Heat Straightening Introduction by Keith Fenner
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- Heat Straightening Introduction, live in public for the first time, at Stan Zinkosky 2016 Summer Bash in Rancho Cucamonga Ca. I demonstrate the process of heat straightening on the completed wright roller kits, during my event, at the bash. This basic demonstration, on heat manipulation is the start of a series of videos soon to be a complete collection on my tips and tricks in shaft straightening. ;{)------
I've seen old school welders using the same technique on all kind of steel structures that warped during welding. They, however, only used an acetylene torch, a bucket of water and an old towel...
Very nice video! Enjoy the holidays and keep rocking in 2017!
Keith, if you had never made this video, I never would have learned this skill. Your best line in the video is "The hotter section of what you're heating is contracting faster." That made me understand the technique.
We have all seen you do that before Keith, but a refresh never hurts. Merry Christmas
Great demo Keith. The way you explain things is really clear and easy to understand. Kudos.
Great pass it on knowledge,now lets hope another generation will learn and pass it on so the "art" of shafts is not lost.
Thanks Keith
Thanks for sharing this at the bash, and now on YT. It was good to meet you in person at the bash. Happy holidays.
Keith thanks so much . great to see 23yrs as marine mechanic never saw this .
Been waiting for this one for a while Keith. I never got to visit and watch your demo during the bash. I know the principals of your techniques, now I just need the proper spray rig. I'd like to practice this and learn from you. Thanks for sharing with us! Talk to ya soon!
we used to use wet rags, it didn't take long to realize it was less efficient then plain old compressed air. Never heard of atomizing water, we'll try it.
Abom79 I have seen you and Keith during a contest centering a workpiece in a chuck.... Next time you and Keith could straighten a shaft...👍
Great demo Keith, thanks. I have tried straightening plates before with heat and have had it work somewhat, but never with round shafting. Amazing how fast that worked.
Nice to see your sorcery in action. I wonder how many Oxy/Ace bottles are going to get sacrificed in the coming days :D
In case anybody is wondering, Keith's sprayer uses the same principle as a sandblasting gun. The air over the end of a pipe makes a vacuum and draws the water from the bucket and atomizes it. Pretty much all you have to do is rig the open end of a pipe in front of a blow nozzle and run a hose from it to a bucket.
Or buy an engine cleaning gun and throttle the water down to a mist.
You speak with passion and confidence and that is great Keith
Keith this was a really great piece of filming. The teaching aspect has a real interesting way of showing up the learned experience that you have. Many thanks for sharing this knowledge.
Thanks, Keith. This is a keeper.
Thanks for sharing your "trade secrets" with everyone.
Happy Holidays.
Wow... the master at work. Thanks, Keith. I'll probably never need to do anything like this but the concept is fascinating.
I just did a lead screw with mapping it every 4 inches and then did a Cadd drawing where I greatly scaled down the length (X) while greatly scaling up the height (Y). On the screen I had what looked like a factory roof showing the exact 'apex' of the bend. I placed it under a hand press with copper shims in the V blocks and under the tool and with the dial gauge directly under the centre. The secret to success was the bent screw representation in an exaggerated image on the computer screen. It clearly showed at what measure was the kink(s) and just how much.. Thanks for your great videos. Your own tips give us all another way of looking at problems. Sharing different methods and techniques makes life easier. I highly recommend mapping as I did to anyone who has Cadd available to them.
Amazing how confidently you handle the flame and the water around those sensitive indicators!
Keith - Thanks for all you do !! Love learning great techniques.
Très belle démonstration Keith !!!
Tu es un champion !
Georges
Very nice demonstration Keith !!!
You're a champion!
Georges
Sure do miss So, Calif. hearing you guys talk about some of my favorite beaches! Keep the tips and tricks coming.
Thanks for posting this Keith, I went to the bash and missed this because of the long lines to register. Thanks again for all your videos.
A great Xmas gift, thank you for this & all the other great videos.
Merry Christmas Keith and Vanessa. If was fun seeing this. I forget why I didn't get to see it in person at the bash.
The bucket on my tractor might have to get some of this heat straightening if I would ever pick up a torch.
Nice job Keith thanks for showing us how it's done merry Christmas to you and your family
A while back, this was a super secret TRMW & his Niche, glad you shared if AWESOME,
Hey Keith, just wanted to wish you and Vanessa a very Merry Christmas. Thanks for sharing one of your shop trade secrets with the world. Keep up the awesome work.
My pole is straighter just watching this. Got me chubbed up
Awesome video, and very interesting. Thanks & Merry Christmas!
After watching you straighten shafts, I tried it on a flail mower that had a twist to it. I used pipes, chains and jacks to "twist" it straight, then alternately applied heat and a water hose to relieve the stress in the sheet metal. A lot less precision and finesse than the work you do, but It worked beautifully, and it is still straight today.
Enjoyed this vid. Got to try this for the first time shortly after
building the roller kit last year. Trial by fire, pun intended. Took
.050" out of a 7ft-2 7/8" sawmill shaft. worked awesome. Need to make
the air/water rig though soon. :-)
Great video Keith, keep it up! If you're not already teaching, you should be.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Keith. I learn something every video. Thank you.
Good to see it actually done, I would have thought it would have taken a lot more heating than that.
I should find a bit of old shaft and practice that. The way my luck runs, I'll find myself at some npo where all of the workers (like myself) know just enough about something to be dangerous, and I'll get stuck with straightening what they bent, simply because I've seen it done, and no one else will have a clue on where to start.
we've done this on stainless plate after welding . Stainless being a poor heat conductor the results can be overwhelming and sometimes unpredictable . On steel we've done this numerous times to compensate for cumulative welding affects even on heavy tubing and got results.
Great vid.. Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday and be well my friend..
This is an awesome method for straightening shafts.
Thanks so much for sharing.
Hi Keith,
I missed most of this at the Bach, glad you got this out... ;)
Great demo. I have used heat straightening to save a lot of parts not just shafts.
Back in jr high shop I made some free standing shelves out of 1/2 inch square tube, all torch welded(all four sides of every joint), I cut and aligned all the pieces quite accurate however it was rather contorted after all the welding.
Used this method to straighten it all back out square and true.(before adding diagonal braces) No fancy spray nozzle though, just had wet paper towels. I also used a lot more heat, not sure it was needed or if more small adjustments would have sufficed, but I was making several degree adjustments at some points.
You are giving away all of the secrets!
And if 90% of the workmanship expectations flow along with them, there may be a couple people out there to fill my shoes. ;{)------
I enjoyed this and learned from it - thank you.
UA-cam just got around to deciding I might want to see this :) The guy talking about it not being on a granite has a point when it comes to sliding the indicators along the table. Sliding them down the shaft doesn't really tell you anything, every bow, ding, and dip in the table would come through on the reading. Using them as fixed relative points is awesome though, great video :)
The one guy couldn't grasp it so he was like "harumpf..." lol
He didn't understand the rollers being the zero's, figured you need a ground plate to measure shaft
It doesn't matter how far the base of the indicator is away from the shaft...
All that matters is the amount of run out once it's touching the shaft.
Keith is a good teacher ;)
Snoozing Lion He didn't explain it well. He is only checking for run out (deviation from 0 on a dial indicator as he rotates the shaft). Removing run out from successive points along a shaft should make it straight. He is not interested in determining the overall bow or twist end to end, that info doesn't identify where the problem lies.
kaiok1777 - normally he is "sampling" shaft at different spots, so it is straight at the end of the process (but it is too long to show in one video)!
He is "not interested" in showing whole process (ALL steps), this is left to the viewer (to figure out what's really going on/what's this all about)!
This is perfectly valid technique, don't you ever heckle/criticize it!
kaiok1777
He explained it as well as he could... It was rude for the guy to "challenge" him on what he was trying to show everyone... That was my take on it. Keith is a great guy who shares his knowledge with everyone. he certainly doesn't have to...
Really good & nice with clearly explanation, I'll will try.
Keith, It would be interesting if you covered the build of your air/water gun. Looks like a adaptation of a standard air gun.
Merry Christmas and Happy New year to you and all your Family.
Thanks for the great video's. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
i could swear ive seen this one already but as always thanks for the video keith
Rerun season
He did a video on this at his place not long ago.
I believe it may have been seen on the Live Stream at the bash.
There are a lot of cooks out there, Dave. Good video.
Keith Fennel : Interesting technic. I was very surprised, how fast it can go and how small amounts of energy do the job. A few seconds with the torch... water... next spot... Great!
Thanks for the lesson Mr. Fenner I'm going to work on building a gun and set of rollers. God bless
Merry Christmas, Keith!
well done keith, keep up the good work old chap.
The guy at 16:40 cracks me up. There's always a know-it-all trying to prove that he knows better than everyone else.
I was there, Thanks again.
Hi Keith
Thanks for the excellent explanation, think i understand now.
Hope your hospital visit goes well and you and V have a successful 2017
Sir, I enjoy your videos very much and am just learning to flame straighten plate and now shafts, please help me, how do you determine if a shift has a single bend in one place or a gradual bend over the whole length, I have straightend gates, pulley rails, steel fabrications with success, my greatest achievement was a flail mower shaft, 4mm bent out of line, my colleague said mo way could I do it, well I did, back to under 0.5mm run out, it was a great feeling of achievement. Thanks to guys like you giving inspiration, thanks a million to you.
You map the shaft first
you are the Ben Carson of shafts.
A big THANK YOU!!
I asked the following question on another straightening video but you didn't answer. Why do you tap the shaft at the end of the cooling? After watching this video and getting to see the indicators, I am assuming you do this to slightly bounce the shaft so the indicators will settle and give a more accurate measurement. I see the shaft moving a few thousandths when you hit it. Can you please confirm this or explain it?
Also, I had the same question that one of the attendees did about the table not being flat. Not being a machinist I had to learn the concept of run-out before I understood that you are 'mapping' the total indicated run-out. So, each run-out measurement is relative to the axis on the rollers and not the table. This means the flatness of the surface that supports the rollers and the indicator become irrelevant. You did state the rollers are "the zero" and can be placed at any angle, but I don't think the average person watching would understand this concept without first thoroughly understanding run-out.
Finally, when you described the process @ 7:18 you said, " that's what gets you the pull on the other side." Did you mean that's what gets you the pull on the heated side? Because it seems to me that the goal is to 'pull' the metal on the high side which is the heated side. And the flash cooling accomplishes this. Correct?
Yes, I did and yes. ;{)-------
Don, you deserve "thumb down".
Keith (as always) "thumbs up".
I will not explain "why" (it's up to you folks).
Thanks for the reply Keith and thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Nice!
That was awesome !
THIS is perfect technique to piss quality departments clowns (after two days "crash course" on metrology they think they're "experts"), they don't "get it" that you DON'T need surface plate to check things precisely. I love to crash their big-ass egos.
Thanks Keith!
I love to do that too! My Metrology course for my first MET Degree ( I have two not that anybody cares) was a whole month. I was the only one that could wring the nasty old gauge blocks!I usually keep my mouth shut until the QA clowns put their foot in their mouth and then I pop their balloon. They don't like me...I weld. I paint. I am at home in the machine shop (wish I had one). I MAKE parts!
This might piss of someone but not understanding Keith's simple setup has a lot to do with the intelligence - the natural sense of person for geometry and mechanics. I'm actually quite astonished that the old guy goofed on such a simple setup - rolling a cylinder while it's supported on 2 fixed points in space. For run-out fun look at the experiment that Don from Suburban tools did on the difference when measuring runout (actually out-of-round) on V-blocks with different angles - my equally college educated engineering friend could not get the concept through his head for a whole evening.. he was a slightly below average student.. my other friends who were above average understood the concept the second they sketched it out on a piece of a paper.
The US Federal Highway Administration has a PDF guide on heat straightening steel bridge members, it includes some of the history of heat straightening as well: www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/steel/heat_guide.pdf
This might interest you Mr. Fenner since it involves straightening steel beams instead of steel shafts, unless you've done that too of course!
W Bailey. My father used to weld bridge and high rise building girders. The bridge girders actually have a camber built in and it's done basically the same way. Heat a line across the bottom flange, and shrink it. move down, heat another line, rinse and repeat. ;-)
Questions
1) What if you're dealing with a heat treatable material where you don't want to lose the temper?
2) What if it's a big shaft and the shaft naturally sags in the middle?
Sag is sag, not runout!
Yes some materials you can't heat straighten
@@KeithFenner sir, can i straight induction hard shaft diameter 150mm?
@mahavir vala materials that are heat treatable and / or now need to consult with manufacturer of those materials
The gun that shoots the water mist, is it something you built or can be purchased? I had seen you use this in another video to straighten a long shaft and wondered how it worked. I notice that you do not keep heat on the spot for very long, maybe 3 or 4 seconds.
You can make up your own but easy do modify any siphon gun...
Many thanks for your explanation, whether this method working on stainless steel shaft ?
Hi Keith!....I can use spray gun for painting to use as a substitute to your water spray gun?
really interesting Keith. what size do you think the technic Peters out at. Also what about the larger hollow prop shafts ?
Merry Christmas all the best for 17 Thanks from Down Under
Will
I have straightened 12" diameter shafting the same way, limits may be on bend degrees but not on diameters. Tubing is different the hollow doesn't carry the same actions as the solids. ;{)-------
Did you mention to the guys why you always hit the shaft with the tip of the water/air nozzle after the cooling cycle?
I have in the past and during live demonstrations
@@KeithFenner Love watching your videos, someone said that you explained everything in simple terms, I think this is why you have so many viewers. Also, you have a great work ethic. Keep it simple. Gitter done...
nice crowd work K!
Very informative.thank you
When going between centers, doesn't the pressure to hold the shaft create a divergence of restructuring while the shaft movement is realigning.
Doesn't the shaft fall out of the center holder I'm guessing which is a lathe type of holder or does it use spring pressure?
Or is it too just get it aligned enough to put it back in the rollers.
Which are from where by the way.
He had the dial indicators awful close to the heat of course for the measurement.
But would it affect the dial itself?
Of course this is a rod, I'm guessing a shaft being larger diameter. Would he move them away while heating or cover them.
I tried this last night on a 7 inch diameter x 20 foot long hot rolled bar...probably 1018 . the last 5 feet of the bar have a 1/2 inch bend from the manufacturer.
I put the straight side of the bar into the lathe chuck and a steady rest 14 feet down near the area of the bend........heat/cool heat/cool for 6 hours and got the bend down to .350
I would like to see you work on a 2 ton shaft to see your technique.....maybe I was doing something wrong?
Excellent :-)
Very intresting! Thanks!!
Good
Interesting process, do you think this process would work on a lead screw, or would it be difficult due to the threads?
Smooth rounds are easier and pressing most of the bend may be best. I prefer to straighten lead screws in the lathe chuck, holding at X diameter and pull by hand in Y direction. rotate indicator off carriage and center in tailstock. ;{)-------
Tell MSC you need some IP65 indicators LOL.
Great Vid
Mike Stevenson When mine gets sticky from coolant, I rinse it out with distilled water and dry it out with rubbing alcohol. Good as new in less then 10 minutes.
very cool video, thanks,,
May I use it on engine crankshafts? Have to check it up.
After cooling the part, what is the reason for tapping the shaft with the nozzle? habit?
steven marsh could also be 'recoil'
Oh yeah I forgot to put in a little thing.My engineer asked me one time about run out on a shaft.I told him I'm getting .oo5 run out. He straight up asked me is that + or - .005.( I really wanted to say....+.001 to -.004...or a variation)I just walked away.
I love how ya say say "Time takes Time"I have straightened many shafts.(industrial electric motors). There is no formula.there may be a key way,thickness of the shaft,type of material,is it tapered,how long or short of an area you are trying to straighten,hell, the ambient temperature.I think he did very well with this.Ya just have to do it...and do it some more,and take and educated guess of what will work.I have yet to straighten a shaft(or shaft extension) on 1 try.My record is 2.
Thank you Keith
Keith, so you aim for the high spots with the heat, then cool it fast with the air/water. Does this creat weak spots in the metal, or are you just not getting it hot enough to change the temper appreciably?
Karl Olson wondering about this too. I thought heating up and rapidly cooling makes steel brittle.
Ever run across a shaft that is out of round? That could cause some difficulty, no?
Yes,an out of round shaft shows it's face fast and you can only straighten to the split difference tolerance. ;{)------
the shaft in my wilton drill press has about .003 TIR has splines running nearly the entire length how do you indicate a splines shaft
by just using the top of all the splines, between centers if no rounds are available. ;{)------
Ahhh got you thanks
Scott Tyndall's Home Shop Or make a small sleve and cut it in half. Use it between the indicator and the indicator.
might even be able to get a button tip that will glide from spline to spline and be wide enough not to drop off inbetween
+Scott Tyndall's Home Shop another good solution!
Thy rod and thy torch.
There are free tools on my porch.
To straighten, just watch.
⛈
what are those dials called?
Not hard to understand Keith . The rollers are zero no matter the surface ! Great show man , Thumbs up ..
Vanessa just couldn't stand not to be in the video...lol
Just saying! :D
Anyone know where you can buy those roller blocks? I would love to be able to measure and straighten shafts.