Can Speakers or Subwoofers Be TOO BIG For a Home Theater?
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- Опубліковано 20 бер 2023
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A slow subwoofer is a subwoofer whose motor and cone cannot keep up with input signal and output. There are pretty common graphs for tracking cone movement and input signal, and is why servo subwoofers exist. The servo system is to avoid that variance in tracking the input signal and actual output.
No speaker driver can perfectly track the input signal. How close or far from perfect, is where we feel "slow" and "fast" drivers
Servo subs have there own set of problems negatives! Looking through reputable reviews of subwoofers non servo subwoofers come out on top. (though not to say all servo subwoofers are bad, some are really good)
Youthman did a home tour with the 'Red' JTR speakers (lots of them). They looked way to big for each of the rooms in the home. However, since the owner could afford it, why not? Or he could buy a larger home.
Aesthetically, I feel a speaker or subwoofer can be too much for a room. That particular tour might be a good example of that. 🤣
Fast or slow is just a bad description, it's just transient response. A voice coil is an inductor, you lower its inductance it reacts faster to the input.
I have a room that is slightly less than medium size. Since I always use a subwoofer, I like bookshelf speakers for my left and right channels.
They provide a better 'fit' both in sound volume and space volume. This is a great topic for discussion.
High End bookshelf sound as good as floorstanders when you add multiple subs as a full range set up .
All about room size to me except the sub, NO LIMITS 😂
No replacement for displacement baby!!!!!😂
a slow subwooder doesnt have anything to do with how fast the woofer moves, but how long it takes to go from say 15htz to 60 htz ( how long it takes to change frequencies)
So I have a feeling that odd room dimensions are a bigger issue. For example, my RSW12 is supposed to do 22hz +-3dB. But in my room, there's hardly anything audible below 32hz for some reason. So that must be the room cancelling/modes
Having big floorstanders in a small room can absolutely destroy a coherent sound image. Tried it myself. In the living room the floorstanders sounded great, but when I tried them in the bedroom the image was simply not coherent. Bought a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer for the bedroom instead and it sounded much better.
Im running vintage pro Cerwin Vegas and wouldnt get the great BIG sound if I just home regular home speakers so yeah never too big if you can make them FIT in the room...
I remember somebody talking about slow speakers, and your rooms decay time. didn't really matter if it was a subwoofer, mids, or highs. wherever the decay time was too long speaker sounded slow. slap echo in an untreated room in my mind would be considered slow sounding speaker.
Steve Meade just put two 32-in posted subwoofers in this house. It's insane.
Yes I saw the video.
Some speakers need a bigger room to breath sound there best and you can never have to many subs .
BIG SPEAKERS are always better ;) ;) ;)
Yes too big of a speaker can sound horrible in a small room, the room is the most important part in any sound system and then build your system to the room.
I think it’s more appropriate to discuss a sub’s detail and refer to its slowness from a DSP perspective or under power coil. There are for sure slow subs from a responsiveness perspective. I think it would be appropriate for people to start testing the length of time that it takes for a signal to be sent, processed, recreated and move onto a new frequency. I don’t think the problem is so much playing the wrong frequency anymore, I think the problem is all these low grade amps.
Is used to have this issue with an old klipsch spl 15… there was only a few milliseconds between when I expected a sound to be made and when I actually heard it. It was especially noticeable in any movie with mortar fire. Swapped the sub with a rel, and even a starke sub without the same issue.
Running 15" Kicker SOLO-BARIC L7 with 2 10" inch Massive Audio DC-10 parallel/parallel @0.67 Ω load. Just some but not the best of my car audio equipment collector days. I have some that are exceptionally rare. A first gen dual 2-ohm 10" Orion HCCA. The ICONIC 1989 and 1991 Rockford Fosgate Punch 75 and Punch 150HD also grace my collection in their excellent condition.
I don’t think they can be too big, you’ll have tons of dynamic range especially if you set it up right
And headroom to boot
Transients are for sure a point of concern. I've already commented about this on another clip but I can't help myself, haha. Slow and fast are all about transients, not frequency. Slow and fast are measured in the time domain, not in frequency response. Anyone who's researched Dirac Live room correction would already be well read up on that. Time domain is just as important as frequency response and speaker positioning.
Another great example of this is electrostatic speakers and headphones. Their finicky power and positioning aside, they're generally considered as one of the best experiences you can have listening to music and that's due to their unbeatable transients. I don't have the budget nor the space for something like that but it's just something to think about.
Going back to subwoofers, I wouldn't personally buy large subwoofers for this reason. In the subwoofer realm, you get unbeatable transient speed from servo controlled subs and even faster transients from open-baffle servo-controlled subs. These subs pairs with tactile transducers allow for the best transients, best frequency response, and all at whatever volume you're comfortable with. I've heard GR-Research's open baffle subs personally and they can be driven to very uncomfortable volumes (110db+) with the right setup and room, while also being able to be whisper quiet with full control.
Genuine question, how do you quantify “whisper quiet and full control”? Is this subjective or can it be measured?
Great answer 💪🏼
@@Youthman Measured in REW (or Smaart), you would see an identical impulse response measurement at high volume to low volume as compared to the mains in your system.
Subjectively, you would hear the bass that's being directed to the subs sound as clean as a horn speaker both at low volume and high volume. This is hard to describe if you've not heard it. In everyday life, we're not used to hearing low frequency information perfectly (near-perfectly, haha. Nothing's ever perfect) keep up with the rest of the frequency spectrum due to most audio we hear being reproduced imperfectly. You normally hear bass decay much slower due to the large wavelengths and high amplitude needed to hear them at equal volume. This decay is even more problematic with a poorly made subwoofer, poor system tuning, and/or poor implementation of acoustic treatment. I'll take a brief moment to say that even though I've never been in your room, your system is made with absolutely killer equipment. Dream equipment for most people (including me).
My background with this is from live sound reinforcement in the install game. In a properly treated auditorium with a decay between 500ms and 750ms, you can hear the subs stop after the line array does. It's near impossible in a room that large with a well-tuned system to hear the subs start after the line array. We study the impulse response very closely when delaying the line array to subs (or vice versa depending on the install) to purposefully have the subs' impulse peak at the exact same time the line-array's impulse peaks. This can look like the subs actually "start" a very small fraction of a second earlier than the line-array due to the much larger drivers.
This all sounds very nit-picky, I know. But the point is that when you have complex passages of music in orchestra or in regular music, the bass transient in a system is often smeared due to either a fault in woofer design, in tuning of the system, and/or poor acoustic treatment. In poorly recorded music and poorly mixed movies, you would be hard pressed to hear these transients being smeared. In well recorded music and movies, it's clearly audible when woofers in a system have been poorly designed, the system hasn't been tuned in mind with keeping subwoofer transients intact, and/or poorly implemented acoustic reinforcement.
Yep! You're right Youthman! I have my Sub's set halfway...Not full power at all...No tile problems, however I did remove everything off the walls...Lol
The whole conversation of slow and fast subs may not be the right question. I think the better question is "Can all subs recreate the upper bass of a speaker and at what frequencies?"
Can you set the crossover to 120hz on a set of towers and can the sub or subs recreate the frequency of the speakers' woofers? I don't know the answer to that - I know that when I set my SVS 3000 Micro to 120hz, it could not replicate the sound of the speakers' bass woofers and I had to rely on my speakers to produce much higher quality bass.
Has anyone tried or heard Open Baffel Subs in home theatre example 4-8 drivers dipole
So in my small 10'x11'x8' room I have a 7.3.4 setup. the 3 subs are dual 15" drivers and the speakers are all 3 way design. So in total number of drivers by size I have 6-15", 2-12", 2-8", 6-6", 2-5 1/2", 11-4", 11-1" titanium dome. Too much? Not for me!
WOW! All that in a 10x11 room? I am deeply impressed by your determination.
Some subs are too deep and creat their own room boundary issues. Keep in mind that bass 39” or more from the wall starts to cancel itself out. It needs to be between 39” or 7’ out not to cancel in the bass.
Ryan isn't wrong IMO, sub woofers/amplifier design and materials have evolved to correct and address these short comings before time alignment existed 30 years ago for consumers.
Largest production sub I know of is 80"...and we all want one at least? Not much more can bring life to a movie when you can feel the room breathing.
SMD just put a pair of 30" subs in his home recently...haven't seen him smile like that in years.
Ryan is correct regarding motor structure and its influence on diaphragm behavior.
it's not that the speaker is too big but the room is too small.
The whole house sometimes
You win the internet for today😂
That's some good philosophy right there.
When you're right you're right 😂
Ryan: A subwoofer can be slow
Youthman: Did you just say a subwoofer can be slow?
Ryan: 3:26 just forget I said that 😂😅
🤣🤣🤣 he knows it’s controversial.
@@Youthman I installed KEF Q series 7.2.4 system for my Uncle last year. With 2 x DIY SUBs(Dayton Ultimax 18") and those are well controlled and goes way down sub without sweating. Room size 16.25ftx14.5ftx10ft(LxWxH)
I have two 32s and two double 18s believe me it’s much cleaner when the subs don’t have to work as hard.
Which model 312”?!
The bigger the speakers the bigger u gotta go screen wise. Seeing guys go full out on audio and go with smaller 2.35 screens where u gotta chop a ton of films to fit is downfall in my opinion. So much focus on the dolby atmos / dts x side but not as much video side.
Too small of a screen and you’ll collapse your front sound stage
Nothing is ever too big…well thats what my GF says anyways.
This subject has always puzzled me as well. I have a small 12x12 room. Already running dual Polk HTS 12's but have been intrigued by DIY Subs. I wonder would dual Marty Cube 18's be too much even if tuned properly. Youthman you're sending me down a rabbit hole with your content. LMAO :)
Never to big! You will gain a ton of ulf output. Lower distortion and spl headroom. You will be amazed
Instead of two large subs, how about 20 6" long throw drivers distributed around the room? Or, does size really matter?
I had two MartinLogan depth i subs which uses 3 each 8” drivers in a balanced configuration. They play very well in the 35 Hz - 200 Hz range. I replaced them with two SVS PB-3000 subs which play very well from 10 Hz - 150 Hz. The PB-3000s introduce tension from infrasonic energy encoded in the soundtracks. They completely changed the audio in my HT and is much more effective and enjoyable than the previous version.
There is no replacement t for displacement. Physics will limit how deep and loud a 6.5” driver can perform. I’ll take a single 18” JTR over 20 6” drivers any day of the week.
@@Youthman Of course you know I'm just being silly. Hahaha
I hope you and the team are having a blast in the snow. All the best.
@@bigdogaxis I also enjoy my SVS sub, PB 1000 Pro. Surely, You caught my comment above as total silliness. SVS gear and their customer service is "Top Shelf". Take care and please have a great day, Kevin
@@welderfixer Not so much silliness given the direction the industry and technology is moving. I can see a day when we incorporate driver size for specific FR jobs to smooth response and eliminate nulls as well as cancel standing waves. If I had the room, I would utilize my smaller subs to cover where the SVS dares not to go. For now, they are bringing the bass in my 2.2 channel music setup with Klipsch towers…so sweet.
No, bigger is always better, just like tv size
Gerard Stroh***
Michael Stevens***
Get The Ascendo 80 inch Subwoofer That Goes Down to 1Hz***
It Cost More than A House!!!!
I Have 6 Big DIY Wall size Sub Woofers that Go Down to 7Hz***
That's My Take on Sub Woofer Speakers!!!
Bye!!!
Have to use a second house for the box lol.
Michael, you are my hero now.... thx for doing this 😇
I wholeheartedly agree with you guys so much
We can sum up: GO BIG OR GO HOME 🤩
Lol..I think your panel members disagree with you Ryan!!
That’s perfectly ok. It’s unfortunate when people in this hobby get defensive when you believe something different than they do.
@Youthman it was a great exchange of ideas,look forward to next round!
Some guys in the comment feel the need to be right. I believe it’s more about the conversation than it is about who is right or wrong.
So who been watching SMD 33" SUBWOOFERS LOL #STEVEmeade916
You really need to stop this 10hz is slow or not.
Subs play at least 80hz.
Even Stereo Integrity call you out last time and look at the pdf at there homepage.
Jonathan think every sub behaves the same, “only need to be a good driver” it’s sad and dragging the channel down to hell.
Subs do more then 10hz tone 🤦🏼♂️
Ryan is 100% right here
You are welcome to your opinion. Audioholics, StereoNET and Data Bass would disagree with you and Stereo Integrity.
www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/10-nonsense-myths
www.stereonet.com/au/features/the-fast-bass-experiment-are-heavy-woofers-slow
data-bass.com/#/articles/5cbf5e7357f7140004d6d0ec?_k=zadyxh
@@Youthman Here Gene talking with Arendal live and Gene describing sub’s different sound persona.
Is he contradicting what he says on his website?
@@Youthman
Even the Stereonet article shows how differently the frequency response changes when you add mass.
If you go with your opinion a speaker or sub between 30-80hz should all sound the same and be the easiest thing in the world to build
@@Youthman
Yes a little bit.
But was little bit harsh the way i sad it on the OG post.
Sorry about that.
Even Ascendo talked about “fast” and “slow” subs in there line and why they have infra subwoofers that doesn’t have the right design for like 80hz.
and wise versa.
Was in Shane’s channel a year ago.
I'm big on the use of passive radiators, how do you guys feel about them?
BTW, a slow subwoofer would equal playing the wrong frequency. Magnets aren’t tiny anymore. This is a problem from like 30years ago and people still repeat it
This 👆👆👆
So every sub plays the same 30-80hz? It’s about spl then nothing else?
Wouldn't a poorly designed ported subwoofer with audible group delay be considered slow? Also a subwoofer with too much room gain that emphasizes lower frequencies than the original source that has not been corrected by dsp would sound slow for music.
@@LeeLee-fi7mx you answered your own question... Room gain. Your room is destroying the sound of the subwoofer because of cancelation. a 12hz wave is like 60ft. so in a 20ft room, that sound wave has hit the front wall, ans the back wall, and the front wall again before the entire 12hz wave has left the speaker.
Answer is a resounding YES! Sub CAN BE too big for room, clearly.! A 10 foot x 13 foot x 8 foot ceiling height room is too small for a 12" powered woofer that plays down to 28hz!!! Room dimmensions can't support the wave lengths that low, and it won't absorb enough bass to not sound boomy, one note sounding, with exta reverb rime. You're better off with a single 8" woofer or smaller (yes dual 5" woofer sub or single 7" in bandpass, etc) in a sealed enclosure and smaller monitors, crossed at 80hz or higher!