How to hand scrape metal for flatness
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- How to scrape metal with hand tools is a skill all machinist need to learn. In this video I give a step by step process to the art of scraping
Tee Spring teespring.com/...
Email .............. Dale@metaltipsandtricks.com
Instagram....... / metal_tips_tricks
Facebook........ / dale.derry
coreprintcasti... (This Link might be down. Try the other one)
coreprintpatte...
That looks like it took a heck of a lot of work, blood, sweat, tears and editing!
This was the toughest video I have ever done, I was working with a new mic that was horrible. I did discover how bad it was until I started editing 😳😳, but thanks for the comment 😀😀
Ayee the tot'ster!
Build Something Cool I agree with Tony! I appreciate the hard work you put into your videos, Dale. And it tells. I will say though you seemed rushed in this one. Perhaps in the future try breaking the process up into two or three days ? It can be a long process to get good results. Me personally I would prefer waiting longer on a video to publish than rush one out to catch up. Just my two cents. I love your content.
Hey scaliwag put my comment in your next video so everyone can know that youre a scaliwag btw my cats not working he only poops 1/4" -20 fasteners
Can you counter this video? Maybe another technique?
Wow, this takes me back 40 years to when I was an apprentice Fitter and Turner. In our apprentice school we all were given a cast iron table 6" square. We had to hand chisel it, then file it, then draw file it and then scrape it until it was over 90% flat (using bluing). One of our first projects and we used that flat edge throughout our apprenticeship..
I too am a fitter machinist and back in 70s did scrape cast iron block. What a dated technique, surface grinding was more than enough, and sure did a lot of surface grinding. Only ever did to scrape a press crank bearings. Patience is a gift as it took me a long time to get them blue up and running,and also tapered keys, did a few of them. All done to fit correctly on the job. Most time I think its not worth bothering with unless you are a tradesman and then only very rarely
My friends always wonder how I know so much about random shit. Well this is how...
Internet for good.
I was surprised to read a lot of (what looked like to me) criticism of this video in the comments.
I'm actually in the middle of scraping in a small Chinese milling machine & scraping in my own
straight edges. I thought Dale did a very good job on this video. I felt he should know I liked it.
Good job Dale. Keep them coming.
Thanks for your support 😀😀
If your not actually doing it, I suppose a scraping video is probably the equivalent to watching grass grow.
To the ones doing it (especially if you don't have a lot of experience) they are very interesting.
It's always good to have someone else's take on it.
I've been a machine tool fitter for 50 years and always use high spot micrometer blue, i'v never seen scraping done for size, it's always done to get the surface flat and feathering to get a bearing finish, i spent many years scraping bearings just as laborious as flat bed scraping but got more satisfaction from doing it.
Unbelievably awesome. I had never heard of this and wouldn’t have believed it if someone told me about it. Makes perfect sense how this works. Thanks so much for making this 😀
I kinda can't believe I watched this whole video. I just started getting interested in machining and don't really know where to start and this just excited my love for tedium. It's the little scrapes I like the best.
I just watched a 30 minutes video of a guy scraping a piece of metal. Quarantine is really messing with me.
No if your country arent familiar with scraping you could learn and make money and charge higher reasonably for sacrity of this type of work untill you have people getting into this industry.
True old school work that requires a lot of time and patience but the presentation was very well done. Truly a skill of its own.
Dale I normally really like your videos. The audio speeding up and slowing down makes this almost unwatchable.
Yeah its like watching a late night ad selling a cheese grater where they throw in steak knives.
At first I thought he hat auto tune on
I had to stop watching because it drive me so crazy!
Got to agree..Not liking it at all. Would rather watch a longer video
agree, very annoying
You've probably already figured it out, but the audio is dipping because the plosives are triggering a compressor and the compressor has too long of a release. Use a low cut filter to get the plosives out, and possibly raise the compressor threshold a bit so it's not so pumpy.
I have done hand scraping when I was younger and I found grinding flat and grinding lubrication grooves in the work was the way to go.
If the work is too large to grind, I send it out to a shop with a larger grinder. I like hardened and ground ways.
By the way I did thumbs up this video.
Seen a hand full of scraping videos including one at Vintage Machines and Ox tools Thank you for going through the thinking of what when. and not using a power scraper.
In the uk we do it slightly different tend to use curl strokes and put the blue on using felt pads spent 50 years building high precision thread grinding machines a lot of scraping for flatness and alignments. Hard work especially columating machine bases
I like the fast pace and density of this video, Dale. Lot of info. Keep it up !
Thanks for your positive comment ❤️
Hi Sr, my name is Luciano from south Brasil I liked so much your work. I have a very old machine and I trying to give her some precision, You gave me inspiration, thank you.
Dale thanks for taking time and effort on something others charge a lot of money for. It helped me tremendously and I have learned a lot. God bless.
I’m about to buy a CNC lathe with hand scraped ways, and I found this very interesting! Thank you!
OMG!!! WOW, Best machinist videoeo EVER!!!! Thank you you are amazing! I loved watching this!!!!! You are the King!!!!!
Absolutely fascinating. Seriously couldn't turn it off. I've heard of scraping ways before but never truly knew what it was. Your patience is second to none!
Hello, I did a lot of scraping in my day. Worked in a overhaul shop reconditioning #2 Brown & Sharp OD grinders. we scrapped in everything. Main travel table and swivel table, Grind wheel stack also. Learned right away to hip scrape a med. pass on flat side first to stress relieve before any bluing. You didn't talk about hip scrapers but you were working on a smaller piece. Also you didn't cover flaking for oil retention. We cut rolled crescents rather than straight cuts. It was a lot of work but once you got started and saw how you could move and split high spots and spread out the pattern and points, that made it interesting. We usually had two machines in the shop at a time and three men scraping. That was in the 70s.
For reference, could you break these two points down? And note if my guesses are on point?
> pass on flat side first to stress relieve before any bluing
Rub the piece to be finished on a reference to relieve stress on the piece?
> how you could move and split high spots and spread out the pattern and points
Control on dot counts/patterns?
I'm reading Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy and I had some trouble visualizing this process until I saw this video. Great job.
I'll write out the relevant part of the book for any interested readers. They say the first thing you need for mechanical accuracy is "flat master plane" which you achieve with three 4ft x 4ft cast iron plates that you use this bluing process to get flat. You mate two of them together and find the high points to work them down. But if you only did this with two plates, you could end up with a ball and socket scenario where one is concave and once is convex. So you need the third plate to reference both of those to which will keep them all honest. And they said each plate and it's built-in rib supports weighs 2000 lbs. Pretty wild and brilliant stuff. Cheers
Thank you for an interesting book reference on topic, those are always great.
Hole subject gone 30min and didn't even think fast forwarding.
You didn't go too deep in the subject and that IS GOOD.
Really enjoyed tour of it.
Thanks👍
Tool maker here. Very cool video, I think I'll try this when I buy some old equipment for my garage. I've used yellow for tempered/discolored steel, but I've never seen using yellow to contrast the blue. Very cool
Good idea to flip your work end for end every scrape to average out .... also be careful not to press down when rubbing that causes pressure points and false reading.... when I was 17 and poor I would hand scrape engine heads that's easier because all you're doing is matching it to the block.... and also you need to intentionally leave slight high points around each cylinder and other strategic points to create better seals with the gaskets filling the voids
Blue was specifically Prussian blue (iron ferrocyanide), which is both very fine and very intensely colored.
Thanks for teaching me many things I did not know.
I also appreciate those who contribute to refined and further knowledge in the comment section. This holds true to many videos.
The echo at 19:06 was great.
Yeah man haha
Dale, you seem to be on a path of portraying yourself as an expert on topics you clearly are still just learning. Nothing wrong with making videos of the learning process, however let people know this is the case. Be humble and let your technique speak for itself. This video is portrayed as a definitive guide to scraping, however it is apparent you do not have the fine motor skills and muscle memory that someone with expert levels of experience has.
I tried watching your video on scraping but I couldn't find it. Could you put the link in your next comment please.
@@Jeff_369 His criticism is valid, and makes no claim of skill for himself. Read what he is saying, he's not dick waving.
That's an affliction that the majority of youtube "how to" video producers suffer from. It drives me nuts how SO MANY how to videos are made as the person that is making it is performing the task being covered for the first time. That is not the case in this video as IMO I feel Jeff has a lot more skill in scraping than you give him credit for. I didn't get the impression that he was portraying himself or this video as a resource for professionals
Scraping machine surfaces is painstakingly difficult. The skills required are not attained in months and sometimes not in years. I tried it for a short time and it was way over my budget . A decent granite inspection plate is several hundred dollars.
I read what he said and understood it. If his video bothers you then move on, unsubscribe or just don't say anything. If you do say something calling out the youtube creator then be prepared to get called out yourself. Of course there are so many youtube creators that are just full of it. At least they are going for it and putting themselves out there. I don't know much about machining but I can tell you at least Dale knows how to build something cool!!! ;)
Been a subscriber of dales for several years. He has done some great project videos and tutorials in the past. This particular video, is a stretch and in my opinion is not up to the quality of his previous videos.
For comparison this is a master scraper, and a very informative video : ua-cam.com/video/EECJA2ZUVjg/v-deo.html
Thanks Dale, it is good you are back into the show & teach mode again.
Thanks
Informative I use Prussian blue to mark and I've had a small tube for years it goes along way, even got my old scraper that i made from a file when I was an aprentice, I've used the yellow making grease for checking contact areas on gears I'll give it a try. I've got a new mini cnc mill to give all the ways a scrape to reduce sticktation and maximise lubrication of the ways.
Great video but an audio fudge? Video at 1.5 speed? If not, stop buying the four packs of Red Bull!
I agree, it's something like 1.25x video with the "maintain audio pitch" sadly that really amplifies the pops in the audio.
I watched it @ .75 speed and it is much better. It also loses that 'caffeine' effect! 😛
Sounds like too many adobe audio presets slapped on like a piss in the wind or duct tape weld. Or crap equipment/bad file management causing downsampling somewhere along the way. Man is an excellent machinist non the less
@@maxpert9 It's crazy. It's like he doesn't care to spend his life learning about audio, and got it good enough so 99% are fine with it. Not sure what he should do differently.
In editing, detach the audio. Speed up the video as you wish, run the audio at correct speed. Cut to match length.
It looks cool after scraping. The glimmer it gives off is nice
Prussian blue was the first artificial blue pigment which had also a uniform particle size due to the fact that the powder itself is the result of chemical reaction and not of grinding some solid object. That was a property that led to use of it as scraping dye. Before that blue pigment was rare and expensive, (most expensive, I dare to say) and, as every ground powder consisted of particles of uneven size making it inappropriate to use as scraping paint.
Search UA-cam for “the invention of blue” for more details on theme.
I'm going to look that up
I looked up "Prussian blue" and found a lot of interesting information which agrees with what you wrote here. Thanks for letting us know about this.
Excellent, thanks. Took me back to my apprenticeship days - a long time ago.
so very valuable! tyvm for a wonderful intro to this skill/art!
Great information. Excellent video. Thanks for keeping up a fast pace as well. Much appreciated!
Great video. Admittedly not a skill I'll probably ever use but appreciate knowing the concepts!
Give your fireball tool guy a heads up. I was against buying their product but after your endorsement on the phone I decided to give them a try!
Great video! I've been working on my first real scraping project for my local high school robotics team. It's always great to hear someone else explain it in their own words. A few more concepts clicked in my head. Keep up the great videos.
Tim Mallard what are you building that needs scraping?
@@RandomNumber141 repairing a worn old milling machine
Have you come from a tool and die background? Your skill is rare nowadays. Excellent content---Thank you for sharing this!
Thank you in particular for the segment where you talk about how much material is being removed from each scrape. I did a pretty good search online and couldn't find anyone that talked about this to the depth I needed. (Pun intended) You busted out the dial indicator and measured the depth of cut and that is exactly what I was looking for.
I'm actually surprised it removes a quarter to a half a thousandth, I was expecting much much less.
Hi, I'm from Brasil. Your videos are an inspiration to me because here in Brasil we don't have tradition in scraping and because that is dificult to find tools and instruments to do it. Thank you, Luciano.
Thanks for your your kind words
I was taught this 10 years ago from a ole timer not many people doing this anymore 👍
If surface grinder wheel doesnt deal with the wear problem scraping is still important
Have done this, made 3 small surface plates. Why 3 because they are used to check each other to balance the flatness. I think its just easier to fork out the money in all honesty but a Nice surface plate cost so much money...
As others have pointed out there is some audio issues that are somewhat annoying. mic should probably be on the collar as it wont move as much.
This is an incredible process. I never knew until seeing this that this was a thing. It’s incredible how precise you can get it by scraping. I appreciate the knowledge. Thanks for sharing.
Talking of ink I've been at art school nothing into machining or so, and this process tho I kinda knew of it it's fascinating! Mesmerizing to see close like those lathe's videos.
What a smooth video. Very straight forward.
The video ...
the speed ...
the audio ...
the content ...
are ... just right! thanks.
I feel like Morty watching interdimensional cable
It is interesting how were made first machine tools in times when there were no machine tools?
It is an interesting topic to discuss
I used to ask the same question. How was the first mill ever produced, without a mill? 🤔
As audio technician, I want to give you some feedback on your lav-mic placement. Always place the microphone to the side of your mouth, pointing directly at it. Never directly in front of your mouth or you'll get excessive plosives as you have here. Place the mic such that it's not being hit or ruffled by any clothing directly to it's casing, in this case it would have been best to put it on your collar. :)
I had an antique lath bed hand scraped, very expensive but works like a new one, holds super close tolerances.
Very cool
Great video. Thanks for your efforts!
I find it fascinating to learn from old school machinists. Will I ever use scraping? Probably not, but it would be a nice skill to have.
I actually had a job doing this back in 89 !!! I was very surprised to see this video !!! Very difficult to get good/fast at doing this !!!
Look, a lot of comments getting into the weeds (and in a way, I guess precision machining is *all weeds*) about the lack of subtlety, but as a demonstration of the concept, an intro, this video serves the purpose very well.
Apart from some audio issues - I really enjoyed it! Nice work Dale!
Thanks for your comment. I’m getting a new mic😀
It's so satisfying to see a true master craftsperson elevating the discipline. What's interesting is that something very similar to metal scraping is done on huge multi-ton millstones that grind wheat in old-fashioned millhouses. A millworker hoists one of the massive stones up about four feet then flips it slowly and sets it down. Instead of bluing, he uses edible carbon on a sheet rubbed by a long straight beam of wood; this marks the high points. He then makes thousands of little raps using a small ball peen hammer over each carboned spot. He repeats the carbon marking and peening until everything is even again. Thanks for this video!
We use files for Kirksite. We would take the file blades off with a bench grinder, then get them precision ground in as flat as possible, and got the edges at 90°. Then we would take them and work and shape them from there with bench grinders to make radiuses or even venturing into hand shaping.
Very professional ie. TV show quality video nice work thanks for sharing your knowledge
Interesting to learn the steps taken to get a flat surface. Most of your viewers probably don’t understand just what you have done.
I like surface grinding the best. If you need surface lubrication grind in criss-cross fine grooves in the surface. This could be more automated with a Graver Meister type reciprocating machine.
very professional
Excellent video good fast pace there is a lot of information to pass and you did it.
edi malinaric
Aged engineer here.
That radius gauge that you are using has a 1" x 1" hole in the middle but the radii on the sides will be in mm not cm - a 10x difference.
Thanks for showing that slide hammer scraper. I hope you won't mind if I make one.
Happy Xmas to all - cheers edi
This is a great video, answered a lot of the questions I came up with my first scrape attempt!
Very nice video. Thanks
Thanks for the video, very useful and informative.
the OG machinist technique
If I scraped a piece of metal I would need to take it back to the surface grinder to get it flat again.
it's not for nothing, we would have nothing without it.
Why is this video so mesmerizing to someone who knows nothing about metalworking...
Might not want to forget the rules of straight scraping: 1. Individual scrape marks or points 2. Individual scrape lines (meaning the spacing from the line above and below the one
your scraping can not touch the line before or after, if they touch you will get long openings or ruts). 3. Depth of the scrape mark or cut. You went from high in the middle to a hole, that wouldn't be my goal, maybe should measure first to see how far you need to go before taking off in that direction.
don't mean to sound grumpy but I did a four year machine tool fitter apprenticeship and the men who taught us had a life time of mastery. Having someone with no clue giving a tutorial on my trade gets to me . RK would probably also agree with me
chris0tube q
@chris0tube Did I endorse anything? I tried to offer "kind, positive, constructive, criticism" I would not give Dale's technique shown here a very high score myself as I think he seems to forget a lot of Richards instruction. Of course I am no expert in scraping. Someday I likely will do some scraping on video then everyone can critique it too. lol
@chris0tube Until I get my granite reference surface checked no need in messing a bunch of stuff up by scraping it to a bad master!! Also scraping jobs for me are non paying so they go on the back burner. :-) I have 2 big cast iron plates and 6 straight edges that all likely need attention so plenty to do!!
@chris0tube 'everyone is scraping everything' ;-) Perhaps I should be glad that my trade is now trendy like knife making or whatever is next!
Smoke from an oil lamp has an even and tiny particle size. It is used all the time in fine gunsmithing.
Interesting. I didn't know that. You're responsible now for me losing myself in gunsmithing videos haha
Hey Dale, you put a lot of time into this one. Great info, thanks for sharing!
Orange is the opposite of blue. Red, Blue, Yellow are pigment primaries. Purple, Orange and green are secondary (mixed) colors on the opposite side of the color wheel.
Very nice scraping sir
So that’s how the Egyptians got the stones so flat!
Great video and accurate, I am a tool maker and had to hand scrape 2 bearing surfaces that were 6 by 6 feet, this method is insanely accurate but my gosh does it suck balls lol it is tedious and will see your fans hand and arm out, and hand scrapers are by far superior to air powered or electric, the more high spots you see with high spot blue the better, good rule of thumb is 50 spots per square inch
Scraping is not easy to learn and trying to teach it via a 20 or 30 min video would be very difficult , i think you got the basics across pretty well !
Its a bit like trying to teach someone to weld using a short video , they can watch them until they die of boredom and never really learn how to weld but give them the same amount of time with one on one tuition with an experienced teacher and they usually fare a lot better.
Hi Dale, you really make some great damn videos! Always very informative and educational with a hint of comedy. I really like the sped up format of this particular video. Thank you for the time you spend putting these videos together for us. I really enjoy chilling out at the end of a hard day learning stuff from your videos. If you would only move once a year, you could probably make a lot more videos - ha ha. All thumbs up for your videos 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
It is interesting how were made first machine tools when there were no machine tools
Keith to the rescue! :D
Mr Ruckers awesome. :)
People use blue and red,
Personally I use Stuart's micrometer engineers marking blue, comes in a little tin and o go through many!
I also take two inch wide rag, roll it up tight and put loads tape around it so only one end is showing, then that's what I apply and spread the blue with, we would of been strung up as apprentices for using a roller, but like you said every one has their own method!
There is something so cool about scraping... Why is it making a flat piece so obsessive?
Do I need to mention that I cant wait for my scraper and a surface plate to come home :)
Thanks for a well made video!
Finally a scraping tutorial from Harrison Wells.
the intersection of machinists and flash fans has to be pretty small, but that made me chuckle.
Blue, engineers blue, as a matter of fact, was chosen because of the particle size. It is not a particle but the molecule of a chemical compound that builds up to a colloidal particle at the most. It is not a ground mineral particle. You can spread it really thin and not make it transparent enough to make it completely transparent. The particle is from 20nm to 200nm.
Never apologize for metric if you are doing anything precision-related.
Dale, I always appreciate watching someone with more expert knowledge and more experience than I have doing a job like this. That said - and in the spirit of constructive feedback - I found this video very difficult to follow for 3 reasons.
The first was that your narration was racing along at high speed, while your camera was mainly focused on you, and on the actions you were performing mostly from a distance. When you did show those, the actual viewing of the action was very brief, and it almost looked as if you'd sped up the video. It would, perhaps, be easier for viewers who are learning to see longer close-ups of your hands and the tool on the workpiece, and possibly even with some of that slowed down during editing. What is obvious to you, with more experience, is not as easy for someone with less knowledge to understand.
Second point: you mentioned briefly at the beginning using yellow as a "highlighter." However, I really was not able to get a clear understanding of a) how, when and where to apply the yellow, b) what I should do to the yellow surface (or not do), and c) where in the overall process it comes in.
I was taught scraping using only two edges - one similar to your "60" and the other about 1/2-1/3 that size. The machinist who taught me used a very thin coat of oil-based marking blue (artist's paint, I believe), well rolled in. However, he taught me _not_ to attack the surface in long, deep gouges, but rather to start out with what would resemble a checkerboard of scraped & non-scraped areas. Then successive passes progressively reduced the size of the "squares," working to produce even patterns of high and low spots. With each overall pass, the "grid" would be finer, and the "spots" or "points" smaller.
Now, that may be a very old fashioned technique, and possibly the method you show is faster, or more effective - I'm not clear on that point. Where the Yellow comes in, and what part the yellow plays in your scraping technique was not clear to me as a viewer/student.
Finally, I realize that this is a long lesson, with many steps. That being the case, might it be presented in two parts perhaps? If you were speaking more slowly first as you describe in general what you're about to do, and then with your voice-over describing exactly what we're looking at close in on the tool and workpiece, at a regular or slow speed, ?
Although I have an engineering background and a good deal of practical workshop time, including having learned basic hand-scraping, I recognize that there is much more to learn about what can be done and how to do it - which brings me to the final point.
In editing this video, there is much "popping in and out" at various points in the process. The way in which this is done in editing is visually distracting. It also makes the "what is the proper sequence of events?" a little more confusing.
I appreciate your hard work and the large amount of time you spend in doing a video like this very much - I know it takes much longer to demonstrate something and make a video of it than to just do it. I offer these thoughts as a semi-skilled student, and in the hope that some feedback may be of use to you in making future videos. I thank you for sharing your time and considerable knowledge.
It is interesting how were made first machine tools when there were no machine tools?
Veel bijgeleerd. Goede uitleg
Good job sir
Really nice video sir... Keeping sharing such cool stuff
The patience is remarkable. Question, do most guys make thier own surface plates or can you buy them perfectly flat already? I dont need one but im fascinated by the precision. How much would a perfect plate cost to buy on average?
There are several grades of surface plates and the cost reflects the flatness. Cheap grade B (toolroom grade) plates are good for sharpening tools will sand paper and doing rough layout. Grade A (inspection grade) and grade AA (laboratory grade). There is an even crumbier grade, but it would be almost useless for scraping work.
The grade AA plate has a flatness of (40 + diagonal (inches) of surface plate squared / 25) x 0.000001″. The grade A is half that and grade B half again. Too much information? 😀
You can pick up a decent black granite grade A surface plate 12" x 16" x 3" for around $160. This stone will weigh in at around 80 pounds. You likely will not be moving it around much 😀The surface plate that I got came with an inspection diagram showing the flatness of the stone.
I read that good rule of thumb is to buy the largest sized grade A plate that you can afford if you plan any serious use. You probably don't need to go to grade AA, but it would be pretty cool.
There are also cast iron surface plates and even glass. Bring your checkbook.
I make wooden shoe lasts by hand. People wonder "why not scan the foot, feed the info to CNC and carve the 'perfect' last by machine?" and do not understand why it still has to be done by hand. Now I can refer them to this video as to why the human hand is still the best for 'fit' or flat. Thanks
The magnetic chuck is sure nice to hold parts. But it has the risk, to straighten out bows by pulling the part flat to the surface. So one has to be consider that using it.
Why we use magnetic holder to secure the work under shaping?
We can easily tell a new scraped surface from old by the standing metal hairs. :)
What would be the final finishing process after scraping for a smooth bed, such as a jointer table?
This is a thing? Dang. Lot of work.
This guy is the Bob Ross of machinist the paint was a clue
Seen you on Abom79's video on the Good of the Land Festival and then this video showed up on my suggested videos. Always nice to find a new channel with interesting content.
As far as I know blue was initially used when prussian blue was discovered as a synthetic pigment that had an exceptionally strong color and a extremely fine particle size. As far as I know it's still the pigment used to this day in most if not all spotting blues.
Please look at old machine tool beds etc look at the patterns produced in there original construction it’s called curling it’s why the scrapers are ground curved usually on an oil stone and hand made out of an old file ! It will show up as half moons in a regular spaced line and then at forty five degrees it will produce a finish that would be acceptable to the management also you can try back scraping a whole Duffy ball game my old foreman would have considered yours as paint scraping sorry .
You would like this video on Moore Pattern scraping( curling) ua-cam.com/video/EECJA2ZUVjg/v-deo.html