't care so much about it right now. -Seraphon: carnasaur -40 is nice. -OBR: I guess that the Stalkers' warscroll was so bad that they're starting to get so cheap now that MAYBE they can be considered (or at 150 they might, I don't know). -Skaven nice overall. Bummers: OBR: +20 on Katakros, the main reason I play him is because I hate the new mechanic with 12 inch bubble. I systematically fail all of my 5+ to deny CPs. The +1 save on 3 units is nice for sure but I already found him a bit overcosted at 500 for what he does. Also no small heroes as bonus heroes means we can't use the new rule for better mobility with stalkers I guess. Skaven: Is the deceiver really worth 410 points when we compare it to other big monsters that just went down a fair amount of points? S2D: I wish they made the Gaunt Summoners as bonus heroes and that the Karkadrak went down (they really seem to be trying to push for people to use the one on regular mount).
Having fought Katakros twice, I still consider him massively undercosted. He is one of the biggest force multiplier/support pieces in the entire game. He simply does not die, and though je dishes out damage like a freaking bombing run, even if he sits still for the entire game he is still a massive hassle to deal with.
@@bartholen Here are a few points about Katakros from my experience having played with him 6 games vs different armies in V4 so far. 1- Don't get me wrong, I agree that he is certainly very tanky but he totally can die. I've played with him for 6 games in V4, he did die twice and could have died on 1-2 other occasion (came close and got lucky with dice). My guess is that your army/list(s) you fought him with probably did not have shooting/much magic dmg/big hammer with 3+ rend or high MWs output. I've had Katakros die from 2-3 rounds of 20 LRL sentinels, he died to MWs (Terrorgheists), he would die from a charge of 10 Dawnriders with +1 attack (average of 27 MWs into infantry not even counting a single regular attack going through), he would die to 6 Varanguards, he nearly died to Trogg -3 rend, etc. etc. 2- The reason why shooting and magic are so strong vs him is because you're struggling big time with CPs when you play him (since you need to save 1 CP every round for his +1 save buff which is one of the main reasons you bring him). This leaves you with only 3 CPs (or 4 if underdog) for 2 turns so it becomes difficult to spare some for All Out Defense during shooting phases on top of that or for Rally (and rally is unreliable, I got 1 hp back when I used it on him last time). You possibly have other units you need to protect so the +1 save might not always be on him. You also cannot activate the 5+ ward in the magic or shooting phase. 3- List building is super tight because wizards are kind of mandatory in V4 with manifestations. If you need at least a 2 cast Wizard, that's another +160 pts (if not Arkhan), I'm not sure the 1 cast wizards are enough so it's like an added tax cost that's sort of hidden here. Many other very powerful warscroll force multipliers are already cheaper than him AND also have some casting (and sometimes more damage too, more mobility, etc.). If I compare Katakros + 2 spell cast wizard in terms of utility and cost, Katakros ends up around 230-250 points more expensive than similar equivalent heroes in other armies (Be'Lakor or Ushoran for example). This also means that there's less to force multiply as the hammers aren't cheap in this army, your bubble is probably buffing 1 more unit or 2 more than you would normally if you didn't bring Katakros. 4- His damage profile is good but nothing exceptional for that price cost (the main weapon is the same damage profile or weaker than a lot of other big non-god heroes, the shield is similar to an ok mount, the companions here are what sets him apart but it's basically 5 mortek guards) and if he gets bracketed (not that hard since there's no more healing), instead of having his companion weapons go down, it's his best damage profile that goes from 5 attacks down to 3 and his fighting profile is meh / weak at that point for 520 points. Overall, what I'm trying to get at here is that you do not bring him for how tanky he is or his damage (those are bonuses). He's very slow, his damage profile is nothing special for his cost. He can be very hard to kill indeed but I've played him with blocks of Archai and the Archai being even tankier than him, still can die vs strong hammers/shooting. The 5+ ignore CP is great on paper but fails the majority of the time in practice (most of my games, it never worked) so that doesn't weight in for me. The +3 control score per unit is nice but you're thin on units and bodies generally with OBR with him so it's rarely major. What's huge about him is the large bubble to buff the whole army (if you don't split too much) instead of 1 12" bubble and the +1 save on 3 units although that leaves you struggling on CPs all game. When I compare him to other similar utility heroes that have more mobility, more damage, spell casts, synergies and such, I personally feel like he should be more around 450-480 range. If I didn't have to pay a spell caster tax on top of him (say manifestations were gone), it might be a different story. Anyhow, I don't have much fun with my OBR with the bubble mechanic and no more healing/recursion. I'm more excited to play my other armies and if Katakros goes up in points, that'll be better for me if I face him.
That comment about 330 varangaurd being too expensive but 660 varanguard too cheap is something 40k has been seeing for a while too. Theyve started having different costs for reinforced stuff
Tyler, help mate...I'm really struggling with Soulblight atm, any chance you could send me a list to try? My bloodnknights just aren't doing work, always some reason that they don't get the charge off.
As a starting point, here's some thoughts from a friend, who's been thinking pretty deeply about Soulblight and having some success with them. "For Soulblight, I think you definitely want to start with one of the big heroes. I think Vhordrai or Neferata are probably the 2 best/easiest build around options, but Manny is obviously still great. "2x5 or 1x10 Blood Knights to go with them I think is a must. You know I prefer 5s for them cause of footprint but 10 can still work. [Ed: He's been running Vhordrai + 5 Blood Knights to great effect.] "20 Grave Guard I've really come around on, and being able to take a Wight King as a Field Sergeant to hold your Lash of the Sire and Orb of Enchantment with the GG is a great pick at only 100 points now. "After those you could go another big hero, like both Vhordrai and Neffy I've seen people running that and it seems really good; but genuinely I think Lauka Vai is an excellent pick for that spot with her points now. She gives you more points to work with to get loads of summonables on the table. "Cado is a great option to put in if you're okay going over 2 drops (and I think Soulblight does absolutely fine going higher drops as we've talked about). His ability to get key spells out is unmatched for his points. "At least 1 unit of Fell Bats is auto include imo for tactics, and then after you have these things, I think you just fill it out with your choice of MSU zombies and skellies for loads of bodies on the table and recursion. "Avoids: I would avoid Dire Wolves unless your running Belladamma. I've tried them and I just can't get past the Beast keyword, it makes them feel so bad, and Bats will do what I want to do with them, just better. Belladamma is perfectly fine to run though if you want dogs. "In short, get your core of big hero + Blood Knights, 20 Grave Guard, and another supporting combat piece, and then you really can take so many options; the book is super flexible. "Also more avoids: Corpse Cart, Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist (still not worth even after points drops imo; 5+ save and gamble damage isn't great), generic Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon - both of his abilities are just bad, so it's basically 400 points for just its combat profile, which is fine but not worth it imo). "Radukar the Beast I think is also another good option for that supporting combat piece slot. At -30 points he's much more enticing imo."
Vince I need your sage help and intervention, with the point drops and current rules, the devil on my shoulder is telling me to run a 5 Maw Crusha List…that’s a bad idea right??
Your units need to be reinforced to be good, points are generally up, number of units is down, pressure has been to low drops, prospectors are needed around the edges to do battle tactics. So basically, there is no room left for chafe.
I was initially super hyped for this battlescroll/points update, but then Rob showed us the orruk warclans book and now i don't know if i have the ability to put a destruction army on the table anymore. I even had a winning record at my lgs with ogres and IJ for over 30+ games but the amount i have to work to make them viable and pull out all the tricks is frustrating. How did two sub 50% (48% kb and 43% ij) winrate armies get nerfed?!?!?!I was on pace to finish painting my IJ army for my third AoS event so I'm not the "TO with the unpainted army" meme but all motivation has been sucked out of the room. I'm genuinely considering not playing and holding space for the three other grand alliance players to have fun, but as a destruction player mainly, this blows.
@JebodiahJunfan you mean their AoR? Yeah I saw Rob going over them afterwards which is nice but damn for my army to function I have to use something originally designed to be restrictive, yay? It's weird imo that that's the only viable way.
I feel like based on many of your comments maybe the game would just be better by just eliminating reinforced units from the game. It would have a lot of knock on effects but it feels like most of them would be positive. thooughts?
Vince I think you are wrong about Stormvermin. Ofc we will have to wait and see, but people have been playing them and with the new points and their support hero going down they are incredibly efficient damage dealers. With just Krittok a reinforced unit has an avg of 22.2 dmg vs a 4+ save and thats a 240 pts unit. I will definetively test 60 sotrmvermin in clawhorde before I just to comclusions. Also the globadiers are now in terms of dmg per point just a little bit behind ratling guns, but boy if they shoot into the 10 models blocks their damage skyrockets
As said above, it’s not about their damage, I can get they out of multiple units. It’s delivery and survival. You’re going to get caught by cav units and blown off the table in one go. That’s the challenge. Now maybe 60 is enough, I’m going to try that with Darmonettesz, but it’s a flawed strategy.
@@VinceVenturella Fair enough. I also don't think the SV will be the new star in Skaven, but now they are at least worth trying. Also with the unique hero and warpseer we can move 2 units 10" with 3 clawsteps, so I think there is at least some counterplay there. I will for sure test it, I love me some Stormvermin :)
"Be happy with what you got, yeah that is a good thing to say this time of the year" Tyler telling Vince he didn't get him anything for Christmas
I actually did…it’s just going to be a little late. :)
As an unhinge cannibal... I mean, Noble Knight I'm very happy with the FEC changes. Both the rules and the points drops opens up fun builds. Merry Christmas to us!
>IJ gets point drops but no rule improvements
>"Well, let's hope for the tome to fix things."
Never woulda thought the orruk tome would leak just hours after this stream. Can't wait to see how blackpilled Vince is on greenskins on next week's show! 😆
Your random shoutout for my channel made my week! Thank you my friend! ❤
You’re very welcome! Glad you enjoyed it.
Speaking of the Varanguard issue, something I haven't heard people suggest so far is... just lock the fight twice behind a Command Point paywall?
Less feel-bad than removing it altogether or disallowing reinforce, and gives certain armies/units an option to deny the command (e.g. Command Corps for Cities, Marrowscroll Herald for FEC etc). Will the StD player still use it? Probably, but then they can't AoA in the same turn at least
Which Is why I came up with a reinforcement tax. Part of the battle profile. So that that way you can still encourage the warscroll to still be included because the non reinforced pick is efficient, but the reinforced option is not as efficient. Something like Varanguard would be 320 for 3 but 670 for 6. A 30 point tax for reinforcing. That becomes a lever they pull for balance, rather than just pointing the unit out of feasible use.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying all units get a universal reinforcement tax.
Good having Tyler back,. Also, you guys are crazy. Spells go off all the time. You know what doesn’t, prayers. Because you roll a one and you can’t pray or you roll a three and you can’t pray and you put it in your back pocket until next turn when you roll a one and lose everything.
Ogres: My army is back to exactly what it was at Index release. Yay? Need new book.
DoK: Doesn't do enough reliable damage for its fragility. Still completely dependent on Mindrazor. Morathi too expensive.
Gitz: A spit in Trogg's eye one more time. Rude.
Nurgle: Seasonal Rules are better for them than their actual rules.
Skaven: Still too many points across the board. Bring Moulder waaaay down so we can see some cool beast lists.
I will say, I’ve been able to build some good beast Skaven lists, overall, I’m fairly happy with them. I could see a little bit more, but we’re not far off.
@@VinceVenturellado u know if there are a lot of top competitive players playing skaven? Skaven just feel so strong right now and have tricks to deal with varangaurd and NH, so I just wonder if we will see a skaven dominate meta in the very near future?
Vince, I took two clawlords and 220 clan rats to Nova this year and went 4-4!
Thank you for the Shoutout Tyler! ❤
Great show as always. Methodical and entertaining.
I'm really looking forward to these new rules. They are a step in the right direction, even if they are not all that they could have been.
They found a relatively smart way to facilitate and enrich the option for secondary heroes while at the same time strenghtening infantry-based armies that were struggling a bit. They also started to make the low drop an interesting dilemma instead of a common objective.
Thanks for the enjoyable episode, was good to hear all the thoughts on the matter.
Quite stoked that my CoS army just got about 180p cheaper with all the cannons and steelhelms I am running. This combined with the wonderful update to the high regiment drops, I am dining well.
Overall great stuff- AoS team continue to outperform the 40k rules and balance team. Looking forward to new books to land- especially Kruleboyz, should shake things up all over again!
Couldn’t agree more! Im also looking forward to the Orruks book. Hopefully big waaagh will make a huge come back
Idk I think 40k is doing better rules ATM. Bunch of new interesting detachments and buffs, we get copy pasted books with no list building changes
I just had to say something. 😢
The 40K Balance team has done a great job. Check out Stat Check for real numbers. Ridiculous statement
oooooooof bad timing, Urruks book land and KB got nish
Thanks
Thank you! and thank you for the super chat!
I'm still here, and I'm a hero I guess 😂 Enjoying the show as usual, making me excited for AOS again!
Glad to hear it!
I would point to the Underdog concept as a rule change solely being driven by competition. A good ruleset wouldn't need an Underdog approach.
Took me a few days, but I finished it. Thanks for all your hard work
I am glad you enjoyed it!
obr can't use the new infantry movement buff hero honourguard, because they don't have any infantry subcommander heroes, only cavalry. the faction as a whole has been doing fine, but mortek guard just can't catch a break. -_-
Great show as always! Vince you got to give a shout out sometime for Devs and dice mordheim terrain. That guy makes great terrain...cheap and looks great!...above all thank you for all you all do and keep the hobby going...your the GOAT!...merry Christmas 🎄 and happy new year! Thanks for all the content when I hobby. I don't know what it would be like with out all your content!
2:36 yep. Still hear. I this on during hobbling and house work:)
"Bonesplitterz. Nope." Enough said I suppose.
I quite like the Deathmaster now but purely as a prospector option. Move 7 +2 with run and shoot. With unit of Night runners, guaranteed take the flanks turn 1. Maybe I'm biased because it's an option to avoid painting another unit of night runners.
First of all, that duelist is really neat.
Second, it would be fun to see the Distraction Makers on the show, I have long argued for that and can point to examples across many platforms, so someone agreeing with me would make me feel better. :D I haven't watched their video yet, but it goes on my Christmas painting video list for sure.
For the Prized Beast Honour Guard, it says "this affects companion weapons". Not "this *also* affects companion weapons".
So as written, that means *only* companion weapons (we never state *only*, as it's implied when referencing one subject, whereas we always state *also*, if it's in addition.) this seems to make sense lore wise too, considering the description talks about a single monster that is feared, not the rider on top.
It's possible that they missed out the *also*, but it doesn't seem so.
What are your thoughts on this?
It effects units (i.e. multiple monsters), I am sure. :)
@@VinceVenturella oh for sure, it affects units as much as single models, not questioning that :)
What I mean is that some monster warscrolls have two profiles: companion weapons and normal weapons, usually if it's a mounted warscroll, the monster (claws, beak, jaws etc) is companion, and the rider (lance/sword etc) isn't.
As it doesn't say "this *also* affects companion weapons", as written, it won't affect riders' weapons that don't have companion weapons.
So with SDG for example, the riders still hit on 3, but the dragons buff to 3. (Seems to make sense as the descriptive fluff talks about the monster being special, not the unit as a whole). Seems to be I'm alone in noticing that, and I'd love it to affect all profiles, but the language doesn't work like that for me 🤷
Anyway, thanks for replying and Merry Christmas!
Thankie for y'all, keeping me Warhammer literate with unmatched dedication
Great show! Nice to see Tyler back!
Glad you enjoyed it!
2:01:30 Can you post a few lists you like? Maybe one that’s shooty heavy? (I have two box sets, vizzik, and bought some extra shooting like lightning cannons and more jezzails)
2:04:26 The best way to take Darkoath is to put them on square bases and play Old World 😂
I think the tank commanders have some interesting potential. Vince you wrote off the steam tank, And I agree on it, But the commander gets three extra good shots and melee attacks for only 20 points more, plus it can buffets hit for one turn and gain you two sets of orders. I'm interested in running two tank commanders to take the flanks with the plus 3 inch range battle formation, and then be a flexible unit. With the order on itself it can Auto advance 17 in and still shoot or even charge which is interesting. If it gets stuck in combat it's a good target for the five plus ward order for survivability, and the commander has more ability to punch out from being screened by prospectors. What I've been thinking is that I give one of them the priest enhancement, to let It stack up points round one to get a prayer off round two. Either making itself more tanky if I need a screen or mortals if I want to help fight out of combat.
For DOT I think the horror build is kneecapped pretty hard, to the point where I think it's not going to be good anymore especially as mentioned for your average player. I don't think the LOC is worth 400 points for one. The more the points go up for units in this list, The more essential Kairos becomes. Because you can never take the LOC by itself without taking Kairos first, You are left with such a limited list. Literally just taking the two birds 20 pinks and 20 blues is already 1500 points, You really lack room for anything. And then if you don't bring LOC then do you even bring horrors, because you're paying pretty ridiculous prices for them now, And it feels like you're paying for them to come back and if you can't bring them back what's the point?
I mean you can say blues are strong but they are like 13 wounds on average including the returning brims, for 150 points?
I think tzaangor builds have legs, But I think they killed the horrors honestly. The thing is with so few units, losing a unit is HUGE. I think if it was just a nerf it'd be one thing, but also look how much other factions got buffed. I think it will be a big swing and average tzeentch demons players are going to be finding themselves with too little stuff vs enemies with much more stuff now.
I definitely agree that it's good they are taking big swings
Amazing content guys, you’re incredible
Thanks so much!
Loved it guys! Great discussion!
Glad you enjoyed it, it was a long one!
2:10:05 this is something that 40k is doing that AoS can steal notes for. Regular price. reinforced price.
And you can tweak those points all over the place. 330/700 for instance for Varanguard. You can even incentivize certain units with things like 100/180 or something.
Simple and clean and works with what we have already
I think being down by 6 go get a normal double turn is the right amount. Mathematically, even if you play a perfect 10 point turn, your opponent then only need to do a battle tactic and hold an objective to stay one point ahead of you at the end of that battle round.
I miss being able to catch the show live. Hoping I'll get to catch more live episodes next year!
Here’s to 2025. Hope you’re doing well Tori and hope you’ve got some solid decks brewing for Holy Wars in the spring.
@@VinceVenturellaabsolutely!! Really looking forward to some more games of both AoS and commander.
"Rules need changing, not points" should be an entire episode now that it's basically confirmed that every tome will be a copy of their index. All of them were written months ago so even if IDK needs new rules you can almost guarantee that they won't get it.
Actual rule changes in codices will probably happen. Around halfway through the edition.
Yey for Tyler!!
My issue with darkoath is why I hate the change to Marks. When you make them a slow trickle where you can only have battle round number plus one at any time having them on more efficient units will always be better then a barbarian with the same buff
Still here 😊
Hey Vince thanks for the reply last time. Tyler is always my fav guest. He taught me how to play AOS back in the day at Meta. One shot my Lord Skrolk with his dam Tree people...
Always happy to help.
Hi Longstrikes cant redeploy + covering Fire. A Unit can only be a target of the command covering Fire if it didnt run. The declare step is Not possible if you use a run ability in the same turn.
This reasoning would stop longstrikes using 'shoot' and 'charge' if they used 'run' as well since those abilities also say you can't pick a unit that used 'run' in the declare step.
Longstrikes' 'vanguard chamber' ability takes precedence.
It's not clear actually, because shoot in combat units cannot use covering fire even though the explicit wording of that ability would suggest they could.
Covering fire isn't supposed to be a shooting attack, it says to "resolve shooting attacks," which was the original justification for why you could redeploy and counter shoot.
To make all of this even more confusing, they didn't delete the FAQ that says you can redeploy and counter shoot.
So who knows!
i wonder why they havent gone to heros being in units like they went back to for 40k. might give them more play especially if they have to fight
Is there any contraindication to Eltharion getting honour guard with the +2 to move ability as a bonus hero? He can be quite interesting now (point reduction, +2 to move aura, so 12" Infantry move, including Speed of Hysh).
Nope, he can do it!
Vince's anti-Fyreslayer bias was showing when he mentioned half a dozen armies that greatly profit from the new Field Sergeant rule... but only added FS to that list after the chat reminded him. :P
Good Battlescroll overall. I wish they'd add some incentive to go for 3+ regiments to the core rules. I also wish there was a universal way to get extra enhancements. Like 3rd edition had with the Warlord Battalion and the Command Entourage. Why not combine those two ideas and let players pick an additional enhancement for each non-Warlord regiment their army has? This would create a strong push and pull between going low drop and adding more enhancements.
I guess I have to repossess my soulblight if Dan and Travis are
This was another outstanding livestream! Go Team Tyler!
3 hours. Classy 👌🏻
They missed a chance to make Varangaurd 666 pts.
love the field sergant thingy. my 5 drop fureslayers finally have decent move
45:45 wish my sylvaneth had one of these hero’s
should units have two price points maybe? a normal price, and a reinforced price?
I wish there was a seraphon manifestation lore
I am sure there will be whenever their book comes out.
I'm unsure what to think about the several new bonus heroes as if I want the new buff (mostly the +2 move) which seems interesting for a lot of them, I want to maximize my drops anyways (I guess it's nice to have the option to try to fight for priority but going 2nd for a double is also a bit less attractive now it seems like). As for the changes I'm most excited for overall for several of my armies:
-Soulblight: Very excited for the massive points drops on all the vampire heroes as I want to play lists with lots of them (Kritza at 70, the anti-monster named hero also down 40, Raddukar, Lauka Vai, etc.).
-LRL: Eltharion going down in points AND becoming a bonus hero seems quite interesting now to put in a regiment with E&E. Maybe the +1 hit honor guard on the cow seems potentially good (hit/wound on 2s, 5 dmg per attack). The rest doesn't seem to change too much, sentinels and wardens up a little but stoneguards, bladelords going down the same amount and some other hero went down a bit (Lyrior -20 seems nice too) makes up for it probably.
-Ironjawz and Kruleboyz: possibly interesting changes but if leaks I saw are true, their book might be out in less than a month so I don't care so much about it right now.
-Seraphon: carnasaur -40 is nice.
-OBR: I guess that the Stalkers' warscroll was so bad that they're starting to get so cheap now that MAYBE they can be considered (or at 150 they might, I don't know).
-Skaven nice overall.
Bummers:
OBR: +20 on Katakros, the main reason I play him is because I hate the new mechanic with 12 inch bubble. I systematically fail all of my 5+ to deny CPs. The +1 save on 3 units is nice for sure but I already found him a bit overcosted at 500 for what he does. Also no small heroes as bonus heroes means we can't use the new rule for better mobility with stalkers I guess.
Skaven: Is the deceiver really worth 410 points when we compare it to other big monsters that just went down a fair amount of points?
S2D: I wish they made the Gaunt Summoners as bonus heroes and that the Karkadrak went down (they really seem to be trying to push for people to use the one on regular mount).
Having fought Katakros twice, I still consider him massively undercosted. He is one of the biggest force multiplier/support pieces in the entire game. He simply does not die, and though je dishes out damage like a freaking bombing run, even if he sits still for the entire game he is still a massive hassle to deal with.
@@bartholen Here are a few points about Katakros from my experience having played with him 6 games vs different armies in V4 so far.
1- Don't get me wrong, I agree that he is certainly very tanky but he totally can die. I've played with him for 6 games in V4, he did die twice and could have died on 1-2 other occasion (came close and got lucky with dice). My guess is that your army/list(s) you fought him with probably did not have shooting/much magic dmg/big hammer with 3+ rend or high MWs output. I've had Katakros die from 2-3 rounds of 20 LRL sentinels, he died to MWs (Terrorgheists), he would die from a charge of 10 Dawnriders with +1 attack (average of 27 MWs into infantry not even counting a single regular attack going through), he would die to 6 Varanguards, he nearly died to Trogg -3 rend, etc. etc.
2- The reason why shooting and magic are so strong vs him is because you're struggling big time with CPs when you play him (since you need to save 1 CP every round for his +1 save buff which is one of the main reasons you bring him). This leaves you with only 3 CPs (or 4 if underdog) for 2 turns so it becomes difficult to spare some for All Out Defense during shooting phases on top of that or for Rally (and rally is unreliable, I got 1 hp back when I used it on him last time). You possibly have other units you need to protect so the +1 save might not always be on him. You also cannot activate the 5+ ward in the magic or shooting phase.
3- List building is super tight because wizards are kind of mandatory in V4 with manifestations. If you need at least a 2 cast Wizard, that's another +160 pts (if not Arkhan), I'm not sure the 1 cast wizards are enough so it's like an added tax cost that's sort of hidden here. Many other very powerful warscroll force multipliers are already cheaper than him AND also have some casting (and sometimes more damage too, more mobility, etc.). If I compare Katakros + 2 spell cast wizard in terms of utility and cost, Katakros ends up around 230-250 points more expensive than similar equivalent heroes in other armies (Be'Lakor or Ushoran for example). This also means that there's less to force multiply as the hammers aren't cheap in this army, your bubble is probably buffing 1 more unit or 2 more than you would normally if you didn't bring Katakros.
4- His damage profile is good but nothing exceptional for that price cost (the main weapon is the same damage profile or weaker than a lot of other big non-god heroes, the shield is similar to an ok mount, the companions here are what sets him apart but it's basically 5 mortek guards) and if he gets bracketed (not that hard since there's no more healing), instead of having his companion weapons go down, it's his best damage profile that goes from 5 attacks down to 3 and his fighting profile is meh / weak at that point for 520 points.
Overall, what I'm trying to get at here is that you do not bring him for how tanky he is or his damage (those are bonuses). He's very slow, his damage profile is nothing special for his cost. He can be very hard to kill indeed but I've played him with blocks of Archai and the Archai being even tankier than him, still can die vs strong hammers/shooting. The 5+ ignore CP is great on paper but fails the majority of the time in practice (most of my games, it never worked) so that doesn't weight in for me. The +3 control score per unit is nice but you're thin on units and bodies generally with OBR with him so it's rarely major. What's huge about him is the large bubble to buff the whole army (if you don't split too much) instead of 1 12" bubble and the +1 save on 3 units although that leaves you struggling on CPs all game. When I compare him to other similar utility heroes that have more mobility, more damage, spell casts, synergies and such, I personally feel like he should be more around 450-480 range. If I didn't have to pay a spell caster tax on top of him (say manifestations were gone), it might be a different story.
Anyhow, I don't have much fun with my OBR with the bubble mechanic and no more healing/recursion. I'm more excited to play my other armies and if Katakros goes up in points, that'll be better for me if I face him.
5 Maw crusha’s here we go!!
That comment about 330 varangaurd being too expensive but 660 varanguard too cheap is something 40k has been seeing for a while too. Theyve started having different costs for reinforced stuff
Tyler, help mate...I'm really struggling with Soulblight atm, any chance you could send me a list to try? My bloodnknights just aren't doing work, always some reason that they don't get the charge off.
Hey man, I'll give this some thought and send you a couple lists soon.
As a starting point, here's some thoughts from a friend, who's been thinking pretty deeply about Soulblight and having some success with them.
"For Soulblight, I think you definitely want to start with one of the big heroes. I think Vhordrai or Neferata are probably the 2 best/easiest build around options, but Manny is obviously still great.
"2x5 or 1x10 Blood Knights to go with them I think is a must. You know I prefer 5s for them cause of footprint but 10 can still work. [Ed: He's been running Vhordrai + 5 Blood Knights to great effect.]
"20 Grave Guard I've really come around on, and being able to take a Wight King as a Field Sergeant to hold your Lash of the Sire and Orb of Enchantment with the GG is a great pick at only 100 points now.
"After those you could go another big hero, like both Vhordrai and Neffy I've seen people running that and it seems really good; but genuinely I think Lauka Vai is an excellent pick for that spot with her points now. She gives you more points to work with to get loads of summonables on the table.
"Cado is a great option to put in if you're okay going over 2 drops (and I think Soulblight does absolutely fine going higher drops as we've talked about). His ability to get key spells out is unmatched for his points.
"At least 1 unit of Fell Bats is auto include imo for tactics, and then after you have these things, I think you just fill it out with your choice of MSU zombies and skellies for loads of bodies on the table and recursion.
"Avoids: I would avoid Dire Wolves unless your running Belladamma. I've tried them and I just can't get past the Beast keyword, it makes them feel so bad, and Bats will do what I want to do with them, just better. Belladamma is perfectly fine to run though if you want dogs.
"In short, get your core of big hero + Blood Knights, 20 Grave Guard, and another supporting combat piece, and then you really can take so many options; the book is super flexible.
"Also more avoids: Corpse Cart, Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist (still not worth even after points drops imo; 5+ save and gamble damage isn't great), generic Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon - both of his abilities are just bad, so it's basically 400 points for just its combat profile, which is fine but not worth it imo).
"Radukar the Beast I think is also another good option for that supporting combat piece slot. At -30 points he's much more enticing imo."
@TylerEmerson wow that's such a great run down. Worthy of a show, thank you for doing that, merry Christmas to you and yours.
Vince I need your sage help and intervention, with the point drops and current rules, the devil on my shoulder is telling me to run a 5 Maw Crusha List…that’s a bad idea right??
Yes, but also...no. ;)
Would love to hear some thoughts on why screening is so much weaker this edition.
Your units need to be reinforced to be good, points are generally up, number of units is down, pressure has been to low drops, prospectors are needed around the edges to do battle tactics. So basically, there is no room left for chafe.
@VinceVenturella thank you. Really cool to see a reply from you. Great show keep it up.
I was initially super hyped for this battlescroll/points update, but then Rob showed us the orruk warclans book and now i don't know if i have the ability to put a destruction army on the table anymore. I even had a winning record at my lgs with ogres and IJ for over 30+ games but the amount i have to work to make them viable and pull out all the tricks is frustrating. How did two sub 50% (48% kb and 43% ij) winrate armies get nerfed?!?!?!I was on pace to finish painting my IJ army for my third AoS event so I'm not the "TO with the unpainted army" meme but all motivation has been sucked out of the room. I'm genuinely considering not playing and holding space for the three other grand alliance players to have fun, but as a destruction player mainly, this blows.
Play their regiments of renown, it's very good
@JebodiahJunfan you mean their AoR? Yeah I saw Rob going over them afterwards which is nice but damn for my army to function I have to use something originally designed to be restrictive, yay? It's weird imo that that's the only viable way.
@@lat1n0_h0t yeah sorry that's what I mean, the two big waghh and IJ ones are great
Covering fire specifically says the unit can not have used a run ability. So Longstrikes can't redeploy and covering fire.
Tyleeeeeerrrrr !!!!
Best. Battlescroll. Ever. I do wish they didnt allow varanguard to be reinforced. I only play 3 and struggle with their cost.
I feel like based on many of your comments maybe the game would just be better by just eliminating reinforced units from the game. It would have a lot of knock on effects but it feels like most of them would be positive. thooughts?
It's certainly a radical idea, and it would make for a very different game.
Yay for Tyler!
Insta-like as soon as I saw Tyler!
Is it me or Tyler mic keep cutting ?
It does, we get it fixed at one point.
@ yeah you told him like moments after i write the message… should have wait ha ha ha!
NH just got dumpstered.
RETURN OF THE KING
Hearing this without the Katawa Shoujou music just feels weird at this point
Single handedly made me stop watching HeyWoah.
Liked and commented for Tyler
Vince I think you are wrong about Stormvermin. Ofc we will have to wait and see, but people have been playing them and with the new points and their support hero going down they are incredibly efficient damage dealers.
With just Krittok a reinforced unit has an avg of 22.2 dmg vs a 4+ save and thats a 240 pts unit. I will definetively test 60 sotrmvermin in clawhorde before I just to comclusions.
Also the globadiers are now in terms of dmg per point just a little bit behind ratling guns, but boy if they shoot into the 10 models blocks their damage skyrockets
Stormverin main failing now is its unit size m8
Their output is fine but they aren't all that fast and they can't take a hit. They are supposed go a porcupine unit but instead they just get squashed
I'm hyped for globadiers
As said above, it’s not about their damage, I can get they out of multiple units. It’s delivery and survival. You’re going to get caught by cav units and blown off the table in one go. That’s the challenge. Now maybe 60 is enough, I’m going to try that with Darmonettesz, but it’s a flawed strategy.
@@VinceVenturella Fair enough. I also don't think the SV will be the new star in Skaven, but now they are at least worth trying.
Also with the unique hero and warpseer we can move 2 units 10" with 3 clawsteps, so I think there is at least some counterplay there. I will for sure test it, I love me some Stormvermin :)