While I understand the reasons 7th wasn't as popular, I really like it. The emphasis on ranked units over herohammer was something that appealed to me and while it did make a 2000 point army more expensive overall, I found that by the time I'd built and painted a unit I had more than enough in my account to buy the next one so armies just grew very naturally.
🤔Never forget🔍: The (utterly frivolous* ) 🧲Chapterhouse Lawsuit🪄* was brought about while *_👹MARK WELLS👹_* was at the Helm as CEO.....-&- ended up bankrupting Chapterhouse, even though the Judge threw out most of the Charges (like GW trying to Copyright things like 'PAULDRONS (Shoulder Pads) -&- CHEVRONS (Military Markings around since the Romans)
Great to have perhaps the best, most thoughtful, comprehensive and downright pleasant documentaries on Warhammer's development return for another installment. The work you do is essential to the hobby, and will no doubt be referenced in turn by future gaming historians for decades to come.
🤔Never forget🔍: The (utterly frivolous* ) *🧲Chapterhouse Lawsuit🪄* was brought about while *_👹MARK WELLS👹_* was at the Helm as CEO.....and ended up bankrupting Chapterhouse, even though the Judge threw out most of the Charges (like GW trying to Copyright things like 'PAULDRONS (Shoulder Pads) -&- CHEVRONS ((Military Markings around since the Romans))
I worked on the fantasy battle rulebooks. Mainly 8th doing design and photography changing up the format. Good vid. But interestingly this is the first time I’ve heard the black and red books mentioned. I really respect Mark Wells but I do not like the leadership manual and the way they were rolled out. In fairness to him if it’s used correctly it’s useful. But the idea of ‘good fit’ was actually trained and the company line I got given in the ‘fit training’ was to be a good fit you ‘must always put the company first’. In reality this meant you could end up being a bad fit simply by disagreeing with your boss or management. Something quite likely if you’re a creative trying to break new ground. Once you’re labelled a bad fit you would be managed out with ‘redundancy’ which was nothing more than a payout to avoid going through a proper disciplinary procedure. Colleagues would get asked if they had 5 mins for a chat and you’d never see them again! I won’t name the names but there were many from the credits screenshot and colleagues over the years who got this treatment. Often with people being made redundant only for a junior being put in place with the same job title. It happened so much in fact that Kev Rountree acknowledged it in an all hands meet around 2011 ish. He said the company would focus more on people development rather than redundancy. Maybe it took time for this to take effect but more close colleagues were made redundant for tenuous reasons. I left before I saw any change.
I think that would likely be a good way to win an employment tribunal these days, as Tesco has recently been in trouble for their hire and fire actions and the weak redundancy claims where someone else took the role.
I was actually fascinated by the red and black book discussion. GW seems to make decisions in such an odd fashion. I feel like those books might help explain some of the pieces I'm missing for why they do things.
Goonhammer has a fantastic 2pt article tracing the rise of GWs creepy corporate culture and Gorkamorka's role in it, I highly recommend. High quality journalism isn't what I've come to expect from our little hobby but anyone with an interest in this channel will learn a lot.
Great video essay! Very on point! One important bit you have purposefully left out of the picture with 7th edition, at least in my opinion, is that 7th felt like more like a genuine attempt at refining what felt a bit off in the previous edition of rules, like toning down magic but making it more efficient and varied rather than straight overpowered, so much so, that the true problem with 7th edition, as you also explained, was basically solely in the powercreep of it's army books, for 7th edition core rules paired with only 6th edition armybooks felt like the best version of warhammer rules we had so far, at least for my local environment. and before the release of the Old World here we still palyed tournaments with that exact match made in heaven. BEST WARHAMMER I HAD.
Jordan, thank you for all the effort you put into these, this is absolutely fascinating. You're becoming an archivist of Warhammer history, curating a lore that is as deep, mysterious and complex as anything to be found in an Army Book or Bill King novel! Fantastic stuff, more power to you!
I understand that 7th wasn't exactly the best of expansion but it started when i was 16 and at that time i started working after school and i was getting some money. So i was able for the first time to follow all the pubblications (few that there was), buy all the army books and starting to build my 2nd army from new material and not scraps from ebay. So, even if was not the brightest time for Fantasy, for me, it heralded a quite literal reinessance for my passion for the hobby. As always, this work of yours was EPIC man, keep at it!
7th edition is my all time favorite edition of Warhammer. It offered slight improvements on the already amazing 6th edition core rulebook. All 6th edition army books worked with it perfectly. The 7th army books were incredibly overpowered as most people know. But for my money you don’t get better than the 7th edition core rules with 6th edition army books.
i can totally agree. While a few armies seem to be quite overpowered (vampires and dark elves) they could also be very weak or balanced, when the player didnt abuse the OP elements. Demons on the other hand was just broken at its core. Vampires can turn from dominating everything by winning just through attrition or with brutal hammer units to kind of meh and frustrating to play, when the opposition cancels out your magic and shoots you to bitz. Vampires vs dwarves is always a pain the ass. Vampires against a artillery and shooting heavy empire list can also be painful. (worst units to fight against as undead or chaos is Steamtanks and Organguns) So in one way yes, there are books that are much stronger than others, but at the same time, its more like Rock Paper Scissors on what your opponent brings. High Elves slaughter empire with ease. But against Ogres or Chaos....
I played mostly Wood elves and Tomb Kings in 7th so yes I agree they worked amazingly well. I still play 7th but we tend to also use 6th edition armybooks with only a few holdouts, Empire tends to be 7th and I personally like to use the Warhammer Army Project rules for Dogs of War 7th edition.
The 7th edition ruleset was my favourite they ever made (before TOW), but we usually played with 6th edition army books. They're so good! On a slightly more cynical note: while GW might use the absolutely disgusting harassment of Matt Ward and other artists as a excuse for not crediting them, it's probably more likely they do it to keep their artists from getting notoriety. Thus keeping down their wages and making it harder for them to get other job offers.
These videos are so fascinating and enjoyable. I hope that at some point you go over the history of Warhammer Fantasy roleplay as well, that would be really interesting to learn about.
Absolutely your best video yet. This together with all the interviews people like yourself and the painting phase have done really shed light on the changes that occurred in the company. Fascinating stuff for us long time hobbyists
The depth of your research never ceases to amaze, and being able to supplement it with actual interviews really adds context. I’m not sure I played more than one game under seventh, and reverted to sixth post end times. I’ll have to agree to disagree about the mechanical horse though 😂
@@jordansorceryIt was outstanding as always. Love your entire catalog of videos, but the ones related to WHFB have been immensely enjoyable to watch with the release of The Old World. It's been fun having waves of nostalgia seeing old minis, rulebooks and art that I probably haven't seen since they were new!
Excellent video! So glad I’ve found your channel. Gods, I’ve met so many managers like Kirby and even Wells. I’m always so surprised how companies survive in spite of their managers.
I was out of the hobby in 7th edition, so it’s very interesting to hear about the edition and what went on behind the scenes. Such a shame it led to the demise of fantasy. But it has risen from the ashes in the Old World!
That was another fine trip down the memory lane, thank you :) The one thing I found missing was the creation and incredible success of probably the biggest grassroot initiative in Warhammer ever - the European Team Championships, and its impact on the game for both good and ill. For example, players who looked for some guidance in the crazy Daemons-Vampires-Dark Elf days of the 7th could for the first time look to balancing patches offered by a respected international commitee of players (who really knew the game inside out, certainly much better than the designers) instead of their local TOs. And players gathered around the ETC were responsible for upholding the legacy of WFB once GW let go of it by creating the immensely popular 9th Age. On the other hand, the obsession with "training for the ETC" coincided with requirements for big armies in the 8th and created yet another barrier of entry for new players who couldn't count on playing smaller games in their local communities or at tournaments. EDIT: Unless, off course, you're leaving this part of the story for the episode about the 8th edition, because it was then, that the ETC really exploded with popularity :)
I wouldn't call 9th Age popular tbh. I do think that the ETC had a place. It's distorting effect though of making everything about tournaments and min maxing mindset it instilled in players definitely hurt the game though.
@@thomassaxon8254Well, I guess depends where you live. In Poland t9A has been beating the AoS* in popularity and AFAIK still does, or has stopped doing that only recently. *-with AoS still widely considered a "joke game"
I remember picking up the 7th Ed collector edition. That medieval tapestry empire vs chaos cover drew me in like nothing else. Fond memories, although I wasn’t a huge fan of the empire line revamp where they lost a lot of their ruffles.
Fantastic summary of not only WFB, but GW as a whole back then. I also feel very good about myself leaving 40k after 7th edition of that game. The corporation of Games Workshop, while incredible, is not the cup of tea that hooked me back in the 80's. Thank you Jordan. 👍❤️😎
Another well-researched, measured and fascinating video! A couple of other moves by GW around the release of 7th that were a bit 'off' and perhaps demonstrated a shift in company strategy included the reduction in unit box contents (e.g. Empire State Troops went from 16 down to 10 - box price was cheaper, but not per head - thus it became more expensive to buy full units), reduction in the quality of White Dwarf (feel like this commenced with the infamous 'plastic giant issue'), and I think GW started to tighten up on communication with the community (e.g. rumours became harder to come by, no previews at Games Days, releases only known about a week in advance). In saying that, I still bought plenty of models and books. However, for the first time I started to look at other games, such as Warmahordes.
Excellent work Jordan!! Can't wait for 8th edition : ) ALSO,, you should get Duncan Rhodes on for a fun chill and paint video while you chat about GW history stuff.
This is an incredible real look at a very particular time and place. The narrative and preceding events make the edition make sense. This is my favorite video of yours.
Really great breakdown, I loved the general company history stuff the most. I feel like it’s something with a lot of public documentation but is sort of hard to find, and will eventually be lost to time unless people document it in more modern accessible places like this. The history of the red/black book was super cool to hear
Outstanding work and well worth the wait, Jordan! You navigated the massive tonal shift between 6th and 7th edition perfectly. I just wish more of the contributors from the era were open to talking about it!
Excellent video... we remember when GW lost it's sense of humour LOL, and a lot of the designers and White Dwarf mob we followed left. Greatest thing I remember about those rules was winning a State GW GT Comp with Dwarves I had just got and added to my old metals from the Skull Pass box set. Cheers 😃👍
Another fantastic video Jordan, really awesome. So much important connected information, and it really helps to flesh out my understanding of the company as well as the amazing history. Of particular interest was the information regarding the removal of credits for artists. Do you have any more information on this? I am curious as i have found the missing credits for artists frustrating and somewhat disrespectful, but if it is in the vein of protecting the creators, that changes things!
Unpopular opinion (not that I've let that stop me before), but I'd argue that when WHFB 7th Ed first dropped, and the only two new Army Books were Empire and Orcs & Goblins, that was the best state that WHFB had ever been in. The 7th Edition of the game was undone by unchecked Army Book creep, but the core rules were rock solid.
I started collecting in 4th edition, played battles for first time during 5th edition, took a break during age of sigmars beginning and have now returned along with the return of warhammer the old world (unofficially 9th edition). Its good to be back.
I am 100% certain that changing the ranks to be 5 wide happened late in the development process, because the Dwarf ranks are built 4 wide in the starter, which was the way things were prior for all previous editions. So in the starter the Night Goblins enjoy the rank bonus while the Dwarves didn’t, except the warriors if you re-aligned them. I will say this though: the Battle for Skull Pass was an excellent starter. Great looking armies and some interesting terrain pieces. Also, around this time, 40K 4th edition was out, and it included a great scenario guide with a brilliant expansion called The Battle Rages On. It introduced new units in an escalating campaign showing how to play new units. I think the same was intended for 7th, given the starter’s components, but they seemed to just drop the idea. Maybe it was due to realizing the rank width, or just cheaping out. I don’t know. What I do know is if they had done the same treatment for 7th that they did for 40K 4th, it would have been pretty awesome for new players. Which by the way, was a big problem for WFB. And crazy enough, they did worse for 8th by now even including the unit stats for the armies in that starter. It’s like either GW stopped caring, or put an intern in charge. And they wonder why the game didn’t sell. Anyway, what didn’t disappoint during this time were the models. Some amazing stuff was released then and was so good it’s making a comeback.
I really hope that after you’re done with 8th Edition, you’ll do 40k’s editions next! This is hands down the best Warhammer content on UA-cam next to Snipe and Wib’s Codex Compliant series!
Its great seeing that my group wasn't alone in loving 7th edition with 6th edition armybooks. The only things that disappointed me in 7th was the power creep, the lack of GW support and the lack of an armybook update for my Dogs of War.
This was a great overview of the making of 7th ed. Loved it. However, GW's ridiculous excuse for not crediting writers and artists is absurd and shouldn't be given any credibility. It has far more to do with GW not wanting to pay people what they're worth than protecting their employees for harassment.
EDIT: I disagree, there was a LOT of hate thrown at a single writer Matt Ward IIRC, even to the point I believe death threats against him were made during the early 2000's while he worked on WH40k, which must be appalling to be on the receiving end of.
@@darrenrichardson6146 I think you're thinking of Matt Ward. I'm quite sympathetic to him especially because his later work was much better (thinking of the elf armybooks for 8th ed whfb) but at the time I remember it mostly as people hating in the way it was fashionable to hate nickelback. I know there are inexcusable POS who harass and threaten people but one can't ignore the fact that the principal beneficiary of this decision has been GW and not the writers, artists, sculptors etc who have been robbed of the recognition they deserve for their work. Denying people the right to credit for their work is not standard practice in any creative industry I'm aware of. Incidentally Matt Ward writes novels now and he publishes them under his own name.
Definitely your best “history of” to date well worth for the wait. The use of sources from your previous interviews coupled with obvious knowledgeable research made your very fair assertions a new and far more positive view of the complexities facing WFB from 7th Ed into 8th Ed. Please share the vid is all I can say to do any justice for the excellent content on this channel.
Excellent video! I hadn't heard the tale of the managerial books before, so thank you. The shift in GW was subtle at first, but grew more apparent with White Dwarf at the time too. Although I am a fan of Tolkien's works, and the films, I knew I wouldn't enjoy the miniature game setting because it felt already set in stone. Plus the slightly smaller scale was a bit off for my existing terrain. I grew to resent seeing LoTR stuff taking up WD article space, and less WHF love. I never picked up 7th edition because I felt they couldn't improve much on 6th :)
I've watched this twice in the last 72 hours. Amazing content and so well laid out. Subscribed for sure. Any possibility of covering the 8th edition soon? 😉
Glad you enjoyed it! 8th edition (and a separate End Times video) is on the way, but there's still a few other videos between now and then! Hopefully not too long though!
This is the first I've heard or seen of the black book and red book. It makes me think of a specific Commissar, though. The mini who has his foot on an autocannon magazine, with his power fist held high as he reads aloud from a book. I believe I see a subtle joke falling into place with all those pieces now.
Amazing video and amazing work as always, Jordan, very much worth the wait. Your style of historically documenting these games is just going from strength to strength. For my part, I had no experience with 7th edition, however, so this comment will simply be another of those feeding the Algorithmic Lords. May they feast well, and may your next video come swiftly!
Thanks Jackal. It felt like there were a lot of threads with this one so definitely gave me pause pulling it all together - hopefully it made some sense of it all!
I never got into Warhammer Fantasy, as I was just getting into 40k when it's 6th edition was about to come out, but was always mystified and intrigued by it and it's history. I was always very curious about getting into it one day, especially after a friend's dad gave me some of his old metal chaos dwarf models. After it was discontinued and replaced with AoS, I must say, it makes me very sad to have missed out on the lore, setting and armies that WHFB had. There's something about the aesthetic and theme of it that I find so much more interesting than AoS. I know TOW is a thing, but I feel it's not the same anymore, especially since I always wanted to start a Dark Elf army. Oh well. Thank you for covering the history of these so I can catch up on everything I missed out on!
Great vid again,still have Harry the hammer to build and paint and still have a skull pass box complete and a few unreleased metal plates figures from the box,still love lord of the rings range and paint up the figures regularly and have over a 1000 painted now.
I ran a game store for 25 years and we had a huge Fantasy Battles community. 7th was the game that dealt the first death blow to Warhammer's fandom. Army books like Daemons, Vampires and Dark Elves were so OP that many people stopped playing until 8th came out. 8th had problems too, but it was much better balanced than 7th.
My brother started w40k when he bought Space Crusade back in 1991. I started collecting minis on my own with the LOTR magazines, still got them up to the 37th ^^ And I stopped buying minis when w40k 6th edition was released, and stopped being interested in GW stuff a few years before (around 2008, that's where I draw the line for lore stuff, kinda.) What Gav Thorpe said about the setting and the story concept is really cool, I always assumed that Warhammer Fantasy, with the events of Storm of Chaos (NOT End Times) is a great story, whereas W40k is a great setting. The midnight minus 2 concept was awesome for w40k, until they decided to move past midnight. Why ? cause w40k is a whole galaxy so that anybody can make his own story in a particulair sector whitout breaking the game canon. In Warhammer Fantasy, for instance, only the border princes and a few other regiosn where vague enough to make up your own story compatible with the canon.
As cool and as much of a fan of LoTR I am I knew it would never replace Warhammer fantasy on the tabletop. The entire thing could have essentially fit within a small part of WF were it not for legal and corporate mumbo. I guess we're just coming around to this now.
I actually remember Tom Kirby made an appearance at a SF CA game convention "Kubla Con". It was interesting talking to him. I think he even brought his infamous red book to.
I still remember that brief time, when I had a demon army during 7. edition.. winning suddenly became easy.. OH and one of my friends worked in GW during the time of the black and red books. He described it kind of like a cult.
there were 6 years between 40k 3rd & 4th, but that misses out on the major updates to 40k's core rules introduced in white dwarf and then collected in 'Chapter Approved', which, along with a sharp shift in the design philosophy of 40k's faction books (going from the slim & streamlined books & supplements that characterized early 3rd edition to larger books with a greater emphasis on lore, artwork, and much more detailed unit & faction rules) effectively constituted a soft new edition referred to by players at the time as 3.5, echoing nomenclature from wizard of the coast's revised relaunch of 3rd edition D&D
This may just be me hoping for more content, but do you think you'll split the 8th edition story into separate "vanilla" and End Times videos? It really does seem like there was a clear delineation between the two phases. I missed out on it all originally, so that's just from a purely retrovisionist perspective.
Things can change in the research and writing, but at the moment I am leaning towards covering them as separate videos. 8th before the End Times was a pretty well supported edition and plenty happened with its design worth talking about, and it feels like all that would be swamped by The End Times if they’re just in one video.
Excellent video, as I knew it would be. Those glimpses inside the pages of White Dwarf... THAT is what an issue of White Dwarf should look like, beardling. None of these fancy full-bleed graphics with more layers than a Dwarven hold. Simpler! Straightforward like stone. Most of my WFB gaming happened during 6th ed. but I enjoyed this look at 7th. I've got that Nemesis Crown pamphlet and the WD issues to go with it. The infamous black and red books... my wife is a writer/editor of corporate communications and, oh man, these needed some serious editing. I know these books are regarded with some not insignificant horror in the community but they appear to have had zero editing by the author or anyone else in the chain before they rolled off the press. Very clunky writing. re: Lord of the Rings. Those 3 initial box sets to go along with the movie releases were heaven. I enjoyed the hell out of those. Those early years were the pinnacle of MESBG gaming, imho. It wasn't about crafting an army list to win, it was about recreating the scenes from the movies and books. Very cinematic and all about story. I think that's the game where the rules fell away and the fun of what was unfolding on the battlefield was most successfully achieved by any tabletop miniatures game I've played over the years. As the system aged, in inevitably got tweaked with and more elaborate until it was possible to build a WAAC army list. I had zero interest in playing the game that way, but the miniatures? The spectacle? Fantastic. It's no wonder that Fantasy Battle suffered with the rise of the LotR range. Unfortunate, but not surprising.
7th was my intro to WH Fantasy and although I moved away towards 40k as I went through my teens it's world captivated me with it's darker and more unique fantasy lore. Since then I have come to apprecciate it more and more, in part due to it's setting not yet being devoid of hope like 40k is, but also due to it's fun and vibrant miniatures. When it got killed off by the End Times I was devestated and honestly, hurt. Now I own both a 6th and 7th edition rule book and need only a couple more Skaven and Empire units before I can retire from the hobby with all I need to play the occasional game and enjoy my fond times in it's grand setting. (I mean, that is if I can hold myself back from buying more OOP minis, and after I get the close to 100 or so that I have painted!😆)
While I understand the reasons 7th wasn't as popular, I really like it. The emphasis on ranked units over herohammer was something that appealed to me and while it did make a 2000 point army more expensive overall, I found that by the time I'd built and painted a unit I had more than enough in my account to buy the next one so armies just grew very naturally.
I now understand why you had problems with the script for this episode. This is the most interesting video of yours so far, very measured.
There was a lot to unpack with this one in the end, I’m glad it came across in a reasonable way
🤔Never forget🔍: The (utterly frivolous* ) 🧲Chapterhouse Lawsuit🪄* was brought about while *_👹MARK WELLS👹_* was at the Helm as CEO.....-&- ended up bankrupting Chapterhouse, even though the Judge threw out most of the Charges (like GW trying to Copyright things like 'PAULDRONS (Shoulder Pads) -&- CHEVRONS (Military Markings around since the Romans)
Great to have perhaps the best, most thoughtful, comprehensive and downright pleasant documentaries on Warhammer's development return for another installment. The work you do is essential to the hobby, and will no doubt be referenced in turn by future gaming historians for decades to come.
What a lovely comment! Thank you so much
🤔Never forget🔍: The (utterly frivolous* ) *🧲Chapterhouse Lawsuit🪄* was brought about while *_👹MARK WELLS👹_* was at the Helm as CEO.....and ended up bankrupting Chapterhouse, even though the Judge threw out most of the Charges (like GW trying to Copyright things like 'PAULDRONS (Shoulder Pads) -&- CHEVRONS ((Military Markings around since the Romans))
I worked on the fantasy battle rulebooks. Mainly 8th doing design and photography changing up the format. Good vid.
But interestingly this is the first time I’ve heard the black and red books mentioned.
I really respect Mark Wells but I do not like the leadership manual and the way they were rolled out. In fairness to him if it’s used correctly it’s useful.
But the idea of ‘good fit’ was actually trained and the company line I got given in the ‘fit training’ was to be a good fit you ‘must always put the company first’.
In reality this meant you could end up being a bad fit simply by disagreeing with your boss or management. Something quite likely if you’re a creative trying to break new ground.
Once you’re labelled a bad fit you would be managed out with ‘redundancy’ which was nothing more than a payout to avoid going through a proper disciplinary procedure. Colleagues would get asked if they had 5 mins for a chat and you’d never see them again!
I won’t name the names but there were many from the credits screenshot and colleagues over the years who got this treatment. Often with people being made redundant only for a junior being put in place with the same job title.
It happened so much in fact that Kev Rountree acknowledged it in an all hands meet around 2011 ish. He said the company would focus more on people development rather than redundancy.
Maybe it took time for this to take effect but more close colleagues were made redundant for tenuous reasons. I left before I saw any change.
I think that would likely be a good way to win an employment tribunal these days, as Tesco has recently been in trouble for their hire and fire actions and the weak redundancy claims where someone else took the role.
I was actually fascinated by the red and black book discussion. GW seems to make decisions in such an odd fashion. I feel like those books might help explain some of the pieces I'm missing for why they do things.
Give 1984 a read. All will become clear.
When you say “his goal of total world domination” I cannot but imagine Kirby as a Bond villain
Goonhammer has a fantastic 2pt article tracing the rise of GWs creepy corporate culture and Gorkamorka's role in it, I highly recommend. High quality journalism isn't what I've come to expect from our little hobby but anyone with an interest in this channel will learn a lot.
Great video essay! Very on point! One important bit you have purposefully left out of the picture with 7th edition, at least in my opinion, is that 7th felt like more like a genuine attempt at refining what felt a bit off in the previous edition of rules, like toning down magic but making it more efficient and varied rather than straight overpowered, so much so, that the true problem with 7th edition, as you also explained, was basically solely in the powercreep of it's army books, for 7th edition core rules paired with only 6th edition armybooks felt like the best version of warhammer rules we had so far, at least for my local environment. and before the release of the Old World here we still palyed tournaments with that exact match made in heaven. BEST WARHAMMER I HAD.
Jordan, thank you for all the effort you put into these, this is absolutely fascinating. You're becoming an archivist of Warhammer history, curating a lore that is as deep, mysterious and complex as anything to be found in an Army Book or Bill King novel! Fantastic stuff, more power to you!
I understand that 7th wasn't exactly the best of expansion but it started when i was 16 and at that time i started working after school and i was getting some money. So i was able for the first time to follow all the pubblications (few that there was), buy all the army books and starting to build my 2nd army from new material and not scraps from ebay. So, even if was not the brightest time for Fantasy, for me, it heralded a quite literal reinessance for my passion for the hobby.
As always, this work of yours was EPIC man, keep at it!
7th edition is my all time favorite edition of Warhammer. It offered slight improvements on the already amazing 6th edition core rulebook. All 6th edition army books worked with it perfectly. The 7th army books were incredibly overpowered as most people know. But for my money you don’t get better than the 7th edition core rules with 6th edition army books.
I’m a big fan of the 7th edition core book, and totally agree it works really well with the 6th Armies books
i can totally agree.
While a few armies seem to be quite overpowered (vampires and dark elves) they could also be very weak or balanced, when the player didnt abuse the OP elements.
Demons on the other hand was just broken at its core.
Vampires can turn from dominating everything by winning just through attrition or with brutal hammer units to kind of meh and frustrating to play, when the opposition cancels out your magic and shoots you to bitz.
Vampires vs dwarves is always a pain the ass. Vampires against a artillery and shooting heavy empire list can also be painful. (worst units to fight against as undead or chaos is Steamtanks and Organguns)
So in one way yes, there are books that are much stronger than others, but at the same time, its more like Rock Paper Scissors on what your opponent brings.
High Elves slaughter empire with ease. But against Ogres or Chaos....
Yes that's exactly it. 7th edition with 6th edition army balance is great. Hell, you could even play 8th edition with 6th edition books.
I played mostly Wood elves and Tomb Kings in 7th so yes I agree they worked amazingly well. I still play 7th but we tend to also use 6th edition armybooks with only a few holdouts, Empire tends to be 7th and I personally like to use the Warhammer Army Project rules for Dogs of War 7th edition.
The 7th edition ruleset was my favourite they ever made (before TOW), but we usually played with 6th edition army books. They're so good!
On a slightly more cynical note: while GW might use the absolutely disgusting harassment of Matt Ward and other artists as a excuse for not crediting them, it's probably more likely they do it to keep their artists from getting notoriety. Thus keeping down their wages and making it harder for them to get other job offers.
I agree, 7th refined the already good 6th ed rules, and I enjoyed it a lot, but the army books definitely had a power creep problem.
Yep, I wouldn't doubt it. If a company is trying to hide the fact you worked on something, it's probably not because they care about you.
Same here, TOW is new king of WFB for me, and 7th my fav "classic" fantasy battle edition!
Them not crediting their creatives is one of the scummiest things they've ever done
These videos are so fascinating and enjoyable. I hope that at some point you go over the history of Warhammer Fantasy roleplay as well, that would be really interesting to learn about.
You’ve totally nailed this Jordan. I know it’s been more challenging than most, but your hard work has paid off.
Cheers Stu, I’m glad it seems to have come together in the end!
6th-7th editions we're my favorite times in the hobby
Absolutely your best video yet. This together with all the interviews people like yourself and the painting phase have done really shed light on the changes that occurred in the company. Fascinating stuff for us long time hobbyists
The depth of your research never ceases to amaze, and being able to supplement it with actual interviews really adds context. I’m not sure I played more than one game under seventh, and reverted to sixth post end times. I’ll have to agree to disagree about the mechanical horse though 😂
It’s very silly, but that mechanical horse really works for me!
What a great Friday surprise! I started WHFB at the launch of 6th edition and 6th-7th ed. was my favorite era of WHFB. Very excited to watch this.
Hope it lived up to the surprise!
@@jordansorceryIt was outstanding as always. Love your entire catalog of videos, but the ones related to WHFB have been immensely enjoyable to watch with the release of The Old World. It's been fun having waves of nostalgia seeing old minis, rulebooks and art that I probably haven't seen since they were new!
Fantastic job, as always, Jordan. I lived through most of this history, yet having it recounted as a narrative has been really enjoyable.
Thank you, I’m glad it has been fun to watch!
Excellent video! So glad I’ve found your channel.
Gods, I’ve met so many managers like Kirby and even Wells. I’m always so surprised how companies survive in spite of their managers.
I was out of the hobby in 7th edition, so it’s very interesting to hear about the edition and what went on behind the scenes. Such a shame it led to the demise of fantasy. But it has risen from the ashes in the Old World!
Nice ending - looking forward to winding back time to 8th Ed. with your next chapter!
7th was an awesome edition. I love it.
Immediate thumbs-up. Been so excited for a new entry in this series!
That was another fine trip down the memory lane, thank you :)
The one thing I found missing was the creation and incredible success of probably the biggest grassroot initiative in Warhammer ever - the European Team Championships, and its impact on the game for both good and ill.
For example, players who looked for some guidance in the crazy Daemons-Vampires-Dark Elf days of the 7th could for the first time look to balancing patches offered by a respected international commitee of players (who really knew the game inside out, certainly much better than the designers) instead of their local TOs. And players gathered around the ETC were responsible for upholding the legacy of WFB once GW let go of it by creating the immensely popular 9th Age.
On the other hand, the obsession with "training for the ETC" coincided with requirements for big armies in the 8th and created yet another barrier of entry for new players who couldn't count on playing smaller games in their local communities or at tournaments.
EDIT: Unless, off course, you're leaving this part of the story for the episode about the 8th edition, because it was then, that the ETC really exploded with popularity :)
I wouldn't call 9th Age popular tbh.
I do think that the ETC had a place. It's distorting effect though of making everything about tournaments and min maxing mindset it instilled in players definitely hurt the game though.
@@thomassaxon8254Well, I guess depends where you live. In Poland t9A has been beating the AoS* in popularity and AFAIK still does, or has stopped doing that only recently.
*-with AoS still widely considered a "joke game"
@robertchmielecki2580 in the UK and from what I can see of the US it isn't particularly popular.
Obviously location mileage may vary.
7th is when I stopped playing Warhammer. I still own the beautiful tapestry style special rulebook and occasionally flip through it nostalgically…,
Yepp, same here..
Fascinating to hear about the GW versions of Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Red!
I remember picking up the 7th Ed collector edition. That medieval tapestry empire vs chaos cover drew me in like nothing else. Fond memories, although I wasn’t a huge fan of the empire line revamp where they lost a lot of their ruffles.
Jordan you have done an absolutely excellent job on all these so far. Its incredible.
So many good memories with Necromunda and Warhammer..
I watch parts 1-5 of these set of videos all in one go at least once a month.
Never been happier to see a #6 😂
13:28 ''And it served new masters''
My brain: ''The Shadow Cabal!''
Jordan: ''The shareholders''
Close enough.
Fantastic summary of not only WFB, but GW as a whole back then. I also feel very good about myself leaving 40k after 7th edition of that game. The corporation of Games Workshop, while incredible, is not the cup of tea that hooked me back in the 80's. Thank you Jordan. 👍❤️😎
Another well-researched, measured and fascinating video!
A couple of other moves by GW around the release of 7th that were a bit 'off' and perhaps demonstrated a shift in company strategy included the reduction in unit box contents (e.g. Empire State Troops went from 16 down to 10 - box price was cheaper, but not per head - thus it became more expensive to buy full units), reduction in the quality of White Dwarf (feel like this commenced with the infamous 'plastic giant issue'), and I think GW started to tighten up on communication with the community (e.g. rumours became harder to come by, no previews at Games Days, releases only known about a week in advance).
In saying that, I still bought plenty of models and books. However, for the first time I started to look at other games, such as Warmahordes.
As someone who didn't get into Warhammer Fantasy, I'm really enjoying these retrospectives! 😊
Excellent work Jordan!! Can't wait for 8th edition : ) ALSO,, you should get Duncan Rhodes on for a fun chill and paint video while you chat about GW history stuff.
Thank you! That’s a great suggestion, would love to chat with Duncan at some point!
This is an incredible real look at a very particular time and place. The narrative and preceding events make the edition make sense. This is my favorite video of yours.
Thank you very much!
The latest blockbuster is here, amazing work! All that background on GW management makes all the changes we see with the products so much clearer.
Have I missed a making of 8th Edition? Noticed AOS stuff on but no 8th yet?
7th edition is my favourite!
Really great breakdown, I loved the general company history stuff the most. I feel like it’s something with a lot of public documentation but is sort of hard to find, and will eventually be lost to time unless people document it in more modern accessible places like this. The history of the red/black book was super cool to hear
Outstanding work and well worth the wait, Jordan! You navigated the massive tonal shift between 6th and 7th edition perfectly. I just wish more of the contributors from the era were open to talking about it!
Thank you mate, I appreciate these fine words!
Always get a whiff of sulphur when Mark "I went to Cambridge" Wells pops up.
Fantastic. Well worth the wait.
Excellent video... we remember when GW lost it's sense of humour LOL, and a lot of the designers and White Dwarf mob we followed left. Greatest thing I remember about those rules was winning a State GW GT Comp with Dwarves I had just got and added to my old metals from the Skull Pass box set. Cheers 😃👍
Another fantastic video Jordan, really awesome. So much important connected information, and it really helps to flesh out my understanding of the company as well as the amazing history. Of particular interest was the information regarding the removal of credits for artists. Do you have any more information on this? I am curious as i have found the missing credits for artists frustrating and somewhat disrespectful, but if it is in the vein of protecting the creators, that changes things!
Cometh the hour, cometh the man! ❤
Another excellent examination of the development (or otherwise, in this case) of Warhammer. Well done, sir!
Ah yes finally !! Can't wait for thé 8th ed one next !!
Ah the worst edition and the one that killed the game 😢
Unpopular opinion (not that I've let that stop me before), but I'd argue that when WHFB 7th Ed first dropped, and the only two new Army Books were Empire and Orcs & Goblins, that was the best state that WHFB had ever been in. The 7th Edition of the game was undone by unchecked Army Book creep, but the core rules were rock solid.
Totally agree! 7th was a cleaner version of 6th. What killed it, in my opinion, was the power creep.
Not an unpopular opinion, pretty much consensus of everyone I knew who played 6th/7th/8th
@sebastiencarrieres8825 so in theory you could play 7th edition with 6th army books?
I started collecting in 4th edition, played battles for first time during 5th edition, took a break during age of sigmars beginning and have now returned along with the return of warhammer the old world (unofficially 9th edition). Its good to be back.
Keep up the good work Jordi!!!
I am 100% certain that changing the ranks to be 5 wide happened late in the development process, because the Dwarf ranks are built 4 wide in the starter, which was the way things were prior for all previous editions. So in the starter the Night Goblins enjoy the rank bonus while the Dwarves didn’t, except the warriors if you re-aligned them.
I will say this though: the Battle for Skull Pass was an excellent starter. Great looking armies and some interesting terrain pieces.
Also, around this time, 40K 4th edition was out, and it included a great scenario guide with a brilliant expansion called The Battle Rages On. It introduced new units in an escalating campaign showing how to play new units. I think the same was intended for 7th, given the starter’s components, but they seemed to just drop the idea. Maybe it was due to realizing the rank width, or just cheaping out. I don’t know. What I do know is if they had done the same treatment for 7th that they did for 40K 4th, it would have been pretty awesome for new players. Which by the way, was a big problem for WFB.
And crazy enough, they did worse for 8th by now even including the unit stats for the armies in that starter. It’s like either GW stopped caring, or put an intern in charge. And they wonder why the game didn’t sell.
Anyway, what didn’t disappoint during this time were the models. Some amazing stuff was released then and was so good it’s making a comeback.
Appreciate the time and effort on this one Jordan, I think more than most it was important to really get this one right.
Thanks for the incredible work you’re doing. V7 was the version I’ve missed.
I really hope that after you’re done with 8th Edition, you’ll do 40k’s editions next! This is hands down the best Warhammer content on UA-cam next to Snipe and Wib’s Codex Compliant series!
I agree Snipe and Wib are amazing for delving into old army and rule books for anything GW related.
Im going to need a copy of those black and red books! Whos gonna upload them?! 🎉
Its great seeing that my group wasn't alone in loving 7th edition with 6th edition armybooks. The only things that disappointed me in 7th was the power creep, the lack of GW support and the lack of an armybook update for my Dogs of War.
This was a great overview of the making of 7th ed. Loved it. However, GW's ridiculous excuse for not crediting writers and artists is absurd and shouldn't be given any credibility. It has far more to do with GW not wanting to pay people what they're worth than protecting their employees for harassment.
EDIT: I disagree, there was a LOT of hate thrown at a single writer Matt Ward IIRC, even to the point I believe death threats against him were made during the early 2000's while he worked on WH40k, which must be appalling to be on the receiving end of.
@@darrenrichardson6146 I think you're thinking of Matt Ward. I'm quite sympathetic to him especially because his later work was much better (thinking of the elf armybooks for 8th ed whfb) but at the time I remember it mostly as people hating in the way it was fashionable to hate nickelback. I know there are inexcusable POS who harass and threaten people but one can't ignore the fact that the principal beneficiary of this decision has been GW and not the writers, artists, sculptors etc who have been robbed of the recognition they deserve for their work. Denying people the right to credit for their work is not standard practice in any creative industry I'm aware of. Incidentally Matt Ward writes novels now and he publishes them under his own name.
Opps thanks for the name clarification, must have been getting mixed up with another Ward that's does gaming products....
Excellent and loved learning about the background changes influencing it.
really fantastic turns of phrase mate it;s a pleasure listening
Thank you!
Definitely your best “history of” to date well worth for the wait. The use of sources from your previous interviews coupled with obvious knowledgeable research made your very fair assertions a new and far more positive view of the complexities facing WFB from 7th Ed into 8th Ed.
Please share the vid is all I can say to do any justice for the excellent content on this channel.
Excellent video! I hadn't heard the tale of the managerial books before, so thank you. The shift in GW was subtle at first, but grew more apparent with White Dwarf at the time too. Although I am a fan of Tolkien's works, and the films, I knew I wouldn't enjoy the miniature game setting because it felt already set in stone. Plus the slightly smaller scale was a bit off for my existing terrain. I grew to resent seeing LoTR stuff taking up WD article space, and less WHF love. I never picked up 7th edition because I felt they couldn't improve much on 6th :)
Look forward to the 8th edition
Great work as usual Jordon. These in depth look-in's to the Warhammer story are fascinating and insightful. Thanks for your dedication and hard work!
And thank you for watching and commenting, much appreciated!
I've watched this twice in the last 72 hours. Amazing content and so well laid out. Subscribed for sure. Any possibility of covering the 8th edition soon? 😉
Glad you enjoyed it! 8th edition (and a separate End Times video) is on the way, but there's still a few other videos between now and then! Hopefully not too long though!
Excellent episode yet again. Keep it up chum 😊
This was a fascinating watch - thank you for taking the time to script it so carefully.
This is the first I've heard or seen of the black book and red book. It makes me think of a specific Commissar, though. The mini who has his foot on an autocannon magazine, with his power fist held high as he reads aloud from a book. I believe I see a subtle joke falling into place with all those pieces now.
Excellent video. I love how you’ve integrated bits from all of your recent interviews.
Amazing video and amazing work as always, Jordan, very much worth the wait. Your style of historically documenting these games is just going from strength to strength.
For my part, I had no experience with 7th edition, however, so this comment will simply be another of those feeding the Algorithmic Lords. May they feast well, and may your next video come swiftly!
Thanks Jackal. It felt like there were a lot of threads with this one so definitely gave me pause pulling it all together - hopefully it made some sense of it all!
Stellar work as always Jordan.
Did you know Power Creep is an anagram of Matt Ward?
Ultrasmurfs go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...
The Great Work continues
Brilliant vid thank you!
Never knew about 7th edition. So thanks for an entertaining video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video! Really enjoyed the narration of the GW background at the time
I never got into Warhammer Fantasy, as I was just getting into 40k when it's 6th edition was about to come out, but was always mystified and intrigued by it and it's history. I was always very curious about getting into it one day, especially after a friend's dad gave me some of his old metal chaos dwarf models. After it was discontinued and replaced with AoS, I must say, it makes me very sad to have missed out on the lore, setting and armies that WHFB had. There's something about the aesthetic and theme of it that I find so much more interesting than AoS. I know TOW is a thing, but I feel it's not the same anymore, especially since I always wanted to start a Dark Elf army. Oh well. Thank you for covering the history of these so I can catch up on everything I missed out on!
I'm only at minute thirteen and I'm already impressed by your storytelling. Fantastic storytelling Jordan - hats off.
Thank you
Great vid again,still have Harry the hammer to build and paint and still have a skull pass box complete and a few unreleased metal plates figures from the box,still love lord of the rings range and paint up the figures regularly and have over a 1000 painted now.
I have been waiting for this and I'm glad its finally here.
Hope it was worth the wait!
@@jordansorcery Absolutely, this is exactly the sort of deep dive this subject deserves.
I ran a game store for 25 years and we had a huge Fantasy Battles community. 7th was the game that dealt the first death blow to Warhammer's fandom. Army books like Daemons, Vampires and Dark Elves were so OP that many people stopped playing until 8th came out. 8th had problems too, but it was much better balanced than 7th.
Great history thanks
My brother started w40k when he bought Space Crusade back in 1991.
I started collecting minis on my own with the LOTR magazines, still got them up to the 37th ^^
And I stopped buying minis when w40k 6th edition was released, and stopped being interested in GW stuff a few years before (around 2008, that's where I draw the line for lore stuff, kinda.)
What Gav Thorpe said about the setting and the story concept is really cool, I always assumed that Warhammer Fantasy, with the events of Storm of Chaos (NOT End Times) is a great story, whereas W40k is a great setting. The midnight minus 2 concept was awesome for w40k, until they decided to move past midnight. Why ? cause w40k is a whole galaxy so that anybody can make his own story in a particulair sector whitout breaking the game canon. In Warhammer Fantasy, for instance, only the border princes and a few other regiosn where vague enough to make up your own story compatible with the canon.
Loving this series, I just stumbled across it. I'm hoping it won't be another 8 months before the next installment 0.o
Me too!
Been waiting for this video for ages, it’s definitely worth the wait
As cool and as much of a fan of LoTR I am I knew it would never replace Warhammer fantasy on the tabletop. The entire thing could have essentially fit within a small part of WF were it not for legal and corporate mumbo. I guess we're just coming around to this now.
Warhammer 40k 5th edition was my first miniatures war game! 😍
Excellent Job Jordan, absolutely love this channel
I actually remember Tom Kirby made an appearance at a SF CA game convention "Kubla Con". It was interesting talking to him. I think he even brought his infamous red book to.
Im glad you started this channel!!
Another banger, love it, cant wait for the 8th edition and then the fan made, armies project/9th age???
I still remember that brief time, when I had a demon army during 7. edition.. winning suddenly became easy.. OH and one of my friends worked in GW during the time of the black and red books. He described it kind of like a cult.
there were 6 years between 40k 3rd & 4th, but that misses out on the major updates to 40k's core rules introduced in white dwarf and then collected in 'Chapter Approved', which, along with a sharp shift in the design philosophy of 40k's faction books (going from the slim & streamlined books & supplements that characterized early 3rd edition to larger books with a greater emphasis on lore, artwork, and much more detailed unit & faction rules) effectively constituted a soft new edition referred to by players at the time as 3.5, echoing nomenclature from wizard of the coast's revised relaunch of 3rd edition D&D
This may just be me hoping for more content, but do you think you'll split the 8th edition story into separate "vanilla" and End Times videos? It really does seem like there was a clear delineation between the two phases. I missed out on it all originally, so that's just from a purely retrovisionist perspective.
Heresy! Surely that would be an excuse to treat us to an ultra deep dive ultra length video!
Things can change in the research and writing, but at the moment I am leaning towards covering them as separate videos.
8th before the End Times was a pretty well supported edition and plenty happened with its design worth talking about, and it feels like all that would be swamped by The End Times if they’re just in one video.
Excellent video, as I knew it would be. Those glimpses inside the pages of White Dwarf... THAT is what an issue of White Dwarf should look like, beardling. None of these fancy full-bleed graphics with more layers than a Dwarven hold. Simpler! Straightforward like stone.
Most of my WFB gaming happened during 6th ed. but I enjoyed this look at 7th. I've got that Nemesis Crown pamphlet and the WD issues to go with it. The infamous black and red books... my wife is a writer/editor of corporate communications and, oh man, these needed some serious editing. I know these books are regarded with some not insignificant horror in the community but they appear to have had zero editing by the author or anyone else in the chain before they rolled off the press. Very clunky writing.
re: Lord of the Rings. Those 3 initial box sets to go along with the movie releases were heaven. I enjoyed the hell out of those. Those early years were the pinnacle of MESBG gaming, imho. It wasn't about crafting an army list to win, it was about recreating the scenes from the movies and books. Very cinematic and all about story. I think that's the game where the rules fell away and the fun of what was unfolding on the battlefield was most successfully achieved by any tabletop miniatures game I've played over the years. As the system aged, in inevitably got tweaked with and more elaborate until it was possible to build a WAAC army list. I had zero interest in playing the game that way, but the miniatures? The spectacle? Fantastic. It's no wonder that Fantasy Battle suffered with the rise of the LotR range. Unfortunate, but not surprising.
Oooooooh been lookin' forward to this! 😊
Is there a history of White Dwarf magazine on the cards? The changes to that over the years have been fascinating.
Hurrah! Its here! ❤
7th was my intro to WH Fantasy and although I moved away towards 40k as I went through my teens it's world captivated me with it's darker and more unique fantasy lore.
Since then I have come to apprecciate it more and more, in part due to it's setting not yet being devoid of hope like 40k is, but also due to it's fun and vibrant miniatures. When it got killed off by the End Times I was devestated and honestly, hurt.
Now I own both a 6th and 7th edition rule book and need only a couple more Skaven and Empire units before I can retire from the hobby with all I need to play the occasional game and enjoy my fond times in it's grand setting.
(I mean, that is if I can hold myself back from buying more OOP minis, and after I get the close to 100 or so that I have painted!😆)