Ashley Bruno And you don’t get to say “you don’t earn the right to marginalize a different group of people because you preserved through hardships“ if you haven’t been through the same thing.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 Sorry, that's not how that works. No one, under any condition or circumstance, is granted the right to treat anyone as lesser. Bad behavior doesn't get absolved just because of life experiences.
Ashley Bruno ok so invite me to your home and I’ll offend you by telling you how to raise your children and what to say in your own home. Let’s see what you say then.
Black trans women were many of the brave individuals who paved the road for queer rights. They don’t deserve to be marginalized and their experiences don’t deserve to be trivialized. As a white baby gay I recognize my privilege and always strive to respect the hardships of those less fortunate than I.
I was going to say the same thing! Learn our history and respect it! Our lgbtq+ brothers and sisters didn’t fight only for gay rights. They fought to be respected, heard, loved and for equality! Let’s not do to others what we don’t want done to us! Learn from our past and let’s better our future, together! As one! This scene hits me to the core every time I see it. Our community is divided and has gotten worst over time. The more love and acceptance we receive the more we become divided. Let’s get it together!
The myth Miguel C may be referring to is that Marsha P threw "the first brick" at Stonewall in 1969. No one can say for sure there even WAS a brick, but if there was, Marsha P didn't throw it. By her own admission, Johnson did not arrive at Stonewall until well after the resistance had begun.
Omg this happens all the time in nyc and the hamptons. Especially if you’re a POC boy/girl among the white sugar daddies. I had two and in both circles they behaved the same way.
Ben was completely right here. Not only was he, a black man, basically told he doesn't know what it felt like to struggle in a society that doesn't care if you live or die, but he was told that these older - white - gay men basically earned the right to be offensive because of their struggle, which struggling doesn't entitle anyone to devalue, degrade, or belittle anyone. If anything, they should be more compassionate because they know how it feels, but it does depend on the person and how they handle their own trauma, too. It can turn you bitter if you let it, which a lot of people, including these men, do and have done.
In "Salt of the Earth", an old 1954 classic (Paul Jericho, et al) there's very similar conflict among groups of people, and equally as beautifully made. In the film, their only resolution was through equal vote among everyone, leaving no voice unheard. Dr. King fought with his life for the vote. To make blood boil even more, look up the "Jencks Act", named for one of the characters in the film, and our close friend of many decades. RIP Clint.
The fact they said this stuff to a black man, I wish he brought it up at the table and not in private. And I quote this white, affluent, gay middle aged man said to a 28 yr old black gay man. "We fought claw, tooth, and nail...in a society that didn't give two shits if we lived or died" Baby, I had to sit up real quick
Just because you get to thrive and earned the rights you have fought for decades ago doesnt mean you have to dismiss mindfulness towards those who are still fighting for their rights at the moment. That is the point Millenials are making, we ain't free until ALL of us are free. So yes check your white privilege at the door and fight for racial and trans equity and equality, point blank period.
I understand where the older gay guy is coming from but I am with Ben on this. Just because we fought for rights doesn't mean that we go around using offensive words for other minorities. And I am not a 25 year old man. I was young during AIDS crisis.
The beautiful thing about this scene is both sides have a point. I did not grow up during the AIDS epidemic, so I cannot empathize with what the LGBT+ community went through. I've only heard/read how terrible it was, how many people died. BUT these characters DO still have rich white male privilege. They are still being racist, they are still being transphobic.
I can empathize with the struggles and progress that was made; however, these are two unrelated points. That will never justify being transphobic or racist. It could be an issue of ignorance, but that doesn't make it acceptable either.
They were so awful to Ben in this scene. I think it was a much-needed scene -- it's easy to forget, even within the queer community, that there are levels of power and privilege, very different experiences. We have to regularly reflect on our behavior, and try to do better in the areas where we're lacking, so that we don't become like the men in this dinner party who treated Ben so unkindly.
Never watched this show before but i will start. This scene was great at highlighting black/brown men's reality that no matter your label a white man is always valued more in this society. It is particularly sad for white gay to ignore the struggles of minorities when they have faced discrimination themselves, but unlike sexual orientation race cannot be hidden. To ignore your privilege as a white person is to essentially say that you are ok with the injustices people of color face.
No you completely missed your privilege and the racism in the conversation. This elitist ass talks about brown people without respect refering to them in generic names and the this other man dismissed the black man's right to voice his opinion (ironically one of the freedoms he thinks he fought for) This man talks about suffering to someone whose people are still dying in the hands of racists cops. He lives in a bubble where only his suffering matters yes because he is white.
Luz Cannon I’m a person of color and LGBT. Please remind me again of my “privilege”. Very dumb things to say. Replace the actor with a white person. The words do not change. That’s how you know it isn’t racist. This speaks of a generational divide, a split in the community over terms deemed appropriate to use in one decade and not another. That’s what this is about. So you’re absolutely wrong...and you’re also a racist for assuming my race based on my words and then dismissing them.
@@user-ke4kz3in9j like the person before stated you need to open your eyes. The lack of acknowledgement of current struggle (yes due to his race) by the older white man reflects him ignorance while he patronizes about past struggle to him. If it was a white man the scene would not hold this meaning because the insensitive elitist ass wouldnt be a hyprocite in a sense preaching to the choir about 'not being wanted' in this society. So while the elitist ass wasnt being overly racist towarsd the guy he did show all his privilege and ignorance by his lack of empathy for him. Also the conversation regarding latinos was definitely racist and its stupid to not accept that. Anyway if your defemse to people calling out racism is to assume they are is says alot about your internal prejudice and why you refuse to accept people calling it out. I really want to believe you are lying about being black to gain leverage on this conversation because it is sad to think that some of us are so blind and brainwashed to recognize the notions of privilege and race in this country.
Luz Cannon 1) I’m a brown person and fuck you very much for thinking I’d lie about that...how incredibly racist of you, to assume that the reason I would have this opinion is because I’m a white person lying (which I’m not). 2) the conversation was over the use of “trannies”. It was anything to do with the race of the young man. It expanded to an overall commentary on young people being obsessed with labels (which we are). It had zero to do with race. You’re inserting race into a discussion on verbiage relating to transsexuals and millennials. Insert a white person into the seat of the black guy (or Asian, Latino, etc) and this argument would be the exact same. It was about millennials and trannies, nothing else. No empathy is needed for the language police. And one more fuck you very much for being a hypocritical racist.
I nearly threw up and wanted spit on my TV screen. So, the brown boy sitting across from this piece of shit, does not know what it feels like to be unwanted and hunted by society. MAYBE HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN HIS PHONE OUT AND SHOW HIM THE PICTURE OF PEOPLE STANDING AROND AND TAKING PICTURE OF THEMSELVES WITH PEOPLE BEING BURNED ON THE STREETS ALIVE, OR SWINGING FROM TREES LIKE ITS THE GREATEST SHOW OF THEM MODERN TIMES.
Siding with the older gays!! Tired of having what I openly say being policed and being threatened with being ‘canceled’ just because of the delicate, dainty, tissue-thin sensibilities.
Generation X and the tail-end Baby Boom fought in the trenches, and we lost so many. But the Millennial also has a point. We did fight for personhood and for dignity. I'm reminded of what Kipling wrote: "Mock not the boar in his lair."
It was an interesting conversation but the delivery was disappointing. How can younger generations appreciate those sacrifices if your screaming at them? Eventually they won't care because the tantrums are exhausting.
Leftatalbuquerque fuck Kipling. Go through what we went through just to stay alive and live with panic and anxiety because you can’t stand to see another friend die right in front of you. Yes you e read books and saw movies over the AIDS crisis but you weren’t there and to tell someone that’s been through that that they cannot say what they want in their own home.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 marginalized minorities groups today have no business paying for the suffering you went through in the past. suffering doesn't grant you the right to bring suffering on other innocent people. You've earned your anger, but not at those people. Direct it were it's deserved, not indiscriminately, and certainly not at people who're still suffering today. They deserve kindness just like you did.
Andy Smith you do t seem to understand. I would never go into someone’s home and police what they say. You just keep your mouth shut, know where you stand and leave with an opinion. A mans house is a mans house and you don’t have to like it but you damn sure are not allowed to run your mouth and try and say what he can say. A) it’s not going to work and b) it’s not going to work.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 not allowed? Relax please. You can ask a person to leave your house if you don't like how they conduct themselves. However, this isn't his house. These were two invited guests fighting, and it was the other guy who became rude and offensive first. The host could have asked either of them to shut up or leave if he wished, but he didn't. There are cordial ways to disagree, and the older guy decided he was going to throw a tantrum instead by choice because he's an entitled huffy brat. I understand entirely.
I'm a 30-year-old white gay guy who's never faced discrimination or homophobia at the levels these old people have , I know that if it weren't for them fighting and giving their lives for our rights, my generation and the newest one wouldn't have had the freedom we have today. But that does not give them or anyone the right to do what was done to them. That is not why they fought for for so many decades. And yes, he is a privileged man who is unaware of the extent of said privilege.
But we’re not speaking of children. We’re talking about grown ass folks inviting people into their home to have a dinner party and to enjoy themselves. This wasn’t a debate over politically correct terminology. If you don’t like what’s going on then leave. I mean can you imagine someone schooling you on how to act or behave because if the lingo in place these days? Oh no “ Mr. You’ve worked your ass off for everything you have and invited me into your home “. You can’t say this because I’m NOT one of them but I’m going to tell you what to say and how to say it Mr. White privileged man just because you’re white. No ma’am that discredited his entire life’s hard work while dealing with losing just about everything he had. There was no race or children. I mean he didn’t even have to comment on the people saying tranny. He could have just said nothing and kept his opinion to himself instead just being grateful for being invited. He want invited to change peoples minds and nobody asked him.
Sihin Tsegay consequence?? By who’s standards should I/he be made to endure some consequences? He’s got the same attitude most people back then have that are still alive. Fuck. Everyone. I’ll say what I want and when I want. And don’t police what I say. The 28 year old knew he shouldn’t be playing mother. Nobody said anything to him about him.
Sihin Tsegay OMG thank you for articulating all my thoughts. This person before you obviously didn’t understand (or chose not to understand) a word you said. Lol. But thank you thank you thank you! I’ve been thinking about this scene for a while now and you worded everything with proper reason.
@@sihintsegay3868 Thank you so much for your words. English is not my first language so sometimes I struggle to communicate my thoughts properly or to find the words to make my point across. Especially in this type of discussions.
I'm a 74-year-old gay man. I've seen this scene a few times and I'm in Ben's corner. And please, cut with the crap. Obviously, the elders didn't learn anything from what they clawed "tooth and nail" for. Four decades ago, I was clawing, too. I wrote many articles as a gay journalist about job discrimination. For three years, I edited two tabloid pages of obituaries each week...without ads. I didn't do that clawing so that these guys could be as bigoted as the bigots they fought against when they were young. As Aretha once put it: R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
@@BionicBoom88 No shame here with my gay identity. Authoritarian language & demands were why I was out in the streets protesting during the HIV epidemic in the 80's. Call it green, yellow or red . You can slice it or eat it raw You can dress it up any way you want. But an *Apple* is never going to be an *Orange* ... *&* A Man is never going to be a Women & visa / versa ... Sorry 😔
@@BionicBoom88 What do you disagree with? Do you think that all older gay men are entitled to unrequited respect even though I knew some who used the ''N'' word and ''used'' younger gay men like toys. We made great sacrifices and showed great courage ,but as Joe E. Brown once said, ''Nobody's perfect.''
Because you’re probably too young to understand where the older gay guy was coming from. He was 100% correct. Even if he was a little bit of an asshole about it. Nobody’s perfect.
@@daphnemaxwell149 i get where he was coming from but as a gay trans POC Cis people shouldn’t get to decide whether they can say the T slur or not. I can appreciate what they did for our community but still criticize them for their obvious transphobia. If someone tells you that what you are doing is offensive you should take a step back, reflect and most importantly LISTEN. At that point it doesn’t matter whether you are a minority or not because you have just turned into an oppressor.
@@paulirosa2075 - It’s funny to me because, I feel that SOME trans activists are becoming oppressors, by trying to muzzle other people in the community by calling them “ transphobic” simply because they disagree about certain issues.
@@paulirosa2075 - This is fictional, please get a grip. Besides, what people do in the privacy of their own home, is their business. This gave you a glimpse into a private conversation (factitious) that was not meant for anyone else to hear except the people around that table. Stop trying to control peoples thoughts and language. You will never win that way. It’s also not your place to tell people how they should feel about anything. How people treat you and the community in public in terms of laws and rights, and the people who you deal with directly in your personal life is the only thing you have a right to be concerned and vocal about. Stop it with the controlling behavior already. (That’s not necessarily aimed at you personally, just certain activist members of the Community) Gay men of that era have been through much much worse than you can ever imagine. They had to hear slurs used against them on the daily. I don’t remember much complaining about it either. I know, I was there. Please give it a rest.
show was amazing! This scene was the highlight for me (gay Get Out lol). Ben was 100% right on all accounts though (love him). Just because you've gone through loss, turmoil, and anguish, doesn't give you the right to disrespect and devalue anyone. As a millennial myself (I'm 28), I get tired of hearing the older generation complain about us as if we don't understand what's going on...everyone wants to talk shit about millennials until they need help with their computer smh
Ajaymj88 the fact that’s what you got out of the scene means you don’t understand and didn’t listen. The point is the entitlement we millennials have to push for more visibility, push and enjoy intersectionality it came on the backs of those before us and while that doesn’t justify anyone being transphobic it also doesn’t mean we’re entitled to police others especially from a position of entitlement or arrogance. Millennials have got to understand there is a lot they don’t know about those who lived before them and not take things for granted.
Surely it's about intent... and the situation. If you tell me that in a personal situation between close friends (as in this clip) you never say anything inappropriate or use words that could offend someone if said in a different context, then you are either a saint or a liar. Doesn't make it 'right' but the holier than thou attitude of many millennial's creates more division and society reacts against it! Intent is so important. Everyone is offended on behalf of someone that might get offended should they hear/see something that could be offensive.
chadam813 here we go again with old heads tryna tell millennials what we need to think...I don’t care what anyone has been through. It doesn’t justify disrespecting others. Especially within our own community.
Howard Trigg doesn’t take a saint to show respect to others in your speech. This clip was more than close friends as it was their first time meeting Ben. Idk why people always want to find a reason to treat others like shit. It’s easier to be kind in your actions and speech than to spread hate.
@@2gatsuuga Agreed. Whilst it doesn't excuse their language, there are no trans people there, they didn't intend to insult anyone. But Ben was offended in case someone else was offended who isn't even there. They are both right in my opinion.
Really though? "white gays"? Is that really what you think? Of course we're "going to like" it. These guys aren't representative of all white gay people, or even most. Do you really think most white gay men agree with these people? You're supposed to think they're trash, and anyone who doesn't probably isn't going to be watching this show in the first place? Source: am a white gay.
This was very hard to watch. Well done Ben. So sad Michael didn't stick up for you, especially if he'd thought about the dinner party in the first series where he was in the place of Ben. This was such a great series. Loved it, but so wish that the story could continue (and I'm still feeling the lack of Mona in these later books and this series). ❤
This scene really stirred me up. Like... IS there a right or wrong? Is it all subjective? How do (and should) we have a conversation about this? I personally try to respect others' opinions and try not to disrespect them but...this? thoughts...thoughts
Well listening is key. For me though this struck a chord because of something that i have come to know. In this society a white man(no matter his label or class), his voice, his struggle, his life is always valued more than a man of color. The man giving the speech disgusts me as he hypocritically defends his slurs because he feels he earned the right to be offensive. Meanwhile he tells a black man that he doesn't know what it feels to not be wanted in society while people of color's oppresion continues. White apathy and lack of awareness of privilege is what keeps this struggle for equality going.
@Luz Cannon this was not about race. This was about gay men from two different generations. Gay men from all races , rich, poor, middle class, famous, talented, from all countries gay men were to blame. Simply based on your sexuality ( homosexual) you were blamed and left to die, thrown out of their apartments, literally crawled under bridges and died, committing suicide, just wanting to simply survive another day with no help. All we had back then was each other. .fuc/< race. That was the last thing we were worried about. It was about our communities helping each other.
I don't know... There are so many different tales to tell, so many different spins on the subject... It's funny, I am 45...But like when I was 5 or 6, and I knew the faerie tales of Snow White and Sleeping Beauty and I applied them to me, and I just thought some nice guy would come along one day and take me by the hand and lead me out of Small Town, Wisconsin... into a new community where I would be loved and accepted. And honestly, that is what the "rainbow" community says it offers: love and acceptance... But my reality... my reality, was just one superficial hierarchy traded for another. It's never about what is on the inside of you - it's what you wear, how you dance, your age, your masculinity, how much make, what wine you drink - I swear almost every gay group scene I ever see is a chorus of exotic locale namedropping and some gay guy creaming to another about the Beaujolais. In this scene, I can totally see where the senior member is coming. I as a person, would have empathy towards what he experienced. Yet, I wonder if his own experience-based defense is solely based on the AIDS crisis...or if there is jealousy involved? Jealousy towards the young man, his good looks; his idealism. Let alone the mature man the younger man is dating; their contemporary who may be happy. There always seems to be an "evil queen" dynamic that resents the new "fairest in the land". It almost seems the man who fought hard so others could live, is a hypocrite... That as several here who have posted, his becoming cruel in making his point... screaming his morays at another, it's just going to backfire in rejecting the lesson. Your lesson you hold close as does the young man - who was speaking up in defense, something that as an older generation, if you set in motion you would be proud of. But this isn't all on the Boomers or the Gen X'ers. It works on both sides of the generational spectrum. Millennials have no right to cancel the generations they disagree with, or be just as belligerent. I am just glad this scene is giving everyone pause and for most, allowing the ability to discuss.
I agree with both sides, but using derogatory labels isn't on. I don't like labels myself but no one should throw insulting l labels around, and if it's done in ignorance, than get educated. This isn't about political correctness, it's about human decency.
I first thought comments were praising Ben's attitude towards transphobia. I was happy. However I now see that they don't! Trans people have the highest ratios of suicide, being the victim of a murder among lgbt+. No past trauma or injustice can be an excuse for using transphobic language. And as I see everyone here is about "you don't get to talk about it you didn't go through 60s" I feel obliged to state that I am a non-cisstraight person born and raised in a Muslim country where I've been physically and verbaly assaulted on a regular basis, lost more than a few trans friends and acquaintances through suicide and transphobic murders, have been exposed to merciless police brutality in many of our lgbti+ protests and pride walk attempts (actually it is currently strictly illegal in my city to gather for a purpose related to lgbti+ issues). And one final thing: if I were Michael's partner, we'd be done at this table, I can't believe their relationship prevailed this.
The more i watch this, the more i side with the elder gays. As a middle age gay man, that woke kid had no right to say that. What they are fighting for is emotions, acceptance. We fought for gay rights, true equality in the eyes of the law, legal partnership. Not this woke entitled bs. And yes, if you didn’t live through the aids epidemic, pre gay rights, you really should ask first before thinking you can correct the people who made your world safer.
@@FREELEOONE I want to hear the one where they chased him down the street for being black, and caught him and beat the shit out of him for being in the wrong neighborhood by mistake.
@@dlee9924 That happened to me in Upper Darby by mob of racist white people, and in South Philly by black people teenagers. I was going to a party with four friends in South Philly and a group a black guys decided they were going to rob us. Out of the four, I'm the only one still alive. AIDS claimed the others. Some of our our life experiences overlap. This storyline focuses on how recalcitrant those who survived the AIDS epidemic can be. I don't agree with them on point, but I understand some of it. I was there. If you weren't there it's difficult to understand.
Mostly you have missed the point. He is sat there not having any life experience. They then tell of their life experience. Which is death. Hardship. Pain Whole note books of people's names crossed out due to hiv the aids. How are you all not understand this scene. How dare you. Any freedom you have....wow.... You have no idea
Honestly, I understand where Ben is coming from, what he may not realise is that, every community, race and gender do this, they all talk about the others when they're with their own, sad but true ! 😔
I think he does realise it and decided to say something about it. I know this from my own experience but I don't tolerate it. I know I can't go to peoples houses and listen in if they are being discriminatory but people around me know not to talk like that around me. It's baby steps. You can be the change in your immediate environment.
Respect on both sides must be earned, but sadly, the classism and internal homo/transphobia is here to stay. Both the old gay white men and Ben have plenty of room to improve.
It’s a little ridiculous that all Ben wanted to talk about was his race. Like he knew he himself was talking from privilege as well. So he goes to playing the race card to “earn some points”. Which is hypocritical
This scene felt to real to the point that I wonder how different those men were when they cut the scene. How many of us non-GWM have dealt with shit like this. I know I have.
You mean having white people tell you that 'you don't know what its like' referring to their personal struggle like if I dont have my own personal struggles as well as (unlike them) societal and systemic imposed ones?
I've seen this come back to race a few times. While the scene does have a a racial component, for me, it's more about the AIDS epidemic and the lasting effects it has had on all of us who lost far too many friends and loved ones before they even got their first gray hair. The hospitals, the smells, the funerals, the fear and rejection by family. I say this as a black sgl man who was 17 when GRID was the thing terrifying the community. The sentiment the characters shared transcend race and speak to a place and time, that still way heavily on the hearts of those of us who survived.
@@FREELEOONE So, closeted gay black men back then did not feel the same? This was about multiple components, and the disgust of the tone from the old crap talking about what was paved, and what he did or they did does not compare to hardships fought by blacks in the country. So, if you were gay back then did what did you do to change be black and gay. That must have been hard.
@@FREELEOONE it's not just the race thing. It's intersectionality and we know that different communities faced varied impacts based on their privilege and proximity and the activists who were the most pivotal to the fight against stigma and lack of medication who are with us today are the most aware of that. The ones who understand that silence = death do not silence others.
This needs a do over. I am not in favor of the Michael/ Ben ending at all. Enough with these dumb ass ending already. Yes, life sucks and can be shitty. Can't art be uplifting with happy endings for once...
@@janeryan2709 If art imitated life, we would have alien space ships over cities and blowing us away with their mega weapons. There does always have a sad ending.
essentially what the writers are convaying and the actors are portraying very well by the way is that both sides are hurt and have and had theyre cross to bare also both doesnt know the reality of the other and the inability to have the uncomfortable conversation (wrong labels and hall you cant have an honest conversation in a safe space) has greated a divide that gets biggers with the lost art of conversation
Sure, but I think it really hit a nerve with me becauses it states the bigger issue that in this country no matter what, a white man is always valued more. His voice and his life.
I super appreciate this dynamic being portrayed on TV - I have seen this play out in real life with older white gay men who do not understand what it means to be intersectional and truly inclusive - they think "tongue and cheek" comments towards trans people or people of color that deny their humanity is okay because they are gay or belong to one marginalized community and seems too oblivious to the fact that they are perpetuating toxic masculinity and white supremacy...
A Ng I think you missed the important issues brought up here it wasn’t one sided. Both parties need to listen to each other the white guy isn’t wrong when it comes to talking about past issues
@@chadam813 I think you missed the racism and elitist attitude of the older men. All the men where gay so they could all relate to perhaps being marginalized but being a black man can be a death sentence in this country. So for the last men to assume the black man didn't know what it felt like to not be wanted in society it showed all his lack of awareness and empathy. It highlighted the fact that in this society a white man, his struggle, his life is always valued more than a man of color.
Luz Cannon I didn’t miss the tone of conversation it was reflecting multiple sides and issues, much like real life it can’t be over simplified into base camps of right and wrong. Being gay in this country can also be a death sentence for most of America’s history it has been. The older generation lived through that, it’s not hard to see how they find it insulting or a slap in the face to have someone younger language police them or try to reprimand them as if they don’t understand oppression. This is a conversation where both sides need to listen and it takes a tongue n cheek jab at how language policing and social justice isn’t just clean and dry and can often be disrespectful or dismissive of others even thought its intent is to garner equality and visibility.
Luz Cannon the point of this scene is to take on the generational divide. The experiences shared by those men and abuses suffered happened to them because they were gay and them being white didn’t save them from going through said abuses and experiences. This scenes tackles issues of older generation being resistant to change or moral curtailing while also tackling a younger generation who often takes others experiences or tribulations for granted and dismissed them. The conversation is nuanced and complex and neither side is 100% right and that’s okay because it’s not about being right it’s about having the difficult conversations and hopefully hearing one another.
I just found this masterpiece of a scene. and read a lot of comments. and I see a lot of people just missing the point. as someone who has been supporting lgbtq rights for a long time, imho, I don't think the point of this scene was about whether ben was right or wrong. I think a lot of problems whit how the younger generation go about today's issues is about how they approach them. it's confrontational. instead of trying to win others to their cause through acceptance, to normalize their life, they confront people harshly. calling them privileged, racist, sexist, transphobic. at this scene, there are a couple of older people, raised in a different time and culture, having fun. having a good time. saying whatever, like when men talk big about their wives when they are not around. then comes in a new young man, and decides to educate them. call them racist and privileged, just because they are white, when no one was talking about race. at this point he just became a party pooper. and this made the others, defensive at first and then aggressive. he just lost a number of possible allies, and possibly turned them to opposition. think of it this way. when it came to the LGB rights, we had shows like will & grace and modern family, which came around and said " hey look. gay people are just like us. we can laugh with AND at them like everyone else. no one's gonna call you a homophone just because you decided to include gay people and treat them as a normal person and told a joke about them." and won a lot of people to their cause. even if the jokes are bad. you specially should want the bad jokes. because other people also know they are bad. and slowly and naturally, those bad jokes will become unacceptable by everyone including the people that said them in the first place. today, if you even dare to ask a question, let alone joke, about the TQ community in order to get informed about them, you will get assassinated on twitter, called a transphobic and probably loose your job. with each instant like the one in this scene, you have just created a stronger opposition. one which justifiably is afraid of your community, unwilling to accept or understand you since you didn't accept or understand them. and you gave ammunition to those whom are actively against you and win over more people to their side.
Easter Egg: Stephen Spinella, who references Angels in America actually played Prior Walter during its original Broadway run and won a Tony Award for his performance.
Yes, during the dinner party on the original series, John was turned off and offended by the "Gucci Queens" use of the word "twink" and he left the dinner and went straight to the bathhouse. Whew!
Just--wow! Armistead hits it on the head again. And it's amazing and sad how many people posting here don't get it. I was there. I worked and wept, and we're all here now, but if I say the wrong thing I want to be called on it, and so should anyone who knows what it was like or what it is like now to be scolded for telling the truth.
I respect the battles the last two generations have fought for however baby boomers are the whiniest generation. They are bitter and can’t accept the world has changed, a change they fought for. We Millennials have it easy both cultural and technological but there are plenty of civil right battles out there to fights women’s right, LGBT rights, immigrant rights. How about instead crying and complaining about my generation you join us and accept that it isn’t 1989 anymore.
Misael Villeda if you go and insult them right after you say you respect them then you’re a liar you’re also a hypocrite for talking about them as a whole and not as individuals.
I'm a straight, cisgender, twenty-seven-year-old girl and I sympathize a lot with the young guy at the party. Even in my own generation, I've seen people operate in this mentality that if someone from a certain group is not around you can use whatever slur you want. I get feeling uncomfortable and some people wouldn't, but no matter how uncomfortable you are, you can at least try to be loving. You can try to use the right words and consider that people are people, despite differences, as long as they don't harm children, animals, etc. (just to make that one clear). I'm white, but even when I'm around other women, and I should feel a sense of community, I'm not always safe. Some women will hurt you just as bad as a man, bring you around someone who will hurt you and they will have known it, and some women will never defend you. For the younger guy, he sees that other people of color would be basically tricked into fulfilling someone's sexual fantasy. We all have fantasies, but the other person is still a person. It, honestly, makes me wonder about how my own feelings and fantasies could hurt someone.
The guy who's going in on Jake is always plays the same character; he was in the film version of Love Valour Compassion in the 90's, where he was WAY worst of a guy.
This was by far the best scene in this series, imo. No offense, but I found all the scenes with the younger generation tedious and rather twee. And the tendency of the TOTC to dwell on melodramatic plot twists got old really fast in all the earlier series. I wish they would have featured this cast of out gay actors from the 80s and 90s more regularly in the story line. Or maybe a spin off is in order. There's a great subject here that needs to be explored more--the ravages of AIDS on the older generation of gay men so often invisible in gay culture and the culture at large living in a world that has already forgotten them and moved on. It's so great to see Stephen Spinella, Bryan Batt, Dan Butler, and Malcolm Gets acting together. These guys need to take their show on the road.
voltei pra assistir pq sempre falo dessa cena. Amo quando serve a torta de climão. Daí de repente vc tá do lado da Novinha, de repente do lado da conna. A melhor cena pra conflito de gerações
This was so upsetting to me as a black person that I no longer want to finish watching this show. I'm so hot right now and I'm sick of people trying to elevate their horrific experiences to that which black have and still experience in this world. I'm so over this stupid s***.
The result of this scene only made both sides more entrenched in their own self righteousness. there was a version, with a less antagonistic old gay where both sides could perhaps see some of the others view... Ben dismissed a trauma which lasted 15 years of these men's lives while old gay dismissed the entrenched racism that anyone with eyes should be able to see encompasses the entirety of our nation's history... Sad
It's a good scene. Especially around 4:08 the white guy taking the man to school. As a young woman instead of going out & enjoying drinks, vacations with my friends. My friends all were getting sick, going to the hospital, then dying. Went to funeral after funeral. It was a horrible time for me. No can understand that time unless you lived it.
The best scene in the show and… it gets totally ruined by the end. It was such a powerful moment just to be thrown in the trash. This is why I have such respect for older gays.
Only "queers" get to tell us what language to use donchu know? The rest of us homosexuals don't have the right to be offended or self identify on our own behalf any longer. We are to shut up and be told what do.
You don't earn the right to marginalize a different group of people because you persevered through hardships.
Agreed
Ashley Bruno I guess he did.
Ashley Bruno And you don’t get to say “you don’t earn the right to marginalize a different group of people because you preserved through hardships“ if you haven’t been through the same thing.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 Sorry, that's not how that works. No one, under any condition or circumstance, is granted the right to treat anyone as lesser. Bad behavior doesn't get absolved just because of life experiences.
Ashley Bruno ok so invite me to your home and I’ll offend you by telling you how to raise your children and what to say in your own home. Let’s see what you say then.
Black trans women were many of the brave individuals who paved the road for queer rights. They don’t deserve to be marginalized and their experiences don’t deserve to be trivialized. As a white baby gay I recognize my privilege and always strive to respect the hardships of those less fortunate than I.
quit perpetuating that myth
Michael JC what myth?
I was going to say the same thing! Learn our history and respect it! Our lgbtq+ brothers and sisters didn’t fight only for gay rights. They fought to be respected, heard, loved and for equality! Let’s not do to others what we don’t want done to us! Learn from our past and let’s better our future, together! As one! This scene hits me to the core every time I see it. Our community is divided and has gotten worst over time. The more love and acceptance we receive the more we become divided. Let’s get it together!
Marsha Johnson was not a "trans woman". She was a drag queen. In 1969 "trans" wasn't a thing.
The myth Miguel C may be referring to is that Marsha P threw "the first brick" at Stonewall in 1969. No one can say for sure there even WAS a brick, but if there was, Marsha P didn't throw it. By her own admission, Johnson did not arrive at Stonewall until well after the resistance had begun.
“ inviting me to the gay version of Get Out” lol 😂😂😂
Gay version of get out 😅.
What a very upsetting scene. Tension was real
Omg this happens all the time in nyc and the hamptons. Especially if you’re a POC boy/girl among the white sugar daddies. I had two and in both circles they behaved the same way.
One of the best scenes in the show.
It's almost like a new version of what Michael Tolliver went through at the dinner Jon took him to in the first "Tales..." Fascinating!!
I know this is a year old but YES that's exactly what I thought. Maybe that's why Michael didn't say anything.
+1000
Is there a video?
Truly one of the greatest written, directed and acted television scenes of all time. It is brilliant on so many levels.
Very well written
Ben was completely right here. Not only was he, a black man, basically told he doesn't know what it felt like to struggle in a society that doesn't care if you live or die, but he was told that these older - white - gay men basically earned the right to be offensive because of their struggle, which struggling doesn't entitle anyone to devalue, degrade, or belittle anyone. If anything, they should be more compassionate because they know how it feels, but it does depend on the person and how they handle their own trauma, too. It can turn you bitter if you let it, which a lot of people, including these men, do and have done.
In "Salt of the Earth", an old 1954 classic (Paul Jericho, et al) there's very similar conflict among groups of people, and equally as beautifully made. In the film, their only resolution was through equal vote among everyone, leaving no voice unheard. Dr. King fought with his life for the vote. To make blood boil even more, look up the "Jencks Act", named for one of the characters in the film, and our close friend of many decades. RIP Clint.
They clearly grew up to be bitter old queens, probably because no one wanted their asses.
4:02 that guy sitting there with that smug proud smile was unnerving as hell.
The fact they said this stuff to a black man, I wish he brought it up at the table and not in private. And I quote this white, affluent, gay middle aged man said to a 28 yr old black gay man. "We fought claw, tooth, and nail...in a society that didn't give two shits if we lived or died" Baby, I had to sit up real quick
Just because you get to thrive and earned the rights you have fought for decades ago doesnt mean you have to dismiss mindfulness towards those who are still fighting for their rights at the moment. That is the point Millenials are making, we ain't free until ALL of us are free. So yes check your white privilege at the door and fight for racial and trans equity and equality, point blank period.
I understand where the older gay guy is coming from but I am with Ben on this. Just because we fought for rights doesn't mean that we go around using offensive words for other minorities. And I am not a 25 year old man. I was young during AIDS crisis.
The beautiful thing about this scene is both sides have a point. I did not grow up during the AIDS epidemic, so I cannot empathize with what the LGBT+ community went through. I've only heard/read how terrible it was, how many people died. BUT these characters DO still have rich white male privilege. They are still being racist, they are still being transphobic.
No they're not. Using different trashy words to make speech more humorous and provocative doesn't make one racist or transphob
Nikolay Davydov but not owning up to it does
Older gays just seem to not give a shit about what ever they say out loud. They have nothing else going for them except their bitterness
I can empathize with the struggles and progress that was made; however, these are two unrelated points. That will never justify being transphobic or racist. It could be an issue of ignorance, but that doesn't make it acceptable either.
U get to enjoy a gay pride ONLY because of them and lesbians.
They were so awful to Ben in this scene.
I think it was a much-needed scene -- it's easy to forget, even within the queer community, that there are levels of power and privilege, very different experiences. We have to regularly reflect on our behavior, and try to do better in the areas where we're lacking, so that we don't become like the men in this dinner party who treated Ben so unkindly.
Never watched this show before but i will start. This scene was great at highlighting black/brown men's reality that no matter your label a white man is always valued more in this society. It is particularly sad for white gay to ignore the struggles of minorities when they have faced discrimination themselves, but unlike sexual orientation race cannot be hidden. To ignore your privilege as a white person is to essentially say that you are ok with the injustices people of color face.
Luz Cannon this had nothing to do with color. You completely missed the point.
No you completely missed your privilege and the racism in the conversation. This elitist ass talks about brown people without respect refering to them in generic names and the this other man dismissed the black man's right to voice his opinion (ironically one of the freedoms he thinks he fought for) This man talks about suffering to someone whose people are still dying in the hands of racists cops. He lives in a bubble where only his suffering matters yes because he is white.
Luz Cannon I’m a person of color and LGBT. Please remind me again of my “privilege”. Very dumb things to say.
Replace the actor with a white person. The words do not change. That’s how you know it isn’t racist. This speaks of a generational divide, a split in the community over terms deemed appropriate to use in one decade and not another. That’s what this is about. So you’re absolutely wrong...and you’re also a racist for assuming my race based on my words and then dismissing them.
@@user-ke4kz3in9j like the person before stated you need to open your eyes. The lack of acknowledgement of current struggle (yes due to his race) by the older white man reflects him ignorance while he patronizes about past struggle to him. If it was a white man the scene would not hold this meaning because the insensitive elitist ass wouldnt be a hyprocite in a sense preaching to the choir about 'not being wanted' in this society. So while the elitist ass wasnt being overly racist towarsd the guy he did show all his privilege and ignorance by his lack of empathy for him. Also the conversation regarding latinos was definitely racist and its stupid to not accept that. Anyway if your defemse to people calling out racism is to assume they are is says alot about your internal prejudice and why you refuse to accept people calling it out. I really want to believe you are lying about being black to gain leverage on this conversation because it is sad to think that some of us are so blind and brainwashed to recognize the notions of privilege and race in this country.
Luz Cannon 1) I’m a brown person and fuck you very much for thinking I’d lie about that...how incredibly racist of you, to assume that the reason I would have this opinion is because I’m a white person lying (which I’m not).
2) the conversation was over the use of “trannies”. It was anything to do with the race of the young man. It expanded to an overall commentary on young people being obsessed with labels (which we are). It had zero to do with race. You’re inserting race into a discussion on verbiage relating to transsexuals and millennials. Insert a white person into the seat of the black guy (or Asian, Latino, etc) and this argument would be the exact same. It was about millennials and trannies, nothing else.
No empathy is needed for the language police.
And one more fuck you very much for being a hypocritical racist.
Gen-X here, Latino/Mexican, and I'm coming up on 35 years as an out gay man. What is called, "privilege " now, I used to call aspiration.
You are an inspiration, one of few who make George Carlin proud. Cheers to progress.
A society that doesn't care if we lived or died
Really?
You're gonna say that to me
A black man
Like I don't know how does that feel
(18 June 2020)
Best scene of the show.
I nearly threw up and wanted spit on my TV screen. So, the brown boy sitting across from this piece of shit, does not know what it feels like to be unwanted and hunted by society. MAYBE HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN HIS PHONE OUT AND SHOW HIM THE PICTURE OF PEOPLE STANDING AROND AND TAKING PICTURE OF THEMSELVES WITH PEOPLE BEING BURNED ON THE STREETS ALIVE, OR SWINGING FROM TREES LIKE ITS THE GREATEST SHOW OF THEM MODERN TIMES.
This scene needs an OSCAR!
I held my breath watching this scene.
Siding with the older gays!! Tired of having what I openly say being policed and being threatened with being ‘canceled’ just because of the delicate, dainty, tissue-thin sensibilities.
this show is so good, very powerful scene
Generation X and the tail-end Baby Boom fought in the trenches, and we lost so many. But the Millennial also has a point. We did fight for personhood and for dignity.
I'm reminded of what Kipling wrote: "Mock not the boar in his lair."
It was an interesting conversation but the delivery was disappointing. How can younger generations appreciate those sacrifices if your screaming at them? Eventually they won't care because the tantrums are exhausting.
Leftatalbuquerque fuck Kipling. Go through what we went through just to stay alive and live with panic and anxiety because you can’t stand to see another friend die right in front of you. Yes you e read books and saw movies over the AIDS crisis but you weren’t there and to tell someone that’s been through that that they cannot say what they want in their own home.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 marginalized minorities groups today have no business paying for the suffering you went through in the past. suffering doesn't grant you the right to bring suffering on other innocent people. You've earned your anger, but not at those people. Direct it were it's deserved, not indiscriminately, and certainly not at people who're still suffering today. They deserve kindness just like you did.
Andy Smith you do t seem to understand. I would never go into someone’s home and police what they say. You just keep your mouth shut, know where you stand and leave with an opinion. A mans house is a mans house and you don’t have to like it but you damn sure are not allowed to run your mouth and try and say what he can say. A) it’s not going to work and b) it’s not going to work.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 not allowed? Relax please. You can ask a person to leave your house if you don't like how they conduct themselves. However, this isn't his house. These were two invited guests fighting, and it was the other guy who became rude and offensive first. The host could have asked either of them to shut up or leave if he wished, but he didn't. There are cordial ways to disagree, and the older guy decided he was going to throw a tantrum instead by choice because he's an entitled huffy brat. I understand entirely.
I'm a 30-year-old white gay guy who's never faced discrimination or homophobia at the levels these old people have , I know that if it weren't for them fighting and giving their lives for our rights, my generation and the newest one wouldn't have had the freedom we have today. But that does not give them or anyone the right to do what was done to them. That is not why they fought for for so many decades.
And yes, he is a privileged man who is unaware of the extent of said privilege.
But we’re not speaking of children. We’re talking about grown ass folks inviting people into their home to have a dinner party and to enjoy themselves. This wasn’t a debate over politically correct terminology. If you don’t like what’s going on then leave. I mean can you imagine someone schooling you on how to act or behave because if the lingo in place these days? Oh no “ Mr. You’ve worked your ass off for everything you have and invited me into your home “. You can’t say this because I’m NOT one of them but I’m going to tell you what to say and how to say it Mr. White privileged man just because you’re white. No ma’am that discredited his entire life’s hard work while dealing with losing just about everything he had. There was no race or children. I mean he didn’t even have to comment on the people saying tranny. He could have just said nothing and kept his opinion to himself instead just being grateful for being invited. He want invited to change peoples minds and nobody asked him.
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 language matters and these men needed to be checked - if you don't then that makes you complicit in this.
Sihin Tsegay consequence?? By who’s standards should I/he be made to endure some consequences? He’s got the same attitude most people back then have that are still alive. Fuck. Everyone. I’ll say what I want and when I want. And don’t police what I say. The 28 year old knew he shouldn’t be playing mother. Nobody said anything to him about him.
Sihin Tsegay OMG thank you for articulating all my thoughts. This person before you obviously didn’t understand (or chose not to understand) a word you said. Lol. But thank you thank you thank you! I’ve been thinking about this scene for a while now and you worded everything with proper reason.
@@sihintsegay3868 Thank you so much for your words. English is not my first language so sometimes I struggle to communicate my thoughts properly or to find the words to make my point across. Especially in this type of discussions.
So powerful and amazing. Really hope it comes around for another set of tales soon enough
I'm a 74-year-old gay man. I've seen this scene a few times and I'm in Ben's corner. And please, cut with the crap. Obviously, the elders didn't learn anything from what they clawed "tooth and nail" for. Four decades ago, I was clawing, too. I wrote many articles as a gay journalist about job discrimination. For three years, I edited two tabloid pages of obituaries each week...without ads. I didn't do that clawing so that these guys could be as bigoted as the bigots they fought against when they were young. As Aretha once put it: R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
Disagree ~
~ Pronouns are not Identity ~
Disagree and you should be ashamed.
@@BionicBoom88 No shame here with my gay identity.
Authoritarian language & demands were why I was out in the streets protesting during the HIV epidemic in the 80's.
Call it green, yellow or red .
You can slice it or eat it raw
You can dress it up any way you want.
But an *Apple* is never going to be an *Orange* ... *&*
A Man is never going to be a Women & visa / versa ... Sorry 😔
@@BionicBoom88 What do you disagree with? Do you think that all older gay men are entitled to unrequited respect even though I knew some who used the ''N'' word and ''used'' younger gay men like toys. We made great sacrifices and showed great courage ,but as Joe E. Brown once said, ''Nobody's perfect.''
This scene made me so mad, I can't even begin
Because you’re probably too young to understand where the older gay guy was coming from. He was 100% correct. Even if he was a little bit of an asshole about it. Nobody’s perfect.
@@daphnemaxwell149 i get where he was coming from but as a gay trans POC Cis people shouldn’t get to decide whether they can say the T slur or not. I can appreciate what they did for our community but still criticize them for their obvious transphobia.
If someone tells you that what you are doing is offensive you should take a step back, reflect and most importantly LISTEN. At that point it doesn’t matter whether you are a minority or not because you have just turned into an oppressor.
@@paulirosa2075 - It’s funny to me because, I feel that SOME trans activists are becoming oppressors, by trying to muzzle other people in the community by calling them “ transphobic” simply because they disagree about certain issues.
@@daphnemaxwell149 yeah but using slurs is pretty transphobic
@@paulirosa2075 - This is fictional, please get a grip. Besides, what people do in the privacy of their own home, is their business. This gave you a glimpse into a private conversation (factitious) that was not meant for anyone else to hear except the people around that table. Stop trying to control peoples thoughts and language. You will never win that way. It’s also not your place to tell people how they should feel about anything. How people treat you and the community in public in terms of laws and rights, and the people who you deal with directly in your personal life is the only thing you have a right to be concerned and vocal about. Stop it with the controlling behavior already. (That’s not necessarily aimed at you personally, just certain activist members of the Community) Gay men of that era have been through much much worse than you can ever imagine. They had to hear slurs used against them on the daily. I don’t remember much complaining about it either. I know, I was there. Please give it a rest.
This scene was ICONIC
show was amazing! This scene was the highlight for me (gay Get Out lol). Ben was 100% right on all accounts though (love him). Just because you've gone through loss, turmoil, and anguish, doesn't give you the right to disrespect and devalue anyone. As a millennial myself (I'm 28), I get tired of hearing the older generation complain about us as if we don't understand what's going on...everyone wants to talk shit about millennials until they need help with their computer smh
Ajaymj88 the fact that’s what you got out of the scene means you don’t understand and didn’t listen. The point is the entitlement we millennials have to push for more visibility, push and enjoy intersectionality it came on the backs of those before us and while that doesn’t justify anyone being transphobic it also doesn’t mean we’re entitled to police others especially from a position of entitlement or arrogance. Millennials have got to understand there is a lot they don’t know about those who lived before them and not take things for granted.
Surely it's about intent... and the situation. If you tell me that in a personal situation between close friends (as in this clip) you never say anything inappropriate or use words that could offend someone if said in a different context, then you are either a saint or a liar. Doesn't make it 'right' but the holier than thou attitude of many millennial's creates more division and society reacts against it! Intent is so important. Everyone is offended on behalf of someone that might get offended should they hear/see something that could be offensive.
chadam813 here we go again with old heads tryna tell millennials what we need to think...I don’t care what anyone has been through. It doesn’t justify disrespecting others. Especially within our own community.
Howard Trigg doesn’t take a saint to show respect to others in your speech. This clip was more than close friends as it was their first time meeting Ben. Idk why people always want to find a reason to treat others like shit. It’s easier to be kind in your actions and speech than to spread hate.
@@2gatsuuga Agreed. Whilst it doesn't excuse their language, there are no trans people there, they didn't intend to insult anyone. But Ben was offended in case someone else was offended who isn't even there. They are both right in my opinion.
White gays are not going to like this 😂
Redst100 I’m a white gay man. What do you mean?
That could have been any gay dinner party where there is an age gap. I say this as a 55 year old black man. If you weren't there, you don't know.
FREELEOONE I dont really think people understand how terrifying it truly was.
Really though? "white gays"? Is that really what you think? Of course we're "going to like" it. These guys aren't representative of all white gay people, or even most. Do you really think most white gay men agree with these people? You're supposed to think they're trash, and anyone who doesn't probably isn't going to be watching this show in the first place? Source: am a white gay.
Umm, the term "down-low" was not created to describe white gay men...
This was very hard to watch. Well done Ben. So sad Michael didn't stick up for you, especially if he'd thought about the dinner party in the first series where he was in the place of Ben. This was such a great series. Loved it, but so wish that the story could continue (and I'm still feeling the lack of Mona in these later books and this series). ❤
This scene really stirred me up. Like... IS there a right or wrong? Is it all subjective? How do (and should) we have a conversation about this?
I personally try to respect others' opinions and try not to disrespect them but...this?
thoughts...thoughts
Struggle doesn't entitle anyone to become the thing they were struggling against for the next generation.
Well listening is key. For me though this struck a chord because of something that i have come to know. In this society a white man(no matter his label or class), his voice, his struggle, his life is always valued more than a man of color. The man giving the speech disgusts me as he hypocritically defends his slurs because he feels he earned the right to be offensive. Meanwhile he tells a black man that he doesn't know what it feels to not be wanted in society while people of color's oppresion continues. White apathy and lack of awareness of privilege is what keeps this struggle for equality going.
Yes, it is wrong to be transphobic, even if you survived the AIDS epidemic. It doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
@@luzcannon9753 periodt! Like exactly!
@Luz Cannon this was not about race. This was about gay men from two different generations. Gay men from all races , rich, poor, middle class, famous, talented, from all countries gay men were to blame. Simply based on your sexuality ( homosexual) you were blamed and left to die, thrown out of their apartments, literally crawled under bridges and died, committing suicide, just wanting to simply survive another day with no help. All we had back then was each other.
.fuc/< race. That was the last thing we were worried about. It was about our communities helping each other.
Bitch. This gets me every single time. Wooo. It totally takes me back to that time
I don't know... There are so many different tales to tell, so many different spins on the subject... It's funny, I am 45...But like when I was 5 or 6, and I knew the faerie tales of Snow White and Sleeping Beauty and I applied them to me, and I just thought some nice guy would come along one day and take me by the hand and lead me out of Small Town, Wisconsin... into a new community where I would be loved and accepted. And honestly, that is what the "rainbow" community says it offers: love and acceptance... But my reality... my reality, was just one superficial hierarchy traded for another. It's never about what is on the inside of you - it's what you wear, how you dance, your age, your masculinity, how much make, what wine you drink - I swear almost every gay group scene I ever see is a chorus of exotic locale namedropping and some gay guy creaming to another about the Beaujolais. In this scene, I can totally see where the senior member is coming. I as a person, would have empathy towards what he experienced. Yet, I wonder if his own experience-based defense is solely based on the AIDS crisis...or if there is jealousy involved? Jealousy towards the young man, his good looks; his idealism. Let alone the mature man the younger man is dating; their contemporary who may be happy. There always seems to be an "evil queen" dynamic that resents the new "fairest in the land". It almost seems the man who fought hard so others could live, is a hypocrite... That as several here who have posted, his becoming cruel in making his point... screaming his morays at another, it's just going to backfire in rejecting the lesson. Your lesson you hold close as does the young man - who was speaking up in defense, something that as an older generation, if you set in motion you would be proud of. But this isn't all on the Boomers or the Gen X'ers. It works on both sides of the generational spectrum. Millennials have no right to cancel the generations they disagree with, or be just as belligerent.
I am just glad this scene is giving everyone pause and for most, allowing the ability to discuss.
I can't believe there are still some people agreeing with the scene's transphobic and racist speech, I can't understand
Understand that there were no trans back then only drag queens
I agree with both sides, but using derogatory labels isn't on. I don't like labels myself but no one should throw insulting l labels around, and if it's done in ignorance, than get educated. This isn't about political correctness, it's about human decency.
EXACTLY
This is truly a great scene. Wether you agree with the subject line or not…it made you think and that’s what a great movie and acting does.
I first thought comments were praising Ben's attitude towards transphobia. I was happy. However I now see that they don't! Trans people have the highest ratios of suicide, being the victim of a murder among lgbt+. No past trauma or injustice can be an excuse for using transphobic language.
And as I see everyone here is about "you don't get to talk about it you didn't go through 60s" I feel obliged to state that I am a non-cisstraight person born and raised in a Muslim country where I've been physically and verbaly assaulted on a regular basis, lost more than a few trans friends and acquaintances through suicide and transphobic murders, have been exposed to merciless police brutality in many of our lgbti+ protests and pride walk attempts (actually it is currently strictly illegal in my city to gather for a purpose related to lgbti+ issues).
And one final thing: if I were Michael's partner, we'd be done at this table, I can't believe their relationship prevailed this.
right? I could never be someone who ain't got my back smh
I agree... I would have NOT gone back to be with Michael after this... TOO MANY basic differences... to be overcome just by good sex...
@@user-wv1yt agreed
"gay version" of Get Out :P
I don't NEED to call anybody anything I don't want to. People have lost their sense of humor about themselves and others.
The more i watch this, the more i side with the elder gays. As a middle age gay man, that woke kid had no right to say that. What they are fighting for is emotions, acceptance. We fought for gay rights, true equality in the eyes of the law, legal partnership. Not this woke entitled bs. And yes, if you didn’t live through the aids epidemic, pre gay rights, you really should ask first before thinking you can correct the people who made your world safer.
When an old gay man can give a times where hard speech
Because they were.
Each generation have the troubles but ignorance should not be tolerated even if you been through shit
@@FREELEOONE I want to hear the one where they chased him down the street for being black, and caught him and beat the shit out of him for being in the wrong neighborhood by mistake.
@@dlee9924 That happened to me in Upper Darby by mob of racist white people, and in South Philly by black people teenagers. I was going to a party with four friends in South Philly and a group a black guys decided they were going to rob us. Out of the four, I'm the only one still alive. AIDS claimed the others. Some of our our life experiences overlap. This storyline focuses on how recalcitrant those who survived the AIDS epidemic can be. I don't agree with them on point, but I understand some of it. I was there. If you weren't there it's difficult to understand.
@@latoddrickgardner3407 To sum up the AIDS
Epidemic to "troubles" tell me how little you understand about what happened to us.
So timely. Sick of the woke crap.
The real gays Fought For a Cause. This is very powerful.
الشايب كنه أنا لما أتهاوش مع مواليد الألفين 😅😂😂😂😂
one of the most honest scenes in tv I think.
Brilliant scene by the way. Finally you get to hear from the truly marginalized. You know, the voices of those who died from AIDS.
how do they have voices if they're dead?
@@HaNNi13aL stfu you know what they meant
Everyone is both right and wrong here. It’s fascinating
Ursa Minor how is the black guy wrong
Clicked on this cuz I recognized the guy from Russian doll
Indeed
Same. Glad I did. I need something new to binge on after finishing the season
i was like, i know him ...
Just because you have suffered and persevered through hardship doesn't mean you can then oppress others
Mostly you have missed the point.
He is sat there not having any life experience. They then tell of their life experience.
Which is death. Hardship. Pain
Whole note books of people's names crossed out due to hiv the aids.
How are you all not understand this scene.
How dare you.
Any freedom you have....wow.... You have no idea
I watched this scene earlier today and I’m still messed up from it.😢
Honestly, I understand where Ben is coming from, what he may not realise is that, every community, race and gender do this, they all talk about the others when they're with their own, sad but true ! 😔
No I don't. Neither does my family. That generalization is from your personal experience.
@@Meds1000MD I said every community, not every single person in the community!!!
I think he does realise it and decided to say something about it. I know this from my own experience but I don't tolerate it. I know I can't go to peoples houses and listen in if they are being discriminatory but people around me know not to talk like that around me. It's baby steps. You can be the change in your immediate environment.
@@reneg6391 exactly
They might... but they also should back off when called on it... NOT to start going off the rails defending transphobia
Respect on both sides must be earned, but sadly, the classism and internal homo/transphobia is here to stay. Both the old gay white men and Ben have plenty of room to improve.
It’s a little ridiculous that all Ben wanted to talk about was his race. Like he knew he himself was talking from privilege as well. So he goes to playing the race card to “earn some points”. Which is hypocritical
This scene felt to real to the point that I wonder how different those men were when they cut the scene. How many of us non-GWM have dealt with shit like this. I know I have.
You mean having white people tell you that 'you don't know what its like' referring to their personal struggle like if I dont have my own personal struggles as well as (unlike them) societal and systemic imposed ones?
I've seen this come back to race a few times. While the scene does have a a racial component, for me, it's more about the AIDS epidemic and the lasting effects it has had on all of us who lost far too many friends and loved ones before they even got their first gray hair. The hospitals, the smells, the funerals, the fear and rejection by family. I say this as a black sgl man who was 17 when GRID was the thing terrifying the community. The sentiment the characters shared transcend race and speak to a place and time, that still way heavily on the hearts of those of us who survived.
@@FREELEOONE So, closeted gay black men back then did not feel the same? This was about multiple components, and the disgust of the tone from the old crap talking about what was paved, and what he did or they did does not compare to hardships fought by blacks in the country. So, if you were gay back then did what did you do to change be black and gay. That must have been hard.
@@FREELEOONE it's not just the race thing. It's intersectionality and we know that different communities faced varied impacts based on their privilege and proximity and the activists who were the most pivotal to the fight against stigma and lack of medication who are with us today are the most aware of that. The ones who understand that silence = death do not silence others.
I loved this scene.
I loved this series...so like another one somehow with the same characters??? Pretty please
great scene very true i am gay and trans from the early eighties
the audacity they had to say that shit to a gay black man had me rolling....
what?
This needs a do over. I am not in favor of the Michael/ Ben ending at all. Enough with these dumb ass ending already. Yes, life sucks and can be shitty. Can't art be uplifting with happy endings for once...
Yesssss I can't get over the ending
@@devilwoman24 I'm guessing it didn't end well? I haven't finished the show yet, but I love it so far.
No? Art imitates life, and life isn't always happy endings.
@@janeryan2709 If art imitated life, we would have alien space ships over cities and blowing us away with their mega weapons.
There does always have a sad ending.
essentially what the writers are convaying and the actors are portraying very well by the way is that both sides are hurt and have and had theyre cross to bare also both doesnt know the reality of the other and the inability to have the uncomfortable conversation (wrong labels and hall you cant have an honest conversation in a safe space) has greated a divide that gets biggers with the lost art of conversation
Sure, but I think it really hit a nerve with me becauses it states the bigger issue that in this country no matter what, a white man is always valued more. His voice and his life.
@@luzcannon9753 If that's your lens in how your approach the world, you will always believe it.
I agree with the older men
I super appreciate this dynamic being portrayed on TV - I have seen this play out in real life with older white gay men who do not understand what it means to be intersectional and truly inclusive - they think "tongue and cheek" comments towards trans people or people of color that deny their humanity is okay because they are gay or belong to one marginalized community and seems too oblivious to the fact that they are perpetuating toxic masculinity and white supremacy...
A Ng I think you missed the important issues brought up here it wasn’t one sided. Both parties need to listen to each other the white guy isn’t wrong when it comes to talking about past issues
@@chadam813 I think you missed the racism and elitist attitude of the older men. All the men where gay so they could all relate to perhaps being marginalized but being a black man can be a death sentence in this country. So for the last men to assume the black man didn't know what it felt like to not be wanted in society it showed all his lack of awareness and empathy. It highlighted the fact that in this society a white man, his struggle, his life is always valued more than a man of color.
Luz Cannon I didn’t miss the tone of conversation it was reflecting multiple sides and issues, much like real life it can’t be over simplified into base camps of right and wrong. Being gay in this country can also be a death sentence for most of America’s history it has been. The older generation lived through that, it’s not hard to see how they find it insulting or a slap in the face to have someone younger language police them or try to reprimand them as if they don’t understand oppression. This is a conversation where both sides need to listen and it takes a tongue n cheek jab at how language policing and social justice isn’t just clean and dry and can often be disrespectful or dismissive of others even thought its intent is to garner equality and visibility.
Luz Cannon the point of this scene is to take on the generational divide. The experiences shared by those men and abuses suffered happened to them because they were gay and them being white didn’t save them from going through said abuses and experiences.
This scenes tackles issues of older generation being resistant to change or moral curtailing while also tackling a younger generation who often takes others experiences or tribulations for granted and dismissed them. The conversation is nuanced and complex and neither side is 100% right and that’s okay because it’s not about being right it’s about having the difficult conversations and hopefully hearing one another.
@@luzcannon9753 there was no racism. there was no mention of race until the young person left the house.
Ooh I would have fought literally every man who disagreed with my brother over here.
Literally same
Gawd how I love this scene tho it’s triggering A LOT
The “Rich White Man” couldn’t have said it better.
This is the f0ck1ng best scene ever!!!
I just found this masterpiece of a scene. and read a lot of comments. and I see a lot of people just missing the point.
as someone who has been supporting lgbtq rights for a long time, imho, I don't think the point of this scene was about whether ben was right or wrong.
I think a lot of problems whit how the younger generation go about today's issues is about how they approach them. it's confrontational. instead of trying to win others to their cause through acceptance, to normalize their life, they confront people harshly. calling them privileged, racist, sexist, transphobic.
at this scene, there are a couple of older people, raised in a different time and culture, having fun. having a good time. saying whatever, like when men talk big about their wives when they are not around. then comes in a new young man, and decides to educate them. call them racist and privileged, just because they are white, when no one was talking about race. at this point he just became a party pooper. and this made the others, defensive at first and then aggressive. he just lost a number of possible allies, and possibly turned them to opposition.
think of it this way. when it came to the LGB rights, we had shows like will & grace and modern family, which came around and said " hey look. gay people are just like us. we can laugh with AND at them like everyone else. no one's gonna call you a homophone just because you decided to include gay people and treat them as a normal person and told a joke about them." and won a lot of people to their cause. even if the jokes are bad. you specially should want the bad jokes. because other people also know they are bad. and slowly and naturally, those bad jokes will become unacceptable by everyone including the people that said them in the first place.
today, if you even dare to ask a question, let alone joke, about the TQ community in order to get informed about them, you will get assassinated on twitter, called a transphobic and probably loose your job. with each instant like the one in this scene, you have just created a stronger opposition. one which justifiably is afraid of your community, unwilling to accept or understand you since you didn't accept or understand them. and you gave ammunition to those whom are actively against you and win over more people to their side.
Easter Egg: Stephen Spinella, who references Angels in America actually played Prior Walter during its original Broadway run and won a Tony Award for his performance.
GRATA PELO ENVIO.
EDNA CARMELIA AUDINO PIRES
CURITIBA / PR 28 / 6 / 2019 - 7:06 PM
This is such a great scene. Similar to a scene from S1.
Yes, during the dinner party on the original series, John was turned off and offended by the "Gucci Queens" use of the word "twink" and he left the dinner and went straight to the bathhouse. Whew!
Because you saw Angels in America? (which I won two Tonys for!)
... and succombed to, and ent over for, capitalism.
Just--wow! Armistead hits it on the head again. And it's amazing and sad how many people posting here don't get it. I was there. I worked and wept, and we're all here now, but if I say the wrong thing I want to be called on it, and so should anyone who knows what it was like or what it is like now to be scolded for telling the truth.
I'm so watching this
I respect the battles the last two generations have fought for however baby boomers are the whiniest generation. They are bitter and can’t accept the world has changed, a change they fought for. We Millennials have it easy both cultural and technological but there are plenty of civil right battles out there to fights women’s right, LGBT rights, immigrant rights.
How about instead crying and complaining about my generation you join us and accept that it isn’t 1989 anymore.
Misael Villeda if you go and insult them right after you say you respect them then you’re a liar you’re also a hypocrite for talking about them as a whole and not as individuals.
Hopefully, when you're almost 60, and the world looks very different for you than it does today, you'll have that same feeling.
HAHAHAHA! No, dear. You're the whiniest generation (from a Gen X'er).
I'm a straight, cisgender, twenty-seven-year-old girl and I sympathize a lot with the young guy at the party. Even in my own generation, I've seen people operate in this mentality that if someone from a certain group is not around you can use whatever slur you want. I get feeling uncomfortable and some people wouldn't, but no matter how uncomfortable you are, you can at least try to be loving. You can try to use the right words and consider that people are people, despite differences, as long as they don't harm children, animals, etc. (just to make that one clear).
I'm white, but even when I'm around other women, and I should feel a sense of community, I'm not always safe. Some women will hurt you just as bad as a man, bring you around someone who will hurt you and they will have known it, and some women will never defend you. For the younger guy, he sees that other people of color would be basically tricked into fulfilling someone's sexual fantasy. We all have fantasies, but the other person is still a person. It, honestly, makes me wonder about how my own feelings and fantasies could hurt someone.
The guy who's going in on Jake is always plays the same character; he was in the film version of Love Valour Compassion in the 90's, where he was WAY worst of a guy.
This was by far the best scene in this series, imo. No offense, but I found all the scenes with the younger generation tedious and rather twee. And the tendency of the TOTC to dwell on melodramatic plot twists got old really fast in all the earlier series. I wish they would have featured this cast of out gay actors from the 80s and 90s more regularly in the story line. Or maybe a spin off is in order. There's a great subject here that needs to be explored more--the ravages of AIDS on the older generation of gay men so often invisible in gay culture and the culture at large living in a world that has already forgotten them and moved on. It's so great to see Stephen Spinella, Bryan Batt, Dan Butler, and Malcolm Gets acting together. These guys need to take their show on the road.
voltei pra assistir pq sempre falo dessa cena. Amo quando serve a torta de climão. Daí de repente vc tá do lado da Novinha, de repente do lado da conna. A melhor cena pra conflito de gerações
Bunch of triggered snowflakes in this comment section. This scene was handing out TRUTH.
BULL HORSE SHIT
kioku_shitaka except I’m a man of “color”, so yeah...you’re a racist.
Yes, the truth that the white men in that table where bigots.
Sanctimony is not your color....
Finally an lgbt film with actors who can act
Are lgbt actors usually bad?
They're not really acting that much
How can I get this full movie?
It's a series called Tales of the City and it's on Netflix
@@devilwoman24 I want this part of tge series. Only this movie.
So your angry because you actually had to work to get the rights that still aren't truly given to all a especially non white dude
من فضلكم اسم الفيلم بالعربي
إنه ليس فيلم. إنه مسلسل تلفزيوني. العنوان: حكايات المدينة
Wonderful series smart series I saw first episodes is an amazing series on LGBT
Gay version of gay out
This was so upsetting to me as a black person that I no longer want to finish watching this show. I'm so hot right now and I'm sick of people trying to elevate their horrific experiences to that which black have and still experience in this world. I'm so over this stupid s***.
Push through. It's aggravating, but this show really illuminates how far we have to go.
"a gay person"
I really wish he could have continued to go after them and shown how stupid they sounded. I hated this scene.
Yo can Netflix bring all saw movies on Netflix? Plz
The result of this scene only made both sides more entrenched in their own self righteousness. there was a version, with a less antagonistic old gay where both sides could perhaps see some of the others view... Ben dismissed a trauma which lasted 15 years of these men's lives while old gay dismissed the entrenched racism that anyone with eyes should be able to see encompasses the entirety of our nation's history... Sad
The topic of conversation was not skin color tho, I’m sure if that was brought up at the dinner table it would have ended differently
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...................
Would he have used the word if an actual trans person was there?
It's a good scene. Especially around 4:08 the white guy taking the man to school. As a young woman instead of going out & enjoying drinks, vacations with my friends. My friends all were getting sick, going to the hospital, then dying. Went to funeral after funeral. It was a horrible time for me. No can understand that time unless you lived it.
Yes, funeral after funeral, and visiting friends in the hospital. Terrible times. Thank got for the cocktail and now PrEP.
And that OK's calling Transgender people TRANNIES?
The best scene in the show and… it gets totally ruined by the end. It was such a powerful moment just to be thrown in the trash. This is why I have such respect for older gays.
It's so male older white humans there
I find the word "queer" offensive. Please no longer use it. Thanks
I feel the same about the word gay. It's never suited me.
Who cares. Who CAAAAARES.
Then you might not want to watch the show
Then you might not want to watch the show
Only "queers" get to tell us what language to use donchu know? The rest of us homosexuals don't have the right to be offended or self identify on our own behalf any longer. We are to shut up and be told what do.